Letters on Class B altitude indications on charts

[Mxsmanic]

I notice on the San Francisco TAC that there are letters next to the
altitude indications for the different areas of the Class B airspace.
I don't recall seeing these before on a TAC. The legend says only
"letters identify areas." The SFO TAC is fairly new; perhaps this
will be done with all TACs?

Anyway, I presume that this letter is given just to facilitate
identification of a specific part of the Class B when communicating
with ATC. Is this right? That would be the most obvious explanation,
I think. If so, does this mean that I would ask for clearance into a
specific sector of the Class B now?

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[Kingfish]

Mxsmanic wrote:
If so, does this mean that I would ask for clearance into a
> specific sector of the Class B now?
>

Does your flight sim talk to you now?

[Don Tuite]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:06:38 +0100, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>I notice on the San Francisco TAC that there are letters next to the
>altitude indications for the different areas of the Class B airspace.
>I don't recall seeing these before on a TAC. The legend says only
>"letters identify areas." The SFO TAC is fairly new; perhaps this
>will be done with all TACs?
>
>Anyway, I presume that this letter is given just to facilitate
>identification of a specific part of the Class B when communicating
>with ATC. Is this right? That would be the most obvious explanation,
>I think. If so, does this mean that I would ask for clearance into a
>specific sector of the Class B now?

No. It's all about flying under the Bravo. The letters refer to the
Echo and Golf airspace.

Suppose I want to depart Half Moon Bay with a passenger and show her
the sights of the city -- fly over the Golden Gate Bridge and
Alcatraz.

For the first part of the flight, I know that if I want to hug the
shoreline (stay in I), I have to fly below 1500 feet. But if I stay
more than 7 nautical miles DME from the SFO VORTAC while flying up the
coast, I'll be in F, so I'll be clear of the Bravo as long as I am
below 2100 feet. Once I'm more than 10 nm DME from the VORTAC (or
halfway between the north end of Lake Merced and the south windmill at
Golden Gate Park, I'm clear of the Bravo if I stay below 3000 ft.

Don

[Mxsmanic]

Kingfish writes:

> Does your flight sim talk to you now?

It simulates ATC. I can also connect to VATSIM, and talk to real
people who are engaged in simulation as pilots or ATC.

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[Mxsmanic]

Don Tuite writes:

> No. It's all about flying under the Bravo. The letters refer to the
> Echo and Golf airspace.
>
> Suppose I want to depart Half Moon Bay with a passenger and show her
> the sights of the city -- fly over the Golden Gate Bridge and
> Alcatraz.
>
> For the first part of the flight, I know that if I want to hug the
> shoreline (stay in I), I have to fly below 1500 feet. But if I stay
> more than 7 nautical miles DME from the SFO VORTAC while flying up the
> coast, I'll be in F, so I'll be clear of the Bravo as long as I am
> below 2100 feet. Once I'm more than 10 nm DME from the VORTAC (or
> halfway between the north end of Lake Merced and the south windmill at
> Golden Gate Park, I'm clear of the Bravo if I stay below 3000 ft.

The letters run well past E and G. It looks like they go at least
through K.

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[J. Severyn]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Don Tuite writes:
>
>
> The letters run well past E and G. It looks like they go at least
> through K.
>
They are merely the IDs of the sectors used by Bay Approach (now Norcal
Approach)

John Severyn
@KLVK

[Don Tuite]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 19:19:50 +0100, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>Don Tuite writes:
>
>> No. It's all about flying under the Bravo. The letters refer to the
>> Echo and Golf airspace.
>>
>> Suppose I want to depart Half Moon Bay with a passenger and show her
>> the sights of the city -- fly over the Golden Gate Bridge and
>> Alcatraz.
>>
>> For the first part of the flight, I know that if I want to hug the
>> shoreline (stay in I), I have to fly below 1500 feet. But if I stay
>> more than 7 nautical miles DME from the SFO VORTAC while flying up the
>> coast, I'll be in F, so I'll be clear of the Bravo as long as I am
>> below 2100 feet. Once I'm more than 10 nm DME from the VORTAC (or
>> halfway between the north end of Lake Merced and the south windmill at
>> Golden Gate Park, I'm clear of the Bravo if I stay below 3000 ft.
>
>The letters run well past E and G. It looks like they go at least
>through K.

So what? They are regions of airspace under the Bravo where I can go
without runing into heavies and without talking to anybody as long as
I stay under the Bravo and above the Deltas for San Carlos, Palo Alto,
Moffett, Hayward, and Livermore.

(And above San Jose's Charlie. Oakland's Charlie extends upward all
the way to the bottom of the SFO Bravo, but it has a 1500-foot floor
over the Potrero and SOMA neighborhoods of SF and across the Bay
Bridge to downtown Oakland.)

Why so many notches in the airspace under the Bravo? Because there
are three major jetports inside the SFO mode-C veil, one
quasi-government field where the POTUS and Veep fly into when they
come to town, five towered GA fields[1], and two non-towered fields.
In addition, there are 2000-foot mountain ridges down either side of
SF Bay, except some of those mountains get to be 3000 to 4000 feet
high at the south end.

And I think K is an aerobatic practice area.

Don
[1] RHV is just outside the veil.

[Mxsmanic]

J. Severyn writes:

> They are merely the IDs of the sectors used by Bay Approach (now Norcal
> Approach)

So I presume these will appear in all Class B airspaces as the charts
are renewed? I note that this chart is more recent than the others.

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[Mxsmanic]

Don Tuite writes:

> So what? They are regions of airspace under the Bravo where I can go
> without runing into heavies and without talking to anybody as long as
> I stay under the Bravo and above the Deltas for San Carlos, Palo Alto,
> Moffett, Hayward, and Livermore.

Yes, but these letters clearly refer to the Class B airspace, not
areas outside that airspace.

> (And above San Jose's Charlie. Oakland's Charlie extends upward all
> the way to the bottom of the SFO Bravo, but it has a 1500-foot floor
> over the Potrero and SOMA neighborhoods of SF and across the Bay
> Bridge to downtown Oakland.)

Yes, the chart agrees with you, although I'm not sure I see the
relevance of this.

> Why so many notches in the airspace under the Bravo? Because there
> are three major jetports inside the SFO mode-C veil, one
> quasi-government field where the POTUS and Veep fly into when they
> come to town, five towered GA fields[1], and two non-towered fields.
> In addition, there are 2000-foot mountain ridges down either side of
> SF Bay, except some of those mountains get to be 3000 to 4000 feet
> high at the south end.

See above.

> And I think K is an aerobatic practice area.

I don't see any notation of this on the chart, and the K sector itself
starts at 5000 feet. I presume people are not cleared into Class B
for the purpose of aerobatics.

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[Don Tuite]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 01:08:41 +0100, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>Don Tuite writes:
>
>> So what? They are regions of airspace under the Bravo where I can go
>> without runing into heavies and without talking to anybody as long as
>> I stay under the Bravo and above the Deltas for San Carlos, Palo Alto,
>> Moffett, Hayward, and Livermore.
>
>Yes, but these letters clearly refer to the Class B airspace, not
>areas outside that airspace.
>
>> (And above San Jose's Charlie. Oakland's Charlie extends upward all
>> the way to the bottom of the SFO Bravo, but it has a 1500-foot floor
>> over the Potrero and SOMA neighborhoods of SF and across the Bay
>> Bridge to downtown Oakland.)
>
>Yes, the chart agrees with you, although I'm not sure I see the
>relevance of this.
>
>> Why so many notches in the airspace under the Bravo? Because there
>> are three major jetports inside the SFO mode-C veil, one
>> quasi-government field where the POTUS and Veep fly into when they
>> come to town, five towered GA fields[1], and two non-towered fields.
>> In addition, there are 2000-foot mountain ridges down either side of
>> SF Bay, except some of those mountains get to be 3000 to 4000 feet
>> high at the south end.
>
>See above.
>
>> And I think K is an aerobatic practice area.
>
>I don't see any notation of this on the chart, and the K sector itself
>starts at 5000 feet. I presume people are not cleared into Class B
>for the purpose of aerobatics.

plonk

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Kingfish wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> If so, does this mean that I would ask for clearance into a
> > specific sector of the Class B now?
> >
>
> Does your flight sim talk to you now?

What has talking flight sims got to do with chart symbology?

[Dave Stadt]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Kingfish writes:
>
>> Does your flight sim talk to you now?
>
> It simulates ATC. I can also connect to VATSIM, and talk to real
> people who are engaged in simulation as pilots or ATC.
>
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Rod Serling could have done another couple of decades just on your
definition of 'real.'