When trailers go bad <OR> How not to tow your Wright Brothers machine

[wright1902glider]

In my last post, I mentioned that I was curently off the airshow circut
for a number of reasons. Greatest of which is the issue with the
homebuilt trailer that formerly hauled my plane and equipment. Well,
for those of you that havn't heard this before, here's the whole story.

The trailer was originally intended to make (and last for) one trip
from Covington, GA to Nag's Head, NC and back. Nothing more. It was
also originally designed to be as small, light, and cheap as possible.
My original tow vehicle was a 4-cyl. Chevy Cavalier, and anything
resembling a "normal" trailer just wouldn't work. So I cobbled together
a bunch of cheap junk.

The rolling chasis started with a 4x8 bolt-together kit from Northern
Tool. The kit was then stretched 13 ft. by replacing the factory tongue
with an 11 ga. 2x3" steel box-tube. Add a pair of 12"x4.8" wheels and
tires.

The deck is 4'x18', pressure-treated 2x4s on 24" ctrs. covered with
3/4" pressure-treated plywood. Everything is screwed and glued and the
corners are steel plate braced.

The box was originally 4'w x 4 1/2' h, 1x2's covered with corrugated
roofing steel. This configuration leaked like the Titanic was nearly
unworkable due to the tight fit of the wings inside. I used the trailer
like this for my first show in Raleigh and my second show in Atlanta.
This configuration also proved nearly uncontrollable behind the little
Cavalier, which had neither the horsepower, nor the brakes or
suspension to handle the load.

Following the second show, I tore off the original box using a
sledgehammer. I then rebuilt the box using 26 ga. steel studs for
framing, and 26 ga. steel "5-V" flat roofing pannels. I also added a
45-degree v-nose. The new demensions were now 4'w. x 6'h. x 18'l. with
an additional 2' in the v-nose. I used the trailer in this
confiruration for the remainder of the 2003 and 2004 seasons, towing it
behind a rented Chevy 3500 Dually. It worked fairly well in this
configuration in the light winds of the southeast, and recorded about
5,000 miles.

I upgraded to a 2002 Dodge Dakota V-8 for the ferry-trip to Colorado.
At about the 2,000 mile mark, I encountered a violent thunderstorm just
outside of Byers, CO. Keep in mind that this territory is open plains
with nothing to break the wind. I intended to turn the rig into the
wind if I encountered a storm, since I knew the trailer was good for at
least 100 MPH in tow. But, two lane roads aren't very accomodating and
I had to turn broadside for 3/4 of a mile to reach the shelter of a
truck stop. Of course, as soon as I turned, a 50+MPH gust hit me and
rolled the trailer. Damage was limited to the coupler, left fender, and
left front corner, and 2 hours later I was rolling again. Thank you,
Byers citizens.

Since then, I've experimented by loading the trailer with sandbags. At
its max gross of 1150 lbs., its still uncontrollable in winds over 20
mph. There's not enough steel in the rolling chasis to change axles or
go to a tandem-axle. Since the trailer is currently configured to haul
my wings standing on their leading edges, ther's no real way to just
cut a little off the top. And since ballast doesn't seem to help much,
I'll have to concentrate on lowering the side profile. This means the
wings will now have to be transported flat, rather than on edge. That
will allow me to reduce the side profile by at least 1/2, if not more.
But it also means the new trailer box will have to be about 6' wide,
and the wings will need to ride in some sort of jig that will allow
them to be packaged and loaded as a single protected unit.

I'm currently working on various methods of accomplishing the new goal
without spending too much cash. I think most of the steel framing and
sheet metal can be used again. But I'll have to work out a new decking
system, etc.

Harry Frey
Wright Brothers Enterprises
Specialist in impractical aircraft and cheap junky trailers

[Jim Stewart]

wright1902glider wrote:


> Since then, I've experimented by loading the trailer with sandbags. At
> its max gross of 1150 lbs., its still uncontrollable in winds over 20
> mph. There's not enough steel in the rolling chasis to change axles or
> go to a tandem-axle. Since the trailer is currently configured to haul
> my wings standing on their leading edges, ther's no real way to just
> cut a little off the top. And since ballast doesn't seem to help much,
> I'll have to concentrate on lowering the side profile. This means the
> wings will now have to be transported flat, rather than on edge. That
> will allow me to reduce the side profile by at least 1/2, if not more.
> But it also means the new trailer box will have to be about 6' wide,
> and the wings will need to ride in some sort of jig that will allow
> them to be packaged and loaded as a single protected unit.

Never occured to me that a trailer would
have a max crosswind rating (:

[Morgans[_2_]]

"wright1902glider" > wrote
>
> I'm currently working on various methods of accomplishing the new goal
> without spending too much cash. I think most of the steel framing and
> sheet metal can be used again. But I'll have to work out a new decking
> system, etc.

What is the total weight of the loaded trailer, and what is the weight of the
tongue (at the ball) with the load on the trailer? You could have a balance
problem.
--
Jim in NC

[wright1902glider]

What is the total weight of the loaded trailer, and what is the weight
of the
> tongue (at the ball) with the load on the trailer? You could have a balance
> problem.
> --
> Jim in NC

No dice Jim. The axle is only 4' forward of the back end. Loaded tongue
weight is at the upper limits, usually 200+, but I've tried several
different balance combinations within the 10-20% of gross range without
any improvement. I don't think an anti-sway hitch would do much good
either, since the trailer has a tendancy to just roll over, rather than
sway wildly.

Good news though. A few months ago, I ferried the boat I inhierited
(sp?) from my Dad. 1500 miles from Louisiana to CO. with no problems.
The boat is 17' long, about 1,000 lbs. gross, and has a side profile
about 3' high. I ran on the same 12x4.8" tires that I pulled off of the
glider trailer, and didn't have any problems with 15-20 MPH crosswinds.
It did tuck in rather nicely behind the Dak, with the top deck at the
same height as the top of the tailgate, so that may help as well.


FYI: I've looked very hard at several sailplane trailers. But all that
I've seen so far will not accomodate the 60" chord wings from the
Wright machine. If anyone knows of a trailer that might, I'm open to
suggestions. Otherwise, I'll keep saving my pennies until I can afford
a 8x44' gooseneck & dually. Then, it would just be a matter of pulling
the front feathers off and stuffing the whole assembled glider into its
rolling hangar.

Harry

[Craig]

There are several good trailer threads on rec.aviation.soaring. It's
been debated endlessly ;-)

There are also manufactured closed trailers for wide chord sailplane
wings. You might check with Blanik America. They have a closed
trailer for the Blanik that has a 66" interior height.
http://www.nwi.net/~blanikam/ba/prod05.htm

Best regards,
Craig

[Morgans[_2_]]

"wright1902glider" > wrote

> No dice Jim. The axle is only 4' forward of the back end. Loaded tongue
> weight is at the upper limits, usually 200+, but I've tried several
> different balance combinations within the 10-20% of gross range without
> any improvement. I don't think an anti-sway hitch would do much good
> either, since the trailer has a tendancy to just roll over, rather than
> sway wildly.

So what is the total weight? 200 pounds does not sound like all that much on
the tongue.

Ok, I'm thinking out of the box, here.

Aerodynamics. How about making it more stable to the side wind. First idea, a
skirt around the bottom, lower to the road, so the wind keeps it sucked down to
the road. Plus, if wind can not get under it from the side, then it is also
less likely to be contributing to blowing it over.

Along those same lines, it occurs to me that this light of a trailer must bounce
a good bit. Does it have leaf springs? If so, how about some light shock
absorbers to keep it from bouncing. Every time it gets up in the air, it gives
wind an extra chance at the bottom of it. If the upwind side is bouncing up,
while the downwind side is headed down, that gives it extra exposed bottom
surface area and increased wind pressure on the bottom, plus making the center
of gravity closer to being unstable.

If the only spring is the air in the tires, a different inflation may make it
bounce less. If possible, mount the axles to a swing arm, and use some air
adjustable shocks and use the air pressure as the spring.

Now, really out of the box. Create an adjustable ballast system. Some type of
water containers, one on each side, and as low as possible. Enough water to
fill one container, plus a small amount for plumbing and an inch or so in the
bottom of the empty one. Plumb an electric reversible pump, or two with check
valves. When the wind is not a factor, keep the tanks balanced. When it starts
blowing like snot, fill up the upwind tank. You could run a few wires to the
cab and control it all.

This idea would work, without a doubt. The only question is if you want to go
to the trouble and expense to make it happen.
--
Jim in NC

[Bushy Pete]

I have two Hovey Delta Bird biplane ultralights and a non-enclosed trailer
that I picked up at the same time as I bought the first one.

The aircraft rolled up ramps sideways onto the trailer and clamped into
place and then the tail assembly disconnects at the back of the main wings.
The tail assembly then clamps into place reversed to the direction of travel
with the tail end up near the tow ball. The complete aircraft is exposed to
the elements. The ramps are at different elevations such that the rearmost
wheel (starboard landing gear) is about a foot higher than the front wheel
(port landing gear). This means the wings are at an angle that tends to push
the complete aircraft and trailer down while travelling. A decent sloping
roof on your trailer may add considerable downforce to help you handle the
crosswinds.

The single axle has three leaf springs, two as normal and the third upside
down across the axle from side to side. The weight is shared between the
springs. This is similar to the centre spring front end used on an old
Corolla KE10 from the late sixty's. The cross spring is quite effective in
helping to control the trailer. It is bolted to the frame at the centre and
the flat ends ride on a section of channel welded to the axle so there is a
flat surface to wear. The axle is held in place by the side springs which
are mounted with coupling joints like most leaf spring cars. The side
springs have three leaves and the centre spring has four leaves. I suspect
that about half the trailer weight is supported by the centre spring.

This trailer handles quite well and the second aircraft I towed 300 km
through a back road mountain range to get it home in the middle of a storm.
Although I restricted speed to 70 kmh for most of the trip due to potholes,
and 80 kmh for smoother road stretches, I did get up to 110 kmh for a test
stretch in calmer winds.

I will send a couple of pictures to your email address, and also to anyone
else that would like them, just drop a note here....

Hope this helps,
Peter

[Ernest Christley]

wright1902glider wrote:

> I'm currently working on various methods of accomplishing the new goal
> without spending too much cash. I think most of the steel framing and
> sheet metal can be used again. But I'll have to work out a new decking
> system, etc.

Could you make the box a triangle?

Have the side hinged at the bottom. Fold them down, attach a wing to
each side, fold it closed and pin them together at the top.

The sloped side should be much more wind friendly.

[wright1902glider]

Thanks for all of the unique thinking folks. Lots of good ideas.

Here's a link to my website that has a photo of the "rolling hawg
shed".

hometown.aol.com/wright1902glider/airshow8.html

I've been thinking about this a lot in the past few days, and I keep
coming back to the conclusion that I've got more of a height-to-track
ratio problem or a CG problem than a sway issue. From my rear-view
mirror observations, the trailer doesn't sway so much as it just rocks
up on one wheel. I can push on the side of the trailer near the tail
end and in 3-5 pushes, rock it up and nearly over.

I'd like to stay with a box-trailer with as few openings as possible.
The reason for this is that Wright machines are covered in raw cotton
muslin, and the fabric braces the wings. If they get wet, they're
toast. I think a glider-trailer setup with internal guides and dollies
is the way I want to go.

Jim, I had been thinking about the ballast system. The local glider FBO
in Boulder, who is also an RAH'er suggested something like this. But
the idea for the pump is the missing link. I can see it helping
considerably on the Interstates. Maybe something like a 12v bilge pump
plumbed between two tanks made from large diameter PVC. Sling 'em low
and to the sides like the external fuel tanks on a CH-53 Sea Stallion.
I've also thought about just adding a concrete-filled steel pipe under
the chassis center to act like the keel of a sailboat. All of this will
require testing of course.

Anyone have any thoughts on how much wider I could make the axle? Keep
in mind, the chassis is on 48" spring centers, using 2-leaf
slipper-springs, and currently has a hubface-to-hubface measurement of
60". I've seen heavy air-compressors, like those you see powering
jackhammers, rolling on 3-4' spring centers with about a 6' axle. But
all of the suspension components looked very heavy. My chasis is so
light that I'm concerned about adding too much axle and overloading the
frame attachment points, shackles, etc. with dynamic loads.

I'm also considering much wider tires. I've seen snowmobile and pontoon
boat trailers running 8"x8" tires or larger. I don't want to go too big
though. Again, overloading things with dynamic forces.

Harry

[Ed Sullivan]

On 3 Nov 2006 09:59:26 -0800, "wright1902glider"
> wrote:

>Thanks for all of the unique thinking folks. Lots of good ideas.
>
>Here's a link to my website that has a photo of the "rolling hawg
>shed".

>Harry

Have you considered the toe out or in on the wheels. I believe this
has an affect on the stability although I can't recall which is which.

Ed Sullivan

[Morgans[_2_]]

"wright1902glider" > wrote

>
> I've been thinking about this a lot in the past few days, and I keep
> coming back to the conclusion that I've got more of a height-to-track
> ratio problem or a CG problem than a sway issue. From my rear-view
> mirror observations, the trailer doesn't sway so much as it just rocks
> up on one wheel. I can push on the side of the trailer near the tail
> end and in 3-5 pushes, rock it up and nearly over.

Good golly , yes, on the CG problem. That thing is a lot taller than I had
imagined.

I have another insight into your problem.

I think the axle being so far towards the rear is a major part of the tipover.
You have a magjority of your weight on the ball. That is like having a bunch of
weight sitting on a knife edge, just waiting to tip over.

You seriously need to figure out how far forward you can move the axle. It
needs to be forward just to the point of swaying. If the load is even from
front to back, it should place the axle at 60/40. You look to have the axle
like 80/20.

Look at it this way. If the axle is 6 feet from the back, then the weight that
is on the back 6 feet, and 6 feet in front of the axle is using the axle to keep
it stable from side to side. All of the weight in front of that is sitting on a
ball, wanting to flip either left or right. More weight needs to be on the
axle! From your description of pusing it, the springs need to be more stiff,
or have shocks on it. Wider would be better, also, as you say.

> Jim, I had been thinking about the ballast system. The local glider FBO
> in Boulder, who is also an RAH'er suggested something like this. But
> the idea for the pump is the missing link. I can see it helping
> considerably on the Interstates. Maybe something like a 12v bilge pump
> plumbed between two tanks made from large diameter PVC. Sling 'em low
> and to the sides like the external fuel tanks on a CH-53 Sea Stallion.
> I've also thought about just adding a concrete-filled steel pipe under
> the chassis center to act like the keel of a sailboat. All of this will
> require testing of course.

I would thing bigger than pipe would be needed. How about plastic chemical
drums? If you used pipe, you would need to have a low point for the water to
collect for the bilge pump, or any pump to work.

A bilge pump would work very well. They usually have automatic shutoffs, when
they pump dry. All you have to do is pick which tank you want to be empty, and
turn that power supply on and leave it on. If a check valve is not incuded in
the pump, you would want to put one in, to keep the pump off after it transfers.
One pump per tank (or side), two wires going to the cab, a three position
switch, and you have it licked! For equal weight on each side, you would have
to time how long it takes to go from empty to equal, then use that figure to run
a pump and then swtch it off.

> Anyone have any thoughts on how much wider I could make the axle? Keep
> in mind, the chassis is on 48" spring centers, using 2-leaf
> slipper-springs, and currently has a hubface-to-hubface measurement of
> 60". I've seen heavy air-compressors, like those you see powering
> jackhammers, rolling on 3-4' spring centers with about a 6' axle. But
> all of the suspension components looked very heavy. My chasis is so
> light that I'm concerned about adding too much axle and overloading the
> frame attachment points, shackles, etc. with dynamic loads.

If you are concerned about point attachment loads, you could put a heavier angle
iron, or U channel over the existing frme, as a doubler. Make it long enough to
go about 3 feet past the attach points, and that should spread the load well
enough. If you are going to go to a wider axle, it would help to go as wide as
is reasonable, say a shade under 8 feet. Changing the spring fittings on the
axle to match your frame should not be a big deal, with a little welding. While
you are at it, move that darn axle forward, too!
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ed Sullivan" > wrote in message
...
> On 3 Nov 2006 09:59:26 -0800, "wright1902glider"
> > wrote:
>
>>Thanks for all of the unique thinking folks. Lots of good ideas.
>>
>>Here's a link to my website that has a photo of the "rolling hawg
>>shed".
>
>>Harry
>
> Have you considered the toe out or in on the wheels. I believe this
> has an affect on the stability although I can't recall which is which.

Here we go again! At least it is not toe in or out on airplanes!

Toe in for trailers, is correct. That way, if the trailer moves to the left,
the left wheel now is making the toe even worse, creating more drag, to force it
back in line with the tow vehicle.

I don't think that stability of this type is the OP's problem, though.
--
Jim in NC

[Cy Galley]

The over all width before you need special permits is 8 feet. Your thread
width may be all that you need to increase for stability. 5 foot isn't very
wide.


--
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A 45 Year Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot


"wright1902glider" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What is the total weight of the loaded trailer, and what is the weight
> of the
>> tongue (at the ball) with the load on the trailer? You could have a
>> balance
>> problem.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
> No dice Jim. The axle is only 4' forward of the back end. Loaded tongue
> weight is at the upper limits, usually 200+, but I've tried several
> different balance combinations within the 10-20% of gross range without
> any improvement. I don't think an anti-sway hitch would do much good
> either, since the trailer has a tendancy to just roll over, rather than
> sway wildly.
>
> Good news though. A few months ago, I ferried the boat I inhierited
> (sp?) from my Dad. 1500 miles from Louisiana to CO. with no problems.
> The boat is 17' long, about 1,000 lbs. gross, and has a side profile
> about 3' high. I ran on the same 12x4.8" tires that I pulled off of the
> glider trailer, and didn't have any problems with 15-20 MPH crosswinds.
> It did tuck in rather nicely behind the Dak, with the top deck at the
> same height as the top of the tailgate, so that may help as well.
>
>
> FYI: I've looked very hard at several sailplane trailers. But all that
> I've seen so far will not accomodate the 60" chord wings from the
> Wright machine. If anyone knows of a trailer that might, I'm open to
> suggestions. Otherwise, I'll keep saving my pennies until I can afford
> a 8x44' gooseneck & dually. Then, it would just be a matter of pulling
> the front feathers off and stuffing the whole assembled glider into its
> rolling hangar.
>
> Harry
>

[Tim Ward[_1_]]

"wright1902glider" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What is the total weight of the loaded trailer, and what is the weight
> of the
> > tongue (at the ball) with the load on the trailer? You could have a
balance
> > problem.
> > --
> > Jim in NC
>
> No dice Jim. The axle is only 4' forward of the back end. Loaded tongue
> weight is at the upper limits, usually 200+, but I've tried several
> different balance combinations within the 10-20% of gross range without
> any improvement. I don't think an anti-sway hitch would do much good
> either, since the trailer has a tendancy to just roll over, rather than
> sway wildly.
>
> Good news though. A few months ago, I ferried the boat I inhierited
> (sp?) from my Dad. 1500 miles from Louisiana to CO. with no problems.
> The boat is 17' long, about 1,000 lbs. gross, and has a side profile
> about 3' high. I ran on the same 12x4.8" tires that I pulled off of the
> glider trailer, and didn't have any problems with 15-20 MPH crosswinds.
> It did tuck in rather nicely behind the Dak, with the top deck at the
> same height as the top of the tailgate, so that may help as well.
>
>
> FYI: I've looked very hard at several sailplane trailers. But all that
> I've seen so far will not accomodate the 60" chord wings from the
> Wright machine. If anyone knows of a trailer that might, I'm open to
> suggestions. Otherwise, I'll keep saving my pennies until I can afford
> a 8x44' gooseneck & dually. Then, it would just be a matter of pulling
> the front feathers off and stuffing the whole assembled glider into its
> rolling hangar.
>
> Harry
>

Yet another clueless response:
Have you checked toe-out/in on the trailer wheels?
Tim Ward

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Tim Ward" > wrote
>
> Yet another clueless response:
> Have you checked toe-out/in on the trailer wheels?
> Tim Ward

Most bought trailer axles have no provision for toe in/out. They are dead
straight.

A big clue came when the OP said he could get one wheel to lift off the ground,
just by pushing back and forth on the trailer, and get it rocking back and
forth. Sway from toe in/out is not a problem here.

Wider axle, and more weight on the axle, and less on the ball. That is what is
needed.
--
Jim in NC

[wright1902glider]

Jim,

Skeerd yet? That thing's got over 7,000 miles on it!

I think you may have a point about the fore/aft balance. Truth is, I
havn't checked the balance with a set of scales since I first built it.
I've only weighed the tongue. That's going to be step one of the
rebuild... to get the balance right. Even so, the last balast test
involved loading 480 lbs. of sandbags in the aft end. There was a
definite improvement, but it was still unstable.

I've had another idea that the 2x4 wood framing in the deck could be
replaced by steel angle if I can find it cheap enough. I might also be
able to use a set of plastic "sprayer tanks" for the balast system.

And yet another thought. That I should ditch that Chineese frame and
just weld my own. HA! A bona fide excuse to buy a welding torch.

Harry

[Morgans[_2_]]

"wright1902glider" > wrote

> And yet another thought. That I should ditch that Chineese frame and
> just weld my own. HA! A bona fide excuse to buy a welding torch.

There you go! Now you're talkin'.

By the time you get done gas welding a trailer, you could weld up an airplane,
I'll bet!
--
Jim in NC

[wright1902glider]

Morgans wrote:
> By the time you get done gas welding a trailer, you could weld up an airplane,
> I'll bet!
> --
> Jim in NC


Jim,

A few months ago at EAA Copperstate, I had a chance to try my hand. My
beads were pretty lumpy, but the steel was rusty, and the wind was
blowing 10-15. I'm also left-handed which complicates teaching
experience. But I did get good penetration.

The rig I used was a hybred: hoses and regs were HF, torch was Lincoln.
Which begs the question: is an HF torch worth the $100? Or should I
keep saving my pennies? What size tanks would you recommend?

I'm looking at .120" to 1/4" mild steel for a trailer, and from
1/2"x.030" to 2 -1/2"x.095" 4130 tube for a plane or other projects. Do
you think the included tip sizes would handle that range? Can Lincoln
or Harris tips be used on an HF torch body?

Just wondering.
Harry

[wright1902glider]

Morgans wrote:
> By the time you get done gas welding a trailer, you could weld up an airplane,
> I'll bet!
> --
> Jim in NC


Jim,

A few months ago at EAA Copperstate, I had a chance to try my hand. My
beads were pretty lumpy, but the steel was rusty, and the wind was
blowing 10-15. I'm also left-handed which complicates teaching
experience. But I did get good penetration.

The rig I used was a hybred: hoses and regs were HF, torch was Lincoln.
Which begs the question: is an HF torch worth the $100? Or should I
keep saving my pennies? What size tanks would you recommend?

I'm looking at .120" to 1/4" mild steel for a trailer, and from
1/2"x.030" to 2 -1/2"x.095" 4130 tube for a plane or other projects. Do
you think the included tip sizes would handle that range? Can Lincoln
or Harris tips be used on an HF torch body?

Just wondering.
Harry

[Morgans[_2_]]

"wright1902glider" > wrote

> The rig I used was a hybred: hoses and regs were HF, torch was Lincoln.
> Which begs the question: is an HF torch worth the $100? Or should I
> keep saving my pennies? What size tanks would you recommend?
>
> I'm looking at .120" to 1/4" mild steel for a trailer, and from
> 1/2"x.030" to 2 -1/2"x.095" 4130 tube for a plane or other projects. Do
> you think the included tip sizes would handle that range? Can Lincoln
> or Harris tips be used on an HF torch body?

Best get an answer from someone else. I'm a woodworker, that welds when there
is no choice. <g> Then, my favorite weapon is a wire welder. I do know how to
gas weld, but I would need considerable practice to get to aircraft grade welds.
--
Jim in NC

[Ernest Christley]

wright1902glider wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
>> By the time you get done gas welding a trailer, you could weld up an airplane,
>> I'll bet!
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
>
> Jim,
>
> A few months ago at EAA Copperstate, I had a chance to try my hand. My
> beads were pretty lumpy, but the steel was rusty, and the wind was
> blowing 10-15. I'm also left-handed which complicates teaching
> experience. But I did get good penetration.
>
> The rig I used was a hybred: hoses and regs were HF, torch was Lincoln.
> Which begs the question: is an HF torch worth the $100? Or should I
> keep saving my pennies? What size tanks would you recommend?
>
> I'm looking at .120" to 1/4" mild steel for a trailer, and from
> 1/2"x.030" to 2 -1/2"x.095" 4130 tube for a plane or other projects. Do
> you think the included tip sizes would handle that range? Can Lincoln
> or Harris tips be used on an HF torch body?
>
> Just wondering.
> Harry
>

I've welded a Delta together with a HF torch, and everyone that I can
get to inspect them (and I ask everyone) thinks they are just fine.
Just keep the tip clean and you'll have no problem. Gas welding torches
have been around for over 100yrs, and there really isn't that many ways
to drill an orifice in a piece of copper/brass/whatever those things are
made of.

I wouldn't want to do extensive welding of 1/4" anything with a gas
torch, though...unless maybe it was the dead of winter. A TIG or
wirefed MIG are much more useful there.

[wright1902glider]

Ernest Christley wrote:

> I've welded a Delta together with a HF torch, and everyone that I can
> get to inspect them (and I ask everyone) thinks they are just fine.
> Just keep the tip clean and you'll have no problem. Gas welding torches
> have been around for over 100yrs, and there really isn't that many ways
> to drill an orifice in a piece of copper/brass/whatever those things are
> made of.
>
> I wouldn't want to do extensive welding of 1/4" anything with a gas
> torch, though...unless maybe it was the dead of winter. A TIG or
> wirefed MIG are much more useful there.



Thanks Ernest. If the HF torch is good enough for all of that plumbing,
it should work fine for me. Not too much 1/4" steel in a trailer, but
there is a little. What size tanks do you recommend? Size is an issue,
but the "porta-torch" tanks look a little small for any serious
project.

Harry

[Ernest Christley]

wright1902glider wrote:
> Ernest Christley wrote:
>
>> I've welded a Delta together with a HF torch, and everyone that I can
>> get to inspect them (and I ask everyone) thinks they are just fine.
>> Just keep the tip clean and you'll have no problem. Gas welding torches
>> have been around for over 100yrs, and there really isn't that many ways
>> to drill an orifice in a piece of copper/brass/whatever those things are
>> made of.
>>
>> I wouldn't want to do extensive welding of 1/4" anything with a gas
>> torch, though...unless maybe it was the dead of winter. A TIG or
>> wirefed MIG are much more useful there.
>
>
>
> Thanks Ernest. If the HF torch is good enough for all of that plumbing,
> it should work fine for me. Not too much 1/4" steel in a trailer, but
> there is a little. What size tanks do you recommend? Size is an issue,
> but the "porta-torch" tanks look a little small for any serious
> project.
>
> Harry
>

When I was heavy in it, doing lots of frame welding, I borrowed my
uncle's bottles. They're the largest ones that you can actually buy.
By Federal regulations, no one will sell you the larger bottles. But I
often had trouble getting Uncle's bottles exchanged until I set up a
relationship with a single vendor.

Now that I'm done with all the big welding, I think the little portable
bottles have the benefits of not having to lug around all that weight,
or losing lots of gas to leak down as it sits in the corner. I'll
probably settle on the intermediate size that the plumbers carry. It's
plenty enough to do something useful, but not a whole airplane, but
small enough to be fairly portable.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 02:48:31 GMT, Ernest Christley
> wrote:

>wright1902glider wrote:
>> Ernest Christley wrote:
>>
>>> I've welded a Delta together with a HF torch, and everyone that I can
>>> get to inspect them (and I ask everyone) thinks they are just fine.
>>> Just keep the tip clean and you'll have no problem. Gas welding torches
>>> have been around for over 100yrs, and there really isn't that many ways
>>> to drill an orifice in a piece of copper/brass/whatever those things are
>>> made of.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't want to do extensive welding of 1/4" anything with a gas
>>> torch, though...unless maybe it was the dead of winter. A TIG or
>>> wirefed MIG are much more useful there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Ernest. If the HF torch is good enough for all of that plumbing,
>> it should work fine for me. Not too much 1/4" steel in a trailer, but
>> there is a little. What size tanks do you recommend? Size is an issue,
>> but the "porta-torch" tanks look a little small for any serious
>> project.
>>
>> Harry
>>
>
>When I was heavy in it, doing lots of frame welding, I borrowed my
>uncle's bottles. They're the largest ones that you can actually buy.
>By Federal regulations, no one will sell you the larger bottles. But I
>often had trouble getting Uncle's bottles exchanged until I set up a
>relationship with a single vendor.
>
I lease one size down from the large tanks. Normally that's plenty of
capacity *unless* doing a lot of heavy duty cutting, thick welding, or
a lot of heating with the "rosebud" tip. Then you go through both
tanks in a hurry. Even in my small shop which is for my own use
(although I find myself doing the occasional job for family), welding
and repairing horse trailers, building fixtures for the airplane, guy
anchors for the big tower, I have gone through three exchanges in
about 4 years. So I use up about one fill a year. Welding the thick
stuff, as long as it's not upside down, it probably easier than
regular welding and certainly easier than the thin stuff, or at least
it is for me. At least the refils are inexpensive.

>Now that I'm done with all the big welding, I think the little portable
>bottles have the benefits of not having to lug around all that weight,
>or losing lots of gas to leak down as it sits in the corner. I'll
>probably settle on the intermediate size that the plumbers carry. It's
>plenty enough to do something useful, but not a whole airplane, but
>small enough to be fairly portable.

Mine are definatly not protable except for the two wheel cart and
could be hauled around in a pick up truck with a rack. That's why I
have 75 feet of hose. What I need is a 125 feet for my MIG welder
with the remote wire feed.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com