Understanding fuel servo maintenance

[Robert M. Gary]

The fuel shop fixed my fuel servo by replacing the spring that holds
the fuel regulating diaphragm. The tech said the previous spring was
very stiff and he replaced it with one that was softer. Does that
indicate that the previous spring was broken (i.e. stiffer than it
should have been) or does Lycoming (Airmotive really) have a variety of
springs for adjustment purposes?? Did they fix the problem or just
adjust the fuel servo to work "post-problem".

-Robert, IO-360-A3B6

[Viperdoc[_3_]]

I've had two fuel servos repaired on two different engines- My impression is
that the parts are adjusted to insure adequate fuel flow, which is the
desired end result. I can not imagine how a spring would get stiffer with
time- perhaps the diaphragm became more compliant. Why not ask your mechanic
or the fuel shop?

[Robert M. Gary]

Viperdoc wrote:
> I've had two fuel servos repaired on two different engines- My impression is
> that the parts are adjusted to insure adequate fuel flow, which is the
> desired end result. I can not imagine how a spring would get stiffer with
> time- perhaps the diaphragm became more compliant. Why not ask your mechanic
> or the fuel shop?

Mechanic doesn't understand fuel servos (in fact, I've yet to ever find
an A&P who understands them from other than a theory point (since
they're aren't allowed to work on them anyway)). I got an anonymous
call from the fuel shop, I don't actually know who worked on it.
My real question is "is replacing the spring considered a repair issue
or an adjustment issue"?

-Robert

[[email protected][_1_]]

On 19 Nov 2006 08:11:59 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>
>Viperdoc wrote:
>> I've had two fuel servos repaired on two different engines- My impression is
>> that the parts are adjusted to insure adequate fuel flow, which is the
>> desired end result. I can not imagine how a spring would get stiffer with
>> time- perhaps the diaphragm became more compliant. Why not ask your mechanic
>> or the fuel shop?
>
>Mechanic doesn't understand fuel servos (in fact, I've yet to ever find
>an A&P who understands them from other than a theory point (since
>they're aren't allowed to work on them anyway)). I got an anonymous
>call from the fuel shop, I don't actually know who worked on it.
>My real question is "is replacing the spring considered a repair issue
>or an adjustment issue"?
>
>-Robert

Not sure what you are looking for here, honestly. If you cannot
discuss this with the person/facility that did the repair, contact
another facility.

http://www.gnaircraft.com/access.htm

Just one company that has been working on them for a long time. Just
be sure you have a clearly defined question that you want an answer
to. I.E. if you know specifically what part was replaced, your
specific servo p/n and your symptoms prior to repair.

http://www.precisionairmotive.com/

Dig into this site for the list of product support & warrany repair
centers-I can't post a "link" to that page, but G & N is on the list.

I "understand" Bendix/RSA servos just fine, but have no idea what you
are asking, I've never repaired one. Maybe you need to talk to someone
who repairs them every day.

TC

[Robert M. Gary]

wrote:
> On 19 Nov 2006 08:11:59 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
> wrote:
>> Not sure what you are looking for here, honestly. If you cannot
> discuss this with the person/facility that did the repair, contact
> another facility.

I guess I was hoping for smarter people here. ;) Whenever I speak to
the fuel shops (or any A&Ps) all I get is "it was too rich, it needed
to be dialed down". My concern is still "why was it running on day 1
and didn't run day 2". I don't think the thing can "unadjust itself" in
one day. However, I'm not sure if changing out the spring is just a
'readjustment' or a fix for a problem. Sadly, none of the fuel shops I
spoke to even know how to answer that. I guess they're just in the mode
of correcting what they see wrong, not necessarily finding a root
cause. In my line of work we spend weeks in classes learning how to do
RCA (finding actual root causes of things, not just fixing the signs of
the problem). When I mention root cause I get blank looks from the fuel
techs or A&P. The best I get back is "install it and try it". However,
that means I need to put a certain number of hours on it before I feel
good about flying the family and the Boy Scouts. Also, each R&R is
costing me about 10 hours of A&P time.

-Robert


> http://www.gnaircraft.com/access.htm
>
> Just one company that has been working on them for a long time. Just
> be sure you have a clearly defined question that you want an answer
> to. I.E. if you know specifically what part was replaced, your
> specific servo p/n and your symptoms prior to repair.
>
> http://www.precisionairmotive.com/
>
> Dig into this site for the list of product support & warrany repair
> centers-I can't post a "link" to that page, but G & N is on the list.
>
> I "understand" Bendix/RSA servos just fine, but have no idea what you
> are asking, I've never repaired one. Maybe you need to talk to someone
> who repairs them every day.
>
> TC

[[email protected][_1_]]

On 20 Nov 2006 10:52:00 -0800, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:


>I guess I was hoping for smarter people here. ;) Whenever I speak to
>the fuel shops (or any A&Ps) all I get is "it was too rich, it needed
>to be dialed down". My concern is still "why was it running on day 1
>and didn't run day 2". I don't think the thing can "unadjust itself" in
>one day. However, I'm not sure if changing out the spring is just a
>'readjustment' or a fix for a problem. Sadly, none of the fuel shops I
>spoke to even know how to answer that. I guess they're just in the mode
>of correcting what they see wrong, not necessarily finding a root
>cause. In my line of work we spend weeks in classes learning how to do
>RCA (finding actual root causes of things, not just fixing the signs of
>the problem). When I mention root cause I get blank looks from the fuel
>techs or A&P. The best I get back is "install it and try it". However,
>that means I need to put a certain number of hours on it before I feel
>good about flying the family and the Boy Scouts. Also, each R&R is
>costing me about 10 hours of A&P time.
>
>-Robert
>

Understood. Seriously.

If I'm not careful, my personal "ouiji board" will steer this towards
a rant, been enuff/too much of that here lately.

You want to correspond further (possibly gaining more info, but also
risking a rant) drop me an e-mail.

TC

[[email protected]]

(followups set to r.a.owning)

In rec.aviation.owning Robert M. Gary > wrote:
> The fuel shop fixed my fuel servo by replacing the spring that holds
> the fuel regulating diaphragm. The tech said the previous spring was
> very stiff and he replaced it with one that was softer. Does that
> indicate that the previous spring was broken (i.e. stiffer than it
> should have been) or does Lycoming (Airmotive really) have a variety
> of springs for adjustment purposes??

I don't know anything about fuel servos. But I have played with springs
before. :) For compression springs made out of a piece of wire that is
coiled up, the common failure modes seem to be: 1) breaking into pieces,
2) getting less springy over time - in other words, when new, a 10 lb.
force caused 0.25" deflection, but now a 10 lb. force causes 0.5"
deflection, and 3) taking a set - the springiness is about the same but
the free length is shorter than when new. I guess getting _more_
springy over time (10 lb = 0.25" new, 10 lb = 0.1" now) is possible but
I don't think it's very common.

If you look at a (car) engine manual, they often specify the
out-of-squareness, free length, and deflection under load of the valve
springs. Out-of-square is just putting the spring on a known flat
surface and making sure it is really vertical, or vertical to within
some small tolerance. Free length is the overall length with no load.
Deflection under load is either given as "it should take 10 to 15 pounds
to compress the spring 0.25" from its free length" or "a force of 15
pounds should compress the spring 0.2" to 0.3"." You can even get a
little jig with a lever and a ruler so you can apply a certain pressure
to the spring and measure the deflection.

I don't _think_ this is the case in a servo, but if you have a bunch of
springs, sometimes relative sameness is better than absolute conformity
to a spec. For instance, if the spec says the free length should be no
more than 1.25" and no less than 1.0", and you have four valve springs
at 0.990", 0.985", 0.995", and 0.993", then you're out of spec, but the
engine will probably still run sort of OK. But if you have four springs
at 0.990", 0.985", 0.720", and 0.993", then it'll probably run like crap.
If it's rebuild time, you'd replace all the springs in either case. But
if you're trying to figure out why it's running poorly, in the second
case you can probably blame it on the bad spring, while in the first case
you might keep looking. (Don't get me wrong - once you figure out why
it's running poorly you'd probably wind up replacing all the springs in
either case, since they are all out of spec.)

Sometimes you can get different springs to adjust a mechanism - either
of different free length or different spring constant. Springs with
very different free lengths are easy to tell apart by eye. If the
springs are the same length but have different spring constants, they
are sometimes color coded so you can tell them apart in the parts bin.
On older equipment, if there's only one spring, you sometimes see service
manual directions that say in so many words: "If you still can't get it
adjusted, maybe you got a widget from Monday morning and a spring from
Friday afternoon. Try a different spring and see if that helps." In
other words, they are admitting to tolerance buildups in the
manufacturing process.

Going on to the fuel side of things, it seems like a couple of common
problems include extra air (naturally aspirated engines) and crap in the
fuel lines. "Extra" air is an intake leak that allows air to get in
without going past the air measuring device (carburetor, fuel servo,
mass airflow meter, whatever) and leans out the mixture. This might
come and go when a hose flexes or similar. Crap in the fuel lines can
be pieces of the Dorito you dropped in the tank while fueling up, but
it can also be gunk deposited by the fuel when you let the engine sit
for a long time. Pieces of Dorito may eventually get sucked into the
engine, caught by a filter, or just fall out unnoticed when the fuel
line is disconnected. Old fuel gunk tends to be a little more
tenacious, but can also dissolve into the new fuel over time.

In your particular case, it seems to me that the procedures and
specifications ought to be written down somewhere. There should be a
defined rebuild procedure. There might be a spec for the spring and
there should definitely be a spec for the performance of the entire
servo assembly when run under defined conditions on a test bench or
a test engine. Even if you can't legally use that information to fix
your own servo, I would think (ha ha) that you ought to be able to get
a copy of it somewhere.

If you buy a $50 rebuilt alternator for your car, it will probably come
with a little tag that says "Alternator type 123 S/N 456 rebuilt by Acme
Corp. put out 60.1 A at 14.05 V at 3000 RPM when tested on 7/8/2009."
Sometimes there's even a cute little graph of output vs. RPM. Maybe
it's all printed by a random number generator, but if Acme can give you
all that for $50, your fuel servo shop ought to be able to do something
similar, IMHO.

Anyway, I think I agree with what I understand to be your basic premise,
which is that springs don't suddenly get stiffer on Tuesday. Ruling out
everything else can be a lot of work, though.

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with fuel systems, engines,
and general machinery in ground vehicles and in fixed installations.
I don't have an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. Your mileage may vary.

Matt Roberds

[Jon Kraus]

10 hours? And you said OK to that? I was hoping you were a little
smarter than that ;-)

We had our servo replaced at annual and were charged 2 hours for the
R&R. Did you look at what's involved it the R&R? Not much. And yes the
servos are adjustable. Matter of fact one of the ways you can tell it is
time for a new one is when the adjutsment screw is turned all the way
out and no more adjustment is left.

The servos are good for about 1000 hours before they need rebuilt so if
yours has around that many hours than you probably just wasted your
money trying to nickel and dime the situation instead of just rebuilding
yours.

As far as "needing" to know the root cause of everything, does it really
matter? Do you need to know why you have a headache before taking some
asprin? :-)

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ UMP


Also, each R&R is
> costing me about 10 hours of A&P time.
>

[Jose[_1_]]

> As far as "needing" to know the root cause of everything, does it really matter? Do you need to know why you have a headache before taking some asprin? :-)

Sometimes it can save your life.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Robert M. Gary]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> 10 hours? And you said OK to that? I was hoping you were a little
> smarter than that ;-)

They had to pull all the intake and exhaust stacks to gain access.

> The servos are good for about 1000 hours before they need rebuilt so if
> yours has around that many hours than you probably just wasted your
> money trying to nickel and dime the situation instead of just rebuilding
> yours.

I do have 1000 SFNEW on this engine and servo. I'm surprised the FAA
doesn't have an AD requiring service severy 1000 hours if the units are
this prone to just flat out fail like that.

But this seems to imply that these are very dangerous parts. If this
servo had "unadjusted" itself in flight I would probably be in the
hospital right now. I just got lucky that it "unadjusted" itself during
runup (the engine quit and would only run if the mixture was held right
at idle cut off, moving the mixture forward would flood the engine
out). Engine ran great one day, engine failed the next.

> As far as "needing" to know the root cause of everything, does it really
> matter? Do you need to know why you have a headache before taking some
> asprin? :-)

I just need to know that its not going to need to be adjusted again
while I'm flying over the Sierras. I like to fly to some very remote
areas of Mexico. Taking a 2 week donkey ride back to the states through
the desert isn't appealing.


-Robert

[Mark Hansen]

On 11/21/06 09:23, Robert M. Gary wrote:

[ snip ]

>
> I just need to know that its not going to need to be adjusted again
> while I'm flying over the Sierras. I like to fly to some very remote
> areas of Mexico. Taking a 2 week donkey ride back to the states through
> the desert isn't appealing.

I hear you can ride on the tops of trains ;-\

>
>
> -Robert
>

[Robert M. Gary]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> 10 hours? And you said OK to that? I was hoping you were a little
> smarter than that ;-)
>
> We had our servo replaced at annual and were charged 2 hours for the
> R&R.

Just curious, did you already have the lower cowl dropped during the
R&R? If you went through the lower cowl vs. removing the intake stacks
I usually get charged 3 hours just to drop and return the lower cowl. I
can usually do it myself but it takes me 4-5 hours myself.

-Robert