Biggest Glider Ever Launched via Winch?

[[email protected]]

In our winch clinic last week, the paraglider folks we shared the dry
lake with, seemed surprised we could get something as big as a Blanik
off the ground with a long steel cable.

Their tandem instructor asked our CFIG, "what was the largest gross
weight sailplane ever ground launched". Never really thought about it
before.

Received my winch checkout in PA in a 1,200 lb. Slingsby T-53. Lots of
airfoil, climbed great.

Starting a "can you top this" thread....

Thanks,

Michael

[Sarah]

I don't know about winch launch, but this looks like just an exciting
launch, with a 7500 lb gross wt. glider:

http://www.pointvista.com/WW2GliderPilots/gliderretrieval.htm

wrote:
> In our winch clinic last week, the paraglider folks we shared the dry
> lake with, seemed surprised we could get something as big as a Blanik
> off the ground with a long steel cable.
>
> Their tandem instructor asked our CFIG, "what was the largest gross
> weight sailplane ever ground launched". Never really thought about it
> before.
>

[Bill Daniels]

A starting point would be the Tost weak links for winch. The strongest is
the black 1000 Kg-force link used by gliders like the ASK-21, ASH-25.
Typically, the weak link is about 1.1 - 1.4 times the gross weight of the
glider.

The largest GLIDER was the Messerschmitt 321 gigant but I doubt they winched
it. http://www.waffenhq.de/flugzeuge/me321.html

Bill Daniels

" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> In our winch clinic last week, the paraglider folks we shared the dry
> lake with, seemed surprised we could get something as big as a Blanik
> off the ground with a long steel cable.
>
> Their tandem instructor asked our CFIG, "what was the largest gross
> weight sailplane ever ground launched". Never really thought about it
> before.
>
> Received my winch checkout in PA in a 1,200 lb. Slingsby T-53. Lots of
> airfoil, climbed great.
>
> Starting a "can you top this" thread....
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael
>

[JS]

Sarah wrote:
> I don't know about winch launch, but this looks like just an exciting
> launch, with a 7500 lb gross wt. glider:
>

Also have a look at the C-141 towing a QF-106, known as the Eclipse
project or "Dope on a Rope". Doubt I'd want to winch that one!
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/History/Publications/PDF/Eclipse.pdf

Has anybody "step-towed" a sailplane? Using a pay-out winch in a
truck, tow the length of the runway. As the truck turns around and
winch operator keeps the slack under control, the glider does a wide
turn. The truck then heads back down the runway, paying out more line.
Jim

[BT]

Jim, Gary Boggs (Oregon?) does the payout winch system with the 2-33, but I
have not seen him turn around, I don't think he has room on the airport for
that.

BT

"JS" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Sarah wrote:
>> I don't know about winch launch, but this looks like just an exciting
>> launch, with a 7500 lb gross wt. glider:
>>
>
> Also have a look at the C-141 towing a QF-106, known as the Eclipse
> project or "Dope on a Rope". Doubt I'd want to winch that one!
> http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/History/Publications/PDF/Eclipse.pdf
>
> Has anybody "step-towed" a sailplane? Using a pay-out winch in a
> truck, tow the length of the runway. As the truck turns around and
> winch operator keeps the slack under control, the glider does a wide
> turn. The truck then heads back down the runway, paying out more line.
> Jim
>

[Frank Whiteley]

JS wrote:
> Sarah wrote:
> > I don't know about winch launch, but this looks like just an exciting
> > launch, with a 7500 lb gross wt. glider:
> >
>
> Also have a look at the C-141 towing a QF-106, known as the Eclipse
> project or "Dope on a Rope". Doubt I'd want to winch that one!
> http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/History/Publications/PDF/Eclipse.pdf
>
> Has anybody "step-towed" a sailplane? Using a pay-out winch in a
> truck, tow the length of the runway. As the truck turns around and
> winch operator keeps the slack under control, the glider does a wide
> turn. The truck then heads back down the runway, paying out more line.
> Jim
This was presented at one of the SSA conventions. The video included a
demo of the stability of the system as the F106 pilot was clearly
waving both hands to the camera.

(BTW, you really should come to a convention, you don't know what you
might be missing)

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

Jim asked "Has anybody "step-towed" a sailplane? Using a pay-out winch
in a
truck, tow the length of the runway. As the truck turns around and
winch operator keeps the slack under control, the glider does a wide
turn. The truck then heads back down the runway, paying out more line."

Step launches, or "kiting" has been done by winch and tow car, but not
using the way Jim suggests as far as I know. In strong winds, the
car/truck can just stop, or even track slowly back; the winch can pay
out and then wind in again. It is similar to getting a kite higher
without running, by successively pulling on the string a bit and then
letting it out a lot.

The closest we came to Jim's method at North Weald in the old days of
truck tows was, in a cross wind, tow up the runway and turn into wind
at the end onto the peri track. The glider would have drifted downwind
from the main runway, meanwhile, so could be towed a bit further as the
truck continued into the cross wind. It did not gain much extra,
however - I think the main benefit came from not having to slow down
and stop within the length of the main runway.

Chris N.

[[email protected]]

I have not turned around at our airport during a tow, but we did it out
at the Alvord Desert! We made a very wide turn and ended the launch
back at camp where we had started. We regularly got to 2000ft to
2500ft, without having to turn around, but we have miles of dry lake to
use. The tow line back releases as soon as there is any slack, so I
can't see any way to turn around or back up at our airport, but I tried
something new the other day that did work very well. Given that we
have a set distance to tow here, I figured that if I aggressively
zigzagged the sailplane on the way up, I would effectively get a longer
tow. It worked very well and I got higher than I've ever gotten at
this airport, 1500ft agl. Our weather has not given us another chance
to work on perfecting this technique, but I think with good
communication and coordination between the pilot, the driver and the
winch operator, and a stronger wind, I just might be able to get as
high as 2000ft agl.

And on the subject of towing heavy gliders, I have winched our 2-32
with 3 people in it, I think we were probably close to 1400lbs, and it
worked surprisingly well.

[[email protected]]

I have not turned around at our airport during a tow, but we did it out
at the Alvord Desert! We made a very wide turn and ended the launch
back at camp where we had started. We regularly got to 2000ft to
2500ft without having to turn around, but we have miles of dry lake to
use. The tow line back releases as soon as there is any slack, so I
can't see any way to turn around or back up at our airport, but I tried
something new the other day that did work very well. Given that we
have a set distance to tow here, I figured that if I aggressively
zigzagged the sailplane on the way up, I would effectively get a longer
tow. It worked very well and I got higher than I've ever gotten at
this airport, 1500ft agl. Our weather has not given us another chance
to work on perfecting this technique, but I think with good
communication and coordination between the pilot, the driver and the
winch operator, and a stronger wind, I just might be able to get as
high as 2000ft agl.

And on the subject of towing heavy gliders, I have winched our 2-32
with 3 people in it, I think we were probably close to 1400lbs, and it
worked surprisingly well.

[[email protected]]

I have not turned around at our airport during a tow, but we did it out
at the Alvord Desert! We made a very wide turn and ended the launch
back at camp where we had started. We regularly got to 2000ft to
2500ft, without having to turn around, but we have miles of dry lake to
use. The tow line back releases as soon as there is any slack, so I
can't see any way to turn around or back up at our airport, but I tried
something new the other day that did work very well. Given that we
have a set distance to tow here, I figured that if I aggressively
zigzagged the sailplane on the way up, I would effectively get a longer
tow. It worked very well and I got higher than I've ever gotten at
this airport, 1500ft agl. Our weather has not given us another chance
to work on perfecting this technique, but I think with good
communication and coordination between the pilot, the driver and the
winch operator, and a stronger wind, I just might be able to get as
high as 2000ft agl.

And on the subject of towing heavy gliders, I have winched our 2-32
with 3 people in it, I think we were probably close to 1400lbs, and it
worked surprisingly well.

[Thorsten Föge]

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>
> The largest GLIDER was the Messerschmitt 321 gigant but I doubt they
> winched it. http://www.waffenhq.de/flugzeuge/me321.html
>

Hi Daniel,
is not correct. The largest glider in the II.WW was the Mamut, built by
Junkers.

Regards

Thorsten

[Steve Hill]

I like ie when gary says things three times...


Steve.

[Steve Hill]

I like it when Gary says things three times...

Steve

[Steve Hill]

I like it when Gary says things three times...


(sorry...I couldn't help myself)



Sierra Hotel.

[[email protected]]

Yea, check this out Daniel:

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/JUNKERSJu322MammutPage.htm


BTW, Bill, did you ever talk with the new owner of my Lark about your
super fantastic rigging aids? If not, please send me your new email
address. The Lark is no "Mammut" but as you know the wings are a tad
heavy. I trailered it out of no less than 5 fields last year and
rigged it countless other times flying at Region 7 and XC training.
He's planning to fly it at Region 7 next year and would appreciate your
system. (so would I as I may be the back seater again).

Thorsten Föge wrote:
> "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >
> > The largest GLIDER was the Messerschmitt 321 gigant but I doubt they
> > winched it. http://www.waffenhq.de/flugzeuge/me321.html
> >
>
> Hi Daniel,
> is not correct. The largest glider in the II.WW was the Mamut, built by
> Junkers.
>
> Regards
>
> Thorsten

[Bill Daniels]

I'm going to have to retrieve the CAD drawings for the Lark solo rigging
system from an old hard drive and clean them up so others can read the
drawings.

Bill


> wrote in message
ups.com...
Yea, check this out Daniel:

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/JUNKERSJu322MammutPage.htm


BTW, Bill, did you ever talk with the new owner of my Lark about your
super fantastic rigging aids? If not, please send me your new email
address. The Lark is no "Mammut" but as you know the wings are a tad
heavy. I trailered it out of no less than 5 fields last year and
rigged it countless other times flying at Region 7 and XC training.
He's planning to fly it at Region 7 next year and would appreciate your
system. (so would I as I may be the back seater again).

Thorsten Föge wrote:
> "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> >
> > The largest GLIDER was the Messerschmitt 321 gigant but I doubt they
> > winched it. http://www.waffenhq.de/flugzeuge/me321.html
> >
>
> Hi Daniel,
> is not correct. The largest glider in the II.WW was the Mamut, built by
> Junkers.
>
> Regards
>
> Thorsten

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

wrote:
> In our winch clinic last week, the paraglider folks we shared the dry
> lake with, seemed surprised we could get something as big as a Blanik
> off the ground with a long steel cable.
>
> Their tandem instructor asked our CFIG, "what was the largest gross
> weight sailplane ever ground launched". Never really thought about it
> before.
>
I've seen ASH-25s winched two-up, no ballast. There's a small amount of
wing bending.....


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[MaD]

Martin Gregorie schrieb:

> wrote:
> > In our winch clinic last week, the paraglider folks we shared the dry
> > lake with, seemed surprised we could get something as big as a Blanik
> > off the ground with a long steel cable.
> >
> > Their tandem instructor asked our CFIG, "what was the largest gross
> > weight sailplane ever ground launched". Never really thought about it
> > before.
> >
> I've seen ASH-25s winched two-up, no ballast. There's a small amount of
> wing bending.....
>
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

Have piloted ASH25 at 760kg (1675lb). 1000m cable, launched to 400m. No
wind. No problem.
Have also seen a Nimbus 4DM been winched at our field. I believe that
has about 800kg without water?

Regards
Marcel

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> I have not turned around at our airport during a tow, but we did it out
> at the Alvord Desert! We made a very wide turn and ended the launch
> back at camp where we had started. We regularly got to 2000ft to
> 2500ft, without having to turn around, but we have miles of dry lake to
> use. The tow line back releases as soon as there is any slack, so I
> can't see any way to turn around or back up at our airport, but I tried
> something new the other day that did work very well. Given that we
> have a set distance to tow here, I figured that if I aggressively
> zigzagged the sailplane on the way up, I would effectively get a longer
> tow. It worked very well and I got higher than I've ever gotten at
> this airport, 1500ft agl. Our weather has not given us another chance
> to work on perfecting this technique, but I think with good
> communication and coordination between the pilot, the driver and the
> winch operator, and a stronger wind, I just might be able to get as
> high as 2000ft agl.
>
> And on the subject of towing heavy gliders, I have winched our 2-32
> with 3 people in it, I think we were probably close to 1400lbs, and it
> worked surprisingly well.

Winch launched a 2-32 off of a nose-hook or CG hook?

[[email protected]]

We winched our 2-32 from the stock hook, which is back from the nose
about 3 feet. You end up stalling the elevator a little at the top but
it still works well.

Gary Boggs

www.nwskysports.com

The 2-33 has a very similar hook, watch the video on my web site, or
come to Oregon and get signed off!

[Bert Willing]

I've been taking off with the SB10 in 29m on a winch several times (830kg).
The flexing of the wings was amazing.

"MaD" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Martin Gregorie schrieb:
>
>> wrote:
>> > In our winch clinic last week, the paraglider folks we shared the dry
>> > lake with, seemed surprised we could get something as big as a Blanik
>> > off the ground with a long steel cable.
>> >
>> > Their tandem instructor asked our CFIG, "what was the largest gross
>> > weight sailplane ever ground launched". Never really thought about it
>> > before.
>> >
>> I've seen ASH-25s winched two-up, no ballast. There's a small amount of
>> wing bending.....
>>
>>
>> --
>> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>> org |
>
> Have piloted ASH25 at 760kg (1675lb). 1000m cable, launched to 400m. No
> wind. No problem.
> Have also seen a Nimbus 4DM been winched at our field. I believe that
> has about 800kg without water?
>
> Regards
> Marcel
>

[GM]

wrote:
> In our winch clinic last week, the paraglider folks we shared the dry
> lake with, seemed surprised we could get something as big as a Blanik
> off the ground with a long steel cable.
>
> Their tandem instructor asked our CFIG, "what was the largest gross
> weight sailplane ever ground launched". Never really thought about it
> before.
>
> Received my winch checkout in PA in a 1,200 lb. Slingsby T-53. Lots of
> airfoil, climbed great.
>
> Starting a "can you top this" thread....
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael

Go to http://www.luftarchiv.de/ and select 'English'. Then select from
the main menue Misc. Apparatus and scroll down to the photo showing a
He-111 being 'winch-launched'. Not exactly a glider but nevertheless, a
clever idea to get a power plane airborne quickly and much cheaper than
with RATO or JATO devices.

Uli Neumann

[Frank Whiteley]

GM wrote:
> wrote:
> > In our winch clinic last week, the paraglider folks we shared the dry
> > lake with, seemed surprised we could get something as big as a Blanik
> > off the ground with a long steel cable.
> >
> > Their tandem instructor asked our CFIG, "what was the largest gross
> > weight sailplane ever ground launched". Never really thought about it
> > before.
> >
> > Received my winch checkout in PA in a 1,200 lb. Slingsby T-53. Lots of
> > airfoil, climbed great.
> >
> > Starting a "can you top this" thread....
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Michael
>
> Go to http://www.luftarchiv.de/ and select 'English'. Then select from
> the main menue Misc. Apparatus and scroll down to the photo showing a
> He-111 being 'winch-launched'. Not exactly a glider but nevertheless, a
> clever idea to get a power plane airborne quickly and much cheaper than
> with RATO or JATO devices.
>
> Uli Neumann
Didn't find this, but interesting things under 'catapult vessels'

Frank Whiteley

[Chris Reed[_1_]]

The photo is under "Haul-Proceeds", which is about glider towing and
related matters. It's unusual to see a twin-engined aircraft being winch
launched, but the picture suggests it worked OK, at least as far as
transitioning into the climb.

Frank Whiteley wrote:
>> Go to http://www.luftarchiv.de/ and select 'English'. Then select from
>> the main menue Misc. Apparatus and scroll down to the photo showing a
>> He-111 being 'winch-launched'. Not exactly a glider but nevertheless, a
>> clever idea to get a power plane airborne quickly and much cheaper than
>> with RATO or JATO devices.
>>
>> Uli Neumann
> Didn't find this, but interesting things under 'catapult vessels'
>
> Frank Whiteley
>

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

GM wrote:
> Go to http://www.luftarchiv.de/ and select 'English'. Then select from
> the main menue Misc. Apparatus and scroll down to the photo showing a
> He-111 being 'winch-launched'. Not exactly a glider but nevertheless, a
> clever idea to get a power plane airborne quickly and much cheaper than
> with RATO or JATO devices.
>
Thats a great site for gliders and Luftwaffe aircraft in general. Thanks
for posting the reference.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[GM]

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> GM wrote:
> > Go to http://www.luftarchiv.de/ and select 'English'. Then select from
> > the main menue Misc. Apparatus and scroll down to the photo showing a
> > He-111 being 'winch-launched'. Not exactly a glider but nevertheless, a
> > clever idea to get a power plane airborne quickly and much cheaper than
> > with RATO or JATO devices.
> >
> Thats a great site for gliders and Luftwaffe aircraft in general. Thanks
> for posting the reference.
>
> --
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org |

You are welcome! I find this site very educational and factual, without
the usual political ballast.

Uli Neumann