New transponder mode S vs. mode C [Archive]

Eric Greenwell

November 5th 06, 02:43 AM

wrote:
> On Nov 4, 5:32 pm, "Tom N." > wrote:
>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>> unit? Thanks.
>
> The new Becker mode S unit is about the same price as the old A/C.
> Its 2,064 Euros (plus $200 for an ACK-30 encode).
> This is what I got for my Antares 20E... See:
> http://www.becker-avionics.com/files/datasheets/BXP6401-2-(01).pdf

Several stores offer the mode C Becker for less than $2000 US dollars,
so you might want to check around if price is important; otherwise, it
is more desirable.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric Greenwell

November 5th 06, 02:47 AM

Roger wrote:
> S mode gives you traffic and is wonderful if you fly where there is
> other transpoder equiped aircraft. It has been very useful to me in
> general aviation.

Can you tell us what additional equipment it takes to get the traffic,
how the traffic is displayed, and where the traffic information is
available? For example, I think I read in the AOPA newsletter that the
traffic info was being cut back in a number of places, and was mainly
available near large cities, but I've never used the system.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Tom N.

November 5th 06, 03:34 AM

Thanks everyone. Can you tell me why mode S is more desirable? Even
with mode S, I don't think that I could display traffic on my PDA.
Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Nov 4, 5:32 pm, "Tom N." > wrote:
> >> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
> >> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
> >> unit? Thanks.
> >
> > The new Becker mode S unit is about the same price as the old A/C.
> > Its 2,064 Euros (plus $200 for an ACK-30 encode).
> > This is what I got for my Antares 20E... See:
> > http://www.becker-avionics.com/files/datasheets/BXP6401-2-(01).pdf
>
> Several stores offer the mode C Becker for less than $2000 US dollars,
> so you might want to check around if price is important; otherwise, it
> is more desirable.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Mike Schumann

November 5th 06, 03:40 AM

You need a graphic display device, like a Garmin 430 to see traffic.
Beware. The FAA has announced that new radars will not support the Traffic
Info function, so the main advantage of Mode S will be gone. I would opt
for a low cost solution, as eventually ADS-B will obsolete both Mode S and
Mode C transponders.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
news:Ngc3h.1954$qJ6.1740@trndny07...
> Roger wrote:
>> S mode gives you traffic and is wonderful if you fly where there is
>> other transpoder equiped aircraft. It has been very useful to me in
>> general aviation.
>
> Can you tell us what additional equipment it takes to get the traffic, how
> the traffic is displayed, and where the traffic information is available?
> For example, I think I read in the AOPA newsletter that the traffic info
> was being cut back in a number of places, and was mainly available near
> large cities, but I've never used the system.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

November 5th 06, 06:16 AM

Mode S will give you more than traffic, in an IFR world..
but The Mode S is only the conduit.. you need the parts to display the data
on..
and they have not set it up for a pda yet..

not good for a glider
BT

"Roger" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> S mode gives you traffic and is wonderful if you fly where there is
> other transpoder equiped aircraft. It has been very useful to me in
> general aviation.
>
> On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Tom N." > wrote:
>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>> unit? Thanks.
>

hans

November 5th 06, 07:44 AM

Mode S is more desirable as large portion of the airspace will be only
available for gilders with engine if the glider is mode S equipped after
31 March 2008.

If connected to a certified GPS your mode S transponder can emit the
current position and altitude in the extended quitter, so that you are
visible with much higher accuracy on TCAS of the big boys.

Tom N. schrieb:
> Thanks everyone. Can you tell me why mode S is more desirable? Even
> with mode S, I don't think that I could display traffic on my PDA.
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> On Nov 4, 5:32 pm, "Tom N." > wrote:
>>>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
>>>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>>>> unit? Thanks.
>>> The new Becker mode S unit is about the same price as the old A/C.
>>> Its 2,064 Euros (plus $200 for an ACK-30 encode).
>>> This is what I got for my Antares 20E... See:
>>> http://www.becker-avionics.com/files/datasheets/BXP6401-2-(01).pdf
>> Several stores offer the mode C Becker for less than $2000 US dollars,
>> so you might want to check around if price is important; otherwise, it
>> is more desirable.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>>
>> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
>> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>>
>> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
>

Stefan

November 5th 06, 08:58 AM

Tom N. schrieb:
> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
> unit? Thanks.

Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in which
part of the world you intend to fly.

Tom N.

November 5th 06, 01:33 PM

I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
302 for GPS.
Stefan wrote:
> Tom N. schrieb:
> > Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
> > Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
> > unit? Thanks.
>
> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in which
> part of the world you intend to fly.

Stefan

November 5th 06, 03:32 PM

Tom N. schrieb:
> There is no requirement in the U.S. to
> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it.

It seems you pretty much answered your question yourself.

Eric Greenwell

November 5th 06, 04:02 PM

Tom N. wrote:
> Thanks everyone. Can you tell me why mode S is more desirable? Even
> with mode S, I don't think that I could display traffic on my PDA.
> Eric Greenwell wrote:

What country are you in (my guess was the US, but maybe not)? If it's
the USA, mode S is slightly more desirable because is will use less
power in area with a lot of radars; if it's Europe, you should get it.
You also have more choices there than the US for mode S.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

hans

November 5th 06, 04:08 PM

Hi Tom!

your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.

Best Regards

Hans

Tom N. schrieb:
> I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
> miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
> final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
> bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
> 302 for GPS.
> Stefan wrote:
>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
>>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>>> unit? Thanks.
>> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in which
>> part of the world you intend to fly.
>

November 5th 06, 04:17 PM

US military fighter type aircraft do not currently have TCAS
Do not rely on TCAS to keep you safe
BT

"Tom N." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
> miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
> final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
> bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
> 302 for GPS.
> Stefan wrote:
>> Tom N. schrieb:
>> > Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
>> > Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>> > unit? Thanks.
>>
>> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in which
>> part of the world you intend to fly.
>

November 5th 06, 04:28 PM

ok..
so next we are going to want ADS-B in our gliders?
someone should figure how to get that target data displayed on the moving
map with WinPilot (or similar) on the PDA

B

"Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> You need a graphic display device, like a Garmin 430 to see traffic.
> Beware. The FAA has announced that new radars will not support the
> Traffic Info function, so the main advantage of Mode S will be gone. I
> would opt for a low cost solution, as eventually ADS-B will obsolete both
> Mode S and Mode C transponders.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> news:Ngc3h.1954$qJ6.1740@trndny07...
>> Roger wrote:
>>> S mode gives you traffic and is wonderful if you fly where there is
>>> other transpoder equiped aircraft. It has been very useful to me in
>>> general aviation.
>>
>> Can you tell us what additional equipment it takes to get the traffic,
>> how the traffic is displayed, and where the traffic information is
>> available? For example, I think I read in the AOPA newsletter that the
>> traffic info was being cut back in a number of places, and was mainly
>> available near large cities, but I've never used the system.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>>
>> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
>> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>>
>> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
>
>

jeplane

November 5th 06, 04:29 PM

BT wrote:
> US military fighter type aircraft do not currently have TCAS
> Do not rely on TCAS to keep you safe

This is correct. However, there is no doubt a TCAS will keep you safeR!
But then again, you must have a transponder to be see on their screen.
It's an overkill on a 2-33 going around the pattern all day long, but
certainly not in a modern glider within 30 miles of a class B or C
airspace.

I fly for the same company involved in the mid-air. Trust me, at the
speed we fly, gliders are hard to see. Heck, even thermalling in a
glider, other gliders can be hard to spot!

Richard
Phoenix AZ

[email protected]

November 5th 06, 04:37 PM

On Nov 4, 9:43 pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Nov 4, 5:32 pm, "Tom N." > wrote:
> >> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
> >> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
> >> unit? Thanks.
>
> > The new Becker mode S unit is about the same price as the old A/C.
> > Its 2,064 Euros (plus $200 for an ACK-30 encode).
> > This is what I got for my Antares 20E... See:
> > http://www.becker-avionics.com/files/datasheets/BXP6401-2-(01).pdfSeveral stores offer the mode C Becker for less than $2000 US dollars,
> so you might want to check around if price is important; otherwise, it
> is more desirable.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Right, its the list price above for the Becker...

November 5th 06, 06:04 PM

"jeplane" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> BT wrote:
>> US military fighter type aircraft do not currently have TCAS
>> Do not rely on TCAS to keep you safe
>
> This is correct. However, there is no doubt a TCAS will keep you safeR!
> But then again, you must have a transponder to be see on their screen.
> It's an overkill on a 2-33 going around the pattern all day long, but
> certainly not in a modern glider within 30 miles of a class B or C
> airspace.
>
> I fly for the same company involved in the mid-air. Trust me, at the
> speed we fly, gliders are hard to see. Heck, even thermalling in a
> glider, other gliders can be hard to spot!
>
> Richard
> Phoenix AZ
>

I will agree on the safeR part.. but only from part of the variety of
aircraft flying.
Gliders are hard to see.. so are T-38s coming at you nose on. T-38s don't
have TCAS.

Would it have made a difference if it was a Cessna Single Engine at cruise
altitude instead of a glider? Probabily not.. there still may have been an
accident.. granted the Cessna Single would more likely have a transponder,
so the BIZ Jet would have gotten a TCAS return.. but that Cessna with no TIS
display would never have gotten a return on the Jet or the Glider.

I do fly 2-33s inside the Mode C Veil and up to 12K MSL in summer.. and
other gliders much higher. Not just around the traffic pattern. The 2-33,
Grob 103 and LS-4 all show up on approach radar with no transponder.
Center's tend to filter non transponder returns to reduce clutter.

BT

Eric Greenwell

November 5th 06, 06:41 PM

BT wrote:
> "jeplane" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> BT wrote:
>>> US military fighter type aircraft do not currently have TCAS
>>> Do not rely on TCAS to keep you safe
>> This is correct. However, there is no doubt a TCAS will keep you safeR!
>> But then again, you must have a transponder to be see on their screen.
>> It's an overkill on a 2-33 going around the pattern all day long, but
>> certainly not in a modern glider within 30 miles of a class B or C
>> airspace.
>>
>> I fly for the same company involved in the mid-air. Trust me, at the
>> speed we fly, gliders are hard to see. Heck, even thermalling in a
>> glider, other gliders can be hard to spot!
>>
>> Richard
>> Phoenix AZ
>>
>
> I will agree on the safeR part.. but only from part of the variety of
> aircraft flying.
> Gliders are hard to see.. so are T-38s coming at you nose on. T-38s don't
> have TCAS.

Are the T-38s in contact with a radar facility that will inform it of a
transponder or even primary target? Do they have equipment that will
detect a transponder signal, even though they aren't using TCAS?

I ask because I've heard a number of times, from people that seem like
they ought to know, that fighters don't have any trouble detecting
another aircraft, unless they are near the ground. The aircraft/fighter
collisions I can remember all took place near the ground, like Chip
Garner's glider, and a crop duster here in Washington state.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Doug Haluza

November 5th 06, 08:18 PM

At the OLC symosium last week, Garrecht was showing their Mode S
transponders. They have two versions, an all-in-one panel hole mount,
and a remote version. I think their price was <2000 Euro.

http://www.volkslogger.de/en/html/body_transponder.html

Tom N.

November 5th 06, 08:53 PM

So, to summarize - I am not hearing any compelling reason to go with a
mode S transponder over a mode C transponder here in the U.S. Does
anyone disagree?
Eric Greenwell wrote:
> BT wrote:
> > "jeplane" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> >> BT wrote:
> >>> US military fighter type aircraft do not currently have TCAS
> >>> Do not rely on TCAS to keep you safe
> >> This is correct. However, there is no doubt a TCAS will keep you safeR!
> >> But then again, you must have a transponder to be see on their screen.
> >> It's an overkill on a 2-33 going around the pattern all day long, but
> >> certainly not in a modern glider within 30 miles of a class B or C
> >> airspace.
> >>
> >> I fly for the same company involved in the mid-air. Trust me, at the
> >> speed we fly, gliders are hard to see. Heck, even thermalling in a
> >> glider, other gliders can be hard to spot!
> >>
> >> Richard
> >> Phoenix AZ
> >>
> >
> > I will agree on the safeR part.. but only from part of the variety of
> > aircraft flying.
> > Gliders are hard to see.. so are T-38s coming at you nose on. T-38s don't
> > have TCAS.
>
> Are the T-38s in contact with a radar facility that will inform it of a
> transponder or even primary target? Do they have equipment that will
> detect a transponder signal, even though they aren't using TCAS?
>
> I ask because I've heard a number of times, from people that seem like
> they ought to know, that fighters don't have any trouble detecting
> another aircraft, unless they are near the ground. The aircraft/fighter
> collisions I can remember all took place near the ground, like Chip
> Garner's glider, and a crop duster here in Washington state.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Gary Emerson[_1_]

November 5th 06, 09:57 PM

AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah,
yeah all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you
ground looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units
sending out a different data protocol?

hans wrote:
> Hi Tom!
>
> your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.
>
> Best Regards
>
>
> Hans
>
>
> Tom N. schrieb:
>
>> I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
>> miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
>> final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
>> bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
>> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
>> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
>> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
>> 302 for GPS.
>> Stefan wrote:
>>
>>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my ASW-28.
>>>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>>>> unit? Thanks.
>>>
>>> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in which
>>> part of the world you intend to fly.
>>
>>

hans

November 5th 06, 10:50 PM

I can't remember any requirement of NMEA output for aviation certified
GPS receiver. Mode S transponder are at least required to work with
ARINC input. I have to check whether the ARINC input is the only
permitted input to the mode S transponder.

Gary Emerson schrieb:
> AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
> generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah,
> yeah all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you
> ground looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units
> sending out a different data protocol?
>
> hans wrote:
>> Hi Tom!
>>
>> your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>>
>> Hans
>>
>>
>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>
>>> I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
>>> miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
>>> final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
>>> bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
>>> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
>>> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
>>> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
>>> 302 for GPS.
>>> Stefan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my
>>>>> ASW-28.
>>>>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>>>>> unit? Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in
>>>> which
>>>> part of the world you intend to fly.
>>>
>>>

Marc Ramsey

November 5th 06, 11:03 PM

Why would you want a Mode S transponder to be fed by a GPS? The
Extended Squitter variation of ADS-B does layer on top of the Mode S
downlink protocol, but simply feeding GPS data to a Mode S transponder
will not make it ADS-B compliant. An entirely new box will be needed.

The only reason to use a Mode S transponder in the US (outside of the
categories of aircraft for which it is mandated) is to take advantage of
the uplinked traffic and weather information, which needs an expensive
and power hungry multi-function display. Since some of those services
are now being shut down in anticipation of ADS-B deployment, even that
reason is slowly being rendered meaningless. Also, do not forget that
it costs roughly twice as much to recertify a Mode S transponder, and
you may have to go farther to find a shop that has the right test equipment.

In response to the original poster, if you spend extra money to install
and maintain a Mode S (instead of C) transponder in a glider operating
in the US, you're simply wasting money...

Marc

Gary Emerson wrote:
> AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
> generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah,
> yeah all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you
> ground looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units
> sending out a different data protocol?
>
> hans wrote:
>> Hi Tom!
>>
>> your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>>
>> Hans
>>
>>
>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>
>>> I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
>>> miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
>>> final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
>>> bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
>>> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
>>> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
>>> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
>>> 302 for GPS.
>>> Stefan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my
>>>>> ASW-28.
>>>>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>>>>> unit? Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in
>>>> which
>>>> part of the world you intend to fly.
>>>
>>>

Eric Greenwell

November 6th 06, 12:57 AM

November 6th 06, 12:58 AM

> Are the T-38s in contact with a radar facility that will inform it of a
> transponder or even primary target? Do they have equipment that will
> detect a transponder signal, even though they aren't using TCAS?

If they are below Class A, they may or may not be in contact with ATC.

>
> I ask because I've heard a number of times, from people that seem like
> they ought to know, that fighters don't have any trouble detecting another
> aircraft, unless they are near the ground. The aircraft/fighter collisions
> I can remember all took place near the ground, like Chip Garner's glider,
> and a crop duster here in Washington state.
>

"Fighter" type aircraft do have "air to air" radar capability to scan for
and "target" other aircraft, transponder not required. Those are aircraft
normally begining with "F", as in F-16, F-15, F14, F18.
T-38s are trainers.. not fighters.. no air to air radar.

BT

Eric Greenwell

November 6th 06, 02:05 AM

BT wrote:
>> Are the T-38s in contact with a radar facility that will inform it of a
>> transponder or even primary target? Do they have equipment that will
>> detect a transponder signal, even though they aren't using TCAS?
>
> If they are below Class A, they may or may not be in contact with ATC.
>
>> I ask because I've heard a number of times, from people that seem like
>> they ought to know, that fighters don't have any trouble detecting another
>> aircraft, unless they are near the ground. The aircraft/fighter collisions
>> I can remember all took place near the ground, like Chip Garner's glider,
>> and a crop duster here in Washington state.
>>
>
> "Fighter" type aircraft do have "air to air" radar capability to scan for
> and "target" other aircraft, transponder not required. Those are aircraft
> normally begining with "F", as in F-16, F-15, F14, F18.
> T-38s are trainers.. not fighters.. no air to air radar.

No radar, no ATC, no TPAS - so, some part of the time, the T-38 can only
detect other aircraft visually. Do the T-38s have transponders, so a
TPAS carried by a glider could detect their proximity?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

November 6th 06, 02:32 AM

>
> No radar, no ATC, no TPAS - so, some part of the time, the T-38 can only
> detect other aircraft visually. Do the T-38s have transponders, so a TPAS
> carried by a glider could detect their proximity?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Yes
BT

Bruce Greef

November 6th 06, 07:47 AM

Mike Schumann wrote:
> You need a graphic display device, like a Garmin 430 to see traffic.
> Beware. The FAA has announced that new radars will not support the Traffic
> Info function, so the main advantage of Mode S will be gone. I would opt
> for a low cost solution, as eventually ADS-B will obsolete both Mode S and
> Mode C transponders.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> news:Ngc3h.1954$qJ6.1740@trndny07...
>
>>Roger wrote:
>>
>>>S mode gives you traffic and is wonderful if you fly where there is
>>>other transpoder equiped aircraft. It has been very useful to me in
>>>general aviation.
>>
>>Can you tell us what additional equipment it takes to get the traffic, how
>>the traffic is displayed, and where the traffic information is available?
>>For example, I think I read in the AOPA newsletter that the traffic info
>>was being cut back in a number of places, and was mainly available near
>>large cities, but I've never used the system.
>>
>>--
>>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>>
>>"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
>> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>>
>>"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
>
>
>
Low cost transponder - now there's an oxymoron.

[email protected]

November 6th 06, 11:54 AM

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Why would you want a Mode S transponder to be fed by a GPS? The
> Extended Squitter variation of ADS-B does layer on top of the Mode S
> downlink protocol, but simply feeding GPS data to a Mode S transponder
> will not make it ADS-B compliant. An entirely new box will be needed.
>
> The only reason to use a Mode S transponder in the US (outside of the
> categories of aircraft for which it is mandated) is to take advantage of
> the uplinked traffic and weather information, which needs an expensive
> and power hungry multi-function display. Since some of those services
> are now being shut down in anticipation of ADS-B deployment, even that
> reason is slowly being rendered meaningless. Also, do not forget that
> it costs roughly twice as much to recertify a Mode S transponder, and
> you may have to go farther to find a shop that has the right test equipment.
>
> In response to the original poster, if you spend extra money to install
> and maintain a Mode S (instead of C) transponder in a glider operating
> in the US, you're simply wasting money...
>
> Marc
>
> Gary Emerson wrote:
> > AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
> > generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah,
> > yeah all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you
> > ground looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units
> > sending out a different data protocol?
> >
> > hans wrote:
> >> Hi Tom!
> >>
> >> your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.
> >>
> >> Best Regards
> >>
> >>
> >> Hans
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom N. schrieb:
> >>
> >>> I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
> >>> miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
> >>> final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
> >>> bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
> >>> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
> >>> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
> >>> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
> >>> 302 for GPS.
> >>> Stefan wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Tom N. schrieb:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my
> >>>>> ASW-28.
> >>>>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
> >>>>> unit? Thanks.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in
> >>>> which
> >>>> part of the world you intend to fly.
> >>>
> >>>

Hi Marc - I purchased mode S simply because there doesn't seem
to be a material cost difference with the current available equipment.
In Europe and other parts of the world, Mode S is becoming required,
so as I may take my toy and fly in other countries it seems prudent !
I haven't checked if there's any difference in recertification cost
with the local shops.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

kirk.stant

November 6th 06, 02:28 PM

A couple of points:

Military flights are IFR most of the time - with obvious exceptions
when on a low-level route or in a restricted area. At the altitudes
most gliders fly (except for ridges), T-38s and pretty much everything
else will be on Center freq and in contact with center. And ALL
military aircraft have transponders, and are required to use them, and
most fighters can interrogate other transponders (much better than TCAS
IMHO), and have air-to-air search radars that can see gliders.

The new T-38C has a glass cockpit, HUD, GPS, and probably TCAS (it
would make sense in a training environment), but not sure about the
TCAS. But T-38s are kept on a short leash on very structured training
missions - they aren't just wandering around looking for gliders to
bounce!

The threat from military fast movers is at low altitudes, or near
high-traffic areas. Stay out of hot MOA's during the week, know where
the LLTRs cross your local ridge, don't wander into a restricted area -
and you are safe from the military.

Now, Joe Bagadonuts in his 1959 Cezzna 172, sightseeing VFR ("Lucille,
I thought I told you to clean the mud and bugs off the windshield last
year!") - good luck detecting him! No transponder (or it doesn't
work), not talking to anybody, not looking out the window cuz he's
trying to figure out his newfangled GPS thingy...

Kirk
66

Wayne Paul

November 6th 06, 03:26 PM

Kirt,

"Stay out of MOAs during the week"? So I guess you can only fly in Nevada,
and large areas of other western states, on week-ends when the MAOs are only
being used by the Air National Guard. I also doubt that the F-18s based at
Fallon, NV, F-15s and F-16s based at Mt Home, ID are flying IFR most of the
time. In fact, I can't think of any place where combat fighter training is
conducted that you will find "F" series aircraft flying mostly IFR.

On a cross country last summer a couple F-16s came quite close to a couple
of local gliders. One of the pilots called Mt Home AFB just to find out if
the F-16s had spotted the gliders. The Mt Home AFB representative stated
that one of the pilots saw a flash of white and after the fact determined
that it must have been a glider. So much for being spotted on their radar.

You are totally correct stating that avoiding low-level routs, restricted
areas and MAOs will nearly eliminate military aircraft conflicts. In fact
all glider accidents can also be avoided by leaving your glider is its'
trailer.

Respectfully,

Wayne
P.S. My comments are biased by my experience flying A-6 Intruders 30 years
ago.
http://www.soaridaho.com/

"kirk.stant" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>A couple of points:
>
> Military flights are IFR most of the time - with obvious exceptions
> when on a low-level route or in a restricted area. At the altitudes
> most gliders fly (except for ridges), T-38s and pretty much everything
> else will be on Center freq and in contact with center. And ALL
> military aircraft have transponders, and are required to use them, and
> most fighters can interrogate other transponders (much better than TCAS
> IMHO), and have air-to-air search radars that can see gliders.
>
> The new T-38C has a glass cockpit, HUD, GPS, and probably TCAS (it
> would make sense in a training environment), but not sure about the
> TCAS. But T-38s are kept on a short leash on very structured training
> missions - they aren't just wandering around looking for gliders to
> bounce!
>
> The threat from military fast movers is at low altitudes, or near
> high-traffic areas. Stay out of hot MOA's during the week, know where
> the LLTRs cross your local ridge, don't wander into a restricted area -
> and you are safe from the military.
>
> Now, Joe Bagadonuts in his 1959 Cezzna 172, sightseeing VFR ("Lucille,
> I thought I told you to clean the mud and bugs off the windshield last
> year!") - good luck detecting him! No transponder (or it doesn't
> work), not talking to anybody, not looking out the window cuz he's
> trying to figure out his newfangled GPS thingy...
>
> Kirk
> 66
>

kirk.stant

November 6th 06, 07:31 PM

Wayne Paul wrote:
> Kirt,
>
> "Stay out of MOAs during the week"? So I guess you can only fly in Nevada,
> and large areas of other western states, on week-ends when the MAOs are only
> being used by the Air National Guard. I also doubt that the F-18s based at
> Fallon, NV, F-15s and F-16s based at Mt Home, ID are flying IFR most of the
> time. In fact, I can't think of any place where combat fighter training is
> conducted that you will find "F" series aircraft flying mostly IFR.

Wayne, I said "stay out of HOT MOAs". If you want to tangle with some
A-10s or F-16s conducting BFM in a MOA, knock yourself out - but don't
be surprised if you get a face full of fighter!

Maybe you Navy guys in A-6s rooted around VFR all the time, but in my
time in the AF (F-4s) we were IFR (but not usually IMC) to and from the
ranges, MOA's, or low level routes. That is still a big part of the
flight. When you finished your low level route, you popped up,
contacted center, and got a clearance and a Mode 3 (transponder) code
for the trip home - under an IFR clearance. Still applies today,
according to my F-16 and F-15 buddies.
>
> On a cross country last summer a couple F-16s came quite close to a couple
> of local gliders. One of the pilots called Mt Home AFB just to find out if
> the F-16s had spotted the gliders. The Mt Home AFB representative stated
> that one of the pilots saw a flash of white and after the fact determined
> that it must have been a glider. So much for being spotted on their radar.

That doesn't say much, really. They may have picked up the gliders as
traffic on their radar an maneuvered to avoid, and just not see the
glider. I have seen F-16 HUD video of a radar lock on a G-102 (N123BG,
to be precise), so detection is possible. In that case it was the
wingman who locked on (automatically), and he didn't see the glider
until REAL close as he was watching lead and changing freq.
Fortunately the glider pilot saw the F-16 and actually enjoyed the
close encounter (no it wasn't me!)

> You are totally correct stating that avoiding low-level routs, restricted
> areas and MAOs will nearly eliminate military aircraft conflicts. In fact
> all glider accidents can also be avoided by leaving your glider is its'
> trailer.

I just don't think military traffic is much of a factor in the real
world - but common sense should prevail. In my glider flying in AZ,
NV, UT, IL, OH, and VA, I've never felt contrained by airspace or
threatened by military traffic. Or airliners (easy to see!).
Bugsmashers? You bet!

> Respectfully,
>
> Wayne
> P.S. My comments are biased by my experience flying A-6 Intruders 30 years
> ago.

Cool jet!

hans

November 6th 06, 09:26 PM

I talked today to Filser and Becker, and they both confirmed that their
mode-S transponders will support extended quitter with GPS information
transmitted, if a GPS is connected in the near future. It will be a
software update.

Marc Ramsey schrieb:
> Why would you want a Mode S transponder to be fed by a GPS? The
> Extended Squitter variation of ADS-B does layer on top of the Mode S
> downlink protocol, but simply feeding GPS data to a Mode S transponder
> will not make it ADS-B compliant. An entirely new box will be needed.
>

Marc Ramsey

November 6th 06, 09:34 PM

hans wrote:
> I talked today to Filser and Becker, and they both confirmed that their
> mode-S transponders will support extended quitter with GPS information
> transmitted, if a GPS is connected in the near future. It will be a
> software update.

They will also have to jump through a lot of certification hoops, at
least here in the US. I'd be quite happy if they can manage to do so
without requiring an expensive RAIM/WAAS certified GPS unit...

Marc

Mike Schumann

November 7th 06, 03:41 AM

Mode S and ADS-B are completely different technologies.

Mike Schumann

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
news:%Lv3h.2739$bg7.2620@trndny04...
> Mike Schumann wrote:
>> You need a graphic display device, like a Garmin 430 to see traffic.
>> Beware. The FAA has announced that new radars will not support the
>> Traffic Info function, so the main advantage of Mode S will be gone. I
>> would opt for a low cost solution, as eventually ADS-B will obsolete both
>> Mode S and Mode C transponders.
>
> I read somewhere that mode S transponders were going to be the data-link
> platform for ADS-B, though it wasn't clear if all mode S transponders
> would be capable of it. Has the FAA chosen some other other platform?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Mike Schumann

November 7th 06, 03:43 AM

A Mode S transponder does not need any inputs from a GPS.

Mike Schumann

"Gary Emerson" > wrote in message
t...
> AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
> generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah, yeah
> all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you ground
> looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units sending out
> a different data protocol?
>
> hans wrote:
>> Hi Tom!
>>
>> your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>>
>> Hans
>>
>>
>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>
>>> I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
>>> miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
>>> final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
>>> bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
>>> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
>>> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
>>> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
>>> 302 for GPS.
>>> Stefan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my
>>>>> ASW-28.
>>>>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>>>>> unit? Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in
>>>> which
>>>> part of the world you intend to fly.
>>>
>>>

Eric Greenwell

November 7th 06, 04:23 AM

Mike Schumann wrote:
> Mode S and ADS-B are completely different technologies.

Potentially some overlap, though. I found this on the AOPA website,
dated July 5, 2006:

> Also, in the United States the FAA chose UAT — universal access
> transceiver — as the ADS-B datalink for general aviation. Australia
> chose to use as its ADS-B datalink the 1090-MHz Mode S extended
> squitter system. Mode S extended squitter does not have nearly the
> data capacity of UAT, nor is it as robust.

What adds some confusion to this is the airliners will be using mode S
for the ADS-B datalink. From AOPA again:

> A second ADS-B datalink is the 1090 Mode S Extended Squitter. The
> 1090 ADS-B datalink will be used by the airlines (which already have
> Mode S systems they can upgrade).

So, it looks like general aviation types like us will be using the UAT
instead of mode S. Given that, buying mode S won't even be useful for a
USA pilot that wants to add ADS-B when it becomes available.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

hans

November 7th 06, 07:40 AM

Mike!

you are correct that a mode S transponder does not require any input
form a GPS. But in some areas of the world it (will be)/(is) useful to
supply the mode S transponder with current position information so that
the mode S transponder can disseminate this information via extended
squitter.

Hans

Mike Schumann schrieb:
> A Mode S transponder does not need any inputs from a GPS.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Gary Emerson" > wrote in message
> t...
>> AH, but the real question is... would a 302 or other GPS be capable of
>> generating the data that could be fed to a Mode S transponder? Yeah, yeah
>> all the illegal stuff and your insurance would never pay if you ground
>> looped..., but would it work or are the certified GPS units sending out
>> a different data protocol?
>>
>> hans wrote:
>>> Hi Tom!
>>>
>>> your 302 does not qualify as a certified GPS for the mode S transponder.
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>>
>>>
>>> Hans
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>>
>>>> I live in San Antonio, Texas, USA. We fly out of a field 15 nautical
>>>> miles away from San Antonio International airport and are basically on
>>>> final approach for a lot of jet traffic. There are also two Air Force
>>>> bases in the immediate area. There is no requirement in the U.S. to
>>>> have mode S as there will be in Europe. However, if there is less
>>>> power consumption due to fewer interrogations or if there is more
>>>> accuracy on TCAS, I would be willing to go with it. I use a Cambridge
>>>> 302 for GPS.
>>>> Stefan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tom N. schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Any opinions? I plan to install a new Becker transponder in my
>>>>>> ASW-28.
>>>>>> Should I go with the old mode C unit or pay extra for the new mode S
>>>>>> unit? Thanks.
>>>>> Tor answer this question, it would be extremely helpful to know in
>>>>> which
>>>>> part of the world you intend to fly.
>>>>
>
>