When do controls return to neutral?

[Mxsmanic]

In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural
tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't
holding them and when you are on the ground? Do they have a tendency
to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level
flight?

The reason I ask is that sometimes the controls I use in simulation
don't snap back to exactly neutral when I release them, and I'm trying
to determine whether this is more realistic or less realistic with
respect to a real aircaft.

I suppose it depends on the aircraft, but what is the usual case? And
if you happen to know how it behaves specifically on a Baron or an
A36, I'd be particularly interested to know that.

--
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[Robert M. Gary]

Usually, in a non-aerobatic plane, ailerons and rudder will return
close to neutral. Elevator will go to its trim position. Several of the
classic planes I've flow do not have this tendency, so it really can go
either way, but most planes today are designed to be easy to fly.

-Robert, CFII

Mxsmanic wrote:
> In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural
> tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't
> holding them and when you are on the ground? Do they have a tendency
> to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level
> flight?
>
> The reason I ask is that sometimes the controls I use in simulation
> don't snap back to exactly neutral when I release them, and I'm trying
> to determine whether this is more realistic or less realistic with
> respect to a real aircaft.
>
> I suppose it depends on the aircraft, but what is the usual case? And
> if you happen to know how it behaves specifically on a Baron or an
> A36, I'd be particularly interested to know that.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Usually, in a non-aerobatic plane, ailerons and rudder will return
> close to neutral. Elevator will go to its trim position. Several of the
> classic planes I've flow do not have this tendency, so it really can go
> either way, but most planes today are designed to be easy to fly.

Is there any tendency for the control surfaces to set in positions
slightly off neutral? For example, if you have to use rudder a lot to
counter torque on every flight, is there any tendency of the rudder
over time to stay a little bit on that side?

My joystick seems to do this, very slightly, and since it is
mechanical like control surfaces, I wonder if things like a rudder
might do the same. Not a very big deflection, of course, but enough
that you might notice it in otherwise perfect level flight (although
with the engine running, I suppose there would always be torque acting
more strongly in the opposite direction, so how would you know?).

--
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[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
> Is there any tendency for the control surfaces to set in positions
> slightly off neutral? For example, if you have to use rudder a lot to
> counter torque on every flight, is there any tendency of the rudder
> over time to stay a little bit on that side?

Usage doesn't cause this. However with age sometimes a plane doesn't
fly as straight as it used to. If the plane isn't flying straight (i.e.
the ball isn't in the middle when you take your feet off the rudders)
you can adjust it. On my plane there is a bolt that adjust the throw
but a lot of planes just have metal trim tabs.
What you are asking about is referred to as "rigging" and is one of the
great dark arts in aviation. The manual will tell you how to do it but
only a few really good A&P's can really get your bird (especially a
more complex one like mine) to fly straight. Right now my plane slips
to the right about 1/2 ball when I put the gear out. Not sure why, it
didn't used to. With rigging you usually want to seek out an A&P
familiar with your plane (especially if you have rigging wires, don't
ever let a generic A&P touch rigging wires if you fly a classic).
-Robert

[john smith]

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > Robert M. Gary writes:
> > Is there any tendency for the control surfaces to set in positions
> > slightly off neutral? For example, if you have to use rudder a lot to
> > counter torque on every flight, is there any tendency of the rudder
> > over time to stay a little bit on that side?
>
> Usage doesn't cause this. However with age sometimes a plane doesn't
> fly as straight as it used to. If the plane isn't flying straight (i.e.
> the ball isn't in the middle when you take your feet off the rudders)
> you can adjust it. On my plane there is a bolt that adjust the throw
> but a lot of planes just have metal trim tabs.
> What you are asking about is referred to as "rigging" and is one of the
> great dark arts in aviation. The manual will tell you how to do it but
> only a few really good A&P's can really get your bird (especially a
> more complex one like mine) to fly straight. Right now my plane slips
> to the right about 1/2 ball when I put the gear out. Not sure why, it
> didn't used to. With rigging you usually want to seek out an A&P
> familiar with your plane (especially if you have rigging wires, don't
> ever let a generic A&P touch rigging wires if you fly a classic).

Aircraft without adjustable rudder trim have a ground adjustable piece
of metal (a "tab") attached to the trailing edge of the rudder. This tab
is bent at an angle to the plane of the rudder so that the aircraft will
fly with no yaw (theoretically) at "cruise" speed. Change the airspeed
and the aircraft will yaw right or left.

[EridanMan]

Yeah - essentially what you're talking about is the fundamental point
of trim devices on modern aircraft.

Neutral position is a bit of a 'bad' term here, because unlike a
simulator's joystick, there is no defined "Central" location for a
yoke. Yes, of course wing's level is fairly 'central', but for rudder
and elevator, there is quite a bit of play as to where 'neutral' is
(where neutral is fundamentally defined as the point at which the
controls naturally go when you apply no force to them).

The "neutral point" described above is is set by your trimming
mechanisms. In my PA-28-140, I have 3 mechanisms to trim the plane - I
have the pitch trim handle, I have a rudder trim mechanism (which
actually just manipulates the pedals) and I have the ability to control
my fuel burn on one side or the other to trim for roll.

This is one of the areas where flying a real plane is fundamentally
different than flying with a computer joystick. with a computer
joystick, there is always a "center point", and trim is simulated by
having the aircraft turn to one side or the other while the joystick is
in the center point. In a real aircraft, the physical point where the
control's center themselves varies based on trim, but AOA effect of
having the controls at any given point is usually the same. (I.E,
having the yoke 3" out from the panel will try to move the aircraft
towards the same AOA, regardless if this is 'trimmed as neutral' and I
can take my hand off, or the aircraft is trimmed for another speed and
the yoke is pushing against my hand).

Also note that this is all very delibrate- The anti-servo tab on a
PA-28's tail is explicitly designed to provide this very type of
tactile feedback - that's its whole point.


On Nov 7, 3:18 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural
> tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't
> holding them and when you are on the ground? Do they have a tendency
> to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level
> flight?
>
> The reason I ask is that sometimes the controls I use in simulation
> don't snap back to exactly neutral when I release them, and I'm trying
> to determine whether this is more realistic or less realistic with
> respect to a real aircaft.
>
> I suppose it depends on the aircraft, but what is the usual case? And
> if you happen to know how it behaves specifically on a Baron or an
> A36, I'd be particularly interested to know that.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 00:18:15 +0100, Mxsmanic > wrote:

>In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural
>tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't
>holding them and when you are on the ground?

Generally, no. The weight of the elevators usually put them in the full-down
position. Ailerons may be one way or the other, depending upon the wind, as
will the rudder. Rudders often have springs associated with them (via the
nosewheel or tailwheel controls) and have a better tendency to go back to
near-zero.

> Do they have a tendency to return to exactly neutral in flight if you
> release them in level flight?

Depends on how you define "neutral." If you define "neutral" as "faired with
the airfoil they're part of" the answer depends on the loading and trim
condition of the aircraft. If you define "neutral" as "in position for straight
and level flight," the answer is, "generally no," depending, again, on the
loading and trim condition. If you define "neutral" as "least pressure on the
controls," the answer is, "always."

Keep in mind that most airplanes do not have cockpit indication of control
position. We can look towards the wing and make a pretty good estimate of the
aileron position, but the elevators and rudders aren't easily visible from the
cockpit of many airplanes. Even those planes where they are visible, you're
looking at them from such an angle where the precise position (e.g, zero degrees
vs. 5 degrees) is difficult to determine.

My airplane has differential gearing on the ailerons (downgoing aileron doesn't
move as far as the upgoing one) so despite having a good view, it makes it a bit
more complicated.


Ron Wanttaja

[VH-UNR]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> In a typical small GA aircraft, do the controls have a natural
> tendency to return exactly to their neutral positions when you aren't
> holding them and when you are on the ground? Do they have a tendency
> to return to exactly neutral in flight if you release them in level
> flight?
>
> The reason I ask is that sometimes the controls I use in simulation
> don't snap back to exactly neutral when I release them, and I'm trying
> to determine whether this is more realistic or less realistic with
> respect to a real aircaft.
>
> I suppose it depends on the aircraft, but what is the usual case? And
> if you happen to know how it behaves specifically on a Baron or an
> A36, I'd be particularly interested to know that.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.



Its different for every aircraft. Generally cessnas mooneys and pipers
will return to neutral on the rudder and elevators but the aleirons
will go to trim setting. Some other aircraft will stay at last input
position, or "positive"

[Jim Macklin]

If it slips with gear extended, probably a door is not
aligned and is acting as a rudder.



"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| Mxsmanic wrote:
| > Robert M. Gary writes:
| > Is there any tendency for the control surfaces to set in
positions
| > slightly off neutral? For example, if you have to use
rudder a lot to
| > counter torque on every flight, is there any tendency of
the rudder
| > over time to stay a little bit on that side?
|
| Usage doesn't cause this. However with age sometimes a
plane doesn't
| fly as straight as it used to. If the plane isn't flying
straight (i.e.
| the ball isn't in the middle when you take your feet off
the rudders)
| you can adjust it. On my plane there is a bolt that adjust
the throw
| but a lot of planes just have metal trim tabs.
| What you are asking about is referred to as "rigging" and
is one of the
| great dark arts in aviation. The manual will tell you how
to do it but
| only a few really good A&P's can really get your bird
(especially a
| more complex one like mine) to fly straight. Right now my
plane slips
| to the right about 1/2 ball when I put the gear out. Not
sure why, it
| didn't used to. With rigging you usually want to seek out
an A&P
| familiar with your plane (especially if you have rigging
wires, don't
| ever let a generic A&P touch rigging wires if you fly a
classic).
| -Robert
|

[Mxsmanic]

EridanMan writes:

> Neutral position is a bit of a 'bad' term here, because unlike a
> simulator's joystick, there is no defined "Central" location for a
> yoke. Yes, of course wing's level is fairly 'central', but for rudder
> and elevator, there is quite a bit of play as to where 'neutral' is
> (where neutral is fundamentally defined as the point at which the
> controls naturally go when you apply no force to them).

I was kind of thinking along those lines. So I presume that I need
not fret about not necessarily having an obvious neutral position in
the sim. If I understand correctly, in a real aircraft, it all just
depends on circumstances, and you don't have to know or care about any
"exact" neutral (?).

> The "neutral point" described above is is set by your trimming
> mechanisms. In my PA-28-140, I have 3 mechanisms to trim the plane - I
> have the pitch trim handle, I have a rudder trim mechanism (which
> actually just manipulates the pedals) and I have the ability to control
> my fuel burn on one side or the other to trim for roll.

Do you have a marked "zero point" for the trim, or do you just trim
until it feels right for the circumstances, and then trim again the
next time as required, without worrying about whether the trim is
truly "zero" or not?

> This is one of the areas where flying a real plane is fundamentally
> different than flying with a computer joystick. with a computer
> joystick, there is always a "center point", and trim is simulated by
> having the aircraft turn to one side or the other while the joystick is
> in the center point. In a real aircraft, the physical point where the
> control's center themselves varies based on trim, but AOA effect of
> having the controls at any given point is usually the same. (I.E,
> having the yoke 3" out from the panel will try to move the aircraft
> towards the same AOA, regardless if this is 'trimmed as neutral' and I
> can take my hand off, or the aircraft is trimmed for another speed and
> the yoke is pushing against my hand).

So in a real aircraft, a different trim position also represents a
different yoke position? That seems logical.

I wonder how fly-by-wire aircraft handle this.

> Also note that this is all very delibrate- The anti-servo tab on a
> PA-28's tail is explicitly designed to provide this very type of
> tactile feedback - that's its whole point.

I read that a drawback to Cirrus aircraft is that they use springs for
feedback, so it's hard to tell where the control surfaces actually
are.

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[Mxsmanic]

Ron Wanttaja writes:

> Generally, no. The weight of the elevators usually put them in the full-down
> position.

Does this effect disappear before you are moving fast enough for the
elevators to affect the aircraft's attitude?

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[john smith]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Do you have a marked "zero point" for the trim, or do you just trim
> until it feels right for the circumstances, and then trim again the
> next time as required, without worrying about whether the trim is
> truly "zero" or not?

There are marks/indicators, however they are mechanical pointers which
are subject to deviation. In actuallity, yes, you move the trim control
until the pressure is neutralized (in the case of elevator for the the
speed and power setting, and for rudder until the yaw ball is centered).

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Do you have a marked "zero point" for the trim, or do you just trim
> until it feels right for the circumstances, and then trim again the
> next time as required, without worrying about whether the trim is
> truly "zero" or not?

Most aircraft have an index mark for "Take-Off" trim position. I'm pretty
damn sure that MSFS shows this index mark as well.

[EridanMan]

> If I understand correctly, in a real aircraft, it all just
> depends on circumstances, and you don't have to know or care about any
> "exact" neutral (?).

Essentially, yes. real aircraft controls have the points that they go
when you apply zero force to them. In general, you trim such that
these points of zero force correspond to the aircraft flying straight
and and level at the altitude, speed and power setting of your
choosing.

Understand that most trim settings (especially pitch-wise) only
correspond to one particular speed (and to a lesser excent altitude)
configuration. That is, lets say I trim for 110 knots at 4000 feet,
75% power, and fly hands off for a bit. now - if I pull back on the
yoke, i'll trade some of my airspeed for climb ("zoom climb")... the
further I get off my "target" speed, the greater the yoke is going to
push against my hands... now - the "weird" thing (not really when you
think about the physics, but certainly not intuitive to sim-drivers) is
that if I then decide to release the yoke, the aircraft will
_completely automatically_ return to its trimmed airspeed, and pretty
close to its original altitude.

It actually won't go straight to the trimmed altitude and airspeed,
it'll do a number of oscilations faster and slower than the trimmed
speed until it ends up back to where it was trimmed for. That is why
flying with the trim is generally a bad idea - fly with the yoke, trim
off the preassure = flying precisely.

(also, just so there is no confusion, this has NOTHING to do with an
autopilot, my aircraft doesn't have one - its simply the way the shape
of the airplane is designed to interact with the airflow).

> Do you have a marked "zero point" for the trim,

There is a "takeoff point" for the trim system, generally set to
provide good yoke feel for Vy climbout. Once you are climbing however,
trim is completely relative. There's generally no "Move the trim lever
this much to change trim X mph"... That is a fundamentally backwards
way of thinking. Once you are airborne, simply use the yoke to SET the
aircraft off of its currently trimmed configuration, and then use the
trim controls to adjust the trim configuration to the current
configuration- that is really most of flying.

> or do you just trim
> until it feels right for the circumstances, and then trim again the
> next time as required, without worrying about whether the trim is
> truly "zero" or not?

Bingo - that's it exactly.

> So in a real aircraft, a different trim position also represents a
> different yoke position? That seems logical.
>
> I wonder how fly-by-wire aircraft handle this.

There was some discussion on A.net about this - Boeing goes to great
lengths in their FBW systems to keep the 'feel' of traditional
hydrolics, trim and everything. Airbus, on the other hand, just has
the aircraft automatically and always trim for 1-G flight.

I.E, the airbus actually flies more like your flight simulator than my
Piper;)

> I read that a drawback to Cirrus aircraft is that they use springs for
> feedback, so it's hard to tell where the control surfaces actually
> are.

I haven't read that either way - but I think you over-estimate the
necessity of knowing where your control's "really" are.

Everything in flying is relative, from the moment you take off, you're
changing from one configuration to another - not simply "setting"
configurations- your control inputs are thus always relative.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Ron Wanttaja writes:
>
> > Generally, no. The weight of the elevators usually put them in the full-down
> > position.
>
> Does this effect disappear before you are moving fast enough for the
> elevators to affect the aircraft's attitude?

On the ground the ailerons tend to flop around whereever you turn them.
They also flop in the wind a lot (which is why you tie them down). Once
you start rolling and air goes over them they (in modern, non-aerobatic
planes) tend to return to center, like a car's wheel.
On some planes the elevator rests full forward on the ground and takes
a bit of strength to hold them in any other position, however once
moving they go to their trim position. Older Bonanza's are an example
of this, they have "heavy" controls on the ground but are nice and
smooth in flight. The Mooney elevator is a very different creature so
it works differently. Rudders always wants to go what ever position the
nose wheel is in on the ground because of spings that connect the wheel
with the ailerons.
BTW: On high performance planes moving the rudders also moves the
ailerons because they are interconnected to create smoother turns.
Slipping requires working against the springs and requires a little bit
more strength than on a C-172.

-Robert

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> Most aircraft have an index mark for "Take-Off" trim position. I'm pretty
> damn sure that MSFS shows this index mark as well.

It does on some aircraft, but for things like that one cannot be sure
if the sim is duplicating the real aircraft or just providing an
indicator for convenience (because there are no other ways to get the
information in simulation). On the Baron I usually fly it appears to
be the real thing, and there's a range shown for take-off, although I
still take off with the trim set to zero.

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[Mxsmanic]

EridanMan writes:

> That is, lets say I trim for 110 knots at 4000 feet,
> 75% power, and fly hands off for a bit. now - if I pull back on the
> yoke, i'll trade some of my airspeed for climb ("zoom climb")... the
> further I get off my "target" speed, the greater the yoke is going to
> push against my hands... now - the "weird" thing (not really when you
> think about the physics, but certainly not intuitive to sim-drivers) is
> that if I then decide to release the yoke, the aircraft will
> _completely automatically_ return to its trimmed airspeed, and pretty
> close to its original altitude.

The sim behaves the same way, but without any control forces as
feedback. However, it is indeed counter-intuitive at first. It
dawned on me quickly enough why this is so, but initially one tends to
think that an aircraft will go straight into the ground once it is
pointed down, or infinitely high once it is pointed up. (Thinking a
bit about the laws of physics rapidly shows that this cannot be the
case, but the influence of popular notions is strong.)

> That is why
> flying with the trim is generally a bad idea - fly with the yoke, trim
> off the preassure = flying precisely.

It's the latter part that's hard to simulate.

What I sometimes do is set the autopilot for my altitude, let it set
the trim (which it does with much greater precision than I have
available to me), and then shut it back off, with the aircraft trimmed
for my current altitude. If I'm on A/P for a long time and I wish to
fly with it off, I adjust power until the A/P has trim set to zero,
then I shut off the autopilot. This gives me a stable aircraft with
neutral trim, which insures that I have full control authority in both
directions. (If I were to shut off the A/P while it has heavy trim in
place, I might not have the authority I need later, unless I carefully
retrim myself, which is awkward for reasons I have already stated.)

> There is a "takeoff point" for the trim system, generally set to
> provide good yoke feel for Vy climbout.

I see that on several aircraft in the sim. I don't use take-off trim
because I don't want to be misled into thinking that I have more climb
ability than I actually have. By leaving trim neutral I can tell how
much I have to persuade the aircraft to climb, and so I have less
chance of an unpleasant surprise if I need more elevator authority.

> Once you are airborne, simply use the yoke to SET the
> aircraft off of its currently trimmed configuration, and then use the
> trim controls to adjust the trim configuration to the current
> configuration- that is really most of flying.

I try to do this. It's awkward with no feedback, but it's still
possible from watching the instruments. And the better I know a given
aircraft, the better I can estimate how much to change things to get
it trimmed quickly.

Still, I don't think I trim nearly as much as many real-world pilots.
Unless I plan to be in the same attitude for quite some time, I leave
the trim alone. I especially worry about it being a distraction
during critical phases of flight--spinning the trim wheel while I
should be looking at instruments or talking to ATC seems risky. And
from what I understand, the only advantage of trim is that it
eliminates excess control pressures ... but I can tolerate those for
the brief period of take-off and landing.

> There was some discussion on A.net about this - Boeing goes to great
> lengths in their FBW systems to keep the 'feel' of traditional
> hydrolics, trim and everything. Airbus, on the other hand, just has
> the aircraft automatically and always trim for 1-G flight.

Another reason to prefer Boeing. Boeing designs for pilots; Airbus
designs for computer gamers.

> I.E, the airbus actually flies more like your flight simulator than my
> Piper;)

See above (I wrote the above before reading this).

> I haven't read that either way - but I think you over-estimate the
> necessity of knowing where your control's "really" are.

Maybe. I guess it's from association with other types of vehicles.
One doesn't set a car to veer consistently to the right, for example,
but cars don't move in three dimensions.

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[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> On the ground the ailerons tend to flop around whereever you turn them.
> They also flop in the wind a lot (which is why you tie them down). Once
> you start rolling and air goes over them they (in modern, non-aerobatic
> planes) tend to return to center, like a car's wheel.

And does this happen before you actually have enough control authority
to use the ailerons, or roughly at the same time that you have that
authority? I'm wondering if the airspeed sufficient to "neutralize"
the surfaces is lower than the airspeed necessary to make them useful
for controlling the aircraft.

> BTW: On high performance planes moving the rudders also moves the
> ailerons because they are interconnected to create smoother turns.
> Slipping requires working against the springs and requires a little bit
> more strength than on a C-172.

FWIW, I successfully slipped the Baron yesterday, I think. Being at
about 6500 feet for a runway only a mile or so away at 30 feet, I was
able to lose thousands of feet fairly quickly by slipping. The
aircraft in the sim seemed to behave just as I've heard it described
for slips in real life.

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[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
> > On the ground the ailerons tend to flop around whereever you turn them.
> > They also flop in the wind a lot (which is why you tie them down). Once
> > you start rolling and air goes over them they (in modern, non-aerobatic
> > planes) tend to return to center, like a car's wheel.
>
> And does this happen before you actually have enough control authority
> to use the ailerons, or roughly at the same time that you have that
> authority? I'm wondering if the airspeed sufficient to "neutralize"
> the surfaces is lower than the airspeed necessary to make them useful
> for controlling the aircraft.

I don't know, I never tried to let go of the ailerons during take off.
I'm sure it happens pretty quick though.
-Robert

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 19:08:40 +0100, Mxsmanic > wrote:

>Ron Wanttaja writes:
>
>> Generally, no. The weight of the elevators usually put them in the full-down
>> position.
>
>Does this effect disappear before you are moving fast enough for the
>elevators to affect the aircraft's attitude?

Beats the heck out of me....the only way to know would be to *not hold* the
stick during the takeoff roll.

It's a moot point, since I usually keep the elevators full down for the initial
part of the takeoff roll. Gravity is already putting the stick where I want it.
In any case, the mechanical advantage is good enough that holding the stick all
the way back isn't any strain.

IIRC, there was a French observation plane in the early days of WWI that didn't
have cables to pull the ailerons both ways. The ailerons drooped all the way on
the ground, and gradually came to a faired position as the plane accelerated for
flight. Moving the stick just pulled an aileron back down; the one on the
opposite side didn't go up. Sort of an inverse spoiler for roll control.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mxsmanic]

Ron Wanttaja writes:

> It's a moot point, since I usually keep the elevators full down for the initial
> part of the takeoff roll.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of this? Clearly, it keeps
the aircraft from leaving the ground, but other than that, what are
the pros and cons? Does it put stress on the nose gear?

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[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Ron Wanttaja writes:
>
> > It's a moot point, since I usually keep the elevators full down for the initial
> > part of the takeoff roll.
>
> What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?

Lack of tailwheel training, laziness, etc.

-Robert, CFII

[john smith]

In article >,
T o d d P a t t i s t > wrote:

> I use full down elevator in my Champ during takeoff. It has
> a tailwheel, and the purpose is to get the tail up quickly
> and get the nose down to normal flying attitude. The rudder
> is effective, so I'm not very worried about yawing in a
> crosswind gust. I don't want to get launched into the air
> with a high angle of attack at low speed. The Champ
> accelerates faster when it's in a normal flying attitude
> with the tail up.

The Champ takes off perfectly fine with the stick neutral on takeoff.
In fact, the three point take off can actually be shorter than tailwheel
up takeoffs.

[Robert M. Gary]

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
> john smith > wrote:
>
> >The Champ takes off perfectly fine with the stick neutral on takeoff.
>
> I find with a passenger in the back that stick forward gets
> me up on the wheels, while neutral leaves the tail down for
> far longer.
>

Most of my time is Chief rather than Camp (although I do have about 20
hrs of Champ). By myself the plane takes off from the grass quiet well
from the 3 pt. With a pax I find I need to bring the tail up about a
foot to gain speed necessary to get off the grass.
BTW: In some tailwheel planes, moving the stick full forward
disconnects the tailwheel steering and allows castering, not a good
idea on takeoff roll.

-Robert, CFII

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:36:36 +0100, Mxsmanic > wrote:

>Ron Wanttaja writes:
>
>> It's a moot point, since I usually keep the elevators full down for the initial
>> part of the takeoff roll.
>
>What are the advantages and disadvantages of this? Clearly, it keeps
>the aircraft from leaving the ground, but other than that, what are
>the pros and cons? Does it put stress on the nose gear?

Taildragger aircraft; no nose gear.

Due to poor forward visibility, I like to get the tail off the ground as early
as possible. Here's a video of the takeoff, shot from an aft-mounted camera on
the axle:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/takeoff-tail.mpg

Once the tailwheel is off the ground, you can see it turn left and right as I
keep the plane tracking (sorta) straight using the rudder (to which the
tailwheel is connected via springs). You can make out the elevator position,
too.

Ron Wanttaja