My first solo - and the worst flight of my life

[Monarch Student[_1_]]

I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
for this long.

Until today.

We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
altitude", he says.

We come in for a landing, on a regular runway with no displaced
threshold. He's yelling to keep it at 70 and pitches the yoke down.
We're headed directly for the grass in front of the runway. I ask if
we can land about fifty feet farther in because at this angle we'll be
right on the grass/lights. McKinney is over 6k long, so we have room.
And it's 2 days before Thanksgiving so hardly any traffic is present.

He says no (seemed like a reasonable request), yells, yells more and
my landing which is now low because of our airspeed and him not
allowing me to slightly power it to make it farther in, sucks. We
stop on the runway, and next pattern he simulates an engine failure. I
pitch for about 70, and get, "SIXTY-EIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR ****ING BEST
GLIDE? SIXTY-EIGHT!!". There's no way to make it to the runway, at
all even with 68. I get yelled at for being too far away, but the
tower asked us to be because of incoming traffic.

Jake smashes in the throttle and yells "GO AROUND!", forcing the yoke
forward because the nose pitched up (thanks to him hammering the
throttle in) then yelling at me for that.

At this point, I'm ready just to go home. But I consider it wasted
money, and probably better to let him scream for 10 more minutes and
I'll probably get to solo.

Sure enough, after two more landings I solo. "DON'T RUN ME OVER WHEN
YOU ****ING COME BACK", he says.

90 downwind, tight pattern, smooth landings. The McKinney tower guy
even told my instructor after he got back in that my pattern and
landings looked great, but I forgot to announce my callsign once, I
didn't center line all the landings, etc etc all announced on the
tower frequency. Thanks McKinney ATC guy! *sigh*

We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
hell out of his face.

So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
"significantly better than average".

How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in? Does
asking for a new one (preferrably with some experience) label me as a
problem student with the school?

Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
more comfortable with it?

Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

[Robert M. Gary]

Were you paraphrasing or was your instructor actualy using the F word?
That is usually a sign of a CFI who isn't in control of the situation.
A good CFI shows little emotion in the cockpit. We also know how to
only sweat on the right side (the student should never see you sweat).
;) I've not been in a situation with a student where I've lost my cool,
I can't imagine what that situation would be. If you're not happy with
a student's airspeed control you just tell them. No reason to get upset
about it. As the CFI you get to fly tomorrow either way, the student
may not ;)

-Robert, CFII

[Jose[_1_]]

> So should I get a new instructor?

Definately.

I presume from your second sentence that this is his MO. Let him
practice on somebody else.

> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in?

You're not "this far in". You're far enough in so that it would be good
to see different approaches to flying.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Aluckyguess]

If what you say is true, he shouldn't be instructing. I would report him to
the fbo and get a new instructer.


"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
>I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
> We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
> and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
> my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
> look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
> the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
> yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
> altitude", he says.
>
> We come in for a landing, on a regular runway with no displaced
> threshold. He's yelling to keep it at 70 and pitches the yoke down.
> We're headed directly for the grass in front of the runway. I ask if
> we can land about fifty feet farther in because at this angle we'll be
> right on the grass/lights. McKinney is over 6k long, so we have room.
> And it's 2 days before Thanksgiving so hardly any traffic is present.
>
> He says no (seemed like a reasonable request), yells, yells more and
> my landing which is now low because of our airspeed and him not
> allowing me to slightly power it to make it farther in, sucks. We
> stop on the runway, and next pattern he simulates an engine failure. I
> pitch for about 70, and get, "SIXTY-EIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR ****ING BEST
> GLIDE? SIXTY-EIGHT!!". There's no way to make it to the runway, at
> all even with 68. I get yelled at for being too far away, but the
> tower asked us to be because of incoming traffic.
>
> Jake smashes in the throttle and yells "GO AROUND!", forcing the yoke
> forward because the nose pitched up (thanks to him hammering the
> throttle in) then yelling at me for that.
>
> At this point, I'm ready just to go home. But I consider it wasted
> money, and probably better to let him scream for 10 more minutes and
> I'll probably get to solo.
>
> Sure enough, after two more landings I solo. "DON'T RUN ME OVER WHEN
> YOU ****ING COME BACK", he says.
>
> 90 downwind, tight pattern, smooth landings. The McKinney tower guy
> even told my instructor after he got back in that my pattern and
> landings looked great, but I forgot to announce my callsign once, I
> didn't center line all the landings, etc etc all announced on the
> tower frequency. Thanks McKinney ATC guy! *sigh*
>
> We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
> Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
> not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
> with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
> congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
> see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
> hell out of his face.
>
> So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
> being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
> senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
> "significantly better than average".
>
> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in? Does
> asking for a new one (preferrably with some experience) label me as a
> problem student with the school?
>
> Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
> more comfortable with it?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

[Peter Duniho]

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
> being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
> senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
> "significantly better than average".

OF COURSE YOU ****ING SHOULD GET A NEW INSTRUCTOR!

:)

Seriously though, I didn't even have to finish your first paragraph
describing your flight to know that you need a new instructor. There is
*absolutely* to place for abuse of any sort in any kind of teaching
relationship. It's simply not necessary, no matter how successful some
people may have found it in the past.

Yelling, profanity, jerking the flight controls, and hitting the student
have no place in the cockpit (unless you're under attack by a hijacker, of
course :) ). Get as far away from this instructor as possible, and if he is
working for a flight school, make sure that his supervisor and/or the owner
of the flight school are familiar with your experience.

Frankly, I'd say that if they don't fire the guy outright, you ought to find
a new school entirely. But I don't know what your situation is and I don't
know whether there are actually other flight schools around (though, in that
part of Texas I'd think there would be).

> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in? Does
> asking for a new one (preferrably with some experience) label me as a
> problem student with the school?

No, not at all. And again, you should make it very clear to the school that
the instructor is the one with the problem. He shouldn't be working there
at all.

If you went through a half-dozen instructors and still couldn't find one you
liked, that might be an indication of a problem. But switching once doesn't
even come close to suggesting a problem with the student.

In any case, it really doesn't matter how far into your training you are.
You stand to lose WAY more if you stick with this instructor than if you
switch and work with one that can teach in a respectful manner. I don't
know exactly what your instructor's problem is, but until he gets his own
issues under control, he's got no business being involved in flight
instruction.

> Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
> more comfortable with it?

That depends on the situation. But regardless of whether your performance
meets the criteria, it needs to be communicated in a respectful way.

> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

It is fun. The only reason you're not having fun is that your instructor
sucks. Find a new instructor. Make sure that your instructor is making the
flying fun. If he is not, either explain to him that you need the lessons
to be fun or find an instructor who already understands that.

Learning *anything* can be and should be fun. A good teacher understands
this. But especially in flying, there's absolutely no reason that almost
every flight you make shouldn't be just a huge amount of fun. You're
FLYING!

Pete

[Robert M. Gary]

One more thought. At an FBO CFIs are usually held to a standard for how
long to get a student to solo, etc. If a student is coming in regularly
the chief instructor will expect they will solo in 20 hours or so. If a
CFI isn't signing a student off after 30 hours the chief instructor
usually wonders if there is a problem with the CFI (and often will ask
to fly with the student himself to determine what is wrong, the CFI or
the student). Perhaps this CFI was under pressure to solo you and
rather than ask for help and advise from the other CFIs, he tried to
push you through before he felt comfortable?? Just a guess.
When I was doing J-3 training we were told that if someone didn't get
their tailwheel endorsement in 7 hours the chief instructor flew with
them (i.e took your student). He told us that we should be able to get
anyone signed off in under 7 hours. Its probably a good idea but I can
see how it could get some CFIs into trouble if they have too much
pride.

-Robert, CFII

[Aluckyguess]

If what you say is true, he shouldn't be instructing. I would report him to
the fbo and get a new instructer.


"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
>I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
> We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
> and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
> my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
> look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
> the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
> yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
> altitude", he says.
>
> We come in for a landing, on a regular runway with no displaced
> threshold. He's yelling to keep it at 70 and pitches the yoke down.
> We're headed directly for the grass in front of the runway. I ask if
> we can land about fifty feet farther in because at this angle we'll be
> right on the grass/lights. McKinney is over 6k long, so we have room.
> And it's 2 days before Thanksgiving so hardly any traffic is present.
>
> He says no (seemed like a reasonable request), yells, yells more and
> my landing which is now low because of our airspeed and him not
> allowing me to slightly power it to make it farther in, sucks. We
> stop on the runway, and next pattern he simulates an engine failure. I
> pitch for about 70, and get, "SIXTY-EIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR ****ING BEST
> GLIDE? SIXTY-EIGHT!!". There's no way to make it to the runway, at
> all even with 68. I get yelled at for being too far away, but the
> tower asked us to be because of incoming traffic.
>
> Jake smashes in the throttle and yells "GO AROUND!", forcing the yoke
> forward because the nose pitched up (thanks to him hammering the
> throttle in) then yelling at me for that.
>
> At this point, I'm ready just to go home. But I consider it wasted
> money, and probably better to let him scream for 10 more minutes and
> I'll probably get to solo.
>
> Sure enough, after two more landings I solo. "DON'T RUN ME OVER WHEN
> YOU ****ING COME BACK", he says.
>
> 90 downwind, tight pattern, smooth landings. The McKinney tower guy
> even told my instructor after he got back in that my pattern and
> landings looked great, but I forgot to announce my callsign once, I
> didn't center line all the landings, etc etc all announced on the
> tower frequency. Thanks McKinney ATC guy! *sigh*
>
> We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
> Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
> not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
> with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
> congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
> see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
> hell out of his face.
>
> So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
> being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
> senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
> "significantly better than average".
>
> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in? Does
> asking for a new one (preferrably with some experience) label me as a
> problem student with the school?
>
> Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
> more comfortable with it?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Monarch Student > posted:

> I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
(rest snipped for brevity)

Not knowing either you or your instructor, the best suggestion that I can
offer is that not all people have compatible personalities. It should not
be a problem to ask for a different instructor, and perhaps you will find
one that is more to your liking. Keep in mind that the instructors aren't
paying you, and if the experience is not fruitful, it is not their money
that is lost.

Neil

[Dudley Henriques]

Well, first of all, congratulations for not killing yourself under a first
solo condition I would consider possibly one of the worst I've ever seen in
print.
Secondly, if I were you, I'd never fly with this outfit again and find
another CFI immediately.
This assumes of course that what you have related here is true word for
word. If YOU on the other hand, are part of this problem I'd do a serious
self evaluation on the entire situation before flying again. Either way,
what I've read here describes a VERY dangerous situation that needs
correcting immediately, as I see it as a serious flight safety issue.
Dudley Henriques

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
>I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
> We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
> and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
> my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
> look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
> the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
> yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
> altitude", he says.
>
> We come in for a landing, on a regular runway with no displaced
> threshold. He's yelling to keep it at 70 and pitches the yoke down.
> We're headed directly for the grass in front of the runway. I ask if
> we can land about fifty feet farther in because at this angle we'll be
> right on the grass/lights. McKinney is over 6k long, so we have room.
> And it's 2 days before Thanksgiving so hardly any traffic is present.
>
> He says no (seemed like a reasonable request), yells, yells more and
> my landing which is now low because of our airspeed and him not
> allowing me to slightly power it to make it farther in, sucks. We
> stop on the runway, and next pattern he simulates an engine failure. I
> pitch for about 70, and get, "SIXTY-EIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR ****ING BEST
> GLIDE? SIXTY-EIGHT!!". There's no way to make it to the runway, at
> all even with 68. I get yelled at for being too far away, but the
> tower asked us to be because of incoming traffic.
>
> Jake smashes in the throttle and yells "GO AROUND!", forcing the yoke
> forward because the nose pitched up (thanks to him hammering the
> throttle in) then yelling at me for that.
>
> At this point, I'm ready just to go home. But I consider it wasted
> money, and probably better to let him scream for 10 more minutes and
> I'll probably get to solo.
>
> Sure enough, after two more landings I solo. "DON'T RUN ME OVER WHEN
> YOU ****ING COME BACK", he says.
>
> 90 downwind, tight pattern, smooth landings. The McKinney tower guy
> even told my instructor after he got back in that my pattern and
> landings looked great, but I forgot to announce my callsign once, I
> didn't center line all the landings, etc etc all announced on the
> tower frequency. Thanks McKinney ATC guy! *sigh*
>
> We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
> Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
> not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
> with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
> congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
> see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
> hell out of his face.
>
> So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
> being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
> senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
> "significantly better than average".
>
> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in? Does
> asking for a new one (preferrably with some experience) label me as a
> problem student with the school?
>
> Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
> more comfortable with it?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, said:
>So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human

Yes, definitely. Remember, he's your employee - if he's not working out
for you, fire him and get a new one.

There are probably students out there who like that sort of attitude, but
I wasn't one, and it sounds like you're not one, so dump him.

And landing a bit beyond the numbers is perfectly acceptable - as a matter
of fact, it's recommended.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
If men are from Mars and women are from Venus, there's going to be one
big-ass fight over where to set the thermostat.
-- Jim Rosenberg

[mike regish]

You shouldn't even be asking this question.

mike

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
>
> So should I get a new instructor?

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message

<Snip>
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

After the first yelling at, I would have simply said: "You're fired!" and
landed the aircraft. I would then have paid for the time in the a/c,
however, at the solo rate. You should not have to pay someone to treat you
like that. You are paying them. They are working for you.
Get another instructor. Hell, I'd probably even get a whole new school if
you can.
Oz/Crash Lander

[Matt Whiting]

Monarch Student wrote:
> I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
> We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
> and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
> my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
> look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
> the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
> yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
> altitude", he says.
>
> We come in for a landing, on a regular runway with no displaced
> threshold. He's yelling to keep it at 70 and pitches the yoke down.
> We're headed directly for the grass in front of the runway. I ask if
> we can land about fifty feet farther in because at this angle we'll be
> right on the grass/lights. McKinney is over 6k long, so we have room.
> And it's 2 days before Thanksgiving so hardly any traffic is present.
>
> He says no (seemed like a reasonable request), yells, yells more and
> my landing which is now low because of our airspeed and him not
> allowing me to slightly power it to make it farther in, sucks. We
> stop on the runway, and next pattern he simulates an engine failure. I
> pitch for about 70, and get, "SIXTY-EIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR ****ING BEST
> GLIDE? SIXTY-EIGHT!!". There's no way to make it to the runway, at
> all even with 68. I get yelled at for being too far away, but the
> tower asked us to be because of incoming traffic.
>
> Jake smashes in the throttle and yells "GO AROUND!", forcing the yoke
> forward because the nose pitched up (thanks to him hammering the
> throttle in) then yelling at me for that.
>
> At this point, I'm ready just to go home. But I consider it wasted
> money, and probably better to let him scream for 10 more minutes and
> I'll probably get to solo.
>
> Sure enough, after two more landings I solo. "DON'T RUN ME OVER WHEN
> YOU ****ING COME BACK", he says.
>
> 90 downwind, tight pattern, smooth landings. The McKinney tower guy
> even told my instructor after he got back in that my pattern and
> landings looked great, but I forgot to announce my callsign once, I
> didn't center line all the landings, etc etc all announced on the
> tower frequency. Thanks McKinney ATC guy! *sigh*
>
> We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
> Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
> not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
> with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
> congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
> see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
> hell out of his face.
>
> So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
> being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
> senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
> "significantly better than average".

If this was a one-time event, then I'd be inclined to chalk it up to a
bad day. If this is just the highest escalation in a series of such
behavior, then I'd find another instructor. Learning to fly should be fun.

My primary instructor was an old-time instructor who didn't believe in
head phones so he yelled all the time! But I knew that he wasn't mad,
it was just his style. He'd occasionally get frustrated, but once back
on the ground he was completely back to normal, debriefing the lesson
and talking about the next one. Always positive and looking forward.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Were you paraphrasing or was your instructor actualy using the F word?
> That is usually a sign of a CFI who isn't in control of the situation.
> A good CFI shows little emotion in the cockpit. We also know how to
> only sweat on the right side (the student should never see you sweat).
> ;) I've not been in a situation with a student where I've lost my cool,
> I can't imagine what that situation would be. If you're not happy with
> a student's airspeed control you just tell them. No reason to get upset
> about it. As the CFI you get to fly tomorrow either way, the student
> may not ;)

I tried to land me and my instructor in a corn field along side the
runway early in my training (pre-solo). I was cross controlled for a
cross wind and all of the sudden my partially trained brain decided that
wasn't right and I cranked in aileron in concert with the rudder I was
holding and off toward the corn field we went. Once about 75 feet off
the center line and maybe 30 feet about the corn, Dick said "get the
throttle in" (he actually said it twice, a little louder the second
time!), which I did and he slipped us back over the runway and landed.
He couldn't get to the throttle has in the little C150 he always had is
left arm behind the pilot's seat.

He laughed about it the rest of the day and told everyone I was the
first student who had tried to kill him that day. I figured if trying
to kill a man didn't get him angry, then he was a pretty good instructor!


Matt

[Ron Lee]

Monarch Student > wrote:

>We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
>Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
>not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
>with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
>congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
>see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
>hell out of his face.

That others were on egg shells around him sounds bad. Find another
instructor or FBO. Then look forward to a flight like this:

http://tinyurl.com/y78c8s

Ron Lee

[J. Severyn]

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
>I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
> We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
> and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
> my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I

That's enough, I don't need to hear more. Very simple: switch instructors.
He/she works for you, do not accept this behavior from your employee. Since
you said there are at least 4 other instructors in the FBO, go talk to them
(interview a replacement). You'll get a better instructor (for sure) and
you'll get the benefit of another CFI's experience. You will lose very
little of your investment as the records of your training are verified in
both your logbook and the FBO files. Do it.

Have fun getting your PVT,
John Severyn
@KLVK

[[email protected]]

Monarch Student wrote:

> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

Someday you will be PIC of the aircraft. Today you are PIC in charge
of your flying education. Take control.

Fire this guy. He needs it, as it will probably be the only way he
will learn the lesson HE needs to learn. Getting fired by a student is
a pretty clear rebuke, and if his behavior was described acurately he
needs it.

You will not be the first person to ditch an instructor. Sometimes you
just don't get along; sometimes the instructor shouldn't be in the
airplane (such as in this case probably).

I fired an instructor once, and the situation was not as bad as yours.
I stayed with the same school, got a new instructor (who had flown for
the Czechoslovakian Air Force) who had a much more professional
attitude, and thereafter got my certificate.

There are no downsides to getting rid of an instructor of the type you
describe. Get back to enjoying flying. This is not marine boot camp.

[Jim Logajan]

Monarch Student > wrote:
> So should I get a new instructor?

At your instructor might say - "**** yes!"

;-)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> Well, first of all, congratulations for not killing yourself under a first
> solo condition I would consider possibly one of the worst I've ever seen in
> print.



You know, Dudley, when I read his story my first thought was we were being
trolled (again). There's been a lot of that here lately.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:

> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> Well, first of all, congratulations for not killing yourself under a
>> first solo condition I would consider possibly one of the worst I've
>> ever seen in print.
>
> You know, Dudley, when I read his story my first thought was we were
> being trolled (again). There's been a lot of that here lately.

I had the same thought - almost too outrageous to believe it really happened as described.

If it did, I agree with everyone else - he should run, not walk, to a new instructor or flight school if
necessary.

Mike

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> Well, first of all, congratulations for not killing yourself under a
>> first
>> solo condition I would consider possibly one of the worst I've ever seen
>> in
>> print.
>
>
>
> You know, Dudley, when I read his story my first thought was we were being
> trolled (again). There's been a lot of that here lately.

Could be Mort.
What I usually do with posts like this one is answer it anyway, handling it
seriously initially. If its legit, the OP gets a useful answer. If its a
troll, the answer simply uses the OP as a bounce to inform the rest of the
group on how to handle such a situation (from my point of view anyway
:-).
In other words, for the purpose of useful signal transfer, its a win/ win
situation for the first response.
Dudley Henriques

[Jay Beckman]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Monarch Student wrote:
>
>> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
>> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.
>
> Someday you will be PIC of the aircraft. Today you are PIC in charge
> of your flying education. Take control.
>
> Fire this guy. He needs it, as it will probably be the only way he
> will learn the lesson HE needs to learn. Getting fired by a student is
> a pretty clear rebuke, and if his behavior was described acurately he
> needs it.
>
> You will not be the first person to ditch an instructor. Sometimes you
> just don't get along; sometimes the instructor shouldn't be in the
> airplane (such as in this case probably).
>
> I fired an instructor once, and the situation was not as bad as yours.
> I stayed with the same school, got a new instructor (who had flown for
> the Czechoslovakian Air Force) who had a much more professional
> attitude, and thereafter got my certificate.
>
> There are no downsides to getting rid of an instructor of the type you
> describe. Get back to enjoying flying. This is not marine boot camp.

IMO, this post says it all perfectly....

Run, do not walk away from this guy. Report his behavior to his employer
and take your money elsewhere, pronto.

Oh, and congrats on the solo. Under the circumstances, you done good.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[RK Henry]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:34:35 -0600, Monarch Student
> wrote:

>So should I get a new instructor?

In my personal experience, there is are advantages to having several
different instructors. You get to see other points of view, varying
instructing styles, and a wider range of experience when you have more
CFI names in your logbook. As time goes by and you accumulate ratings,
flight reviews, etc., you'll end up having flown with lots of
different people. You'll learn more from several different people than
you would from just one person, unless that person is really
exceptional.

>How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in?

Well, since no one else seemed to have mentioned it, congrats. You've
reached a significant milestone. This would be an excellent time to
switch.

>Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
>more comfortable with it?

Well he's right there. We aim for perfection, but we usually have to
accept something less. If we aim for merely good enough, we'll end up
with something even worse. Follow that path far enough and you can
imagine the result. There's nothing wrong with holding a high
standard, though there must surely be a more gracious way of doing it.
Ultimately, the objective is to get you to hold yourself to a high
standard.

At times it'll feel like you can't do anything right and you may feel
like quitting, but eventually it all comes together. After that, the
challenge is to keep yourself at that edge. If it were easy, everyone
would be doing it.

>Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
>is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

Then you've answered your own question and you're just looking for
validation.

There's already a problem getting students to start, it's unfortunate
that an instructor is seeming to be trying to drive students away. My
guess is that he's building hours until he can move on to the airlines
or something similar. I've had a several instructors doing that over
the years, though none ever acted this way. In this case, it appears
that he hates the job because it isn't what he really wants to be
doing, but he needs the hours. That dissatisfaction makes a bad
teacher and maybe a bad pilot. Move on. You don't have to put up with
this. There are better instructors. Maybe one of those old guys who
have already been to the airlines and are now instructing for the love
of it. But don't expect them to give you an easy time. They'll have
high standards too.

RK Henry

[Jim Logajan]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
> ...
>> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>> Well, first of all, congratulations for not killing yourself under a
>>> first
>>> solo condition I would consider possibly one of the worst I've ever
>>> seen in
>>> print.
>>
>> You know, Dudley, when I read his story my first thought was we were
>> being trolled (again). There's been a lot of that here lately.
>
> Could be Mort.

Keep in mind that the OP mentioned the name of a real flight school:

"We return to Monarch Air...." and the handle he chose, "Monarch
Student," suggests to me, at least, that the story is real. I think it
unlikely that a troll would have mentioned or implied any real flight
school name that could be checked out.

Also, there is at least one Monarch Air flight school based out of
Dallas Texas:

http://www.monarchair.com/

[Jeff[_1_]]

>
> There are no downsides to getting rid of an instructor of the type you
> describe. Get back to enjoying flying. This is not marine boot camp.

Amen and amen! I don't know how old the OP is or if he's doing his flight
training for fun or for a career, but either way you've GOT to enjoy it or
it's pure misery.

I think I'm extremely lucky in haveing a CFI that started out our first
lesson with "You don't NEED your license, so if this stops being fun, why do
it?". From that point on, I've taken that to heart. Makes my learning much
easier and more enjoyable. If what the OP said about his instructor is dead
on, I don't think I would have had the confidence in myself to solo after
that.

Now for the good part....Congrats on the solo!!!!!!!

jf

[Darkwing]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> Were you paraphrasing or was your instructor actualy using the F word?
>> That is usually a sign of a CFI who isn't in control of the situation.
>> A good CFI shows little emotion in the cockpit. We also know how to
>> only sweat on the right side (the student should never see you sweat).
>> ;) I've not been in a situation with a student where I've lost my cool,
>> I can't imagine what that situation would be. If you're not happy with
>> a student's airspeed control you just tell them. No reason to get upset
>> about it. As the CFI you get to fly tomorrow either way, the student
>> may not ;)
>
> I tried to land me and my instructor in a corn field along side the runway
> early in my training (pre-solo). I was cross controlled for a cross wind
> and all of the sudden my partially trained brain decided that wasn't right
> and I cranked in aileron in concert with the rudder I was holding and off
> toward the corn field we went. Once about 75 feet off the center line and
> maybe 30 feet about the corn, Dick said "get the throttle in" (he actually
> said it twice, a little louder the second time!), which I did and he
> slipped us back over the runway and landed. He couldn't get to the
> throttle has in the little C150 he always had is left arm behind the
> pilot's seat.
>
> He laughed about it the rest of the day and told everyone I was the first
> student who had tried to kill him that day. I figured if trying to kill a
> man didn't get him angry, then he was a pretty good instructor!
>
>
> Matt


By the time I got my private I had been with 3 primary instructors and flew
with a couple others on and off, they were ALL very cool, friendly, helpful
and I never felt like I was imposing on them. I had my first primary tell me
once on a slow, attitude high climb out, "If you lower the nose a little bit
we probably won't crash", point taken. For the instructor at Monarch to do
what he did he should get beat down.

---------------------------------------------------------
DW

[Blanche]

Since the senior instructor seems to have a good opinion of you,
perhaps you should sit down with him/her, explain the situation --
that your current CFI does not understand your mode of learning,
and that you'd like another CFI.

If that doesn't work, is there another school anywhere close?

Learning to fly is frustrating at times, but at no time should
it be harassment or make you unhappy.

[[email protected]]

Monarch Student wrote:
> I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
....snip...

How about this for a radical idea. Talk to the instructor.

Perhaps something like "Hey Joe, you know the lesson the other day how
you were pretty agitated, was there some reason for that, because I
didn't think my flying was anywhere near the screaming-near-death
stage."

Voting with your feet is fine, but remember, this is a two way street,
students learn from instructors but instructors learn from students
too. If your instructor walked out on you, you'd like the respect of
them talking to you first about why, so give your instructor the same
respect.

[Thomas Borchert]

Monarch,

> So should I get a new instructor?
>

If your account is even remotely close to true, these are the steps you
should absolutely take:

1. Go to the flight school manager and tell him everything that
happened.
2. Make that the very last time you ever set foot in their premises,
ever. If a school allows guys like these to happen, there are
alternatives, especially at Addison.
3. Find another flight school AND another instructor. Now!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

wrote:
> Voting with your feet is fine, but remember, this is a two way street,
> students learn from instructors but instructors learn from students
> too. If your instructor walked out on you, you'd like the respect of
> them talking to you first about why, so give your instructor the same
> respect.


Do you suppose that if the student does walk, the instructor will think back to
the flight and still be wondering why he left? He knows what he did. When the
student hits the trail, he'll learn the consequences of what he did.

It's been my experience that most of the screamers are afraid. Maybe they need
to find a line of work that doesn't frighten them quite so much.

My very first instructor was someone I promptly renamed "Colonel Goddammit". I
only flew with him that one time... until I took my checkride. Then I had to
fly with him again as he was the DE. And later, he became my chief pilot when I
started flying Part 135. In his case, he yelled because nothing ****ed him off
worse than bad flying. He was famous for his reamings... pilots getting out of
the cockpit looking like they'd been riding a motorcycle sideways.... sunburned
on just one side of their face, etc. <G> Honest to God, I once heard him
reaming somebody's ass over the sound of the idling engine while I was standing
out on the tarmac. And he didn't care who's ass he got on.... he'd jump on
other retired USAF colonels as quick as anybody else if their technique offended
them. I ended up learning a lot from that man.

But not as a primary student. Oh, and I hit him once with an IFR hood when I
started flying for him Part 135. That time, I was the one who was ****ed. <G>



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[fromTheShadows[_3_]]

Jim Logajan wrote:

> Keep in mind that the OP mentioned the name of a real flight school:
>
> "We return to Monarch Air...." and the handle he chose, "Monarch
> Student," suggests to me, at least, that the story is real. I think it
> unlikely that a troll would have mentioned or implied any real flight
> school name that could be checked out.
>

Maybe a competitor, or someone with a grudge against 'Jake'?

[Private]

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
>My flight instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students
>before a
>month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him for
>this long.
snip

As a student you do not have the knowledge to properly judge whether this
'guy' 'knows his stuff' but there is more to being an instructor than just
being a good pilot. This 'guy' does not sound like he received very good
instructor training and he needs you to give him some.

> So should I get a new instructor?
snip
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

Flight students need to learn two things in order to become a pilot.

The techniques of maneuvering an aircraft are an obvious requirement as is
the knowledge needed to plan and manage flight safely and according to
applicable regulation.

The most important thing that a student must understand and perform is the
ability to act as Pilot in COMMAND. As a pilot you are responsible for all
aspects of safe flight and must ultimately accept responsibility for all the
factors and decisions affecting the flight. As a student you are also in
command of your learning. Only you can decide how much studying you require
and how much preparation you need to make each lesson productive. You must
constantly monitor your learning performance and evaluate the effectiveness
of all aspects of your training including the performance of any instructor
you hire. YOU are in command and for this privilege you get to pay (lots).

All students are individuals and each has unique learning styles and needs.
As the student in command only you can evaluate whether any instructor is
providing the training that you require.

Personally, I require instruction that is respectful and supportive of
myself and my efforts. For me flight is primarily an intellectually
challenging form of recreation and I demand that it be pleasant and above
all FUN. It is my money and I expect to receive a quality experience and I
expect an environment that allows me to learn and succeed.

Based only on your description, your 'guy' failed to provide the learning
environment that I would require. He also displayed shocking disregard for
safe cockpit procedure not only by a hostile and bullying posture but also
by failing to teach and ensure the required proper transfer of control ("I
have control / you have control"). I regard this as a basic safety issue
and for me would be grounds for immediate termination of both the flight and
the relationship. The lack of a proper (required by regulation?) debriefing
and the unprofessional behavior exhibited by this 'guy' would make me
question the school standards as established by the chief flying instructor.

I would suggest that you print out your initial post and the many thoughtful
replies and forward them to the chief flying instructor and the owner of
your (probably previous) school.

There are lots of professional and experienced instructors (and schools) who
will be happy to provide a much better learning environment that will make
flying fun for you again. Do not worry about any possible hit to your
progress as you now know what you need to avoid and I suspect your
performance will improve quickly with proper coaching. I suspect that your
'guy' has missed some important lessons but you are not so far along that
these deficiencies will be permanent. Most of us have trained with several
different instructors and many of us would advocate it.

Good luck and above all, have fun.
Congratulations on soloing.

[kontiki]

Monarch Student wrote:
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

Lordy Lordy, you need to get another instructor, or even another
flight school. That type of behavior is totally unacceptable.

If the chief flight instructor has any integrity you could talk
to him.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
>
> You know, Dudley, when I read his story my first thought was we were being
> trolled (again).

So did I.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Keep in mind that the OP mentioned the name of a real flight school:
>
> "We return to Monarch Air...." and the handle he chose, "Monarch
> Student," suggests to me, at least, that the story is real. I think it
> unlikely that a troll would have mentioned or implied any real flight
> school name that could be checked out.
>

Or he's got some axe to grind.

[Steve Foley]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...

> Secondly, if I were you, I'd never fly with this outfit again and find
> another CFI immediately.

I don't see it as a black mark against the outfit, only the CFI.

Now, if the OP talks to the chief instructor and isn't happy with the reply,
find another outfit. One advantage I see is that staying with the same
outfit reduces the chances of having to start all over.

[Monarch Student]

Thank you for all your helpful replies. I made up the name of the
flight school and instructor, to keep it anonymous and not to get
anyone in trouble. I will have a talk with him, and get the situation
resolved.

Thanks again for everyone's comments.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
>I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
> We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
> and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
> my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
> look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
> the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
> yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
> altitude", he says.

<SNIP rest of story>

I would have fired him on the spot and told him to land the damn airplane
himself.

[Ross Richardson[_2_]]

Monarch Student wrote:
> I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
> We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
> and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
> my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
> look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
> the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
> yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
> altitude", he says.
>
> We come in for a landing, on a regular runway with no displaced
> threshold. He's yelling to keep it at 70 and pitches the yoke down.
> We're headed directly for the grass in front of the runway. I ask if
> we can land about fifty feet farther in because at this angle we'll be
> right on the grass/lights. McKinney is over 6k long, so we have room.
> And it's 2 days before Thanksgiving so hardly any traffic is present.
>
> He says no (seemed like a reasonable request), yells, yells more and
> my landing which is now low because of our airspeed and him not
> allowing me to slightly power it to make it farther in, sucks. We
> stop on the runway, and next pattern he simulates an engine failure. I
> pitch for about 70, and get, "SIXTY-EIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR ****ING BEST
> GLIDE? SIXTY-EIGHT!!". There's no way to make it to the runway, at
> all even with 68. I get yelled at for being too far away, but the
> tower asked us to be because of incoming traffic.
>
> Jake smashes in the throttle and yells "GO AROUND!", forcing the yoke
> forward because the nose pitched up (thanks to him hammering the
> throttle in) then yelling at me for that.
>
> At this point, I'm ready just to go home. But I consider it wasted
> money, and probably better to let him scream for 10 more minutes and
> I'll probably get to solo.
>
> Sure enough, after two more landings I solo. "DON'T RUN ME OVER WHEN
> YOU ****ING COME BACK", he says.
>
> 90 downwind, tight pattern, smooth landings. The McKinney tower guy
> even told my instructor after he got back in that my pattern and
> landings looked great, but I forgot to announce my callsign once, I
> didn't center line all the landings, etc etc all announced on the
> tower frequency. Thanks McKinney ATC guy! *sigh*
>
> We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
> Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
> not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
> with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
> congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
> see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
> hell out of his face.
>
> So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
> being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
> senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
> "significantly better than average".
>
> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in? Does
> asking for a new one (preferrably with some experience) label me as a
> problem student with the school?
>
> Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
> more comfortable with it?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.
There is absolutely NO excuse for that type of behavior. Get another
instructor. There are plenty of flight schools about the north Texas
area. I am up in Sherman. Let us know what comes of this.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[rod]

Monarch Air has schools at both Addison, from whence they took off, and at
McKinney, where he soloed. I have taken training at the latter from a very
competent instructor. I think it's this particular instructor, not the
school.

Rod
"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>>> Well, first of all, congratulations for not killing yourself under a
>>>> first
>>>> solo condition I would consider possibly one of the worst I've ever
>>>> seen in
>>>> print.
>>>
>>> You know, Dudley, when I read his story my first thought was we were
>>> being trolled (again). There's been a lot of that here lately.
>>
>> Could be Mort.
>
> Keep in mind that the OP mentioned the name of a real flight school:
>
> "We return to Monarch Air...." and the handle he chose, "Monarch
> Student," suggests to me, at least, that the story is real. I think it
> unlikely that a troll would have mentioned or implied any real flight
> school name that could be checked out.
>
> Also, there is at least one Monarch Air flight school based out of
> Dallas Texas:
>
> http://www.monarchair.com/

[rod]

"> Now, if the OP talks to the chief instructor and isn't happy with the
reply,
> find another outfit. One advantage I see is that staying with the same
> outfit reduces the chances of having to start all over.
Agree. The chief instructor need to know about unhappy customers and bad
instructors. If he doesn't do something, that's the time to run.

Rod

[buttman]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> You know, Dudley, when I read his story my first thought was we were being
> trolled (again). There's been a lot of that here lately.
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

I see where you're coming from, but remember those defense mechanisms
we were taught during CFI training? I am 100% certain the OP is
displaying a defense mechanism by exaggerating the situation here.

I know, because I had an instructor back in the day who was pretty
horrible. I talked to people about what I should do, and in almost all
of those cases, I exaggerated the situation a little to make my point
seem more obvious. I would say, "THEN HE SCREAMED AT ME AT THE TOP OF
HIS LUNGS BECAUSE I WAS ONE FOOT ABOVE MY ALTITUDE"; when in actuality,
he would just alert me in an annoyingly-rude manner for being slightly
more than 100 feet above my altitude.

Regardless, just by the fact that the OP feels the need to ask the
question, says to me he should get a new instructor whether he is
exaggerating or not.

Also, I am glad no one caught on to the remark in the OP where he
explains that the CFI in question is 25 years old. This newsgroup likes
to go off on anti-white-haired CFI tirades often, and I'm glad to not
see it here. Bad instructors come in all ages and hair colors.

As a matter of fact the worst instructor I ever had was this 55 year
old guy who was even ex-airlines. He had that attitude that since he
has been around for so long that he could do anything he wanted. _HE_
understood how to do holds (since he had been doing them for decades),
but _I_ wasn't so sharp on them. He just couldn't understand what was
so hard about holds because they just came so easy to him. I could go
on all day about this guy, but I'll stop there.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you for all your helpful replies. I made up the name of the
> flight school and instructor, to keep it anonymous and not to get
> anyone in trouble. I will have a talk with him, and get the situation
> resolved.

The time to talk to the instructor is far passed. He crossed the line; many of
them. He needs to be gone from that flight school, or you do.

Talk to whoever is in charge, and get it worked out with them.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote

> I would have fired him on the spot and told him to land the damn airplane
> himself.

Exactly.
--
Jim in NC

[Timmay]

Congrats on your first solo. I agree with everyone else 100%, time to
find a new instructor. Someone had also previously mentioned that a
good instructor will show no emotions while in the plane. I wouldn't
take that comment to heart, I mean you're looking for a human being,
not a robot, no?

[John Clonts]

Monarch Student wrote:
> Thank you for all your helpful replies. I made up the name of the
> flight school and instructor, to keep it anonymous and not to get
> anyone in trouble. I will have a talk with him, and get the situation
> resolved.
>
> Thanks again for everyone's comments.

So it's just a very unfortunate coincidence that the name you made up
happens to be a real flight school at McKinney and Addison?

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Guy Elden Jr]

> <SNIP rest of story>
>
> I would have fired him on the spot and told him to land the damn airplane
> himself.

I was thinking about what I'd do - I'd probably yell back to him "YOUR
PLANE", take my headphones off, unplug them, pack away my stuff in the
flight bag, and wait for him to get the plane back to the FBO. Then
fire him and tell whoever is running the flight school that I'll be
taking my business elsewhere. But that's just me. :)

--
Guy

[Peter Dohm]

I really had planned to just lurk on this one, especially since I think that
both Peter Duniho and Dudley have it nailed, which is no surprise, and
'buttman' made an excellent point as well. There was also some interesting
points made regarding flight school organization and proceedures...

After carefully re-reading the original post, I am also really wondering
whether 'Jake' had some misgivings about the OP's readiness for solo; but
was under pressure to "get it done."

The truth be told, I should not have soloed at the time that I did, even
though I was very good and very smooth in most aspects of flying--but not
quite all. My crosswind correction was VERY substandard, which made the
successfull completion nearly as much good luck as good management...

Therefore, I agree with the rest: Change Instructors. I can only add that
the OP should also try to become much more of a perfectionist!

Peter


> I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
> instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
> month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
> for this long.
>
> Until today.
>
> We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
> and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
> my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
> look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
> the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
> yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
> altitude", he says.
>
> We come in for a landing, on a regular runway with no displaced
> threshold. He's yelling to keep it at 70 and pitches the yoke down.
> We're headed directly for the grass in front of the runway. I ask if
> we can land about fifty feet farther in because at this angle we'll be
> right on the grass/lights. McKinney is over 6k long, so we have room.
> And it's 2 days before Thanksgiving so hardly any traffic is present.
>
> He says no (seemed like a reasonable request), yells, yells more and
> my landing which is now low because of our airspeed and him not
> allowing me to slightly power it to make it farther in, sucks. We
> stop on the runway, and next pattern he simulates an engine failure. I
> pitch for about 70, and get, "SIXTY-EIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR ****ING BEST
> GLIDE? SIXTY-EIGHT!!". There's no way to make it to the runway, at
> all even with 68. I get yelled at for being too far away, but the
> tower asked us to be because of incoming traffic.
>
> Jake smashes in the throttle and yells "GO AROUND!", forcing the yoke
> forward because the nose pitched up (thanks to him hammering the
> throttle in) then yelling at me for that.
>
> At this point, I'm ready just to go home. But I consider it wasted
> money, and probably better to let him scream for 10 more minutes and
> I'll probably get to solo.
>
> Sure enough, after two more landings I solo. "DON'T RUN ME OVER WHEN
> YOU ****ING COME BACK", he says.
>
> 90 downwind, tight pattern, smooth landings. The McKinney tower guy
> even told my instructor after he got back in that my pattern and
> landings looked great, but I forgot to announce my callsign once, I
> didn't center line all the landings, etc etc all announced on the
> tower frequency. Thanks McKinney ATC guy! *sigh*
>
> We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
> Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
> not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
> with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
> congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
> see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
> hell out of his face.
>
> So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
> being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
> senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
> "significantly better than average".
>
> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in? Does
> asking for a new one (preferrably with some experience) label me as a
> problem student with the school?
>
> Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
> more comfortable with it?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

[karl gruber[_1_]]

BTW,,................

CONGRATULATIONS on your first solo.

Now go cut up your shirt!!!


Karl
ATP CFI

[Vaughn Simon]

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
> So should I get a new instructor?

Run, don't walk. Remember, you are more than just a student, you are a
customer. Have a quiet talk with the head instructor and get a new instructor.

By the way, my students can tell when I am thinking about soloing them. That is
when I get quiet and never-never touch the controls. I may be making little
notes for discussion on the ground, but my student will be making the decisions
aloft and I am just the safety pilot.

If you can't do that much with me in the plane, why would you be ready to solo?

Vaughn (CFIG)

[Jose[_1_]]

> Monarch Air has schools at both Addison, from whence they took off,

Whence they took off. "whence" means "from where".

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[rod]

"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
>> Monarch Air has schools at both Addison, from whence they took off,
>
> Whence they took off. "whence" means "from where".
>
> Jose

Thank you

[Jack Allison[_1_]]

Monarch Student wrote:

> So should I get a new instructor?
Don't take this wrong...but...do you really need to ask? No question in
my mind, I'd drop this guy and go instructor and/or flight school
shopping. The guy is working for you. If you don't like the
attitude/service/whatever, move on. There are plenty of good CFIs and
flight schools out there.

Congrats on the solo. Hope you find a better instructor.

> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
> is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.
It is fun. It can be an absolute blast with the right instructor as well.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Hugh Waterman]

Student Pilot:
If your flight instructor did as you stated, he badly needs a Flight
Instructor -- to teach him how to instruct. He may be a pilot, but
he's not an instructor!

I suggest that you get a different instructor, and tell your "former"
instructor frankly why you changed, and don't hold back! This should
have no effect on your treatment by all the others at the school,
because they are undoubtedly well aware of the personality defects of
that particular individual. Someone will probably come to you and
thank you for "teaching" him a human relations lesson.

Hugh Waterman
SMEL,commercial, instructor, instrument


On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:34:35 -0600, Monarch Student
> wrote:

>I left this morning for my first supervised solo. My flight
>instructor is a new guy, about 25 who's never taught students before a
>month ago. But he seems to know his stuff, so I've put up with him
>for this long.
>
>Until today.
>
>We take off from Addison to McKinney TX airport, arrive at McKinney
>and begin pattern work. Apparently my pattern wasn't tight enough so
>my instructor who I guess is having a bad morning starts yelling at
>the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
>look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
>the throttle, and mashes it in. The nose comes up and he hammers the
>yoke with his hands so the plane pitches down suddenly. "Watch your
>altitude", he says.
>
>We come in for a landing, on a regular runway with no displaced
>threshold. He's yelling to keep it at 70 and pitches the yoke down.
>We're headed directly for the grass in front of the runway. I ask if
>we can land about fifty feet farther in because at this angle we'll be
>right on the grass/lights. McKinney is over 6k long, so we have room.
>And it's 2 days before Thanksgiving so hardly any traffic is present.
>
>He says no (seemed like a reasonable request), yells, yells more and
>my landing which is now low because of our airspeed and him not
>allowing me to slightly power it to make it farther in, sucks. We
>stop on the runway, and next pattern he simulates an engine failure. I
>pitch for about 70, and get, "SIXTY-EIGHT. WHAT'S YOUR ****ING BEST
>GLIDE? SIXTY-EIGHT!!". There's no way to make it to the runway, at
>all even with 68. I get yelled at for being too far away, but the
>tower asked us to be because of incoming traffic.
>
>Jake smashes in the throttle and yells "GO AROUND!", forcing the yoke
>forward because the nose pitched up (thanks to him hammering the
>throttle in) then yelling at me for that.
>
>At this point, I'm ready just to go home. But I consider it wasted
>money, and probably better to let him scream for 10 more minutes and
>I'll probably get to solo.
>
>Sure enough, after two more landings I solo. "DON'T RUN ME OVER WHEN
>YOU ****ING COME BACK", he says.
>
>90 downwind, tight pattern, smooth landings. The McKinney tower guy
>even told my instructor after he got back in that my pattern and
>landings looked great, but I forgot to announce my callsign once, I
>didn't center line all the landings, etc etc all announced on the
>tower frequency. Thanks McKinney ATC guy! *sigh*
>
>We return to Monarch Air, he says tie up the plane and hurry up.
>Coming into the "office", there's 4 instructors standing there, all
>not talking, avoiding eye contact and Jake in a chair looking down
>with his hand outstretched for the key. No good solo (which is was),
>congrats, nadda from anyone. And thus I left, no happy Thanksgiving,
>see ya when I get back, almost like Jake just wanted me to get the
>hell out of his face.
>
>So should I get a new instructor? Mine seems like a miserable human
>being. If I was a bad student, maybe I could understand. But the
>senior instructor that's flown with me on progress flights called me
>"significantly better than average".
>
>How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in? Does
>asking for a new one (preferrably with some experience) label me as a
>problem student with the school?
>
>Is it too much to ask, to be allowed a few feet into the runway if I'm
>more comfortable with it?
>
>Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which
>is sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

[Charlie45]

At first I agreed on all of the above opinions, namely to get rid of that A$$H*LE and find a new flight school. However, the more I read on, the more fishy this whole little story seems. As one person inferred, why did he say he made up the name of the flight school and location when they turn out to be real. I fly out of Addison and am familiar with Monarch and also know that McKinney is the standard training flight from Addison. Why on earth would he say that he made this up???

[[email protected]]

Get a new instructor.

Three of us shared the same instructor until we each were private
pilots but there were sessions when each of us was not comfortable
with him. Later, we learned that he hated our profession...engineering
and therefore was not pleased to fly with us.

After getting the private, I had to do transition training in tailwheel
planes and so a new to me instructor was assigned.

Like night and day!! Incredible how quickly he picked up on things and
how readily they were corrected.

Flying with and being instructed by him was a real pleasure so the
benefit to all of us was that I went on with him through a Commercial
license.

The only regret was that I or we three had not changed instructors
after the first "realization" hours with the first one.


Best of luck and you will!! enjoy the ride with other instructors.

Neal

[gatt]

"Monarch Student" > wrote in message
...
>
> the top of his lungs, "90 KEEP IT AT ****ING 90 ON DOWNWIND!!". I
> look down at the airspeed, which is at 87. He slaps my hand away from
> the throttle, and mashes it in.

Time for a new instructor. Somebody who conducts himself like that with a
student is likely missing other critical instructional skills that a more
level-headed and positive instructor is more likely to possess.

> How much of a hit would I take changing instructors this far in?

Not much given you've just soloed. Consider that what you're learning
concerns matters of life and death for you and your future passengers, and
if an instructor has to swear at you on the day you solo, he's irrational.
That might make you question his decision to sign you off to solo in the
first place. In terms of the money you might lose, I think it's better to
reward a good instructor than enable the behavior of a poor one and if you
don't, in the long run you'll be spending a lot of money trying to enjoy
something being taught to you by somebody you don't trust.

I dated a girl who had an instructor like that in Baton Rouge. He made her
so uncomfortable in the cockpit she "quit flying for awhile" and never
picked it up again.

> Any advice would be appreciated. I'm beginning to hate flying, which is
> sad because I began learning thinking it would be fun.

It is and for the money you have to pay to do it, it should be.

By the way, CONGRATULATIONS.

-c

[PilotWeb.org]

If this is typical practice, then without a doubt your flight
instructor is unprofessional and violating the FAA's guidelines on the
fundamentals of instruction (FOI) Never, ever, ever pay $50/hour for
someone to treat you like crap.

Find a new instructor, preferably one who enjoys instructing. You are
a client, he is providing a service and under no circumstances should
you be reduced to anything less.

Incidentally, "slamming" the throttle, or any other aircraft control is
a bad idea, and on more than one occasion results in broken cables,
linkages, and can even be the straw that breaks an engine, not
something you want to have happen with 20 hours in your book.

Check our website, there is plenty of information on CFI's, jobs, and
the basics of VFR instruction.

www.pilotweb.org