pilots only, please - gps or altimeter?

[houstondan]

rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.

hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
inside the milk bottle.

gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.

not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
do??

really.

dan

[Mxsmanic]

houstondan writes:

> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.

GPS is reliable for this type of issue, even without WAAS. Just don't
rely on it to determine your altitude.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[houstondan]

what part of "pilots only" do you not understand? you have your thread
and your opinion has been heard. now go away. many real pilots will not
participate if you're in the thread and i'm really trying to talk to
them.

dan
Mxsmanic wrote:
> houstondan writes:
>
> > gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> > gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> GPS is reliable for this type of issue, even without WAAS. Just don't
> rely on it to determine your altitude.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Aluckyguess]

Why is there only 10 minutes of fuel on board?

[d&tm]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??
> dan
The engineers answer - it depends.answer below assumes I am using my little
hand held gps with not altitude info.
First I would look at my altimeter
If the gps tells me where i am , I would look at the chart I am carrying and
find out what the terrain is like and minimum safe altitude. I would
descend to that altitude and hope to get out of the soup. at the same time
I would be heading in the direction of the best possible landing area (
using rate 1 turn if required). I would also be flying at the precautionary
speed wtih 20 degrees of flaps ( in my warrior).
If I had ample fuel my answer would be very different. I would most
probably try to climb above it and look for a hole. I would also be using
whatever assistance I could get on the radio from ATC , other aircraft etc
to establish what the cloud situation is. But with limited fuel , I just
want to get down with some power to play with.
terry

[Mxsmanic]

houstondan writes:

> what part of "pilots only" do you not understand?

I understand it, but you are not the master of this newsgroup, and if
it pleases me to reply, I will.

> many real pilots will not
> participate if you're in the thread and i'm really trying to talk to
> them.

Any real pilot who refuses to participate solely because of my
participation is not only a pilot but also a petulant little boy, and
since that would not bode well for the quality of his replies, it may
be just as well if he abstains.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

houstondan wrote:
> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??
>
> really.
>
> dan

Reduce power to best endurance, call ATC, explain your predicament,
declare an emergency and request vectors to the nearest airport and
prepare for a crash landing on the way. If you are extremely lucky you
will make it to the airport and only have the FAA to deal with. If you
are very lucky, your engine will quit over friendly terrain and you
will land in an open field with no injuries except damage to the
airplane. If you are somewhat lucky you will crash into trees but will
survive with injuries. If you are unlucky, you will not make it out
alive.

[[email protected]]

houstondan wrote:

> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??

Neither GPS or altimeter since this would be one of the least concerns
in saving your bacon.

You already don't know your "exact" AGL from your landing point, so
other then an approximation from your GPS, first order of priority is
to keep the shiny side up.

Attitude indicator (Aviate or fly the plane)
Some people may say best glide speed, but this really depends on what
you think you will come into after breaking out. If the best glide
speed takes you into mountains, then that may not the best thing to do.
(navigate)
If able, declare emergency 121.5 or ATC if already in contact
(communicate)

Any prayer you can come up with for a good outcome since more then
likely spatial disorientation will be a major player since you said you
were VFR only.

After breaking out of the clouds (assuming low ceilings), emergency
checklist, including opening cabin door before landing.

If high ceilings, you have a little more time to select your emergency
landing site, set up for landing, slowest speed possible, emergency
check list for landing.

Your scenario really has too many variables that were not defined to
really nail down procedures since winds / clouds and human physiology
really comes into play so the above are generalizations that I would do
if I was in the scenario described.

Allen

[Brett Meares]

Dan: First and foremost I would fess up and declare an emergency. A
declaration of "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" on Guard Frequency coupled with a
7700 Squawk will get EVERYONE'S attention immediately. Stick with this for
a few minutes trying to establish contact. DO NOT change frequencies, make
the world come to you. If the autopilot is functioning continue to let it
do the flying. After establishing contact with ATC let them bring Flight
service into the mix and try to determine bases via PIREPS and forecasts.
Again, don't get into changing frequencies, let everyone else come to you.
Once you look down and start fiddling with stuff you run the risk of vertigo
and that can ruin your day. Assuming there is room under the overcast
(Confirmed via Flight Watch / Center / Etc...,) reduce power and let the
autopilot continue flying in the descent until you break out underneath.
Then just find a smooth spot.
Assuming you are in an area without radar coverage I would still stay
with the above plan. The high altitude traffic will be able to hear you
over a very large footprint and center could triangulate your location
accurately enough for a rough report of bases. The high altitude guys will
also have onboard capabilities relative to base reports / forecasts. If
your autopilot is chugging along you could also relay a position report to
center via a high altitude contact.
Now lets assume that it's truly a low day with 200 OC and you couldn't
contact center. I would do everything the same while enlisting the help
from the high altitude guys to find the smoothest spot for landing and also
make sure that support would be immediately dispatched. Relative to smooth
spots my first thought would be to try for a body of water strait ahead. If
the autopilot could do the turn I would go as far as a standard rate
turning descent until you break out underneath while over water (no fear of
hitting obstructions). If your autopilot is a wing leveler I wouldn't think
the circling descent would be worth the risk. If the whole area is
relatively inhospitable I would try to get as close to civilization as
possible to make the rescue easier.
In summary I think the emergency declaration on Guard is key; it brings
a very large area of aviation to your aid immediately. Even if you couldn't
get Center I would guess a 50 - 100 mile radius for the high altitude
population. Just remember, forget the Ego and fess-up. Brett


"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??
>
> really.
>
> dan
>

[Jim Logajan]

"houstondan" > wrote:
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??

Cut power and deploy the ballistic parachute.

;-)

[kontiki]

houstondan wrote:
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??

The totalizer is reporting run-time at cruise power. I would throttle
back, lean agressively and fly at best glide + maybe 10 knots (or whatever
would give me best endurance) and contact somebody for help.

[birdog]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??
>
> really.
>
> dan

Ten minutes worth of fuel??? Solution: Land an hour ago and refuel.

Not an option? Stand up on the seat and kiss your ass goodbye. After the
cremation, all the other pilots that have to share the sky with you can
breathe a sigh of relief.

[Huck]

Thank you birdog!!!
There is no reason whatsoever a real pilot would/should get into a
situation where there is only 10 mins left worth of fuel. NO matter
what. That is why this is a silly question. But if this was to happen
The declaration of an emergency is required. Have some others help....
period then do as birdog says bendover and kiss your ass goodbye

matt
birdog wrote:
> "houstondan" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> > new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
> >
> > hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> > wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> > take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> > inside the milk bottle.
> >
> > gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> > gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
> >
> > not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> > do??
> >
> > really.
> >
> > dan
>
> Ten minutes worth of fuel??? Solution: Land an hour ago and refuel.
>
> Not an option? Stand up on the seat and kiss your ass goodbye. After the
> cremation, all the other pilots that have to share the sky with you can
> breathe a sigh of relief.

[karl gruber[_1_]]

You'd do better by listening to MX on the subect of GPS. He has shown a
greater understanding of GPS than most of the pilots here.

Karl


"houstondan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> what part of "pilots only" do you not understand? you have your thread
> and your opinion has been heard. now go away. many real pilots will not
> participate if you're in the thread and i'm really trying to talk to
> them.
>
> dan
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> houstondan writes:
>>
>> > gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
>> > gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>>
>> GPS is reliable for this type of issue, even without WAAS. Just don't
>> rely on it to determine your altitude.
>>
>> --
>> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>

[john smith]

I am trying to understand why Andrew and kontiki are the only two with
the correct answer.

[Ron Lee]

Frankly this would qualify the pilot for the Darwin Award for being
inept. Then look at the GPS moving map/charts for a little used road.
You have no right to jeopardize others on the ground so whatever
landing surface is available that reduces the risk to you and
eliminates risk to others on the ground is what you have to deal with.

Of course other factors play into this.

Ron Lee

[houstondan]

....no, karl, that simply is not true and that's why i framed it the way
i have. it really relates to the totality of the systems and conditions
and not just the simple math. look at the responses that pilots are
giving.

can't you see the difference?

ever hear about how, if a pilot makes an air-traffic mistake the pilot
can die but that if an air traffic controller makes an air traffic
mistake...the pilot can die.

there is a qualitative difference between the thoughts of someone
reading a book and someone living it.

once you've heard the tape of a vfr into i.m.c. situation you'll know
what i'm talking about.

dan





dan
karl gruber wrote:
> You'd do better by listening to MX on the subect of GPS. He has shown a
> greater understanding of GPS than most of the pilots here.
>
> Karl
>
>
> "houstondan" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > what part of "pilots only" do you not understand? you have your thread
> > and your opinion has been heard. now go away. many real pilots will not
> > participate if you're in the thread and i'm really trying to talk to
> > them.
> >
> > dan
> > Mxsmanic wrote:
> >> houstondan writes:
> >>
> >> > gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> >> > gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
> >>
> >> GPS is reliable for this type of issue, even without WAAS. Just don't
> >> rely on it to determine your altitude.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
> >

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??
>
> really.
>
> dan
>

Die.

Really.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Morgans[_2_]]

> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.

Head in the direction of the airport, lean as much as possible, start a best
climb speed to gain as much time in the air after the fan stops, then
communicate.

Hope that your altitude is enough to glide to the airport, glide at best glide
speed until close to the ground, then set up for stall plus 5 and wait to come
out of the clouds, or to hit the ground, which ever comes first.
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> houstondan wrote:
>> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
>> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>>
>> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
>> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
>> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
>> inside the milk bottle.
>>
>> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
>> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>>
>> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
>> do??
>>
>> really.
>>
>> dan
>
> Reduce power to best endurance, call ATC, explain your predicament,

You are a "blue sky vfr pilot". Playing with the radios is only going to
increase the (already overwelming) odds that you will become disorented and
die.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 12 Nov 2006 13:02:38 -0800, "Huck" > wrote:

> There is no reason whatsoever a real pilot would/should get into a
>situation where there is only 10 mins left worth of fuel. NO matter
>what.

Medical emergency. Pilot passes out with autopilot running, comes to just
before the fuel runs out. IIRC, it was an incident like this that got the late
Gordon Baxter to finally quit flying.

You won't find too many people who'll say that Gordon Baxter wasn't a "real
pilot."

Ron Wanttaja

[Tony]

I'd declare an emergency, ask for vectors for the lowest ground around
hoping the clouds wouldn't be on the deck there. I'd also want to have
the engine running when I got close to the ground, I may need some gas
to avoid something ugly and gliding at a few knots above stall might
not let me get above or around that tree.

For sure be sure the door is open before impact. If you have your wits
about you, idle cut off and master off would be a good idea but
probably both are minor protections.

Promise yourself you'll fly the airplane into the ground, don't stall
out at 50 feet. I think the statistics are on your side, a lot people
survive general avaition crashes.

Makes me wonder, will I be clever enough to do all of that? Coming down
in the clouds is more likely to happen to someone like me, I do lots of
SEL IMC flying.

Here's an interesting exercise. Next time you're flying around VFR,
look at what you're flying over. If it's Nebraska, you'll probably come
down on a field. If you're over the Rockies, you're probably not going
to make it. In PA, if you know the characteristic direction of the
mountains, flying parallel to them would be a good idea. Those worn
down mountains were seriously feared and ate a lot of airplanes in the
40s and 50s. I seem to remember airplanes flying on airways defined by
rotating beacons in that era.





On Nov 12, 5:41 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> > hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> > wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> > take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> > inside the milk bottle.Head in the direction of the airport, lean as much as possible, start a best
> climb speed to gain as much time in the air after the fan stops, then
> communicate.
>
> Hope that your altitude is enough to glide to the airport, glide at best glide
> speed until close to the ground, then set up for stall plus 5 and wait to come
> out of the clouds, or to hit the ground, which ever comes first.
> --
> Jim in NC

[RST Engineering]

Sexist son of a bitch.

Jim



"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

>
> Any real pilot who refuses to participate solely because of my
> participation is not only a pilot but also a petulant little boy, and
> since that would not bode well for the quality of his replies, it may
> be just as well if he abstains.

[houstondan]

tony...good thoughts. seems wise to give center or approach or whoever
might have you on radar a chance to send you away from the worst of the
bad things "as they know them". the way it's going, that person in
center might be in bangladesh and doing credit verification between
calls.

but i digress...

my 396 has terrain awareness and it did warn me off a tower i had not
shown proper respect so it's certainly not a useless feature.

about sneaky fog and trapped on top; y'all know good and well that it
happens all the time that perfectly good pilots happily boogieing on at
mach 2 listening to the tunes, enter the accident chain without doing
anything real wrong. they've got an hours reserve and once they snap to
the fact that their destination is closing in they'll just divert over
yonder where it's bound to be better and then......damn.

we get sneakey fog around here. big, deep. i know a guy who lost all
the local airports coming back from galveston one evening, he did not
have enough fuel to outrun it north (and not enough motor anyway).
used the gps and the vors and iah approach and anything else he could
think of but at then end...as he was decending into the milk toward
what he hoped was a runway way below any kind of rational minimum, the
last instrument he was watching was the altimeter.

and by the way, darwin would have liked him just fine. since any
licensed pilot represents the top 3% of the population, even the
really bad ones improve the species by breeding.

although some do get kind of mean and testy when they get old and can't
breed any more.

dan







Tony wrote:
> I'd declare an emergency, ask for vectors for the lowest ground around
> hoping the clouds wouldn't be on the deck there. I'd also want to have
> the engine running when I got close to the ground, I may need some gas
> to avoid something ugly and gliding at a few knots above stall might
> not let me get above or around that tree.
>
> For sure be sure the door is open before impact. If you have your wits
> about you, idle cut off and master off would be a good idea but
> probably both are minor protections.
>
> Promise yourself you'll fly the airplane into the ground, don't stall
> out at 50 feet. I think the statistics are on your side, a lot people
> survive general avaition crashes.
>
> Makes me wonder, will I be clever enough to do all of that? Coming down
> in the clouds is more likely to happen to someone like me, I do lots of
> SEL IMC flying.
>
> Here's an interesting exercise. Next time you're flying around VFR,
> look at what you're flying over. If it's Nebraska, you'll probably come
> down on a field. If you're over the Rockies, you're probably not going
> to make it. In PA, if you know the characteristic direction of the
> mountains, flying parallel to them would be a good idea. Those worn
> down mountains were seriously feared and ate a lot of airplanes in the
> 40s and 50s. I seem to remember airplanes flying on airways defined by
> rotating beacons in that era.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 12, 5:41 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> > > hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> > > wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> > > take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> > > inside the milk bottle.Head in the direction of the airport, lean as much as possible, start a best
> > climb speed to gain as much time in the air after the fan stops, then
> > communicate.
> >
> > Hope that your altitude is enough to glide to the airport, glide at best glide
> > speed until close to the ground, then set up for stall plus 5 and wait to come
> > out of the clouds, or to hit the ground, which ever comes first.
> > --
> > Jim in NC

[RST Engineering]

That's Toto, btw.

Even blue sky vfr flyers have minimal instrument training, at least enough
to keep the sucker upright if they can keep their heads screwed on straight.
Most of us won't sign the bottom line on the recommendation form if we think
the student will scatter themselves (and worse, innocent passengers) across
the landscape if they get their tits in the wringer.

GPS won't list private or duster strips on their database, so the best you
can hope for is an ATC troop that has been on the local job long enough to
know the terrain.

First rule, don't touch nothin'. Somehow your machine flew itself straight
and level into this mess, let it keep on keeping on.

Second rule. Come to best glide speed and reduce power to keep the altimeter
steady.

Third rule. 121.5 and 7700. SOMEbody is going to hear you real soon. If
you are not in mountainous territory, there are damned few locations in the
country that don't have ATC coverage 3000+ AGL. If you ain't 3000+ AGL,
burn a little fuel to get there.

Hope to hell the ATC on the other end of the horn has a clue what's flat,
long, soft, and cheap to hit (in that order).

Jim
(who has been there twice, in the mountains, with zero warning, but not in
IFR)

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??
>
> really.
>
> dan
>

[Dan Luke]

"karl gruber" wrote:

> You'd do better by listening to MX on the subect of GPS. He has shown a
> greater understanding of GPS than most of the pilots here.

No, he hasn't.

In Dan's hypothetical situation, a GPS would be fine for determining
altitude--better than an altimeter.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Darkwing]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??
>
> really.
>
> dan
>

Sounds like I'm screwed, might as well see if the bad boy can do an aileron
roll and loop!

First I would shat myself and then come up with a new plan.

------------------------------------------------------------
DW

[Walt]

Why come down so hard on Mx? He made a reasonable reply.

Personally, I wouldn't be anywhere in the air with only 10 minutes of
fuel left. I'd say the accident chain is well on its way by then.

--Walt
Bozeman, Montana


houstondan wrote:
> what part of "pilots only" do you not understand? you have your thread
> and your opinion has been heard. now go away. many real pilots will not
> participate if you're in the thread and i'm really trying to talk to
> them.
>
> dan
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> > houstondan writes:
> >
> > > gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> > > gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
> >
> > GPS is reliable for this type of issue, even without WAAS. Just don't
> > rely on it to determine your altitude.
> >
> > --
> > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Kev]

Tony wrote:
> I'd declare an emergency, ask for vectors for the lowest ground around
> hoping the clouds wouldn't be on the deck there. I'd also want to have
> the engine running when I got close to the ground, I may need some gas
> to avoid something ugly and gliding at a few knots above stall might
> not let me get above or around that tree.

I seem to recall a study that said if you manage to glide for at least
45 seconds after shutting down your piston engine, then the cooling
reduces your chances of a post-crash fire by over 50%.

If true, then if you're low on fuel, your advice is good because you
have little to burn anyway. But if your motor is sputtering and the
plane is loaded with gas, it seems to argue that we should shut down
the engine as early as practical in hopes of avoiding a fire. Hard
choice!

Kev

[Tony]

I'd think if you're out of fuel -- just the unusable in the tanks,
chances of fire are pretty low. If I knew I wasn't going to get to an
airport (like my gauges are that accurate, right?) I would not fly to
fuel exhaustion then glide into the ground. I'd want enough fuel so if
I did break out or see the ground before impact I'd have enough power
to make a choice or two. If nothing else, I'd bring that sucker way
back on the power curve and drag it onto the dirt hanging on its prop.
That might buy me a few fewer knots of airspeed, and energy goes as
speed squared of course.

One could always have a tank spring a leak, of course, but a consistant
fuel management scheme can make fuel exhaustion a little less likely.
My fuel management checklist goes like this.

Before startup, switch to the less fuel tank.

Start up and start to taxi out on that tank. Now I'm pretty sure that
side is sweet.

Switch to the takeoff tank, finish the taxi out and run up on that one.
Now I'm pretty sure that tank is sweet too.

Take off, fly away a little less than half that fuel. Switch tanks. If
the new tank had become sour there should be enough left in the take
off tank to get me back to where I came from.

Otherwise, fly that tank to nearly empty.

Then, switch tanks, land and refuel, even if my destination is only 100
miles away. I'll always have at least 25% fuel on board.

The Mooney I used to own carried 33 gallons on each side, and could be
leaned to sip less than 10 GPH. I just described a 5 plus hour flight.
I'd been lucky enough to fly from LA to the northeast coast a couple of
times that way with just two en route fuel stops, going mostly at
11,000 feet and riding the wind. Adventures like that are best done
solo or with PX who know they have to moderate their water intake.
Ziplock bags are a poor substitute for on board toilet facilities! My
experience is most times the airplane has a LOT more endurance than the
PX (and sometimes, the PIC)!

Yeah, I know about keeping hydrated.

On Nov 12, 11:12 pm, "Kev" > wrote:
> Tony wrote:
> > I'd declare an emergency, ask for vectors for the lowest ground around
> > hoping the clouds wouldn't be on the deck there. I'd also want to have
> > the engine running when I got close to the ground, I may need some gas
> > to avoid something ugly and gliding at a few knots above stall might
> > not let me get above or around that tree.I seem to recall a study that said if you manage to glide for at least
> 45 seconds after shutting down your piston engine, then the cooling
> reduces your chances of a post-crash fire by over 50%.
>
> If true, then if you're low on fuel, your advice is good because you
> have little to burn anyway. But if your motor is sputtering and the
> plane is loaded with gas, it seems to argue that we should shut down
> the engine as early as practical in hopes of avoiding a fire. Hard
> choice!
>
> Kev

[Mxsmanic]

houstondan writes:

> ...no, karl, that simply is not true and that's why i framed it the way
> i have. it really relates to the totality of the systems and conditions
> and not just the simple math. look at the responses that pilots are
> giving.

The simple math alone rules out the necessary accuracy, making the
rest of the system moot. If you depend on GPS for altitude
information, you may kill yourself while flying. It's as simple as
that.

--
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[Thomas Borchert]

Kontiki,

> contact somebody for help.
>

What kind of help would that be? A refuelling tanker? The
movable-airport squad?

I have a hard time understanding the focus on communication.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Houstondan,

I have missed that other thread, so maybe I am missing something, but
the obvious answer seems to try and keep the plane upright, descend out
of the clouds (if they don't touch the ground) and land at the spot you
find there. A GPS might help in locating a flat spot, but your pilot
wouldn't have time looking at it anyway because he'd be busy keeping
the plane upright.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Brett,

> First and foremost I would fess up and declare an emergency.
>

I just have to ask: Why? What can they do for you in a 10-minute
radius/window that you can't do on your own? Communicatation may be
nice for being found later, but "first and foremost" is to ensure there
will be something worth finding.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-11-12, houstondan > wrote:
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.

Firstly, since the thought experiment says you fell asleep at the
controls, it's reasonable to assume that the aircraft is either a very
stable (and slow) type, or is equipped with an autopilot.

First, I'd reduce power to best endurance, to give more time to think.
Then, get the chart and compare it to the position the GPS says I'm at.
That'll give me a clue where I am, and what obstructions (if any) there
are. Then I'd use the GPS to get to an unobstructed point, and try and
get below the clouds. If there's time and sufficient mental capacity
while flying IFR as a VFR only pilot, call Mayday on 121.5

Once beneath the clouds, look for suitable terrain to make a landing.
Given that there's still a little fuel left, there's a chance for at
least two or three goes at landing - so the chosen landing spot can be
inspected first to make sure there are no deadly obstacles like wires,
and to determine the wind direction (which will be a lot easier when you
can see the ground, and are no longer in the soup). Then make the
appropriate landing attempt depending on the terrain that we have to
hand.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-11-12, Brett Meares > wrote:
>
> Dan: First and foremost I would fess up and declare an emergency.

That should be the last thing - "aviate, navigate, communicate" is the
recommended order! Firstly, fly the plane and figure out where you are
and what obstructions exist below - then if there's still mental
capacity left when flying as a fair weather flyer stuck in IMC, then
worry about turning to 121.5 and calling mayday.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-11-12, birdog > wrote:
> Ten minutes worth of fuel??? Solution: Land an hour ago and refuel.
>
> Not an option? Stand up on the seat and kiss your ass goodbye. After the
> cremation, all the other pilots that have to share the sky with you can
> breathe a sigh of relief.

That's incredibly defeatist - NEVER GIVE UP! If you just accept defeat
like that when faced with an emergency, well, you probably are going to
die. There's no need to 'kiss your ass goodbye' in these situations: you
*still* have enough fuel to do something, even if that's only to get
below the clouds and look for the least worst crash location. You're
more likely to survive (and unhurt) if you fly it till it stops, rather
than just throwing up your hands and giving up. NEVER ever give up.
Never!

The original question posed indicated that the pilot had fallen asleep
at the yoke (perhaps medical incapacitation, or carbon monoxide in the
cabin) and had awoken in IMC with only 10 minutes fuel remaining.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[d&tm]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Houstondan,
>
> I have missed that other thread, so maybe I am missing something, but
> the obvious answer seems to try and keep the plane upright, descend out
> of the clouds (if they don't touch the ground) and land at the spot you
> find there. A GPS might help in locating a flat spot, but your pilot
> wouldn't have time looking at it anyway because he'd be busy keeping
> the plane upright.
>
Agree totally, in this situation you have to concentrate totally using the
basic instruments skills we VFR pilots have. even then statistically our
chances are not good. To be stuffing around asking for help on the radio
would just about reduce those slim chances to nil. As another poster
quoted the old cliche , Aviate, navigate, communicate. But in the situation
of the VFR pilot in IMC the aviate should be in bold capitals! Get out of
the clouds first, then ask for help if you still need it.
terry

[TxSrv]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> If you depend on GPS for altitude information,
> you may kill yourself while flying. It's as simple as
> that.
>

Under VFR? It's simple that you don't know what you're talking
about.

F--

[Newps]

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>>
>> If you depend on GPS for altitude information, you may kill yourself
>> while flying. It's as simple as
>> that.

You get dumber and dumber.

[Mxsmanic]

TxSrv writes:

> Under VFR?

Yes, even under VFR. I said "if you depend on GPS for altitude
information," so it doesn't matter if you are VFR or IFR.

--
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[Capt.Doug]

>"john smith" wrote in message
> I am trying to understand why Andrew and kontiki are the only two with
> the correct answer.

Because Mr. Huck and Mr. birdog haven't had their moment yet. There are
reasons for fuel exhaustion beyond a pilot's control. They should feel lucky
that they can continue with their arrogant self-righteousness. Fly long
enough and s**t happens.

D.

[Marc CYBW]

Well, first I'd like to know where I am as Calgary is VERY close to
Mountains. So, my old 172 had a moving map with topography. But my newish
182 doesn't (yet). So, keep flying on course, declare an emergency to see if
you can raise terminal or whatever to identify you and your location, and if
not, check the coordinates off the GPS against the chart and go to plan B -
forced landing. I figure if I were in the mountains, I would already be dead
of flying into solid object, so a careful descent is in order.

Did this without reading the other replies. This may be interesting.

Marc

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
> new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
> hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
> wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
> take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
> inside the milk bottle.
>
> gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
> gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
> not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
> do??
>
> really.
>
> dan
>

[Travis Marlatte]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> TxSrv writes:
>
>> Under VFR?
>
> Yes, even under VFR. I said "if you depend on GPS for altitude
> information," so it doesn't matter if you are VFR or IFR.
>

That doesn't make any sense in the real world. It might be more important in
a sim where you have no real depth perception to judge height. In the real
world under VFR conditions, it is much more looking out the window to avoid
running into the ground and other planes.

In cruise, it is easy to stay "well above the earth" and it is legally see
and avoid anyway. Specific altitudes are only recommendations to minimize
the chances of running into someone else but it's much looser than lines on
a highway. Even approaching an airport, anyone with a license could judge
pattern altitude and approach to a runway without an instrument.

In a sim, it is probably more difficult. Keep trying, you'll get there.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Mxsmanic]

Travis Marlatte writes:

> That doesn't make any sense in the real world.

Maybe, but I'm not the one who described the scenario.

--
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[Michael Houghton]

Howdy!

In article . com>,
houstondan > wrote:
>rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
>new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
....right. And you're looking for a fight with that subject -- and you
left the door wide open by not qualifying "pilot" at all.

>hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
>wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
>take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
>inside the milk bottle.
>
>gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
>gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
>not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
>do??
>
OK. What is the "core question" you refer to? Your subject and
your exposition do not quite agree.

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix narrowwares
Bowie, MD, USA | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
Proud member of the SCA Internet Whitewash Squad

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:52:44 +0000, Jim Logajan wrote:
> Cut power and deploy the ballistic parachute.

Nawh...

"Eject! Eject! Eject!"

[Timmay]

I'd be curious to have someone explain to me how GPS altitude
information is so inaccurate that I risk my life by setting my
altimeter with it. I have never been totally dependent on a GPS for an
altimeter setting, but I sure as heck would have no qualms about using
it if it came down to it. I am a terrible judge of how high I am off
the ground, and I'd rather put my trust into those five or six
satellites than my two eyes.

> The simple math alone rules out the necessary accuracy, making the
> rest of the system moot. If you depend on GPS for altitude
> information, you may kill yourself while flying. It's as simple as
> that.

[Stealth Pilot]

On 12 Nov 2006 10:13:41 -0800, "houstondan" >
wrote:

>rather than hijack a perfectly good arcane science thread; i'll start a
>new one 'cause the core question is a darn good one.
>
>hypothetical situation: you're a blue sky vfr flyer and somehow you
>wind up in the soup - after having gone 2 hours and 200 miles from your
>take-off point , you wake up from a nice little nap and discover you're
>inside the milk bottle.
>
>gps(not waas) says nearest airport of any kind is 30 minutes away and
>gas-totalizer says the fan stops in 10 minutes.
>
>not mountainous but you ain't in kansas either todo...whatcha gunna
>do??
>
>really.
>
>dan

interesting question.
aviate navigate procrastinate communicate

a more interesting one is "how do you unscramble an egg?"
it was one asked by Richard Collins in his book on flying ifr.
answer is that you cant.
your aircraft has got you through your little beddie byes by keeping
its wings level which is exactly what you need to do to continue
flying. trim the darn thing to fly level or climb slightly.
all ifr problems (all things being equal) start when the wings deviate
from level and you get into an acceleration.
keeping the aircraft unscrambled starts with keeping the wings level.

where is the gps telling you that you are located?
keep the aircraft on a level course and ferret out the wac charts.
whats the terrain altitude?
make sure you are flying higher than it :-)

where is the flattest terrain?
are there any areas of population nearby?
you would want to fly towards either if you only have 10 minutes fuel
left. definitely keep away from terrain higher than you.

you've made it this far in your sleep so it cant be hard going :-)
why panic now?
look around you for the darkest sky.
look around you for the lightest sky.
if you can see lighter sky (cloud) the chances are that it is broken
and sunlight is streaming down through a gap. head for it and you may
be able to find a hole and do a steep descending turn down under the
cloud.

if you have had a look and you are still clueless about what to do
then keep flying straight and level. trim the revs for maximum
endurance/minimum fuel flow and hope that you pop out of the cloud
eventually.
all decisions made in the first minute of a stressful situation are
wrong so take your time in making a decision.
dont give up but do try to formulate a plan withing the next 10
minutes :-)

Stealth Pilot (who is really a pilot)

[Stealth Pilot]

On 17 Nov 2006 05:08:33 -0800, "Timmay" > wrote:

>I'd be curious to have someone explain to me how GPS altitude
>information is so inaccurate that I risk my life by setting my
>altimeter with it. I have never been totally dependent on a GPS for an
>altimeter setting, but I sure as heck would have no qualms about using
>it if it came down to it. I am a terrible judge of how high I am off
>the ground, and I'd rather put my trust into those five or six
>satellites than my two eyes.
>

very easy.
get a big piece of paper.
draw a long narrow triangle, one with a short base length and two
sides extending way way off to a point.

play around with trigonometry and see how much the length of the short
side varies when you calculate its length using the two long sides and
the included angle. notice how much the length of the short side
varies with tiny variations in the angle.

you have a similar sort of problem with the time intervals making a
triangle with the times being the long sides and the altitude being
the short side.

I've seen GPS altitudes while flying which were exactly the same
height as my altimeter was indicating. I've also regularly seen the
altitude up to 2,000ft out and one one flight it was calculating my
height as 5,500ft when I was actually doing a 500ft run along a
deserted beach.

fools use gps heights but they are no stupider than the software
engineers who made them available in the gps units in the first place.

Stealth Pilot
(garmin gps 2 plus user who never uses the gps height)

[Mxsmanic]

Timmay writes:

> I'd be curious to have someone explain to me how GPS altitude
> information is so inaccurate that I risk my life by setting my
> altimeter with it.

A safer policy is to ask people to prove that GPS is accurate enough
to bet your life on it.

--
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[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Timmay writes:
>
>> I'd be curious to have someone explain to me how GPS altitude
>> information is so inaccurate that I risk my life by setting my
>> altimeter with it.
>
> A safer policy is to ask people to prove that GPS is accurate enough
> to bet your life on it.
>

We have the FAA certifies GPS receivers for Instrument approaches for both
horizontal and vertical guidance.

[TxSrv]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Timmay writes:
>
>> I'd be curious to have someone explain to me how GPS altitude
>> information is so inaccurate that I risk my life by setting my
>> altimeter with it.
>
> A safer policy is to ask people to prove that GPS is accurate enough
> to bet your life on it.

You have to mean VFR, since IFR requires an altimeter. Thus your
statement is ignorant hogwash. VFR is safe in good visibility
without even an altimeter.

F--

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> We have the FAA certifies GPS receivers for Instrument approaches for both
> horizontal and vertical guidance.

Which categories of instrument approaches, and with or without WAAS or
LAAS?

--
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[Mxsmanic]

TxSrv writes:

> You have to mean VFR, since IFR requires an altimeter.

No. Some people assert that GPS can provide the altimeter function.

--
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