Toe in or toe out?? For Taildraggers

[DonMorrisey]

Howdy.

I'm at the point in my project where I'm lining up the landing gear.
Based on what I've found from various sources there seems to be many
schools of thought asto whether the main gear on a taildragger should
toe in or out and how much????

Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say on
this topic. Thanks. Don....

[DonMorrisey]

>
> Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say on
> this topic. Thanks. Don..

OK,
Guess I should have checked the archives first. Now that I have...it
seems Toe Out is the condition I want, however ther was not a lot of
info on "how much". Any thoughts on that? thanks. Don....

[Morgans[_2_]]

"DonMorrisey" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>>
>> Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say on
>> this topic. Thanks. Don..
>
> OK,
> Guess I should have checked the archives first. Now that I have...it
> seems Toe Out is the condition I want, however ther was not a lot of
> info on "how much". Any thoughts on that? thanks. Don....
>
Just enough to barely measure it. Like one or two degrees.

You are really just insuring that there will not be any toe in.
--
Jim in NC

[Jarhead]

"DonMorrisey" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Howdy.
|
| I'm at the point in my project where I'm lining up the landing gear.
| Based on what I've found from various sources there seems to be many
| schools of thought asto whether the main gear on a taildragger should
| toe in or out and how much????
|
| Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say
on
| this topic. Thanks. Don....
|

I know you have gotten responses supporting toe out on the main gear
which is just the opposite of what I was told by a Cessna A&P some years
ago.

His explanation, as I remember it, is that a slight amount of toe in is
desirable because as the aiplane started to groundloop, say to the left,
the left wheel would be more in line with forward motion and the right
wheel would be causing drag by the sideways scuffing action. Toe out
would reverse the above which would contribute to the loss of control.

Here is a 1948 Cessna service letter supporting toe in from the factory:
http://www.cessna120-140.org/Library/serviceletter/SL_Cessna_56.htm

--
Jarhead



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[J.Kahn]

Jarhead wrote:
> "DonMorrisey" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> | Howdy.
> |
> | I'm at the point in my project where I'm lining up the landing gear.
> | Based on what I've found from various sources there seems to be many
> | schools of thought asto whether the main gear on a taildragger should
> | toe in or out and how much????
> |
> | Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say
> on
> | this topic. Thanks. Don....
> |
>
> I know you have gotten responses supporting toe out on the main gear
> which is just the opposite of what I was told by a Cessna A&P some years
> ago.
>
> His explanation, as I remember it, is that a slight amount of toe in is
> desirable because as the aiplane started to groundloop, say to the left,
> the left wheel would be more in line with forward motion and the right
> wheel would be causing drag by the sideways scuffing action. Toe out
> would reverse the above which would contribute to the loss of control.
>
> Here is a 1948 Cessna service letter supporting toe in from the factory:
> http://www.cessna120-140.org/Library/serviceletter/SL_Cessna_56.htm
>


I agree with the toe out crowd. Toe in results, in a swing, in the
wheel with the most weight on it, the one on the outboard side of a
turn, getting most of the bite which tends to tighten the turn thereby
creating a certain amount of directional instability. Toe out has a
small "crosswind gear" effect. There, the wheel on the outboard side of
the turn, as it gets the majority of traction due to weight transfer,
tends to steer the airplane out of the turn.

Tony Bengalis talked about this and the number of tail dragger
homebuilts that were sold by their builders due to squirrely behavior
because the owner put toe in.

In the Cessna SL they are concerned with tire wear and their goal is to
get neutral toe in while rolling to maximize tire life. I think that
they calculate that the rolling drag pulling back on the tires tends to
twist them in a toe out direction normally and therefore a slight amount
of toe in is set which is removed as the airplane rolls so the wheels
are more or less neutral.

Although the goal generally seems to be to achieve neutral wheel
alignment, I think a small amount of toe out is desirable on more short
coupled aircraft that need all the stabilizing help they can get.

John K

[Alan Baker]

In article >,
"Jarhead" > wrote:

> "DonMorrisey" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> | Howdy.
> |
> | I'm at the point in my project where I'm lining up the landing gear.
> | Based on what I've found from various sources there seems to be many
> | schools of thought asto whether the main gear on a taildragger should
> | toe in or out and how much????
> |
> | Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say
> on
> | this topic. Thanks. Don....
> |
>
> I know you have gotten responses supporting toe out on the main gear
> which is just the opposite of what I was told by a Cessna A&P some years
> ago.
>
> His explanation, as I remember it, is that a slight amount of toe in is
> desirable because as the aiplane started to groundloop, say to the left,
> the left wheel would be more in line with forward motion and the right
> wheel would be causing drag by the sideways scuffing action. Toe out
> would reverse the above which would contribute to the loss of control.
>
> Here is a 1948 Cessna service letter supporting toe in from the factory:
> http://www.cessna120-140.org/Library/serviceletter/SL_Cessna_56.htm

As someone who's read quite a lot on (land) vehicle dynamics, I don't
see how that can hold water. Frankly, I don't think either is going to
make a whole lot of difference, but with toe-in, all you'll do is have
the outside wheel at an increase steering angle just as dynamic weight
transfer adds downward load onto it. That will give it more "bite" to
create even more force, etc, etc.

If I were to guess (and that's all this is: relatively educated
guessing) I'd have the wheels toe-out, so that as the weight is
transferred due to any initial deviation, it is transferred away from
the wheel running at the higher steering angle.

--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)

[Ed Sullivan]

On 15 Nov 2006 09:22:13 -0800, "DonMorrisey" >
wrote:

>Howdy.
>
>I'm at the point in my project where I'm lining up the landing gear.
>Based on what I've found from various sources there seems to be many
>schools of thought asto whether the main gear on a taildragger should
>toe in or out and how much????
>
>Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say on
>this topic. Thanks. Don....

As one who has experienced both conditions on a Baby Lakes and a
Jungster two I can definitely state that you dont want toe in. If you
dont believe me....try it.

Ed Sullivan

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 06:12:55 GMT, Ed Sullivan >
wrote:

>On 15 Nov 2006 09:22:13 -0800, "DonMorrisey" >
>wrote:
>
>>Howdy.
>>
>>I'm at the point in my project where I'm lining up the landing gear.
>>Based on what I've found from various sources there seems to be many
>>schools of thought asto whether the main gear on a taildragger should
>>toe in or out and how much????
>>
>>Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say on
>>this topic. Thanks. Don....
>
>As one who has experienced both conditions on a Baby Lakes and a
>Jungster two I can definitely state that you dont want toe in. If you
>dont believe me....try it.
>
>Ed Sullivan


I've always been of the opinion that a bit of toe out would mitigate
ground looping somewhat. Toe in can , in my opinion, definitely
contribute to the tendancy to ground-loop.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[[email protected]]

There have been a lot of arguments on this issue. The airplanes I've
had trouble with were usually toed-in, or had uneven alignment (one
wheel toed-out, one straight). Cessna and American Champion, among
other manufacturers, will ask for zero toe-in or out.
The RC modeler crowd seem to favor the toe-in outside wheel
scuffing drag theory, but they're operating mostly off grass and have
no idea how an airplane "feels" with toe-in or out. They spend most of
their early hours groundlooping no matter what the alignment. The RC
flying I've done just tells me that it's a lot harder than sitting in
the real thing and flying it.
The toe-in, seems to me, would be counterproductive anyway,
since the inside wheel in a groundloop has little or no weight on it,
and the outside wheel will have more say as to where the nose is going.
I'd align the wheels straight as best as I can, and tolerate a tiny bit
of toe-out, if anything.

Dan

[Stealth Pilot]

On 16 Nov 2006 14:24:35 -0800, wrote:

>

> The toe-in, seems to me, would be counterproductive anyway,
>since the inside wheel in a groundloop has little or no weight on it,
>and the outside wheel will have more say as to where the nose is going.
>I'd align the wheels straight as best as I can, and tolerate a tiny bit
>of toe-out, if anything.
>
> Dan

that is exactly what it is all about.
the wheel with the weight on it not contributing to the groundlooping
tendency. the other wheel has so little influence because it has no
weight on it that it can point anywhere.
the wheels need toe out.

Stealth Pilot
who flies a wittman w8 taildragger.

[.Blueskies.]

> wrote in message ups.com...
:
: There have been a lot of arguments on this issue. The airplanes I've
: had trouble with were usually toed-in, or had uneven alignment (one
: wheel toed-out, one straight). Cessna and American Champion, among
: other manufacturers, will ask for zero toe-in or out.
: The RC modeler crowd seem to favor the toe-in outside wheel
: scuffing drag theory, but they're operating mostly off grass and have
: no idea how an airplane "feels" with toe-in or out. They spend most of
: their early hours groundlooping no matter what the alignment. The RC
: flying I've done just tells me that it's a lot harder than sitting in
: the real thing and flying it.
: The toe-in, seems to me, would be counterproductive anyway,
: since the inside wheel in a groundloop has little or no weight on it,
: and the outside wheel will have more say as to where the nose is going.
: I'd align the wheels straight as best as I can, and tolerate a tiny bit
: of toe-out, if anything.
:
: Dan
:

I always set up my RC planes with a little toe-out...

[Roger[_4_]]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:22:14 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"DonMorrisey" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>>>
>>> Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say on
>>> this topic. Thanks. Don..
>>
>> OK,
>> Guess I should have checked the archives first. Now that I have...it
>> seems Toe Out is the condition I want, however ther was not a lot of
>> info on "how much". Any thoughts on that? thanks. Don....
>>
>Just enough to barely measure it. Like one or two degrees.
>
>You are really just insuring that there will not be any toe in.

Shucks. I was just getting ready to ask how much excitement he likes
on landings. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[john smith]

In article >,
Roger > wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:22:14 -0500, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"DonMorrisey" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Thought I'd throw it out here to see what the brain trust has to say on
> >>> this topic. Thanks. Don..
> >>
> >> OK,
> >> Guess I should have checked the archives first. Now that I have...it
> >> seems Toe Out is the condition I want, however ther was not a lot of
> >> info on "how much". Any thoughts on that? thanks. Don....

It depends on the taildragger.
There have been threads on this topic in the acro groups for years.
The RV'ers forums are another source.