joystick

[Jose[_1_]]

I've been using MSFS 2002 to keep my instrument scan up (and sometimes
let my wife fly it; she's my "pinch hitter"). I have an el-cheapo
joystick which is now insisting that the nose shall always be pointed
down. It's a mouse systems bogeyman, and is pretty terrible (though the
price was right).

So, I'm in the market for a new flight controller.

1: Any reccomendations for a good, inexpensive stick?

2: Is force feedback worth the extra money?

3: Is there any reason to consider a yoke?

4: Yes, I know pedals would increase the realism, but that's not really
my aim. That said, are pedals worth it just to keep my scan up to snuff?

5: This is posted in r.a.p only. Is it worth a visit to r.a.sim?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dudley Henriques]

Hi Jose;
I guess I've spent about 10 grand so far on computers and peripherals to
work with Microsoft and the people making add on's for Microsoft Flight
Simulator. :-)
Without getting into it deeply peripheral wise (controllers), for your
purpose of instrument practice, you should do just fine using any medium
quality joystick with a throttle and twist rudder axis. Saitek makes a
fairly decent one you can get at most any computer center.
Stay away from the force feedback controllers. They can and have caused
issues in the program and are not at all realistic.
Dudley Henriques
[MVP]- Microsoft Flight Simulator

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
> I've been using MSFS 2002 to keep my instrument scan up (and sometimes let
> my wife fly it; she's my "pinch hitter"). I have an el-cheapo joystick
> which is now insisting that the nose shall always be pointed down. It's a
> mouse systems bogeyman, and is pretty terrible (though the price was
> right).
>
> So, I'm in the market for a new flight controller.
>
> 1: Any reccomendations for a good, inexpensive stick?
>
> 2: Is force feedback worth the extra money?
>
> 3: Is there any reason to consider a yoke?
>
> 4: Yes, I know pedals would increase the realism, but that's not really
> my aim. That said, are pedals worth it just to keep my scan up to snuff?
>
> 5: This is posted in r.a.p only. Is it worth a visit to r.a.sim?
>
> Jose
> --
> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it
> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> 2: Is force feedback worth the extra money?

Yes! Although for instrument scan proficiency, I don't see why it
would matter.

> 3: Is there any reason to consider a yoke?

I'm sure you know my answer. The addition of a yoke with throttle
quadrant changes EVERYTHING about flying the sim. It's just...more
real.

> 4: Yes, I know pedals would increase the realism, but that's not really
> my aim. That said, are pedals worth it just to keep my scan up to snuff?

For scan purposes, nope. For realism (brakes, steering, slips), yes.

> 5: This is posted in r.a.p only. Is it worth a visit to r.a.sim?

Nope. I posted about The Kiwi in that group a week ago, and I'm still
in the top hand-full of posts. That group is totally dead, obviously
superceded by such web-based sim groups as AvSim. Try there.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Logajan]

Jose > wrote:
> 5: This is posted in r.a.p only. Is it worth a visit to r.a.sim?

Try asking on alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim; it gets on the order of 100
posts a day.

[G. Sylvester]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> 2: Is force feedback worth the extra money?
> Yes! Although for instrument scan proficiency, I don't see why it
> would matter.

I use MSFS and a Saitek 3D Rumble force (just happen to have it out for
proficiency at the moment). I turn off the Rumble. When flying by
instruments, if you even get close to a stall, you're scan has serious
problems (from my limited IFR experience).

>> 3: Is there any reason to consider a yoke?

no.

> I'm sure you know my answer. The addition of a yoke with throttle
> quadrant changes EVERYTHING about flying the sim. It's just...more
> real.

agreed. I wouldn't care what the throttle quadrant looks like but as
long as it has one.

DEFINITELY make sure it usable by your left hand though unless you fly a
stick or flying from the righthand seat. Most joysticks for flying
are setup for flying like a fighter pilot with your right hand on the
yoke.

Some extra buttons are useful too as mouse clicking to hit flaps, trim,
freq. changes, etc. can be difficult at times. I have some of the
million and a half buttons to do such things.

>> 4: Yes, I know pedals would increase the realism, but that's not really
>> my aim. That said, are pedals worth it just to keep my scan up to snuff?
> For scan purposes, nope. For realism (brakes, steering, slips), yes.

agreed. For me, I do the approach and that's about it. I don't worry
about making the hotel guests happy. Oh, wait that's what the big jar
of peanuts are for. ;-)

for the most part any jo

Gerald

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Jose > wrote:
>> 5: This is posted in r.a.p only. Is it worth a visit to r.a.sim?
>
> Try asking on alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim; it gets on the order of 100
> posts a day.


Yep, that's where I go for sim questions. It's very active.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Jay Honeck]

> > Try asking on alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim; it gets on the order of 100
> > posts a day.
>
> Yep, that's where I go for sim questions. It's very active.

Another good tip from this group. Thanks!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>> Jose > wrote:
>>> 5: This is posted in r.a.p only. Is it worth a visit to r.a.sim?
>>
>> Try asking on alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim; it gets on the order of 100
>> posts a day.
>
>
> Yep, that's where I go for sim questions. It's very active.
>

And Manic is about as popular there as he is here. Says a lot for the group.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>> Try asking on alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim; it gets on the order of 100
>>> posts a day.
>>
>> Yep, that's where I go for sim questions. It's very active.
>
> And Manic is about as popular there as he is here. Says a lot for the group.



He doesn't get away with the crap there that they allow him to do here. As a
result, he has a minimal presence there. They've been wise to his trolling ways
for quite a while.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Robert M. Gary]

Not many gamers on this group. Best to try one of the game groups.

-Robert


Jose wrote:
> I've been using MSFS 2002 to keep my instrument scan up (and sometimes
> let my wife fly it; she's my "pinch hitter"). I have an el-cheapo
> joystick which is now insisting that the nose shall always be pointed
> down. It's a mouse systems bogeyman, and is pretty terrible (though the
> price was right).
>
> So, I'm in the market for a new flight controller.
>
> 1: Any reccomendations for a good, inexpensive stick?
>
> 2: Is force feedback worth the extra money?
>
> 3: Is there any reason to consider a yoke?
>
> 4: Yes, I know pedals would increase the realism, but that's not really
> my aim. That said, are pedals worth it just to keep my scan up to snuff?
>
> 5: This is posted in r.a.p only. Is it worth a visit to r.a.sim?
>
> Jose
> --
> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
> it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[LWG]

My vote is to save up a little and get the CH yoke. I downloaded an add-on
which simulates my airplane and panel, and simming is pretty darn close to
real flying. Considering that the yoke (and I got the foot pedals, too, but
they're not as much bang-for-the-buck as the yoke) is the only hardware I
needed to buy specifically for simming, it's a heck of a deal. A good level
of fidelity for $100 for the yoke and $45 for the software is, in my view,
outstanding.

"Jose" > wrote in message
. ..
> I've been using MSFS 2002 to keep my instrument scan up (and sometimes let
> my wife fly it; she's my "pinch hitter"). I have an el-cheapo joystick
> which is now insisting that the nose shall always be pointed down. It's a
> mouse systems bogeyman, and is pretty terrible (though the price was
> right).
>
> So, I'm in the market for a new flight controller.
>
> 1: Any reccomendations for a good, inexpensive stick?
>
> 2: Is force feedback worth the extra money?
>
> 3: Is there any reason to consider a yoke?
>
> 4: Yes, I know pedals would increase the realism, but that's not really
> my aim. That said, are pedals worth it just to keep my scan up to snuff?
>
> 5: This is posted in r.a.p only. Is it worth a visit to r.a.sim?
>
> Jose
> --
> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it
> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Don Byrer]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 03:42:34 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>I've been using MSFS 2002 to keep my instrument scan up (and sometimes
>let my wife fly it; she's my "pinch hitter"). I have an el-cheapo
>joystick which is now insisting that the nose shall always be pointed
>down. It's a mouse systems bogeyman, and is pretty terrible (though the
>price was right).
>

By "Nose Down"...I assumed you meant that you need to keep forward
pressure to maintain level flight?

My first thought was that your joystick doesnt have a trim control,
aka fine adjust or centering controls like the old analog joysticks
had. But I guess most of the newer USB ones don't.

Or MSFS not set up correctly..."Y" sensitivity wrong and you can't
trim it out???

Or you are not setting the trim correctly on the aircraft???...sounds
possible....but you should know 'bout dat.

Or maybe your joystick is ready to buy the farm...

I had a cheap Logitech joystick for awhile with FS 00 and 04....worked
"OK" but it was lightweight and not very stable. Used a friends
Logitech extreme 3D Pro and found it to be much more stable, heavier,
with a bigger base and also has a twist grip. Not too expensive:

http://www.provantage.com/logitech-963290-0403~7LGTC967.htm

Best Buy used to carry these, too.

I bought one for myself but haven't used it yet.

<obiligatory piloting content>
hmm...maybe time to fly some more MSFS 2004 and brush up on my
instrument procedures...


--Don

I
Don Byrer KJ5KB
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Glider & CFI wannabe
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...<smack-smack-smack-smack...>"

[Jose[_1_]]

>> ...which is now insisting that the nose
>> shall always be pointed down.
> By "Nose Down"...I assumed you meant that you need to keep forward
> pressure to maintain level flight?

The reverse. I pull back on the stick and nothing happens. Calibrating
the joystick shows that no matter what I do pitch wise, the signal is
the same - nose full forward. It's an electrical problem in the
joystick. Yesterday I took it apart, saw nothing obviously amiss,
pulled, pushed, and prodded, and put it back together. Now it seems to
work ok, dunno for how long.

Yes, it has made a down payment on the farm.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> My vote is to save up a little and get the CH yoke. I downloaded an add-on
> which simulates my airplane and panel, and simming is pretty darn close to
> real flying. Considering that the yoke (and I got the foot pedals, too, but
> they're not as much bang-for-the-buck as the yoke) is the only hardware I
> needed to buy specifically for simming, it's a heck of a deal. A good level
> of fidelity for $100 for the yoke and $45 for the software is, in my view,
> outstanding.

I can add a bit to this, Jose. Last night was the official "unveiling"
of the Kiwi, and I spent several hours tweaking the system and
downloading enhancements to FS2004 beforehand.

There are several add-on aircraft available on-line -- for FREE -- that
almost perfectly simulate the Pipers I have flown. I found an Archer, a
Warrior, an Arrow, and the AOPA's Sweepstake Cherokee Six on-line, all
for free. (I also found a fantastic Constellation and Stearman, too,
just for fun -- you can find almost any aircraft imaginable.)

With the CH yoke and rudder pedals, surround sound, and a fast PC, it
is now possible to replicate flight with an amazing degree of accuracy.
Nine pilots test flew the rig last night, and it was really fun
standing behind them watching their body language as they "leaned" into
the turns! To a man they all said that it was as real as they had ever
experienced, outside of the cockpit, and non-pilots loved it, too.

Long after everyone went home I found myself shooting the pattern at
(the late, great) Meigs Field. It really did feel like I was back
there in Daley-land...

BTW: I disagree with the assessment that the rudder pedals aren't as
important as the yoke. To me, the main difference was made by the
addition of the pedals, which allow to you realistically slip to land,
and steer/brake on the ground. You can get the yoke and rudder pedals
on-line for just $179.95 as a combo deal. (It's one of the "Buy it
now" auctions on Ebay.) I can't over-state the difference they make to
the sim experience when compared to my old force-feedback joystick.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose[_1_]]

> Last night was the official "unveiling"
> of the Kiwi, and I spent several hours tweaking the system and
> downloading enhancements to FS2004 beforehand.

I'm going to have to see this rig.

> There are several add-on aircraft available on-line -- for FREE -- that
> almost perfectly simulate the Pipers I have flown. I found an Archer, a
> Warrior, an Arrow, and the AOPA's Sweepstake Cherokee Six on-line, all
> for free. (I also found a fantastic Constellation and Stearman, too,
> just for fun -- you can find almost any aircraft imaginable.)

Where? (I know about AOPA's six). I just use the 182 RG that came with
the FS 2002 program - it has a gear lever and cowl flaps to keep in mind.

> With the CH yoke and rudder pedals, surround sound, and a fast PC, it
> is now possible to replicate flight with an amazing degree of accuracy.
> [...]
> Long after everyone went home I found myself shooting the pattern at
> (the late, great) Meigs Field. It really did feel like I was back
> there in Daley-land...

Isn't that what Mx keeps saying? <duck>

> To me, the main difference was made by the
> addition of the pedals, which allow to you realistically slip to land,
> and steer/brake on the ground.

It also would let me take off in a crosswind staying on the runway.

But mainly, I just use it for instrument scan and instrument failure
practice. For the former, are the pedals all that important? (as of
now I don't even have a twist yoke which makes it take longer to make a
tiny course correction, but also makes it imperative I catch a minor
course deviation quickly). I suppose it adds to muscle memory, but if I
fly real airplanes, does it matter much? I just treat the sim as
another "make and model" with different flight and control charactaristics.

> I can't over-state the difference they make to
> the sim experience when compared to my old force-feedback joystick.

I'm less interested (for myself) in the "sim experience" as in the scan
training. Aprpops of that, I am quite impressed at how effective it is,
and how much I've learned just by setting systems to sometimes fail
randomly. And I have found that my best approaches are with failed
instruments.

OTOH, perhaps more realism would get my wife a bit more into it, and
therefore be more sharp as a pinch hitter if necessary. Hmmm.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[john smith]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> I'm less interested (for myself) in the "sim experience" as in the scan
> training. Aprpops of that, I am quite impressed at how effective it is,
> and how much I've learned just by setting systems to sometimes fail
> randomly. And I have found that my best approaches are with failed
> instruments.

105-inch simulated panel is the equivalent to how many inches away from
ones face in reality? :-))

[Blanche]

Jay -- where'd you find the free Archer download?

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Blanche wrote:
> Jay -- where'd you find the free Archer download?


And where's that free Cherokee Six that AOPA keeps talking about? I've been all
over their site and can't seem to find it (and yes, I am a member).




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Scott Skylane]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> Blanche wrote:
>
>>Jay -- where'd you find the free Archer download?
>
>
>
> And where's that free Cherokee Six that AOPA keeps talking about? I've been all
> over their site and can't seem to find it (and yes, I am a member).
>
>
>
>
You're right, it wasn't easy to find, but the AOPA aircraft are
available here:

http://www.aopa.org/sweeps/fly/

Flightsim.com has LOT'S of free downloads, you just need a free
registration to get them.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Viperdoc[_2_]]

Does a joystick really work better than a keyboard? I only fly real
airplanes, but would like to learn about sims. I will ask a lot of
questions, and then be obnoxious to those who respond. I really know a lot
about sims, even though I have never actually tried one.

In fact, I am afraid of flying a sim like MSFS- I think the radiation from
the screen and the prolonged sitting are dangerous. However, I will be sure
to clog the NG with know-it-all responses, even though I have absolutely no
experience compared to virtually everyone else. It is my prerogative to
pretend that I know a lot about everything like medicine, flying, and
photography, even though I really don't do any of these things.

Some day I hope to get a real life and interact normally with people, rather
than a virtual one on the computer.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Sorry, couldn't resist.

That's what one diode said to another.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[john smith]

In article >,
"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> In fact, I am afraid of flying a sim like MSFS- I think the radiation from
> the screen and the prolonged sitting are dangerous.

Time to purchase an LCD monitor. CompUSA has a Viewsonic 22" widescreen
for $299. I bought one a week before the sale at Microcenter and paid
$329. But I am going to get another one tomorrow.
I didn't ask permission from "She who must be obeyed" before I bought
the first one, but I was rewarded with, "You got me a present!"
Funny how things work out sometimes.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jose wrote:
>> Sorry, couldn't resist.
>
> That's what one diode said to another.



Doesn't that depend on which way it was talking?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Jose[_1_]]

> Doesn't that depend on which way it was talking?

Yeah. I figured that for those that would get it, I wouldn't need the
diagram. For those that wouldn't, the diagram wouldn't mean anything.

Jose
--
NO SMOKING! (resistors excepted)
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> The addition of a yoke with throttle quadrant changes
> EVERYTHING about flying the sim. It's just...more
> It's just...more real.

My own el-cheapo joystick has been beaten back into submission and is
working again, at least as well as it had been before (which is not all
that well). But since I'm mostly doing IFR work, the throttle is less
important than the (navigation) radios. I set up the trigger on my yoke
to be "more power" and another button to be "less power". The other two
buttons I've assigned to trim. I leave most of the other geegaws alone
(though I do put the wheels up and down with the mouse) because it takes
too much to (say) mouse over to the carb heat, watch for the + sign,
click it, check that it moved (which it ususally doesn't), try dragging
it (and find I'm dragging the entire window), click it again and find
now it's a - sign and I went the wrong way... meanwhile I'm not scanning.

So yes, I agree that a control quadrant adds a lot to realism and I'll
consider it for my wife. :)

However, =my= big bugaboo is the &*%%^# radios.

Missed approach: GUBER intersection via GXK VOR 239 radial...

Let's see, there's only one VOR/ILS head so I have to switch frequencies
and twist the knob. mouse over to the little icon and click to display
the radio stack (now I can't see the needles). Mouse over and click the
swap button (I preset the freq, imagine if I hadn't), mouse over and
click to monitor the ID, click to hide the stack, mouse over to the OBS
and try to get it to display the + sign, click and wait, watching the
dial go the wrong way. Dammit. Mouse over a little to the left, there
it's a - sign. Click and hold while the OBS slowly comes to the proper
indication.

By this time I've probably crashed, and the %*^& ID is still bleeping in
my ear.

What do you do for nav radio realism? It would make a world of
difference to have a tuning/turning knob on the yoke!

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.