Thrown out of an FBO...

[Jay Honeck]

Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
FBO.

To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.

It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
line guy.

Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
He then jovially sent us on our merry way.

After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
(always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.

As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
forward to another great flight home.

Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.

He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
the generosity of our pilot guests.

He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"

His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."

This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."

Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."


I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.

My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.

Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
-- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
edge.

We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
visit, so it won't matter much.

But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Capt.Doug]

>"Jay Honeck" wrote in message > It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there)

He has 6 charter pilots who make good wages. What does he need you for? He's
been a charter pilot for a long time. Must have a good business going. Can't
do that if he was tilting off the deck frequently for little reason. Must be
something wrong with you. :-)

Reminds me of the time I was turning final overhead of a trailer park in
bumf**k, Alabama. At the FBO counter, my boss asked if I wanted a rental
car, and I blurted out "seen one trailer park, seen 'em all". He and I
cracked huge grins, but the fellow behind the counter was embarrassed, as
was the boss's wife. Oh well- life goes on.

D.

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.

That's your conscience talking to you, Jay.

I have been in a similar situation twice. Both times I was the paying
customer and the other party was the small business person collecting money
from me.

The first time the bed and breakfast owner clearly overreacted to what was
a trivial issue and overstepped the line by tersely telling me that my
business was not welcome anymore. The second time a manager of a speedy
oil change shop, in response to my words, did the same. These two
incidents were separated by several years.

In the first incident with the B&B, I wrote a very strong letter after
returning home expressing the fact that I had wanted to make his B&B a
yearly tradition with my wife and me, but his overreaction had made me
think otherwise. However, I did apologize for my actions that caused the
outburst and ended the letter with the hope that he would write back to
make amends, too. He never did.

In the second incident, I returned to the oil change shop an hour after
storming off, parked my car, and walked up to the manager. The first words
out of my mouth were, "I am very sorry for overreacting and I feel really
bad for the way I acted. There is no excuse for my behavior."

He accepted my apology, extended a hand, and offered me a free oil change.
I politely declined, since I didn't want to take something I didn't
deserve.

In both cases, I felt I did what I could to correct the bad feelings. In
your situation, I recommend making a phone call to the FBO owner after
things cool down a bit. Offer your sincerest apology for what you
hopefully realize was a thoughtless and crass remark and let him know how
bad you felt on the return trip.

Whether or not you ever return to the FBO is irrelevant; at least you made
an attempt to rectify the bad feelings from that experience. The attempt
might do your conscience good.



--
Peter

[Jose[_1_]]

> "Yeah, the only time the tanks don't get filled
> at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"

He's right. It's a nasty overgeneralization. Like in flying, usually
mistakes don't bite, but this one happened to hit the mark.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[nrp]

I'll bet that's not the only time he has lost it. I wouldn't want to
work for him or charter from him if that's the sensitivity to a minor
comment. Some people and attitudes shouldn't be in aviation.

[gpsman]

Jay Honeck wrote: <brevity snip>
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..."

Ouch!

> he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."

Ouch!

> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.

Take it from an expert, you should've just apologized at the first ouch
and changed the subject to politics or religion.

It it were me, and I valued this relationship, I would find out one of
his favorite things, be it beer or cigars or White Castles and fly back
in at my earliest opportunity with a gift of same and a contrite
demeanor in tow.

You are obviously nice and conscientious visiting pilots, surely a
small gesture will overcome this slight misunderstanding.
-----

- gpsman

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
....
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."

Perhaps you missed that big election in some part of the world
yesterday, could well be the cause of his mood - I think I can guess
his political allegience, it's not a happy one ;-)

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> [...]
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.

Sorry, Jay. I would agree that his response was probably over the top, but
then it's hard to predict how a person will react when you insult them.
That reaction depends on a variety of factors, including something as simple
as how their day had been going so far.

You have no way of knowing in advance what those factors are, nor what the
reaction will be. It's why you ought to be careful in the first place about
throwing broad generalizations like that around. Yet, you managed TWO in a
single conversation (as if you could fix the first with another).

I've seen you post generalizations like that here in the past. Some times I
call you on it (to no avail), but most of the time I just ignore it (since
mentioning it does no good anyway). Maybe this experience will help you
rethink a little whether it's appropriate to stereotype people in the way
that you do. Just because most people would have handled your comments more
calmly, that doesn't mean your comments were appropriate.

And yes, I realize I'm probably just spittin' in the wind here...you
probably don't see any harm whatsoever in your comments, seeing how *your*
reaction to his was one of anger, rather than the embarassment that would
have been more appropriate. But you know me...I'm always willing to share
my two cents. :)

Pete

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:12:29 -0500, "Peter R." >
wrote in >:

> Offer your sincerest apology for what you
>hopefully realize was a thoughtless and crass remark

That would require insight and contrition. Doubtful.

[Jon Kraus]

What a funny story!! If he only how hard you bend over backwards to
NEVER say anything that could be construed as offensive, not matter how
you feel about a topic. :-)

You can choose to be bothered by this guy or not... That is up to you.
For myself I sure wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Let a few weeks go by
and then go back and see if he remembers you. He could have been just
having a bad day. Just my .02

Jon



Jay Honeck wrote:
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
> line guy.
>
> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>
> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>
> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
> forward to another great flight home.
>
> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>
> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>
> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.


As a former charter pilot, I didn't find your comments insulting or untrue.
Maybe that guy spread the cash around, but I can guarantee my employer didn't.

As for his thin skin, forget him. The world is a big place. Every town has a
greasy spoon you can visit. Life is too short to feel bad just because someone
decides to take offense at what was meant to be a joke.

That guy needs to go back to flying boxes in the middle of the night. He has no
aptitude for meeting the public.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Viperdoc[_3_]]

Jay:

My personal observations are that you and Mary are some of the most genteel,
warm, and non-threatening people that I have ever met or spoken with. It is
not your fault that some bone head old fart is hypersensitive, and you
should not take it personally. He is the one with the problem, not you.

Of course, it is upsetting, and ruins your day, but you took the higher
moral road and did nothing wrong. He is the one who should feel bad for
having hurt and insulted a potential customer. It was rude on his part.
Flying is a hobby that most of us do for enjoyment- I tell people that if I
need to get stressed over something I can always go back to work rather than
stay at the airport.

On the other hand, maybe you should go back to the FBO in central Iowa that
had the beautiful woman behind the counter- what was the identifier again?

Good luck. Still checking on the date for the MKE airshow.

[Jay Honeck]

> I've seen you post generalizations like that here in the past. Some times I
> call you on it (to no avail), but most of the time I just ignore it (since
> mentioning it does no good anyway). Maybe this experience will help you
> rethink a little whether it's appropriate to stereotype people in the way
> that you do. Just because most people would have handled your comments more
> calmly, that doesn't mean your comments were appropriate.

True, my comments were inappropriate given his position, and I regret
them. However, aside from the obvious fact that you never, EVER speak
with a customer the way he did, it is common knowledge that (a) most
charter pilots NEVER fill the courtesy car, and (b) we all know they
don't make diddly squat for salary -- which is why those of us who
provide courtesy cars turn the other cheek and continue to let them
borrow our cars.

You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."

We have shared this experience with FBO owners in dozens of locations
across America, and it has always brought a knowing laugh and nods of
agreement. Every FBO owner in the country knows that most charter
pilots are going to return their car with the gas gauge sitting on
"empty" -- it's just something we all live with.

My mistake was in believing that I was sharing an inside joke with an
FBO owner and fellow courtesy car provider. At least yesterday, this
guy was a charter pilot first, and an FBO owner as an afterthought --
and he took the joke personally.

At this point the best thing that might happen is that he sits down
with his pilots, and drills into them that they should ALWAYS fill the
courtesy car whenever they use it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> My personal observations are that you and Mary are some of the most genteel,
> warm, and non-threatening people that I have ever met or spoken with. It is
> not your fault that some bone head old fart is hypersensitive, and you
> should not take it personally. He is the one with the problem, not you.

Thanks. I needed that!

> On the other hand, maybe you should go back to the FBO in central Iowa that
> had the beautiful woman behind the counter- what was the identifier again?

Centerville, IA. I've got her card on my monitor -- Kathy Bratz is the
FBO owner's name. What a wonderful FBO, in a very similar town.
(And, incidentally, we both commiserated over our "charter pilots
versus courtesy car" woes, and shared a laugh together over it.)

> Good luck. Still checking on the date for the MKE airshow.

We're looking forward to it!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Stubby]

Expressing an opinion, a religious view, political stance or sexual
preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks. I'm sorry you got
hit, but you did have a good day for the most part.


Jay Honeck wrote:
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
> line guy.
>
> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>
> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>
> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
> forward to another great flight home.
>
> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>
> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>
> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:28:02 -0500, Stubby
> wrote in
>:

>Expressing an opinion, a religious view, political stance or sexual
>preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks.


"To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."
-- Elbert Hubbard

[[email protected]]

Geez Jay,,, are you sure the jokes were not not about flip flops and
cut offs and this guy wasn't Steven P McNicolls???
Jay Honeck wrote:
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
> line guy.
>
> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>
> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>
> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
> forward to another great flight home.
>
> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>
> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>
> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Ross Richardson[_2_]]

Peter R. wrote:
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>
>>But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
>
>
> That's your conscience talking to you, Jay.
>
> I have been in a similar situation twice. Both times I was the paying
> customer and the other party was the small business person collecting money
> from me.
>
> The first time the bed and breakfast owner clearly overreacted to what was
> a trivial issue and overstepped the line by tersely telling me that my
> business was not welcome anymore. The second time a manager of a speedy
> oil change shop, in response to my words, did the same. These two
> incidents were separated by several years.
>
> In the first incident with the B&B, I wrote a very strong letter after
> returning home expressing the fact that I had wanted to make his B&B a
> yearly tradition with my wife and me, but his overreaction had made me
> think otherwise. However, I did apologize for my actions that caused the
> outburst and ended the letter with the hope that he would write back to
> make amends, too. He never did.
>
> In the second incident, I returned to the oil change shop an hour after
> storming off, parked my car, and walked up to the manager. The first words
> out of my mouth were, "I am very sorry for overreacting and I feel really
> bad for the way I acted. There is no excuse for my behavior."
>
> He accepted my apology, extended a hand, and offered me a free oil change.
> I politely declined, since I didn't want to take something I didn't
> deserve.
>
> In both cases, I felt I did what I could to correct the bad feelings. In
> your situation, I recommend making a phone call to the FBO owner after
> things cool down a bit. Offer your sincerest apology for what you
> hopefully realize was a thoughtless and crass remark and let him know how
> bad you felt on the return trip.
>
> Whether or not you ever return to the FBO is irrelevant; at least you made
> an attempt to rectify the bad feelings from that experience. The attempt
> might do your conscience good.
>
>
>

Jay, I agree with the above also. You never really know what was going
on with him that day.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[The Visitor]

That guy has issues. You must have struck a nerve.

But the shoe fits. He just wanted to shoot the messenger.

Sure there are exceptions but generally you are right. Many will not tip
while away. They add up all the money spent tipping and a year and say
to themselves, "Hey, it's better in my pocket than theirs." It is purely
a business decision. I have been exposed to them. As for the car, I
think things have gotten better now, I wouldn't know. But you do because
you are there on the front lines every day. The thinking was they are
buying enough fuel, or will on a subsequent trip. It's just part of the
workday routine, like saving paperclips in an office. ??

Forget him. If he is really a charter pilot, what is he doing on the
ground? He should apologize to you and your wife. He obviously is used
to having a hair spring temper and getting away with it. Is his fbo the
only one there? Or can you park at a terminal area? Fueling area?

I even tip the cabbies when I was away.

John

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
> line guy.
>
> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>
> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>
> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
> forward to another great flight home.
>
> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>
> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>
> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

Don't sweat it Jay. Getting the same level of friendly service and
conversation that you and Mary provide at the Inn is very hard to come by.

Even if you hadn't planned on buying fuel (for Atlas), I would have gave him
a happy "No problem, thanks for letting us use the van, we'll tell all our
friends that you don't expect them to fill it with gas and by the way, let
your fuel guy know that we cancelled our fuel request." Then simply left,
letting him wonder how much you might have purchased.

The charter pilots that rub me raw are the ones that act like little tin
gods pretending that "they" have the sole decision making ability whether to
fly into a particular airport and or refuel at that airport. Most that I've
watched have had to call in and report the fuel price to someone who
actually gives them the approval. I doubt if that person gives a crap
whether the FBO has a courtesy car, a vending machine, or a bush to ****
behind, but the pilots put on an air that the FBO owes them special courtesy
because their company "might" buy some fuel. In my mind, these pilots earn
less of an FBO's appreciation than GA pilots. GA pilots usually have the
decision making ability and can choose to take their business elsewhere. I
understand that in cities or areas with multiple airports or at airports
with multiple FBO's, this might not be the case.

Another observation that I've made is that the most arrogant attitudes seem
to be expressed by the younger charter pilots. I've seen some older charter
pilots literally bend over backwards for their customers, play chauffer with
the rental car for them, offer extra food, soda, and even beer to the local
airport bumbs, even offer tours of their front offices. I've never seen any
of these actions exhibited by the young guns. Again, this is just my
observation and I'm sure it isn't the case everywhere.

Jim

[Doug[_1_]]

Send the FBO a card with a message saying that sometimes things dont
work out the way they were intended and sorry to offend and no offense
taken. If the guy wont be ok with that, then there isnt anything else
you can do.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:

JH> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often
JH> than that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only
JH> time the tanks don't get filled at our place is when hotel
JH> owners use our van -- those guys are the cheapest SOBs
JH> around!"

I changed two words in the "quote" above. How does it feel?

Others have already said it better than I. I'll just add that it
sounds like the guy is both a charter pilot and runs a business of
charter pilots, and you accidently insulted his entire professional
life. What to you was an overreaction to him might have been
considerable restraint.
--
A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying
anything real on real issues.
Theodore Roosevelt

[Steve Foley]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...

> Others have already said it better than I. I'll just add that it
> sounds like the guy is both a charter pilot and runs a business of
> charter pilots, and you accidently insulted his entire professional
> life. What to you was an overreaction to him might have been
> considerable restraint.

I wonder if he turned down a charter because he had a 'customer' who had
called ahead to make sure there was a courtesy car available?

Did the 'customer' buy anything, or was he just 'borrowing the car'?

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Bob Fry wrote:
> I changed two words in the "quote" above. How does it feel?
>
> Others have already said it better than I. I'll just add that it
> sounds like the guy is both a charter pilot and runs a business of
> charter pilots, and you accidently insulted his entire professional
> life. What to you was an overreaction to him might have been
> considerable restraint.


How politically correct of you to say so.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Gene Seibel]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.

Exactly what "business" did he drive off? Did you buy any avgas?
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> True, my comments were inappropriate given his position, and I regret
> them. However, aside from the obvious fact that you never, EVER speak
> with a customer the way he did, it is common knowledge that (a) most
> charter pilots NEVER fill the courtesy car, and (b) we all know they
> don't make diddly squat for salary -- which is why those of us who
> provide courtesy cars turn the other cheek and continue to let them
> borrow our cars.
>
> You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."

Yeah, I didn't think you'd actually get the point.

Last clue: "common knowledge" often has no bearing whatsoever on the truth,
and in your case is being used simply as an excuse to stereotype. Even if
in your experience, things are as you state (and frankly, even knowing who
is and who is not a charter pilot is not always easy to tell, and as far as
salaries go, unless you're asking everyone for financials as they come
through, you have NO way to know that), that does not justify painting all
charter pilots with the same brush.

I admit that the question of charter pilot behavior is not so socially
important as the question of race relations, but your way of thinking about
the former is exactly the same sort of thinking that causes problems in the
latter. The consequences of your prejudiced thinking may not be as serious,
but it's exactly the same mindset. It's not appropriate in any context.

Pete

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.



Well, he was just a crude redneck, you're lucky he didn't carry!

You were sarcastic, crass, and just like flying IFR, don't have a clue about
"charter pilots."

Karl
Ex chief pilot Part 135, 16 years. And yes, we always bought fuel for the
crew car. We also bought 550,000 gallons of jet fuel just on the road. We
also ALWAYS bought jet fuel at every stop whether we needed it or not
(courtesy fuel)

[Newps]

> On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:12:29 -0500, "Peter R." >
> wrote in >:
>
>
>>Offer your sincerest apology for what you
>>hopefully realize was a thoughtless and crass remark



But it was true.

[The Visitor]

Jay Honeck wrote:
"in his small town,"

Well then you were thrown out of more than an FBO.

I think you can brag about it now. : )


(Ha, I just had a funny thought. FBO could stand for something else.
Remember Austin Powers Scottish nemisis..... F B's Operation.)

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.

Your comments may have been too close to reality; or similar rumors
might have had a direct and negative effect on his business or
reputation in the past (in contexts where it was not clear that they
were jokes or mere rumors). Still, it seems like an extreme reaction.
Often people who react in this way to one thing will react in the same
way to many others; it's more of a personality characteristic than a
unique behavior linked to a specific, one-of-a-kind trigger.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Steve Foley]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."

Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?

[Stubby]

I like the quote. --Bill


Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:28:02 -0500, Stubby
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>> Expressing an opinion, a religious view, political stance or sexual
>> preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks.
>
>
> "To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."
> -- Elbert Hubbard

[Al G[_1_]]

I got thrown out of a landfill once. Yep, 86'd from a dump for life, after
questioning the managements "practices/Policy". I was always sort of proud
of it.

Al G





"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
> line guy.
>
> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>
> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>
> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
> forward to another great flight home.
>
> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>
> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>
> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Steve Foley wrote:
>
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?
>

If it's the same as mine, Jay's place is in rare company. <G>

[Bill Watson]

B A R R Y wrote:
> Steve Foley wrote:
>>
>> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs
>> chains?
>>
>
> If it's the same as mine, Jay's place is in rare company. <G>
>
Indeed. Same here. But no offense

[Bill Watson]

I guess I'm a bit of a PC guy. I've been thrown out of a few joints but
I've not been allowed in a few too. A bit sensitive I guess.

Jay, you did unknowingly insult the guy and his profession. It should
have rolled off his back but here is a presumably hard working guy being
insulted for what he may have spent the better part of his life doing.

What is the courtesy car calculus at an FBO? I've always assumed that
the working charter guys in aggregate bring a certain amount of business
thru in the form of fuel, tiedown, maintenance, whatever. The courtesy
cars are there in exchange for the business and in recognition of
aviation's toughest challenge - getting from flying machine to MickyDs.
Gas is part of the exchange.

On the other hand, weekend 100$ burger shoppers often bring zero$ but
benefit from courtesy cars just the same. I fill 'em up too but most of
them have disappeared from around here. Gas is part of the exchange it
just goes the other way.

Am I missing something here?

Mauledriver
If I said what I believe to be true and an easily observed fact, I'd be
worn out from kicking so much ass... or getting mine kicked.

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:ZRJ4h.9429$sw6.3725@trndny08...
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs
chains?

Awh, 'ell... I always figured that Honeck was a funny name for an Indian or
Pakistani...

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

This person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards a comment
he did not agree with. People get kicked out from establishments for
all kinds of reasons, due to political, health and religious choices
and some even go as far as racial discrimination. Although I can
understand your feelings, you should be glad that you have only
encountered this once in your life. Just last month my wife got kicked
out of a social club because of her choice not to get vaccinated. There
was no logic or reason behind this, what it boils down to is
intolerance towards different choices, and looking at everyone as 'with
us' or 'against us'.


Jay Honeck wrote:
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
> line guy.
>
> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>
> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>
> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
> forward to another great flight home.
>
> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>
> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>
> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> This person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards a comment
> he did not agree with.

Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.

> [...] what it boils down to is
> intolerance towards different choices, and looking at everyone as 'with
> us' or 'against us'.

This isn't about a "different choice". If I "choose", in a way different
from other people, to call you an asshole, or I tell you that every person
named "Andrew" that I've ever met was an idiot, and you react negatively
toward that, is it because you are "displaying an overt intolerance"? No,
it wouldn't be. It would be because *I* would be displaying an overt
prejudice. But you seem to think that I have every right to not only
believe something like that, but to tell it to your face, and expect you to
NOT react negatively.

Absurd.

I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior. I
realize it's popular today to call any sort of consideration for other
people's feelings "politically correct", but really...you guys seem to be
making a sport out of the practice. It doesn't matter how polite or
"genteel" a person is, being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.
I've known plenty of well-mannered people who nevertheless didn't have a
clue when it came to avoiding insulting stereotypes.

Jay is one of them (and this isn't the first time we've seen him proving
it).

Pete

[Sam]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
> line guy.
>
> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>
> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>
> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
> forward to another great flight home.
>
> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>
> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>
> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
Well, that should teach you to keep your mouth shut. We have all
had to learn that lesson.

Sam

[Phil]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> This person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards a comment
> he did not agree with. People get kicked out from establishments for
> all kinds of reasons, due to political, health and religious choices
> and some even go as far as racial discrimination. Although I can
> understand your feelings, you should be glad that you have only
> encountered this once in your life. Just last month my wife got kicked
> out of a social club because of her choice not to get vaccinated. There
> was no logic or reason behind this, what it boils down to is
> intolerance towards different choices, and looking at everyone as 'with
> us' or 'against us'.
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
>> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
>> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
>> FBO.
>>
>> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>>
>> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
>> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
>> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
>> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
>> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
>> line guy.
>>
>> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
>> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
>> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
>> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
>> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
>> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
>> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>>
>> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
>> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
>> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
>> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
>> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
>> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>>
>> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
>> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
>> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
>> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
>> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
>> forward to another great flight home.
>>
>> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
>> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
>> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
>> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
>> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>>
>> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
>> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
>> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
>> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
>> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>>
>> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
>> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
>> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
>> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>>
>> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
>> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
>> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
>> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
>> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
>> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
>> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>>
>> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
>> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
>> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>>
>> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
>> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
>> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
>> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
>> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
>> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>>
>>
>> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
>> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
>> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
>> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>>
>> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
>> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
>> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
>> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
>> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
>> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>>
>> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
>> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
>> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
>> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
>> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
>> edge.
>>
>> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
>> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
>> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
>> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
>> visit, so it won't matter much.
>>
>> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

We have heard one side of this story. Jay Honeck may be the most
credible person in the world, but the FBO guy may also have a side to
this event.
Just because you like Honeck, and hate FBO's like he seems to, doesn't
mean Honeck is pearly white and above reproach here.

Phil

[The Visitor]

Steve Foley wrote:


> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?
>
>

Even if you did speak up, he would not eject you from his hotel. In
fact, I suspect, you would probably still be welcome. Telling him to
leave and not come back was disporportionat and extreme. Waaaay over the
top. They fbo guy showed his real character.

John

[The Visitor]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
Just last month my wife got kicked
> out of a social club because of her choice not to get vaccinated.

Won't they feel stupid when they eventually find out it was because last
time she had such a severe reaction. At least that is why many people
here give it a pass.

John

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > This person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards a comment
> > he did not agree with.
>
> Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
> ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.
>
> > [...] what it boils down to is
> > intolerance towards different choices, and looking at everyone as 'with
> > us' or 'against us'.
>
> This isn't about a "different choice". If I "choose", in a way different
> from other people, to call you an asshole, or I tell you that every person
> named "Andrew" that I've ever met was an idiot, and you react negatively
> toward that, is it because you are "displaying an overt intolerance"? No,
> it wouldn't be. It would be because *I* would be displaying an overt
> prejudice. But you seem to think that I have every right to not only
> believe something like that, but to tell it to your face, and expect you to
> NOT react negatively.
>
> Absurd.
>
> I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior. I
> realize it's popular today to call any sort of consideration for other
> people's feelings "politically correct", but really...you guys seem to be
> making a sport out of the practice. It doesn't matter how polite or
> "genteel" a person is, being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.
> I've known plenty of well-mannered people who nevertheless didn't have a
> clue when it came to avoiding insulting stereotypes.
>
> Jay is one of them (and this isn't the first time we've seen him proving
> it).
>
> Pete

What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
others. Some of these opinions could be wrong (and all of us are wrong
one time or another), but if the other person reacts violently, then
the person offering his opinion is only going to widthraw and harden
his beliefs. Dialog and respect to other's opinion is the only way to
overcome misinformation and improve understanding. If we start throwing
people out or getting upset at the first sign of disagreement, we will
never find a solution to our problems.

Based on Jay's description, he made a comment which he thought was
funny. He may have been insensitive, but I don't think he walked up to
that guy with the intention of insulting him. The right thing for the
FBO guy to do would be respond to Jay with common courtersy and
straighten his misconceptions about corporate pilots. 'Throwing him
out' only serves to harden the negative view Jay may have about
corporate pilots. It does nothing to improve relations.

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > This person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards a comment
> > he did not agree with.
>
> Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
> ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.
>
> > [...] what it boils down to is
> > intolerance towards different choices, and looking at everyone as 'with
> > us' or 'against us'.
>
> This isn't about a "different choice". If I "choose", in a way different
> from other people, to call you an asshole, or I tell you that every person
> named "Andrew" that I've ever met was an idiot, and you react negatively
> toward that, is it because you are "displaying an overt intolerance"? No,
> it wouldn't be. It would be because *I* would be displaying an overt
> prejudice. But you seem to think that I have every right to not only
> believe something like that, but to tell it to your face, and expect you to
> NOT react negatively.
>
> Absurd.
>
> I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior. I
> realize it's popular today to call any sort of consideration for other
> people's feelings "politically correct", but really...you guys seem to be
> making a sport out of the practice. It doesn't matter how polite or
> "genteel" a person is, being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.
> I've known plenty of well-mannered people who nevertheless didn't have a
> clue when it came to avoiding insulting stereotypes.
>
> Jay is one of them (and this isn't the first time we've seen him proving
> it).
>
> Pete

What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
others. Some of these opinions could be wrong (and all of us are wrong
one time or another), but if the other person reacts violently, then
the person offering his opinion is only going to widthraw and harden
his beliefs. Dialog and respect to other's opinion is the only way to
overcome misinformation and improve understanding. If we start throwing
people out or getting upset at the first sign of disagreement, we will
never find a solution to our problems.

Based on Jay's description, he made a comment which he thought was
funny. He may have been insensitive, but I don't think he walked up to
that guy with the intention of insulting him. The right thing for the
FBO guy to do would be respond to Jay with common courtersy and
straighten his misconceptions about corporate pilots. 'Throwing him
out' only serves to harden the negative view Jay may have about
corporate pilots. It does nothing to improve relations.

[NVArt]

I remember Groucho saying: "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that
would have me for a member".

[Newps]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>This person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards a comment
>>he did not agree with.
>
>
> Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
> ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.

He couldn't know it to be false. He was a sample of one.

[Newps]

Peter Duniho wrote:

being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.



The truth is not prejudiced.

[gatt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> True, my comments were inappropriate given his position, and I regret
> them. However, aside from the obvious fact that you never, EVER speak
> with a customer the way he did, it is common knowledge that (a) most
> charter pilots NEVER fill the courtesy car, and (b) we all know they
> don't make diddly squat for salary -- which is why those of us who provide
> courtesy cars turn the other cheek and continue to let them
> borrow our cars.

In other words, you made a joke as a customer to a peer based on your own
experience. He reacted negatively, you tried to make the best of it, he
called you a name (literally...the "Kerry" thing.) Unfortunately, I've
known a couple of belligerent pinheads like that. They have anger management
and security issues and, even when slightly offended they perceive that the
manly thing to do is throw their weight around and verbally abuse people.

Damned if I'd want a mentality like that in -my- cockpit. I knew an FBO
owner in Baton Rouge who was similarly incapable of civil discourse at even
the slightest disagreement.

Sure, maybe you offended him. You didn't mean it. You tried to dilute the
moment and he chose to storm off in a huff even after you paid him the
monetary favor of filling his tank. It's not your problem.


-c

[Al G[_1_]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
>> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
>> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
>> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
>> visit, so it won't matter much.
>>
>> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
>
>
> As a former charter pilot, I didn't find your comments insulting or
> untrue. Maybe that guy spread the cash around, but I can guarantee my
> employer didn't.
>

I have to agree. I too flew 135 for years, and quite frankly
couldn't afford lunch, let alone gas. I didn't find your comments insulting
or untrue. Your comment was simply an expression of your experience. You
were not making general statements about charter pilots everywhere, just at
your hotel. If he was really offended, maybe the shoe fit?

Al G

[mike regish]

Or, maybe, that you stop making generalizations to people you don't know.
Stereotyping people with little or nothing to go on is something I've seen
before from you. You never really know just who you might be talking to. I'd
say you stepped on it.

mike

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message

>
> At this point the best thing that might happen is that he sits down
> with his pilots, and drills into them that they should ALWAYS fill the
> courtesy car whenever they use it.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[mike regish]

They're just hoping for a discount if they ever decide to visit "Alex's
Park-in".

mike

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...

>
> I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior.

[mike regish]

Watched a show on the KKK the other day. Don't see how you can listen to any
of those guys' opinions without getting ****ed. But, hey...that's just me.

mike

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message

>
> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
> others.

[Matt Whiting]

Newps wrote:

> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic
> and if the statement is true then it's true.

The point is that Jay hasn't seen every charter pilot out there. He's
seen a small sample, and possibly an unusually unrepresentative sample,
who nows? Making a sweeping generalization based on a small sample
isn't usually a good idea.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Steve Foley wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>
>>You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."
>
>
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?
>
>

Ha, ha, ha ... I was thinking the same thing... :-)

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

gatt wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>
>>True, my comments were inappropriate given his position, and I regret
>>them. However, aside from the obvious fact that you never, EVER speak
>>with a customer the way he did, it is common knowledge that (a) most
>>charter pilots NEVER fill the courtesy car, and (b) we all know they
>>don't make diddly squat for salary -- which is why those of us who provide
>>courtesy cars turn the other cheek and continue to let them
>>borrow our cars.
>
>
> In other words, you made a joke as a customer to a peer based on your own
> experience. He reacted negatively, you tried to make the best of it, he
> called you a name (literally...the "Kerry" thing.) Unfortunately, I've
> known a couple of belligerent pinheads like that. They have anger management
> and security issues and, even when slightly offended they perceive that the
> manly thing to do is throw their weight around and verbally abuse people.

Yes, that Kerry comment really was nasty! :-)

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:28:02 -0500, Stubby
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>
>>Expressing an opinion, a religious view, political stance or sexual
>>preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks.
>
>
>
> "To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."
> -- Elbert Hubbard

That won't work either.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Al G wrote:

> I got thrown out of a landfill once. Yep, 86'd from a dump for life, after
> questioning the managements "practices/Policy". I was always sort of proud
> of it.

Well, Jay, you've definitely been upstaged! :-)

Matt

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "AS" == Andrew Sarangan > writes:

AS> People get kicked out from
AS> establishments for all kinds of reasons, due to political,
AS> health and religious choices and some even go as far as racial
AS> discrimination.

Really...I don't know of anyone refused entrance or kicked out.
California has a much higher tolerance level.
--
She got her good looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon.
Groucho Marx

[Scott Post]

In article >,
Al G > wrote:
>I got thrown out of a landfill once. Yep, 86'd from a dump for life, after
>questioning the managements "practices/Policy". I was always sort of proud
>of it.
>

I was with a drunken group that got thrown out of a porno shop in Amsterdam
for laughing at the merchandise. Saw three video titles with the word "virgin"
in them all with a picture of the same actress on the front. The owner
said if we couldn't be serious we'd have to leave.

--
Scott Post

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Al G wrote:
> I have to agree. I too flew 135 for years, and quite frankly
> couldn't afford lunch, let alone gas. I didn't find your comments insulting
> or untrue. Your comment was simply an expression of your experience. You
> were not making general statements about charter pilots everywhere, just at
> your hotel. If he was really offended, maybe the shoe fit?



One thing I've learned over the years is that the more defensive a person
becomes, the guiltier they feel.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[John Theune]

mike regish wrote:
> Or, maybe, that you stop making generalizations to people you don't know.
> Stereotyping people with little or nothing to go on is something I've seen
> before from you. You never really know just who you might be talking to. I'd
> say you stepped on it.
>
> mike
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
>> At this point the best thing that might happen is that he sits down
>> with his pilots, and drills into them that they should ALWAYS fill the
>> courtesy car whenever they use it.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>
>
Actually he made a generalization about people he did know. He has had
contact with charter pilots and courtesy cars. I'd hazard to guess he's
has had more contacts in that situation then you or I have had. While
his experience does not cover all charter pilots, he does have some data
points to back his thoughts.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Stubby" > wrote

> Expressing an opinion, a religious view, political stance or sexual
> preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks. I'm sorry you got
> hit, but you did have a good day for the most part.

Welcome to the "United States of the Offended."
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Richard Riley" > wrote

> If the Charter Pilot isn't aware that the people in his profession
> have a bad reputation, he is either a) in insular hermet living in a
> bubble or b) a moron. Jay did him a favor by letting him know that
> Charter Pilots are generally cheap, immature, insulting and superior.
>
> He then proved the point.

Damn! In these few above words, the point was summarized the best, of any of
the previous posts.

Ded on, Richard!
--
Jim in NC

P.S. : I'll be damned if I would try, in any way, to win back that guy. If
that makes me a bad person, so be it. I don't think I am, and that is what
counts, in the long run.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:56:35 GMT, Bill Watson >
wrote in >:

>Am I missing something here?

Mr. Honeck only purchases mogas.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 19:18:32 GMT, "Grumman-581"
> wrote in
>:

>So, you should use "a" instead of "an"? Damn, this PC **** is
>complicated...

Actually, it's called English grammar.

[kontiki]

Sam wrote:
> Well, that should teach you to keep your mouth shut. We have all
> had to learn that lesson.
>
> Sam

All pilots are weirdos.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:53:49 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote in
>:

>I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior. I
>realize it's popular today to call any sort of consideration for other
>people's feelings "politically correct", but really...you guys seem to be
>making a sport out of the practice. It doesn't matter how polite or
>"genteel" a person is, being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.
>I've known plenty of well-mannered people who nevertheless didn't have a
>clue when it came to avoiding insulting stereotypes.

You haven't spent much time in the mid west.

[mike regish]

He didn't know that particular person...obviously.

mike

"John Theune" > wrote in message
news:2MO4h.6608$Tz.5453@trndny01...
>>
> Actually he made a generalization about people he did know. He has had
> contact with charter pilots and courtesy cars. I'd hazard to guess he's
> has had more contacts in that situation then you or I have had. While his
> experience does not cover all charter pilots, he does have some data
> points to back his thoughts.

[Jay Honeck]

> > You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."
>
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?

Sure!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Awh, 'ell... I always figured that Honeck was a funny name for an Indian or
> Pakistani...

Actually, many Pakistani motel owners are named "Jay" -- but their last
name is usually "Patel".

The Patel family has quietly and inexorably bought up nearly every
econobox motel in the country, one by one, simply by bringing more
family members over as properties became available.

In many cases their motels are quite excellent. In a seemingly equal
number of cases, their motels are simply appalling. I've not taken to
time to determine why, any more than I've figured out why 2 out of 3
restaurants suck and usually fail within three years.

The trick is to finding a good, privately owned HOTEL (not motel) is to
find the ones that are also members of their bed & breakfast guilds, as
we are. They are few and far between, but denote a level of excellence
that far exceeds the average MOtel.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Geez Jay,,, are you sure the jokes were not not about flip flops and
> cut offs and this guy wasn't Steven P McNicolls???

I can almost guarantee that Steven would NOT be rude in any way, just
on reading his posts for all these years. Although his debate tactics
drive me crazy, he *is* a perfect gentleman, most of the time.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Exactly what "business" did he drive off? Did you buy any avgas?

Not this time. However, airports are publically owned for a reason --
their primary impact is that they bring lots of dollars into the local
economy. Thus, the "business" this guy drove off was the $30 we spent
at the local restaurant, the $15 we spent at the local gas station
(filling HIS tank) plus any future business we could provide to his
FBO.

To better illustrate this effect, an Iowa State University study (done
in 2000) of Iowa airports shows that our Iowa City airport directly and
INDIRECTLY brings $5.7 million dollars per year into the local economy.
That's a nice chunk of change, and is made up of hundreds
(thousands?) of little guys like me (and Mary) flying in.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I was with a drunken group that got thrown out of a porno shop in Amsterdam
> for laughing at the merchandise. Saw three video titles with the word "virgin"
> in them all with a picture of the same actress on the front. The owner
> said if we couldn't be serious we'd have to leave.

Serious? In a porno shop? With a bunch of guys?

Wow, your story sure beats mine -- OR the landfill story!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> >Am I missing something here?
>
> Mr. Honeck only purchases mogas.

Untrue.

Mogas is only available for sale at airports that are run by
enlightened FBO owners -- and they (and mogas) are few and far between.

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Al G[_1_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> I was with a drunken group that got thrown out of a porno shop in
>> Amsterdam
>> for laughing at the merchandise. Saw three video titles with the word
>> "virgin"
>> in them all with a picture of the same actress on the front. The owner
>> said if we couldn't be serious we'd have to leave.
>
> Serious? In a porno shop? With a bunch of guys?
>
> Wow, your story sure beats mine -- OR the landfill story!
>

Jay, you're right. I concede.

Al G

[Jose[_1_]]

> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic and if the statement is true then it's true.

It has nothing to do with race. Race (in my example) is just a stand-in
for =any= group which is percieved as being less worthy. In that, race
is no different than occupation.

And if it's true for a racial group, why is it not ok to say so?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> On the other hand, weekend 100$ burger shoppers often bring zero$ but
> benefit from courtesy cars just the same. I fill 'em up too but most of
> them have disappeared from around here. Gas is part of the exchange it
> just goes the other way.
>
> Am I missing something here?

We have designed our hotel to be a destination for private pilots. As
such, our suites have aviation themes, private jacuzzis, full kitchens,
a delivered breakfast, full kitchens, free internet, a massage
therapist, workout room, pool, etc...

All of these niceties result in a private pilot who brings his gal to
the inn for a weekend getaway, and will drop between $150 and $400 for
the weekend. In exchange, we are more than happy to provide them with
free pick-up/drop-off service, and free use of our full-sized Ford
Econoline conversion van. All we ask is that they put a little gas in
it.

Charter pilots, on the other hand, often ask for "day" rates (which we
won't offer), and arrive/depart at unpredictable times, making
pick-up/drop-off service difficult. Despite this, we bend ourselves
into a pretzel for them, because we love ALL pilots, and know the
plight these (usually) young guys are facing. They are quite literally
making NO money, their life-style sucks, and half the time they don't
even know what city they're in when they wake up in the morning.

They *always* ask for the cheapest possible rooms -- and are always
thrilled when they discover that they get to use our $35K van for free,
and that we deliver breakfast to their suite in the morning -- even
though they're staying in our cheapest suite. Every last one of them
leaves our place grateful and thankful -- but every last one of them
never, ever, EVER puts a drop of gas in the courtesy van.

Perhaps it's because of the phenomenon you've described, Bill -- they
are so used to being the guys who get a "free ride" at the FBO because
their company bought 700 gallons of Jet-A, that they simply can't get
their minds around an airport business like ours (which is rarer than
hen's teeth, for sure!) where they are NOT the big honchos at the
ranch?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose[_1_]]

> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
> others.

.... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap *******s"?

Does it even matter if, in your experience, it's true?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> We have heard one side of this story. Jay Honeck may be the most
> credible person in the world, but the FBO guy may also have a side to
> this event.
> Just because you like Honeck, and hate FBO's like he seems to, doesn't
> mean Honeck is pearly white and above reproach here.
>
> Phil

Now I "hate FBOs"?! Good God, Phil, where did you ever get *that*
idea?

I don't mind you guys chiming in with your opinions -- after all, I
chose to post my experience here, opening myself up to comments from
all side of the issue -- but please don't make up stuff like this.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bill Watson]

Well Jay, I definitely get all that. You are definitely in a different
situation than an FBO.

It's always seems like it's a matter of perspective.

I hope we make it out your way sometime soon. We'd love to see your hotel.

Thanks for the post as usual!

MauleDriver

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> On the other hand, weekend 100$ burger shoppers often bring zero$ but
>> benefit from courtesy cars just the same. I fill 'em up too but most of
>> them have disappeared from around here. Gas is part of the exchange it
>> just goes the other way.
>>
>> Am I missing something here?
>
> We have designed our hotel to be a destination for private pilots. As
> such, our suites have aviation themes, private jacuzzis, full kitchens,
> a delivered breakfast, full kitchens, free internet, a massage
> therapist, workout room, pool, etc...
>
> All of these niceties result in a private pilot who brings his gal to
> the inn for a weekend getaway, and will drop between $150 and $400 for
> the weekend. In exchange, we are more than happy to provide them with
> free pick-up/drop-off service, and free use of our full-sized Ford
> Econoline conversion van. All we ask is that they put a little gas in
> it.
>
> Charter pilots, on the other hand, often ask for "day" rates (which we
> won't offer), and arrive/depart at unpredictable times, making
> pick-up/drop-off service difficult. Despite this, we bend ourselves
> into a pretzel for them, because we love ALL pilots, and know the
> plight these (usually) young guys are facing. They are quite literally
> making NO money, their life-style sucks, and half the time they don't
> even know what city they're in when they wake up in the morning.
>
> They *always* ask for the cheapest possible rooms -- and are always
> thrilled when they discover that they get to use our $35K van for free,
> and that we deliver breakfast to their suite in the morning -- even
> though they're staying in our cheapest suite. Every last one of them
> leaves our place grateful and thankful -- but every last one of them
> never, ever, EVER puts a drop of gas in the courtesy van.
>
> Perhaps it's because of the phenomenon you've described, Bill -- they
> are so used to being the guys who get a "free ride" at the FBO because
> their company bought 700 gallons of Jet-A, that they simply can't get
> their minds around an airport business like ours (which is rarer than
> hen's teeth, for sure!) where they are NOT the big honchos at the
> ranch?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Newps]

Jose wrote:
>> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic
>> and if the statement is true then it's true.
>
>
> It has nothing to do with race. Race (in my example) is just a stand-in
> for =any= group which is percieved as being less worthy.

In this case it's actually true.




>
> And if it's true for a racial group, why is it not ok to say so?

It would be OK to say, if it were true.

[Peter Duniho]

"John Theune" > wrote in message
news:2MO4h.6608$Tz.5453@trndny01...
> [...] While his experience does not cover all charter pilots, he does have
> some data points to back his thoughts.

He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing "all"
charter pilots. Even the comment about whether they fill up the tank in the
car isn't supported, and I doubt he's got salary information for enough
charter pilots to even use up the fingers on one hand.

The funny thing is that he could have simply worded his statement
differently, describing only charter pilots he'd met. The guy might still
have gotten offended, but Jay would have been completely in the right to
describe the people he's actually met.

Of course, avoiding a sweeping generalization in such a manner as that is
probably something that would never occur to Jay, just as it still has not
occurred to him that he contributed to the situation somehow.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
> others.

Well, first of all, Jay made his statement as one of fact, not opinion.
Secondly, I completely disagree that ALL opinions should be able to be made
without fear of a negative reaction (reprimand or otherwise). There are
LOTS of opinions that should be kept to oneself.

And before you go calling that attitude "politically correct", if you feel
that's the case then "politically correct" has been around for thousands of
years. Ironically, the culture within the US best known for its racism and
other inappropriate opinions is the one best known for being able to keep
those opinions to themselves and remain well-mannered and polite, even with
people that they scorn.

> Some of these opinions could be wrong (and all of us are wrong
> one time or another), but if the other person reacts violently, then
> the person offering his opinion is only going to widthraw and harden
> his beliefs.

I never said the other guy's reaction was appropriate. Personally, I'm
hard-pressed to think of any conversational faux pas that would justify
ejecting someone from a place of business. However, that doesn't mean Jay's
comment was appropriate in the first place. It just means that one would
normally expect the other person to take some higher ground than the
platform Jay was speaking from.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>> Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
>> ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.
>
> He couldn't know it to be false. He was a sample of one.

It only takes a sample of one to disprove a claim about "all".

Duh.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jose wrote:
>> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
>> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
>> others.
>
> ... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap *******s"?
>
> Does it even matter if, in your experience, it's true?


Oh, good God... now I've heard it all. Jews have a long history of being
discriminated against in every part of the world. Some Jews are even
discriminated against in Israel. To your knowledge, what charter pilot has had
to deal with that sort of discrimination? Is there a large portion of the
world's population dedicating themselves to the destruction of charter pilots?

What an incredibly .... words fail me.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> I never said the other guy's reaction was appropriate. Personally, I'm
> hard-pressed to think of any conversational faux pas that would justify
> ejecting someone from a place of business. However, that doesn't mean Jay's
> comment was appropriate in the first place. It just means that one would
> normally expect the other person to take some higher ground than the
> platform Jay was speaking from.



You're from California, right? Or Washington state?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Buck Murdock]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> ...to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."

That's what you get for trying to make intelligent conversation with a
hard-core Republican!

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Jose wrote:
> > What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
> > opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
> > others.
>
> ... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap *******s"?
>
> Does it even matter if, in your experience, it's true?
>
> Jose

If someone says "all pilots are spolied rich men", would you throw him
out of your house/airport/business? I hope not, because if you do, then
you will only be reinforcing that person's opinion of pilots. Instead,
I hope you will talk to that person calmly and patiently and educate
him on the subject.

If, on the other hand, Jay had walked up to the FBO pounding his fist
on the table, shouting to everyone at the lobby that all corporate
pilots are scums/*******s/assholes etc.. I could understand if he were
being thrown out, just like someone would get thrown out of a
restaurant/theater/airplane due to improper conduct. But that was
clearly not the case here.

The comment you mentioned above about Jews is not the same as the
examples we are talking about., The sole purpose of that comment is
derogatory and is meant to offend someone. I would rate that comment
along the same line as Jay pounding his fist and shouting at the FBO,
both of which call for a 'throwing out'.

[Judah]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
:

> I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior.

Why? Because of the number of people who flipped their lids and crucified
MXSManic for saying that flying is a Rich Man's Sport? ;)

[Judah]

Jose > wrote in
t:

>> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic
>> and if the statement is true then it's true.
>
> It has nothing to do with race. Race (in my example) is just a stand-in
> for =any= group which is percieved as being less worthy. In that, race
> is no different than occupation.
>
> And if it's true for a racial group, why is it not ok to say so?
>
> Jose

How is being cheap considered to be less worthy?

Some people think being thrifty and cost conscious is a good thing.

(Of course, I'm also Jewish.)

[george]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > >Am I missing something here?
> >
> > Mr. Honeck only purchases mogas.
>
> Untrue.
>
> Mogas is only available for sale at airports that are run by
> enlightened FBO owners -- and they (and mogas) are few and far between.
>

I have the feeling that if you make enquiries on that particular
aitfield you may find that the FBO attendant has a history of that
behaviour.
Stop kicking yourself Jay you had the bad luck to run into a pillock

[Judah]

"mike regish" > wrote in
:

> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
>>
>> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
>> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
>> others.
>
> Watched a show on the KKK the other day. Don't see how you can listen to
> any of those guys' opinions without getting ****ed. But, hey...that's
> just me.

Yeah, but they take the "Jews are cheap *******s" to the next level by
adding, "so we should burn crosses on their lawn and kill them all."

And that's where their opinion goes from being mostly harmless, silly
stereotype to offensive and perhaps even intolerable.

But tolerance is not just about tolerating the differences that we all
have. It's about tolerating the people who don't - at least long enough to
have a chance to educate them. Sure, Jay's joke was insensitive and
tasteless. But it wasn't all that harmful by itself.

The reaction of the FBO Owner / Charter Pilot was immature and useless. He
would have been much better to smile and say, "I bet you didn't know I am
also a Charter Pilot." Then he might have changed Jay's opinion, even if
just a bit.

Tolerance goes both ways. If every time people get offended they
immediately shut the door and stomp their feet, no one will ever change.

[Jay Honeck]

> I hope we make it out your way sometime soon. We'd love to see your hotel.

Well, there's always OSH '07, if not beforehand? I've even found a
Maule flight model for the Kiwi...for your "flying" enjoyment!

> Thanks for the post as usual!

My pleasure. This group serves as an excellent sounding board for all
of our flying experiences, as well as (sometimes unwilling) guinea pigs
for each chapter of our life's story. As always, I receive far more
than I give.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[The Visitor]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing "all"
> charter pilots.

Do you not need more data points to dispute it?

[Jay Honeck]

> Stop kicking yourself Jay you had the bad luck to run into a pillock

It's not every day that I have to refer to my dictionary to decipher a
post on Usenet, but you sent me to my Oxford for that one. "Pillock"
is not a word I had ever heard, before, but I like the ring of it.

Best of all, you can sling it at someone (at least in Midwestern
America) with confidence that they won't know that they've been called
a stupid idiot, or worse...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > ...to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> > folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
> That's what you get for trying to make intelligent conversation with a
> hard-core Republican!

Hee hee! Ahem.

I'll have you know that I have been accused of being a Republican from
time to time, back when they still existed. Alas, I haven't seen one
for some time, and have been cast adrift into a political wasteland.
For the first time in my life I understand why so few of my peers
bother to vote anymore...

Personally, I thought his Kerry crack was pretty funny, and I actually
held out hope that it meant his attitude was turning humorous.
Unfortunately, his next sentence (inviting us not to come back) proved
me wrong.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination

[Jose[_1_]]

>> It has nothing to do with race. Race (in my example) is just a stand-in for =any= group which is percieved as being less worthy.
> In this case it's actually true.

>> And if it's true for a racial group, why is it not ok to say so?
> It would be OK to say, if it were true.

There are some neighborhoods where it is true. There are people in
whose experience it is true.

It is certainly legal to say so. It is not very civilized to do so in a
social situation however.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Oh, good God... now I've heard it all. Jews have...

> What an incredibly .... words fail me.

Getting offended now, are we?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Newps wrote:
>
>> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic and if
>> the statement is true then it's true.
>
> The point is that Jay hasn't seen every charter pilot out there. He's seen a
> small sample, and possibly an unusually unrepresentative sample, who nows?
> Making a sweeping generalization based on a small sample isn't usually a good
> idea.

I'll bet that he has more experience at running an airport courtesy car than you
do, or most people on the group, for that matter.

I would say that makes him uniquely qualified to comment.
--
Jim in NC

[Jose[_1_]]

> If someone says "all pilots are spolied rich men", would you throw him
> out of your house/airport/business?

It doesn't matter what I would do. That I would not do so does not make
such a comment polite.

> The comment you mentioned above about Jews is not the same as the
> examples we are talking about., The sole purpose of that comment is
> derogatory and is meant to offend someone. I would rate that comment
> along the same line as Jay pounding his fist and shouting at the FBO,
> both of which call for a 'throwing out'.

Uh.... no.

The comment I mentioned about Jews
--> "in my experience, Jews are all cheap *******s"
is quite similar to Jay's comment:
--> "those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"

Suppose the exchange had been a little different. The FBO owner is
Jewish, her husband is a Rabbi, and Jay (unknowingly) says:
"Yeah, the only time the tanks don't get filled
at our place is when a Rabbi uses our van --
those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"

I really don't see the difference.

Jay walked in with a superior attitude which came to light in this exchange.

He did a nice thing - filling the tank. But then, tipping a waitress is
also a nice thing, isn't it? How about tipping your doctor after an
exam? That's just not done, and a doctor would probably refuse (and may
even be insulted). Tipping is often seen as something one does to
servants; it helps reinforce class distinctions.

--> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that..."
He turned down the tip, in a sense.

--> "Yeah, the only time the tanks don't get filled
at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"

That is effectively saying that Jay is better than those SOBs because he
filled the tank. Since the FBO person was also a charter pilot, Jay
must be better than him.

Not that he meant to insult him, but that's how the person took it, and
that is fair enough. What Jay said was insulting, even if (nudge nudge
wink wink)...

Jay, instead of apologizing, =justifies= his insult, saying that they
aren't paid enough. That's an example of the "superior attitude" I
refer to. Accident chain in progress - he's talking to the guy who pays
the charter pilots.

Then to top it off, they add insult to insult, when after being
(justifiably) thrown out, Mary comments that "Avoiding this place
shouldn't be too hard."

It may come to pass that somebody will get Jay's goat at the hotel, and
Jay will throw that SOB out on his derrier, fully believing he's in the
right. I wonder what =that= story will look like.

Jay says:
> It's a shame -- with all the problems facing GA,
> small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have

I say that it's a shame that Jay insults and demeans fellow pilots who
are struggling to make a living at flying, and who are probably quite
generous in other ways. I'd go as far as to say that just =being= a
charter pilot is an act of generosity in itself.

Jay says:
> My mistake was in believing that I was sharing an inside joke with an
> FBO owner and fellow courtesy car provider. At least yesterday, this
> guy was a charter pilot first, and an FBO owner as an afterthought --
> and he took the joke personally.
>
> At this point the best thing that might happen is that he sits down
> with his pilots, and drills into them that they should ALWAYS fill the
> courtesy car whenever they use it.

His mistake was more arrogance. (at this point I'm talking more to Jay
than to Andrew) The best thing that might happen is that Jay realize
that people are =people= first, and "couresy car providers" last. There
is nothing wrong with being a charter pilot "first" and a business owner
second. I wouldn't call it an afterthought at all. That's another
insult you are hurling out at a fellow pilot, who for all you know may
actually pay his charter pilots very well and only run the FBO so that
he can do so.

>>Did you buy any avgas?
> Not this time. However, airports are publically owned for a reason --
> their primary impact is that they bring lots of dollars into the local
> economy. Thus, the "business" this guy drove off was the $30 we spent
> at the local restaurant, the $15 we spent at the local gas station
> (filling HIS tank) plus any future business we could provide to his
> FBO.

So, taking the other side for a moment, why should a charter pilot care
about filling the tank? That courtsey car is attracting all this
business to the city, so the FBO should be thrilled about that. You too
shouldn't care whether pilots fill up your grape. But you do - enough
to spread ill will about charter pilots (whom you profess to love) and
think yourself superior.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> How is being cheap considered to be less worthy?

Ask Jay. He finds charter pilots to be less worthy (of admiration for
their behavior).

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Newps wrote:
>>
>>> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic
>>> and if the statement is true then it's true.
>>
>>
>> The point is that Jay hasn't seen every charter pilot out there. He's
>> seen a small sample, and possibly an unusually unrepresentative
>> sample, who nows? Making a sweeping generalization based on a small
>> sample isn't usually a good idea.
>
>
> I'll bet that he has more experience at running an airport courtesy car
> than you do, or most people on the group, for that matter.
>
> I would say that makes him uniquely qualified to comment.

Well, I'd say from the results of his comments, your assertion is wrong.

Matt

[Greg B]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> You know, Jay, you could do us all a favor and let us know what FBO
> this is. While I might buy gas from them if their price was in the
> ball park and they were on the way, I certainly wouldn't let them work
> on a plane I was flying.

There are 111 public airports* in Iowa. I guess we can assume that it isn't
the Iowa City airport. That leaves 109 good (public) airports and 1
'possibly' bad airport. That gives you less than a 1% chance of picking that
'bad' airport/FBO in Iowa. Those chances are good. Even if I did hit that
'bad' Iowa airport/FBO, chances are that my experience there may be
different than what Jay experienced. What happened to Jay there may not
happen to most other people.

-Greg B.

*http://www.iawings.com/airports/municipal_list.htm

[Morgans[_2_]]

Always ready with a snappy reply, you are.

Amazing.
--
Jim in NC

[Dave S]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Exactly what "business" did he drive off? Did you buy any avgas?
>
>
> Not this time. However, airports are publically owned for a reason --
> their primary impact is that they bring lots of dollars into the local
> economy. Thus, the "business" this guy drove off was the $30 we spent
> at the local restaurant, the $15 we spent at the local gas station
> (filling HIS tank) plus any future business we could provide to his
> FBO.
>
> To better illustrate this effect, an Iowa State University study (done
> in 2000) of Iowa airports shows that our Iowa City airport directly and
> INDIRECTLY brings $5.7 million dollars per year into the local economy.
> That's a nice chunk of change, and is made up of hundreds
> (thousands?) of little guys like me (and Mary) flying in.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>


Plus the trickle down effect of those of us who might have happened
across that field (when we learn the identity of it).. and all the
people we tell about it as well..

Whats the old adage.. if you like the way you were treated, you tell
your friends.. if you DISLIKE the way you were treated, you tell EVERYONE.

Dave

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jose" > wrote

> ... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap *******s"?

What's next, Jose? Going to recite a Hitler speech?
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Duniho]

"The Visitor" > wrote in message
...
>> He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing
>> "all" charter pilots.
>
> Do you not need more data points to dispute it?

No. To support a blanket generalization, one needs to survey the entire
population. To refute a blanket generalization, one need only survey a
single member of the population, so long as that member is a
counter-example.

[G. Sylvester]

That's it Jay. All Hotel owners throughout the ENTIRE world are cheap
*******s. I literally sampled everyone and everyone knows it as fact.



hehehehe. Just kidding. ;-) Hope to visit your hotel someday. I've
heard great things about it.

Gerald
PPL-ASEL-IA, Holiday Inn (yuk) Platinum and Marriott :) Gold, and VERY
avid C-152 sim pilot

[G. Sylvester]

Bob Fry wrote:
>>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:
>
> JH> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often
> JH> than that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only
> JH> time the tanks don't get filled at our place is when hotel
> JH> owners use our van -- those guys are the cheapest SOBs
> JH> around!"
>
> I changed two words in the "quote" above. How does it feel?
>
> Others have already said it better than I. I'll just add that it
> sounds like the guy is both a charter pilot and runs a business of
> charter pilots, and you accidently insulted his entire professional
> life. What to you was an overreaction to him might have been
> considerable restraint.

Actually I really wonder if this guy got offended because Jay's
observation was accurate about this guy. To me, it sounds like the
charter pilots who work for this guy have told this guy more than once
to go f**k himself and walked out on him leaving him and his paying
passengers/cargo (one and the same ;-) ) high and dry. After all if
this guy did not fit the alleged mold, then he should have told Jay,
"Well sorry to say your observation is not entirely correct. I take
great care of my pilots and that's why they work for me for so many years."

Gerald

[KevinBlack]

Well, all I can say to the owner of the FBO and many who have posted in
indignation at Jay's almighty gaff is 'get a life'. How a throw away
comment made in jest can generate so much stomach acid is beyond me. It's a
slippery slope down the mountain of political correctness.....

YMMV,
Kevin



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
> airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
> gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
> haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
> available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
> line guy.
>
> Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
> times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
> operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
> large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
> culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
> small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
> He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
>
> After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
> (always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
> accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
> waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
> humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
> pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
>
> As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
> off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
> a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
> our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
> Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
> forward to another great flight home.
>
> Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
> sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
> recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
> farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
> mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
>
> He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
> we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
> I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
> City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
> the generosity of our pilot guests.
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
>
> My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
> flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
> in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
> voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
> if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
> then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[mike regish]

Good points. And I do think the FBO owner's reaction was a bit much...but I
wasn't there either. We only have Jay's version. Being from Mass. and having
voted for John Kerry in '04, I could instantly tell that I don't agree with
his politics-and that's putting it mildly. But as others have noticed, Mr.
Honeck has several "opinions" that encompass large groups with what appears
to be no exceptions for individuals within those groups.

That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be a
bigot. And every now and then, he gets caught by it because he will
verbalize one of these sweeping generalizations to somebody who happens to
be one of those individuals.

mike

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> "mike regish" > wrote in
> :
>
>> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
>>> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
>>> others.
>>
>> Watched a show on the KKK the other day. Don't see how you can listen to
>> any of those guys' opinions without getting ****ed. But, hey...that's
>> just me.
>
> Yeah, but they take the "Jews are cheap *******s" to the next level by
> adding, "so we should burn crosses on their lawn and kill them all."
>
> And that's where their opinion goes from being mostly harmless, silly
> stereotype to offensive and perhaps even intolerable.
>
> But tolerance is not just about tolerating the differences that we all
> have. It's about tolerating the people who don't - at least long enough to
> have a chance to educate them. Sure, Jay's joke was insensitive and
> tasteless. But it wasn't all that harmful by itself.
>
> The reaction of the FBO Owner / Charter Pilot was immature and useless. He
> would have been much better to smile and say, "I bet you didn't know I am
> also a Charter Pilot." Then he might have changed Jay's opinion, even if
> just a bit.
>
> Tolerance goes both ways. If every time people get offended they
> immediately shut the door and stomp their feet, no one will ever change.

[Jay Honeck]

> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be a
> bigot. And every now and then, he gets caught by it because he will
> verbalize one of these sweeping generalizations to somebody who happens to
> be one of those individuals.
>
> mike

Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"? Soon, you'll be
calling me a "social climber"...

;-)

Just once it would be good of you to contribute something positive to
this group, Mike. Try it sometime -- it'll make you feel better.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> You know, Jay, you could do us all a favor and let us know what FBO
> this is. While I might buy gas from them if their price was in the
> ball park and they were on the way, I certainly wouldn't let them work
> on a plane I was flying.

No, that wouldn't be right. I wouldn't want anyone impugning my
business in a worldwide forum on the basis of single experience, and
I'm willing to write off the issue as a "bad day".

I post it here only because (a) I found the experience to be quite
amazing, and (b) it's always fun to watch the different (and utterly
predictable) reactions from certain members of this group.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing
>>>"all" charter pilots.
>>
>>Do you not need more data points to dispute it?
>
>
> No. To support a blanket generalization, one needs to survey the entire
> population. To refute a blanket generalization, one need only survey a
> single member of the population, so long as that member is a
> counter-example.

I wouldn't say the entire population, but I would want a sample size
that gives me at least a 95% confidence level! :-)


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

KevinBlack wrote:

> Well, all I can say to the owner of the FBO and many who have posted in
> indignation at Jay's almighty gaff is 'get a life'. How a throw away
> comment made in jest can generate so much stomach acid is beyond me. It's a
> slippery slope down the mountain of political correctness.....

Yes, especially when you can't even distinguish between common decency
and courtesy and political correctness. Sure, the guy seemed way to
thin-skinned, however, Jay had a couple of opportunities to undo things
after the guy's first comment that suggested he was becoming offended.
I wasn't there, so maybe Jay just didn't realize it soon enough,
however, as one who deals with the public as much as Jay, I have to
believe his skills of perception in this area should be good.

I think he could have unwound this pretty quickly, but instead, his ego
and then the beginnings of anger got in the way. That's fine, but then
don't anguish over it afterward. If you are one who is bothered by
things like this, and I'll admit I am as well, then you have to learn to
stop them as soon as the symptoms appear. It generally isn't that hard
to do. I think a "Hey, no offense, I was just making conversation."
would have stopped it. The guy would have made one more comment to get
in the last word and Jay could have then either ignored it or said,
"Hey, you may be right." and walked away. I'm guessing either would
have stopped the "don't come back" comment.

This isn't being PC, it is simply being perceptive.


Matt

[mike regish]

Yes dear.

mike

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be
>> a
>> bigot. And every now and then, he gets caught by it because he will
>> verbalize one of these sweeping generalizations to somebody who happens
>> to
>> be one of those individuals.
>>
>> mike
>
> Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"? Soon, you'll be
> calling me a "social climber"...
>
> ;-)
>
> Just once it would be good of you to contribute something positive to
> this group, Mike. Try it sometime -- it'll make you feel better.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Ron Lee]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>Personally, I thought his Kerry crack was pretty funny, and I actually
>held out hope that it meant his attitude was turning humorous.
>Unfortunately, his next sentence (inviting us not to come back) proved
>me wrong.
>--

Maybe you can extend the olive branch and invite him to your hotel for
a free nights stay.

Ron Lee

[mike regish]

Ah...see? Now you've enlightened me again. I though you just thought charter
pilots were cheap *******s.

mike

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be
>> a
>> bigot. And every now and then, he gets caught by it because he will
>> verbalize one of these sweeping generalizations to somebody who happens
>> to
>> be one of those individuals.
>>
>> mike
>
> Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"? Soon, you'll be
> calling me a "social climber"...
>
> ;-)
>
> Just once it would be good of you to contribute something positive to
> this group, Mike. Try it sometime -- it'll make you feel better.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Ron Lee]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be a
>> bigot. And every now and then, he gets caught by it because he will
>> verbalize one of these sweeping generalizations to somebody who happens to
>> be one of those individuals.
>>
>> mike
>
>Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"? Soon, you'll be
>calling me a "social climber"...

Don't let his comments bother you Jay. His "bigotry" comment is
typical of liberals who are the worst at fomenting racism and poverty
in the USA. Now before you liberals get your panties in a wad, that
is fact, not a generalization.

Ron Lee

[mike regish]

ROTFLMAO

Yep. I'm one of those damn liberals. I prefer "progressive", but liberal
will do.

mike

"Ron Lee" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>>> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be
>>> a
>>> bigot. And every now and then, he gets caught by it because he will
>>> verbalize one of these sweeping generalizations to somebody who happens
>>> to
>>> be one of those individuals.
>>>
>>> mike
>>
>>Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"? Soon, you'll be
>>calling me a "social climber"...
>
> Don't let his comments bother you Jay. His "bigotry" comment is
> typical of liberals who are the worst at fomenting racism and poverty
> in the USA. Now before you liberals get your panties in a wad, that
> is fact, not a generalization.
>
> Ron Lee

[Ross Richardson[_2_]]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing
>>>"all" charter pilots.
>>
>>Do you not need more data points to dispute it?
>
>
> No. To support a blanket generalization, one needs to survey the entire
> population. To refute a blanket generalization, one need only survey a
> single member of the population, so long as that member is a
> counter-example.
>
>

Darn, I hate to jump in here. Most amazing thread on people that are
supposed to have a common interest. But, "entire population?". Is that
what the Nelsen folks do in their surveys? I suspect not. They take
statistically relevant samples.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Steve Foley]

Every privately owned hotel I have stayed in has been worse than any chain.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> > You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."
>>
>> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs
>> chains?
>
> Sure!
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[The Visitor]

Well he didn't say charter pilots never fill the tank, only when the
tank isn't filled, it is charter pilots.

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing
>>>"all" charter pilots.
>>
>>Do you not need more data points to dispute it?
>
>
> No. To support a blanket generalization, one needs to survey the entire
> population. To refute a blanket generalization, one need only survey a
> single member of the population, so long as that member is a
> counter-example.
>
>

[The Visitor]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:


> If someone says "all pilots are spolied rich men

Some are. They have been successful in business by pushing and getting
more than the other guy and getting their way. Now they can afford flying.



shouting to everyone at the lobby that all corporate
> pilots

It was charter pilots, somewhat different. And he never said >all<

"Yeah, the only time the tanks
don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van"

So clearly there could be times charter pilots do fill the van.


John

[The Visitor]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing "all"
> charter pilots.

But he didn't!!!

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"?

Remember that to some people "bigot" means anyone who
doesn't like that you don't buy into their agenda.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-11-10, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> It's not every day that I have to refer to my dictionary to decipher a
> post on Usenet, but you sent me to my Oxford for that one. "Pillock"
> is not a word I had ever heard, before, but I like the ring of it.

Damn, I won't be able to call you a pillock now :-)

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Judah]

(Ron Lee) wrote in
:

> Don't let his comments bother you Jay. His "bigotry" comment is
> typical of liberals who are the worst at fomenting racism and poverty
> in the USA. Now before you liberals get your panties in a wad, that
> is fact, not a generalization.

Sure it is. But some liberals are not fanatics, just as some conservatives
are not fanatics.

But I think there is a little bit of hypocrisy on both sides...

[Jose[_1_]]

>> ... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap *******s"?
> What's next, Jose? Going to recite a Hitler speech?

You invoked the law, not I.

My point is only that goring somebody's ox is rude, and it doesn't
matter what the ox is.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> [...] (b) it's always fun to watch the different (and utterly predictable)
> reactions from certain members of this group.

Yikes, you mean you were trolling?!

- FChE

[Newps]

Matt Whiting wrote:

>>
>>
>> I'll bet that he has more experience at running an airport courtesy
>> car than you do, or most people on the group, for that matter.
>>
>> I would say that makes him uniquely qualified to comment.
>
>
> Well, I'd say from the results of his comments, your assertion is wrong.
>

The results of his comments are irrelavant. That's like saying 2+2=4,
unless someone disagrees.

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Ron Lee wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>
> Don't let his comments bother you Jay. His "bigotry" comment is
> typical of liberals who are the worst at fomenting racism and poverty
> in the USA. Now before you liberals get your panties in a wad, that
> is fact, not a generalization.
>
> Ron Lee

If bigotry is typical of liberals, then that challenges the very
definition of the word liberal. So, who are the real liberals? You?

[Newps]

Matt Whiting wrote:


>
>
> I wouldn't say the entire population, but I would want a sample size
> that gives me at least a 95% confidence level! :-)



Which would be less than a thousand people, randomly selected.

[Newps]

Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
>
>>[...] (b) it's always fun to watch the different (and utterly predictable)
>>reactions from certain members of this group.
>
>
> Yikes, you mean you were trolling?!



Like taking candy from a baby.

[Peter Duniho]

"The Visitor" > wrote in message
...
> Well he didn't say charter pilots never fill the tank, only when the tank
> isn't filled, it is charter pilots.

You can equivocate about the meaning of his comment if you like. However,
to me it was pretty clear: charter pilots never fill the tank, and all
charter pilots are poorly paid.

He has no basis for making either claim.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> [...] (b) it's always fun to watch the different (and utterly
> predictable) reactions from certain members of this group.

We're no more predictable than you are, Jay.

The difference is most of us don't post with the intent to draw out
predictable answers. That's called trolling.

I guess now I understand why you are so tolerant of Mxsmanic's behavior. He
and you share a common personality defect.

[The Visitor]

You are putting words in his mouth, to support your argument; because it
suits you.

[Newps]

The Visitor wrote:

> You are putting words in his mouth, to support your argument; because it
> suits you.
>

You're catching on here.

[Ron Lee]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:

>
>Ron Lee wrote:
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>>
>>
>> Don't let his comments bother you Jay. His "bigotry" comment is
>> typical of liberals who are the worst at fomenting racism and poverty
>> in the USA. Now before you liberals get your panties in a wad, that
>> is fact, not a generalization.
>>
>> Ron Lee
>
>If bigotry is typical of liberals, then that challenges the very
>definition of the word liberal. So, who are the real liberals? You?
>
No, it just means that many liberals are hypocrites in addition to
doing things (programs like welfare) that ruin lives and result in the
deaths of innocent Americans.

But liberals can't see what their failures have done.

Ron Lee

[Peter Duniho]

"The Visitor" > wrote in message
...
> You are putting words in his mouth, to support your argument; because it
> suits you.

Baloney. My interpretation of his statement is not only perfectly valid, it
is strongly supported by Jay's own description of how he communicated to the
other person.

The only interpretation that could change the underlying correctness of his
statements would be to think that Jay was speaking ONLY of the charter
pilots he had personally met, and not only talked to but also obtained
salary information from. There's absolutely no indication that was his
meaning...even Jay himself has not suggested his intent was to restrict his
statement to that group of people.

[Jay Honeck]

> > [...] (b) it's always fun to watch the different (and utterly predictable)
> > reactions from certain members of this group.
>
> Yikes, you mean you were trolling?!

Is it trolling when the reaction is always the same? If a tree falls
in the woods, and there's no one there to hear it...well, you know the
rest.

Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,
set up to respond
with three specific responses that are triggered by any given stimuli.
Google could easily set something like this up in order to keep the
newsgroups rolling along...

The fact that none of them are pictured in the Rec.Aviation "Rogues
Gallery" (see http://www.alexisparkinn.com/rec_aviation.htm ) tends to
support this theory. Has anyone here ever actually MET any of these
guys?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Steve Foley wrote:
> Every privately owned hotel I have stayed in has been worse than any chain.

I've actually not found the privately owned hotels to be uniformly worse
than the chains, but I have found them to be much more variable. Chains
hotels are like chain restaurants. They are seldom great, but you
almost always know what you are getting. Private hotels run the gamut
from flea bag dumps to really nice places. The trouble is you often
don't know what you are getting until you get there. This isn't a big
deal if you can get a room elsewhere, but occasionally you have no
choice by the time you find out that you've reserved at a dump.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Newps wrote:

>
>
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't say the entire population, but I would want a sample size
>> that gives me at least a 95% confidence level! :-)
>
>
>
>
> Which would be less than a thousand people, randomly selected.

So, Jay, have you dealt with a thousand charter pilots ... randomly
selected? :-)


Matt

[A. Sinan Unur]

Jose > wrote in news:r2U4h.2002$6t.1206
@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com:

>> How is being cheap considered to be less worthy?
>
> Ask Jay. He finds charter pilots to be less worthy (of admiration for
> their behavior).
>

The behavior Jay is describing is not being cheap: It is the failure to
reciprocate in response to a favor someone is doing for them.
Reciprocation for favors received is generally considered good form across
cultures and throughout time even when there is no formal requirement to
do so.

The fact is, Jay did something nice by filling up the car without being
asked or required. That act sets the stage: Whatever he says/does after
that has to be viewed based on that precedent. If he then inadvertently
makes a statement that others find objectionable, the proper response
would be to politely point that out.

If Jay had walked in to the FBO and said "I ain't filling up the tank
because I hate cheap charter pilots", that would have been a different
scenario.

Sinan
--
A. Sinan Unur >
(remove .invalid and reverse each component for email address)

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:


>
> Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,
> set up to respond
> with three specific responses that are triggered by any given stimuli.

They are as predictable as switching on a light. Every post is the same
and comes at exactly the same moment in any conversation.

[mike regish]

Well, let's see here.

In the past month or 2 you've declared your bigotry towards government
employees, unions, union employees, charter pilots and charter owners. I may
have left a few out, but that's CRS for ya.

I'd be willing to bet I can throw in homosexuals and gay married couples.

mike

BTW, I feel just fine, thanks.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be
>> a
>> bigot. And every now and then, he gets caught by it because he will
>> verbalize one of these sweeping generalizations to somebody who happens
>> to
>> be one of those individuals.
>>
>> mike
>
> Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"? Soon, you'll be
> calling me a "social climber"...
>
> ;-)
>
> Just once it would be good of you to contribute something positive to
> this group, Mike. Try it sometime -- it'll make you feel better.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Damn, I won't be able to call you a pillock now :-)

Heh heh. Don't worry, there plenty of other epithets you can sling at
me...

Once I told my 16 year old son this new word, that's all I've been
hearing. I suspect by now it has swept through his high school like a
wave, and will soon be chanted at the next home football game...

Pil-LOCK! Pil-LOCK! Pil-LOCK!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > Which would be less than a thousand people, randomly selected.
>
> So, Jay, have you dealt with a thousand charter pilots ... randomly
> selected? :-)

Nope, I've only dealt with the smart ones who have persuade their
bosses to let them stay with us...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>>Which would be less than a thousand people, randomly selected.
>>
>>So, Jay, have you dealt with a thousand charter pilots ... randomly
>>selected? :-)
>
>
> Nope, I've only dealt with the smart ones who have persuade their
> bosses to let them stay with us...
>
> :-)

Chuckle. Apparently, none of them are from the FBO where you visited
recently. :-)


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Newps wrote:

>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,
>> set up to respond
>> with three specific responses that are triggered by any given stimuli.
>
>
> They are as predictable as switching on a light. Every post is the same
> and comes at exactly the same moment in any conversation.

That is true of just about everyone here, you and me included.

Matt

[Judah]

(Ron Lee) wrote in news:4554e3a0.648968
@news.pcisys.net:

> No, it just means that many liberals are hypocrites in addition to
> doing things (programs like welfare) that ruin lives and result in the
> deaths of innocent Americans.
>
> But liberals can't see what their failures have done.

Have you sampled a thousand random liberals to come to this conclusion?

[Jay Honeck]

> In the past month or 2 you've declared your bigotry towards government
> employees, unions, union employees, charter pilots and charter owners. I may
> have left a few out, but that's CRS for ya.
>
> I'd be willing to bet I can throw in homosexuals and gay married couples.

Well, let's see. All me to address your absurd accusations one at a
time.

1. As taxpayers, (and the purported boss of all government employees)
it is every citizen's right -- no, it is their DUTY -- to point out
inefficiencies and bad work habits in the government. If you don't
believe that, America has truly lost its representative government.

2. Union employees, by their very nature, have mixed allegiances, since
they have two competing bosses. In my experience, this is a very bad
situation, and leads to untold inequities and inefficiencies.

Unions once served a purpose, but overstayed their welcome -- which is
why membership continues to dwindle. Their greed and short-sightedness
brought about the death of entire industries, and the loss of thousands
(millions?) of good-paying jobs in America. The fact that you refuse
to understand this is understandable, since you have benefited from
union representation -- but in truth you should be thankful that your
unemployed brethren are too ignorant to understand why they're now
standing in food stamp lines, or they'd be marching in front of your
house with burning torches.

3. We love charter pilots, and therefore let them use our car for free
when they stay with us. They're cheap SOBs because they have no money,
because they are chasing a dream -- which we truly respect. (Which is
why we continue to let them use our car, for free.).

What have *you* done for them, personally?

4. What's a "gay married couple"?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[mike regish]

Oh yeah. The big one...non-business owners...except air charter owners,
apparently.

mike

"mike regish" > wrote in message
. ..
> Well, let's see here.
>
> In the past month or 2 you've declared your bigotry towards government
> employees, unions, union employees, charter pilots and charter owners. I
> may have left a few out, but that's CRS for ya.
>
> I'd be willing to bet I can throw in homosexuals and gay married couples.
>
> mike
>
> BTW, I feel just fine, thanks.
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be
>>> a
>>> bigot. And every now and then, he gets caught by it because he will
>>> verbalize one of these sweeping generalizations to somebody who happens
>>> to
>>> be one of those individuals.
>>>
>>> mike
>>
>> Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"? Soon, you'll be
>> calling me a "social climber"...
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> Just once it would be good of you to contribute something positive to
>> this group, Mike. Try it sometime -- it'll make you feel better.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>
>

[mike regish]

I bet if one showed up at your hotel/motel or whatever it is, and announced
themselves as such, you'd kick them out.

Whatayasay, J? Would ya?

mike

"Jay Honeck" >

wrote in message >

> 4. What's a "gay married couple"?
> --
> Jay Honeck

[Jay Honeck]

> I bet if one showed up at your hotel/motel or whatever it is, and announced
> themselves as such, you'd kick them out.

Ha -- right. Iowa City is the lesbian capitol of the world, with more
gay couples per capita than San Francisco. It's a very liberal, open
town -- which precisely fits my tastes. (I'm a fiscal conservative --
not a social one. IMO, the religious right is one of the worst things
that has ever happened to this country.)

As such, we do plenty of business with gay couples, quite happily. But
that's beside the point -- I've still never met a "married gay couple."

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> The only interpretation that could change the underlying correctness of his
> statements would be to think that Jay was speaking ONLY of the charter
> pilots he had personally met, and not only talked to but also obtained
> salary information from. There's absolutely no indication that was his
> meaning...even Jay himself has not suggested his intent was to restrict his
> statement to that group of people.

Sometimes, Pete, you just can't see the forest cuz the trees are in the
way.

Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) knows that charter pilots are paid
poorly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why -- there
are ten pilots for every available charter job, and most charter owners
know that they can pay peanuts without fear of reprisal or any
diminuition of flight team quality.

It also doesn't take a genious to prove the validity of this statement.
All you've got to do is ASK THEM, and they'll tell you. I've never
yet met a charter pilot who said "Man, I am just rolling in dough!" --
and I've spoken with a lot of them.

Which isn't to say that they all hate their lives -- often the young,
single guys have a great time with it, and revel in telling "There I
was..." stories. Nevertheless, flying charter is a thankless, hard
life, with the ultimate reward being that all-important multi- and
turbine-engine flight time. This very expensive flight time is their
REAL pay -- but that doesn't put gas in the courtesy car tank, now does
it?

Since this type of flight time is necessary in order for any pilot to
make the next leap up the ladder (to the regional airlines), many young
men and women willingly submit themselves to a lifestyle that makes
many of us cringe in sympathy.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[AES]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>
> 4. What's a "gay married couple"?
>

Well, I'll take that one on, Jay, by asking in return -- and in
seriousness -- what's a "married couple"?

If the answer is, it's an essentially *legal* status, based on state or
Federal laws regulating marriage, then I'll want to know why it
shouldn't be available to gay as well as heterosexual couples. I'll be
glad to listen to arguments on all sides of that issue; but I'll only be
interested in or willing to hear arguments based on "civic" or "civil"
(as in civilian) factors -- married couples should get these tax breaks
or otherwise for the following "civic" reasons -- but *no religious
based arguments whatsoever*, because in a democracy I'm not willing to
have the laws that govern me be determined by anyone else's religious
beliefs.

If on the other hand it's an essentially *religion-based* status,
determined by whether or not some religion has in the eyes of God"
married this couple, well, then fine, no problem at all -- except that
that makes marriage an essentially private, personal religious matter,
which should have absolutely no legal standing or recognition *anywhere
in law, or in legal or civic matters* (any more than someone should get
a lowered bus fare or a tax deduction because they took Communion last
Sunday).

[Or, on the other hand, if you want to argue that married couples should
get these special legal rights because some church married them -- well,
you'd better be prepared for churches that are quite willing to marry
gay couples.]

[Jay Honeck]

> I've actually not found the privately owned hotels to be uniformly worse
> than the chains, but I have found them to be much more variable. Chains
> hotels are like chain restaurants. They are seldom great, but you
> almost always know what you are getting.

Absolutely true. You can ALWAYS eat at Burger King, and know (with a
certain degree of assuredness) that your burger will be well done.

However, if you want a GREAT burger, you've simply got to visit the mom
& pop restaurants. There is no substitute.

> Private hotels run the gamut
> from flea bag dumps to really nice places.

Actually, our experience is a bit different, and it's a small but
important distinction. Private MOTELS are often bad, because they are
often formerly chain motels that have had their brand stripped from
them, for various reasons. (Usually the owner didn't keep updating the
facility, and couldn't keep up with whatever minimum requirements the
chain put forth.)

Private HOTELS, on the other hand, are often what are called "boutique
hotels" -- small, privately owned facilities that were NEVER a chain,
and never will be. Many times these are really over-grown bed &
breakfasts, like ours. Seek them out, and you won't be disappointed.

> The trouble is you often
> don't know what you are getting until you get there. This isn't a big
> deal if you can get a room elsewhere, but occasionally you have no
> choice by the time you find out that you've reserved at a dump.

This is where the internet has been the absolute savior of travelers!
Do not stay at ANY hotel that doesn't have their own website. (And I
don't mean the "blanket" "Sheraton" website that talks about the chain.
Those are totally useless...) The flea bags almost certainly don't
have their own website -- which makes them easy to avoid.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[gatt]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...

>> He reacted negatively, you tried to make the best of it, he called you a
>> name (literally...the "Kerry" thing.)

> Yes, that Kerry comment really was nasty! :-)

Heh. I think if I called my chief flight instructor "John Kerry" he -might-
open the door before he hucked my ass out of the plane.

-c

[gatt]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...

> He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing
> "all" charter pilots. Even the comment about whether they fill up the
> tank in >the car isn't supported, and I doubt he's got salary information
> for enough charter pilots to even use up the fingers on one hand.

So freaking what? Is he running for governor or something? Last I checked,
he spent money doing a favor for the guy by filling up the tank. If the guy
couldn't handle a comment by way of explanation, too bad. If Jay -really-
wanted to hurt the guy he'd simply tell us the name of the FBO and tell
everybody how bad the service was there (without explaining the argument.)
AND, he could have not filled the gas.

There's no need for salary information to make a casual comment based on his
own observation.

> Of course, avoiding a sweeping generalization in such a manner as that is
> probably something that would never occur to Jay, just as it still has not
> occurred to him that he contributed to the situation somehow.

Again, so freaking what? I guess we better not make any lawyer jokes, used
car salesmen references, trash-talk politicians, or state our opinions of
media types because somebody who works with them might be offended.

I'm a system administrator. I deal with people all day long who have been
given the shaft by other system administrators or network types. When a
customer refers to some OTHER administrator as a net-geek, propellerhead,
etc, I damned well better not throw a fit, call the guy names and kick him
off the network (that's reserved for the spammers and frauds, which I get to
kick with total impugnity.)

-c

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Is it trolling when the reaction is always the same?

It is trolling when you post *because* you know the reaction is always the
same. Which is exactly what you said you did.

> [...]
> Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,
> set up to respond
> with three specific responses that are triggered by any given stimuli.

The precise same thing could be said about you. So what? I'd say most of
the people who post here have fairly predictable responses.

Pete

[flyncatfish]

AES wrote:
> In article . com>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> >
> > 4. What's a "gay married couple"?
> >
>
> Well, I'll take that one on, Jay, by asking in return -- and in
> seriousness -- what's a "married couple"?
>
> If the answer is, it's an essentially *legal* status, based on state or
> Federal laws regulating marriage, then I'll want to know why it
> shouldn't be available to gay as well as heterosexual couples. I'll be
> glad to listen to arguments on all sides of that issue; but I'll only be
> interested in or willing to hear arguments based on "civic" or "civil"
> (as in civilian) factors -- married couples should get these tax breaks
> or otherwise for the following "civic" reasons -- but *no religious
> based arguments whatsoever*, because in a democracy I'm not willing to
> have the laws that govern me be determined by anyone else's religious
> beliefs.
>
> If on the other hand it's an essentially *religion-based* status,
> determined by whether or not some religion has in the eyes of God"
> married this couple, well, then fine, no problem at all -- except that
> that makes marriage an essentially private, personal religious matter,
> which should have absolutely no legal standing or recognition *anywhere
> in law, or in legal or civic matters* (any more than someone should get
> a lowered bus fare or a tax deduction because they took Communion last
> Sunday).
>
> [Or, on the other hand, if you want to argue that married couples should
> get these special legal rights because some church married them -- well,
> you'd better be prepared for churches that are quite willing to marry
> gay couples.]

It's amazing how political parties throw-up these wedge issues like gay
marriage or [Insert favorite stupid wedge issue here] that few in
mainstream America give a flip about. I could care less one way or
another about gay marriage. I'm not for or against, I just don't give
a sh#$. I think both the social conservative bible thumpers and the
liberal - head up there ass- progressives (fancy name for a socialist)
have managed to hijack the leadership of both the major political
parties in America. They are so way out of touch. Part of the problem
is Bush, Kerry, [Insert Candidate] all were born (or married to
someone) with silver spoons so far in the back of their mouths it
would take a crowbar to remove them. Why do we put up with these
people? The problem is they come from well off politically connected
families and go to select colleges where they get to know each other
and self select themselves for public office before they ever get out
of school. Most never have had a real job They don't represent
mainstream Americans at all. If there ever was a need for a new
moderate party/candidate to represent the middle class, or what's left
of it, it's now.

FlynCatfish

[gatt]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...

>> Well he didn't say charter pilots never fill the tank, only when the tank
>> isn't filled, it is charter pilots.
>
> You can equivocate about the meaning of his comment if you like. However,
> to me it was pretty clear: charter pilots never fill the tank, and all
> charter pilots are poorly paid.
>
> He has no basis for making either claim.

You never trash-talk journalists, then, do you?

-c

[gatt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...


> Welcome to the "United States of the Offended."

What? We're France now?

*dives for the bunker*

-c

[gatt]

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> Send the FBO a card with a message saying that sometimes things dont work
> out the way they were intended and sorry to offend and no offense
> taken. If the guy wont be ok with that, then there isnt anything else you
> can do.

Who are you, Jesus? That's WAY too civilized.

-c
(and a fine idea, nonetheless.)

[gatt]

"Gene Seibel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
>> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
>> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
>> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
>> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> Exactly what "business" did he drive off? Did you buy any avgas?

Well, now, Jay could be out here telling everybody what a great FBO it is.

For example, I recommend Gorge Winds Aviation in Troutdale, Oregon.
Excellent people, excellent rates, excellent service. If you're looking for
a rating, rental or training, I recommend Marv, Steve or Delcy.
Hopefully, their professional courtesy will be rewarded by my recommendation
to readers.

Jay's not extending that recommendation here, is he?

Also, Jay filled the tank. He didn't have to. Maybe in the future he
won't, especially if for some reason he has to return and the guy doesn't
remember him.

-c

[gatt]

"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...

> You were sarcastic, crass, and just like flying IFR, don't have a clue
> about "charter pilots."


Meanwhile I have a lot more respect for Jay now than you. How did that come
about?

I suppose you get all frothy if somebody trash-talks AOL users too?

-c

[gatt]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Newps wrote:
>
>> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic and
>> if the statement is true then it's true.
>
> The point is that Jay hasn't seen every charter pilot out there. He's
> seen a small sample, and possibly an unusually unrepresentative sample,
> who nows? Making a sweeping generalization based on a small sample isn't
> usually a good idea.

What's your opinion of the average Senator or state representative? HOW
DARE YOU STATE YOUR OPINION if you haven't met them all?

How many lawyers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

HOW DARE I?!

-c

[gatt]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...

>> I would say that makes him uniquely qualified to comment.
>
> Well, I'd say from the results of his comments, your assertion is wrong.

Why? The "result?"

He got what he wanted. If I'm ever gonna go to that area, I might ask Jay
"Hey, who's that hotheaded jackass with the FBO that I should avoid?"

The result of his comment is that we're seeing what kinds of thin-skinned
assumptive primadonna PC speech police might crawl out of the woodwork the
next time somebody says something that might offend their precious
sensibilities.

Way to go, Jay. I hope to visit your establishment someday and if I'm in
the region this winter, I will! (I promise to put gas in the courtesy car.
;> )

-c

[gatt]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> How is being cheap considered to be less worthy?
>
> Ask Jay. He finds charter pilots to be less worthy (of admiration for
> their behavior).


Gee, especially when he lends them a vehicle and pays for their gas.

Why wouldn't he admire THAT?!

Yeesh.
-c

[gatt]

"Al G" > wrote in message
...
>I got thrown out of a landfill once. Yep, 86'd from a dump for life, after
>questioning the managements "practices/Policy". I was always sort of proud
>of it.


I got thrown out of one of only three restaurants in a small town once for
making a comment. (He cancelled a scheduled musical performance we'd driven
down for that his buddy's cover band could play.)

The thing is, I called him a name and he threw a fit right in the middle of
the room and threw me out. And when my wife and I left, about ten people
left behind us.

The customer, as they say, is always right.

-c

[Ron Lee]

Judah > wrote:

(Ron Lee) wrote in news:4554e3a0.648968
:
>
>> No, it just means that many liberals are hypocrites in addition to
>> doing things (programs like welfare) that ruin lives and result in the
>> deaths of innocent Americans.
>>
>> But liberals can't see what their failures have done.
>
>Have you sampled a thousand random liberals to come to this conclusion?

Nope. I judge them by what they have done and continue to do.

Ron Lee

[gatt]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>Am I missing something here?
>
> Mr. Honeck only purchases mogas.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?!

HOW JOHN KERRYESQUE OF YOU. GET OUT, YOU ASSUMER.

*throws a fit*

-c

[gatt]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
. ..

> He didn't know that particular person...obviously.

Yes, but, the difference between Jay and the particular person is, Jay
didn't lose a customer. That particular person did. If he was the business
owner, he got away with it. Any other employee in that situation elsewhere
would probably have been pitched out the door by the owner before Jay got to
it.

I deal with abusive customers all the time...if I kicked somebody off the
network every time they said something that offended me, I'd be working
elsewhere right now.

-c

[Judah]

(Ron Lee) wrote in news:45551f12.7993328
@news.pcisys.net:

> Judah > wrote:
>
(Ron Lee) wrote in news:4554e3a0.648968
:
>>
>>> No, it just means that many liberals are hypocrites in addition to
>>> doing things (programs like welfare) that ruin lives and result in the
>>> deaths of innocent Americans.
>>>
>>> But liberals can't see what their failures have done.
>>
>>Have you sampled a thousand random liberals to come to this conclusion?
>
> Nope. I judge them by what they have done and continue to do.

You mean you have met ALL liberals?

Wow, I don't remember meeting you.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> This is where the internet has been the absolute savior of travelers!
> Do not stay at ANY hotel that doesn't have their own website. (And I
> don't mean the "blanket" "Sheraton" website that talks about the chain.
> Those are totally useless...) The flea bags almost certainly don't
> have their own website -- which makes them easy to avoid.

Just curious, but why do you feel having a web site is likely to linked to being
a better independent hotel?
--
Jim in NC

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"A. Sinan Unur" > wrote in message
...
>>
> If Jay had walked in to the FBO and said "I ain't filling up the tank
> because I hate cheap charter pilots", that would have been a different
> scenario.


Jay filled the courtesy car because he's too cheap to fill his airplane.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,
> set up to respond
> with three specific responses that are triggered by any given stimuli.
> Google could easily set something like this up in order to keep the
> newsgroups rolling along...

And the predictable results keep Dudley eating cake, and Cecil getting steak
dinners.

Wait a minute... I think I might have gotten confused, somewhere along the line.
<g>
--
Jim in NC

[Jose[_1_]]

> Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,

I am =not= a usenet AI program. I am a real per
I am =not= a usen
Real person
usenet AI =not=
- ... usennnnnnnnnnnet
complexPerson; imaginaryPart==0; {
-I- ammmmo 0x42F7 0x3822 0xFFA3
342-0-262-02--0

Nifty Doorways Protection Error. Please restart reality.

subroutine 074.111.115.130
--
"Never trust anything that thinks it thinks for itself; you'll never
find its brain."
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[john smith]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> It may come to pass that somebody will get Jay's goat at the hotel, and
> Jay will throw that SOB out on his derrier, fully believing he's in the
> right. I wonder what =that= story will look like.

That's and interesting statement. Having been involved in and listened
to some of the converations over a beverage at Oshkosh in which Jay was
involved, it would have to be a pretty serious offense to ruffle Jay's
feathers.

[mike regish]

One of my daughter's best friends has 3 dads-2 of whom are married. And I
went to the wedding of one of my wife's coworkers and friends who married
her girlfriend.

You will.

mike

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> As such, we do plenty of business with gay couples, quite happily. But
> that's beside the point -- I've still never met a "married gay couple."
>
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[mike regish]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Also, Jay filled the tank. He didn't have to.

As the Fbo owner told him. Maybe his way of paying it forward for the times
he couldn't. And then J just walked up and slapped him in the face...twice.

J likes to stick his foot in his mouth and, rather than pull it out, he
seems to prefer jamming it in to the knee.

Someday he'll have to deal with some guy just like him, and hopefully he'll
remember some of the things he's said and realize just what is really so
****ed up about himself.

mike

[mike regish]

And I might look him up to say hi.even though he sounds like a republican.

mike

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> He got what he wanted. If I'm ever gonna go to that area, I might ask
> Jay "Hey, who's that hotheaded jackass with the FBO that I should avoid?"

[Jose[_1_]]

> And the predictable results keep Dudley eating cake, and Cecil getting steak dinners.

Yanno, maybe Dudley should buy =us= a steak dinner whenever we post
something he didn't predict. :)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[mike regish]

I'd say he's lost potentially many. I know I wouldn't waste my money there.

mike

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yes, but, the difference between Jay and the particular person is, Jay
> didn't lose a customer.

[mike regish]

I bet I could do it without even getting impolite.

mike

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Jose > wrote:
>
>> It may come to pass that somebody will get Jay's goat at the hotel, and
>> Jay will throw that SOB out on his derrier, fully believing he's in the
>> right. I wonder what =that= story will look like.
>
> That's and interesting statement. Having been involved in and listened
> to some of the converations over a beverage at Oshkosh in which Jay was
> involved, it would have to be a pretty serious offense to ruffle Jay's
> feathers.

[Martin Hotze]

On 10 Nov 2006 12:46:16 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote:

>Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,
>set up to respond
>with three specific responses that are triggered by any given stimuli.
>Google could easily set something like this up in order to keep the
>newsgroups rolling along...

no Sir, I never insult others. N-E-V-E-R.
Jay, you are the prototype of saying the wrong words in the wrong place.

I was told to not talk about religion or politics when in the US (as a
foreigner). It is not a good habit; only do so if you are close friends or
so. So I stick to talking about weather and f*ck^w ... ah well, this is
also inproproriate. So I stick to talking about weather .. *g*
I'd never talk about politics or religion because it seems to insult more
than it draws interest in a good discussion.
And when staying at a unknown FBO I'd stick to talking about the weather or
something that wouldn't come even close to insult anybody.

So maybe it wouldn't be the worst idea to just shut up now and then.

just my 2 cent.

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"mike regish" > wrote:

> One of my daughter's best friends has 3 dads-2 of whom are married. And I
> went to the wedding of one of my wife's coworkers and friends who married
> her girlfriend.

You live in Taxachusetts?

Ya think one of these days the citizens can actually vote on the issue, or
are they waiting for the rest of the non-ultraliberals to leave the state?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[mike regish]

Just what makes you think this is even an issue the people should vote on?
Since when do people get to vote on basic rights? Do you think slavery would
have been abolished if the people got to vote on it?

Maybe we should get to vote on kicking the right wing, ultra conservative,
neo-con, war-mongering, fear-inducing, bible beating regressives out of the
country. I know how I'd vote.

mike

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "mike regish" > wrote:
>
>> One of my daughter's best friends has 3 dads-2 of whom are married. And I
>> went to the wedding of one of my wife's coworkers and friends who married
>> her girlfriend.
>
> You live in Taxachusetts?
>
> Ya think one of these days the citizens can actually vote on the issue, or
> are they waiting for the rest of the non-ultraliberals to leave the state?
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> Looking for a sig the
> lawyers will hate
>

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "mike regish" > wrote:
>
>> One of my daughter's best friends has 3 dads-2 of whom are married. And I
>> went to the wedding of one of my wife's coworkers and friends who married
>> her girlfriend.
>
> You live in Taxachusetts?
>
> Ya think one of these days the citizens can actually vote on the issue,

That would be inappropriate, for the same reason that it would be wrong to
launch a referendum on whether interracial couples should be prohibited from
marrying, or whether Jews should be required to wear yellow stars.

Democracy is not the same as absolute tyranny of the majority. In a
democracy, equality before the law enjoys constitutional protections that
cannot be overridden by a majority vote.

(In addition to being inappropriate, a referendum on the issue would not
change the law: a solid majority of Massachusetts citizens and legislators
support same-sex marriage rights.)

--Gary

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"mike regish" > wrote:

> Just what makes you think this is even an issue the people should vote on?
> Since when do people get to vote on basic rights? Do you think slavery would
> have been abolished if the people got to vote on it?
>
> Maybe we should get to vote on kicking the right wing, ultra conservative,
> neo-con, war-mongering, fear-inducing, bible beating regressives out of the
> country. I know how I'd vote.

what? you aren't one of those love-everyone liberals?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> >> One of my daughter's best friends has 3 dads-2 of whom are married. And I
> >> went to the wedding of one of my wife's coworkers and friends who married
> >> her girlfriend.
> >
> > You live in Taxachusetts?
> >
> > Ya think one of these days the citizens can actually vote on the issue,
>
> That would be inappropriate

You and Mike assume facts not in evidence, i.e., that sexual perversion is
a basic right.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"mike regish" > wrote:

> Just what makes you think this is even an issue the people should vote on?
> Since when do people get to vote on basic rights?

No one voted on the Constitution or that Bill of Rights?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay filled the courtesy car because he's too cheap to fill his airplane.

Which brings up an interesting point. Would the average FBO rather
have his courtesy car's tank filled, or would he rather pump 8 gallons
of Avgas into a plane that doesn't need gas?

I had 76 gallons on board when I landed, Karl. Making the line guy
bring the truck over didn't make much sense.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> You and Mike assume facts not in evidence, i.e., that sexual perversion is
> a basic right.

Some call interracial marriage a perversion; others call intragender
marriage a perversion. In either case, it's just bigoted name-calling,
unsupported by any rational argument. (A couple's ability or intention to
reproduce together has never been a prerequisite for marriage, nor should it
be.)

You're an American version of the Taliban. If you had your way, our legal
system would just be a codification of ancient superstitious prejudices.

[Jay Honeck]

> Just curious, but why do you feel having a web site is likely to linked to being
> a better independent hotel?

Motels without a personal website (meaning not the blanket "chain" site
that covers the entire brand) have nothing to brag about, and are
usually run by "managers" -- not "owners". This is an important,
often critical difference in the service you will receive.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I bet I could do it without even getting impolite.

I believe you are correct.

Actually, I've escorted a few unruly guests off the property -- and my
night manager has done more than his share. That goes along with
owning a hotel in a college town -- for some reason, those young men
(and women) are all perfect gentlepeople when they check in, but
occasionally turn ugly after a few too many shots at the downtown bars.
When they start singing on the balcony, it's time to go.

;-)

Remember, our prime directive is comfort for our guests. If someone
-- paying guest, or not -- is causing a disturbance that interferes
with the prime directive, they are escorted off the property, no
refunds -- and they sign a statement at check-in acknowledging this
policy. It doesn't happen often, but it *does* happen.

If you've EVER had a hotel room next to a party, and called the front
desk to complain, and been told "there's nothing we can do" -- you now
know they were lying to you.

But then, you already knew that, didn't you -- and never went back.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

>(A couple's ability or intention to
> reproduce together has never been a prerequisite for marriage, nor should it
> be.)

hmmm, is that what you think the issue is about?

>
> You're an American version of the Taliban.

Is this going to be a variant of Godwin's law? (in this context I'm thinking
more about the ending of the discussion rather than declaring a "winner").

>If you had your way, our legal
> system would just be a codification of ancient superstitious prejudices.

A classic technique is to grossly misrepresent someone's views. Too often
people use it in place of reasoned discussion.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote:
>
>> (A couple's ability or intention to
>> reproduce together has never been a prerequisite for marriage, nor should
>> it
>> be.)
>
> hmmm, is that what you think the issue is about?

It's a commonly cited excuse for opposing same-sex marriage. You haven't
bothered to cite *any* reason for your derogatory characterization, so I was
giving you the benefit of the doubt by speculating that you might have one.
Sorry if I overestimated you.

--Gary

[Jay Honeck]

> > 4. What's a "gay married couple"?
>
> Well, I'll take that one on, Jay, by asking in return -- and in
> seriousness -- what's a "married couple"?
>
> If the answer is, it's an essentially *legal* status, based on state or
> Federal laws regulating marriage, then I'll want to know why it
> shouldn't be available to gay as well as heterosexual couples.

Um, well, that's like asking why people who don't own land can't sell
it. Or why folks who order food in a restaurant must pay for it. It's
a legal definition.

Marriage is a state that exists between a man and a woman. You can
have the same legal rights between two men, or two women, if you'd
like, but you'll have to come up with a new name for it. Call it
"frimage", or "shariage", or some other made-up word for it -- but the
word "marriage" is already taken.

This ain't a religious issue. I don't care who is screwing whom, as
long as it's behind closed doors. But you'll have to come up with a
new term. (And I believe the majority of voters agree with me, for
once.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gary Drescher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> If the answer is, it's an essentially *legal* status, based on state or
>> Federal laws regulating marriage, then I'll want to know why it
>> shouldn't be available to gay as well as heterosexual couples.
>
> Marriage is a state that exists between a man and a woman. You can
> have the same legal rights between two men, or two women, if you'd
> like, but you'll have to come up with a new name for it.

Why? When we broadened marriage rights to include interracial couples, we
didn't have to come up with a new name for marriage. When we broadened
voting rights to include women, we didn't have to come up with a new name
for voting (even though voting had previously been regarded--for thousands
of years, in cultures throughout the world--as an inherently male activity).

Legal definitions evolve all the time. Why should they ossify instead? An as
an empirical fact, a growing number of nations (and portions of nations,
including the US) do define legal marriage without regard to the race,
religion, or gender of the participants.

--Gary

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> >> (A couple's ability or intention to
> >> reproduce together has never been a prerequisite for marriage, nor should
> >> it
> >> be.)
> >
> > hmmm, is that what you think the issue is about?
>
> It's a commonly cited excuse for opposing same-sex marriage.

The ONLY people I've ever heard cite that "excuse" actually support same-sex
marriage and are using it to misrepresent the opposing view.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

For further discussion, here is the exact wording of the recent referendum
in Wisconsin:
"Shall section 13 of article XIII of the constitution be created to provide
that only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or
recognized as a marriage in this state and that a legal status identical or
substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall
not be valid or recognized in this state."



The Yes vote was 59%, the No vote was 41%.



While not clearly defining the word marriage to be between a man and a
woman, several other states referendums did just that according the CNN 2006
Votes website.



Jim

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote:
>
>> >> (A couple's ability or intention to
>> >> reproduce together has never been a prerequisite for marriage, nor
>> >> should
>> >> it
>> >> be.)
>> >
>> > hmmm, is that what you think the issue is about?
>>
>> It's a commonly cited excuse for opposing same-sex marriage.
>
> The ONLY people I've ever heard cite that "excuse" actually support
> same-sex
> marriage and are using it to misrepresent the opposing view.

Reality consists of more than what you may remember ever hearing, Bob. A
moment's research would show that the specious procreation-prerequisite
argument is in fact at the heart of much of the world's opposition to
same-sex marriage.

To cite just the most obvious example, the Vatican--which prominently
lobbies against gay marriage in the US and throughout the world--published a
document in 2003 arguing that "marriage exists solely between a man and a
woman... in order to cooperate with God in the procreation and upbringing of
new human lives... in the Creator's plan, sexual complementarity and
fruitfulness belong to the very nature of marriage".

--Gary

[Martin Hotze]

On 11 Nov 2006 05:27:53 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote:

>> Just curious, but why do you feel having a web site is likely to linked to being
>> a better independent hotel?
>
>Motels without a personal website (meaning not the blanket "chain" site
>that covers the entire brand) have nothing to brag about, and are
>usually run by "managers" -- not "owners". This is an important,
>often critical difference in the service you will receive.

so what has this to do with a website? some (hotels) are small enough to
exist because of word of mouth, they don't need no friggin website.

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Newps]

Martin Hotze wrote:


>
> I was told to not talk about religion or politics when in the US (as a
> foreigner).



Nah, that only applies to relatives at Thanksgiving dinner.

[Newps]

mike regish wrote:

> Just what makes you think this is even an issue the people should vote on?
> Since when do people get to vote on basic rights?

That's not basic.


Do you think slavery would
> have been abolished if the people got to vote on it?

In the North? Hello? Read your history. It wouldn't have been close.

[Jessica Taylor]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> The difference is most of us don't post with the intent to draw out
> predictable answers. That's called trolling.
>
> I guess now I understand why you are so tolerant of Mxsmanic's behavior. He
> and you share a common personality defect.

Nice troll, Peter. Some of us enjoy Jay's stories more than your ad-hominen
attacks about your self-proclaimed 'personality defects.'

[Jessica Taylor]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
>
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."

One way to diffuse the situation would have been to say that his pilots
were welcome to try your hotel sometime, and it would be nice to have some
of the better charter pilots go there for a change, or another way to let
him know that you weren't accusing HIS pilots of being cheap SOBs.

[Jessica Taylor]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing
> >> "all" charter pilots.
> >
> > Do you not need more data points to dispute it?
>
> No. To support a blanket generalization, one needs to survey the entire
> population. To refute a blanket generalization, one need only survey a
> single member of the population, so long as that member is a
> counter-example.

If you had ever studied statistics, you would know that is not true. That is
why sample sizes are less than population sizes, and how confidence levels
are relevant.

[Jessica Taylor]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well he didn't say charter pilots never fill the tank, only when the tank
> > isn't filled, it is charter pilots.
>
> You can equivocate about the meaning of his comment if you like. However,
> to me it was pretty clear: charter pilots never fill the tank, and all
> charter pilots are poorly paid.
>
> He has no basis for making either claim.

The only "never" and "all" I read about charter pilots are from your own
comments, Duniho.
In fact, Jay/Mary did clarify that they were referring to "some."

I always enjoy it when somebody has to twist somebody else's words to make
their attack.

[Jessica Taylor]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You are putting words in his mouth, to support your argument; because it
> > suits you.
>
> Baloney. My interpretation of his statement is not only perfectly valid, it
> is strongly supported by Jay's own description of how he communicated to the
> other person.
>
> The only interpretation that could change the underlying correctness of his
> statements would be to think that Jay was speaking ONLY of the charter
> pilots he had personally met, and not only talked to but also obtained
> salary information from. There's absolutely no indication that was his
> meaning...even Jay himself has not suggested his intent was to restrict his
> statement to that group of people.

Except he wasn't the one who said "all pilots" or "never" in the context of
charter pilots or their pay. You were. Actually the words used by Jay/Mary
included "some." Go back to sleep.

[Jessica Taylor]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

> Jose wrote:
> >> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
> >> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
> >> others.
> >
> > ... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap *******s"?
> >
> > Does it even matter if, in your experience, it's true?
>
> Oh, good God... now I've heard it all. Jews have a long history of being
> discriminated against in every part of the world. Some Jews are even
> discriminated against in Israel. To your knowledge, what charter pilot has had
> to deal with that sort of discrimination? Is there a large portion of the
> world's population dedicating themselves to the destruction of charter pilots?
>
> What an incredibly .... words fail me.

I think you 'forgot' to read the little word 'IF' above.

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> Good points. And I do think the FBO owner's reaction was a bit much...but I
> wasn't there either. We only have Jay's version. Being from Mass. and having
> voted for John Kerry in '04, I could instantly tell that I don't agree with
> his politics-and that's putting it mildly. But as others have noticed, Mr.
> Honeck has several "opinions" that encompass large groups with what appears
> to be no exceptions for individuals within those groups.
>
> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be a
> bigot.

Bigot? Umm, proof? Cite?

In my experience throughout my lifetime, I've found that those who preach
tolerance and acceptance are actually the least tolerant and the least accepting
themselves. It's real easy to toss insults around like calling others a bigot.

By the way, what does "being from mass" have to do with agreeing w/ someone's
politics??? A little over-generalizing, aren't we?

[Jessica Taylor]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In article om>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> > Wow, first I "hate FBOs", and now I'm a "bigot"?
>
> Remember that to some people "bigot" means anyone who
> doesn't like that you don't buy into their agenda.

Right. When you know that there is no *rational* explanation to
justifiy yourself, it's real simple to just call someone a bigot,
racist, -phobe, whatever.

[Jessica Taylor]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
> >> ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.
> >
> > He couldn't know it to be false. He was a sample of one.
>
> It only takes a sample of one to disprove a claim about "all".

Except Jay was claiming it was a "claim about 'all'." That was your claim to
make and attack against.

[Jessica Taylor]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:53:49 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
> >I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior. I
> >realize it's popular today to call any sort of consideration for other
> >people's feelings "politically correct", but really...you guys seem to be
> >making a sport out of the practice. It doesn't matter how polite or
> >"genteel" a person is, being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.
> >I've known plenty of well-mannered people who nevertheless didn't have a
> >clue when it came to avoiding insulting stereotypes.
>
> You haven't spent much time in the mid west.

Thanks for another generalization, Larry.

[Jessica Taylor]

Judah wrote:

> (Ron Lee) wrote in news:45551f12.7993328
> @news.pcisys.net:
>
> > Judah > wrote:
> >
> (Ron Lee) wrote in news:4554e3a0.648968
> :
> >>
> >>> No, it just means that many liberals are hypocrites in addition to
> >>> doing things (programs like welfare) that ruin lives and result in the
> >>> deaths of innocent Americans.
> >>>
> >>> But liberals can't see what their failures have done.
> >>
> >>Have you sampled a thousand random liberals to come to this conclusion?
> >
> > Nope. I judge them by what they have done and continue to do.
>
> You mean you have met ALL liberals?
>
> Wow, I don't remember meeting you.

I think he meant liberal policies and their effects, not meeting all liberal
people.

[Jessica Taylor]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > > [...] (b) it's always fun to watch the different (and utterly predictable)
> > > reactions from certain members of this group.
> >
> > Yikes, you mean you were trolling?!
>
> Is it trolling when the reaction is always the same? If a tree falls
> in the woods, and there's no one there to hear it...well, you know the
> rest.
>
> Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,
> set up to respond
> with three specific responses that are triggered by any given stimuli.
> Google could easily set something like this up in order to keep the
> newsgroups rolling along...

"Bigot! You never ___! You said ____! Bigot! You haven't spent time in the
midwes to hear that it's full of bigots!"

[Jessica Taylor]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Is it trolling when the reaction is always the same?
>
> It is trolling when you post *because* you know the reaction is always the
> same. Which is exactly what you said you did.
>
> > [...]
> > Sometimes I swear Mike, Pete and Jose are simply Usenet AI programs,
> > set up to respond
> > with three specific responses that are triggered by any given stimuli.
>
> The precise same thing could be said about you. So what? I'd say most of
> the people who post here have fairly predictable responses.

The reaction of "some" people might be the same. Others might be different.
Still others might just enjoy reading and not have any reaction. YMMV.

[Jessica Taylor]

Steve Foley wrote:

> Every privately owned hotel I have stayed in has been worse than any chain.

Most chain hotels are "privately owned" and many of them are individually owned
too.

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Jay filled the courtesy car because he's too cheap to fill his airplane.
>
> Which brings up an interesting point. Would the average FBO rather
> have his courtesy car's tank filled, or would he rather pump 8 gallons
> of Avgas into a plane that doesn't need gas?
>
> I had 76 gallons on board when I landed, Karl. Making the line guy
> bring the truck over didn't make much sense.


He'd MUCH rather sell you fuel. That's his business.
Would you rather a customer just spend one night in your hotel, or fill up
your courtesy car?

And a charter pilot might be a cheap ******* by your accounts, but he'd
NEVER go on a one hour flight in a Cherokee with 500 pounds of gas.

The Cessna 185 holds 92 gallons of gas. There are times that I like to take
that much fuel, like on floats into the interior of British Columbia. But
for just cruising around, I like to have FUN, and that means a light
airplane for the $200 hamburger.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

[mike regish]

Said like a true latent homosexual...

mike

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
news:ihatessppaamm-

> i.e., that sexual perversion is
> a basic right.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> Looking for a sig the
> lawyers will hate
>

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> Well, let's see here.
>
> In the past month or 2 you've declared your bigotry towards government
> employees, unions, union employees, charter pilots and charter owners. I may
> have left a few out, but that's CRS for ya.

Where was the declaration? Don't be afraid to back up your statement.

>
>
> I'd be willing to bet I can throw in homosexuals and gay married couples.

Bet's on. Where is your cite?

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> Just what makes you think this is even an issue the people should vote on?
> Since when do people get to vote on basic rights? Do you think slavery would
> have been abolished if the people got to vote on it?

Absolutely!

>
>
> Maybe we should get to vote on kicking the right wing, ultra conservative,
> neo-con, war-mongering, fear-inducing, bible beating regressives out of the
> country. I know how I'd vote.

Well at least you're not bigotted enough to resort to labels and calling names.

I'm just sorry that you didn't vote the terrorists away ten years ago.

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> Just what makes you think this is even an issue the people should vote on?

Because people participated in the democratic process, collected the
prerequisite signatures, followed the constitutional process, and petitioned the
government to do what the constitution called for.

>
> Since when do people get to vote on basic rights?

Have you not heard of the Constitution?

[Jessica Taylor]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "mike regish" > wrote:
> >
> >> One of my daughter's best friends has 3 dads-2 of whom are married. And I
> >> went to the wedding of one of my wife's coworkers and friends who married
> >> her girlfriend.
> >
> > You live in Taxachusetts?
> >
> > Ya think one of these days the citizens can actually vote on the issue,
>
> That would be inappropriate, for the same reason that it would be wrong to
> launch a referendum on whether interracial couples should be prohibited from
> marrying, or whether Jews should be required to wear yellow stars.
>
> Democracy is not the same as absolute tyranny of the majority. In a
> democracy, equality before the law enjoys constitutional protections that
> cannot be overridden by a majority vote.
>
> (In addition to being inappropriate, a referendum on the issue would not
> change the law: a solid majority of Massachusetts citizens and legislators
> support same-sex marriage rights.)

Then why are they so afraid of following the constitutional process? If this
is truly a right, and not an activist court's proclamations, why not make it
legimately so by the voice of the people?

[Jessica Taylor]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You and Mike assume facts not in evidence, i.e., that sexual perversion is
> > a basic right.
>
> Some call interracial marriage a perversion; others call intragender
> marriage a perversion. In either case, it's just bigoted name-calling,
> unsupported by any rational argument. (A couple's ability or intention to
> reproduce together has never been a prerequisite for marriage, nor should it
> be.)
>
> You're an American version of the Taliban.

I'll bet he's a bigot and a racist and a --phobe too, right! Glad to see your
own "tolerance" expressed in words.

[Jessica Taylor]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In article >,
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote:
>
> > >> (A couple's ability or intention to
> > >> reproduce together has never been a prerequisite for marriage, nor should
> > >> it
> > >> be.)
> > >
> > > hmmm, is that what you think the issue is about?
> >
> > It's a commonly cited excuse for opposing same-sex marriage.
>
> The ONLY people I've ever heard cite that "excuse" actually support same-sex
> marriage and are using it to misrepresent the opposing view.

I would be happily supportive of same-sex marrige if that is what the VOTERS
decide to support. Instead in one state we had a court say something and the
legislature has now twice rejected the a legitimate petititon of the government by
the people who participated in the process.

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> And I might look him up to say hi.even though he sounds like a republican.

Wow, how very accepting you are! You might dare to say hi to someone who
doesn't mirror your own point of view.

I guess that is the true "tolerance" of a self-proclaimed liberal.

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> I'd say he's lost potentially many. I know I wouldn't waste my money there.

Yeah I could tell by your comments that you are too intolerant of someone who
has other views.

[Jessica Taylor]

Buck Murdock wrote:

> In article . com>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> > ...to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> > folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
> That's what you get for trying to make intelligent conversation with a
> hard-core Republican!

Yeah, comparing Jay to that well-known jokester and comedian, John 'you will
get stuck in iraq' Kerry. Hahaha.

[mike regish]

I could do it without getting unruly, either.

mike

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I bet I could do it without even getting impolite.
>
> I believe you are correct.
>
> Actually, I've escorted a few unruly guests off the property --

[mike regish]

Why. Does that somehow threaten YOUR marriage?

mike

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> > 4. What's a "gay married couple"?
>>
>
> Marriage is a state that exists between a man and a woman. You can
> have the same legal rights between two men, or two women, if you'd
> like, but you'll have to come up with a new name for it.

[mike regish]

There's the key word...Evolve.

You're using it on a person who is incapable of evolving. It scares him, so
he'd rather keep things the same for as long as possible.

mike

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
>
> Legal definitions evolve all the time. Why should they ossify instead? An
> as an empirical fact, a growing number of nations (and portions of
> nations, including the US) do define legal marriage without regard to the
> race, religion, or gender of the participants.
>
> --Gary
>
>

[mike regish]

Duh.

mike

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do you think slavery would
>> have been abolished if the people got to vote on it?
>
> In the North? Hello? Read your history. It wouldn't have been close.
>
>
>

[mike regish]

"Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> That's bigotry. And Mr. Honeck has repeatedly demonstrated himself to be
>> a
>> bigot.
>
> Bigot? Umm, proof? Cite?

Read back a few posts.
>
> In my experience throughout my lifetime, I've found that those who preach
> tolerance and acceptance are actually the least tolerant and the least
> accepting
> themselves. It's real easy to toss insults around like calling others a
> bigot.
>
> By the way, what does "being from mass" have to do with agreeing w/
> someone's
> politics??? A little over-generalizing, aren't we?

Yeah. I guess. It really is my fault, you know, that we're referred to here
as Taxachusetts. Where's I hear that before...? Hmmm...
>

[mike regish]

I love it when the most irrational always claim to be the most rational.

mike

"Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Right. When you know that there is no *rational* explanation to
> justifiy yourself, it's real simple to just call someone a bigot,
> racist, -phobe, whatever.
>

[mike regish]

I think he meant...

Hmmm... where've I heard that before...

mike

"Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think he meant liberal policies and their effects, not meeting all
> liberal
> people.
>
>
>
>
>

[Gary Drescher]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
. ..
> There's the key word...Evolve.
>
> You're using it on a person who is incapable of evolving. It scares him,
> so he'd rather keep things the same for as long as possible.

Let's try, on both sides, to avoid posts that consist exclusively of
personal taunts. Such posts do nothing to advance the discussion.

--Gary


>
> mike
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
>>
>> Legal definitions evolve all the time. Why should they ossify instead? An
>> as an empirical fact, a growing number of nations (and portions of
>> nations, including the US) do define legal marriage without regard to the
>> race, religion, or gender of the participants.
>>
>> --Gary
>>
>>
>
>

[mike regish]

Huh?

mike

"Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bigot! You never ___! You said ____! Bigot! You haven't spent time in
> the
> midwes to hear that it's full of bigots!"
>

[mike regish]

"Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> mike regish wrote:
>
>> Well, let's see here.
>>
>> In the past month or 2 you've declared your bigotry towards government
>> employees, unions, union employees, charter pilots and charter owners. I
>> may
>> have left a few out, but that's CRS for ya.
>
> Where was the declaration? Don't be afraid to back up your statement.

Google it. I'm not wasting my time trying to prove anything to you.
>
>>
>>
>> I'd be willing to bet I can throw in homosexuals and gay married couples.
>
> Bet's on. Where is your cite?

Who needs a cite to make a bet? Jeez...are you blonde?

(did that **** you off?)

Anyway (and here's something I'll bet will never come out of your
keyboard-or J's), I was wrong about that. He surprised me. Generally, the
type of ignorance he's been displying didn't indicate to me a developed
enough mind.


mike

P.S. Apologies to all blondes. Just trying, vainly no doubt, to make a
point.

>

[Gary Drescher]

"Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
...
> Gary Drescher wrote:
>> That would be inappropriate, for the same reason that it would be wrong
>> to
>> launch a referendum on whether interracial couples should be prohibited
>> from
>> marrying, or whether Jews should be required to wear yellow stars.
>>
>> Democracy is not the same as absolute tyranny of the majority. In a
>> democracy, equality before the law enjoys constitutional protections that
>> cannot be overridden by a majority vote.
>>
>> (In addition to being inappropriate, a referendum on the issue would not
>> change the law: a solid majority of Massachusetts citizens and
>> legislators
>> support same-sex marriage rights.)
>
> Then why are they so afraid of following the constitutional process?

Why do you assume the reason is fear, when I just articulated (and you did
not rebut) an alternative reason?

> If this is truly a right, and not an activist court's proclamations, why
> not make it
> legimately so by the voice of the people?

First, it is already a right in Massachusetts by a legitimate process,
namely the judicial enforcement of constitutional (in this case, the state
constitution) guarantees of equality. There is a reason that the judicial
branch is part of the checks and balances of our system of government. It
does not lose legitimacy just because you disagree with a particular
decision.

Second, as I mentioned, democracy is distinct from tyranny of the majority.
Democracy includes protection of equality before the law even if the
majority would like to abridge that equality. Would you consider it
appropriate to hold a referendum on whether to require Jews to wear yellow
stars, if thousands of people signed a petition to amend the constitution
accordingly? Would you object if legislators used lawful parliamentary
maneuvering to prevent *that* amendment from being put to a popular vote?

--Gary

[mike regish]

Used to be, I could talk to anybody-even a republican.

Since Bush Jr., as soon as sombody declares themselves a republican, the
conversation's over. That's one thing I really thank Bush Jr. for. He's made
it crystal clear what his party's about.

mike

"Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish wrote:
>
>> And I might look him up to say hi.even though he sounds like a
>> republican.
>
> Wow, how very accepting you are! You might dare to say hi to someone who
> doesn't mirror your own point of view.
>
> I guess that is the true "tolerance" of a self-proclaimed liberal.
>

[mike regish]

Yep.

mike

"Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish wrote:
>
>> I'd say he's lost potentially many. I know I wouldn't waste my money
>> there.
>
> Yeah I could tell by your comments that you are too intolerant of someone
> who
> has other views.
>

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> "Jessica Taylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > mike regish wrote:
> >
> >> Well, let's see here.
> >>
> >> In the past month or 2 you've declared your bigotry towards government
> >> employees, unions, union employees, charter pilots and charter owners. I
> >> may
> >> have left a few out, but that's CRS for ya.
> >
> > Where was the declaration? Don't be afraid to back up your statement.
>
> Google it. I'm not wasting my time trying to prove anything to you.

That would be hard to do when there is nothing to google for. You made the
statement, you cannot support it with facts, and your only defense is to tell
someone else to try supporting your statement.

>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I'd be willing to bet I can throw in homosexuals and gay married couples.
> >
> > Bet's on. Where is your cite?
>
> Who needs a cite to make a bet? Jeez...are you blonde?

What if I was? Are you? You sure like toss around your own stereotypes after
criticizing others.

>
>
> (did that **** you off?)

No. But I seem to think you wish that you did "**** me off." You're real nice.

>
>
> Anyway (and here's something I'll bet will never come out of your
> keyboard-or J's), I was wrong about that. He surprised me. Generally, the
> type of ignorance

Actually you are the one displaying ignorance, you made defamatory claims that
you cannot even back up.

> he's been displying didn't indicate to me a developed
> enough mind.

Oh, ok so now you have to attack someone's mind. Another dose of ad-hominem
attacks from the one who calls himself "progressive." I'm shocked!

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> There's the key word...Evolve.
>
> You're using it on a person who is incapable of evolving. It scares him, so
> he'd rather keep things the same for as long as possible.

How 'liberal' of you. Just spew out personal insults and ad-hominem attacks.
Maybe then they could become true, you don't need any facts.

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> Why. Does that somehow threaten YOUR marriage?
>
> mike
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >> > 4. What's a "gay married couple"?
> >>
> >
> > Marriage is a state that exists between a man and a woman. You can
> > have the same legal rights between two men, or two women, if you'd
> > like, but you'll have to come up with a new name for it.

Who said it did? Non-sequitur.

[Jessica Taylor]

mike regish wrote:

> Used to be, I could talk to anybody-even a republican.
>
> Since Bush Jr., as soon as sombody declares themselves a republican, the
> conversation's over. That's one thing I really thank Bush Jr. for. He's made
> it crystal clear what his party's about.

Apparently what his party's about is getting you to show your true colors: such
powerful narrow-minded intolerance for others that have other points of view
that you cannot even communicate.