OT for Kevin or anyone

[boB[_1_]]

Hey Kevin. You know a bunch about the simulators on the market today. I
may not be able to fly again for real so a simulator could help to fill
in the time. Can you lead me to some affordable simulators available,
especially for helicopter simulators. Affordable means a couple
thousand or 3....




--

boB

[boB[_1_]]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
>
>
> Nothing we have would work for you. Our "desktop" product is around
> $6k and is fixed wing only. Our heli product is $115,000..
>
> Have you checked Precision Flight Controls??


I'll take a look. Thanks. Can you send me a link to your 6K fixed wing
sim? Who knows. :)

--

boB
copter.six

[JohnO]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 00:41:11 GMT, boB > wrote:
>
> >The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Nothing we have would work for you. Our "desktop" product is around
> >> $6k and is fixed wing only. Our heli product is $115,000..
> >>
> >> Have you checked Precision Flight Controls??
> >
> >
> >I'll take a look. Thanks. Can you send me a link to your 6K fixed wing
> >sim? Who knows. :)
>
> OK, for the record, I had *NOTHING* to do with how this site is put
> together, but feel free to flame the webmaster. :)
>
> http://www.flyit.com

Crikey Kev, that web site is rubbish. We are very dissappointed in you.
You must try harder!

:-)

BTW, from what I saw I wouldn't mind working at your company.

[JohnO]

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
> On 20 Nov 2006 19:51:22 -0800, "JohnO" > wrote:
>
> >
> >The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
> >> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 00:41:11 GMT, boB > wrote:
> >>
> >> >The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Nothing we have would work for you. Our "desktop" product is around
> >> >> $6k and is fixed wing only. Our heli product is $115,000..
> >> >>
> >> >> Have you checked Precision Flight Controls??
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >I'll take a look. Thanks. Can you send me a link to your 6K fixed wing
> >> >sim? Who knows. :)
> >>
> >> OK, for the record, I had *NOTHING* to do with how this site is put
> >> together, but feel free to flame the webmaster. :)
> >>
> >> http://www.flyit.com
> >
> >Crikey Kev, that web site is rubbish. We are very dissappointed in you.
> >You must try harder!
> >
> >:-)
>
> About a year ago I was home with a sick kid and a built an entirely
> new site framework for this place. The CEO *LOVED* it, but it was
> vetoed by the company President - purely an ego issue 'cuz he created
> the original. At least all the blinking text in rainbow colors is
> almost gone...
>
> >BTW, from what I saw I wouldn't mind working at your company.
>
> Send me a resume.
>

Heh, for a minute I thought you said 'cry me a river' but then my eyes
cleared! Somehow I suspect you guys don't sponsor H1-B visa's for
software developers from New Zealand though.

[Tom Frey]

"boB" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Kevin. You know a bunch about the simulators on the market today. I
> may not be able to fly again for real so a simulator could help to fill in
> the time. Can you lead me to some affordable simulators available,
> especially for helicopter simulators. Affordable means a couple thousand
> or 3....
>
>
> boB

Hi boB,

Have you considered a home built sim? It's amazingly simple to link to the
PC using the game port. Four potentiometers and a game port plug, and the
rest is as simple as building a custom lawn chair. A lot of fun for just a
few bucks.

And XP will support multiple monitors. Adding one or two could give you
access to the instrument panel, horizon and perhaps birds eye view of the
craft in flight or something.

You could have a lot of fun with a good use PC and a few hundred bucks,
especially if you stuck with used monitors. When I was searching for info a
few years ago, I found one enthusiast that had built a full scale 100%
likeness of an F-16 cockpit. Over kill no doubt, but I bet he had a good
time with it.

I think I bought MS Flight Simulator, and X-Plane software for mine. Maybe
$100 a copy or so, and not bad for a home grown ship.

Food for thought,

Tom

[boB[_1_]]

Tom Frey wrote:

>
> Hi boB,
>
> Have you considered a home built sim? It's amazingly simple to link to the
> PC using the game port. Four potentiometers and a game port plug, and the
> rest is as simple as building a custom lawn chair. A lot of fun for just a
> few bucks.
>
>
> I think I bought MS Flight Simulator, and X-Plane software for mine. Maybe
> $100 a copy or so, and not bad for a home grown ship.
>
> Food for thought,
>
> Tom
>


Thanks for replying Tom. And of course thanks to Kevin. I'm looking at
a few pre-built simulators, actually 2 of them are complete sets of
Helicopter controls, for not a lot of money. But you are right,
building one wouldn't cost a lot.

--

boB

[JohnO]

boB wrote:
> Tom Frey wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi boB,
> >
> > Have you considered a home built sim? It's amazingly simple to link to the
> > PC using the game port. Four potentiometers and a game port plug, and the
> > rest is as simple as building a custom lawn chair. A lot of fun for just a
> > few bucks.
> >
> >
> > I think I bought MS Flight Simulator, and X-Plane software for mine. Maybe
> > $100 a copy or so, and not bad for a home grown ship.
> >
> > Food for thought,
> >
> > Tom
> >
>
>
> Thanks for replying Tom. And of course thanks to Kevin. I'm looking at
> a few pre-built simulators, actually 2 of them are complete sets of
> Helicopter controls, for not a lot of money. But you are right,
> building one wouldn't cost a lot.
>

Let us know how that goes.

What if any good pc based helicopter simulators are any good?

[boB[_1_]]

JohnO wrote:

>
> Let us know how that goes.
>
> What if any good pc based helicopter simulators are any good?
>

I've only flown MS's FS2002 and FS9 helicopters so I don't have any
experience with any other Sims. FS9 is not near realistic but I've read
that DODO Sim
http://www.dodosim.com/reviews.html
has tweaked a Bell 206 to realistically display Settling With Power,
Torque effect, Hot Starts, etc. I haven't bought it so I can't say much
about it. I do know I can neutralize my pedals, take my feet off
completely, and fly a traffic pattern in the FS9 Bell 206. Sometimes
the landing has some ground speed and my nose is not always lined up but
at any rate it's not realistic.

I did read at Hovercontrol.com they have had helicopter student pilots
who took the Hovercontrol Helicopter instruction course and then
actually hovered an actual helicopter with only 3 hours of real world
instruction. I don't know, it took me a bit longer than that, :) but if
true it says there is some benefit to FS9 as a training device for
procedures at least. Some rote knowledge of how the controls work I guess.

With the meds I'm taking my flying days may be over but I'm still hoping
to someday buy a GyroPlane and do some cross country exploring. My Army
retirement and my disability pay doesn't make me rich but then again,
maybe some day.......

--

boB

[Stefan Lörchner]

>completely, and fly a traffic pattern in the FS9 Bell 206. Sometimes
>the landing has some ground speed and my nose is not always lined up but
>at any rate it's not realistic.

I used X-Plane for some IFR training - but with a plane. I could "fly"
the included R22 for about 5s - seems pretty realistic. But I only had a
mouse and a keyboard for collective, no pedals.
The Blackhawk is much easier to fly.

There's also a Osprey included!
And you can customize all aircraft and build your own including airfoils
and panels.

[JohnO]

boB wrote:
> JohnO wrote:
>
> >
> > Let us know how that goes.
> >
> > What if any good pc based helicopter simulators are any good?
> >
>
> I've only flown MS's FS2002 and FS9 helicopters so I don't have any
> experience with any other Sims. FS9 is not near realistic but I've read
> that DODO Sim
> http://www.dodosim.com/reviews.html
> has tweaked a Bell 206 to realistically display Settling With Power,
> Torque effect, Hot Starts, etc. I haven't bought it so I can't say much
> about it. I do know I can neutralize my pedals, take my feet off
> completely, and fly a traffic pattern in the FS9 Bell 206. Sometimes
> the landing has some ground speed and my nose is not always lined up but
> at any rate it's not realistic.
>
> I did read at Hovercontrol.com they have had helicopter student pilots
> who took the Hovercontrol Helicopter instruction course and then
> actually hovered an actual helicopter with only 3 hours of real world
> instruction. I don't know, it took me a bit longer than that, :) but if
> true it says there is some benefit to FS9 as a training device for
> procedures at least. Some rote knowledge of how the controls work I guess.
>
> With the meds I'm taking my flying days may be over but I'm still hoping
> to someday buy a GyroPlane and do some cross country exploring. My Army
> retirement and my disability pay doesn't make me rich but then again,
> maybe some day.......
>

Hey boB, surely you can still fly as long as you have a suitably rated
co-pilot?

[Linc]

Consider this: http://www.heli-chair.com/

Linc

boB wrote:
> JohnO wrote:
>
> >
> > Let us know how that goes.
> >
> > What if any good pc based helicopter simulators are any good?
> >
>
> I've only flown MS's FS2002 and FS9 helicopters so I don't have any
> experience with any other Sims. FS9 is not near realistic but I've read
> that DODO Sim
> http://www.dodosim.com/reviews.html
> has tweaked a Bell 206 to realistically display Settling With Power,
> Torque effect, Hot Starts, etc. I haven't bought it so I can't say much
> about it. I do know I can neutralize my pedals, take my feet off
> completely, and fly a traffic pattern in the FS9 Bell 206. Sometimes
> the landing has some ground speed and my nose is not always lined up but
> at any rate it's not realistic.
>
> I did read at Hovercontrol.com they have had helicopter student pilots
> who took the Hovercontrol Helicopter instruction course and then
> actually hovered an actual helicopter with only 3 hours of real world
> instruction. I don't know, it took me a bit longer than that, :) but if
> true it says there is some benefit to FS9 as a training device for
> procedures at least. Some rote knowledge of how the controls work I guess.
>
> With the meds I'm taking my flying days may be over but I'm still hoping
> to someday buy a GyroPlane and do some cross country exploring. My Army
> retirement and my disability pay doesn't make me rich but then again,
> maybe some day.......
>
> --
>
> boB

[Shiver]

> Linc > wrote:

> Consider this: http://www.heli-chair.com/

I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one
I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one
I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one
I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one
I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one
I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one
I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one
I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one
I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one I want one


ACTUALLY FOLKS ----- I'm very surprised when I see people using the
same old RC radios that have been around for decades.

I always found it difficult to use those little twiddle sticks on a
futaba radio while trying to determine whether or not my plane was
flying straight and level or upside down.

I think that chair idea coupled to a RC helicopter is fantastic.

If somebody makes a similar system for RC planes I'd like to see a link
for it.

In my younger days I once watched a tape that showed a small closed
circuit TV camera being used on a RC plane with the pilot sitting at a
console kinda like the pilots of UAVs do know.

I was impressed with that but over the years I never saw an indication
of the technology being used at a more mainstream level.

[Tom Frey]

Snip-
> I've only flown MS's FS2002 and FS9 helicopters so I don't have any
> experience with any other Sims. FS9 is not near realistic but I've read
> that DODO Sim
> http://www.dodosim.com/reviews.html
> has tweaked a Bell 206 to realistically display Settling With Power,
> Torque effect, Hot Starts, etc. I haven't bought it so I can't say much
> about it. I do know I can neutralize my pedals, take my feet off
> completely, and fly a traffic pattern in the FS9 Bell 206. Sometimes the
> landing has some ground speed and my nose is not always lined up but at
> any rate it's not realistic.
>
Snip-
> boB

That's interesting, now you have me wondering if I ever want to continue my
project. I always thought I would like to get back to it someday but perhaps
not.

Have you spent much time adjusting the control dampening in the software? I
assumed since it was adjustable, a person could tailor it to be just about
as challenging as desired. Also, it seems the rudder was linked for the
benefit of those without pedals, and could be switched on to REQUIRE inputs
for those with rudder pedals. Does this not function well?

I might also mention that several people told me the X-Plane software was
even more realistic in it's control inputs than MSFS. I bought a copy, but
drifted away from the project before I actually tried it. It's been a few
years ago, and if DODO was available at the time, I wasn't aware of it.

Tom

[boB[_1_]]

JohnO wrote:

>>
>
> Hey boB, surely you can still fly as long as you have a suitably rated
> co-pilot?
>


It's the pain meds I take. I could quit the drugs and fly again OK, just
with a lot of pain.

--

boB
copter.six

[Shiver]

> boB > wrote:

> It's the pain meds I take. I could quit the drugs and fly again OK, just
> with a lot of pain.

Oh come on Bob.

Fly stoned.

Thousands of ex Vietname helicopter jocks can't be wrong.

[boB[_1_]]

Linc wrote:
> Consider this: http://www.heli-chair.com/
>
> Linc
>


That's something I've never seen before..... Thanks for posting that.
I wonder if it really works...

--

boB

[boB[_1_]]

Tom Frey wrote:
> Snip-
>
>> about it. I do know I can neutralize my pedals, take my feet off
>> completely, and fly a traffic pattern in the FS9 Bell 206. Sometimes the
>> landing has some ground speed and my nose is not always lined up but at
>> any rate it's not realistic.
>>
> Snip-
>> boB
>
> That's interesting, now you have me wondering if I ever want to continue my
> project. I always thought I would like to get back to it someday but perhaps
> not.
>

Which project Tom? Don't take my opinion as gospel, I've only played
around with the helicopter in the sim. It works well for instrument
procedures and can even help with some flight procedures.


> Have you spent much time adjusting the control dampening in the software? I
> assumed since it was adjustable, a person could tailor it to be just about
> as challenging as desired. Also, it seems the rudder was linked for the
> benefit of those without pedals, and could be switched on to REQUIRE inputs
> for those with rudder pedals. Does this not function well?
>

Not for me. I have a big old blind Akita that likes to go to sleep on my
feet so I can't get to the pedals. It sort of made me learn to fly with
no tail rotor control. I've tried it with the AutoRudder checked and
then un-checked. There's not a lot of difference, at least in the
default and addon helicopters I play with.


> I might also mention that several people told me the X-Plane software was
> even more realistic in it's control inputs than MSFS. I bought a copy, but
> drifted away from the project before I actually tried it. It's been a few
> years ago, and if DODO was available at the time, I wasn't aware of it.
>
> Tom
>
>

Several people now have mentioned X-Plane with good words to say about
it. It may be something to look at. Since you already have it can you
load it up and try a few flights?
--

boB
copter.six

[Tom Frey]

"boB" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Frey wrote:
>> Snip-
>>
>>> about it. I do know I can neutralize my pedals, take my feet off
>>> completely, and fly a traffic pattern in the FS9 Bell 206. Sometimes
>>> the landing has some ground speed and my nose is not always lined up but
>>> at any rate it's not realistic.
>>>
>> Snip-
>>> boB
>>
>> That's interesting, now you have me wondering if I ever want to continue
>> my project. I always thought I would like to get back to it someday but
>> perhaps not.
>>
>
> Which project Tom? Don't take my opinion as gospel, I've only played
> around with the helicopter in the sim. It works well for instrument
> procedures and can even help with some flight procedures.
>

My PC based sim project. My primary interest is the helicopter as well. I
just wanted to develope my coordination skills with helo controls, and one
day take a little instruction. Maybe just learn to hover or something. I
doubt that I would ever continue and actually get my ticket, due to the
limited availability of rental aircraft in my area. But I have a little
overy 300 hours fixed with time, and would like to spend enough time in a
helicopter to at least learn to hover or maybe solo.

But I tired quickly with the off the shelf joy sticks and wanted a more
realistic feel on the controls. That's why I did the experiment with the
game port. It would make it simple to fabricate something simular to the
heli-chair with little detail to the electronics necessary for something
like a USB interface. But if the rudder inputs couldn't be adjusted such
that they would be REQUIRED for sucessful flight, I probably would want to
wait until the off the shelf PC software is developed further, if ever.

Tom

[boB[_1_]]

Shiver wrote:
>> boB > wrote:
>
>> It's the pain meds I take. I could quit the drugs and fly again OK, just
>> with a lot of pain.
>
> Oh come on Bob.
>
> Fly stoned.
>
> Thousands of ex Vietname helicopter jocks can't be wrong.


Actually we did in Korea. Well if you count ingesting generous amounts
of alcohol as stoned. The early 70's in the 2nd ID, Camp Casey was a
trip in itself.

Rule. 5 UH-1s plus 5 PIC's had to be ready for take-off within 15
minutes. The Co-pilot could drink as much as he wanted. After 1 am or
so the PIC's were almost incapacitated.

In addition 4 AH-1Gs had to be armed and ready to escort the UH-1s. No
where in the rule did it say we couldn't drink. I guess they forgot.

There's a bunch of war stories there but I'm sure you can picture it.
:) Besides, Vietnam is where the REAL war stories come from.

--

boB
copter.six

[boB[_1_]]

Tom Frey wrote:
> "boB" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Tom Frey wrote:
>>> Snip-
>>>
>>>> about it. I do know I can neutralize my pedals, take my feet off
>>>> completely, and fly a traffic pattern in the FS9 Bell 206. Sometimes
>>>> the landing has some ground speed and my nose is not always lined up but
>>>> at any rate it's not realistic.
>>>>
>>> Snip-
>>>> boB
>>> That's interesting, now you have me wondering if I ever want to continue
>>> my project. I always thought I would like to get back to it someday but
>>> perhaps not.
>>>
>> Which project Tom? Don't take my opinion as gospel, I've only played
>> around with the helicopter in the sim. It works well for instrument
>> procedures and can even help with some flight procedures.
>>
>
> My PC based sim project. My primary interest is the helicopter as well. I
> just wanted to develope my coordination skills with helo controls, and one
> day take a little instruction. Maybe just learn to hover or something. I
> doubt that I would ever continue and actually get my ticket, due to the
> limited availability of rental aircraft in my area. But I have a little
> overy 300 hours fixed with time, and would like to spend enough time in a
> helicopter to at least learn to hover or maybe solo.
>
> But I tired quickly with the off the shelf joy sticks and wanted a more
> realistic feel on the controls. That's why I did the experiment with the
> game port. It would make it simple to fabricate something simular to the
> heli-chair with little detail to the electronics necessary for something
> like a USB interface. But if the rudder inputs couldn't be adjusted such
> that they would be REQUIRED for sucessful flight, I probably would want to
> wait until the off the shelf PC software is developed further, if ever.
>
> Tom
>
>


Tom, you should not give that up. You will always be glad you, at the
least, solo'd. It's an experience you will never forget.

Setting up some controls doesn't have to be expensive. I use the MOMO
Racing Pedal for anti-torque control and they come with a racing wheel
cheap on Ebay. I've seen sets around $25.00 many times. And you get
the added benefit of being able to drive some of the race cars.

Second is get a used MS sidewinder FFB joystick on Ebay for $10.00 or
so. Then set it up similar to this.

http://xs209.xs.to/xs209/06475/helo-cockpit03.jpg

You can leave it as a side Cyclic, like the front seat of a Cobra.

http://xs209.xs.to/xs209/06475/helo-cobra-front-seat-a.jpg

You can even set the cyclic in front of you but I wouldn't try to extend
a joystick with piping. I can't imagine getting a joystick moving 1:1
with the real thing so set it on a stand (not on the desk) between your
knees at a level that allows you to comfortably use the thumb and 2
fingers to softly grip the joystick around the base. I don't remember
too many times where I could grip the cyclic at the intended place on an
OH58. You had to on a Cobra because your little pinky was always on the
SCAS disengage button in case of a hard-over.

Then go to Hovercontrol.com and go through the training (it's a good
price - Free). After you are comfortable hovering the little play
helicopter in the Sim, go on and take the real training. As I said,
Hovercontrol says those that completed the Sim training, hovered the
real thing after 3 hour RL instruction. I would love to read your
experiences doing it that way.

Lastly, if you can afford it and want to continue Simming to maintain
some procedural proficiency you can even get the commercial controls on
the market.

This one really looks like a toy but it's nearly like the real thing. I
couldn't find the price though, you would have to go through their web
site to find the cost.

http://www.heli-kit.com.ar/in_Product.htm


Then again if you really want to go whole Hog, take a look at these.

Around $1500.00 US for the whole set
http://www.rcsimulations.com/copyprice.htm
Main Page
http://www.simcontrol.co.uk/newheli.htm

Or about $2700.00 US for these. He sales them to the British Military
so they must be fairly close to real.
http://helicoptersim.com/


boB


--

[Tom Frey]

I won't give up on the thought of getting a little flight training and
possibly soloing someday. I'm just wondering if the available PC software is
realistic enough to justify the cost and/or labor of fabricating more
realistic controls. If software is not available that can be tuned to
absolutely REQUIRE rudder inputs, then I might just stick with an
inexpensive joy stick.