ASG-29 versus Ventus 2CX

[[email protected]]

All things being equal (delivery time, price, etc.) which glider would
you choose and why? Is there a performance difference, quality
difference, ergonomics, etc.?

The comparision should take into account 15 meter and 18 meter
performance, strong weather and weak weather performance.

[Marc Ramsey]

wrote:
> All things being equal (delivery time, price, etc.) which glider would
> you choose and why? Is there a performance difference, quality
> difference, ergonomics, etc.?
>
> The comparision should take into account 15 meter and 18 meter
> performance, strong weather and weak weather performance.

Obviously, to you buying a glider is a lifestyle choice, much like
choosing between a BMW and a Mercedes. It's all a question of which you
feel will give you the appropriate status amongst your peers. Since the
ASG-29 is a newer design, it automatically has higher status points than
a V2CX. Of course, if you one is willing to be looked down upon, spend
a lot less money, yet nonetheless keep up with Joneses in their fine
German machinery, I'd get a LAK-17A (consider it a top of the line
Hyundai). Yes, the wings tend to develop spar bumps after a while (just
like a 27), but even with the bumps, I was able to climb with and stay
with V2CXs in 18M and the odd reprofiled ASW-27B in 15M...

Marc

[Nick Olson]

Neither go for the LS10, or if you really want to be
different the HpH 304S, or really different the DG808S.

Would also suggest the JS-1 or Antares 18 - but no
15m option (but it's a class that will die off soon),
or if the rumours were true I heard a few years back
wait for the 18 metre version of the SZD-56 Diana 2.

[Tim Mara]

HpH Glasflügel 304-S !
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/textindex.htm
tim



> wrote in message
ups.com...
> All things being equal (delivery time, price, etc.) which glider would
> you choose and why? Is there a performance difference, quality
> difference, ergonomics, etc.?
>
> The comparision should take into account 15 meter and 18 meter
> performance, strong weather and weak weather performance.
>

[bumper]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> All things being equal (delivery time, price, etc.) which glider would
> you choose and why? Is there a performance difference, quality
> difference, ergonomics, etc.?
>
> The comparision should take into account 15 meter and 18 meter
> performance, strong weather and weak weather performance.
>

I think there are so many variables and subjective decisions involved, you'd
pretty much need to look at, explore, sit in, and touch and feel the ones
you are interested in. I found SSA convention is a good place to start if
you're in the US. 'Course it's good to ask on ras what owners or flyers of
your prospective ships think + or -.

A couple of years back, I read that 75% of new gliders were motorized. Don't
know if this has changed with the introduction of some of the popular new
"pure" gliders, but I suspect most new ships are still self-launch or
sustainer.

Since I fly a self-launch, I think I understand why this is so . . .

bumper
ASH26E
(4 years old with no spar profile issues, no gel coat cracks and no
reliability issues. If I had to do it again, I'd do it again :c)

[[email protected]]

The reason I was asking this question is I wanted to know which is the
glider to have to race 15 meter and 18 meter! Does one have a
performance advantage over the other? The comments on ASW-27/ASG-29
wing refinsh are troubling, but it cannot be too big a problem as I see
many ASW-27's on the score sheets and the talk of the 29's wing loading
range seems to have many buyers waiting for delivery (same wait time
for either V2CX or ASG29). The LS-10 is really an unknown as there are
only two flying. Also the cockpit size keeps my husband from being
able to fly this bird.

If you wanted to race both 15 meter and 18 meter, which glider would
you buy?!


On Nov 3, 3:17 pm, Nick Olson >
wrote:
> Neither go for the LS10, or if you really want to be
> different the HpH 304S, or really different the DG808S.
>
> Would also suggest the JS-1 or Antares 18 - but no
> 15m option (but it's a class that will die off soon),
> or if the rumours were true I heard a few years back
> wait for the 18 metre version of the SZD-56 Diana 2.

[Marc Ramsey]

wrote:
> The reason I was asking this question is I wanted to know which is the
> glider to have to race 15 meter and 18 meter! Does one have a
> performance advantage over the other?

May I suggest again, nicely, that if you need to ask these questions,
you probably don't currently have the racing skills necessary to take
advantage of whatever small difference there is in performance. Get any
glider that is comfortable for you and your husband, race for a few
years, by the time you reach the performance limits of whatever you buy,
there will likely be a new generation of gliders out there to consider.

> Also the cockpit size keeps my husband from being
> able to fly this bird.

If you husband is wide, rather than simply tall, the only options that
will likely work for him are the V2B/C or Discus 2B/C. If he is more
moderate in width, and long legged or long torso, the DG-808S and
LAK-17A will also work. If just long legged, the ASG-29 will probably
work.

Marc

[[email protected]]

Dear Marc:

Thank you for your comments, however, may I suggest to you that I
really know why I am asking the specific question I am asking.

I am looking for an intelligent unbiassed discussion about only V2CX
versus ASG-29.

[Marc Ramsey]

wrote:
> Dear Marc:
>
> Thank you for your comments, however, may I suggest to you that I
> really know why I am asking the specific question I am asking.
>
> I am looking for an intelligent unbiassed discussion about only V2CX
> versus ASG-29.
>

Go for it. Good luck with finding an unbiased discussion, there are few
things more biased than choosing one glider brand over another...

[[email protected]]

Why would a buyer who is putting up 120K plus be biased? We put up the
money and there is no return to being brand loyal. The buyer should
control. I have owned gliders from AS and SH, no bias only want the
best my dollars can buy.

So I ask again, if you wanted to buy the best for racing 15/18 which
glider?

>Go for it. Good luck with finding an unbiased discussion, there are few
>things more biased than choosing one glider brand over another...

[Udo]

wrote:
> Dear Marc:
>
> Thank you for your comments, however, may I suggest to you that I
> really know why I am asking the specific question I am asking.
>
> I am looking for an intelligent unbiassed discussion about only V2CX
> versus ASG-29.

I do not know if I can be intelligent about it but I try to respond to
your subject line. The ASG29 is in character very much like the ASW26
or 27 same airfoil. Since the 27 competed successfully in many 18m
contests, the
29 should do very well too. The cockpit of the 29 is the market
standard.
The quality and execution is excellent (but for the spar shrinkage)

The Ventus has similar performance and is admired by a lot of folks
around the globe for its handling and ease of thermaling.

If I had the money and the spar problem gets resolved (I understand
they are working on it) I would go with the ASG 29.

I fly an ASW24, but do not call me bias.
There are other gliders I admire but I tried to just stick with the
subject line.
Udo

[HL Falbaum]

Pilots come in all shapes. Measurements of cockpits can be deceptive, as
width depends on fore-and-aft position. You must try it on!

As to competition sucess, it somewhat depends on weather. the Southeast is
different than the Southwest. To be scientific, go to the SSA web page and
review all of last years 18m contests--regional and National. Then figure
the number of "29s and the number of V2s in the top quartile, divided by the
number of entries of each. This should give you the proportion of each
glider in the top quartile---The results should be interesting and
enlightening.

In strong weather---the 15m and 18m ships with high wing loading do well. In
anemic weather the 18m ships with lighter wing loading do well.

Good luck in your quest---I really don't think you would go far wrong either
way

--
Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF" USA/prev ASW27B "KF" USA

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Why would a buyer who is putting up 120K plus be biased? We put up the
> money and there is no return to being brand loyal. The buyer should
> control. I have owned gliders from AS and SH, no bias only want the
> best my dollars can buy.
>
> So I ask again, if you wanted to buy the best for racing 15/18 which
> glider?
>
>>Go for it. Good luck with finding an unbiased discussion, there are few
>>things more biased than choosing one glider brand over another...
>

[Marc Ramsey]

wrote:
> Why would a buyer who is putting up 120K plus be biased? We put up the
> money and there is no return to being brand loyal. The buyer should
> control. I have owned gliders from AS and SH, no bias only want the
> best my dollars can buy.

Because the "best" is highly subjective, and will change over time and
with future contest results. What is the intent? To win a regional,
national, or world contest, this season, or 5 years down the line?
Mostly 15M or 18M? East coast, west coast, somewhere in between, or
somewhere else entirely? How many hours total and per season? How many
of those hours are in contests? Fly all the time loaded to the gills
with water, or only occasionally? Who do you fly with, and what do they
fly? Cockpit safety important to you? How long are you willing to wait
for delivery? How much are you willing to spend, and how much more will
you spend to get things set up the way you want? Etc.

Right now, bias is pretty much all you have to work with. The ASG-29 is
the latest design from a respected manufacturer, which is based on a
previous design that worked well enough for lots of people to win
contests in them. It can carry more water than the last generation of
gliders, so it will likely outrun most everything on those 10 knot days.
If money, delivery time, pilot size, and the possibility of having to
pay to reprofile bumpy wings are not issues to you, then it would be
silly to order anything else at this moment. If I were in that
position, I'd have put in my order in the day it was announced...

[Jim Hultman]

Hey Marc,
Finally you've posted an intelligent reply to her original question, instead
of running her down for having more $$ than you.
Good Job!
Jim
"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
.. .
> wrote:
> > Why would a buyer who is putting up 120K plus be biased? We put up the
> > money and there is no return to being brand loyal. The buyer should
> > control. I have owned gliders from AS and SH, no bias only want the
> > best my dollars can buy.
>
> Because the "best" is highly subjective, and will change over time and
> with future contest results. What is the intent? To win a regional,
> national, or world contest, this season, or 5 years down the line?
> Mostly 15M or 18M? East coast, west coast, somewhere in between, or
> somewhere else entirely? How many hours total and per season? How many
> of those hours are in contests? Fly all the time loaded to the gills
> with water, or only occasionally? Who do you fly with, and what do they
> fly? Cockpit safety important to you? How long are you willing to wait
> for delivery? How much are you willing to spend, and how much more will
> you spend to get things set up the way you want? Etc.
>
> Right now, bias is pretty much all you have to work with. The ASG-29 is
> the latest design from a respected manufacturer, which is based on a
> previous design that worked well enough for lots of people to win
> contests in them. It can carry more water than the last generation of
> gliders, so it will likely outrun most everything on those 10 knot days.
> If money, delivery time, pilot size, and the possibility of having to
> pay to reprofile bumpy wings are not issues to you, then it would be
> silly to order anything else at this moment. If I were in that
> position, I'd have put in my order in the day it was announced...
>

[Jim Hultman]

Sorry that I haven't good information for you on the differences between
ASG-29 & Ventus 2CX.
I am very curious as to the ASG-29 warrantee regarding spar cap as described
in recent posts.How do U.S. buyers protect themselves from such
manufacturing blunders? I've read many posts on this R.A.S. newsgroup
concerning improperly profiled wings on earlier European sailplanes & am
wondering if & how manufacturers are held to account.
Very Best Regards,
Jim Hultman
Santa Barbara

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> All things being equal (delivery time, price, etc.) which glider would
> you choose and why? Is there a performance difference, quality
> difference, ergonomics, etc.?
>
> The comparision should take into account 15 meter and 18 meter
> performance, strong weather and weak weather performance.
>

[Marc Ramsey]

Jim Hultman wrote:
> Hey Marc,
> Finally you've posted an intelligent reply to her original question, instead
> of running her down for having more $$ than you.

Who was running her down? I buy the prettiest glider I can fit into,
with the bucks that I have, just like almost everyone else. If she
hasn't figured that out yet, endlessly posting the same questions isn't
going to get her an answer...

Marc

[Marc Ramsey]

Jim Hultman wrote:
> Hey Marc,
> Finally you've posted an intelligent reply to her original question, instead
> of running her down for having more $$ than you.

Who was running her down? I buy the prettiest glider I can fit into,
with the bucks that I have, just like almost everyone else. If she
hasn't figured that out yet, endlessly posting the same questions isn't
going to get her an answer...

Marc

[Robert Danewid]

I have spent some time in both V2ct and ASG29. I am BIG (too
big). The 29 cockpit is more roomy and comfortable than the
V2. I like the flying characteristics of the Schleicher
gliders, I am not that fond of the SH gliders, so I would
choose an ASG29 (it is also more beautiful in my opinion).

At the recent WGC in Sweden where I was the CD it was quite
clear that they have the same performance. The Jones
brothers and Wolfganf J are good pilots!

Robert

wrote:
> The reason I was asking this question is I wanted to know which is the
> glider to have to race 15 meter and 18 meter! Does one have a
> performance advantage over the other? The comments on ASW-27/ASG-29
> wing refinsh are troubling, but it cannot be too big a problem as I see
> many ASW-27's on the score sheets and the talk of the 29's wing loading
> range seems to have many buyers waiting for delivery (same wait time
> for either V2CX or ASG29). The LS-10 is really an unknown as there are
> only two flying. Also the cockpit size keeps my husband from being
> able to fly this bird.
>
> If you wanted to race both 15 meter and 18 meter, which glider would
> you buy?!
>
>
> On Nov 3, 3:17 pm, Nick Olson >
> wrote:
>
>>Neither go for the LS10, or if you really want to be
>>different the HpH 304S, or really different the DG808S.
>>
>>Would also suggest the JS-1 or Antares 18 - but no
>>15m option (but it's a class that will die off soon),
>>or if the rumours were true I heard a few years back
>>wait for the 18 metre version of the SZD-56 Diana 2.
>
>

[UFO]

wrote:
> Why would a buyer who is putting up 120K plus be biased? We put up the
> money and there is no return to being brand loyal. The buyer should
> control. I have owned gliders from AS and SH, no bias only want the
> best my dollars can buy.
>
> So I ask again, if you wanted to buy the best for racing 15/18 which
> glider?
>
> >Go for it. Good luck with finding an unbiased discussion, there are few
> >things more biased than choosing one glider brand over another...

[UFO]

It's not likely that you will be able to get both sides of the story
from 1 single individual on this request because most people who can
afford to by an 18 meter motor glider are conservative by nature; once
they find something they like, they stick to it. (Me a
conservative....Who Knew?) Only a few of us can afford to have both a
ASG 29 and a V2cx. It is common knowledge who's gliders wings change
shape shortly after delivery and who's don't.

I have a V2cxm. It is my 3rd Ventus motor glider, in a row. Vcm,
V2cm and V2cxm. So I have experienced the "aerodynamic evolution"
on the Ventus 18 meter line. From my perspective the VcM ran very well
and she could climb once I learned her nuances but climbing was an
acquired skill which took me a while, a very pleasurable while I might
say.... The V2c climbed like a homesick angle hands off, however my
impression was that the run was slightly sacrificed for the climb
because of the diverging lift vectors at the tip with all that
dihedral. Now they really got right with the V2cx... She climbs AND
she runs, with sweet control harmony on all axis.

Thanks my experience with the Ventus line.....

What's great is that it's a self launcher too....Well isn't that
CONVENIENT...

The ASG looks impressive, I stood by the runway at Ionia as Rudy
Mosher landed next to me and it was the prettiest slowest, shortest
land I can recall. Very nice....

John Sullivan UFO
..

[bumper]

"UFO" > wrote in message
ups.com...
It is common knowledge who's gliders wings change
> shape shortly after delivery and who's don't.
>
>
> John Sullivan UFO
> .
>

While I didn't know about this when I ordered my ship 5 years ago, some
purchasers have insisted the manufacturer oven cure the wings a second time,
this to help insure the wing profile has a better chance of remaining
constant post delivery.

My ASH26E wings show no signs of change and there no cracks either even with
climbs high into Sierra wave (though cracking doesn't seem to be the issue
on AS ships that it has been on some others).

bumper

Proudly saving up for a new Wankel engine (should that ever be needed) by
selling five dollar Quit Vent kits and MKII yaw strings to millions of
glider pilots everywhere (g).

[[email protected]]

Bumper, the ASH-26 wing is dry. As I understand teh problem is when
you fill the 27 or 29's wings with water. Schempp has been building
wet wings for many generations of gliders, while AS is somewhat new to
wet wing construction.

On Nov 4, 10:02 am, "bumper" > wrote:
> "UFO" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
> It is common knowledge who's gliders wings change
>
> > shape shortly after delivery and who's don't.
>
> > John Sullivan UFO
> > .While I didn't know about this when I ordered my ship 5 years ago, some
> purchasers have insisted the manufacturer oven cure the wings a second time,
> this to help insure the wing profile has a better chance of remaining
> constant post delivery.
>
> My ASH26E wings show no signs of change and there no cracks either even with
> climbs high into Sierra wave (though cracking doesn't seem to be the issue
> on AS ships that it has been on some others).
>
> bumper
>
> Proudly saving up for a new Wankel engine (should that ever be needed) by
> selling five dollar Quit Vent kits and MKII yaw strings to millions of
> glider pilots everywhere (g).

[Robert Danewid]

I have never heard of or seen this problem, so I am
interested, especially as I take delivery of a new ASW28-18E
next week. In another message someone wrote that this
problem did not affect the ASW28. But as far as I know the
28 was the first Schleicher glider with integral tanks, then
came the 27B and then the 29. Does not make sense.

A good friend of mine (former world champion Göran Ax) has a
10 year old 27 with beautiful wings and according to the
reigning world champ Janusz Centka his 27 is the only glider
that can outrun the Diana 2.

Robert


wrote:
> Bumper, the ASH-26 wing is dry. As I understand teh problem is when
> you fill the 27 or 29's wings with water. Schempp has been building
> wet wings for many generations of gliders, while AS is somewhat new to
> wet wing construction.
>
> On Nov 4, 10:02 am, "bumper" > wrote:
>
>>"UFO" > wrote in oglegroups.com...
>>It is common knowledge who's gliders wings change
>>
>>
>>>shape shortly after delivery and who's don't.
>>
>>>John Sullivan UFO
>>>.While I didn't know about this when I ordered my ship 5 years ago, some
>>
>>purchasers have insisted the manufacturer oven cure the wings a second time,
>>this to help insure the wing profile has a better chance of remaining
>>constant post delivery.
>>
>>My ASH26E wings show no signs of change and there no cracks either even with
>>climbs high into Sierra wave (though cracking doesn't seem to be the issue
>>on AS ships that it has been on some others).
>>
>>bumper
>>
>>Proudly saving up for a new Wankel engine (should that ever be needed) by
>>selling five dollar Quit Vent kits and MKII yaw strings to millions of
>>glider pilots everywhere (g).
>
>

[Stewart Kissel]

At 02:24 04 November 2006, wrote:
Why would a buyer who is putting up 120K plus be biased?

Hmm, for starters he/she may feel for that much dough...they
made the right decision. Sorta like the process you
are taking. However every ship and every pilot is
different...so the subjectivity of this subject makes
it far from a black-and-white issue. What if you decide
after hours and hours of analysis...that the Ventus
is better?

And some day during a side-by-side glide, the 29 goes
by you?

Or vice-versa. No 2 ships come out of the factory
the same, and every pilot has there own nuances that
may fit one ship better. Plus the fact you are dealing
with a verrrrrrrrrrry small data-base.
How many pilots have flown both? With identical conditions
and telemetry to tell them the actual performance?


So assuming this is not a troll, my suggestion would
be...for the money you are spending...go visit both
factories, at minimum sit in the glider, preferably
fly both....many flights in different conditions, of
course this not being practical.

If you or the hubby are the engineering type....the
solution you are looking for does not exist...you will
not get empirical data to give you a definitive answer.

[Stewart Kissel]

At 02:24 04 November 2006, wrote:
Why would a buyer who is putting up 120K plus be biased?

Hmm, for starters he/she may feel for that much dough...they
made the right decision. Sorta like the process you
are taking. However every ship and every pilot is
different...so the subjectivity of this subject makes
it far from a black-and-white issue. What if you decide
after hours and hours of analysis...that the Ventus
is better?

And some day during a side-by-side glide, the 29 goes
by you?

Or vice-versa. No 2 ships come out of the factory
the same, and every pilot has there own nuances that
may fit one ship better. Plus the fact you are dealing
with a verrrrrrrrrrry small data-base.
How many pilots have flown both? With identical conditions
and telemetry to tell them the actual performance?


So assuming this is not a troll, my suggestion would
be...for the money you are spending...go visit both
factories, at minimum sit in the glider, preferably
fly both....many flights in different conditions, of
course this not being practical.

If you or the hubby are the engineering type....the
solution you are looking for does not exist...you will
not get empirical data to give you a definitive answer.

[HL Falbaum]

Well -- the worst two '27s I have seen had water bags, not wet wings.

More data-

--
Hartley Falbaum
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Bumper, the ASH-26 wing is dry. As I understand teh problem is when
> you fill the 27 or 29's wings with water. Schempp has been building
> wet wings for many generations of gliders, while AS is somewhat new to
> wet wing construction.
>
> On Nov 4, 10:02 am, "bumper" > wrote:
>> "UFO" > wrote in
>> oglegroups.com...
>> It is common knowledge who's gliders wings change
>>
>> > shape shortly after delivery and who's don't.
>>
>> > John Sullivan UFO
>> > .While I didn't know about this when I ordered my ship 5 years ago,
>> > some
>> purchasers have insisted the manufacturer oven cure the wings a second
>> time,
>> this to help insure the wing profile has a better chance of remaining
>> constant post delivery.
>>
>> My ASH26E wings show no signs of change and there no cracks either even
>> with
>> climbs high into Sierra wave (though cracking doesn't seem to be the
>> issue
>> on AS ships that it has been on some others).
>>
>> bumper
>>
>> Proudly saving up for a new Wankel engine (should that ever be needed) by
>> selling five dollar Quit Vent kits and MKII yaw strings to millions of
>> glider pilots everywhere (g).
>