Crosswind rental limits?

[nrp]

A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
solo cross countries.

[Peter Duniho]

"nrp" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
> solo cross countries.

A limit of 5 knots might be unusual, but the general idea of imposing limits
of that sort on students isn't. FBOs and instructors both do regularly
place restrictions on their students, especially with respect to weather
conditions.

In my experience though, a 5 knot limit is a bit on the low side. Perhaps
the FBO would be willing to up the limit a bit (even getting it up to 7 or 8
knots would put it more in line with what I've seen at some other FBOs) if
the student were to spend some extra time on crosswind practice with his
instructor. If the weather conditions are such that a 5 knot limit is
causing problems flying solo XC flights (I assume you mean "flying", and not
"scheduling"...weather shouldn't affect scheduling, unless the student is
waiting until an hour or so before the flight to schedule :) ), then it
should not be hard for the student and instructor to go out and find some
good crosswinds to practice in.

Of course, there is also the possibility of just being patient and trying to
work around the existing limit. This could mean keeping one's schedule
open, so that when good conditions show up the student is ready to fly. Or
it could be adjusting the XC plan so that the intended airports of landing
have prevailing winds that are more commonly straight (or at least
straighter) down the runway, so that the crosswind component is minimized.

Pete

[Bob Noel]

In article m>,
"nrp" > wrote:

> A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
> solo cross countries.

A college buddy of mine might not have had a fatal solo if the FBO had, and
enforced, a crosswind limit.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Thomas Borchert]

Nrp,

> The FBO has a
> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
> solo cross countries.
>

5 knots is low, the tpye of limit not. How is the limit determined? By
forecast? Seems to me there's a ton of ways to fudge around it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> A college buddy of mine might not have had a fatal solo if the FBO had,
> and
> enforced, a crosswind limit.

Did the instructor's solo endorsement impose such a limit?

--Gary

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

nrp wrote:
> A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> Do other FBOs do this?

Typically, your instructor sets crosswind limits. The student will
usually start out @ 5, and the instructor should gradually increase the
limit as the student nears the check ride.

I trained at a single runway field that almost always had crosswinds.
My original solo limit was 5 knots, it reached 10 for cross-countries,
then 15, then I took my ride. The airplanes I fly have typical max.
demonstrated crosswind components of 17-18 knots.

The instructor will typically set endorsed limits even if the student
owns the plane, as the instructor is also on the hook for student accidents.

[Alan Gerber]

nrp > wrote:
> A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
> solo cross countries.

We had a limit of 20 knots surface wind and 10 knots crosswind component,
at both origin and destination. That seemed reasonable to me.

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[The Visitor]

10 seems more common, do they have insurance issues?

nrp wrote:
> A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
> solo cross countries.
>

[nrp]

On Nov 6, 9:21 am, The Visitor >
wrote:
> 10 seems more common, do they have insurance issues?

I understand it is an insurance issue. I agree it is very restrictive.
Is the Diamond extra sensitive to crosswinds?

nrp

[Jim Macklin]

A silly policy, better to be sure the routes allowed for
students have good alternates and airports within close
proximity with runways on different headings.

The CFI should be allowed to do his job.

Many FBOs are just money-men and know nothing about
airplanes or pilots.



"nrp" > wrote in message
ps.com...
|A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The
FBO has a
| policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots
crosswind component.
| Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble
scheduling his
| solo cross countries.
|

[Dudley Henriques]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article m>,
> "nrp" > wrote:
>
>> A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
>> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
>> Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
>> solo cross countries.
>
> A college buddy of mine might not have had a fatal solo if the FBO had,
> and
> enforced, a crosswind limit.

I don't know any of the circumstances directly involved with this specific
accident, but just on the surface, I tend to lean heavily away from this
logic. Regardless of any crosswind restriction imposed by an FBO. its
incumbent on an instructor to determine the ability of a student to handle
the conditions present at the time of solo.
If this student was killed on solo, and if crosswind was a contributing
factor in the accident, I look directly at the instructor as being the
failed factor, not the FBO.
All this talk about regimentation and formal structure by FBO's relating to
conditions is all well and good, but it should never, and I repeat NEVER be
used in a context that replaces individual instructor responsibility.

Dudley Henriques

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article m>,
> "nrp" > wrote:
>
> > A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
> > policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> > Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
> > solo cross countries.
>
> A college buddy of mine might not have had a fatal solo if the FBO had, and
> enforced, a crosswind limit.
>


Although crosswind accidents are not unusual, a fatal accident is rare.
It would be beneficial to learn from this accident. Do you have the
NTSB reference for this?

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 09:55:22 -0600, Jim Macklin wrote:

> A silly policy, better to be sure the routes allowed for students have
> good alternates and airports within close proximity with runways on
> different headings.
>
> The CFI should be allowed to do his job.
>
> Many FBOs are just money-men and know nothing about airplanes or pilots.

The FBO where I did my initial training was run by someone that knows
airplanes (even if he didn't seem to like them very much {8^). But they
still had a 5 kts crosswind limit.

Perhaps I could have had it increased over time, but I never thought of
asking. The limit didn't seem that onerous, even though I also spent
plenty of time with an instructor practicing crosswind handling.

But the airport where I trained had intersecting runways, and every
airport involved in my cross countries was similarly endowed. That was
probably a deliberate choice on the part of the FBO.

There was also a headwind limitation, but I don't recall it.

- Andrew

[Robert M. Gary]

nrp wrote:
> A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
> solo cross countries.

I always put a 7 knot crosswind limit on my student's initial solo.
I'll increase it as they get more time. Things get very busy very
quickly for students above 7 knots. When we have a nice day of 20 knot
cross wind I'll call my students up and have them rush out and meet me
at the airport. Usually 30 minutes is all they can take. Its like a
boxing match for them. However, the learning experience is important.
Its like riding a bike, you need to create those mussle associations of
how to handle cross winds.

-Robert

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> > A college buddy of mine might not have had a fatal solo if the FBO had,
> > and
> > enforced, a crosswind limit.
>
> Did the instructor's solo endorsement impose such a limit?

I don't know - too long ago and it was 8 years before my first
lesson.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:

> > A college buddy of mine might not have had a fatal solo if the FBO had, and
> > enforced, a crosswind limit.
>
> Although crosswind accidents are not unusual, a fatal accident is rare.
> It would be beneficial to learn from this accident. Do you have the
> NTSB reference for this?

no. I don't even remember the year exactly, some time around 1980.

and, fwiw, I know that the FBO was not the primary cause - the student
touched a snowbank beside the runway and attempted to go around,
stalled, and crashed. But I think it's fair to say that the high crosswind
(and possibly gusty winds) contributed to the accident.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:

> > A college buddy of mine might not have had a fatal solo if the FBO had,
> > and
> > enforced, a crosswind limit.
>
> I don't know any of the circumstances directly involved with this specific
> accident, but just on the surface, I tend to lean heavily away from this
> logic. Regardless of any crosswind restriction imposed by an FBO. its
> incumbent on an instructor to determine the ability of a student to handle
> the conditions present at the time of solo.
> If this student was killed on solo, and if crosswind was a contributing
> factor in the accident, I look directly at the instructor as being the
> failed factor, not the FBO.
> All this talk about regimentation and formal structure by FBO's relating to
> conditions is all well and good, but it should never, and I repeat NEVER be
> used in a context that replaces individual instructor responsibility.
>
> Dudley Henriques

don't get me wrong. I did not mean to say that the FBO was the primary
cause or primary contributing factor to this accident. But the FBO could
have broken the chain.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Robert M. Gary]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Many FBOs are just money-men and know nothing about
> airplanes or pilots.

Then they must also be stupid. I can't imagine investing $500,000 into
airplanes for a next to zero return.

-Robert

[Jim Macklin]

Old saying, "to make a small fortune in aviation, start with
a big fortune."

Point being that weather changes from minute to minute.
Wind that is nearly calm and forecast to stay that way can
become 20g42 within a single reporting period. If you are
so worried about a student or pp renter that you won't rent
to them if the wind MIGHT become a 5 knot crosswind, you
need to stop all operation.
The FAA requires that certified aircraft be able to handle
at least 20% of the stall speed as a 90° crosswind. The
manufactures report maximum demonstrate because that was
what was blowing on that day.

Teach people to fly in strong and gusty winds, to use their
feet and hands and control the airplane and they'll be safer
than if some bookkeeper says "it's too windy" to fly.

Seek out crosswinds. Practice on the crosswind runway. Fly
extended flares and practice switching from crab to slop and
back. tracking sideways with a slip while keeping the wheels
aligned with the runway 1 foot off the ground. Practice and
determine your ability to get full rudder travel and aileron
too. Know how to slip to a landing and how to crab until
almost down and then "kick the plane straight [not my
preferred method.]

But you can learn to see how much crab angle is being
required to track straight and know how much slipping power
your airplane has. When you see you don't have rudder and
aileron available, change runways or even land at a slight
angle on the runway to cut down the crosswind component.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > Many FBOs are just money-men and know nothing about
| > airplanes or pilots.
|
| Then they must also be stupid. I can't imagine investing
$500,000 into
| airplanes for a next to zero return.
|
| -Robert
|

[BT]

> In my experience though, a 5 knot limit is a bit on the low side.

Have you flown a DA20? it has glider wings..
5knts for first solo may be prudent..
up to 10knts when ready for the check ride.

BT

[Morgans[_2_]]

"nrp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> On Nov 6, 9:21 am, The Visitor >
> wrote:
>> 10 seems more common, do they have insurance issues?
>
> I understand it is an insurance issue. I agree it is very restrictive.
> Is the Diamond extra sensitive to crosswinds?

With that long, long tail moment, It would be hard to imagine that it is _not_
sensitive to crosswinds.

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I have never really flown a
Diamond! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[The Visitor]

Morgans wrote:

> I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I have never really
> flown a Diamond! <g>


Fantastic! I love it!!!!!!

[Peter Duniho]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
>> In my experience though, a 5 knot limit is a bit on the low side.
>
> Have you flown a DA20? it has glider wings..

What's the maximum demonstrated crosswind for the DA20?

I realize that the DA20 has a higher aspect ratio wing than similar
airplanes, but with a wing span just under 36' it doesn't have "glider
wings".

> 5knts for first solo may be prudent..
> up to 10knts when ready for the check ride.

Unless the maximum demonstrated crosswind for the DA20 is significantly
lower than that for other airplanes, I see no reason that lower limits
applied to students should not be comparable to those for other airplanes.

Pete

[BucFan]

"nrp" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>A relative is working on a PPL using a Diamond DA20. The FBO has a
> policy of no student solos with more than 5 knots crosswind component.
> Do other FBOs do this? As a result he is having trouble scheduling his
> solo cross countries.
>

The xwind limit at my FBO for student pilots was 8 knots....

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 19:16:48 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>"BT" > wrote in message
...
>>> In my experience though, a 5 knot limit is a bit on the low side.
>>
>> Have you flown a DA20? it has glider wings..
>
>What's the maximum demonstrated crosswind for the DA20?

Which is normally a meaningless figure.
>
>I realize that the DA20 has a higher aspect ratio wing than similar
>airplanes, but with a wing span just under 36' it doesn't have "glider
>wings".
>
>> 5knts for first solo may be prudent..
>> up to 10knts when ready for the check ride.

I'd hate to tell you what the cross winds were at my first landing on
my first long cross country.<:-)) That was a long time ago and I was
not given any limits, but even today, you may be given limits and the
weather may not cooperate.

>
>Unless the maximum demonstrated crosswind for the DA20 is significantly
>lower than that for other airplanes, I see no reason that lower limits

I would agree.
Demonstrated is only 12 knots on the Deb and it's good for 25

>applied to students should not be comparable to those for other airplanes.

Student cross wind components are a different animal.


>
>Pete
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Peter Duniho]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
...
>>What's the maximum demonstrated crosswind for the DA20?
>
> Which is normally a meaningless figure.

It is never a "meaningless" figure. It always means *something*, and the
more effort the aircraft manufacturer puts into it, the more it means.

Curious, I did a quick bit of research. I found that early models (maybe
the Katana? I wasn't looking that closely at the exact model number here)
had a demonstrated crosswind of 15 knots, while the DA20 has a demonstrated
crosswind of 20.

Both numbers are very respectable, and indicate that there is no problem
whatsoever landing the airplane with a crosswind.

> [...]
>>Unless the maximum demonstrated crosswind for the DA20 is significantly
>>lower than that for other airplanes, I see no reason that lower limits
>
> I would agree.
> Demonstrated is only 12 knots on the Deb and it's good for 25
>
>>applied to students should not be comparable to those for other airplanes.
>
> Student cross wind components are a different animal.

Different animal than what?

My point was that the student limits ought to scale just as the demonstrated
limits do. For example, if a limit of 8 knots is appropriate for a student
flying an airplane with a demonstrated crosswind of 16 knots, then 10 knots
might be appropriate as a limit for a student flying an airplane with a
demonstrated crosswind of 20 knots.

The DA20's demonstrated crosswind *exceeds* that of the 172, and I saw one
reference that said that the 150 has a demonstrated crosswind of 12 knots.
Granted, that 12 knots is sure to be *well* below what the 150 is actually
capable of. But even so, with a demonstrated crosswind of 20 knots for the
DA20, there's absolutely no reason to think that one needs to be *more*
conservative with that airplane than with others.

Being less conservative might not be warranted either, but I see no reason
to restrict students more in the DA20 than in other trainers.

Pete

[Thomas Borchert]

Bt,

> Have you flown a DA20?

Yes.

> it has glider wings..

So? (And it doesn't)

> 5knts for first solo may be prudent..
> up to 10knts when ready for the check ride.

BS.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Stefan]

BT schrieb:

> Have you flown a DA20? it has glider wings..

Have *you* flown a DA20? And you obviously never flew a glider.

(Besides, we routinely and successfully land our gliders with
considerable amounts of crosswind.)

Stefan

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-11-07, BT > wrote:
>> In my experience though, a 5 knot limit is a bit on the low side.
>
> Have you flown a DA20? it has glider wings..
> 5knts for first solo may be prudent..
> up to 10knts when ready for the check ride.

I've flown both the DA-20 and the DA-40. The -20 was no more difficult
to handle than a Cessna 150. I thought it had very good habits.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-11-07, Peter Duniho > wrote:
> The DA20's demonstrated crosswind *exceeds* that of the 172, and I saw one
> reference that said that the 150 has a demonstrated crosswind of 12 knots.

As a slight diversion, the Cessna 170 can handle a greater crosswind
than the Cessna 172N, although the pilot of the 170 needs to be
proficient :-)

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> Then they must also be stupid. I can't imagine investing $500,000 into
> airplanes for a next to zero return.

I've known some FBO owners that do exactly that. <G>