Class D / Class C precedence

[Mxsmanic]

If Class C overlaps Class D (see Portland Troutdale airport), which
airspace takes precedence?

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[Dennis]

I can't tell you where it would be written in regs or fars but Troutdale
coordinates with PDX to direct traffic to turn prior to entering PDX
airspace or to stay below their airspace and flight paths. Heading west
from Troutdale you are instructed to turn before Blue Lake.



"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> If Class C overlaps Class D (see Portland Troutdale airport), which
> airspace takes precedence?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[BT]

Class C should always over lap Class D,
in the outer part you are in Class C, when you get close, you should be
handed off to the tower if you are landing, but the approach controllers
could coordinate your through flight

BT

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> If Class C overlaps Class D (see Portland Troutdale airport), which
> airspace takes precedence?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Dennis writes:

> I can't tell you where it would be written in regs or fars but Troutdale
> coordinates with PDX to direct traffic to turn prior to entering PDX
> airspace or to stay below their airspace and flight paths. Heading west
> from Troutdale you are instructed to turn before Blue Lake.

The part that confuses me is that the Class D for Troutdale supposedly
tops out at 2500, but the overlapping sectors of the Class C for PDX
start at 1700 and 2000. The dotted lines for the Class D are inside
the Class C boundaries. So at what altitude would an aircraft pass
from the Class D into the Class C?

I had not previously seen this on a chart. I've seen Class C
impinging on Class B but then the Class C is usually marked T for the
upper limit, so that you know it ends just where the Class B begins.

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[Greg Farris]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>If Class C overlaps Class D (see Portland Troutdale airport), which
>airspace takes precedence?
>
You must, at all costs, avoid the spot where they overlap.
The superimposition of thes two types of air produces standing lenticular
clouds, which can produce very dangerous turbulence.

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

This is described in AIM chapter 3. The rules for the more restrictive
airspace will apply when there is an overlap.

An obvious example of this is restricted airspaces. The majority of
R-airspaces overlap with G or E airspaces, but in those instances we
don't question which rules apply.


BT wrote:
> Class C should always over lap Class D,
> in the outer part you are in Class C, when you get close, you should be
> handed off to the tower if you are landing, but the approach controllers
> could coordinate your through flight
>
> BT
>
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
> > If Class C overlaps Class D (see Portland Troutdale airport), which
> > airspace takes precedence?
> >
> > --
> > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Ron Natalie]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> An obvious example of this is restricted airspaces. The majority of
> R-airspaces overlap with G or E airspaces, but in those instances we
> don't question which rules apply.
>
Restricted areas aren't a form of controlled airspace. The rules
for them is in ADDITION to the controlled airspace rules rather than
one having priority over the other.

[Roy Smith]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
> This is described in AIM chapter 3. The rules for the more restrictive
> airspace will apply when there is an overlap.

That's an odd way to say it. Consider VFR minimums in overlapping Class D
& B airspace (a pretty common occurance for satellite towered airports
under the shelf of a Class B). The Class D rules say "1000 feet above, 500
feet below, 2000 feet laterally" for cloud clearance. The Class B rules
say "clear of clouds". The D rule is more restrictive, but the B rule is
what's in effect.

> An obvious example of this is restricted airspaces. The majority of
> R-airspaces overlap with G or E airspaces, but in those instances we
> don't question which rules apply.

R is not an "airspace class". There are no VFR minima for R-areas. If I
call up NY Approach, ask to transition R-5206, and receive approval to do
so, the weather minima of the underlying E or G airspace are in effect.

[Dennis]

I don't know if anyone else caught that, but it was very funny. Thanks!

Dennis



"Greg Farris" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>>
>>
>>If Class C overlaps Class D (see Portland Troutdale airport), which
>>airspace takes precedence?
>>
> You must, at all costs, avoid the spot where they overlap.
> The superimposition of thes two types of air produces standing lenticular
> clouds, which can produce very dangerous turbulence.
>

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Roy Smith wrote:
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
> > This is described in AIM chapter 3. The rules for the more restrictive
> > airspace will apply when there is an overlap.
>
> That's an odd way to say it. Consider VFR minimums in overlapping Class D
> & B airspace (a pretty common occurance for satellite towered airports
> under the shelf of a Class B). The Class D rules say "1000 feet above, 500
> feet below, 2000 feet laterally" for cloud clearance. The Class B rules
> say "clear of clouds". The D rule is more restrictive, but the B rule is
> what's in effect.

I didn't make this up. It is in AIM 3-1-3.

"a. When overlapping airspace designations apply to the same airspace,
the operating rules associated with the more restrictive airspace
designation apply. "

Then it goes on to clarifiy specific designations. It does say that
class B is more restrictive than the other classes, and class A is the
most restrictive.



>
> > An obvious example of this is restricted airspaces. The majority of
> > R-airspaces overlap with G or E airspaces, but in those instances we
> > don't question which rules apply.
>
> R is not an "airspace class". There are no VFR minima for R-areas. If I
> call up NY Approach, ask to transition R-5206, and receive approval to do
> so, the weather minima of the underlying E or G airspace are in effect.


Again, I am quoting from the AIM.

"There are two categories of airspace or airspace areas:

1. Regulatory (Class A, B, C, D and E airspace areas, restricted and
prohibited areas); and

2. Nonregulatory (military operations areas (MOAs), warning areas,
alert areas, and controlled firing areas)."

[Newps]

Roy Smith wrote:

> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
>
>>This is described in AIM chapter 3. The rules for the more restrictive
>>airspace will apply when there is an overlap.
>
>
> That's an odd way to say it. Consider VFR minimums in overlapping Class D
> & B airspace (a pretty common occurance for satellite towered airports
> under the shelf of a Class B). The Class D rules say "1000 feet above, 500
> feet below, 2000 feet laterally" for cloud clearance. The Class B rules
> say "clear of clouds". The D rule is more restrictive, but the B rule is
> what's in effect.

You can only be in one airspace at a time. At TTD notice the class D
circle isn't a full cirlce. It gets cut off where the class C goes to
the ground. You can really see this at the airport just northwest of
PDX. In the areas depicted that airspace is class D up to the altitude
given, not a mix of class C and D. You don't get to pick a set of cloud
clearance rules to suit your needs.

[Jose[_1_]]

> "a. When overlapping airspace designations apply to the same airspace,
> the operating rules associated with the more restrictive airspace
> designation apply. "

This is not the same as "the most restrictive rules apply". But you did
state it correctly to start out with.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Dennis" > wrote in message
. ..
>I don't know if anyone else caught that, but it was very funny. Thanks!

I second that chuckle! :-)
--
Jim in NC

[Mxsmanic]

Andrew Sarangan writes:

> An obvious example of this is restricted airspaces. The majority of
> R-airspaces overlap with G or E airspaces, but in those instances we
> don't question which rules apply.

They aren't airspace classes though. Class B and Class C are both
airspace classes; logically they cannot occupy the same space at the
same time.

Restricted and other special airspace is an additional qualifier that
supplements the existing airspace class, so they can coexist.

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[Mxsmanic]

Roy Smith writes:

> That's an odd way to say it. Consider VFR minimums in overlapping Class D
> & B airspace (a pretty common occurance for satellite towered airports
> under the shelf of a Class B). The Class D rules say "1000 feet above, 500
> feet below, 2000 feet laterally" for cloud clearance. The Class B rules
> say "clear of clouds". The D rule is more restrictive, but the B rule is
> what's in effect.

Zero clouds is less restrictive than clouds a few thousand feet away?

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[Mxsmanic]

Andrew Sarangan writes:

> "There are two categories of airspace or airspace areas:
>
> 1. Regulatory (Class A, B, C, D and E airspace areas, restricted and
> prohibited areas); and
>
> 2. Nonregulatory (military operations areas (MOAs), warning areas,
> alert areas, and controlled firing areas)."

The two categories can occupy the same space at the same time, but
different classes in the same category cannot.

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[Mxsmanic]

Newps writes:

> You can only be in one airspace at a time. At TTD notice the class D
> circle isn't a full cirlce. It gets cut off where the class C goes to
> the ground.

Yeah, but look at the altitudes. The top of the Class D appears to be
_above_ the floor of the Class C that it overlaps.

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[Kev]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Roy Smith writes:
>
> > That's an odd way to say it. Consider VFR minimums in overlapping Class D
> > & B airspace (a pretty common occurance for satellite towered airports
> > under the shelf of a Class B). The Class D rules say "1000 feet above, 500
> > feet below, 2000 feet laterally" for cloud clearance. The Class B rules
> > say "clear of clouds". The D rule is more restrictive, but the B rule is
> > what's in effect.
>
> Zero clouds is less restrictive than clouds a few thousand feet away?

Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a
cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay
hundreds of feet away.

Kev

[Mxsmanic]

Kev writes:

> Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a
> cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay
> hundreds of feet away.

Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds,"
rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds."

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[Newps]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Newps writes:
>
>
>>You can only be in one airspace at a time. At TTD notice the class D
>>circle isn't a full cirlce. It gets cut off where the class C goes to
>>the ground.
>
>
> Yeah, but look at the altitudes. The top of the Class D appears to be
> _above_ the floor of the Class C that it overlaps.

The class C does not exist where the class D does.

[Wade Hasbrouck]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Kev writes:
>
>> Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a
>> cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay
>> hundreds of feet away.
>
> Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds,"
> rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds."
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Class B is more "restrictive" in the sense that you need an ATC clearance
before entering... Class D all you need to do is establish two way
communication.

[Wade Hasbrouck]

"Wade Hasbrouck" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Kev writes:
>>
>>> Not "zero clouds", but "clear of clouds". Having to stay away from a
>>> cloud by only an inch is much less restrictive than having to stay
>>> hundreds of feet away.
>>
>> Ah ... I thought "clear of clouds" meant "[sky] clear of clouds,"
>> rather than "[aircraft] clear of clouds."
>>
>> --
>> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>
> Class B is more "restrictive" in the sense that you need an ATC clearance
> before entering... Class D all you need to do is establish two way
> communication.

And when I say "establish two way communication" I mean you call them up and
if they acknowledge you in any way other than telling you to "stay out", you
are allowed to enter the Class D. i.e. if I call "Renton Tower, Cessna
1538V, Downtown Bellevue with Echo to land", and they reply with "Cessna
1538V, standby", that is considered establishment of two way communication
and I am allowed to enter the Class D. If they don't respond, then I must
stay clear of the Class D.

In your simulator you will never run into this.

One time going from Bremerton (PWT) to Boeing Field (BFI), as I came up on
the North end of Vashon Island, a guy departing BFI had declared an
emergency. The radio was quiet and thought I would see if the Boeing
Controller would acknowledge me (hoping for a "standby") so I could enter
the Class D, and so I called "Boeing Tower, Cessna 738VJ, North Vashon, with
Sierra, to land", and I got no response, so I started a left 360... then
the radio chatter picked up for the emergency and others inbound, and
between about 1/4 the way through the 360, the controller basically told
everyone, "I have an emergency in progress, I will get to as soon as I
can...", just past 1/2 way through the 360 the emergency was over and the
controller had gotten back to everyone but me and asked "is there anyone I
need to talk to that I haven't yet", suspecting he missed someone, and it
was me, but figured I would wait until I was pointed roughly in the right
direction before calling him again. Got pointed east, and gave him a call,
and he thanked me for my paitence. I had to do the 360 to stay out of the
Class D, as I had not yet established two way communication.

[Mxsmanic]

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

> And when I say "establish two way communication" I mean you call them up and
> if they acknowledge you in any way other than telling you to "stay out", you
> are allowed to enter the Class D. i.e. if I call "Renton Tower, Cessna
> 1538V, Downtown Bellevue with Echo to land", and they reply with "Cessna
> 1538V, standby", that is considered establishment of two way communication
> and I am allowed to enter the Class D. If they don't respond, then I must
> stay clear of the Class D.
>
> In your simulator you will never run into this.

Actually I will, with VATSIM, as there are real people handling ATC
and traffic then.

> One time going from Bremerton (PWT) to Boeing Field (BFI), as I came up on
> the North end of Vashon Island, a guy departing BFI had declared an
> emergency. The radio was quiet and thought I would see if the Boeing
> Controller would acknowledge me (hoping for a "standby") so I could enter
> the Class D, and so I called "Boeing Tower, Cessna 738VJ, North Vashon, with
> Sierra, to land", and I got no response, so I started a left 360... then
> the radio chatter picked up for the emergency and others inbound, and
> between about 1/4 the way through the 360, the controller basically told
> everyone, "I have an emergency in progress, I will get to as soon as I
> can...", just past 1/2 way through the 360 the emergency was over and the
> controller had gotten back to everyone but me and asked "is there anyone I
> need to talk to that I haven't yet", suspecting he missed someone, and it
> was me, but figured I would wait until I was pointed roughly in the right
> direction before calling him again. Got pointed east, and gave him a call,
> and he thanked me for my paitence. I had to do the 360 to stay out of the
> Class D, as I had not yet established two way communication.

I try to be cooperative with ATC. I even feel guilty asking for
flight following. Of course, VATSIM controllers are much thinner on
the ground than the real thing, so the workload is sometimes much
higher. There may be one person effectively working all Class B and
Class C towers, plus Approach and Departure, plus Center, plus Ground
and Clearance Delivery. If there are only a few planes in the area,
no problem, but when traffic picks up to real-world levels, it becomes
impossible. The usual situation is practically empty skies and no
ATC, though.

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[Roy Smith]

"Wade Hasbrouck" > wrote:
> One time going from Bremerton (PWT) to Boeing Field (BFI), as I came up on
> the North end of Vashon Island, a guy departing BFI had declared an
> emergency. The radio was quiet and thought I would see if the Boeing
> Controller would acknowledge me (hoping for a "standby") so I could enter
> the Class D, and so I called "Boeing Tower, Cessna 738VJ, North Vashon, with
> Sierra, to land",

You might want to re-read what the AIM has to say about this:

6-3-1. Distress and Urgency Communications
[...]
d. Distress communications have absolute priority over all other
communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency
in use.

If you know the controller is working an emergency on the frequency, just
shut up, stay out of the way, and let the guy do his job. By keying the
mike, you could be stepping on a critical radio call. Even if the
frequency appears quiet, the controller is probably busy on the landline
coordinating with other ATC facilities, airport emergency response teams,
etc.

[Morgans[_2_]]

Communications with a troll are found to enable their behavior.

[Jarod]

Newps wrote:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> > Newps writes:
> >
> >
> >>You can only be in one airspace at a time. At TTD notice the class D
> >>circle isn't a full cirlce. It gets cut off where the class C goes to
> >>the ground.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, but look at the altitudes. The top of the Class D appears to be
> > _above_ the floor of the Class C that it overlaps.
>
> The class C does not exist where the class D does.

Are you sure about that? Providence Class C protrudes into Quonset Point
class D airspace and the Quonset Tower is very adamant that the overlapping
area is Class C and requires communication with Providence.

[SR20GOER]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dennis" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>I don't know if anyone else caught that, but it was very funny. Thanks!
>
> I second that chuckle! :-)
> --
> Jim in NC
Jim (or any other USA contributors)
Slightly OT I know but can someone advise me (since we are talking
airspace) - are transponders mandatory to carry and use in Class E airspace
in the US?
cheers
Brian

[Mxsmanic]

Jarod writes:

>
>
> Newps wrote:
>
> > Mxsmanic wrote:
> >
> > > Newps writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >>You can only be in one airspace at a time. At TTD notice the class D
> > >>circle isn't a full cirlce. It gets cut off where the class C goes to
> > >>the ground.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, but look at the altitudes. The top of the Class D appears to be
> > > _above_ the floor of the Class C that it overlaps.
> >
> > The class C does not exist where the class D does.
>
> Are you sure about that? Providence Class C protrudes into Quonset Point
> class D airspace and the Quonset Tower is very adamant that the overlapping
> area is Class C and requires communication with Providence.

I'm looking at the inset on the Seattle sectional right now. The
dotted line of the TTD Class D doesn't extend into the central part of
the PDX Class C (where the latter starts at the surface). However, in
the two Class C sectors outside that, you see the dotted line of the
Class D, and 25 in a box, indicating that the Class D extends up to
2500 feet inclusive. But those two Class C sectors start at 1700 and
2000 feet, both below the ceiling of the Class D. So is 2000 feet
Class C, or Class D?

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[Newps]

One thing you can be sure of with ATC. Only one controller owns the
airspace at any given time. Those two facilities have gotten together
to iron out the airspace.




Jarod wrote:

>
> Newps wrote:
>
>
>>Mxsmanic wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Newps writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>You can only be in one airspace at a time. At TTD notice the class D
>>>>circle isn't a full cirlce. It gets cut off where the class C goes to
>>>>the ground.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah, but look at the altitudes. The top of the Class D appears to be
>>>_above_ the floor of the Class C that it overlaps.
>>
>>The class C does not exist where the class D does.
>
>
> Are you sure about that? Providence Class C protrudes into Quonset Point
> class D airspace and the Quonset Tower is very adamant that the overlapping
> area is Class C and requires communication with Providence.
>
>

[Newps]

SR20GOER wrote:


> Slightly OT I know but can someone advise me (since we are talking
> airspace) - are transponders mandatory to carry and use in Class E airspace
> in the US?


No.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"SR20GOER" > wrote

> Slightly OT I know but can someone advise me (since we are talking airspace) -
> are transponders mandatory to carry and use in Class E airspace in the US?

Transponders are required for all registered aircraft, if they were manufactured
with an electrical system.
--
Jim in NC

[Greg B]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "SR20GOER" > wrote
>
>> Slightly OT I know but can someone advise me (since we are talking
>> airspace) - are transponders mandatory to carry and use in Class E
>> airspace in the US?
>
> Transponders are required for all registered aircraft, if they were
> manufactured with an electrical system.

They are??? Is this a 'new' rule, like aircraft (with electrical)
manufactured after a certain year?

My Ercoupe (now sold) didn't have a transponder. I could, and did, fly it in
any airspace except B (and A :-) ).

-Greg B.

[BT]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "SR20GOER" > wrote
>
>> Slightly OT I know but can someone advise me (since we are talking
>> airspace) - are transponders mandatory to carry and use in Class E
>> airspace in the US?
>
> Transponders are required for all registered aircraft, if they were
> manufactured with an electrical system.
> --
> Jim in NC

Not required in Class E, G, or D or C

BT

[Morgans[_2_]]

"BT" > wrote
>
> Not required in Class E, G, or D or C

Hmm. I guess I remembered that incorrectly. I wonder where I got that idea.
--
Jim in NC

[Wade Hasbrouck]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "SR20GOER" > wrote
>>
>>> Slightly OT I know but can someone advise me (since we are talking
>>> airspace) - are transponders mandatory to carry and use in Class E
>>> airspace in the US?
>>
>> Transponders are required for all registered aircraft, if they were
>> manufactured with an electrical system.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
> Not required in Class E, G, or D or C
>
> BT
>

Unless under the Mode C veil of a Class B airport... i.e. if in Class E, G,
C, or D, but within 30 nm of a Class B Airport such as SEA, a transponder is
required unless you call the controlling authority (usually by phone) ahead
of time to make arrangements.

[Wade Hasbrouck]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Jarod writes:
>
>>
>>
>> Newps wrote:
>>
>> > Mxsmanic wrote:
>> >
>> > > Newps writes:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>You can only be in one airspace at a time. At TTD notice the class D
>> > >>circle isn't a full cirlce. It gets cut off where the class C goes
>> > >>to
>> > >>the ground.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Yeah, but look at the altitudes. The top of the Class D appears to
>> > > be
>> > > _above_ the floor of the Class C that it overlaps.
>> >
>> > The class C does not exist where the class D does.
>>
>> Are you sure about that? Providence Class C protrudes into Quonset Point
>> class D airspace and the Quonset Tower is very adamant that the
>> overlapping
>> area is Class C and requires communication with Providence.
>
> I'm looking at the inset on the Seattle sectional right now. The
> dotted line of the TTD Class D doesn't extend into the central part of
> the PDX Class C (where the latter starts at the surface). However, in
> the two Class C sectors outside that, you see the dotted line of the
> Class D, and 25 in a box, indicating that the Class D extends up to
> 2500 feet inclusive. But those two Class C sectors start at 1700 and
> 2000 feet, both below the ceiling of the Class D. So is 2000 feet
> Class C, or Class D?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Should be just like a Class B that has shelves over a Class D, i.e. SEA
Class B over Boeing Field (BFI), Class D at BFI goes to 2500, but the Class
B starts at 1100, 1800, 2000, and 3000 over various parts of BFI's Class
D... In your example/situation from 2000', or where ever the Class C shelf
starts, should be Class C. Speculating why they don't put the different
Class D ceilings for the different "sectors" might be because then the chart
would be more cluttered and more difficult to read, especially while flying.
Class C is more "restrictive" than Class D, and thus "overrides" the Class
D. You will typically find more IFR traffic and larger planes in Class C
than you will in Class D, and typically just plain more traffic in Class C.

I believe the person that said "Class C does not exist where the class D
does" was only refering to the surface airspaces.

[Ron Natalie]

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:59:37 -0500, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
>> Transponders are required for all registered aircraft, if they were manufactured
>> with an electrical system.
>
> I respectfully ask for the FAR where that is written.
>
It doesn't exist. The only place where "manufactured with an
engine-driven electrical system" appears is in the exemption
for the Mode C veil. Transponders are otherwise required
there and for everybody inside class A, B, and C, and above
10,000 feet in other controlled airspace.

There was an exemption to the transponder rule for class B
for certain airplanes without them but it is long expired.
You can get temporary waivers on the class B rules by
contacting ATC.

[Ron Natalie]

Greg B wrote:
> "Morgans" > wrote in message

> My Ercoupe (now sold) didn't have a transponder. I could, and did, fly it in
> any airspace except B (and A :-) ).
>

Not legally. You can't fly above 10,000 feet in controlled airspace
(admittedly a stretch in the 'coupe) nor in class C or within 30 miles
of the class B airports.

[Ron Natalie]

BT wrote:

>
> Not required in Class E, G, or D or C

Very much required for class C, and D and E when above 10,000'

>
>

[Judah]

B A R R Y > wrote in
:

> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:59:37 -0500, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>Transponders are required for all registered aircraft, if they were
>>manufactured with an electrical system.
>
> I respectfully ask for the FAR where that is written.

http://masl.to/?P28B1534E

FAR 91.215 section (b) paragraph (5)

(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person
may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1)
through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an
operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code
capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by
ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the
code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance
with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C–112, and that aircraft is
equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode
C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by
transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This
requirement applies—

....

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated
with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been
certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider—

[Judah]

Judah > wrote in
:

> B A R R Y > wrote in
> :
>
>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:59:37 -0500, "Morgans"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Transponders are required for all registered aircraft, if they were
>>>manufactured with an electrical system.
>>
>> I respectfully ask for the FAR where that is written.
>
> http://masl.to/?P28B1534E
>
> FAR 91.215 section (b) paragraph (5)
>
> (b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
> person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs
> (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped
> with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A
> 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code
> specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A
> interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S
> interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in
> TSO C–112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure
> altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that
> automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure
> altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies—
>
> ...
>
> (5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
> certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
> subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
> glider—

I should have added the full paragraph 5, which is actually an exclusion
for airplanes that don't have an electrical system.

"(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below
2,500 feet above the surface; and

(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-
nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this
part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral
boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that
airport."


The rule is actually as Ron described - Transpoder required in Class A, B,
and C, and all airspace above 10,000' MSL (except below 2,500' AGL), and
within the 30NM Mode C Veils of the Class B airports listed in the
appendix. I think it's all of them, but not sure because why would they
specifically list them if so?



Boy! I'm glad I studied Talmud as a kid!

[Greg B]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Greg B wrote:
>
>> My Ercoupe (now sold) didn't have a transponder. I could, and did, fly it
>> in any airspace except B (and A :-) ).
>>
>
> Not legally. You can't fly above 10,000 feet in controlled airspace
> (admittedly a stretch in the 'coupe) nor in class C or within 30 miles
> of the class B airports.

Thanks, Ron.

You're right, I didn't fly it above 10,000. I did fly *under* OKC's class C
when going into and out of PWA once. I had planned to fly into Cedar Rapids
and the Des Moines area (class C) with prior permission, but never did make
those trips.

[Ron Natalie]

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:34:17 -0500, Ron Natalie >
> wrote:
>
>> BT wrote:
>>
>>> Not required in Class E, G, or D or C
>> Very much required for class C, and D and E when above 10,000'
>
> Not for D.

Yes for D when ABOVE 10,000' (see the punctuation.

[SR20GOER]

"SR20GOER" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Dennis" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>>I don't know if anyone else caught that, but it was very funny. Thanks!
>>
>> I second that chuckle! :-)
>> --
>> Jim in NC
> Jim (or any other USA contributors)
> Slightly OT I know but can someone advise me (since we are talking
> airspace) - are transponders mandatory to carry and use in Class E
> airspace in the US?
> cheers
> Brian
All contributors

Thank you for the wealth of comment and information - it is relevant to a
response I am doing re the NAS here in Oz.

I think I am summarising correctly (cutting and pasting) as:

"Transponder required in Class A, B, and C, and all airspace above 10,000'
MSL (except below 2,500' AGL), and within the 30NM Mode C Veils of the Class
B airports listed in the appendix. But not otherwise required in Class E,
G, or D."

Brian

[Ron Natalie]

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:08:23 -0500, Ron Natalie >
> wrote:
>
>> B A R R Y wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:34:17 -0500, Ron Natalie >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> BT wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not required in Class E, G, or D or C
>>>> Very much required for class C, and D and E when above 10,000'
>>> Not for D.
>> Yes for D when ABOVE 10,000' (see the punctuation.
>
> Sorry, you're correct!
>
> I saw a comma where there wasn't a comma.
>
Although, it's unlikely you'll actually be in the class D
and the 10,000 foot zone (as there is an exclusion for
2500 AGL and below).

[PilotWeb.org]

Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service
because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight
following at this time."

Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to
reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it
terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it.

Visit our website for more aviation information, jobs, forums and good
advice about basic VFR skills.

[Journeyman]

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.aviation.student.]
On 2006-11-28, PilotWeb.org > wrote:
> Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
> service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service
> because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight
> following at this time."

Generally (but not always), if you listen on frequency for a few minutes
before transmitting, you'll be able to tell whether they'll be able to
give you flight following service.

One reason for flying under instrument rules in good weather is that
it effectively becomes guaranteed flight following. You still have
to look out the window, but it helps.

> Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to
> reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it
> terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it.

Definitely. But if you need to travel through someone's (D/C/B)
airspace do have a backup plan in case they don't let you in.

Regular use of flight following also sharpens the radio skills
required for IFR.


Morris

[Mxsmanic]

PilotWeb.org writes:

> Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
> service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service
> because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight
> following at this time."
>
> Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to
> reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it
> terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it.

Point taken, but I know that ATC's first priority is to keep IFR
flights safe, and in busy airspace I'd not want to take any risk of
distracting them from that job. If it's quiet I might ask for flight
following, or if I felt that I were in a risky situation myself (lots
of traffic nearby).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[A Lieberma]

"PilotWeb.org" > wrote in
oups.com:

> Visit our website for more aviation information, jobs, forums and good
> advice about basic VFR skills.

Pilotweb,

Not sure if you realize it or not, but you are dealing with a person
(Mxmaniac) who plays games on MSFS and does not fly a real plane.

Unfortunately, the value of your website would be wasted on the individual
you are dealing with since he has been trolling these aviation newsgroups
for sometime. Check out his posting history and you will clearly see what
I am talking about (especially his responses to real world situations).

You may want to respond to those who would be more appreciative of the time
you spend in your replies.

Allen

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> PilotWeb.org writes:
>
>> Do not feel guilty about asking for flight following or any other ATC
>> service. If the controller is unable to provide you with the service
>> because of a high workload, then he will tell you he is "unable flight
>> following at this time."
>>
>> Part of good CRM is taking advantage of EVERY AVAILABLE RESOURCE to
>> reduce risk and contribute to safety. VFR flight following, be it
>> terminal or center radar is just one more resource. Use it.
>
> Point taken, but I know that ATC's first priority is to keep IFR
> flights safe, and in busy airspace I'd not want to take any risk of
> distracting them from that job. If it's quiet I might ask for flight
> following, or if I felt that I were in a risky situation myself (lots
> of traffic nearby).


You are contradicting yourself Anthony. First you say you don't want to risk
distracting in busy airspace then you turn around that you'd use flight
following with lots of traffic nearby.

ATC is capable of deciding whether or not they are too busy to provide
flight following the pilot need not worry about distracting them with the
request or the service.

[SR20GOER]

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> "PilotWeb.org" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>> Visit our website for more aviation information, jobs, forums and good
>> advice about basic VFR skills.
>
> Pilotweb,
>
> Not sure if you realize it or not, but you are dealing with a person
> (Mxmaniac) who plays games on MSFS and does not fly a real plane.
>
> Unfortunately, the value of your website would be wasted on the individual
> you are dealing with since he has been trolling these aviation newsgroups
> for sometime. Check out his posting history and you will clearly see what
> I am talking about (especially his responses to real world situations).
>
> You may want to respond to those who would be more appreciative of the
> time
> you spend in your replies.
>
> Allen

Allen
Agreed - however his comment is of interest to the group as it raises the
hoary old chestnut that the role of ATC is to protect IFR.

Certainly that is the way it occurs here in Oz but the reality is that
airspace is a national asset and the role of ATC is to manage safety for all
in that public asset.

It is well summed up in the ICAO principle of first come first served except
where defence or system operational efficiency overrides. Of course, this
is read as commercial priority overrides particularly where ATC staffing is
constrained to save a dollar - so VFR drops out of the queue.
cheers
Brian

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> You are contradicting yourself Anthony. First you say you don't want to risk
> distracting in busy airspace then you turn around that you'd use flight
> following with lots of traffic nearby.

It's not a contradiction. At some point my safety (and that of
others) makes flight following necessary. ATC might be busy, but not
with traffic in my area; in that case I don't necessarily need flight
following. Or I might be right in the thick of the heavy traffic that
ATC is handling, in which case flight following might be justified.

> ATC is capable of deciding whether or not they are too busy to provide
> flight following the pilot need not worry about distracting them with the
> request or the service.

I suppose that's true. I hate to impose.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[TxSrv]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> It's not a contradiction. At some point my safety (and that of
> others) makes flight following necessary.

That's not true. NTSB accident statistics don't support it.
It's a service, providing only add'l assistance in the
see-and-avoid department, which is the primary way airplanes
don't hit each other.

F--