license woes

[gen]

Hi,

I wonder if I can borrow your wisdom here. I tried to convert a foreign
private pilot license to a US one, and hit a wall.

On 9/5, I applied for a conversion of Japanese glider license to a
US one at San Jose FSDO. On the application form, I disclosed that
I had a US ASEL license, and even verbally pointed it out when asked.
Then, they did issue me a US glider license. I brought it back home
happily, joined a flight club and did BFR on 9/9, and flew every
weekend since then.
However, on 9/25, they sent me a letter saying that they issued me
the license by mistake. According to them, they shouldn't have issued
the license because I have a US private pilot ASEL license
(14 CFR 61.75(b)(3)).

Not only I cannot fly, I had to leave the club because it required at
least private pilot license to be a member of.

Here is the law.

§ 61.75 Private pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign
pilot license.
(b) Certificate issued. A U.S. private pilot certificate that is
issued under this section shall specify the person's foreign license
number and country of issuance. A person who holds a current
foreign pilot license issued by a contracting State to the Convention

on International Civil Aviation may be issued a private pilot
certificate based on the foreign pilot license without any further
showing of proficiency, provided the applicant:
(3) Does not currently hold a U.S. pilot certificate;

Here are the licenses I have, and year I obtained them.

1989 Private Pilot glider (Japan)
1992 Private Pilot ASEL (US)
1992 CFI rating on glider (Japan)
1992 Private Pilot ASEL (Japan)

To summarize the discussion with FAA officers, I have a few options.

1) Surrender the US ASEL license, and FAA will immediately
issue me a US glider private license because 61.75(b)(3) no longer
applies. This idea was actually suggested by multiple FAA officers,

so I'm sure this works. Not too attractive, though.

2) Invent a time machine, go back to 8/13/1992 12:00am, drive up to
a small motel near Jefferson County airport in Colorado, and slip in
the following note under the door of the room I was staying.

Dear Gen,

Apply for the conversion of your Japanese glider license before
you take ASEL checkride tomorrow. It's free, and there is no
chance it is denied. This will save you a lot of hassle in your
future.

Truly yours,

Then, I will have both US glider license (based on Japanese one)
and US ASEL license now. FAA will not revoke the glider license
even after I obtain US ASEL. The order of application makes
difference.
I wish I applied, but I never thought having a US license becomes
disadvantage..

3) Take a checkride, and add glider rating on my existing US private
pilot license. Though this is the cleanest option, this is the most
expensive option. It costs more than $1000 (exam fee, aircraft
rental, tow fee, etc.) on top of $500 I already spent on BFR of the
mistakenly issued license. I wish they didn't issue me the license
in the first place.

So, my questions are:

- Does anyone know the background 14 CFR 61.75(b)(3) was
established for? (I asked FAA officers, but nobody knew.)
- What is the appropriate process to appeal for an exception?
- Any other idea to get a glider license issued?

Thanks,
-Gen

[Peter[_1_]]

Yup, i figured out that the process is what you say.

I have a UK glider license, I initiall (6 years ago) was able to go to the
San Jose FSDO and get a temporary US glider license with the additional
limitation of my UK glider licence.

That worked fine until i got my US ASEL rating, at which point the
temporary US Glider private rating was no longer valid and I had to go
through a full training and checkride process (no written as I'd only
finished my ASEL about 18 months earlier), I took the absolute minimum
required training and solo flights etc and passed first time, so
additional cost was only around $1500, but to be honest I did learn some
things that the UK licence would not have prepared me for, I think it was
worth it.

If you are looking for a small club to do this at cheaply in the Bay Area,
I recommend the Northeren California Soaring Association that fly out of
Byron. http://norcalsoaring.org/

I got my Glider rating addon and I'm now waiting for the updated licence
to appear back in the post.. .its been nearly the three months that the
temporary licence the examiner gave me is valid for... if I don't have my
licence back by the end of November I'm grounded due to my temporary
licence no longer being valid...

The US buraucracy amazes me sometimes...

Don't get me started on the whole Visa and Greencard issues, thats been
a weight around my neck for 6 years now too...

Good luck with your training and checkride..

Peter

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 21:13:15 -0800, gen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I wonder if I can borrow your wisdom here. I tried to convert a foreign
> private pilot license to a US one, and hit a wall.
>
> On 9/5, I applied for a conversion of Japanese glider license to a
> US one at San Jose FSDO. On the application form, I disclosed that
> I had a US ASEL license, and even verbally pointed it out when asked.
> Then, they did issue me a US glider license. I brought it back home
> happily, joined a flight club and did BFR on 9/9, and flew every
> weekend since then.
> However, on 9/25, they sent me a letter saying that they issued me
> the license by mistake. According to them, they shouldn't have issued
> the license because I have a US private pilot ASEL license
> (14 CFR 61.75(b)(3)).
>
> Not only I cannot fly, I had to leave the club because it required at
> least private pilot license to be a member of.
>
> Here is the law.
>
> § 61.75 Private pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign
> pilot license.
> (b) Certificate issued. A U.S. private pilot certificate that is
> issued under this section shall specify the person's foreign license
> number and country of issuance. A person who holds a current
> foreign pilot license issued by a contracting State to the Convention
>
> on International Civil Aviation may be issued a private pilot
> certificate based on the foreign pilot license without any further
> showing of proficiency, provided the applicant:
> (3) Does not currently hold a U.S. pilot certificate;
>
> Here are the licenses I have, and year I obtained them.
>
> 1989 Private Pilot glider (Japan)
> 1992 Private Pilot ASEL (US)
> 1992 CFI rating on glider (Japan)
> 1992 Private Pilot ASEL (Japan)
>
> To summarize the discussion with FAA officers, I have a few options.
>
> 1) Surrender the US ASEL license, and FAA will immediately
> issue me a US glider private license because 61.75(b)(3) no longer
> applies. This idea was actually suggested by multiple FAA officers,
>
> so I'm sure this works. Not too attractive, though.
>
> 2) Invent a time machine, go back to 8/13/1992 12:00am, drive up to
> a small motel near Jefferson County airport in Colorado, and slip in
> the following note under the door of the room I was staying.
>
> Dear Gen,
>
> Apply for the conversion of your Japanese glider license before
> you take ASEL checkride tomorrow. It's free, and there is no
> chance it is denied. This will save you a lot of hassle in your
> future.
>
> Truly yours,
>
> Then, I will have both US glider license (based on Japanese one)
> and US ASEL license now. FAA will not revoke the glider license
> even after I obtain US ASEL. The order of application makes
> difference.
> I wish I applied, but I never thought having a US license becomes
> disadvantage..
>
> 3) Take a checkride, and add glider rating on my existing US private
> pilot license. Though this is the cleanest option, this is the most
> expensive option. It costs more than $1000 (exam fee, aircraft
> rental, tow fee, etc.) on top of $500 I already spent on BFR of the
> mistakenly issued license. I wish they didn't issue me the license
> in the first place.
>
> So, my questions are:
>
> - Does anyone know the background 14 CFR 61.75(b)(3) was
> established for? (I asked FAA officers, but nobody knew.)
> - What is the appropriate process to appeal for an exception?
> - Any other idea to get a glider license issued?
>
> Thanks,
> -Gen

[gen]

Peter wrote:
> That worked fine until i got my US ASEL rating, at which point the
> temporary US Glider private rating was no longer valid and I had to go
> through a full training and checkride process (no written as I'd only

That's strange. An inspector at San Jose FSDO told me that, if you had
converted a foreign license before you took any US pilot license, it
will continue to be valid even after you took US pilot license. Does UK
license expire every xx years?

-Gen

[flying_monkey[_1_]]

Gen,

> 3) Take a checkride, and add glider rating on my existing US private
> pilot license. Though this is the cleanest option, this is the most
> expensive option. It costs more than $1000 (exam fee, aircraft
> rental, tow fee, etc.) on top of $500 I already spent on BFR of the
> mistakenly issued license. I wish they didn't issue me the license
> in the first place.
>

Seems you're making too big a deal out of this option. Look at the
requirements you have to meet:

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.
(f) For a glider category rating.
(2) If the applicant has logged at least 40 hours of flight time in a
heavier-than-air aircraft, the applicant must log at least 3 hours of
flight time in a glider in the areas of operation listed in
§61.107(b)(6) of this part, and that flight time must include at
least-
(i) 10 solo flights in a glider in the areas of operation listed in
§61.107(b)(6) of this part; and
(ii) 3 training flights in a glider with an authorized instructor in
preparation for the practical test that must have been performed within
the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.

Since you have PP ASEL, you certainly meet the requirements of
(2). No doubt you have the flights and hours for (i) in your logbook.
Nothing in this says that the instruction or flight must be in the US,
or by a US instructor.
I'd go back and explain all this to the instructor who gave
you the BFR (I hope it was done in the last 60 days). I'd expect that
the BFR would have covered 3 flights and everything required by (ii).
He should just add to the endorsement that the instruction met this
part. Then take the checkride. I can't see that costing $1000, if it
does, you need a different club. Yep, you'll be out the examiner fee,
the glider rental, and a few tows. Nothing to do about that. But that
would get you back flying.

Good luck,
Ed

[snoop]

Peter wrote:
>
> The US buraucracy amazes me sometimes...
>
> Don't get me started on the whole Visa and Greencard issues, thats been
> a weight around my neck for 6 years now too...
>
> Good luck with your training and checkride..
>
> Peter
>

Snoop wrote:

Then explain to me why everyone comes to the colonies for inexpensive
flight instruction? And flying jobs?

There is an easy solution to remove that weight from your neck.

Adios,

Snoop

[[email protected]]

Peter--

If your temporaty certificate is about to expire just call the local
FSDO and request that they issue another temporary to cover the gap
until you get the permanent certificate. This was common a few years
ago, but recently the FAA has been faster mailing out the permanent
certificates.

You should have no problem, and a phone call should be all that is
required.

Good Luck--

Skip Guimond

[Mike the Strike]

I had some issues in the US with a foreign licence conversion also and
can confirm that adding a glider rating to an existing SEL is perhaps
the easiest path.

Mike

[gen]

Ed,

> Since you have PP ASEL, you certainly meet the requirements of
> (2). No doubt you have the flights and hours for (i) in your logbook.
> Nothing in this says that the instruction or flight must be in the US,
> or by a US instructor.

I have 2000 flights and 400 hours in glider, so experience-wise I meet
the requirement except for "three flights with instructor within 60
days prior to the exam".

> part. Then take the checkride. I can't see that costing $1000, if it
> does, you need a different club. Yep, you'll be out the examiner fee,
> the glider rental, and a few tows. Nothing to do about that. But that

Tow and aircraft rental isn't cheap here in bay area. I wouldn't go in
too much detail, but let me put it in this way; I spent $500 on BFR,
and expected it to be an investment over 2 years. The license
disappeared in 3 weeks. My family wouldn't be too happy if I'm going to
spend additional $1000 on a license.

-Gen

[Mike the Strike]

You have two choices - surrender your existing US SEL certificate or
add a glider rating to it. It's pointless to try to get an exception,
which could take years and probably wouldn't succeed.

Only you can decide which is the most attractive alternative - pay the
money or shred your old certificate.

Mike

[BB]

>
> 1989 Private Pilot glider (Japan)
> 1992 Private Pilot ASEL (US)
> 1992 CFI rating on glider (Japan)
> 1992 Private Pilot ASEL (Japan)
>

You could surrender 1992 Private ASEL US, then request a private pilot
certificate with both glider and ASEL ratings based on your Japanese
license. (Presuming the Japanese licence is not itself issued on the
basis of US licence, and becomes invalid when your US licence goes).
BFR would continue to be valid. Of course if you're going to fly in the
US a lot, just doing the final few hoops for the US glider rating is
probably a better long-run solution.

John Cochrane BB

[gen]

BB wrote:
> You could surrender 1992 Private ASEL US, then request a private pilot
> certificate with both glider and ASEL ratings based on your Japanese
> license. (Presuming the Japanese licence is not itself issued on the
> basis of US licence, and becomes invalid when your US licence goes).

Thanks for pointing that out. Actually, my Japanese ASEL was issued
based on US ASEL.. On its face, there is no indication that it was
issued
based on US ASEL, though. I may well be voided if I surrender US ASEL..

-Gen

[gen]

Peter,

Peter wrote:
> That worked fine until i got my US ASEL rating, at which point the
> temporary US Glider private rating was no longer valid and I had to go

I was digging web, and found an official document addressing this
specific issue.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/...

Here is an excerpt.
NOTE: A person who applies for a U.S. pilot certificate by
accomplishing the appropriate pilot certification requirements of part
61 and also holds a pilot certificate issued under 61.75 need not
surrender that U.S. pilot certificate. There have been isolated
incidences where examiners have erroneously required a person to
surrender the 61.75 pilot certificate when applying for the standard
U.S. pilot certificate. In this instance, it is permissible for a
person to hold both a pilot certificate issued under 61.75 and a
standard U.S. pilot certificate.

Your glider license should have been valid.

-Gen

[Jack]

gen wrote:
> Peter,
>
> Peter wrote:
>> That worked fine until i got my US ASEL rating, at which point the
>> temporary US Glider private rating was no longer valid and I had to go
>
> I was digging web, and found an official document addressing this
> specific issue.
> http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/...
>
> Here is an excerpt.
> NOTE: A person who applies for a U.S. pilot certificate by
> accomplishing the appropriate pilot certification requirements of part
> 61 and also holds a pilot certificate issued under 61.75 need not
> surrender that U.S. pilot certificate. There have been isolated
> incidences where examiners have erroneously required a person to
> surrender the 61.75 pilot certificate when applying for the standard
> U.S. pilot certificate. In this instance, it is permissible for a
> person to hold both a pilot certificate issued under 61.75 and a
> standard U.S. pilot certificate.
>
> Your glider license should have been valid.

Full URL here:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/media/87v2_TOC.pdf

[gen]

Jack wrote:
> Full URL here:
>
> http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/media/87v2_TOC.pdf

Ah, my URL was incomplete. This is what I meant:

General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Order 8700.1: Chapter
29.

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/volume2/media/2_029_00.pdf

-Gen

[Lars Peder Hansen]

Hello,

I had exactly the same thing (as the original poster described) happen to me
a number of years ago.The Reno NV FAA office later gave me the impression
that it is not possible to surrender a US SEL? If this is indeed possible,
how does one go about it? -And if not, does anyone have experience/advice on
how much it requires to add a glider rating to the SEL?

Thanks,
Lars Peder
DG-600 "EE", Denmark

Replace numbers with "post1.tele.dk" to reply by email



"Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> You have two choices - surrender your existing US SEL certificate or
> add a glider rating to it. It's pointless to try to get an exception,
> which could take years and probably wouldn't succeed.
>
> Only you can decide which is the most attractive alternative - pay the
> money or shred your old certificate.
>
> Mike
>

[gen]

Lars,

Surrendering US ASEL is possible per 61.27.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=7c96bb67f6accf58b57e35e2ec97f40c&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.18&idno=14

Once you surrender it, you no longer have a US pilot certificate, so
61.75(b)(3) will not apply. Your application to convert a foreign
glider license will go through. Multiple FAA officers at San Jose FSDO
told me so.

The cost to add a glider rating to ASEL varies much depending on which
club you choose. Apparently, the club I used to belong is on the high
end. Some people say it's less than $500 in Reno/Truckee area.

Hope this helps.

-Gen

Lars Peder Hansen wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I had exactly the same thing (as the original poster described) happen to me
> a number of years ago.The Reno NV FAA office later gave me the impression
> that it is not possible to surrender a US SEL? If this is indeed possible,
> how does one go about it? -And if not, does anyone have experience/advice on
> how much it requires to add a glider rating to the SEL?
>
> Thanks,
> Lars Peder
> DG-600 "EE", Denmark
>
> Replace numbers with "post1.tele.dk" to reply by email
>
>
>
> "Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > You have two choices - surrender your existing US SEL certificate or
> > add a glider rating to it. It's pointless to try to get an exception,
> > which could take years and probably wouldn't succeed.
> >
> > Only you can decide which is the most attractive alternative - pay the
> > money or shred your old certificate.
> >
> > Mike
> >

[Lars Peder Hansen]

Thank you for this information.-I'll start planning my next business trip,
which just happens to take me near to the Minden area ;-)

Happy soaring,
Lars Peder



"gen" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Lars,
>
> Surrendering US ASEL is possible per 61.27.
>
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=7c96bb67f6accf58b57e35e2ec97f40c&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.18&idno=14
>
> Once you surrender it, you no longer have a US pilot certificate, so
> 61.75(b)(3) will not apply. Your application to convert a foreign
> glider license will go through. Multiple FAA officers at San Jose FSDO
> told me so.
>
> The cost to add a glider rating to ASEL varies much depending on which
> club you choose. Apparently, the club I used to belong is on the high
> end. Some people say it's less than $500 in Reno/Truckee area.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> -Gen
>
> Lars Peder Hansen wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I had exactly the same thing (as the original poster described) happen
to me
> > a number of years ago.The Reno NV FAA office later gave me the
impression
> > that it is not possible to surrender a US SEL? If this is indeed
possible,
> > how does one go about it? -And if not, does anyone have
experience/advice on
> > how much it requires to add a glider rating to the SEL?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lars Peder
> > DG-600 "EE", Denmark
> >
> > Replace numbers with "post1.tele.dk" to reply by email
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
> > ps.com...
> > > You have two choices - surrender your existing US SEL certificate or
> > > add a glider rating to it. It's pointless to try to get an exception,
> > > which could take years and probably wouldn't succeed.
> > >
> > > Only you can decide which is the most attractive alternative - pay the
> > > money or shred your old certificate.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
>

[bumper]

If your coming to Minden, it shouldn't really be called a business trip (g).
Be sure to stop by and say Hi. (hangar D-14)

bumper

"Lars Peder Hansen" > wrote in message
. ..
> Thank you for this information.-I'll start planning my next business trip,
> which just happens to take me near to the Minden area ;-)
>
> Happy soaring,
> Lars Peder
>
>
>
> "gen" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Lars,
>>
>> Surrendering US ASEL is possible per 61.27.
>>
> http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=7c96bb67f6accf58b57e35e2ec97f40c&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.18&idno=14
>>
>> Once you surrender it, you no longer have a US pilot certificate, so
>> 61.75(b)(3) will not apply. Your application to convert a foreign
>> glider license will go through. Multiple FAA officers at San Jose FSDO
>> told me so.
>>
>> The cost to add a glider rating to ASEL varies much depending on which
>> club you choose. Apparently, the club I used to belong is on the high
>> end. Some people say it's less than $500 in Reno/Truckee area.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> -Gen
>>
>> Lars Peder Hansen wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I had exactly the same thing (as the original poster described) happen
> to me
>> > a number of years ago.The Reno NV FAA office later gave me the
> impression
>> > that it is not possible to surrender a US SEL? If this is indeed
> possible,
>> > how does one go about it? -And if not, does anyone have
> experience/advice on
>> > how much it requires to add a glider rating to the SEL?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Lars Peder
>> > DG-600 "EE", Denmark
>> >
>> > Replace numbers with "post1.tele.dk" to reply by email
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
>> > ps.com...
>> > > You have two choices - surrender your existing US SEL certificate or
>> > > add a glider rating to it. It's pointless to try to get an
>> > > exception,
>> > > which could take years and probably wouldn't succeed.
>> > >
>> > > Only you can decide which is the most attractive alternative - pay
>> > > the
>> > > money or shred your old certificate.
>> > >
>> > > Mike
>> > >
>>
>
>