Airbus 380 [Archive] - AviationBanter

ASM

November 9th 06, 04:53 AM

Jim Vincent wrote:
> Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student memberships
> the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
> one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
> Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it happens.
>
>
> "Tony" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
> > eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
> > will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
> > sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
> > witness documents.
> >
> > Ask me how I know.
> >
> >> I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
> >> am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
> >> participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.
> >>
> >> Jacek
> >>
> >

They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing

witness documents.

Ask me how I know.

I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
beautiful sport...

Jacek
Washington State

Bill Daniels

November 9th 06, 02:33 PM

"ASM" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Jim Vincent wrote:
>> Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
>> memberships
>> the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
>> one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
>> Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
>> happens.
>>
>>
>> "Tony" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
>> > eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
>> > will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
>> > sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
>> > witness documents.
>> >
>> > Ask me how I know.
>> >
>> >> I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
>> >> am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
>> >> participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.
>> >>
>> >> Jacek
>> >>
>> >
>
> They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
> eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
> will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
> sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
>
> witness documents.
>
> Ask me how I know.
>
>
> I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
> the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
> than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
> to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
> fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
> with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
> what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
> a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
> to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
> I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
> or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
> am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
> afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
> beautiful sport...
>
> Jacek
> Washington State
>

I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
cost.

Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
attract with low costs.

Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
and keep the glass gliders.

Bill Daniels

Ray Lovinggood

November 9th 06, 03:17 PM

Bill,

Oh, if we only had a winching legacy in the U.S.!
Blame those Wright boys from Dayton for inventing the
expensive towplane!

I would love for our club to have a two-drum winch
with about 5,500' of the new poly rope (rather than
the steel wire) on each drum and a couple of 'Lepo's'
to retrieve the rope. Of course, I wouldn't get rid
of the towplane we have, but supplement it with the
winch. I haven't been winched in about 20 years, not
because I don't want to, but because there isn't a
winch operation where I fly. But my first winch launch
(a 'cat' launch?) was in the back seat of a G103 and
I was elated and impressed. Wow, what a way to fly
a sailplane! Also nice was the lack of noise at the
start point. The wing runner picks up the wing, the
slack in the towline is taken up, then, the glider
is just wisked away. Somedays, we could hear the winch
and somedays we couldn't. Just ambient noise and the
glider is GONE. Now, we are subjected to towplane
noise and, in our situation, the noise of power planes
as they taxi by to take off. And, oh yea, they have
to do their engine run up about where we are staging
for launch. Noisy buggers.

Yep, a nice winch would be great and would make launching
A LOT cheaper!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

>I understand where you guys are coming from but it's
>instructive to look
>carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders.
> Glider rental
>rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more
>than half the total
>cost.
>
>Most airplane training operation use trainers that
>cost far more than a new
>ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers.
> Sleek glass gliders
>are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people
>away than they
>attract with low costs.
>
>Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the
>launch cost with a winch
>and keep the glass gliders.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
>
>
>

Bruce Greef

November 9th 06, 03:55 PM

Ray

Winching often involves a winch driver all on his/her (yes we do have them) own
at the faaaar side of the field. As long as you rotating winch driving duties it
is no penance to spend some time with the monster. Brief petrol head interludes
interrupting some serious, enforced, solitude. This is another thing to get the
pleasure of learning to do well in diverse conditions.

Our winch is typically on the down hill, out of sight of the launch point with
nothing but grass and birds for company. I don't know how well this would work
in a society where everything tends to get regulated and managed to death, but
it works well for us. One of the attractions of soaring for me is to get some
time away from other people...

Aerotow is OK , but in my opinion, less fun. At an average of 8 winch launches /
aerotow in cost you have to be really bad at picking thermals to end up worse
off. If you fail to get away you get to have another roller-coaster ride. No
hardship.

The only thing that aerotow offers most of us is the ability to get to lift if
it is too high or too far away from the launch point to be reachable from the
winch. If you are flying an open class ship or heavily ballasted racer the winch
is not such a good idea.

Bruce
> Bill,
>
> Oh, if we only had a winching legacy in the U.S.!
> Blame those Wright boys from Dayton for inventing the
> expensive towplane!
>
> I would love for our club to have a two-drum winch
> with about 5,500' of the new poly rope (rather than
> the steel wire) on each drum and a couple of 'Lepo's'
> to retrieve the rope. Of course, I wouldn't get rid
> of the towplane we have, but supplement it with the
> winch. I haven't been winched in about 20 years, not
> because I don't want to, but because there isn't a
> winch operation where I fly. But my first winch launch
> (a 'cat' launch?) was in the back seat of a G103 and
> I was elated and impressed. Wow, what a way to fly
> a sailplane! Also nice was the lack of noise at the
> start point. The wing runner picks up the wing, the
> slack in the towline is taken up, then, the glider
> is just wisked away. Somedays, we could hear the winch
> and somedays we couldn't. Just ambient noise and the
> glider is GONE. Now, we are subjected to towplane
> noise and, in our situation, the noise of power planes
> as they taxi by to take off. And, oh yea, they have
> to do their engine run up about where we are staging
> for launch. Noisy buggers.
>
> Yep, a nice winch would be great and would make launching
> A LOT cheaper!
>
> Ray Lovinggood

Shawn

November 9th 06, 03:57 PM

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "ASM" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Jim Vincent wrote:
>>> Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
>>> memberships
>>> the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
>>> one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
>>> Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
>>> happens.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Tony" > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>>> They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
>>>> eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
>>>> will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
>>>> sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
>>>> witness documents.
>>>>
>>>> Ask me how I know.
>>>>
>>>>> I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
>>>>> am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
>>>>> participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacek
>>>>>
>> They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
>> eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
>> will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
>> sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
>>
>> witness documents.
>>
>> Ask me how I know.
>>
>>
>> I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
>> the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
>> than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
>> to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
>> fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
>> with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
>> what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
>> a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
>> to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
>> I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
>> or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
>> am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
>> afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
>> beautiful sport...
>>
>> Jacek
>> Washington State
>>
>
> I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
> carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
> rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
> cost.
>
> Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
> ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
> are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
> attract with low costs.
>
> Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
> and keep the glass gliders.

The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college
kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money
out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear
from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However
this is a subset of the population that is already interested in
soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by
cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost.
Bicycling may be too expensive for them.
The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the
time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about
our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't
the price, it's marketing.

Shawn

Bert Willing

November 9th 06, 04:26 PM

Why ?! Did that on a regular basis (both 25m and ballasted ships), didn't
see any inconvenience.

"Bruce Greef" > wrote in message
...
> If you are flying an open class ship or heavily ballasted racer the winch
> is not such a good idea.
>
> Bruce

[email protected]

November 9th 06, 04:40 PM

Shawn wrote:
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > "ASM" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> Jim Vincent wrote:
> >>> Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
> >>> memberships
> >>> the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I recall
> >>> one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
> >>> Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
> >>> happens.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Tony" > wrote in message
> >>> ups.com...
> >>>> They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
> >>>> eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
> >>>> will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
> >>>> sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
> >>>> witness documents.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ask me how I know.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was and
> >>>>> am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
> >>>>> participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jacek
> >>>>>
> >> They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
> >> eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
> >> will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
> >> sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
> >>
> >> witness documents.
> >>
> >> Ask me how I know.
> >>
> >>
> >> I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
> >> the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
> >> than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
> >> to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
> >> fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
> >> with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
> >> what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
> >> a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
> >> to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
> >> I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
> >> or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
> >> am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
> >> afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
> >> beautiful sport...
> >>
> >> Jacek
> >> Washington State
> >>
> >
> > I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
> > carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
> > rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
> > cost.
> >
> > Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a new
> > ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass gliders
> > are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than they
> > attract with low costs.
> >
> > Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a winch
> > and keep the glass gliders.
>
> The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college
> kids rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money
> out there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear
> from people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However
> this is a subset of the population that is already interested in
> soaring. They may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by
> cost would find the sport financially challenging at half the cost.
> Bicycling may be too expensive for them.
> The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the
> time, inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about
> our sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't
> the price, it's marketing.
>
>
> Shawn

I will agree with you up to a point. "MONEY" in the sense is not just
money...it is the time involved, it is the atmosphere of your
surroundings, it is the people they interact with...all of that
combined together is a "COST". Take a look at skydiving centers...young
person walks in and is greeted and treated as equal...and then they
train you how to throw yourself out of an airplane and you have
fun...or you get a skateboard or surfboard....and when it comes to the
end of the day, they seat down, open a bottle of wine, whiskey, beer,
they play loud music, etc....some people in our sport were "annoyed"
because I was too noisy...I speak loud, I like to listen to a loud
music, I like to drink wine and whiskey and eat whatever I want to and
the dinosaurs are saying to me "you are obnoxious" because they like to
whip their 100+ ships, fly around for a while, land and seat and talk
about old times very quietly, they have no sense of humor....what is
there that will attract more young potential pilots? Nothing,
absolutely nothing. The only thing is I don't care about what people
are thinking about me...I have my own ships, I can travel and I am not
old yet...but when I grow old (it can happen at any age) someone will
have to kick my rear end to bring me back to my youthful setting....
When it comes to a tow I agree that besides tow planes winches would be
an excellent addition to our training...I designed one....someone wants
to built one...I can do it....

Jacek
Washington State

Bill Daniels

November 9th 06, 05:08 PM

"Shawn" > wrote in message
. ..
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>> "ASM" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Jim Vincent wrote:
>>>> Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
>>>> memberships
>>>> the wood or metal are POS and that glass is the only way to go. I
>>>> recall
>>>> one time hearing a student with perhaps ten flights call a 1-26 a POS.
>>>> Amazing to hear a club instructor mold the minds that way, but it
>>>> happens.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Tony" > wrote in message
>>>> ups.com...
>>>>> They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
>>>>> eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
>>>>> will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
>>>>> sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with
>>>>> landing
>>>>> witness documents.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ask me how I know.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I doubt it...they will price themselves out of the market....I was
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> am a strong believer that the main reason behind young people not
>>>>>> participating in our sport is simply the direct cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacek
>>>>>>
>>> They just have to get the fiberglass hotshot ships out of their dreamy
>>> eyes. This sport CAN be made cheap for young people entering if they
>>> will let it. This means flying a low performance glider, with a
>>> sectional and a compass, maybe a TE probe, and a barograph with landing
>>>
>>> witness documents.
>>>
>>> Ask me how I know.
>>>
>>>
>>> I cannot agree with you more. I started flying in a wood ships such as
>>> the Bocian and Bekas (I wonder how many pilots knows what that is ) and
>>> than my first single seat was Mucha Standard....boy, I could not wait
>>> to fly the Pirat, that was the dream machine...and now? If you don't
>>> fly ASW 27B or ASG 29 than you are not worth spending any time
>>> with....when I taught people (students) flying in a Citabria you know
>>> what kind of crap I and my students had to put up with....."the 182 had
>>> a gps and an auto-pilot, flaps and a nice comfy heater, why do you want
>>> to fly this piece of crap?" Well, the situation is similar here....but
>>> I agree that this sport still can be made affordable, even with a PW-5
>>> or 1-26. The SZD 51-1 Junior was a luxury....but anyway....in the US I
>>> am barking on the wrong tree. The snobbism rules and if you can't
>>> afford the ASW-27B read above...in overall, it is a sad story....such a
>>> beautiful sport...
>>>
>>> Jacek
>>> Washington State
>>>
>>
>> I understand where you guys are coming from but it's instructive to look
>> carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders. Glider rental
>> rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more than half the total
>> cost.
>>
>> Most airplane training operation use trainers that cost far more than a
>> new ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers. Sleek glass
>> gliders are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people away than
>> they attract with low costs.
>>
>> Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a
>> winch and keep the glass gliders.
>
> The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids
> rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out
> there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from
> people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this
> is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They
> may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find
> the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too
> expensive for them.
> The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time,
> inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our
> sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the
> price, it's marketing.
>
>
> Shawn

No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
not less legal pursuits.

On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
became overwhelming.

Bill Daniels

Michel Talon

November 9th 06, 05:20 PM

Bill Daniels <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
>
> "Shawn" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Bill Daniels wrote:
> >> "ASM" > wrote in message
> >> oups.com...
> >>> Jim Vincent wrote:
> >>>> Unfortunately, there are too many clubs that tell their student
> >>>> memberships
>
> No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
> soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
> activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
> not less legal pursuits.
>
> On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
> with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
> became overwhelming.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

I could not agree more with you, Bill.

>

--

Michel TALON

Bruce Greef

November 9th 06, 06:40 PM

Bert Willing wrote:
> Why ?! Did that on a regular basis (both 25m and ballasted ships), didn't
> see any inconvenience.
>
> "Bruce Greef" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>If you are flying an open class ship or heavily ballasted racer the winch
>>is not such a good idea.
>>
>>Bruce
>
>
>
OK need to qualify that - in the event of cable breaks. You do have to consider
the field when considering whether it is safe to launch any particular glider.
There needs to be enough space to run out on an aborted take off, and the field
needs to be big/long enough that you avoid a launch where there is a part of the
climb with no good options. On our strip, which has a very rough and narrow mid
section there is a part of the launch where you would be too low to make the
nearby tar runway, and too high to stop on the reasonable part of the runway. I
know the solution is to fix the glorified cow paddock we fly from, but getting
glider pilots to spend money on non flying stuff is difficult.
Similarly it does require some skill to manage the extra energy with the big
gliders in the event of a cable break, or abort for whatever reason. With
experience on the part of the pilot and winch driver, this is less of an issue.

So - if the field is safe for the extra energy involved in this, and your winch
is powerful enough winching is no problem. It is quite a sight to watch
something like an ASH25 winch launching - and perfectly OK. There are many clubs
that do this all the time.

Shawn

November 9th 06, 07:07 PM

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "Shawn" wrote
>>> Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the launch cost with a
>>> winch and keep the glass gliders.
>> The club I fly at is in a college town, Boulder, CO. Lots of college kids
>> rip around town on $10,000 Ducs and Suzukis. There's lots of money out
>> there in the hands of young potential pilots. Yes, I know, you hear from
>> people with kids wanting to fly, that cost is prohibitive. However this
>> is a subset of the population that is already interested in soaring. They
>> may be sold on the sport, but some who are driven away by cost would find
>> the sport financially challenging at half the cost. Bicycling may be too
>> expensive for them.
>> The challenge I feel soaring should address is luring those with the time,
>> inclination, and the *money*, who would not otherwise know about our
>> sport. Don't chase the choir with cheaper robes. The battle isn't the
>> price, it's marketing.
>>
>>
>> Shawn
>
> No doubt there is a population of well-to-do youth for whom the expense of
> soaring is no factor but my experience is that they also have a lot more
> activities that compete with soaring - things like fast cars and girls, if
> not less legal pursuits.

Sure, but why not market to them, are they too rich? They can subsidize
the kids you mention below.
Works for health care. ;-)

> On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
> with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the cost
> became overwhelming.

Flying anything with hard wings is expensive. Why not try to draw in
those rich kids looking for something more than their shallow affluent
existence has to offer? Maybe someone can rephrase that in a more
appealing way. ;-)

Shawn

alex8735

November 9th 06, 07:23 PM

In Germany a lot of gliding clubs offer rates of somthing around 500
Dollars a year to fly as much as you want, winch launches included -
even on expensive modern ships like the ASW27 or ASH25. This just seems
to be a question of organising a club in the right way. To be this
cheap these clubs rely on the work of their members. This makes flying
very time consuming, posing an equally large problem as expensive
rates. I know a lot of people who would prefer paying more to get rid
of obligations within the club.

Frank Whiteley

November 9th 06, 09:14 PM

Ray,

Get in touch with Uli at Airscapes. They've recently ramped up a
winch.

Frank Whiteley

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Oh, if we only had a winching legacy in the U.S.!
> Blame those Wright boys from Dayton for inventing the
> expensive towplane!
>
> I would love for our club to have a two-drum winch
> with about 5,500' of the new poly rope (rather than
> the steel wire) on each drum and a couple of 'Lepo's'
> to retrieve the rope. Of course, I wouldn't get rid
> of the towplane we have, but supplement it with the
> winch. I haven't been winched in about 20 years, not
> because I don't want to, but because there isn't a
> winch operation where I fly. But my first winch launch
> (a 'cat' launch?) was in the back seat of a G103 and
> I was elated and impressed. Wow, what a way to fly
> a sailplane! Also nice was the lack of noise at the
> start point. The wing runner picks up the wing, the
> slack in the towline is taken up, then, the glider
> is just wisked away. Somedays, we could hear the winch
> and somedays we couldn't. Just ambient noise and the
> glider is GONE. Now, we are subjected to towplane
> noise and, in our situation, the noise of power planes
> as they taxi by to take off. And, oh yea, they have
> to do their engine run up about where we are staging
> for launch. Noisy buggers.
>
> Yep, a nice winch would be great and would make launching
> A LOT cheaper!
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
>
>
> >I understand where you guys are coming from but it's
> >instructive to look
> >carefully at the actual costs of learning to fly gliders.
> > Glider rental
> >rates are not the big factor. Launch fees are more
> >than half the total
> >cost.
> >
> >Most airplane training operation use trainers that
> >cost far more than a new
> >ASK-21 yet they seem to still have lots of customers.
> > Sleek glass gliders
> >are a big draw. Clunky old trainers drive more people
> >away than they
> >attract with low costs.
> >
> >Training costs do need to be reduced but attack the
> >launch cost with a winch
> >and keep the glass gliders.
> >
> >Bill Daniels
> >
> >
> >
> >

bagmaker

November 9th 06, 09:42 PM

as i bury myself in the flak shelter.........
We are often reminded of the hardships endured by our forefathers in the gliding community to get us to where we now are. Wooden ships, breezy clubrooms if any, dodgy tugs, doped fabric.
C'mon you old codgers, with all due respect, this sport is DYING. What has been done is WHY it is dying. This train of thought is killing us!
To insist that newcomers start in an old tin or wooden warhorse may well kill any interest and passion for flying in the first place!
There will always be a place for your beloved antiques, but please, dont force them on the youth or learners of today because you had to endure that yourself.
Get your students into that fast, slippery Carbon/kevlar/unobtainuim ship as soon as possible, and keep the passion alive or we will all be dreaming about gliding instead of doing it.

Do you notice the interest in F1 car racing? Do you think those punters standing around at car races dream of driving the race car, or the Model T Ford at uncle Bobs farm?
Do you look bored at the Hornets in an airshow or look awestruck at the balloons?

Its all about passion, DONT KILL IT!

The real expense in gliding comes from suits in insurance companies, expensive launches, fees for landing, fees for governments to restrict us, blah blah blah, not the actual cost of the machine!
Gliders have never been more affordable or accessable than they are right now, although the top ships are damned expensive, the top anything is damned expensive.

What we have done has led us to where we are. Its not a good place. It may see your days out but not my kids days, nor theirs and I am ripping the sport off if I dont put back in what I have got out of it. Is that your own position, you should ask?

We need change and the attitude that newbies should lump around the field in POS is a perfect place to start. Try this-

"gone solo young feller? Great!"
" Lets get the (insert hottest club ship) out next Sunday and I will DI it and set you up, you will be fine, its a great fast, sleek glider"

Note NOT great first glider, or trainer/learner/stable/forgiving/safe glider, -push the damn thing for heavans sake! KEEP THE PASSION

Get to the field and get them in it. Dont suffer them with the gadgets, its still about stick and rudder, get them to it ASAP and watch them roll up with their mates next month.

Once we have the newbie hooked, he/she WILL continue in a ship of their own, probably lower down the scale and more within the budget we are all constrained with.
BUT they will be one of us now, instead of looking elsewhere for a sport which will interest them.

SO what occurs?
Newbie is hooked, buys second hand glider.
Old hand sells secondhand glider to newbie, buys new glider for himself.
Sales for glider manufactureres go up, technology and skill go up, processes get simpler and cheaper by volume, gliders get cheaper!
What a shock!
Dont believe me?

How much is a new Ferrari, Maserati, Viper or Corvette? The things are everywhere, often driven by young folks wealthier than I. Good on them, why dont they fly?
Ask yourself, should they drive an old volkswagon just because they are new at driving?
Would they be passionate about driving in the old volkswagon? Dont bother with the safety bull**** argument, the two are different and shouldnt be used as an excuse.

CHANGE IT ALL NOW, start in your own head.
Or we all go down, make no mistake.

Bagmaker,
looking forward to the gin being spluttered through large droopy moustaches at him next weekend at the club.

Mark Lenox

November 9th 06, 11:44 PM

They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10 years,
but I never forgot....

I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't care
less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better yet a
Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are great
aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start out in
the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your last dollar
that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same way. They'll
fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something cool, it means
much more.

When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon, her
first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.

Mark Lenox, CFIG
Chilhowee Gliderport

> On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
> with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the
> cost became overwhelming.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[email protected]

November 10th 06, 12:06 AM

bagmaker wrote:
> "gone solo young feller? Great!"
> " Lets get the (insert hottest club ship) out next Sunday and I will DI
> it and set you up, you will be fine, its a great fast, sleek glider"
> Note NOT great first glider, or trainer/learner/stable/forgiving/safe
> glider, -push the damn thing for heavans sake!

It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
means higher annual/launch fees.

Bartek

[email protected]

November 10th 06, 01:59 AM

wrote:
>
> It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
> and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
> means higher annual/launch fees.
>
> Bartek

OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
to maintain than many older gliders.

Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
seater made from glass?

If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
and elsewhere all the time.

Robert Mudd
Moriarty, New Mexico USA

Bill Daniels

November 10th 06, 03:15 AM

Damn right Robert!

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
>>
>> It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
>> and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
>> means higher annual/launch fees.
>>
>> Bartek
>
> OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
> since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
> to maintain than many older gliders.
>
> Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
> glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
> regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
> on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
> seater made from glass?
>
> If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
> glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
> and elsewhere all the time.
>
> Robert Mudd
> Moriarty, New Mexico USA
>

Mike Schumann

November 10th 06, 04:30 AM

My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight thermal
and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!

Mike Schumann

"Mark Lenox" > wrote in message
. ..
> They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10 years,
> but I never forgot....
>
> I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
> equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't care
> less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better yet a
> Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are great
> aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start out in
> the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your last
> dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same way.
> They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something cool,
> it means much more.
>
> When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon,
> her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.
>
>
> Mark Lenox, CFIG
> Chilhowee Gliderport
>
>
>> On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
>> with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the
>> cost became overwhelming.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>
>

Jeremy Zawodny

November 10th 06, 04:55 AM

Mike Schumann wrote:
> My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight thermal
> and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!

And I like being in the DG-1000 because I can leave the thermal and fly
both faster and farther than you before needing to thermal again. :-)

That's really just a round about way of making a related point. There's
a substantial number of glider pilots who get stuck in the gap between
taking friends for sled rides and flying cross-country in a fun and safe
manner. Getting people across that gap often helps them stick with
soaring much longer.

Jeremy

Bruce Greef

November 10th 06, 10:46 AM

wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
>>and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
>>means higher annual/launch fees.
>>
>>Bartek
>
>
> OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
> since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
> to maintain than many older gliders.
>
> Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
> glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
> regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
> on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
> seater made from glass?
>
> If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
> glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
> and elsewhere all the time.
>
> Robert Mudd
> Moriarty, New Mexico USA
>
'Nother reason to retire the things - Much as I enjoy vintage gliders, every
time I spend a weekend instructing in our wooden wonders (the 'new' one is 40
years old...) I need a while to get used to the glass again when I get back
into a very modest performance glass single seater.

Very little motivation to extend the capabilities if what you are flying manages
1:25 on a good day and has the penetration of a well thrown powderpuff.

As Robert says there are loads of well behaved glass trainers at reasonable
prices.

Karl Semper

November 10th 06, 01:57 PM

A little story, but true. It actually happened to me.

I worked in Germany for several years and while over there learned to
fly gliders and got my license. When I returned to the US, I went to
the nearest glider port and was told by the instructor that he didn't
have time to help me obtain a US license. I didn't want a US license
based on the German license because of the need to obtain an physical
from a German flight surgeon. That I should go to a commercial school
and then come back and fly their 2-33. I took a ride in the 2-33 and
decided that although the newest ships that I was checked out on in
Germany was a Junior and Puchacz (trained in Bocian), that I would
find something else to do. Between the 2-33 and the instructors
attitude, I'll wait until I move someplace where the people are
friendlier. The instructors attitude was the main reason, but the 2-33
didn't help.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:46:20 +0200, Bruce Greef >
wrote:

wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>>>It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
>>>and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
>>>means higher annual/launch fees.
>>>
>>>Bartek
>>
>>
>> OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
>> since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
>> to maintain than many older gliders.
>>
>> Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
>> glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
>> regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
>> on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
>> seater made from glass?
>>
>> If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
>> glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
>> and elsewhere all the time.
>>
>> Robert Mudd
>> Moriarty, New Mexico USA
>>
>'Nother reason to retire the things - Much as I enjoy vintage gliders, every
>time I spend a weekend instructing in our wooden wonders (the 'new' one is 40
>years old...) I need a while to get used to the glass again when I get back
>into a very modest performance glass single seater.
>
>Very little motivation to extend the capabilities if what you are flying manages
>1:25 on a good day and has the penetration of a well thrown powderpuff.
>
>As Robert says there are loads of well behaved glass trainers at reasonable
>prices.

[email protected]

November 10th 06, 04:03 PM

How much fun you have has very little to do with your L/D until you
start going XC. The 2-33 climbs well and the view is pretty much the
same as it is from a glass ship. We have lots of fun here in Oregon
with our pay out winch and our 2-33s. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to
be flying a DG 1000, but all I can afford at this time is the big, fat,
ugly 2-33. If anyone wants to donate a nice glass 2-place ship to us,
we will gladly accept!

Check out our new winch launch video on my web site:

www.nwskysports.com

Out on the dry lake we get as high as 2500ft on the pay out winch, at
home on our 3000ft runway we can get as high as 1300ft in a good wind.
With no wind we can get to about 800ft, which is good enough for
landing practice

Gary Boggs

Martin Gregorie[_1_]

November 10th 06, 04:08 PM

bagmaker wrote:
..../...

> To insist that newcomers start in an old tin or wooden warhorse may
> well kill any interest and passion for flying in the first place!
>
Well said. I'm a case in point.

My background is over 30 years flying competitive Free Flight model gliders.

Back in the late 80s or early 90s I was at a couple of trial flight
evenings with ASK-13s as the aircraft. I enjoyed the evenings, but never
had the urge to learn to fly.

In 1999 during an aviation related holiday I took a trial flight in an
ASK-21 and was instantly hooked. I spent the winter researching local
clubs and joined up in spring 2000. My club's fleet is all glass and
I've never looked back, learning in ASK-21, G103 and Puchacz, then
working up the club fleet through Juniors to Pegase and Discus.

Currently I own a lightly Streifenedered Standard Libelle and love it to
bits.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Wayne Paul

November 10th 06, 04:20 PM

Gary,

Wow, that Alvord Desert video is huge! (113 megs)

Wayne

HP-14 "6F"

http://www.soaridaho.com/

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> How much fun you have has very little to do with your L/D until you
> start going XC. The 2-33 climbs well and the view is pretty much the
> same as it is from a glass ship. We have lots of fun here in Oregon
> with our pay out winch and our 2-33s. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to
> be flying a DG 1000, but all I can afford at this time is the big, fat,
> ugly 2-33. If anyone wants to donate a nice glass 2-place ship to us,
> we will gladly accept!
>
> Check out our new winch launch video on my web site:
>
> www.nwskysports.com
>
> Out on the dry lake we get as high as 2500ft on the pay out winch, at
> home on our 3000ft runway we can get as high as 1300ft in a good wind.
> With no wind we can get to about 800ft, which is good enough for
> landing practice
>
> Gary Boggs
>

[email protected]

November 10th 06, 05:07 PM

> Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
> glass gliders. Stop training in those.

As soon as I find someone to sponsor my flying. Whether we like it or
not, K-21 is three or four times more expensive than K-13. Yep, I went
solo in a K-13. Yep, I could have choosen a club that used K-21 for
training. Going solo would have cost me approximately twice as much.

> Your club instructors should regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be
> able to pass on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
> seater made from glass?

I have no doubts about their skills. Most of them actually own glass
gliders.

> If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
> glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
> and elsewhere all the time.

I suppose so.

Bartek (who will gladly fly anything with wood, metal or glass wings)

Mike Schumann

November 10th 06, 05:19 PM

Just because you are in an old glider doesn't mean that you can't fly cross
country. One of our club member, Jim Hard, just finished his goal of flying
40K KM in his 1-26 this summer.

The fun of soaring is the challenge. The type of equipment you fly just
changes the challenge. It doesn't necessarily increase or reduce it.

Mike Schumann

"Jeremy Zawodny" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Schumann wrote:
>> My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight
>> thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!
>
> And I like being in the DG-1000 because I can leave the thermal and fly
> both faster and farther than you before needing to thermal again. :-)
>
> That's really just a round about way of making a related point. There's a
> substantial number of glider pilots who get stuck in the gap between
> taking friends for sled rides and flying cross-country in a fun and safe
> manner. Getting people across that gap often helps them stick with
> soaring much longer.
>
> Jeremy

[email protected]

November 10th 06, 05:29 PM

Karl Semper wrote:
> A little story, but true. It actually happened to me.
>
> I worked in Germany for several years and while over there learned to
> fly gliders and got my license. When I returned to the US, I went to
> the nearest glider port and was told by the instructor that he didn't
> have time to help me obtain a US license. I didn't want a US license
> based on the German license because of the need to obtain an physical
> from a German flight surgeon. That I should go to a commercial school
> and then come back and fly their 2-33. I took a ride in the 2-33 and
> decided that although the newest ships that I was checked out on in
> Germany was a Junior and Puchacz (trained in Bocian), that I would
> find something else to do. Between the 2-33 and the instructors
> attitude, I'll wait until I move someplace where the people are
> friendlier. The instructors attitude was the main reason, but the 2-33
> didn't help.
>
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:46:20 +0200, Bruce Greef >
> wrote:
>
> wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>It WILL change, but for now I'd rather be put in a stable, forgiving
> >>>and safe glider than in a hot, slippery glass. Especially if hot glass
> >>>means higher annual/launch fees.
> >>>
> >>>Bartek
> >>
> >>
> >> OK, lets put this one to rest. Every glider I have flown that was made
> >> since about the mid 1980s is stable, forgiving and safe. And cost less
> >> to maintain than many older gliders.
> >>
> >> Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
> >> glass gliders. Stop training in those. Your club instructors should
> >> regurally fly modern glass gliders, how else will they be able to pass
> >> on the necessary skills to the students when it is time to fly a single
> >> seater made from glass?
> >>
> >> If you train in a modern glass glider, transitioning to a single seat
> >> glass glider is easy, with proper instruction. It is done in Germany
> >> and elsewhere all the time.
> >>
> >> Robert Mudd
> >> Moriarty, New Mexico USA
> >>
> >'Nother reason to retire the things - Much as I enjoy vintage gliders, every
> >time I spend a weekend instructing in our wooden wonders (the 'new' one is 40
> >years old...) I need a while to get used to the glass again when I get back
> >into a very modest performance glass single seater.
> >
> >Very little motivation to extend the capabilities if what you are flying manages
> >1:25 on a good day and has the penetration of a well thrown powderpuff.
> >
> >As Robert says there are loads of well behaved glass trainers at reasonable
> >prices.

Karl,

You and I are not alone, there is more stories like yours. It almost
feels like saying "a typical situation".

I also agree with Robert about the glass ships....but I also will agree
with Gary about the 2-33...there is room for every glider, however the
main problem is our attitude. Be nice, be fun, be friendly, don't trash
people because of their looks, treat them as equal and people will come
from every imaginable walk of life. Just because I speak with an accent
it doesn't make me "sub-human" or worse pilot than you are. I can tell
you a story about a guy from Argentina who was asking for a flight
instructions in a club I used to be belong to in Pacific NW....but I
will not. It is shameful that we have some individuals like that
running and operating a club....and I know also that this is not unique
incident.

Jacek
Washington State

November 10th 06, 06:13 PM

wrote:
> I also agree with Robert about the glass ships....but I also will agree
> with Gary about the 2-33...there is room for every glider, however the
> main problem is our attitude. Be nice, be fun, be friendly, don't trash
> people because of their looks, treat them as equal and people will come
> from every imaginable walk of life. Just because I speak with an accent
> it doesn't make me "sub-human" or worse pilot than you are. I can tell
> you a story about a guy from Argentina who was asking for a flight
> instructions in a club I used to be belong to in Pacific NW....but I
> will not. It is shameful that we have some individuals like that
> running and operating a club....and I know also that this is not unique
> incident.
>
> Jacek
> Washington State

Jacek, you know what else is a shame is there is a guy who runs Bermuda
soaring which I guess is one of the biggest operators in his part of
the country, and he posts racist and derogitory remarks on RAS.It is as
if he doesnt care who he ****es off.Or maybe he thinks none of his
customers post on RAS, who knows?

Jeremy Zawodny

November 10th 06, 06:31 PM

Mike Schumann wrote:
> Just because you are in an old glider doesn't mean that you can't fly cross
> country.

In the climate and geography where I fly part of the year, it really
does--at least if you don't want to end up in a field more than 50% of
the time.

In the other locations I fly, you could go XC in a coffin on many days.
There, I completely agree with you.

Jeremy

Paul Remde

November 10th 06, 09:06 PM

Hi Mike,

At some point in your soaring career, I hope you do some cross-country in
the DG-1000 with Dick or Fred. It is very fun!!!

There is a lot to be said for generous owners of hot 2-seaters that let the
rest of us fly cross-country fly with them. They do a lot to encourage
soaring and cross-country in my opinion.

Not that there is anything wrong with doing cross-country in the Ka-8. It
seems like a very nice glider. But why don't you use the club's Junior? It
it extremely nice to fly and has much better performance than the Ka-8.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight thermal
> and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Mark Lenox" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10
>> years, but I never forgot....
>>
>> I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
>> equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't care
>> less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better yet a
>> Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are great
>> aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start out in
>> the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your last
>> dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same way.
>> They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something cool,
>> it means much more.
>>
>> When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon,
>> her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.
>>
>>
>> Mark Lenox, CFIG
>> Chilhowee Gliderport
>>
>>
>>> On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were enthralled
>>> with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their eyes when the
>>> cost became overwhelming.
>>>
>>> Bill Daniels
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Eric Greenwell

November 11th 06, 01:12 AM

wrote:

> Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
> glass gliders. Stop training in those.

I have 5000 hours in glass gliders, and I still think they're "hot". I
loved landing my Ka-6e or our club's Blanik, because they had great
speed control (speed limiting brakes) and seemed to land at a walking
pace. What a comfort during an off-field landing. Next best was my ASW
20 with 40 degree landing flaps - landed faster, of course, but nothing
like my Std Cirrus or the motorglider I fly now.

I know there are people that don't go cross country because their glass
ship lands fast, and this disturbs them enough they don't have the
confidence to risk an off-airport landing. I haven't kept track of what
these people learned in, so I can't say starting in a faster glider
would have made the difference.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Bill Daniels

November 11th 06, 02:06 AM

Interesting discussion about "fast" gliders. I imagine there's a bunch of
jet jockys rolling on the floor laughing. How about 180 knots over the
fantail trying for the third wire on an 700 foot 'runway'.

The fastest landing glider in common use is the (very) old 2-32. The 2-32
POH provides little guidance on approach speeds but if the airspeed
indicator had one of those little yellow triangles showing minimum approach
speed, it would be around 75MPH. Most pilots respect the 2-32 enough to fly
the pattern around 80 - 90 MPH. I haven't got the guts to let the approach
speed get below 80. No glass glider I know of lands that fast.

In fact, I'd say that it's more likely that a less-skilled pilot would get
in trouble flying a too-fast approach in a slick glass ship.

Bill Daniels

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
news:Dr95h.67$8u1.2@trndny04...
> wrote:
>
>> Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
>> glass gliders. Stop training in those.
>
> I have 5000 hours in glass gliders, and I still think they're "hot". I
> loved landing my Ka-6e or our club's Blanik, because they had great speed
> control (speed limiting brakes) and seemed to land at a walking pace. What
> a comfort during an off-field landing. Next best was my ASW 20 with 40
> degree landing flaps - landed faster, of course, but nothing like my Std
> Cirrus or the motorglider I fly now.
>
> I know there are people that don't go cross country because their glass
> ship lands fast, and this disturbs them enough they don't have the
> confidence to risk an off-airport landing. I haven't kept track of what
> these people learned in, so I can't say starting in a faster glider would
> have made the difference.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Jeremy Zawodny

November 11th 06, 03:46 AM

Bill Daniels wrote:
> Interesting discussion about "fast" gliders. I imagine there's a bunch of
> jet jockys rolling on the floor laughing. How about 180 knots over the
> fantail trying for the third wire on an 700 foot 'runway'.
>
> The fastest landing glider in common use is the (very) old 2-32. The 2-32
> POH provides little guidance on approach speeds but if the airspeed
> indicator had one of those little yellow triangles showing minimum approach
> speed, it would be around 75MPH. Most pilots respect the 2-32 enough to fly
> the pattern around 80 - 90 MPH. I haven't got the guts to let the approach
> speed get below 80. No glass glider I know of lands that fast.

Wow, those numbers strike me as fast. I did my primary training in
2-32s and typically flew the pattern around 70mph and had sufficient
float on landing.

I can't imagine why anyone would regularly do a 90mph pattern.

I did do 100mph on final once, but that was part of a checkout before I
could do commercial rides in the 2-32. Those velocity limiting dive
brakes are pretty impressive. :-)

Jeremy

Mike Schumann

November 11th 06, 05:07 AM

Unfortunately, I don't have enough flight experience yet to qualify to fly
the Junior under the MSC rules.

Mike Schumann

"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:sR55h.231090$FQ1.110494@attbi_s71...
> Hi Mike,
>
> At some point in your soaring career, I hope you do some cross-country in
> the DG-1000 with Dick or Fred. It is very fun!!!
>
> There is a lot to be said for generous owners of hot 2-seaters that let
> the rest of us fly cross-country fly with them. They do a lot to
> encourage soaring and cross-country in my opinion.
>
> Not that there is anything wrong with doing cross-country in the Ka-8. It
> seems like a very nice glider. But why don't you use the club's Junior?
> It it extremely nice to fly and has much better performance than the Ka-8.
>
> Good Soaring,
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight
>> thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!
>>
>> Mike Schumann
>>
>> "Mark Lenox" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10
>>> years, but I never forgot....
>>>
>>> I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
>>> equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't
>>> care less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better
>>> yet a Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are
>>> great aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start
>>> out in the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your
>>> last dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same
>>> way. They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something
>>> cool, it means much more.
>>>
>>> When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon,
>>> her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Lenox, CFIG
>>> Chilhowee Gliderport
>>>
>>>
>>>> On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were
>>>> enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their
>>>> eyes when the cost became overwhelming.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Daniels
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Bill Daniels

November 11th 06, 05:08 AM

"Jeremy Zawodny" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>> Interesting discussion about "fast" gliders. I imagine there's a bunch
>> of jet jockys rolling on the floor laughing. How about 180 knots over
>> the fantail trying for the third wire on an 700 foot 'runway'.
>>
>> The fastest landing glider in common use is the (very) old 2-32. The
>> 2-32 POH provides little guidance on approach speeds but if the airspeed
>> indicator had one of those little yellow triangles showing minimum
>> approach speed, it would be around 75MPH. Most pilots respect the 2-32
>> enough to fly the pattern around 80 - 90 MPH. I haven't got the guts to
>> let the approach speed get below 80. No glass glider I know of lands
>> that fast.
>
> Wow, those numbers strike me as fast. I did my primary training in 2-32s
> and typically flew the pattern around 70mph and had sufficient float on
> landing.
>
> I can't imagine why anyone would regularly do a 90mph pattern.
>
> I did do 100mph on final once, but that was part of a checkout before I
> could do commercial rides in the 2-32. Those velocity limiting dive
> brakes are pretty impressive. :-)
>
> Jeremy

The concern isn't about float, it's about the 2-32's behavior in a gust
induced stall.

Bill Daniels

Frank Whiteley

November 11th 06, 05:43 AM

Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience. Philadelphia
Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience. By
eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.

PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the promise
of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
be afraid to dream a bit.

Frank Whiteley

Mike Schumann wrote:
> Unfortunately, I don't have enough flight experience yet to qualify to fly
> the Junior under the MSC rules.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
> news:sR55h.231090$FQ1.110494@attbi_s71...
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > At some point in your soaring career, I hope you do some cross-country in
> > the DG-1000 with Dick or Fred. It is very fun!!!
> >
> > There is a lot to be said for generous owners of hot 2-seaters that let
> > the rest of us fly cross-country fly with them. They do a lot to
> > encourage soaring and cross-country in my opinion.
> >
> > Not that there is anything wrong with doing cross-country in the Ka-8. It
> > seems like a very nice glider. But why don't you use the club's Junior?
> > It it extremely nice to fly and has much better performance than the Ka-8.
> >
> > Good Soaring,
> >
> > Paul Remde
> >
> > "Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
> > nk.net...
> >> My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight
> >> thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!
> >>
> >> Mike Schumann
> >>
> >> "Mark Lenox" > wrote in message
> >> . ..
> >>> They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10
> >>> years, but I never forgot....
> >>>
> >>> I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
> >>> equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't
> >>> care less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better
> >>> yet a Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are
> >>> great aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't start
> >>> out in the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet your
> >>> last dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same
> >>> way. They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly something
> >>> cool, it means much more.
> >>>
> >>> When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming soon,
> >>> her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mark Lenox, CFIG
> >>> Chilhowee Gliderport
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were
> >>>> enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their
> >>>> eyes when the cost became overwhelming.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Daniels
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >

Frank Whiteley

November 11th 06, 05:45 AM

90mph patterns in a 2-32 aren't uncommon. Especially at sites that
have had one spin in.

Frank Whiteley

Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > Interesting discussion about "fast" gliders. I imagine there's a bunch of
> > jet jockys rolling on the floor laughing. How about 180 knots over the
> > fantail trying for the third wire on an 700 foot 'runway'.
> >
> > The fastest landing glider in common use is the (very) old 2-32. The 2-32
> > POH provides little guidance on approach speeds but if the airspeed
> > indicator had one of those little yellow triangles showing minimum approach
> > speed, it would be around 75MPH. Most pilots respect the 2-32 enough to fly
> > the pattern around 80 - 90 MPH. I haven't got the guts to let the approach
> > speed get below 80. No glass glider I know of lands that fast.
>
> Wow, those numbers strike me as fast. I did my primary training in
> 2-32s and typically flew the pattern around 70mph and had sufficient
> float on landing.
>
> I can't imagine why anyone would regularly do a 90mph pattern.
>
> I did do 100mph on final once, but that was part of a checkout before I
> could do commercial rides in the 2-32. Those velocity limiting dive
> brakes are pretty impressive. :-)
>
> Jeremy

Eric Greenwell

November 11th 06, 06:17 AM

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> 90mph patterns in a 2-32 aren't uncommon. Especially at sites that
> have had one spin in.

What is the stall speed?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Jeremy Zawodny

November 11th 06, 06:42 AM

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Frank Whiteley wrote:
>> 90mph patterns in a 2-32 aren't uncommon. Especially at sites that
>> have had one spin in.
>
> What is the stall speed?

I don't have my copy of a 2-32 manual handy right now, but a quick
search reveals 47mph @ max gross:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/browse_frm/thread/baa687587b42fd3e/1f26e884e191c7de?lnk=st&q=2-32+stall+speed&rnum=5#1f26e884e191c7de

That feels like it's in the right ballpark for the 2-32s I've flown.

Jeremy

Bill Daniels

November 11th 06, 03:09 PM

"Jeremy Zawodny" > wrote in message
...
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Frank Whiteley wrote:
>>> 90mph patterns in a 2-32 aren't uncommon. Especially at sites that
>>> have had one spin in.
>>
>> What is the stall speed?
>
> I don't have my copy of a 2-32 manual handy right now, but a quick search
> reveals 47mph @ max gross:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/browse_frm/thread/baa687587b42fd3e/1f26e884e191c7de?lnk=st&q=2-32+stall+speed&rnum=5#1f26e884e191c7de
>
> That feels like it's in the right ballpark for the 2-32s I've flown.
>
> Jeremy

47 MPH stall is very optimistic. At gross weight, the stick buffet starts
at about 55 - 60 and the stall break is around 53. If the stall is not
perfectly symmetric, a spin departure is likely leading to significant
altitude loss. The 2-32 is not a glider you want to stall in the pattern.
There were pilots who thought 70 MPH was an adequate pattern speed who are
no longer with us.

My original point was that, as Robert Mud wrote, modern glass gliders are
very docile and that references to "hot" glass ships is misguided. In
reality, bad gliders are bad at everything and good gliders have excellent
performance AND docile handling qualities. I'd like to see everyone trained
in Duo Discii.

At one point there was a glider manufacturer who couldn't build high
performance gliders. In an attempt to maintain market share, that
manufacturer took a marketing approach that suggested that performance and
safe handling qualities were inversely related such that it was impossible
to build high performance gliders with safe handling. Instead, that
manufacturer proved that it was possible to build bad handling and lousy
performance in the same glider.

Bill Daniels

Tony[_1_]

November 11th 06, 03:55 PM

Mike Schumann wrote:
> Just because you are in an old glider doesn't mean that you can't fly cross
> country. One of our club member, Jim Hard, just finished his goal of flying
> 40K KM in his 1-26 this summer.
>
> The fun of soaring is the challenge. The type of equipment you fly just
> changes the challenge. It doesn't necessarily increase or reduce it.
>
> Mike Schumann

Amen Mike!!

Shawn

November 11th 06, 03:56 PM

Bill Daniels wrote:

> At one point there was a glider manufacturer who couldn't build high
> performance gliders. In an attempt to maintain market share, that
> manufacturer took a marketing approach that suggested that performance and
> safe handling qualities were inversely related such that it was impossible
> to build high performance gliders with safe handling. Instead, that
> manufacturer proved that it was possible to build bad handling and lousy
> performance in the same glider.

Is that how the 1-36 got built?

Shawn

Jim Vincent

November 11th 06, 03:58 PM

Another one that drank the coolaid.
"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience. Philadelphia
> Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
> an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
> single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience. By
> eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
> amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
> the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.
>
> PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the promise
> of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
> students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
> be afraid to dream a bit.
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
> Mike Schumann wrote:
>> Unfortunately, I don't have enough flight experience yet to qualify to
>> fly
>> the Junior under the MSC rules.
>>
>> Mike Schumann
>>
>> "Paul Remde" > wrote in message
>> news:sR55h.231090$FQ1.110494@attbi_s71...
>> > Hi Mike,
>> >
>> > At some point in your soaring career, I hope you do some cross-country
>> > in
>> > the DG-1000 with Dick or Fred. It is very fun!!!
>> >
>> > There is a lot to be said for generous owners of hot 2-seaters that let
>> > the rest of us fly cross-country fly with them. They do a lot to
>> > encourage soaring and cross-country in my opinion.
>> >
>> > Not that there is anything wrong with doing cross-country in the Ka-8.
>> > It
>> > seems like a very nice glider. But why don't you use the club's
>> > Junior?
>> > It it extremely nice to fly and has much better performance than the
>> > Ka-8.
>> >
>> > Good Soaring,
>> >
>> > Paul Remde
>> >
>> > "Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
>> > nk.net...
>> >> My favorite club glider is our K-8. I love it when I'm in a tight
>> >> thermal and I'm climbing away from a DG-1000!
>> >>
>> >> Mike Schumann
>> >>
>> >> "Mark Lenox" > wrote in message
>> >> . ..
>> >>> They'll be back. That's what happened to me. It took me over 10
>> >>> years, but I never forgot....
>> >>>
>> >>> I've got to agree with the people who say to train in newer, better
>> >>> equipment. I learned to fly in a 2-33, but quite frankly couldn't
>> >>> care less if I ever flew one again. Put me in an ASK-21, or better
>> >>> yet a Discus (or Duo!), and I'm right where I want to be. These are
>> >>> great aircraft, and there is absolutely no reason someone couldn't
>> >>> start
>> >>> out in the K-21 and transition directly to a Discus. You can bet
>> >>> your
>> >>> last dollar that the younger kids starting out think exactly the same
>> >>> way. They'll fly anything, but if they have the chance to fly
>> >>> something
>> >>> cool, it means much more.
>> >>>
>> >>> When my daughter is ready to learn to fly, and that day is coming
>> >>> soon,
>> >>> her first solo will definitely be in a K-21. No question about it.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Mark Lenox, CFIG
>> >>> Chilhowee Gliderport
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> On the other hand, I have seen a LOT of young people who were
>> >>>> enthralled with soaring but who eventually left with a tear in their
>> >>>> eyes when the cost became overwhelming.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bill Daniels
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>

Jack

November 11th 06, 04:52 PM

Jim Vincent wrote:

> Another one that drank the coolaid.

> "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience. Philadelphia
>> Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
>> an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
>> single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience. By
>> eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
>> amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
>> the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.
>>
>> PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the promise
>> of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
>> students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
>> be afraid to dream a bit.

So, what's your solution, Jim?

Jack

Jim Vincent

November 11th 06, 06:49 PM

Jack,

Fair question. I'll need a week or so to respond to you since I'm caught
up in my honey-do list and a marketing campaign for my company.

Thanks.

Jim
"Jack" > wrote in message
et...
> Jim Vincent wrote:
>
>> Another one that drank the coolaid.
>
>> "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience. Philadelphia
>>> Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
>>> an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
>>> single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience. By
>>> eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
>>> amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
>>> the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.
>>>
>>> PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the promise
>>> of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
>>> students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
>>> be afraid to dream a bit.
>
>
>
> So, what's your solution, Jim?
>
>
> Jack

November 11th 06, 07:29 PM

Bill Daniels wrote:
> Interesting discussion about "fast" gliders. I imagine there's a bunch of
> jet jockys rolling on the floor laughing. How about 180 knots over the
> fantail trying for the third wire on an 700 foot 'runway'.

Bill, why would anyone be laughing?Landing a jet and landing a
sailplane (Especially on a unprepared surface) are two totaly different
things.Sounds like one of those "There I was" stories.

> The fastest landing glider in common use is the (very) old 2-32. The 2-32
> POH provides little guidance on approach speeds but if the airspeed
> indicator had one of those little yellow triangles showing minimum approach
> speed, it would be around 75MPH. Most pilots respect the 2-32 enough to fly
> the pattern around 80 - 90 MPH. I haven't got the guts to let the approach
> speed get below 80. No glass glider I know of lands that fast.

Here you are getting even further from E.G's post.With less than 40 of
these things still flying, the 2-32 is not that common at all.There was
a thead earlier on RAS about a guy who advocated pattern speeds near
VNE in a 2-33 without taking into account the hazards such a high speed
creates.I would say your post follows the same logic.If you touch down
at 80KTS you are probably creating more hazards than you are
avoiding.Were you posted "No glass glider I know of lands that fast"
should read no glass glider PILOT I know of lands that fast.Think about
what you are post here Bob.If you fly a pattern at 40 MPH or so above
stall speed to avoid a "Gust induced stall" this means you are
expecting a gust in exess of 40MPH.I have never flown on a day when the
wind was gusting that high above the steady state wind..What is it
like? Sounds like another "there I was" story.

> In fact, I'd say that it's more likely that a less-skilled pilot would get
> in trouble flying a too-fast approach in a slick glass ship.

Anyone would get in trouble flying too fast an aproach.What the ship is
made of has no bearing on this.
>
> Bill Daniels

K Urban

P.S. How did you keep your wheel brake from catching on fire?

>
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> news:Dr95h.67$8u1.2@trndny04...
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Glass gliders are "hot" only if you have only flown old high drag non
> >> glass gliders. Stop training in those.
> >
> > I have 5000 hours in glass gliders, and I still think they're "hot". I
> > loved landing my Ka-6e or our club's Blanik, because they had great speed
> > control (speed limiting brakes) and seemed to land at a walking pace. What
> > a comfort during an off-field landing. Next best was my ASW 20 with 40
> > degree landing flaps - landed faster, of course, but nothing like my Std
> > Cirrus or the motorglider I fly now.
> >
> > I know there are people that don't go cross country because their glass
> > ship lands fast, and this disturbs them enough they don't have the
> > confidence to risk an off-airport landing. I haven't kept track of what
> > these people learned in, so I can't say starting in a faster glider would
> > have made the difference.
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> > Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> >
> > "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> > www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
> >
> > "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Martin Gregorie[_1_]

November 11th 06, 07:46 PM

Mike Schumann wrote:
> Unfortunately, I don't have enough flight experience yet to qualify to fly
> the Junior under the MSC rules.
>
I find that really surprising.

In my club, Cambridge GC, once you've soloed, probably in an ASK-21, you
fly your next five solo flights in the same two seater, have a couple
more check rides and then convert directly into the Junior. That's what
its for: it was designed as a single seater for the new solo pilot.

The student arm of the club own a Ka-8 but, AFAIK, they convert to the
Junior first and then to the Ka-8. There is a reason for that: the
Junior is easier to winch than the Ka-8.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Frank Whiteley

November 11th 06, 10:41 PM

http://tinyurl.com/yxety3
You may want to download this powerpoint presentation and view it
(13.3MB)
The presentation shows 7 in the original fleet, perhaps that was owned
as I recall a Krosno and another glider on their old web site, for a
total of 9. Perhaps leased and not owned.

Frank

Jack wrote:
> Jim Vincent wrote:
>
> > Another one that drank the coolaid.
>
> > "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> >> Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience. Philadelphia
> >> Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
> >> an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
> >> single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience. By
> >> eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
> >> amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
> >> the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.
> >>
> >> PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the promise
> >> of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
> >> students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
> >> be afraid to dream a bit.
>
>
>
> So, what's your solution, Jim?
>
>
> Jack

Jim Vincent

November 12th 06, 12:12 AM

Link is broken, I think.
"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> http://tinyurl.com/yxety3
> You may want to download this powerpoint presentation and view it
> (13.3MB)
> The presentation shows 7 in the original fleet, perhaps that was owned
> as I recall a Krosno and another glider on their old web site, for a
> total of 9. Perhaps leased and not owned.
>
> Frank
>
> Jack wrote:
>> Jim Vincent wrote:
>>
>> > Another one that drank the coolaid.
>>
>> > "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
>> > ups.com...
>> >> Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience.
>> >> Philadelphia
>> >> Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
>> >> an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
>> >> single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience.
>> >> By
>> >> eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
>> >> amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
>> >> the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.
>> >>
>> >> PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the
>> >> promise
>> >> of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
>> >> students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
>> >> be afraid to dream a bit.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, what's your solution, Jim?
>>
>>
>> Jack
>

Wayne Paul

November 12th 06, 12:28 AM

Jim,

I didn't have any trouble with the link, or with downloading the PowerPoint
presentation.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/

"Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
...
> Link is broken, I think.

> "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> http://tinyurl.com/yxety3
>> You may want to download this powerpoint presentation and view it
>> (13.3MB)
>> The presentation shows 7 in the original fleet, perhaps that was owned
>> as I recall a Krosno and another glider on their old web site, for a
>> total of 9. Perhaps leased and not owned.
>>
>> Frank

Stewart Kissel

November 12th 06, 12:50 AM

Jim Vincent wrote:
Another one that drank the coolaid.

So, what's your solution, Jim?
Jack

At 18:54 11 November 2006, Jim Vincent wrote:
Jack,

Fair question. I'll need a week or so to respond
to you since I'm caught up in my honey-do list and
a marketing campaign for my company.

Not even winter solstice yet...and one of our favorite
winter time topics has arisen from the ashes. Personally,
I say concede what little youth market there is to
paragliding...it is cheap, and highly visible. Even
chicks dig it. I am not saying abandon youth programs...but
use paragliding as the gateway. Where would soaring
be right now without hang-glider types with busted
landing gears?

I doubt too many of the hang-glider types converted
to soaring because they saw a couple of old codgers
sitting in lawn chairs scratching their sunspots with
a rusty 2-33 pulled up next to them at the mall.(I
stole this line from Pez) Remember the forecasts for
waves of new recruits upon the release of Thomas Crown
Affair 2?. And for that matter, an accomplished hang-glider
piilot probably does not need to hear the stories of
landing behind the enemy lines in Wacos on Normandy,
and spend hours, days, weeks,months pulling 2-33's
around on the ground.

I don't see a sane business model to build low-price
two place ships...the PW-6's are not exactly over-running
the market. Towplane costs, insurance and gas are
pretty much fixed. Winching would be great...but currently
it is rare.

Let them learn about thermals in paragliders...then
maybe we can snag them later.

Our market IMVHO, besides the aforementioned hg's...would
be software geeks, and aging skiers, bikers, windsurfers,
etc. .

Mike Schumann

November 12th 06, 03:45 AM

If you want to hook kids, you need to partner with a school and a local
corporation that is willing to put some money into science education, get a
winch, and run a low cost after school aviation program. The thing that
will hook the kids is the kick in the pants they get with every launch.

Mike Schumann

"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
message ...
> Jim Vincent wrote:
> Another one that drank the coolaid.
>
>
> So, what's your solution, Jim?
> Jack
>
> At 18:54 11 November 2006, Jim Vincent wrote:
> Jack,
>
> Fair question. I'll need a week or so to respond
> to you since I'm caught up in my honey-do list and
> a marketing campaign for my company.
>
>
> Not even winter solstice yet...and one of our favorite
> winter time topics has arisen from the ashes. Personally,
> I say concede what little youth market there is to
> paragliding...it is cheap, and highly visible. Even
> chicks dig it. I am not saying abandon youth programs...but
> use paragliding as the gateway. Where would soaring
> be right now without hang-glider types with busted
> landing gears?
>
> I doubt too many of the hang-glider types converted
> to soaring because they saw a couple of old codgers
> sitting in lawn chairs scratching their sunspots with
> a rusty 2-33 pulled up next to them at the mall.(I
> stole this line from Pez) Remember the forecasts for
> waves of new recruits upon the release of Thomas Crown
> Affair 2?. And for that matter, an accomplished hang-glider
> piilot probably does not need to hear the stories of
> landing behind the enemy lines in Wacos on Normandy,
> and spend hours, days, weeks,months pulling 2-33's
> around on the ground.
>
> I don't see a sane business model to build low-price
> two place ships...the PW-6's are not exactly over-running
> the market. Towplane costs, insurance and gas are
> pretty much fixed. Winching would be great...but currently
> it is rare.
>
> Let them learn about thermals in paragliders...then
> maybe we can snag them later.
>
> Our market IMVHO, besides the aforementioned hg's...would
> be software geeks, and aging skiers, bikers, windsurfers,
> etc. .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Frank Whiteley

November 12th 06, 07:11 AM

Although I agree the target market is junior/senior HS age,
institutional organizations (including corporations) have lawyered up
under 'risk management'. 25-30 years ago, universities had all manner
of acitivity/experience clubs, including equipment and gear, on campus.
Most of that's been moved off campus now. Campus clubs are mostly
social contact groups now.

I know a soaring club member whose daughter wanted to introduce her
junior ROTC unit to soaring. The school board decided it was too
dangerous.

Frank

Mike Schumann wrote:
> If you want to hook kids, you need to partner with a school and a local
> corporation that is willing to put some money into science education, get a
> winch, and run a low cost after school aviation program. The thing that
> will hook the kids is the kick in the pants they get with every launch.
>
> Mike Schumann
>
> "Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
> message ...
> > Jim Vincent wrote:
> > Another one that drank the coolaid.
> >
> >
> > So, what's your solution, Jim?
> > Jack
> >
> > At 18:54 11 November 2006, Jim Vincent wrote:
> > Jack,
> >
> > Fair question. I'll need a week or so to respond
> > to you since I'm caught up in my honey-do list and
> > a marketing campaign for my company.
> >
> >
> > Not even winter solstice yet...and one of our favorite
> > winter time topics has arisen from the ashes. Personally,
> > I say concede what little youth market there is to
> > paragliding...it is cheap, and highly visible. Even
> > chicks dig it. I am not saying abandon youth programs...but
> > use paragliding as the gateway. Where would soaring
> > be right now without hang-glider types with busted
> > landing gears?
> >
> > I doubt too many of the hang-glider types converted
> > to soaring because they saw a couple of old codgers
> > sitting in lawn chairs scratching their sunspots with
> > a rusty 2-33 pulled up next to them at the mall.(I
> > stole this line from Pez) Remember the forecasts for
> > waves of new recruits upon the release of Thomas Crown
> > Affair 2?. And for that matter, an accomplished hang-glider
> > piilot probably does not need to hear the stories of
> > landing behind the enemy lines in Wacos on Normandy,
> > and spend hours, days, weeks,months pulling 2-33's
> > around on the ground.
> >
> > I don't see a sane business model to build low-price
> > two place ships...the PW-6's are not exactly over-running
> > the market. Towplane costs, insurance and gas are
> > pretty much fixed. Winching would be great...but currently
> > it is rare.
> >
> > Let them learn about thermals in paragliders...then
> > maybe we can snag them later.
> >
> > Our market IMVHO, besides the aforementioned hg's...would
> > be software geeks, and aging skiers, bikers, windsurfers,
> > etc. .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Bruce Greef

November 12th 06, 06:59 PM

Excellent news, and presentation.

It is heartening to see the same logic applies world wide. In my region the
local gliding club has been bumping along with just enough members to about keep
it alive, flying vintage gliders and getting out of touch with the "market".

A couple of years ago a couple of dreamers decided it must be possible to do
things better. Starting from just about nothing in the neighbouring town, look
at them now http://www.akavlieg.co.za/ (well maybe not, as their web server
seems to be down). A fleet of representative glass, and a thriving club full of
ambitious young pilots.

Bruce (Currently working on a campaign to change the world. or at least the club)

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/yxety3
> You may want to download this powerpoint presentation and view it
> (13.3MB)
> The presentation shows 7 in the original fleet, perhaps that was owned
> as I recall a Krosno and another glider on their old web site, for a
> total of 9. Perhaps leased and not owned.
>
> Frank
>
> Jack wrote:
>
>>Jim Vincent wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Another one that drank the coolaid.
>>
>>>"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>>
>>>>Ah, hurdles. One of the banes of the soaring experience. Philadelphia
>>>>Glider Council eliminated the hurdles a few years back by changing to
>>>>an all glass fleet with 3*G-103's for training, 2*G102's for early
>>>>single seater and XC, and an ASW-19 for a bit better XC experience. By
>>>>eliminating the hurdles, they wound up with 6 gliders doing the same
>>>>amount of work of 9 diverse gliders in the previous fleet. Secondly,
>>>>the examiners said they were turning out better pilots.
>>>>
>>>>PGC's Bob Lacovara gives a convincing talk on delivering on the promise
>>>>of soaring. We promise the sleek, sexy glass slippers, but stick
>>>>students in the beat 2-33's. Better to deliver on the promise. Don't
>>>>be afraid to dream a bit.
>>
>>
>>
>>So, what's your solution, Jim?
>>
>>
>>Jack
>
>

Jim Vincent

November 14th 06, 12:36 AM

Well, I opened the link and waited...nothing. Any chance one of you could
email it to me directly or point me to the source? TIA.

"Wayne Paul" > wrote in message
...
> Jim,
>
> I didn't have any trouble with the link, or with downloading the
> PowerPoint presentation.
>
> Wayne
> HP-14 "6F"
> http://www.soaridaho.com/
>
>
> "Jim Vincent" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Link is broken, I think.
>
>
>> "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yxety3
>>> You may want to download this powerpoint presentation and view it
>>> (13.3MB)
>>> The presentation shows 7 in the original fleet, perhaps that was owned
>>> as I recall a Krosno and another glider on their old web site, for a
>>> total of 9. Perhaps leased and not owned.
>>>
>>> Frank
>
>

nate_fl

November 16th 06, 07:09 PM

I'm a newbie here, and this is my first post, so please be patient.

I'm a student glider pilot. In fact, I'm such a newbie that I'm
scheduled to solo this weekend. In the blazing hot Super Blanik.

I have a few thoughts as a recent glider convert that might be
illustrative to enticing people into the sport.

I'm pushing 40, so I'm no kid. I got into glider flying quite by
accident. I was trying to con a friend of mine into giving me SEL
instruction, since I've wanted to fly since I was a pup. He suggested
that I take a few glider lessons, stating that the fundamentals I built
would serve me well when I started flying power (I also think that he
wanted to get me out of his hair, but that's another story).

20-ish flights later, and I'm completely hooked. Why? For one, soaring
is truly flying for the fun of it. With airspace restrictions and
insurance woes, power flying is just not that fun. (caveat, I live
smack in the middle of Class B airspace, and have to commute about 30
miles to fly. Your mileage may vary.) Soaring is also very instructive
as far as the fundamentals...you can just hear/see/feel what the
aircraft is doing better in the L-23 than in a C172.

I'm a bit of a contrarian when it comes to cost. Yes, soaring is
expensive, but less so IMO than flying power. In this neck of the
woods, wet-rate rental for a C172 is a little bit more than $100/hr.
Add to that the instructor fee, and it gets very pricey. The days of
the "hundred-dollar hamburger" are gone...its more like the $300
burger! The AOPA's "Project Pilot" material compares a flying lesson as
"about the same as a round of golf". Where, on the moon? I'm no golfer
but I can't see a round of golf costing $200.

To be fair, there have been $200 days at the gliderport, but not on
average, and as your skill level in thermaling increases, the cost
should go down, yes? And even though sailplanes can be very costly,
compare that glass rocket sled to the cost of a new DA20 or Cirrus. And
don't forget tie-down fees and insurance.

$.02

Tom Gardner[_1_]

November 16th 06, 10:51 PM

T o d d P a t t i s t > wrote in
:

> "nate_fl" > wrote:
>
>>I'm a newbie here, and this is my first post, so please be patient.
>
> As a self proclaimed "newbie," do you mind a few questions?
>
> How important do you consider the performance/appearance of
> the glider you train in? Is the Super Blanik a negative,
> given fiberglass trainers? Would an older Blanik L-13 or
> even a 2-33 have been a big negative? Would you have paid
> more for better equipment?
>
> How did the people at the glider field treat you the first
> few times? Did you think they were snobbish and elitist or
> inclusive and friendly?

As another newbie, approaching 50 and not yet near
solo standard after 10 flights...

Appearance: yes the glass planes are undoubtedly more
sexy than the wooden planes. Do I care? Only very
slightly, since I want to use whatever is best for me.
OTOH, the DG1000 did do what I wanted it to, unlike
the K13 :)

I do think it beneficial for there to be a mixture of
grunt learning on K13s, with the occasional flight in
a modern plane to see what we can look forward to. OTOH,
one of the more memorable flights was in a K13 where
I was acting as ballast for an hour:
- the P1 kept up a running commentary of what
he was doing and why
- he knew how to fly the thing; it was a very
pleasant surprise to stay up for an hour
when the competitors in the regional
competition couldn't be bothered to fly
because the max thermal gave 2-3knots upwards

I've been to four fields; the smaller fields were
definitely more actively welcoming, but that tends
to true of any smaller community. I haven't
encountered any snobbishness or eliteism, but
I wouldn't have expected to run into it in the time
I've spent there. Ask me again in a year :)

tom gardner

nate_fl

November 17th 06, 02:50 PM

Personally, the type of glider I trained in didn't matter so much. The
Super Blanik was fine, in fact I liked the fact that it seemed so
substantial. IMHO, pre-solo instruction involves so much altitude
losing maneuvers (stalls and slips, plus poorly coordinated turns) that
any ship you fly will be an underperformer. The only other ship I've
flown in is a G103, and it wasn't really that "pretty" either. I would
think that most glider operations will not put their new, shiny ships
out there to be kicked around by some ham-handed student (like me)
doing everything possible to make their aircraft fall out of the sky.

As far as the folks, the operators and instructors at my place have
been super. Very supportive and accomodating. A lot of the folks that
hang around are friendly too, some more than others but you could say
that about any group of people.

As an initial impression, it seems as though soaring as a recreational
activity hasn't done a very good job of selling itself. Also, at least
here locally, airspace restrictions are a big issue with getting people
interested. The people that would probably like soaring best (young,
adventurous, eco-friendly) probably mostly live in urban areas that are
not conducive to flying a glider.

On Nov 16, 4:03 pm, T o d d P a t t i s t
> wrote:
> "nate_fl" > wrote:
> >I'm a newbie here, and this is my first post, so please be patient.As a self proclaimed "newbie," do you mind a few questions?
>
> How important do you consider the performance/appearance of
> the glider you train in? Is the Super Blanik a negative,
> given fiberglass trainers? Would an older Blanik L-13 or
> even a 2-33 have been a big negative? Would you have paid
> more for better equipment?
>
> How did the people at the glider field treat you the first
> few times? Did you think they were snobbish and elitist or
> inclusive and friendly?
> --
> T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)