flying to Burning Man

[Sylvain]

out of curiosity, since I have a group of friends who might be
interested; has anyone out there flown to Burning Man? I would
be curious about the logistics involved (what amount of stuff,
water, etc.) you were able to carry -- was it sufficient for a
half decent/confortable stay? -- I know, there are info
on BM web site, but I would prefer some first hand and possibly
critical -- which the web site is not -- info on the matter);

In particular; I have found many pictures online of the event
itself, but very few of the airfield proper, tie down/aircraft
themselves; it might help to get the picture so to speak of what's
involved, tie down conditions, etc.

Note that I am not debating whether the whole thing is a good
idea or not :-) -- still opened to discussion with said friends --
just trying to figure out the implementation details...

--Sylvain

[Ben Hallert]

Ooh, interesting question. I'm also curious about this, what kind of
surface does the airport have? How long?

One thing, any plane parked on the Playa would need lots of protection
against the fine dust and high winds, I bet it could craze
plexi-screens pretty quickly.

[Peter Duniho]

"Ben Hallert" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> One thing, any plane parked on the Playa would need lots of protection
> against the fine dust and high winds, I bet it could craze
> plexi-screens pretty quickly.

Yeah, no kidding. Parking my plane four days at Las Vegas, it wound up
covered in desert dirt, more dust than anything. That's a large, paved
airport. I can't imagine what it'd be like sitting actually out IN all that
dust.

A cockpit cover would help protect the windows, but a) dust will still find
its way underneath, and b) the rest of the plane will suffer regardless. :(

Maybe bring a really big roll of plastic, and just wrap up the whole plane
after you've parked? You could probably even make it an art project. :)

Pete

[Ben Hallert]

Ah, I found the info:

http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/airport/faq_air.html

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
.. :(
>
> Maybe bring a really big roll of plastic, and just wrap up the whole plane
> after you've parked? You could probably even make it an art project. :)
>
> Pete
Except at Burning Man you'd be expected to light it!

Karl

[Peter Duniho]

"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
> Except at Burning Man you'd be expected to light it!

Nah...they have lots of stuff there that doesn't blow up. It's not
mandatory, just encouraged. :)

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> Maybe bring a really big roll of plastic, and just wrap up the whole plane
> after you've parked?

Shrink wrap! <G>

[gpsman]

Ben Hallert wrote:
> Ah, I found the info:
>
> http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/airport/faq_air.html

>From same:

Q. Is it safe to land my Beechna Pipermman Super-Duper-High-Flyer on
the playa?

A. The playa surface is suitable for anything from a tiny-wheeled
Vari-eze to tail-draggers with tundra tires to brand new turbo-charged
Mooneys to C-130s. This is the surface on which a car went faster than
the speed of sound. The space shuttle could land here.

That seems just a tad optimistic and misleading, IMO.

I've never ventured into that particular area but I know alkalai desert
flats can look quite solid and actually be a crusted over bog that will
swallow a small car up to its axles in very rapid fashion. The Black
Rock Desert would not be an area where I would assume I may land
anywhere without hesitation.

A 7000' landing strip appears to be at 40.73515, -119.2355
-----

- gpsman

[Sylvain]

gpsman wrote:
>> http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/airport/faq_air.html
> ...
> That seems just a tad optimistic and misleading, IMO.

That the thing about the whole web site: it seems a tad
optimistic. For instance, the part about camping out in the
desert, in summer, with a crowd of, shall we say, colorful
characters, being all rosy and neat and nothing to worry
about is one thing that made me a bit suspicious; hence my
request for first hand accounts :-)

--Sylvain

[Ben Hallert]

Sylvain wrote:
> That the thing about the whole web site: it seems a tad
> optimistic.

That was my first thought, but some of the following excerpts offer a
different view:

http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/airport/index.html
" This is a warning! Read it!

Flying in mountainous desert regions is dangerous. Don't do it. Stay at
home with a cold drink and watch the event on television. If you choose
to disregard this sensible advice, take all reasonable and unreasonable
safety precautions. Read all of the information and advice in the links
above. Attend a seminar on mountain flying. Practice with an instructor
at a hot and high airport near you.

The desert is treacherous; winds are hellacious, storms are sudden and
violent, density altitude is high, and hospitals far away. The landing
surface is unpaved and safe landing conditions are not guaranteed. You
are entirely responsible for your own safety and that of your
passengers."

There appears to be a mailing list of Burning Man aviators where
answers to all of our questions would probably be available.
https://lists.burningman.com/mailman/listinfo/aviators-list

They also have a page on specific flying challenges in the desert:
http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/airport/flying.html

This page also discusses the quality of the ground. It appears that
the runway area is carefully inspected and chosen to avoid the "sinking
buick" situation described elsewhere in the thread. With the big crowd
of planes their photos show, it doesn't look like the hacked together
amateur-fest I was expecting. UNICOM advisories, ground crew, NOTAMs,
it looks pretty promising.

I've been wanting to attend, but the 10 hour drive has been a bit of a
barrier. The 1.5 hour flight, on the other hand, suddenly seems pretty
reasonable. Well, I've got a year to get ready.

[gatt]

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
>
> out of curiosity, since I have a group of friends who might be
> interested; has anyone out there flown to Burning Man? I would
> be curious about the logistics involved (what amount of stuff,
> water, etc.)

E-mail me and I'll hook you up with the mailing list and answer any other
questions you might have.. Last year an AN-2 landed there.
gatt @ jugger[remove]bot.com

There's an entire discussion group about this. It's very pilot-oriented,
technical and there is a diverse range of pilots there with many years of
experience.

> In particular; I have found many pictures online of the event itself,
> but very few of the airfield proper, tie down/aircraft themselves; it
> might help to >get the picture so to speak of what's involved, tie down
> conditions, etc.

> Note that I am not debating whether the whole thing is a good idea or not
> :-)

I cannot overstate or exaggerate the magnificence and joy of the experience
or the awe that it inspires regardless of your spiritual, political or
social values.

-c

[gatt]

"Ben Hallert" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Ooh, interesting question. I'm also curious about this, what kind of
> surface does the airport have? How long?

It's very hard-packed dry clay...generally, flat as a pool table and about
as hard. Runway length is not a factor. It more or less stretches to the
horizon.

> One thing, any plane parked on the Playa would need lots of protection
> against the fine dust and high winds, I bet it could craze
> plexi-screens pretty quickly.

There's a Burning Man aviator forum you would want to talk to about it, but
they know the tricks. There are planes there that fly daily year after
year.

Do not be swayed by the myth that everybody there are naked hippies on
drugs. (Hippies, as I like to tell people, don't drive around in jacked up
Road Warrior trucks shooting flamethrowers into the air.)

-c

[gatt]

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
>>> http://www.burningman.com/on_the_playa/airport/faq_air.html
>> ...
>> That seems just a tad optimistic and misleading, IMO.
>
> That the thing about the whole web site: it seems a tad optimistic.

It puts on the best face the way Disneyland.com would, but...

Imagine being in a temporary city where everybody is positive emphasis is on
self-reliance and helping others, there are no garbage cans because by and
large the people it attracts don't believe in litter, and there are no ATMs
or concession stands and the only things for sale are ice and coffee
(fundraiser for the local 4-H and a retirement community.)

The $250 ticket keeps out the fratboy riff-raff and Girls Gone Wild
mentality. The heat and dust keep out the casual tourists and wimps, the
police keep the crime well under control, and once you're there there's
nothing to buy, but people spend thousands, tens or hundreds of thousands of
dollars on art that has no place in the real world (largely because it's
pointy, metal, dangerous, shoots fire, etc.) There is no overall message,
agenda, religion, anti-religion, leader, or point: It's what you bring to
it, what you make it, and what you choose to take from it.

> For instance, the part about camping out in the desert, in summer, with
> a crowd of, shall we say, colorful characters,

I can't even tell you without sounding like some sort of gushy, preachy
born-again cultist idiot.

Here's the city from space. The airfield is on the lower end extending to
the northeast relative to the photo. The open area between the center (the
man) and the circular city is about a half-mile across.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2005-Black-Rock-City.jpg


-c

[gatt]

"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...

> Except at Burning Man you'd be expected to light it!

I'm not sure anybody's burned and airplane there, at least in quite awhile.
Check this out, though. It's a giant 2-axis pendulum fire sculture that is
moved around with homemade pulse jets by remote control. He gets the
pendulum moving, balancing it in the air, etc, by firing off the jets.
Naturally, viewers tend to stay way back.


http://www.zaphodburns2005.org/ZB2005WebAlbum/photos/photo5.html

[gatt]

"Ben Hallert" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> With the big crowd of planes their photos show, it doesn't look like the
> hacked together amateur-fest I was expecting.

Negative, sir. The airstrip isn't established by the Burning Man
organization, it's done each year by the pilots themselves; volunteers fly
out there two weeks in advance and spend those scorching days grooming the
surface, setting up markers and the UNICOM and testing the conditions, and
they're out there for a month afterward cleaning up every boa feather,
pistacio shell, cigarette butt and bottle cap in he desert. The BLM
inspects the event overall and their permits are provisional upon passing
the inspection. Those pilots fly people around all day long (everything
from experimentals to a KingAir and an An-2....they're trying to get
approval to bring in a DC-3 next year) so the "spaceport" is a product of
their love for flying and desire to preserve their own airplanes.

The only serious aviation accidents they had out there have involved
trespassers or idiot hotdoggers who violated the rules and tried to land at
night.

> I've been wanting to attend, but the 10 hour drive has been a bit of a
> barrier. The 1.5 hour flight, on the other hand, suddenly seems pretty
> reasonable. Well, I've got a year to get ready.

If you have any questions about any of it from an aviator's perspective (ie,
non deadhead/raver/hippie/college partier), e-mail me at
and I'll help you. In 2005 a dozen friends and I
built the Star Castle and Infinite Improbability Root Beer Saloon and served
16 kegs of homemade rootbeer (free, of course) during the afternoons. I
ended up being too busy to make it out to the airstrip.

The aviation community has already planning for next year.

The 10 hour drive, by the way, is nothing. People return year after year
from all over the world and once you've walked through Black Rock City at
sunset, it's clear why. The -only- reason we didn't go this year is
because last year while we were there, my wife and decided after seven years
to take the next step in our life and have a child.

-c

[EridanMan]

Great Thread, I was wondering about exactly this topic just the other
day (planning for next year).

I've heard that a pilot's best best is to barter with someone coming up
in a ground vehicle and offer a flight or two in exchange for having
someone bring their supplies up (no way I can fit a weeks worth of
supplies into my PA-28-140)... Anyone have any experience with this?



On Nov 12, 7:28 pm, Sylvain > wrote:
> out of curiosity, since I have a group of friends who might be
> interested; has anyone out there flown to Burning Man? I would
> be curious about the logistics involved (what amount of stuff,
> water, etc.) you were able to carry -- was it sufficient for a
> half decent/confortable stay? -- I know, there are info
> on BM web site, but I would prefer some first hand and possibly
> critical -- which the web site is not -- info on the matter);
>
> In particular; I have found many pictures online of the event
> itself, but very few of the airfield proper, tie down/aircraft
> themselves; it might help to get the picture so to speak of what's
> involved, tie down conditions, etc.
>
> Note that I am not debating whether the whole thing is a good
> idea or not :-) -- still opened to discussion with said friends --
> just trying to figure out the implementation details...
>
> --Sylvain

[gatt]

"EridanMan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Great Thread, I was wondering about exactly this topic just the other day
> (planning for next year).
>
> I've heard that a pilot's best best is to barter with someone coming up in
> a ground vehicle and offer a flight or two in exchange for having
> someone bring their supplies up (no way I can fit a weeks worth of
> supplies into my PA-28-140)... Anyone have any experience with this?

That's the way many or most do it, and it wouldn't be difficult at all. In
fact, if you're around or coming through Oregon I might be able to help, so
stay in touch.

The biggest things are water, shelter, rebar stakes, food and and a bicycle.
It bills itself as a survivalist to limit the freeloader types who aren't
willing to take care of themselves. You pretty much need a gallon of water
per person per day. The event is HUGE and ever-changing and you can't see
all of it, so a cheap mountain bike is the way to get around. I bought a
$10 mountain bike from a thrift store and detailed it to look like an old
Stearman USAAC trainer; blue, with yellow forks and handlebars, red and
white tail, etc.

If it's your first trip to Burning Man, people will generally bend over
backwards to help you if you need anything and pilots there are pretty much
treated like rock stars.

Here's what we built in 2005, which is why I didn't volunteer for the
Unicom, etc: http://www.zaphodburns2005.org. We put that sucker up in a
40-mph sandstorm and took turns serving root beer all week. It worked out
perfectly because the camp across the road (Stanford marching band alumni)
brought 5,000 lbs of pulled pork and two giant barbeques and gave away
sandwiches every day, and the people next to them had a pizza kitchen going
in some sort of army tent.

Above all, believe the hype.

-c

[zatatime]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:17:39 -0800, "gatt"
> wrote:

>If it's your first trip to Burning Man, people will generally bend over
>backwards to help you if you need anything and pilots there are pretty much
>treated like rock stars.


What could a first timer have to offer the group? I'd be willing to
fly 2 or 3 hours a day, but without fuel that would be an issue too.

Really cool to see someone in our group does this regularly.

Thanks for the insight.
z

[gatt]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...

>>If it's your first trip to Burning Man, people will generally bend over
>>backwards to help you if

> What could a first timer have to offer the group? I'd be willing to fly 2
> or 3 hours a day, but without fuel that would be an issue too.

On the Burning Man aviator's list they get together beforehand and do a mass
fuel order. Somebody trucks the order in in barrels and they distribute it
privately among those who ordered it.

As to what a first time could have to offer, just showing up is enough and
the rest you can figure out on the fly. People work really hard to just to
be there, and they go year after year, and very often they describe taking a
plane ride as the their single greatest experience at Burning Man ever. If
you had an airplane and were willing to take people when you felt up for it,
that would be huge for them. Much the flying is done in the morning and
early afternoon before the dust and hot afternoon air come up.

Here's an outstanding photo gallery, but it might not be safe for viewing at
work: http://www.flickr.com/photos/loupiote/sets/432859/ It has some
aerial and and airplane photos which give you an idea of the terrain.

-c

[zatatime]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 09:35:00 -0800, "gatt"
> wrote:

>Here's an outstanding photo gallery, but it might not be safe for viewing at
>work: http://www.flickr.com/photos/loupiote/sets/432859/ It has some
>aerial and and airplane photos which give you an idea of the terrain.


Thanks for the link, and the info.

z