OT - Video Card Question(s)

[Jay Honeck]

Okay, this thread isn't totally off-topic, as my questions are related
to making the piloting experience more real in the sim. It's time to
upgrade the Kiwi!

(See it here: http://alexisparkinn.com/the_kiwi_is_born.htm ).

I want to add a second monitor (dedicated for the panel), and use the
104" projection screen for the "out-the-window-world-view" only. This
means that I need a video card with two video outputs. "Lesser" models
seem to have a single DVI output and a single VGA (AKA: D-Sub) output,
while "better" models have two DVI outputs.

Our flight sim PC is a Dell Optiplex GX260, Pentium 4, with a gig of
RAM -- but only an AGP slot for video card upgrade. The current card
is a Radeon 7000, with just 32 mb of on-board memory, and a single VGA
port. This Dell system "only" has a 250 watt power supply, which --
along with the AGP slot -- pretty much eliminates the "latest &
greatest" video cards, all of which need a bigger power supply and/or
require a PCI-Express expansion slot.

Compatibility with an older system like this is obviously a problem. I
tried installing an ATI X1600 today (from Worst Buy), with 512 MB
on-board, and the PC wouldn't even boot up with it installed! I
obviously had pushed my older computer past its limits.

So, I'm aiming a bit lower, and looking at the EVGA GEForce 6600LE. See
it here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130262

It's reasonably priced, seems to have decent specs that are within the
limits of my PC, and is in-stock. Anyone have any experience with this
board? Anyone got a better idea?

I've spent five hours dinking around with this, between trips to Best
Buy and time researching on-line, and I'm starting to go cross-eyed!

Thanks,
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Martin Hotze]

On 19 Nov 2006 05:38:12 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote:

>So, I'm aiming a bit lower, and looking at the EVGA GEForce 6600LE. See
>it here:
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130262

according to the manufacturer:
http://www.evga.com/products/moreinfo.asp?pn=256-A8-N340-TX&family=17
---snip
Requirements
Minimum of a 300 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 18 Amp
Amps.)
---snap

and I'd look into a card with passive cooling - _if_ possible.

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Jay Honeck]

> >http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130262
>
> according to the manufacturer:
> http://www.evga.com/products/moreinfo.asp?pn=256-A8-N340-TX&family=17
> ---snip
> Requirements
> Minimum of a 300 Watt power supply.
> (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 18 Amp
> Amps.)
> ---snap
>
> and I'd look into a card with passive cooling - _if_ possible.

Nuts. I was afraid of something like that.

Any suggestions?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose[_1_]]

> Nuts. I was afraid of something like that.
>
> Any suggestions?

Well, considering how far you've gone with this fruit, you might
consider getting a new machine (computers are practially disposable
nowadays) and dedicating it to the kiwi. Get one with four (or more!)
video outputs, and dedicate the other two to side windows. A few spare
monitors and you'd have a simulator that would even get Mx to visit you
from France. :)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

You must use compatible video cards, be sure to check the
specs to be sure that you can run two monitors with
completely different outputs. Often you just split the
desktop, you need two independent outputs.

You may want to look into one of the new computers with a
dual core CPU, PCIe video and plenty of power and cooling.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| Okay, this thread isn't totally off-topic, as my questions
are related
| to making the piloting experience more real in the sim.
It's time to
| upgrade the Kiwi!
|
| (See it here:
http://alexisparkinn.com/the_kiwi_is_born.htm ).
|
| I want to add a second monitor (dedicated for the panel),
and use the
| 104" projection screen for the "out-the-window-world-view"
only. This
| means that I need a video card with two video outputs.
"Lesser" models
| seem to have a single DVI output and a single VGA (AKA:
D-Sub) output,
| while "better" models have two DVI outputs.
|
| Our flight sim PC is a Dell Optiplex GX260, Pentium 4,
with a gig of
| RAM -- but only an AGP slot for video card upgrade. The
current card
| is a Radeon 7000, with just 32 mb of on-board memory, and
a single VGA
| port. This Dell system "only" has a 250 watt power
supply, which --
| along with the AGP slot -- pretty much eliminates the
"latest &
| greatest" video cards, all of which need a bigger power
supply and/or
| require a PCI-Express expansion slot.
|
| Compatibility with an older system like this is obviously
a problem. I
| tried installing an ATI X1600 today (from Worst Buy), with
512 MB
| on-board, and the PC wouldn't even boot up with it
installed! I
| obviously had pushed my older computer past its limits.
|
| So, I'm aiming a bit lower, and looking at the EVGA
GEForce 6600LE. See
| it here:
|
|
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130262
|
| It's reasonably priced, seems to have decent specs that
are within the
| limits of my PC, and is in-stock. Anyone have any
experience with this
| board? Anyone got a better idea?
|
| I've spent five hours dinking around with this, between
trips to Best
| Buy and time researching on-line, and I'm starting to go
cross-eyed!
|
| Thanks,
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

[john smith]

In article om>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> I've spent five hours dinking around with this,

First time I read it I saw "I spent five hours drinking around this,..."
It sounded like an appropriate way to solve the problem.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> [...]
> This Dell system "only" has a 250 watt power supply, which --
> along with the AGP slot -- pretty much eliminates the "latest &
> greatest" video cards, all of which need a bigger power supply and/or
> require a PCI-Express expansion slot.
>
> Compatibility with an older system like this is obviously a problem. I
> tried installing an ATI X1600 today (from Worst Buy), with 512 MB
> on-board, and the PC wouldn't even boot up with it installed! I
> obviously had pushed my older computer past its limits.
>
> So, I'm aiming a bit lower, and looking at the EVGA GEForce 6600LE.

You're aiming *lower* than the X1600?

Yikes.

Anyway, I will bet that your power supply is insufficient for a second card,
no matter how underpowered a card you get. 250W just isn't that much. The
P4 is cut from the power-hungry cloth that Intel used for a long time, and
it's likely you have enough other components to push power usage up close to
what the power supply is actually capable of.

Speaking of which, the total power available is likely something less than
250W, by the way. I wouldn't be surprised if Dell's 250W PS is capable of
250W peak power, but provides something less than that steady state. Even
if the power supply can do a steady 250W, the total power rating of a power
supply only provides a rough guide...you need to look at the ratings in the
individual power outputs of the supply and compare them to what they are
feeding. If you've got (for example) one "rail" putting out 30A and another
putting out 15A, trying to feed two components that require 20A each,
there's no direct way that will work. Neither component can use the 15A
rail, and the two combined exceed the 30A rail's capacity. Even though the
40A requirement is less than your theoretical 45A capacity, it actually is
greater than what the power supply is capable of.

Anyway...

At a minimum, your first step should be to upgrade the power supply. If you
expect to use that computer with two video cards, I think it's practically
guaranteed that you need a beefier power supply. If you want to keep it
simple, get something 350W or higher. If you want to do some extra legwork
and possibly buy something cheaper, then learn about how the power ratings
for individual rails on a power supply work, as well as how to determine
what rails feed what components, so that way you can see if a lower capacity
power supply would still work.

Personally, I wouldn't waste time buying a really low-end video card. Even
the X1600 is a few generations old, and going lower-end is just a waste of
time and effort, if not money. For only a little more, you can get a much
better card, even remaining down at the lower end of the performance
spectrum. I'd look at something in the X1800 range, or 6800/6900 for nVidia
chipsets, if you really must go low-end.

That said, really what you ought to be thinking about is going high-end, if
you really intend to keep using this computer for awhile. It'll cost more,
but you will get more longevity and bang for your buck. You can get an AGP
version of nVidia's 7800 chipset, or wait a few weeks and ATI will have
their X1950 on the shelves in an AGP version.

Especially given that you are using this for MSFS, and especially given that
you will only get the best 3D graphics and frame rates out of their latest
version if you are using a completely modern video card, you are cheating
yourself if you go low-end on this. Your current video card is really only
suitable for drawing the instrument panel, IMHO.

And finally, all of the above said, I have to say that I agree with Jose on
this one. The computer you're messing with sounds pretty low-end to start
with. That appears to be the reason you're aiming low-end for the video
card as well, but IMHO that's a false economy. You can get a cheap PC today
that beats the pants off your Dell for about $500. If you spend $1000 you
can get a PC that is near the high end of available performance, including
the video card. For the effort, time, and expense you've put into this
project already, you ought to just go modern all the way on the PC hardware,
ensuring that you are getting the best possible image, performance, and
flight experience from your flight simulator. (And yes, if you do wind up
doing that, you might consider getting a PC that handle a couple of video
cards, each with a couple of outputs, for that excessive multi-screen
experience :) ).

On the bright side, if you buy a new PC, you don't have to worry about
upgrading the power supply on the old one. :)

Pete

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:48:51 GMT, john smith wrote:

>> I've spent five hours dinking around with this,
>
>First time I read it I saw "I spent five hours drinking around this,..."
>It sounded like an appropriate way to solve the problem.

it would also have solved the split screen issue, too. only temporarily, of
course. *g*

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 10:24:48 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>You may want to look into one of the new computers with a
>dual core CPU, PCIe video and plenty of power and cooling.

the good thing of those core 2 duo machines is that they didn't use this
much power anymore (350W PSU are OK, depending on graphics and other
accessories) and don't produce that much heat than the prescott modells
did. And they also produce less noise, too.

my suggestion:
- motherboard with either raid on board or a extra raid controller
(fasttrack has cheap and good ones)
- 2 S-ATA harddrives with raid 1 mirroring. If you lose one drive you can
still work (fly) and can get yourself a new drive, so you save yourself
setting up the machine again. samsung!
- intel core 2 duo cpu
- min. 1 gig ram, the faster the better (ddr2 667mhz, samsung ... *yammi*)
- graphic card with DVI out (you'll buy new monitors later and will have
DVI-IN), ~256mb ram.
- optical drive (samsung)
- floppy (yes, you'll need one for the raid controller, external usb will
not be recognised by windows during install)

IMHO, RAID will save you a lot of time and hassle, because you'll lose one
drive the monemt you will like it the least (according to Murphy's law).

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[john smith]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> - 2 S-ATA harddrives with raid 1 mirroring. If you lose one drive you can
> still work (fly) and can get yourself a new drive, so you save yourself
> setting up the machine again. samsung!

Another way to increase speed... look at installing Western Digital
RAPTOR HD (spins at 10,000 rpm). Watch the specs to make certain the PS
can handle them.

[Jim Burns]

"Jay Honeck" > >
> Any suggestions?

New (larger) power supply for the MB & daughter cards.
Save the second one, install it "somewhere", buy a normally open relay, wire
it to the first power supply and you now have all the power you'll ever
need. Run the MB from the new larger supply and the HD's and other junk
from the second.

It works pretty good, this is the way I"ve got my old PC set up and I've
never had a power issue.

Jim

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> Anyone got a better idea?
>
> I've spent five hours dinking around with this, between trips to Best
> Buy and time researching on-line, and I'm starting to go cross-eyed!

Jay;

The day after Thanksgiving sales are almost here. Go get in line at about
04:00, and get one of the good buys on a new computer.

It will be almost as cheap as all of the work-arounds suggested, and you will
have something that will work for a few more years.

I'll bet that running the computer you have at the maximum limits of performance
in the Kiwi will be producing a lot of heat, which is a bad thing for the life
of a computer. I'll bet you will be buying a new one within a year, anyway.

Get an extra case fan, too. Less than $15, I think.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> On the bright side, if you buy a new PC, you don't have to worry about
> upgrading the power supply on the old one. :)

Good point... (Typical pilot way of approaching expenses, BTW... :-)

Up till now, I've been very proud that I've been able to build the Kiwi
largely without spending a lot of money. The PC, adjustable pilot's
seat, parts and labor to construct the "fuselage" have all been
entirely donated, which means that they cost me exactly ZERO.

Really, the only thing I've had to buy are the yoke & rudder pedals,
and various USB and power extension cords. (The Kiwi is about 20 feet
from the PC that powers it.) Well, and the projection system -- but we
already had that in-house.

The more I delve into this video problem, however, the more I see that
I'm looking at an obsolete system that can't be fixed with band-aids.
Running MS Flight Simulator X properly is going to take every ounce of
speed available in computers today, so I think I'll start looking into
a good gaming PC.

There is a local place in town (Neocomputers -- you can see 'em here at
http://www.neocomputers.com ) that is run by some good local people. I
think I'll see what they will charge to create the "ultimate" MS-FSX
gaming computer system for me.

Anyone got any other suppliers of complete "God Gaming Systems" that
they might recommend?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> my suggestion:
> - motherboard with either raid on board or a extra raid controller
> (fasttrack has cheap and good ones)

What is your opinion of this system set-up? Would a system like this
make FSX fly? If not, what would you change?

INTEL CORE DUO PROCESSORS E6600 CORE 2 DUO 2.40 GHZ 4M / 1066 FSB
$416.00
INTEL CORE DUO MOTHERBOARDS INTEL DQ965GF DDR2 MOTHERBOARD
$153.39
DDR2 MEMORY 2 GB DDR2 667 MEMORY $426.00
IDE HARD DRIVES MAXTOR 160GB 7200RPM 8MB SATA HARD DRIVE $78.63
CD-ROM DRIVES LITE-ON 16X DVD 52X32X52 CD-RW BLK COMBO $60.00
PCI-EXPRESS VIDEO CARDS EVGA 7800 GT 256MB PCI-E VIDEO CARD $348.00
SOUND CARD CREATIVE SOUND BLASTER PCI 128 $19.00
FLOPPY DRIVES SONY 1.44 FLOPPY DRIVE WHT $13.68
MID TOWER CASES EVERCASE WITH FRONT USB2/1394 400W $68.50
POWER SUPPLY INCLUDED (UNLESS DESCRIPTION SAYS NO PS) $0.00
CASE FANS TWO EXTRA YATE LOON CASE FANS $20.00
OPERATING SYSTEMS MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP HOME OEM SP2 $99.00
WARRANTY THREE YEARS PARTS & LABOR

SYSTEM PRICE $1702.20
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Macklin]

MS is dropping support on XP Home before long, but will
continue support for XP Pro. You should be sure to get the
Vista upgrade coupon, too.

Be sure the game allows you to split out the portion of the
display you want, it sounds as though you want to have just
the panel on one display and the outside world on the other.

Be sure that the video cards are designed for independent
output and are compatible with each other and the software.


A DVD RW 16x dual layer drive also does CDs, being able to
record a 8.5 GB DVD might be useful.


I would be sure the sound card will run a 5.1 system if you
want the "best" sound effects.

PCIe video cards may not work in the standard PCIe slots,
they have PCIe 16x slots for video, be sure about what slot
the mobo has for the second video card.



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|> my suggestion:
| > - motherboard with either raid on board or a extra raid
controller
| > (fasttrack has cheap and good ones)
|
| What is your opinion of this system set-up? Would a system
like this
| make FSX fly? If not, what would you change?
|
| INTEL CORE DUO PROCESSORS E6600 CORE 2 DUO 2.40 GHZ 4M /
1066 FSB
| $416.00
| INTEL CORE DUO MOTHERBOARDS INTEL DQ965GF DDR2
MOTHERBOARD
| $153.39
| DDR2 MEMORY 2 GB DDR2 667 MEMORY $426.00
| IDE HARD DRIVES MAXTOR 160GB 7200RPM 8MB SATA HARD DRIVE
$78.63
| CD-ROM DRIVES LITE-ON 16X DVD 52X32X52 CD-RW BLK COMBO
$60.00
| PCI-EXPRESS VIDEO CARDS EVGA 7800 GT 256MB PCI-E VIDEO
CARD $348.00
| SOUND CARD CREATIVE SOUND BLASTER PCI 128 $19.00
| FLOPPY DRIVES SONY 1.44 FLOPPY DRIVE WHT $13.68
| MID TOWER CASES EVERCASE WITH FRONT USB2/1394 400W $68.50
| POWER SUPPLY INCLUDED (UNLESS DESCRIPTION SAYS NO PS)
$0.00
| CASE FANS TWO EXTRA YATE LOON CASE FANS $20.00
| OPERATING SYSTEMS MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP HOME OEM SP2
$99.00
| WARRANTY THREE YEARS PARTS & LABOR
|
| SYSTEM PRICE $1702.20
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

[Morgans[_2_]]

Mercy!!!

You don't need all of that to run it. You could spend a lot less than that, on
something that would be just fine. Half that, or less.

Look at the worst buy website, for the day after thanksgiving sales.
--
Jim in NC

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> What is your opinion of this system set-up? Would a system like this
> make FSX fly? If not, what would you change?
>
> INTEL CORE DUO PROCESSORS E6600 CORE 2 DUO 2.40 GHZ 4M / 1066 FSB
> $416.00
> INTEL CORE DUO MOTHERBOARDS INTEL DQ965GF DDR2 MOTHERBOARD
> $153.39
> DDR2 MEMORY 2 GB DDR2 667 MEMORY $426.00

2 GB is minimum, 4 GB is better

> IDE HARD DRIVES MAXTOR 160GB 7200RPM 8MB SATA HARD DRIVE $78.63

160 GB HD is good for reliability; $79 price is high (Maxtor SATA 300 GB
is only $80)

> CD-ROM DRIVES LITE-ON 16X DVD 52X32X52 CD-RW BLK COMBO $60.00
> PCI-EXPRESS VIDEO CARDS EVGA 7800 GT 256MB PCI-E VIDEO CARD $348.00
> SOUND CARD CREATIVE SOUND BLASTER PCI 128 $19.00
> FLOPPY DRIVES SONY 1.44 FLOPPY DRIVE WHT $13.68
> MID TOWER CASES EVERCASE WITH FRONT USB2/1394 400W $68.50
> POWER SUPPLY INCLUDED (UNLESS DESCRIPTION SAYS NO PS) $0.00
> CASE FANS TWO EXTRA YATE LOON CASE FANS $20.00
> OPERATING SYSTEMS MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP HOME OEM SP2 $99.00

VISTA available 30 January 2007; XP sunset is 2009, Service Pack 3
may/may not deliver in 2008

> WARRANTY THREE YEARS PARTS & LABOR
> SYSTEM PRICE $1702.20

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> my suggestion:
>> - motherboard with either raid on board or a extra raid controller
>> (fasttrack has cheap and good ones)
>
> What is your opinion of this system set-up? Would a system like this
> make FSX fly? If not, what would you change? [snip]

lol...

Yes, a system like that would "make FSX fly". :) As NCJim says, it's
overkill. But hey...it's not terrible to overkill. Gives you some
breathing room for the future.

That said, the component prices for some of the stuff in that list sure look
steep to me. For example, you can get a Lite-On dual-layer DVD burner for
under $40. Paying $60 for a "combo" drive (ie, no DVD burning capability)
isn't reasonable, especially for that brand. And the video card, being a
mid-range for today's selection, should cost some $100 less than the price
you listed.

I did a quick check on the CPU, and that is also listed on your sheet $100
higher than the current street price.

I don't have a specific reference for the exact motherboard you've got
speced, but $150 is a pretty nice motherboard. It should have on it a
perfectly fine audio interface, obviating any need for an add-on card.

Other things wrong with the configuration, IMHO...

The hard drive is WAY too small. For that price, you ought to be able to
get something in the 200-250GB range, which is IMHO about as small a hard
drive as anyone ought to consider these days. If you can justify the
expense, even better is to go with some 2- or 3-drive RAID configuration.
Depending on how you set it up, you can get data protection (as Martin
suggested), a significant performance boost, or both.

And why bother with the floppy drive? Martin's wrong, you don't need a
floppy anymore. When XP first came out, motherboards didn't have built-in
support for the SATA controllers, and the XP install didn't include RAID
controller drivers. But motherboards today include a lot of new
functionality, including making a SATA drive look just like any other IDE
drive as far as Windows is concerned. No need to install drivers from a
floppy. Besides, unless you're building the PC yourself, OS install and
configuration is someone else's problem. If they need to install drivers
from a floppy drive, they can stick one in temporarily, just to get things
going.

Pete

[Don Byrer]

Hi Jay...
a noble cause...I hope to take advantage of it "someday" when Sara and
I get around to visiting.

Have you checked Tigerdirect(.com)? I noticed quite a few 'old tech'
video cards(some dual) a few weeks ago when I was looking for myself.
Make sure you dont get a 4x only card if your AGP is 2x..etc...FYI

Can your Dell take a standard replacement power supply? a
350-400W'er is not ridiculously priced...if a standard size one will
work

OR OR OR...
If you are happy with the video and PC you have, why not get an
amplified video splitter.

MCM Electronics
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&product%5Fid=83%2D8299
or
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&product%5Fid=83%2D7734
or 4-way
http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&product%5Fid=83%2D7733

For about $60-100 for splitter + cables you may be able to do it
without hacking into the PC.

--Don Byrer
Don Byrer
Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> [...]
> There is a local place in town (Neocomputers -- you can see 'em here at
> http://www.neocomputers.com ) that is run by some good local people. I
> think I'll see what they will charge to create the "ultimate" MS-FSX
> gaming computer system for me.
>
> Anyone got any other suppliers of complete "God Gaming Systems" that
> they might recommend?

Frankly, Dell would probably be just fine. Stick to their XPS line, or the
Alienware division they just bought. Other places you could check include
Hard Drives Northwest (www.hdnw.com) or VoodooPC (www.voodoopc.com). Both
are known for being reputable vendors of high-performance computers.

That said, if you can get a competitive price and the level of service you
know is appropriate from your local store, I'd say that's the way to go. I
wouldn't pay more than a 10-20% premium to buy local (not counting sales
tax), but as long as they aren't gouging you compared to mail-order, there's
a lot to be said for having a local vendor to provide support, especially in
those first two to four weeks as you use different elements of the PC and
discover minor (or sometimes major) problems with the hardware.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> [...]
> Anyone got any other suppliers of complete "God Gaming Systems" that
> they might recommend?

Oh, an in addition to my other post, I suppose I ought to point out...

There is not actually a need to buy a "God Gaming System". The systems I
mentioned in my other post are going to be top-of-the-line, and they will
have the performance to show for it. But as with practically everything
computer related, you pay a huge premium for that last 10% of performance.
For much less money, you can get systems that are almost as good and a much
better value for the money.

And I guess as long as I'm saying *that*, I should point out that the
high-end lines usually do include a "budget" category that is still a good
performer and while not cheap, is significantly less then the really
high-end stuff. So the vendors I mention aren't necessarily to be avoided
if you don't want to spend a lot. Just shop carefully.

Pete

[john smith]

If you are going to build locally, work a deal where the local shop is
allowed to plaster any advertising on the cpu case.

[Martin Hotze]

On 19 Nov 2006 16:33:23 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote:

>What is your opinion of this system set-up? Would a system like this
>make FSX fly? If not, what would you change?
>
>INTEL CORE DUO PROCESSORS E6600 CORE 2 DUO 2.40 GHZ 4M / 1066 FSB
>$416.00
>INTEL CORE DUO MOTHERBOARDS INTEL DQ965GF DDR2 MOTHERBOARD
>$153.39

I haven't checked the board, but I assume that a NIC is on board.

>DDR2 MEMORY 2 GB DDR2 667 MEMORY $426.00

what brand of memory? nd is this before tax? $213.00 for 1 GB sounds rather
expensive to me.

>IDE HARD DRIVES MAXTOR 160GB 7200RPM 8MB SATA HARD DRIVE $78.63

(with raid you need 2 drives and the controller)

>CD-ROM DRIVES LITE-ON 16X DVD 52X32X52 CD-RW BLK COMBO $60.00

*whow* do they come with golden trays?

>PCI-EXPRESS VIDEO CARDS EVGA 7800 GT 256MB PCI-E VIDEO CARD $348.00
>SOUND CARD CREATIVE SOUND BLASTER PCI 128 $19.00

a better soundcard (dolby? these little sound systems don't cost that much)

>FLOPPY DRIVES SONY 1.44 FLOPPY DRIVE WHT $13.68
>MID TOWER CASES EVERCASE WITH FRONT USB2/1394 400W $68.50
>POWER SUPPLY INCLUDED (UNLESS DESCRIPTION SAYS NO PS) $0.00

this case (at this price) should buy you a decent 420W PSU. For about $120
(relating to our prices) should buy you a very good case and PSU.
so: what type of PSU is included? any brand?

>CASE FANS TWO EXTRA YATE LOON CASE FANS $20.00

too expensive.

>OPERATING SYSTEMS MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP HOME OEM SP2 $99.00

upgrade to XP Pro
Antivirus?

>WARRANTY THREE YEARS PARTS & LABOR
>
>SYSTEM PRICE $1702.20
^^^^^^^^
good god!
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 17:13:13 -0800, Peter Duniho wrote:

>Yes, a system like that would "make FSX fly". :) As NCJim says, it's
>overkill. But hey...it's not terrible to overkill. Gives you some
>breathing room for the future.
>
>That said, the component prices for some of the stuff in that list sure look
>steep to me.

ACK

> For example, you can get a Lite-On dual-layer DVD burner for
>under $40. Paying $60 for a "combo" drive (ie, no DVD burning capability)
>isn't reasonable, especially for that brand.

ACK

> And the video card, being a
>mid-range for today's selection, should cost some $100 less than the price
>you listed.

ACK

>I did a quick check on the CPU, and that is also listed on your sheet $100
>higher than the current street price.
>
>I don't have a specific reference for the exact motherboard you've got
>speced, but $150 is a pretty nice motherboard. It should have on it a
>perfectly fine audio interface, obviating any need for an add-on card.

gamers will tell you that the onboard stuff will limit throughput and that
an external card will be better. But IMHO the onboard soundcard will not
let the plane crash :-)

>Other things wrong with the configuration, IMHO...
>
>The hard drive is WAY too small. For that price, you ought to be able to
>get something in the 200-250GB range, which is IMHO about as small a hard

if you need the gigs, OK, but else I'll go with smaller drives (heat,
noise)

>drive as anyone ought to consider these days. If you can justify the
>expense, even better is to go with some 2- or 3-drive RAID configuration.
>Depending on how you set it up, you can get data protection (as Martin
>suggested), a significant performance boost, or both.
>
>And why bother with the floppy drive? Martin's wrong, you don't need a
>floppy anymore. When XP first came out, motherboards didn't have built-in
>support for the SATA controllers, and the XP install didn't include RAID
>controller drivers. But motherboards today include a lot of new
>functionality, including making a SATA drive look just like any other IDE
>drive as far as Windows is concerned. No need to install drivers from a
>floppy.

But during INSTALL windows will need the RAID driver (_if_ you opt for RAID
system). And Windows will not recognise the driver from a USB floppy or
from a CD. You'll need a real FDD.

> Besides, unless you're building the PC yourself, OS install and
>configuration is someone else's problem.

YMMV. (what if he has to come on site and he has no FDD with him? pull the
PC? [1])

> If they need to install drivers
>from a floppy drive, they can stick one in temporarily, just to get things
>going.

While discussing Jay's total price of $1700something I won't discuss the
extra $10 for a FDD.

>Pete

#m

[1] check that the PC is both secured and well cooled
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Judah]

Check the Dell website...

You can get a Dell E520 with similar options (including FSX Deluxe) for
about half the price...

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:1163982803.277882.283880
@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> What is your opinion of this system set-up? Would a system like this
> make FSX fly? If not, what would you change?
>
> INTEL CORE DUO PROCESSORS E6600 CORE 2 DUO 2.40 GHZ 4M / 1066 FSB
> $416.00
> INTEL CORE DUO MOTHERBOARDS INTEL DQ965GF DDR2 MOTHERBOARD
> $153.39
> DDR2 MEMORY 2 GB DDR2 667 MEMORY $426.00
> IDE HARD DRIVES MAXTOR 160GB 7200RPM 8MB SATA HARD DRIVE $78.63
> CD-ROM DRIVES LITE-ON 16X DVD 52X32X52 CD-RW BLK COMBO $60.00
> PCI-EXPRESS VIDEO CARDS EVGA 7800 GT 256MB PCI-E VIDEO CARD $348.00
> SOUND CARD CREATIVE SOUND BLASTER PCI 128 $19.00
> FLOPPY DRIVES SONY 1.44 FLOPPY DRIVE WHT $13.68
> MID TOWER CASES EVERCASE WITH FRONT USB2/1394 400W $68.50
> POWER SUPPLY INCLUDED (UNLESS DESCRIPTION SAYS NO PS) $0.00
> CASE FANS TWO EXTRA YATE LOON CASE FANS $20.00
> OPERATING SYSTEMS MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP HOME OEM SP2 $99.00
> WARRANTY THREE YEARS PARTS & LABOR
>
> SYSTEM PRICE $1702.20
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Eric Bartsch]

Jay,

I may have to find time to drop in this week and see the Kiwi. I'll be
in the Iowa City area visiting relatives for the holiday. Sadly the
Pilatus will have to stay home as we're driving from Ohio. Are there
times that are better or worse to drop by on Tuesday or Wednesday?

Eric Bartsch

1959 Pilatus P-3
http://www.hometown.aol.com/bartscher/P3A848.html


On Nov 19, 8:38 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> Okay, this thread isn't totally off-topic, as my questions are related
> to making the piloting experience more real in the sim. It's time to
> upgrade the Kiwi!
>
> (See it here:http://alexisparkinn.com/the_kiwi_is_born.htm).
>
> I want to add a second monitor (dedicated for the panel), and use the
> 104" projection screen for the "out-the-window-world-view" only. This
> means that I need a video card with two video outputs. "Lesser" models
> seem to have a single DVI output and a single VGA (AKA: D-Sub) output,
> while "better" models have two DVI outputs.
>
> Our flight sim PC is a Dell Optiplex GX260, Pentium 4, with a gig of
> RAM -- but only an AGP slot for video card upgrade. The current card
> is a Radeon 7000, with just 32 mb of on-board memory, and a single VGA
> port. This Dell system "only" has a 250 watt power supply, which --
> along with the AGP slot -- pretty much eliminates the "latest &
> greatest" video cards, all of which need a bigger power supply and/or
> require a PCI-Express expansion slot.
>
> Compatibility with an older system like this is obviously a problem. I
> tried installing an ATI X1600 today (from Worst Buy), with 512 MB
> on-board, and the PC wouldn't even boot up with it installed! I
> obviously had pushed my older computer past its limits.
>
> So, I'm aiming a bit lower, and looking at the EVGA GEForce 6600LE. See
> it here:
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130262
>
> It's reasonably priced, seems to have decent specs that are within the
> limits of my PC, and is in-stock. Anyone have any experience with this
> board? Anyone got a better idea?
>
> I've spent five hours dinking around with this, between trips to Best
> Buy and time researching on-line, and I'm starting to go cross-eyed!
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Kev]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> I want to add a second monitor (dedicated for the panel), and use the
> 104" projection screen for the "out-the-window-world-view" only. This
> means that I need a video card with two video outputs.

Not necessary to have a dual video card.

An option is to use WideFs and a cast-off laptop/desktop for the
instrument display portion. There are free and not-so-free standalone
instrument panels, that use widefs to communicate over a net with the
core MSFS machine.

All you need is an extra cheap machine and a router.

For non-free example, see the GA IFR panel under Software at the
Project Magenta site:

http://www.projectmagenta.com/

Regards, Kev

[Don Byrer]

Sorry...I guessed I missed the part about 2 different displays when I
recommended the splitter...


On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:13:51 -0500, Don Byrer >
wrote:

>Hi Jay...
>a noble cause...I hope to take advantage of it "someday" when Sara and
>I get around to visiting.
>
>Have you checked Tigerdirect(.com)? I noticed quite a few 'old tech'
>video cards(some dual) a few weeks ago when I was looking for myself.
>Make sure you dont get a 4x only card if your AGP is 2x..etc...FYI
>
>Can your Dell take a standard replacement power supply? a
>350-400W'er is not ridiculously priced...if a standard size one will
>work
>
>OR OR OR...
>If you are happy with the video and PC you have, why not get an
>amplified video splitter.
>
>MCM Electronics
>http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&product%5Fid=83%2D8299
>or
>http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&product%5Fid=83%2D7734
>or 4-way
>http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&product%5Fid=83%2D7733
>
>For about $60-100 for splitter + cables you may be able to do it
>without hacking into the PC.
>
>--Don Byrer
>Don Byrer
>Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
>Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
>Amateur Radio KJ5KB
>
>"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
>"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

Don Byrer
Commercial Pilot / CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"I know what it sounds like....when doves cry" (Bird Strike 8/29/05)

[Jay Honeck]

> I may have to find time to drop in this week and see the Kiwi. I'll be
> in the Iowa City area visiting relatives for the holiday. Sadly the
> Pilatus will have to stay home as we're driving from Ohio. Are there
> times that are better or worse to drop by on Tuesday or Wednesday?

Hi Eric --

Mary and I are taking Wed/Thu/Fri off, so if you stop by Wednesday,
you'll get to meet my small-but-dedicated staff!

And what's this "driving from Ohio" stuff all about?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Check the Dell website...
>
> You can get a Dell E520 with similar options (including FSX Deluxe) for
> about half the price...

Interesting. I just went through all the rigamarole of building a
similar system on the Dell website, and ended up at over $2100.

See it here: (Only addition is Flight Simulator X)

How'd you come up with less than $1000?

XPS 700:
Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E6600 (4MB L2 Cache,2.4GHz,1066 FSB)
MBE66H [222-4389] 1

Operating System:
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 Edition with re-installation CD
WMCE
[313-7222][412-0688][420-4927][420-5460][420-5476][420-5586][420-5769][420-5924]
11

Memory:
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 2 DIMMs 2GB62 [311-5030]
3

Hard Drive:
250GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ 250S
[341-3666] 8

Optical Drive:
Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write
capability 16DVDRW [313-4304][313-4339][420-5780][420-5791] 16

Video Card:
256MB nVidia GeForce 7900 GS 7900GS [320-4806] 6

Sound Cards:
Sound Blaster® X-Fi™ XtremeMusic (D) Sound Card XFI [313-4307]
17

SYSTEM DETAILS:
2.5MM aluminum thickness Chassis with front & back customizable LEDs
DOZER [465-3640] 147

SYSTEM DETAILS:
7-slot, BTX design motherboard MB7BTX [465-3641] 147

SYSTEM DETAILS:
750-watt Power Supply 750WPS [465-3642] 147

SYSTEM DETAILS:
Tower Six-heat pipe, Copper base Heat Sink with aluminum fans HEATSNK
[465-3644] 147

SYSTEM DETAILS:
Two 120mm x 38mm front fans FANS [465-3645] 147

Mouse:
Dell Optical USB Mouse OM [310-7966] 12

Floppy Drive and Media Reader:
No Floppy Drive Included NFD [341-3764] 10

Modem:
No Modem Requested N [313-3607] 14

Gaming Software:
Microsoft - Flight Simulator X Deluxe 713261 [A0713261] 174

Warranty and Service:
1Yr Ltd Warranty and At-Home Service S111OS
[950-3337][950-9797][960-8700][980-8190][985-3718] 29
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> You can get a Dell E520 with similar options (including FSX Deluxe) for
> about half the price...

I just tried again, using the E520 as a starting point, and got the
price down to $1400.

Better, but still not half price!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Private]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Okay, this thread isn't totally off-topic, as my questions are related
> to making the piloting experience more real in the sim. It's time to
> upgrade the Kiwi!
>
> (See it here: http://alexisparkinn.com/the_kiwi_is_born.htm ).
>
> I want to add a second monitor (dedicated for the panel), and use the
> 104" projection screen for the "out-the-window-world-view" only. This
> means that I need a video card with two video outputs. "Lesser" models
> seem to have a single DVI output and a single VGA (AKA: D-Sub) output,
> while "better" models have two DVI outputs.
snip

I do not disagree with the many other suggestions you have received here and
as usual I am impressed by the diversity and depth of knowledge and
competence of this group. My simple contribution will no doubt reflect my
lack of experience with the 'bleeding edge' of technology and reflects my
techno strategy of 'using last years best'.

I have been using multiple monitors since W98 (and maybe even W95?) and have
found it to provide great usability and functionality and has allowed me to
have lots of screen real estate without the need to purchase huge monitors.
IIRC, Using multiple monitors with W9x did require a bit of tweaking but the
I have found the process to be straightforward and painless with WXPpro.

I currently have a couple of machines with dual head cards made by ATI and
Matrox. I have purchased these cards both new and from surplus jobbers and
have never paid >$90. New Matrox AGP dual head cards are available locally
for ~$22, and higher end ATI dual head AGP cards run ~$50-75.

I have made it a practice to collect any reasonably priced PCI video cards
that I find available and I find these cards very serviceable for running
secondary monitors with my admittedly less demanding mainly 'office type'
applications. Real gamers will have higher requirements but I have had good
results with MSFS but have not run the newest versions so they may be more
demanding of hardware performance. I have always intuitively felt that
using video cards from one mfgr would limit compatibility problems but have
read many reports of people who solved these problems by using cards from
different mfgr. I have not had any compatibility problems either way.

Your power supply does seem a little on the small side but I have
successfully run multiple monitors with similar power supplies.

I would suggest that you find some simple PCI cards and try it out, you have
little to lose and you probably have some of these cards available if you
look. There is no reason to limit yourself to two monitors as you are only
limited by the number of PCI slots in your box (and the size of your power
supply). Extra fans are always a good idea, don't be afraid to cut a hole
in the side of your box to mount a big fan pointed directly at your cards,
MB and memory. I bet that there is a local tech jobber who has lots of both
cards and power supplies either NOS or 'gently' used and for very low cost.
The current local cost for PCI video cards is $10-35. I bet your teenagers
or their friends know lots of bargain tech sources for slightly out of date
(non bleeding edge) equipment. The net is full of them but a local guy can
be a great source of both gear and advice and will be easier to find if the
gear is faulty or does not work. The local guy will also be a good source
for bargain memory which will benefit any setup. I have also had no
problems with using primary single output AGP cards and one or more low end
PCI cards also with single output.

I will admit that most of my usage of MSFS has been as an IFR and NAV-aid
simulator and I was not really looking to maximize the out the window
experience.

I suspect that when you discover how easy it is to have two monitors that
you will also want this functionality in your 'office' machine as you will
find it really nice to have a spreadsheet or a letter you are answering on
one monitor while you are writing another letter on the second monitor. I
find two small monitors to be much more functional than one larger monitor,
YMMV.

Good luck.

[Judah]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:1164051117.927132.80760
@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

>> You can get a Dell E520 with similar options (including FSX Deluxe) for
>> about half the price...
>
> I just tried again, using the E520 as a starting point, and got the
> price down to $1400.
>
> Better, but still not half price!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Hi Jay,

When I posted the message originally, it was based on an E520 at $904.

Two things that might have made up the $500 difference:

1) I didn't get the "PC-Care" support plan that they pushed at the start. I
opted for the standard 1 year support plan.

Besides, after the 1st year, the thing is only worth $500 anyway... And if
the thing breaks in 3 years, you buy another one for $900 and call it an
upgrade - you're still better off than the $2000 you would have paid
otherwise.

2) I didn't get the special sound-blaster card. I got the Sound-blaster
Audiology On Board. I don't know what it means, but I can't imagine that
engine noise sounds all that much better in SoundBlaster-audiology than it
does in the 7.1 on-board...

3) I didn't get the floppy drive. I didn't think you could even buy
floppies anymore.

4) No monitor - it looked like you already had the monitors covered.

My Components
Intel ® Core™2 Duo Processor E6400 (2.13GHz, 1066 FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 Edition
Express Upgrade to Windows Vista Home Premium from XP Media Center Edition
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16x DVD+/-RW Drive
No Monitor
256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro
Integrated Sound Blaster®Audigy™ HD Software Edition
My Accessories
No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system)
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse
No Floppy Drive Included
56K PCI Data Fax Modem
My Software
No productivity suite- Includes Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD
No Security Subscription
Trial pack- Basic and trial products from Corel and Yahoo
My Service
1Yr Ltd Warranty and At-Home Service
6 Months of EarthLink Internet Access Included
Also Includes
Mouse included in Wireless, Laser or Bluetooth Package
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet
Windows Vista™ Capable
Award Winning Service and Support
Vista Capable Sticker

$904

[Judah]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:1164051117.927132.80760
@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

>> You can get a Dell E520 with similar options (including FSX Deluxe) for
>> about half the price...
>
> I just tried again, using the E520 as a starting point, and got the
> price down to $1400.
>
> Better, but still not half price!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

I should point out the E520 is only a E6400 chip, instead of E6600 chip. I'm
not much of a gamer, but I suspect you won't notice the difference.
Frankly, I suspect you might not have noticed the difference between that and
a E6300, but for $50 a few more hundred MHz is probably worthwhile...

[Dan Youngquist]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006, Jay Honeck wrote:

> I want to add a second monitor (dedicated for the panel), and use the
> 104" projection screen for the "out-the-window-world-view" only. This
> means that I need a video card with two video outputs.
>
> Our flight sim PC is a Dell Optiplex GX260, Pentium 4, with a gig of
> RAM -- but only an AGP slot for video card upgrade. The current card
> is a Radeon 7000, with just 32 mb of on-board memory, and a single VGA
> port.

If your software will do it, any old cheapie PCI video card should do just
fine for the panel. I wouldn't think it would care about super high frame
rate, resolution, etc. A computer store will probably give you someone's
old cast-off 4MB PCI card for the panel, and keep your existing AGP card
for the main screen.

Of course, it all depends on what the software will do.

-Dan

[Morgans[_2_]]

Top posting, unusually.

I didn't see an operating system included. I would think it wise to get XP Pro,
since this is a MS game that will be used.
--
Jim in NC


"Judah" > wrote

> My Components
> Intel ® Core™2 Duo Processor E6400 (2.13GHz, 1066 FSB)
> Genuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 Edition
> Express Upgrade to Windows Vista Home Premium from XP Media Center Edition
> 2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
> 160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
> 16x DVD+/-RW Drive
> No Monitor
> 256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro
> Integrated Sound Blaster®Audigy™ HD Software Edition
> My Accessories
> No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system)
> Dell USB Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse
> No Floppy Drive Included
> 56K PCI Data Fax Modem
> My Software
> No productivity suite- Includes Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD
> No Security Subscription
> Trial pack- Basic and trial products from Corel and Yahoo
> My Service
> 1Yr Ltd Warranty and At-Home Service
> 6 Months of EarthLink Internet Access Included
> Also Includes
> Mouse included in Wireless, Laser or Bluetooth Package
> Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
> Integrated 10/100 Ethernet
> Windows Vista™ Capable
> Award Winning Service and Support
> Vista Capable Sticker
>
> $904

[Peter Duniho]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> Top posting, unusually.
>
> I didn't see an operating system included. I would think it wise to get
> XP Pro, since this is a MS game that will be used.

Look at the second item in Judah's list (the list you quoted when you top
posted).

The Media Center Edition is fine (and may even be desirable). Though,
personally I think anyone buying a Windows operating system today should
make sure that part of the deal is a voucher for a free upgrade to Vista. I
can't say whether Vista will or will not be a major improvement, but one
thing is for sure: it is the new standard for Windows PCs, and it would be
silly today to spend the $100 (or whatever) on a copy of XP, when it's
already basically obsolete.

Pete

[Judah]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
:

> Look at the second item in Judah's list (the list you quoted when you
> top posted).
>
> The Media Center Edition is fine (and may even be desirable). Though,
> personally I think anyone buying a Windows operating system today should
> make sure that part of the deal is a voucher for a free upgrade to
> Vista. I can't say whether Vista will or will not be a major
> improvement, but one thing is for sure: it is the new standard for
> Windows PCs, and it would be silly today to spend the $100 (or whatever)
> on a copy of XP, when it's already basically obsolete.

The free Vista Upgrade was listed on the third line. It was free. ;)

[Judah]

Judah > wrote in news:Xns9881ED410721AJudahnospamnet@
69.28.186.158:

> The free Vista Upgrade was listed on the third line. It was free. ;)

Although I just noticed it's an upgrade to Vista Home, not Vista Pro. I'm
somewhat surprised, because XP Media Edition is based on XP Pro...

Might be worth a few bucks if they want it for Vista Pro upgrade voucher...
I'm not up to date with the different Vista flavors - will they have a Vista
Media Center? Will it be based on Vista Pro?

[Greg B]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> Judah > wrote in news:Xns9881ED410721AJudahnospamnet@
> 69.28.186.158:
>
>> The free Vista Upgrade was listed on the third line. It was free. ;)
>
> Although I just noticed it's an upgrade to Vista Home, not Vista Pro. I'm
> somewhat surprised, because XP Media Edition is based on XP Pro...
>
> Might be worth a few bucks if they want it for Vista Pro upgrade
> voucher...
> I'm not up to date with the different Vista flavors - will they have a
> Vista
> Media Center? Will it be based on Vista Pro?

Microsoft lists 4 versions of Vista here:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/editions/default.mspx but I
think it'll be 7 different versions total. Probably if you get an upgrade
voucher for the Home version, you might be able to apply it towards one of
the 'better' versions.

As far as Pete wondering if XP is going to be obsolete soon, I doubt it.
Microsoft may drop the XP Home version first but the other 4 versions of XP
should last for a few more years. There's still plenty of stuff out there
that doesn't require Vista, yet. Microsoft just quit supporting 98 and ME
this past summer...

-Greg B.

[John T]

"Judah" > wrote in message

>
> I should point out the E520 is only a E6400 chip, instead of E6600
> chip. I'm not much of a gamer, but I suspect you won't notice the
> difference.
> Frankly, I suspect you might not have noticed the difference between
> that and a E6300, but for $50 a few more hundred MHz is probably
> worthwhile...

Another difference: The E6600 has a 4MB cache while the E6400 has half that.

I also recommend the Sonata or Sonata II "silent" case from Antec. Combined
with the factory cooler on the E6600 and a passively cooled Gigabyte video
card, my system is damned near silent - even when rendering video.

<http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=15139>
<http://www.gigabyte-usa.com/Products/VGA/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2235>

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Top posting, unusually.
>>
>> I didn't see an operating system included. I would think it wise to get
>> XP Pro, since this is a MS game that will be used.
>
> Look at the second item in Judah's list (the list you quoted when you top
> posted).

Shoot! I read that twice, looking for that. I guess I did not know there was a
media center edition.
>
> The Media Center Edition is fine (and may even be desirable). Though,
> personally I think anyone buying a Windows operating system today should make
> sure that part of the deal is a voucher for a free upgrade to Vista. I can't
> say whether Vista will or will not be a major improvement, but one thing is
> for sure: it is the new standard for Windows PCs, and it would be silly today
> to spend the $100 (or whatever) on a copy of XP, when it's already basically
> obsolete.

I thought that Vista was going to be a yearly fee license. I would stick with
XP, I think! That sucks, IMHO
--
Jim in NC

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> Judah > wrote in news:Xns9881ED410721AJudahnospamnet@
> 69.28.186.158:
>
>> The free Vista Upgrade was listed on the third line. It was free. ;)
>
> Although I just noticed it's an upgrade to Vista Home, not Vista Pro. I'm
> somewhat surprised, because XP Media Edition is based on XP Pro...
>
> Might be worth a few bucks if they want it for Vista Pro upgrade
> voucher...
> I'm not up to date with the different Vista flavors - will they have a
> Vista
> Media Center? Will it be based on Vista Pro?

The differences between the home and pro versions of Vista will be different
than that of the XP pro and home. In the case of Vista it will be more a
business and home.

The Media center features will be active in the Home version.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/features/default.mspx

[Jay Honeck]

> I also recommend the Sonata or Sonata II "silent" case from Antec. Combined
> with the factory cooler on the E6600 and a passively cooled Gigabyte video
> card, my system is damned near silent - even when rendering video.

Well, John, and everyone -- thanks for the great advice!

I met with the owner of our locally-owned computer shop (NeoComputers
-- see them here: http://www.neocomputers.com) and explained to him
what I was trying to do.

I then went on to explain how we attract a nice crowd of aviation
enthusiasts every Tuesday night -- and a goodly share of them are
high-end computer users who would benefit by knowing about his
store(s).

I told him that I didn't feel "right" using Best Buy or Dell for such a
locally-oriented project. I then offered to put signs up in our
theater that say something along the lines of "The Kiwi -- Powered by
NeoComputers", in exchange for him building a "God Gaming System" for
me -- at his cost.

He loved the idea, and immediately agreed to do this. It should be
done by this time next week.

I, of course, then proceeded to lose my mind further, and authorized
him to upgrade the components until the cost was still at my "mentally
accepted" price of $1500.

This is all starting to feel waaaaay too much like REAL aviation...

;-)

For those who care, here are some of the specs:

Intel Core 2 Duo 2.40 GHZ LGA 775 E6600
ASUS P5 LGA 75 965 DDR2 2 MB
2 GB DDR2 PC5300 667 Memory
ASUS EN7900GTX 512MB DDR3 PCI-E (video card)
AGI 500 watt power supply
Sound Blaster Audigy card
....plus the usual floppy drive and CD/DVD burner. I stayed with a 160
GB hard drive, figuring that'll keep us happy for now. (This machine
will be used ONLY for flight simming...)

NeoComputers will set it up and tweak it to run at peak speed, and
covers it with a 3-year warranty. The Kiwi is REALLY going to fly
now...and you guys can come fly it anytime you'd like!

Thanks again!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[fromTheShadows[_3_]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> The Kiwi is REALLY going to fly
> now...and you guys can come fly it anytime you'd like!
>
> Thanks again!
> --

Hi Jay,

So how long before you decide to go the whole hog and get yourself one
of these?

http://www.classicflight.co.uk/Motors.htm

If only I had the time, space, money... :o)
Cheers,

Craig

[Jay Honeck]

> > The Kiwi is REALLY going to fly
> > now...and you guys can come fly it anytime you'd like!

> So how long before you decide to go the whole hog and get yourself one
> of these?
>
> http://www.classicflight.co.uk/Motors.htm

Whoo-ee! THAT would be cool.

Although I'm not really sure that full-motion is all that important.
It's fun to watch people flying the Kiwi, from behind. WIth that big
screen, they lean this way and that, just like they're in a real plane!
It feels very much like you're moving, even though you're not...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On 21 Nov 2006 07:09:20 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
in om>:

>I stayed with a 160
>GB hard drive, figuring that'll keep us happy for now.

Have you considered the speed advantage of a SCSI HDD? More often
than not, it is the HDD that slows a computer system's response time;
they are never fast enough, IMO.

[Jose[_1_]]

> More often than not, it is the HDD that
> slows a computer system's response time...

Antivirus software puts a tremendous load on the system too. McAfee
does me in by a factor of ten.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Neil Gould]

Larry,

Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:

> On 21 Nov 2006 07:09:20 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> in om>:
>
>> I stayed with a 160
>> GB hard drive, figuring that'll keep us happy for now.
>
> Have you considered the speed advantage of a SCSI HDD? More often
> than not, it is the HDD that slows a computer system's response time;
> they are never fast enough, IMO.
>
In this type of application, I doubt that there would be any benefit to a
SCSI HDD. SCSI drives show performance advantages in applications that
require random read/write operations involving larger amounts of data, as
is the case with video editing or scientific modelling. In contrast,
flight sim read operations are usually sequential, for example loading the
next sector in the area display, and as many ATA /Serial ATA HDDs come
with sizeable cache memory, there shouldn't be "glitching" due to HDD data
transfer rates under normal usage.

Neil

[Peter Duniho]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> I thought that Vista was going to be a yearly fee license. I would stick
> with XP, I think! That sucks, IMHO

No, not for consumers. Microsoft has for years had subscription licenses to
a variety of their products, and Vista will have that option as well. But
end-users are going to have the usual "pay once" license.

Of course, with product activation, there's no such thing as a perpetual
license anymore. So you do effectively have a subscription...you just pay
for it once, and it runs out whenever Microsoft decides you should stop
using their software (well, you can keep using it until the first time you
have to reinstall it, anyway).

Pete

[john smith]

In article >,
"Peter Duniho" > wrote:

> The Media Center Edition is fine (and may even be desirable). Though,
> personally I think anyone buying a Windows operating system today should
> make sure that part of the deal is a voucher for a free upgrade to Vista. I
> can't say whether Vista will or will not be a major improvement, but one
> thing is for sure: it is the new standard for Windows PCs, and it would be
> silly today to spend the $100 (or whatever) on a copy of XP, when it's
> already basically obsolete.

Read the VISTA reviews, www.winsupersite.com

[john smith]

In article om>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> I told him that I didn't feel "right" using Best Buy or Dell for such a
> locally-oriented project. I then offered to put signs up in our
> theater that say something along the lines of "The Kiwi -- Powered by
> NeoComputers", in exchange for him building a "God Gaming System" for
> me -- at his cost.

Sounds like a Win-Win situation.
You may be getting a bigger crowd on Tuesday nights from his customers
as word of mouth gets around.
Has the local press picked up on the KIWI yet?

[john smith]

In article >,
"Greg B" > wrote:

> As far as Pete wondering if XP is going to be obsolete soon, I doubt it.
> Microsoft may drop the XP Home version first but the other 4 versions of XP
> should last for a few more years. There's still plenty of stuff out there
> that doesn't require Vista, yet. Microsoft just quit supporting 98 and ME
> this past summer...

Businesses will not convert until all their apps are thoroughly tested.
Plus, newly purchased equipment and software will have to run their
ammortization cycle before being replaced. What are the cycles for large
corporations? 3 years?

[Peter Duniho]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>I stayed with a 160
>>GB hard drive, figuring that'll keep us happy for now.
>
> Have you considered the speed advantage of a SCSI HDD? More often
> than not, it is the HDD that slows a computer system's response time;
> they are never fast enough, IMO.

This is no longer true (and hasn't been for a while now). With ATA150 (and
of course now with SATA), the bottleneck is typically in retrieving the data
from the media (that is, the drive itself). The interface plays little part
in the overall throughput of the data.

If you want to speed disk access, the solutions involve making it faster for
the drive to provide the data. Two common methods are larger buffers on the
drive (only help up to a point...read enough data at once, and the buffer
doesn't get "refilled" fast enough to help), or using RAID. The latter is
very effective, if the array is configured for performance (not all RAID
modes help performance...only the "striping" modes do). Of course, disk RPM
and areal density improve performance as well. Disk RPM in particular is a
big factor.

For best speed, set up a striped RAID array of 10,000RPM drives. It'll cost
a fortune, but you won't ever spend much time waiting on the disk. :)

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> [...]
> I, of course, then proceeded to lose my mind further, and authorized
> him to upgrade the components until the cost was still at my "mentally
> accepted" price of $1500.

A "God Gaming System" without SLI?

I don't get it.

And at his cost, with a budget of $1500, not only should SLI be part of the
package, it seems to me that your other components aren't as high-end as
they could be either.

Anyway, congratulations on the product placement deal. Sounds like a real
win-win for you both.

Pete

[randall g]

On 21 Nov 2006 07:09:20 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>For those who care, here are some of the specs:
>
>...plus the usual floppy drive


Why?



randall g =%^)> PPASEL+Night 1974 Cardinal RG
http://www.telemark.net/randallg
Lots of aerial photographs of British Columbia at:
http://www.telemark.net/randallg/photos.htm
Vancouver's famous Kat Kam: http://www.katkam.ca

[Jose[_1_]]

>>...plus the usual floppy drive
> Why?

Despite their reported obsolescence, they are still exceedingly useful
for tranfer of small files from machine to machine, especially those
without USB connections and drivers for whatever brand of thumb somebody
has.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[john smith]

In article >,
"Peter Duniho" > wrote:

> For best speed, set up a striped RAID array of 10,000RPM drives. It'll cost
> a fortune, but you won't ever spend much time waiting on the disk. :)

Western Digital RAPTOR 160 GB SATA is $229 at CompUSA.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>>>...plus the usual floppy drive
>> Why?
>
> Despite their reported obsolescence, they are still exceedingly useful for
> tranfer of small files from machine to machine, especially those without
> USB connections and drivers for whatever brand of thumb somebody has.

Huh? All modern PCs have USB now (heck, any older computer still in use is
very likely to have a USB controller added). As far as drivers go, Windows
has the USB storage device drivers built in. You don't need drivers
specific to the make or model of a USB flash drive. USB is a fine solution,
and CD burners are nearly as ubiquitous. Blank CDs cost less than a floppy,
last time I checked (granted, that hasn't been recently), so if you really
want a viable alternative to USB for "sneaker-net", CDs make a lot more
sense than floppies.

Until I have a chance to try it for myself, I won't bother arguing the RAID
issue that Martin claims, except to say that my nearly-relevant experience
suggests he's wrong (and to explain why I say this).

I built a PC this summer that had a RAID controller on it with a RAID BIOS
setup utility built in. For sure, you didn't need Windows to be installed
to configure the array, and as near as I could tell, once you had the array
configured, Windows would detect it as a plain IDE drive, at least initially
while it was installing, so no extra RAID drivers were necessary. Obviously
once Windows was installed, with the RAID drivers installed, Windows will
handle the higher-level RAID features, such as error reporting and the like.
But I didn't see any sign at all that Windows needed any drivers just to
install.

At the time, I didn't bother to try configuring an array, but for sure
Windows installed onto a single hard drive attached to the RAID controller
without any trouble at all, and no need for a floppy drive.

I haven't bought a computer with a floppy drive in five years, and probably
haven't even used a floppy drive in three. A floppy drive is just a dust
collector these days.

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> Has the local press picked up on the KIWI yet?

Nah, I've kept this thing just in the aviation/movie crowd, thus far,
while I worked the kinks out.

Once I get this new system in, and the panel display added, I intend to
have an open house for it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> >>...plus the usual floppy drive
> > Why?
>
> Despite their reported obsolescence, they are still exceedingly useful
> for tranfer of small files from machine to machine, especially those
> without USB connections and drivers for whatever brand of thumb somebody
> has.

The cost? $13 bucks. No sense in eliminating it, for that!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> A "God Gaming System" without SLI?
>
> I don't get it.

Actually, the first iteration of my system had two video cards (which,
I presume, is what you mean by "SLI"?) -- but for the same money the
owner looked at the specs and decided to go with a better single video
card instead. Dunno why.

> And at his cost, with a budget of $1500, not only should SLI be part of the
> package, it seems to me that your other components aren't as high-end as
> they could be either.

Everything is relative. I paid $3800 for a Compaq 386SX in 1989, so is
$1500 in 2006 money "expensive" for a computer that's 10,000 times more
powerful? He says this system will make FSX sing, and I'm gonna
believe him until I see otherwise.

I'll let you know next week sometime!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Judah]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
:

> Of course, with product activation, there's no such thing as a perpetual
> license anymore. So you do effectively have a subscription...you just
> pay for it once, and it runs out whenever Microsoft decides you should
> stop using their software (well, you can keep using it until the first
> time you have to reinstall it, anyway).

That's an interesting point...

Do you think Microsoft will prohibit Windows XP users from operating once
they deprecate that operating system? Presumably it's a ways away, but I
believe Windows XP SP 1 was officially deprecated in October '06...

[Jose[_1_]]

> [re. floppies] Huh? All modern PCs have USB now

To use it, you need a USB device. They are not free. Floppies are just
about free.

> As far as drivers go, Windows
> has the USB storage device drivers built in.

No it doesn't. Windows 98 is missing lots of drivers, as is 95. And
yes, I encounter these systems all the time in my travels - my wife uses
a 3.11 machine which is fine for what she does (text).

> Blank CDs cost less than a floppy

.... and generally can't be erased and reused like a floppy.

Floppies are still a terrific solution for simple text files (like Emails).

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[john smith]

In article >,
Judah > wrote:

> Do you think Microsoft will prohibit Windows XP users from operating once
> they deprecate that operating system? Presumably it's a ways away, but I
> believe Windows XP SP 1 was officially deprecated in October '06...

Windows XP sunset is 2009.
Service Pack 3, if it is produced, is expected in 2008.

[Peter Duniho]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> Do you think Microsoft will prohibit Windows XP users from operating once
> they deprecate that operating system? Presumably it's a ways away, but I
> believe Windows XP SP 1 was officially deprecated in October '06...

I don't know. What I do know is that there's no reason to believe that once
Windows XP passes the same "no longer supported" mark that the earlier
operating systems have (in part) already passed, Microsoft will continue to
provide activation codes for those products. IMHO, besides the support
costs (especially in today's "security update once a month" environment),
Microsoft also has a lot to gain simply in new sales if they can truly
obsolete your old operating system. I personally am not convinced they
would do this, but there are a lot of people out there who are.

Also, keep in mind that Vista will not only have Microsoft's product
activation, they will actually have code within the operating system that
can *disable* the operating system. Even if you get the operating system
installed and activated, something could happen later down the line that
would cause that code to be activated, and for your operating system to
simply stop working. While I doubt that Microsoft would use this to
actively turn off all operating systems out of their "supported" lifetime
(even as I can't rule that out), there's no reason to believe that the code
will work correctly 100% of the time. It could easily have a bug that
causes the operating system to become disabled unintentially.

And if the operating system is no longer being supported, do you suppose
Microsoft will actually help a customer who calls to ask and try to deal
with such a problem? I suspect they won't. I'd guess that Microsoft
product support will simply tell that user "sorry, we no longer support that
version of Windows".

At least with XP, once you get the OS activated, as long as you never have
to reinstall it and as long as you never install some Microsoft update that
can disable it the way that Vista can be disabled, you are assured that the
operating system will continue to work indefinitely. With Vista, there is
no such guarantee.

There are many reasons I hate copy protection, and product activation in
particular, and this is one of them. :)

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Actually, the first iteration of my system had two video cards (which,
> I presume, is what you mean by "SLI"?) -- but for the same money the
> owner looked at the specs and decided to go with a better single video
> card instead. Dunno why.

SLI (Scalable Link Interface) is nVidia's means for using two video cards in
parallel to display a single screen's worth of image. Each video card works
on roughly half of the video image, allowing a single frame to be rendered
in half the time, thus doubling the frame rate. It's pretty much the
opposite of what you're considering (a non-SLI, two-output video card will
be sharing the video processor between the two monitors, halving
performance). :)

Still, SLI is the way to go for maximum frame rate performance. Given that
you're displaying through a DLP projector (which will lock your frame rate
at 60fps max), it may be overkill, but it still doesn't qualify as a "God
Gaming System" without it.

You can get a single video card with two SLI video processors built
in...that is, an SLI solution that doesn't require a motherboard that
supports SLI (most SLI cards only work with specific motherboards). You
could use a couple of those to get a two-monitor, SLI-rendered output. Now
*that* would cook. :) I hear there is even some quad-SLI stuff available
now.

>> And at his cost, with a budget of $1500, not only should SLI be part of
>> the
>> package, it seems to me that your other components aren't as high-end as
>> they could be either.
>
> Everything is relative. I paid $3800 for a Compaq 386SX in 1989, so is
> $1500 in 2006 money "expensive" for a computer that's 10,000 times more
> powerful? He says this system will make FSX sing, and I'm gonna
> believe him until I see otherwise.

Well, my point isn't that $1500 is too much to pay for a PC, nor is it that
the configuration you've posted won't be a good one. The fact is, most
people would never notice the difference between a good value system (best
performance per dollar) and the highest performing system (best performance,
period).

I just feel that for what you've posted, it should cost less. I suspect
that you could build that system using parts bought retail for $1500. So if
you're supposed to be paying his cost, either he's essentially buying his
parts retail, or he's got some profit built into the price.

Not that I think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. If you feel
that you are getting a good computer for the money you're spending and
you're comfortable with the dealer, that's what's important. I think some
people spend a lot more time worrying about that last nickle than they
should. But one should at least know whether they are giving the nickle
away or not. :)

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The cost? $13 bucks. No sense in eliminating it, for that!

It costs more than $13 (ignoring for the moment that $13 is pretty steep for
a floppy). That's just the cost of the part. There's an incremental cost
in labor to install it, plus additional support costs related to the fact
that it's just one more component that can fail.

And when I wrote that a floppy drive is a "dust collector", I wasn't just
using that as a figure of speech. The floppy drive is literally a place
where dust will collect. Over time, this will impair the functionality of
the drive, and it also provides a route for dust to enter the PC case. Not
that most people have cases that otherwise eliminate dust, but the more dust
going in, the more often the electronics (and especially the heat-sinks and
dissipaters) need to be cleaned off.

There are some people who know for a fact that they will use a floppy drive.
For everyone else, today there is no good reason to have one.

Pete

[Jose[_1_]]

> ...or he's got some profit built into the price.
>
> Not that I think there's necessarily anything wrong with that.

Well, if the contract is "at cost", then there =is= something wrong with
it, especially since Jay's serving as a billboard for him.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Also, keep in mind that Vista will not only have Microsoft's product
> activation, they will actually have code within the operating system that
> can *disable* the operating system.

I guess Microsoft has decided that if it can't beat the virus writers,
it might as well join them. Will it offer an SDK?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. com...
>> [re. floppies] Huh? All modern PCs have USB now
>
> To use it, you need a USB device. They are not free. Floppies are just
> about free.

Actually, it is not hard to find free USB flash drives. That said, a small
one costs no more than a floppy drive (well, an expensive one like Jay's
proposing to buy, anyway).

And floppies aren't free...they cost on the order of 50 cents each or more.
That's five to ten times as much as a blank CD costs.

>> As far as drivers go, Windows has the USB storage device drivers built
>> in.
>
> No it doesn't. Windows 98 is missing lots of drivers, as is 95.

A computer that has a USB controller but does not have USB drivers installed
makes no sense whatsoever. In any case, the fact remains that the drivers
are not specific to the flash drives. The USB flash drives all act as a
standard disk controller, and the standard Windows USB drivers recognize it
as such.

> And yes, I encounter these systems all the time in my travels - my wife
> uses a 3.11 machine which is fine for what she does (text).

If you have a specific computer that requires the use of a floppy drive to
move data to it, that is one thing. However, it is stupid to generalize
that to a claim that a floppy drive is always (or even often) a useful thing
to have on a brand-new computer.

We are talking about Jay's computer here, not your wife's, or even a
computer that has to operate with your wife's.

>> Blank CDs cost less than a floppy
>
> ... and generally can't be erased and reused like a floppy.

At the price differential, you'd have to be moving a lot of data on a
regular basis before the floppy comes out ahead. For infrequent use, the
read-only nature of CDs is irrelevant (especially given their vastly lower
cost), and for frequent use, floppies are just dumb. If you're moving data
that often, connect the computers with an actual network.

> Floppies are still a terrific solution for simple text files (like
> Emails).

They are no better a solution than CDs, and frankly when most people want to
move an email message from one computer to another, they EMAIL it.

Again, maybe you have some whacked out, 15-years behind the times situation
in which a floppy drive makes sense. It certainly seems reasonable that if
the rest of your technology is 15 years old, you may need to continue to buy
ancient, obsolete technology in order to continue interoperating with that
15 year old stuff.

But that in no way suggests an answer to the more general question of what a
modern PC needs to have.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> ...or he's got some profit built into the price.
>>
>> Not that I think there's necessarily anything wrong with that.
>
> Well, if the contract is "at cost", then there =is= something wrong with
> it, especially since Jay's serving as a billboard for him.

What contract? I doubt anyone's signing papers here.

The point is that as long as Jay understands that the "at cost" number is
equivalent to buying the parts retail, and as long as he's okay with that, I
don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the situation. It's between Jay
and his vendor.

Pete

[Judah]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
:

> At least with XP, once you get the OS activated, as long as you never
> have to reinstall it and as long as you never install some Microsoft
> update that can disable it the way that Vista can be disabled, you are
> assured that the operating system will continue to work indefinitely.
> With Vista, there is no such guarantee.
>
> There are many reasons I hate copy protection, and product activation in
> particular, and this is one of them. :)

Well, that's kinda exactly what I was afraid of, although it seems like Vista
is the first version to fear...

Hopefully by 2009 these guys will have their act together...

http://www.reactos.com/

[Peter Duniho]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> Well, that's kinda exactly what I was afraid of, although it seems like
> Vista
> is the first version to fear...

I dunno...I fear any product that requires activation to be installed.
After all, there's never any guarantee that activation will always be
provided.

That said, yes...the Vista activation feature is a lot scarier than what
we've seen so far.

[Jose[_1_]]

> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in?

I haven't seen any. I've seen cheap ones though. (ten dollars or so
for 64 meg).

> And floppies aren't free...they cost on the order of 50 cents each or more.

My last set of floppies was free. I got five hundred.

> A computer that has a USB controller but does not have USB drivers installed
> makes no sense whatsoever.

Meet Windows 98. I'm not completely being fair - I have used my camera
as a thumb drive, and it requires drivers to be downloaded and installed
on Windows 98 machines.

> However, it is stupid to generalize that to a claim that
> a floppy drive is always (or even often) a useful thing
> to have on a brand-new computer.

I'm not. However I've found that obsolete devices come in handy at the
oddest times, and for those times I'm really glad I have them.

I will admit however to not needing a 5 inch drive for a while (though I
did wish I had one some years back)

> frankly when most people want to
> move an email message from one computer to another, they EMAIL it.

That was Apple's solution some years back. It was dumb then, it's dumb
now. It requires the internet. Floppies don't.

> maybe you have some whacked out, 15-years behind the times

Hey! :)

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> What contract? I doubt anyone's signing papers here.

A contract doesn't require papers. Would the guy be justifiably upset
if Jay decided... "no contract, I'll just take the ads off the system"?

> as long as Jay understands that the "at cost" number is
> equivalent to buying the parts retail

I would not have understood that to be the case, unless =his= cost is
retail.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> What contract? I doubt anyone's signing papers here.
>
> A contract doesn't require papers. Would the guy be justifiably upset if
> Jay decided... "no contract, I'll just take the ads off the system"?

A verbal contract is extremely hard to contest. Not impossible, granted,
but nearly so. In any case, the point is that my interpretation of the
situation is that this is a gentleman's agreement between two local
businessmen. The exact nature of the arrangement is fluid, but as long as
each individual understands exactly what's going on, I don't think it's
critically important that "at cost" has to really mean just the cost of the
parts (who knows...perhaps the vendor is treating his own time as part of
the cost).

I doubt either party thinks that there's any well-stated contract, and they
probably both understand that if the other reneges on the deal, there's
little avenue for recourse.

The fact is, there are still people who trust each other well enough to
enter into such agreements with little or no legal protection. And it
doesn't just happen in cow towns like Iowa City.

>> as long as Jay understands that the "at cost" number is equivalent to
>> buying the parts retail
>
> I would not have understood that to be the case, unless =his= cost is
> retail.

Like I said, it depends on how the vendor is interpreting "cost". But
regardless, my point is that the deal is fair as long as Jay understands
what the retail costs of the parts is. Especially given the customer. It's
not like Jay is going to go out and buy the parts himself and put the thing
together. You think these tech-related threads he starts are long now, just
imagine us trying to talk him to the construction of a computer. :p

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in?
>
> I haven't seen any. I've seen cheap ones though. (ten dollars or so for
> 64 meg).

Uh...I think your clipboard got messed up. :)

In any case, $10 is cheap enough to be effectively free for a device that is
for all practical purposes, infinitely reusable. Beyond that, just look at
the Sunday flyers. If you live in any decent sized city, you've got the
usual chain stores, and they often run promotions in which a USB flash drive
is given away with something you have to buy anyway.

There are other ways to get them free, but the real point is that the cost
of the USB drive is negligible. At least as negligible as using a floppy
drive.

>> And floppies aren't free...they cost on the order of 50 cents each or
>> more.
>
> My last set of floppies was free. I got five hundred.

If you can point me to a vendor that one can reliably get 500 floppies at no
charge, fine. Otherwise, I fail to see what your unique situation has to do
with it.

>> A computer that has a USB controller but does not have USB drivers
>> installed makes no sense whatsoever.
>
> Meet Windows 98. I'm not completely being fair - I have used my camera as
> a thumb drive, and it requires drivers to be downloaded and installed on
> Windows 98 machines.

You aren't understanding. I know that Windows 98 doesn't come with USB
drivers. But a computer that has a USB device *does* come with USB drivers,
and to not install those drivers is silly. Once those drivers are
installed, you don't need additional drives specific to the make or model of
USB flash drive.

Your camera may indeed have its own unique, custom drivers that you can
install on Windows 98. But if it complies with the standard USB disk
controller specifications, the default USB drivers are sufficient.

>> However, it is stupid to generalize that to a claim that
>> a floppy drive is always (or even often) a useful thing to have on a
>> brand-new computer.
>
> I'm not. However I've found that obsolete devices come in handy at the
> oddest times, and for those times I'm really glad I have them.

I have found that obsolete devices only come in handy when dealing with
other obsolete devices. And as I've said, if one can actually anticipate
having to do so, that's fine. But that has nothing to do with whether Jay's
new PC needs a floppy drive, which is what's being discussed here.

>> frankly when most people want to move an email message from one computer
>> to another, they EMAIL it.
>
> That was Apple's solution some years back. It was dumb then, it's dumb
> now. It requires the internet. Floppies don't.

Huh? Apple has always had networking built in. Connect up the Appletalk
cable and you're good to go. Still, my point is that if you got the email,
you *have* the Internet. The fact that moving that email requires the
Internet is no big deal, since it's assured to be present.

On the receiving end, perhaps that's not the case, but just how important
could it be to move email from a PC with an email account to one without.
More significantly, how often would you really need to do this? If
infrequently, then use a CD. If often, then that PC really needs a network
connection.

Not only do I not move anything among our four computers using a floppy, I
have never felt that using our LAN was in any way an inconvenience, even for
the smallest of files (I think the smallest file I've ever moved was
probably only 200 bytes or so). More importantly, if someone is not in a
situation where they necessarily need to deal with obsolete hardware, then
there's no reason to buy obsolete hardware to go with their new PC.

Pete

[Jose[_1_]]

> If you can point me to a vendor that one can reliably get 500 floppies at no
> charge, fine. Otherwise, I fail to see what your unique situation has to do
> with it.

Well, as you say, "just look at the Sunday flyers. If you live in any
decent sized city, you've got the usual chain stores, and they often run
promotions in which..." That's how I got mine. CompUSA if I remember
right. Of course it was some five years ago, back when they were "only"
obsolete. :)

> I know that Windows 98 doesn't come with USB
> drivers. But a computer that has a USB device *does* come with USB drivers,
> and to not install those drivers is silly. Once those drivers are
> installed, you don't need additional drives specific to the make or model of
> USB flash drive.

If I am travelling, and am faced with a Windows 98 computer, I will not
be able to use my USB device (an Olympus camera), even if other USB
devices are on the system. I will not be able to install software on
somebody else's computer.

I've yet to try it with a real thumb drive though.

> Huh? Apple has always had networking built in. Connect up the Appletalk
> cable and you're good to go.

One computer's upstairs. The other is downstairs. The third is across
the street. Floppies work. And the internet is hardly "assured to be
present".

> More importantly, if someone is not in a
> situation where they necessarily need to deal with obsolete hardware, then
> there's no reason to buy obsolete hardware to go with their new PC.

I'm not telling Jay what to buy. I'm just saying not to be so quick to
eliminate the older stuff.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
> Well, as you say, "just look at the Sunday flyers. If you live in any
> decent sized city, you've got the usual chain stores, and they often run
> promotions in which..." That's how I got mine. CompUSA if I remember
> right. Of course it was some five years ago, back when they were "only"
> obsolete. :)

Well, if you can find a promotion like that today, "free" seems accurate
enough. I had a hard enough time finding any vendor publishing retail
prices for floppies. :)

In any case, the real costs associated with the floppy aren't the disks.

> If I am travelling, and am faced with a Windows 98 computer, I will not be
> able to use my USB device (an Olympus camera), even if other USB devices
> are on the system. I will not be able to install software on somebody
> else's computer.
>
> I've yet to try it with a real thumb drive though.

I doubt you would have any trouble, assuming the Windows 98 computer has the
standard USB drivers installed (and I don't see any reason it wouldn't). In
any case, if you are carrying data around while travelling, a CD is still a
much better option. It's not uncommon to run into a PC these days without a
floppy drive, but one without an optical drive is much less usual.

>> Huh? Apple has always had networking built in. Connect up the Appletalk
>> cable and you're good to go.
>
> One computer's upstairs. The other is downstairs. The third is across
> the street. Floppies work. And the internet is hardly "assured to be
> present".

Neither is it guaranteed that the floppy drive will keep working. Still,
both are reasonably reliable, and there are much better alternatives to a
network (Internet or LAN) than floppy drives.

>> More importantly, if someone is not in a situation where they necessarily
>> need to deal with obsolete hardware, then there's no reason to buy
>> obsolete hardware to go with their new PC.
>
> I'm not telling Jay what to buy. I'm just saying not to be so quick to
> eliminate the older stuff.

And I'm saying one should definitely be quick to eliminate the older stuff.
For a small minority of people, there are very specific reasons to maintain
compatibility with obsolete technology. For most people, there is simply no
good reason to bother with a floppy drive, and there are modest reasons to
NOT bother.

Pete

[john smith]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> > If you can point me to a vendor that one can reliably get 500 floppies at
> > no charge, fine. Otherwise, I fail to see what your unique situation
> > has to do with it.

I have several hundred sitting in a cabinet in my basement. I started
out with a case of them 15 years ago.

[Greg B]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote:
>
>> For best speed, set up a striped RAID array of 10,000RPM drives. It'll
>> cost
>> a fortune, but you won't ever spend much time waiting on the disk. :)
>
> Western Digital RAPTOR 160 GB SATA is $229 at CompUSA.

Or the Seagate ST3300655SS - 300GB 15K rpm Serial Attached SCSI or the
ST3300655FC Fibre Channel version.
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/datasheet/disc/ds_cheetah_15k_5.pdf
An array of these will set you back a few AMU's...
;-)

[Jay Honeck]

> There are some people who know for a fact that they will use a floppy drive.
> For everyone else, today there is no good reason to have one.

Agreed. In fact, I tried to remember the last time I used a floppy,
and I think it was earlier this year when my 13 year old daughter
needed to take a Powerpoint presentation to school. For some reason
only a floppy would do -- no CDs allowed -- so I dredged one up out of
our lockbox, from back in the days when we kept our home inventory on
floppies.

Musta been from the '80s...

;-)

Still, for $13, I included it, simply because you never know when you
might need it. If computers continue to progress the way they have, my
new "God System" will end up in my daughter's dorm room in five years,
as a "junk" machine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> The fact is, there are still people who trust each other well enough to
> enter into such agreements with little or no legal protection. And it
> doesn't just happen in cow towns like Iowa City.

"Cow town"? Look, when I lived in Wisconsin, that was applicable.
Here in Iowa, this is PIG country -- get it right, dammit.

;-)

Now, as to whether or not I'm getting this machine "at cost" or not.
This is a gentleman's agreement, little more than a "Hey, that's a cool
idea -- I can help" kind of thing. There's no implied contract (other
than the fact that I'm paying him "x", and he's agreed -- in writing --
to deliver "y") for anything.

If I don't put signs up touting his business, he has no recourse. If
he sells me parts at retail (instead of wholesale), I have no recourse.


Neither of us cares. Both of us are happy. Both will profit. That's
the way we do things in Iowa.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Eric Bartsch]

Jay,

I may be able to stop in on Saturday. Otherwise, I'll have to drop by
and convince the staff to let me see the simulator. Sounds like you are
going to town on upgrading it already...

Eric

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > I may have to find time to drop in this week and see the Kiwi. I'll be
> > in the Iowa City area visiting relatives for the holiday. Sadly the
> > Pilatus will have to stay home as we're driving from Ohio. Are there
> > times that are better or worse to drop by on Tuesday or Wednesday?
>
> Hi Eric --
>
> Mary and I are taking Wed/Thu/Fri off, so if you stop by Wednesday,
> you'll get to meet my small-but-dedicated staff!
>
> And what's this "driving from Ohio" stuff all about?
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> "Cow town"? Look, when I lived in Wisconsin, that was applicable.
> Here in Iowa, this is PIG country -- get it right, dammit.

Okay, my bad. We have both pigs *and* cows here in the Pacific Northwest,
so I'm unaccustomed to the specialization in livestock that exists
elsewhere. :p

> [...]
> Neither of us cares. Both of us are happy. Both will profit. That's
> the way we do things in Iowa.

That's pretty much what I figured. And for the record, it's not unique to
Iowa, or even to rural areas. I'm sure that, just as here in a more urban
setting we still engage in informal agreements like the one in this thread,
in Iowa people still use legal contracts for a variety of other business
agreements.

Pete

[john smith]

In article om>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Agreed. In fact, I tried to remember the last time I used a floppy,
> and I think it was earlier this year when my 13 year old daughter
> needed to take a Powerpoint presentation to school. For some reason
> only a floppy would do -- no CDs allowed -- so I dredged one up out of
> our lockbox, from back in the days when we kept our home inventory on
> floppies.

My kids each have a USB flash drive for transporting files between home
and school.

[Martin Hotze]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:53:34 -0800, Peter Duniho wrote:

>I haven't bought a computer with a floppy drive in five years, and probably
>haven't even used a floppy drive in three. A floppy drive is just a dust
>collector these days.

So how do you update a BIOS?

>Pete

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Martin Hotze]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 17:35:03 -0800, Peter Duniho wrote:

>The USB flash drives all act as a
>standard disk controller, and the standard Windows USB drivers recognize it
>as such.

no sir.

each USB stick needs is own set of drivers (unless you find some with the
sam chipset). But I agree, mostly these drivers come with a small cd-rom.

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Martin Hotze]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:23:12 -0800, Peter Duniho wrote:

>Once those drivers are
>installed, you don't need additional drives specific to the make or model of
>USB flash drive.

it shows that you never used a USB stick on a win98 machine.

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> it shows that you never used a USB stick on a win98 machine.

I have. I have no idea why you would say I haven't.

In any case, the question is irrelevant to the different question of whether
one should by default choose to install a floppy drive on a new PC.

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>>The USB flash drives all act as a
>>standard disk controller, and the standard Windows USB drivers recognize
>>it
>>as such.
>
> no sir.

Yes sir.

> each USB stick needs is own set of drivers (unless you find some with the
> sam chipset). But I agree, mostly these drivers come with a small cd-rom.

Baloney. The USB drives have the same disk controller interface found on a
variety of other USB-attached storage devices, and they all comply with the
standard supported in Windows. You do not need to go around installing
drivers specific to your USB flash drive just to get your flash drive to
work.

This is, in fact, one of the reasons that USB flash drives have become so
ubiquitous. Modern PCs already have all the software required in order to
display them as standard file storage devices. You just plug them in and
they work.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>>I haven't bought a computer with a floppy drive in five years, and
>>probably
>>haven't even used a floppy drive in three. A floppy drive is just a dust
>>collector these days.
>
> So how do you update a BIOS?

You get a motherboard that doesn't require a floppy to do so. In some
cases, this involves booting from a CD, in other cases, the motherboard has
a BIOS mechanism that works from within Windows (and sometimes even other
operating systems).

What are you doing over there? Is all your computer hardware stuck in the
20th century? All of your comments seem to ignore all of the progress that
hardware manufacturers have made in the last ten years. It's like you've
never seen a PC that could be operated without a floppy drive before. They
exist, and these days are in the majority.

Pete

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> If computers continue to progress the way they have, my new "God System"
> will end up in my daughter's dorm room in five years,
> as a "junk" machine.


Ain't gonna happen.

Daddy's little girl is getting a new (2011 model year) machine, to help her
get the most out of that $57,000/year education you'll be footing the bill
for.

At $570, her NEW computer system will be 1% of her first year college
expenses.


Montblack

[Jay Honeck]

> Daddy's little girl is getting a new (2011 model year) machine, to help her
> get the most out of that $57,000/year education you'll be footing the bill
> for.
>
> At $570, her NEW computer system will be 1% of her first year college
> expenses.

Geez, you couldn't have depressed me any more than THIS. What a way to
kick a guy -- and on the day before Thanksgiving!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blanche]

Peter Duniho > wrote:
>"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
>>>The USB flash drives all act as a
>>>standard disk controller, and the standard Windows USB drivers recognize
>>>it
>>>as such.
>>
>> no sir.
>
>Yes sir.
>
>> each USB stick needs is own set of drivers (unless you find some with the
>> sam chipset). But I agree, mostly these drivers come with a small cd-rom.
>
>Baloney. The USB drives have the same disk controller interface found on a
>variety of other USB-attached storage devices, and they all comply with the
>standard supported in Windows. You do not need to go around installing
>drivers specific to your USB flash drive just to get your flash drive to
>work.
>
>This is, in fact, one of the reasons that USB flash drives have become so
>ubiquitous. Modern PCs already have all the software required in order to
>display them as standard file storage devices. You just plug them in and
>they work.

I finished a lesson Tuesday afternoon an noticed a Gulfstream on the
ramp, getting fuel and *kinda* getting ready to go. The copilot was
layin on the ground under the nose trying to reconnect something to
do with the gear (and yes, he's an A&P as well as a pilot). So I went
sightseeing and started chatting with the pilot. He was bored out of
his mind updating the FMS. A Rockwell Collins FMS. Jepp sends out a
CD with the updates but they can't use it. But, having the subscription,
they go on the Jepp website and download 5 floppy disks, then sped
45 min. or so doing the updates.

According to the pilot, no way to upgrade the FMS to use the CD.
What he really wants is the ability to use a USB drive with the
database for the upgrade! He can't even connect his laptop to the
system to do the upgrade from the CD.

There really are situations where us spam cans have an easier time
doing software upgrades to our equipment.

[Newps]

Blanche wrote:


>
> According to the pilot, no way to upgrade the FMS to use the CD.
> What he really wants is the ability to use a USB drive with the
> database for the upgrade! He can't even connect his laptop to the
> system to do the upgrade from the CD.




That is more than likely a certification issue with the FMS, not a
hardware or software issue.

[john smith]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:23:12 -0800, Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> >Once those drivers are
> >installed, you don't need additional drives specific to the make or model of
> >USB flash drive.
>
> it shows that you never used a USB stick on a win98 machine.

Martin is correct. Win98 machines are very finicky when it comes to USB
devices. Some work, some don't. Win98 was the first implementation of
USB. It is the combination of hardware and software that determines
whether it will work with ones system.

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> I don't WANT to update a BIOS using a OS. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned,
> but that's the way it is.

Then why did you ask "how do you update a BIOS"?

If you specifically don't want to use alternatives to using a floppy drive,
then you're stuck using a floppy drive. Duh. It's a self-fulfilling
prophecy.

But that in no way is relevant to the question of whether a floppy drive is
necessary (except in the degenerate case of when you specifically *want* a
floppy drive).

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 15:53:34 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:
> I haven't bought a computer with a floppy drive in five years, and probably
> haven't even used a floppy drive in three. A floppy drive is just a dust
> collector these days.

I still keep an old laptop with a floppy drive in the closet and it is
configured such that I can quickly add it to the network if there is
something on a floppy that I have to copy to one of my machines... I
also have a couple of 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives that I can
temporarily add to a machine if necessary... Instead of one of the
memory stick USB drives, I use a CompactFlash card reader and use the
CF card that I retired from my digital camera after I replaced it with
a 2G card... About the only time I use a floppy these days is if I'm
upgrading the BIOS on an older machine and the procedure requires me
to boot from floppy... It don't need to floppy often, but I'm not
willing to completely give them up yet...

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On 22 Nov 2006 04:34:17 -0800, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:
> "Cow town"? Look, when I lived in Wisconsin, that was applicable.
> Here in Iowa, this is PIG country -- get it right, dammit.

One of the reasons that you can't find real BBQ in Iowa also...

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 11:47:13 GMT, Grumman-581
> wrote:

>I still keep an old laptop with a floppy drive in the closet and it is
>configured such that I can quickly add it to the network if there is
>something on a floppy that I have to copy to one of my machines... I
>also have a couple of 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives that I can
>temporarily add to a machine if necessary... Instead of one of the
>memory stick USB drives, I use a CompactFlash card reader and use the
>CF card that I retired from my digital camera after I replaced it with
>a 2G card... About the only time I use a floppy these days is if I'm
>upgrading the BIOS on an older machine and the procedure requires me
>to boot from floppy... It don't need to floppy often, but I'm not
>willing to completely give them up yet...

I picked up an external USB floppy drive and hook it up to the
machine I want to copy the files to. I think they sell for like $30
now.