Part 135 question

[Dallas]

I realize this is a GA group but I thought some of the guys with a
commercial ticket might be able to answer this question.

I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
from the Bahamas in a Cessna 402. He managed to get the right seat and
after chatting with the pilot, he was allowed to fly the aircraft.

Are there any regulations specifically precluding a pilot from doing this
or is it at the pilot's discretion?


---
>>> Dallas <<<

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Dallas" > wrote in message
...
>I realize this is a GA group but I thought some of the guys with a
> commercial ticket might be able to answer this question.
>
> I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
> from the Bahamas in a Cessna 402. He managed to get the right seat and
> after chatting with the pilot, he was allowed to fly the aircraft.
>
> Are there any regulations specifically precluding a pilot from doing this
> or is it at the pilot's discretion?
>
>
> ---
>>>> Dallas <<<

I'd say it violates not one but maybe two sections of Part 135.

§ 135.115 Manipulation of controls.
No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the flight controls
of an aircraft during flight conducted under this part, nor may any person
manipulate the controls during such flight unless that person is-

(a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the
aircraft; or

(b) An authorized safety representative of the Administrator who has the
permission of the pilot in command, is qualified in the aircraft, and is
checking flight operations.



If it is one that has more than 8 passenger seats it also violates this one.


§ 135.113 Passenger occupancy of pilot seat.
No certificate holder may operate an aircraft type certificated after
October 15, 1971, that has a passenger seating configuration, excluding any
pilot seat, of more than eight seats if any person other than the pilot in
command, a second in command, a company check airman, or an authorized
representative of the Administrator, the National Transportation Safety
Board, or the United States Postal Service occupies a pilot seat.

[Dallas]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:41:12 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> If it is one that has more than 8 passenger seats

I think the 402 has 6 passenger seats so he's not on the hook there.

Thanks.
--
>>> Dallas <<<

[Jim Macklin]

It is a violation of the FAR to allow any passenger or pilot
not employed by the company and who has passed a checkride
to even touch the controls.
§ 135.115 Manipulation of controls.
No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the
flight controls of an aircraft during flight conducted under
this part, nor may any person manipulate the controls during
such flight unless that person is-

(a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified
in the aircraft; or

(b) An authorized safety representative of the Administrator
who has the permission of the pilot in command, is qualified
in the aircraft, and is checking flight operations.







"Dallas" > wrote in message
...
|I realize this is a GA group but I thought some of the guys
with a
| commercial ticket might be able to answer this question.
|
| I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a
commuter flight
| from the Bahamas in a Cessna 402. He managed to get the
right seat and
| after chatting with the pilot, he was allowed to fly the
aircraft.
|
| Are there any regulations specifically precluding a pilot
from doing this
| or is it at the pilot's discretion?
|
|
| ---
| >>> Dallas <<<

[Jim Macklin]

I don't think a 402 has nine seats behind the pilots' seats
up front.

But you are correct about that being a violation too. But
even in a Bonanza or Lance, passengers can't fly.



"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
|
| "Dallas" > wrote in
message
| ...
| >I realize this is a GA group but I thought some of the
guys with a
| > commercial ticket might be able to answer this question.
| >
| > I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a
commuter flight
| > from the Bahamas in a Cessna 402. He managed to get the
right seat and
| > after chatting with the pilot, he was allowed to fly the
aircraft.
| >
| > Are there any regulations specifically precluding a
pilot from doing this
| > or is it at the pilot's discretion?
| >
| >
| > ---
| >>>> Dallas <<<
|
| I'd say it violates not one but maybe two sections of Part
135.
|
| § 135.115 Manipulation of controls.
| No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the
flight controls
| of an aircraft during flight conducted under this part,
nor may any person
| manipulate the controls during such flight unless that
person is-
|
| (a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and
qualified in the
| aircraft; or
|
| (b) An authorized safety representative of the
Administrator who has the
| permission of the pilot in command, is qualified in the
aircraft, and is
| checking flight operations.
|
|
|
| If it is one that has more than 8 passenger seats it also
violates this one.
|
|
| § 135.113 Passenger occupancy of pilot seat.
| No certificate holder may operate an aircraft type
certificated after
| October 15, 1971, that has a passenger seating
configuration, excluding any
| pilot seat, of more than eight seats if any person other
than the pilot in
| command, a second in command, a company check airman, or
an authorized
| representative of the Administrator, the National
Transportation Safety
| Board, or the United States Postal Service occupies a
pilot seat.
|
|

[Steve Foley]

"Dallas" > wrote in message
...

> I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
> from the Bahamas....

Does the FAA have authority over a flight operating over international
waters?

[Brian[_1_]]

He also did not specify if he was carrying passengers. It may not have
acutally been a part 135 flight.

We used to do this a lot when transporting prisoners. When actually
transporting the prisoner we would often hire a Private pilot to ride
along as a Guard (required for our operation). The of course could not
fly while carrying the prisoners. However we often had dead head
flights where the Part 135 pilot would take off his Charter Pilot Hat
and put on his Flight Instructor Hat and give the student Dual
instruction on the deadhead portion of the flight. The PP got
inexpensive time in usually complex aircraft this way.

Brian




Dallas wrote:
> I realize this is a GA group but I thought some of the guys with a
> commercial ticket might be able to answer this question.
>
> I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
> from the Bahamas in a Cessna 402. He managed to get the right seat and
> after chatting with the pilot, he was allowed to fly the aircraft.
>
> Are there any regulations specifically precluding a pilot from doing this
> or is it at the pilot's discretion?
>
>
> ---
> >>> Dallas <<<

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:6Llbh.10350$IW2.5393@trndny03...
> "Dallas" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
>> from the Bahamas....
>
> Does the FAA have authority over a flight operating over international
> waters?
>

They do if the plane has an N number. For that matter they have authority
over an N numbered plane over foreign soil.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
>I don't think a 402 has nine seats behind the pilots' seats
> up front.
>
> But you are correct about that being a violation too. But
> even in a Bonanza or Lance, passengers can't fly.
>
>
>

Scheduled Skyways had a couple back in the late 70's early 80's that I
really think were configured for 10 pax. But we are stretching my memory
way, way too much and they might have been 404s

[Greg Farris]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>I realize this is a GA group but I thought some of the guys with a
>commercial ticket might be able to answer this question.
>
>I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
>from the Bahamas in a Cessna 402. He managed to get the right seat and
>after chatting with the pilot, he was allowed to fly the aircraft.
>
>Are there any regulations specifically precluding a pilot from doing this


YES!
Unless they were operating under Part 91. OK, you say "communter flight",
but do you specifically know it was a part 135 operation?

GF

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Brian" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> He also did not specify if he was carrying passengers. It may not have
> acutally been a part 135 flight.
>
> We used to do this a lot when transporting prisoners. When actually
> transporting the prisoner we would often hire a Private pilot to ride
> along as a Guard (required for our operation). The of course could not
> fly while carrying the prisoners. However we often had dead head
> flights where the Part 135 pilot would take off his Charter Pilot Hat
> and put on his Flight Instructor Hat and give the student Dual
> instruction on the deadhead portion of the flight. The PP got
> inexpensive time in usually complex aircraft this way.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
> Dallas wrote:
>> I realize this is a GA group but I thought some of the guys with a
>> commercial ticket might be able to answer this question.
>>
>> I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
>> from the Bahamas in a Cessna 402. He managed to get the right seat and
>> after chatting with the pilot, he was allowed to fly the aircraft.
>>
>> Are there any regulations specifically precluding a pilot from doing this
>> or is it at the pilot's discretion?
>>
>>
>> ---
>> >>> Dallas <<<
>

Brian that would be completely legal and is pretty close to how I have 1
hour of Metroliner dual time in my log book but I think it is safe to infer
from the OP that this wasn't such a case.

[Jim Macklin]

If the destination is in the USA and it is USA registered.



"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:6Llbh.10350$IW2.5393@trndny03...
| "Dallas" > wrote in
message
| ...
|
| > I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a
commuter flight
| > from the Bahamas....
|
| Does the FAA have authority over a flight operating over
international
| waters?
|
|

[Peter Duniho]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:6Llbh.10350$IW2.5393@trndny03...
>> I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
>> from the Bahamas....
>
> Does the FAA have authority over a flight operating over international
> waters?

If the flight is operating under FAA regulations, yes. This would include
an FAA-certificated pilot, a US registered airplane, and an FAA-certified
Part 135 operation (all of which are likely to apply here).

Pete

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Scheduled Skyways had a couple back in the late 70's early 80's that I
> really think were configured for 10 pax. But we are stretching my memory
> way, way too much and they might have been 404s


I vaguely remember C-402s for sale in Trade-A-Plane with the 10 pax
configuration. Frankly, I don't know why they'd offer it like that. The C-402B
that I flew would have struggled to climb with 6 out of its 7 seats filled. The
C-402 is a sweet flying airplane but it's hardly a rocket when it comes to
lifting ability.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Dallas]

On 29 Nov 2006 12:07:44 -0800, Brian wrote:

> He also did not specify if he was carrying passengers. It may not have
> acutally been a part 135 flight.


Well, I know he had his wife along so there's one passenger.

--
>>> Dallas <<<

[Jim Macklin]

As a private pilot, he also had to be a passenger, too.


"Dallas" > wrote in message
...
| On 29 Nov 2006 12:07:44 -0800, Brian wrote:
|
| > He also did not specify if he was carrying passengers.
It may not have
| > acutally been a part 135 flight.
|
|
| Well, I know he had his wife along so there's one
passenger.
|
| --
| >>> Dallas <<<

[Capt.Doug]

>"Dallas" wrote in message > I think the 402 has 6 passenger seats so he's
not on the hook there.

The C-402 came in a commuter version with 10 seats total. You are thinking
of the Business-liner option for seating.

D.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" < wrote in message
> I vaguely remember C-402s for sale in Trade-A-Plane with the 10 pax
> configuration. Frankly, I don't know why they'd offer it like that.

Cessna offered 10 seats because the C-402 was the plane of choice in the
early days of commuter airlines.

> The C-402B
> that I flew would have struggled to climb with 6 out of its 7 seats
filled. The
> C-402 is a sweet flying airplane but it's hardly a rocket when it comes to
> lifting ability.

It's a money-making airplane. It drives like a Caddy.. as long as both
engines are running.

D.

[Dallas]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:11:32 GMT, Capt.Doug wrote:

> The C-402 came in a commuter version with 10 seats total.

Hard to believe you could get 10 people and their luggage on board. I
recall it doesn't fly very far on one engine.
--
>>> Dallas <<<

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote

> It's a money-making airplane. It drives like a Caddy.. as long as both
> engines are running.

You say that like you have flown one, for a while.

You spend time, long ago, driving one of them?
--
Jim in NC

[Capt.Doug]

>"Dallas" wrote in message
> Hard to believe you could get 10 people and their luggage on board. I
> recall it doesn't fly very far on one engine.

That nose baggage compartment is bigger than it looks. It can be stuffed
with a lot of crap. I prefer the -402 over the Chieftain primarily for this
feature.

As with most light twins, there is a window of exposure where impact is
eminent if an engine fails. Usually that is from rotation to clearing
obstacles. I've never flown over gross, and I'll never do it again.
The -402B has 600 hp total and would maintain 200' MSL long enough to get me
over the buildings and to the ocean at 800 lbs over gross. The -402C has
650hp and longer wings. If the engines got me to 200', I could reach the
ocean at 1700 lbs over gross. With well maintained engines and a competent
pilot, both models will meet their certificated levels of performance.

D.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Morgans" wrote in message > You say that like you have flown one, for a
while.
> You spend time, long ago, driving one of them?

Seems like only yesterday.....
1900 hours in -402s over 650 miles of ocean to third world countries. My
check-airman letter covers all -400 series.

D.

[Blueskies]

"Dallas" > wrote in message ...
: On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:11:32 GMT, Capt.Doug wrote:
:
: > The C-402 came in a commuter version with 10 seats total.
:
: Hard to believe you could get 10 people and their luggage on board. I
: recall it doesn't fly very far on one engine.
: --
: >>> Dallas <<<

We used to carry 8 plus us pilots...

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Blueskies wrote:
>>> The C-402 came in a commuter version with 10 seats total.
>>
>> Hard to believe you could get 10 people and their luggage on board. I
>> recall it doesn't fly very far on one engine.
>> --
>>>>> Dallas <<<
>
> We used to carry 8 plus us pilots...



Uh... that's 10.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Ron Natalie]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> "Steve Foley" > wrote in message
> news:6Llbh.10350$IW2.5393@trndny03...
>> "Dallas" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> I have a friend with a PP-SEL that was coming back on a commuter flight
>>> from the Bahamas....
>> Does the FAA have authority over a flight operating over international
>> waters?
>>
>
> They do if the plane has an N number. For that matter they have authority
> over an N numbered plane over foreign soil.
>
>
And if it's operating on an US operators certificate (135).

[Blueskies]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
: Blueskies wrote:
: >>> The C-402 came in a commuter version with 10 seats total.
: >>
: >> Hard to believe you could get 10 people and their luggage on board. I
: >> recall it doesn't fly very far on one engine.
: >> --
: >>>>> Dallas <<<
: >
: > We used to carry 8 plus us pilots...
:
:
:
: Uh... that's 10.
:
:
:
: --
: Mortimer Schnerd, RN
: mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
:
:

Uh, yeah...glad to see you can add too...

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Blueskies wrote:
>>>>> The C-402 came in a commuter version with 10 seats total.
>>>>
>>>> Hard to believe you could get 10 people and their luggage on board. I
>>>> recall it doesn't fly very far on one engine.
>>>
>>> We used to carry 8 plus us pilots...
>>
>> Uh... that's 10.
>
> Uh, yeah...glad to see you can add too...


Darn tootin'. I went to kollage. Now I are a nurse.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com