Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel

[bbutlergps]

Howdy,
I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
either the:
Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
Thanks,
Bill

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"bbutlergps" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Howdy,
> I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> either the:
> Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
> Thanks,
> Bill
>

Have you found the Matronics Zenith Mailing list and forum yet. If not
follow the link below. Lots of 710 builders are there.

http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=2

[karel]

"bbutlergps" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Howdy,
> I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> either the:
> Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
> Thanks,
> Bill
>

not very clear where you are,
so availability is a major concern.
but since you seem interested in european engines,
have a look at the gaz_aile,
it uses the diesel engine from the Citroen AX
and peugeot 106, not the most modern engine,
but simple (no electronics!) and reliable.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaz'aile_2#Le_moteur

http://gazaile2.free.fr/

[bbutlergps]

Hey thanks so much for Matronics list. I didn't ever run across that
before.
Thanks again,
Bill
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> "bbutlergps" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > Howdy,
> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> > either the:
> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
> >
>
> Have you found the Matronics Zenith Mailing list and forum yet. If not
> follow the link below. Lots of 710 builders are there.
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=2

[bbutlergps]

I am in Texas and my French only works in Paris, Texas that is so I
can't quite read that website on the Gaz_aile.
Would you know how much it weighs and what the output is?
Transportation isn't too big of a problem as long as you have time
(ship) 6 weeks plus. I can pick it up anywhere along the Eastern sea
board or Houston.
Thanks,
Bill
karel wrote:
> "bbutlergps" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > Howdy,
> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> > either the:
> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
> >
>
> not very clear where you are,
> so availability is a major concern.
> but since you seem interested in european engines,
> have a look at the gaz_aile,
> it uses the diesel engine from the Citroen AX
> and peugeot 106, not the most modern engine,
> but simple (no electronics!) and reliable.
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaz'aile_2#Le_moteur
>
> http://gazaile2.free.fr/

[Morgans[_2_]]

"bbutlergps" > wrote

> I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> either the:
> Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.

Be sure if you go with an auto diesel conversion, that the fuel pump does not
need the oily content of the diesel to keep from wearing out prematurely. Jet
fuel (which I am assuming you will be using) does not lubricate as well as
diesel, and some converters have had problems with their fuel pumps, as a
result.
--
Jim in NC

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Look forward to seeing you there.


"bbutlergps" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hey thanks so much for Matronics list. I didn't ever run across that
> before.
> Thanks again,
> Bill
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> "bbutlergps" > wrote in message
>> ps.com...
>> > Howdy,
>> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
>> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
>> > either the:
>> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
>> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
>> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
>> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
>> > Thanks,
>> > Bill
>> >
>>
>> Have you found the Matronics Zenith Mailing list and forum yet. If not
>> follow the link below. Lots of 710 builders are there.
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=2
>

[[email protected]]

bbutlergps wrote:
> Howdy,
> I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> either the:
> Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
> Thanks,
> Bill


Go here...................>
http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm


And then click on their prices and you will find a smart engine diesel
all ready to install into aircraft.

Hope this helps

[bbutlergps]

No this aircraft is going to be manly flying to from our Ranch in North
Texas. It isn't going to be a cross country plane. I have several
reason to want to go the route of the Diesel one of which is the
ability to get / use tax free off road diesel.
Thanks,
Bill

Morgans wrote:
> "bbutlergps" > wrote
>
> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> > either the:
> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
>
> Be sure if you go with an auto diesel conversion, that the fuel pump does not
> need the oily content of the diesel to keep from wearing out prematurely. Jet
> fuel (which I am assuming you will be using) does not lubricate as well as
> diesel, and some converters have had problems with their fuel pumps, as a
> result.
> --
> Jim in NC

[flybynightkarmarepair]

wrote:

>
> Go here...................>
> http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
>
>
> And then click on their prices and you will find a smart engine diesel
> all ready to install into aircraft.

All the technical information is about the GAS version of the engine.
The listed weight is 57Kg all up for that version. As a SWAG, I'll bet
the Diesel is about 20-30% heavier.

[karel]

"bbutlergps" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>I am in Texas and my French only works in Paris, Texas that is so I
> can't quite read that website on the Gaz_aile.
> Would you know how much it weighs and what the output is?
> Transportation isn't too big of a problem as long as you have time
> (ship) 6 weeks plus. I can pick it up anywhere along the Eastern sea
> board or Houston.

their website says
"il donne 53 CV à 5000 t/mn, pour 80 kg nu."
which I would translate quite literally as
if gives 53 HP at 5000 rpm, for a naked weight of 80 kgs.
I suppose the "naked" means without alternator, radiatior &C
In case you not know what kg is, 80 kgs corresponds roughly to 177lbs.

PS could yo kindly post your replies BELOW
the text you are answering to?

[karel]

"karel" > wrote in message
...
>

( ... )
> their website says
> "il donne 53 CV à 5000 t/mn, pour 80 kg nu."

more from their website:

"Très facile à trouver en occasion pour 300 euros ou en échange standard
pour 1 500 euros contre 13 000 euros pour un Rotax, et pas plus compliqué qu’un
bon vieux VW."

this engine is easily found secondhand for 300 euro's or 1500 for a factory
rebuild, as apposed to 13000 euro's for a Rotax. And no more complicated
than a good old Volkswagen engine.

I have some issues here: I wouldn't like to fly behind an engine savaged
from a junkyard for 300 euro's, not unless profoundly revised which would
probably be most expensive except for those who can do it themselves. OTOH
1500 euro's for a factory rebuild sounds like a nice deal!

Not a word on the reduction, though, or I should have missed it.

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:34:22 -0000, "karel" >
wrote:

>
>"karel" > wrote in message
...
>>
>
>( ... )
>> their website says
>> "il donne 53 CV Ã* 5000 t/mn, pour 80 kg nu."
>
>more from their website:
>
>"Très facile Ã* trouver en occasion pour 300 euros ou en échange standard
>pour 1 500 euros contre 13 000 euros pour un Rotax, et pas plus compliqué qu’un
>bon vieux VW."
>
>this engine is easily found secondhand for 300 euro's or 1500 for a factory
>rebuild, as apposed to 13000 euro's for a Rotax. And no more complicated
>than a good old Volkswagen engine.
>
>I have some issues here: I wouldn't like to fly behind an engine savaged
>from a junkyard for 300 euro's, not unless profoundly revised which would
>probably be most expensive except for those who can do it themselves. OTOH
>1500 euro's for a factory rebuild sounds like a nice deal!
>
>Not a word on the reduction, though, or I should have missed it.
>
The scrapyard engine could be totally beat, or it may have been
replaced just days before the vehicle was damaged beyond repair -
making it a virtually brand new engine -- or anything in between. I've
seen some REAL GOOD engines sell cheap at the scrapyard,(and bought a
few) and I've paid top dollar for some pretty crappy ones (which were
returned).
An example of the good ones? I paid $100 for a corvair engine which
had been rebuilt less than 10,000 miles ago by a very anal german
craftsman.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[karel]

<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:34:22 -0000, "karel" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"karel" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>
>>( ... )
>>> their website says
>>> "il donne 53 CV à 5000 t/mn, pour 80 kg nu."
>>
>>more from their website:
>>
>>"Très facile à trouver en occasion pour 300 euros ou en échange standard
>>pour 1 500 euros contre 13 000 euros pour un Rotax, et pas plus compliqué
>>qu'un
>>bon vieux VW."
>>
>>this engine is easily found secondhand for 300 euro's or 1500 for a
>>factory
>>rebuild, as apposed to 13000 euro's for a Rotax. And no more complicated
>>than a good old Volkswagen engine.
>>
>>I have some issues here: I wouldn't like to fly behind an engine savaged
>>from a junkyard for 300 euro's, not unless profoundly revised which would
>>probably be most expensive except for those who can do it themselves. OTOH
>>1500 euro's for a factory rebuild sounds like a nice deal!
>>
>>Not a word on the reduction, though, or I should have missed it.
>>
> The scrapyard engine could be totally beat, or it may have been
> replaced just days before the vehicle was damaged beyond repair -
> making it a virtually brand new engine -- or anything in between. I've
> seen some REAL GOOD engines sell cheap at the scrapyard,(and bought a
> few) and I've paid top dollar for some pretty crappy ones (which were
> returned).

Agreed, but that's exactly my point:
if you're not an expert, how can you tell them apart?
And the O/P seems to consider shipping one
from Europe to the US, so a return is not that easy
and certainly not free.
That's why I would prefer the factory rebuild option.

[Kyle Boatright]

"bbutlergps" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> No this aircraft is going to be manly flying to from our Ranch in North
> Texas. It isn't going to be a cross country plane. I have several
> reason to want to go the route of the Diesel one of which is the
> ability to get / use tax free off road diesel.
> Thanks,
> Bill

Is tax free off-road diesel fuel cheaper than regular unleaded?

[Peter Dohm]

> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> > either the:
> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
>
> Be sure if you go with an auto diesel conversion, that the fuel pump does
not
> need the oily content of the diesel to keep from wearing out prematurely.
Jet
> fuel (which I am assuming you will be using) does not lubricate as well as
> diesel, and some converters have had problems with their fuel pumps, as a
> result.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
Thanks for some interesting new info. I had been fascinated by the diesel
idea for a while, but gave up because of the weight penalty of the only
diesels commonly available here in the USA. The primary reason for my
interest was the continued availability of fuel (Jet-A) in the event that
gasolene ceased to be available at most airports. I suspect that the fuel
pumps for the newer electronically controlled "common rail" diesels are
fairly tolerant; but, if Jet-A and Diesel fuels are not fully
interchangeable, then diesel conversions could be very difficult to justify.

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

> >
> > Go here...................>
> > http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
> >
> >
> > And then click on their prices and you will find a smart engine diesel
> > all ready to install into aircraft.
>
> All the technical information is about the GAS version of the engine.
> The listed weight is 57Kg all up for that version. As a SWAG, I'll bet
> the Diesel is about 20-30% heavier.
>

That's probably a good estimate. The only solid information that I found
while I interested in the subject was that the diesel option added about 100
pounds to the curb weight of a current production VW Golf or Jetta. My best
guess would be that 90 pounds of that is the difference in the engine
weight.

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

> Howdy,
> I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> either the:
> Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
Sorry to rain on your parade, but...
That looks like a good way to turn on the "chip detector." :-(

It is really trivial for cars, which almost never run more than about 30% of
maximum power for extended periods. It is troublesome in trucks, and leads
to shorter engine life--but the only casualty is the owner's checkbook.
However in an airplane, I would take the manufacturer's power rating for
truck use, reduce it by another 10%, and then consider maximum cruising
power to be about 60 to 65% of that result.

I know that a lot of conversion advocates regard that as heresy, but I am
much more concerned that even I may still be too optomistic!

Peter

[[email protected]]

flybynightkarmarepair wrote:
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Go here...................>
> > http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
> >
> >
> > And then click on their prices and you will find a smart engine diesel
> > all ready to install into aircraft.
>
> All the technical information is about the GAS version of the engine.


I think if you look around the website a little more you will notice
they also sell a smart car diesel aircraft engine.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote

> I suspect that the fuel
> pumps for the newer electronically controlled "common rail" diesels are
> fairly tolerant; but, if Jet-A and Diesel fuels are not fully
> interchangeable, then diesel conversions could be very difficult to justify.

This is not to say that some engines are not fully capable of burning jet fuel.
Some are.

It is just saying that you need to find out if multiple people have put some
good hours on the engine burning Jet A, without problems, before you go for it.
If it is out there, it is a good bet that someone has used it. Find out, to
avoid surprises.
--
Jim in NC

[Owe R.]

<clare at snyder.on.ca> skrev i meddelandet
...
> wrote:
Snipp a lot
>
> had been rebuilt less than 10,000 miles ago by a very anal german
> craftsman.
>

anal???

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 08:46:47 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Peter Dohm" > wrote
>
>> I suspect that the fuel
>> pumps for the newer electronically controlled "common rail" diesels are
>> fairly tolerant; but, if Jet-A and Diesel fuels are not fully
>> interchangeable, then diesel conversions could be very difficult to justify.
>
>This is not to say that some engines are not fully capable of burning jet fuel.
>Some are.
>
>It is just saying that you need to find out if multiple people have put some
>good hours on the engine burning Jet A, without problems, before you go for it.
>If it is out there, it is a good bet that someone has used it. Find out, to
>avoid surprises.
Add a bit of oil to Jet "A" and it's fine in any deisel. Kerosene is
also an option.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[bbutlergps]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "bbutlergps" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > No this aircraft is going to be manly flying to from our Ranch in North
> > Texas. It isn't going to be a cross country plane. I have several
> > reason to want to go the route of the Diesel one of which is the
> > ability to get / use tax free off road diesel.
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
>
> Is tax free off-road diesel fuel cheaper than regular unleaded?

Tax in Texas on over the road diesel is 44.4 a gallon. However off road
disel is also cheaper than on road diesel even after you subtract the
tax and purchasing in larger quanitites. I haven't priced off road
diesel in quite some time but last time I checked it was around $1.80.
Unleaded at the pumps are at $2.15.
Bill

[Morgans[_2_]]

"bbutlergps" > wrote

> Tax in Texas on over the road diesel is 44.4 a gallon. However off road
> disel is also cheaper than on road diesel even after you subtract the
> tax and purchasing in larger quanitites. I haven't priced off road
> diesel in quite some time but last time I checked it was around $1.80.
> Unleaded at the pumps are at $2.15.

If you were to get a diesel working well in an airplane, you would likely see a
saving not only on fuel price, but the fact that the fuel will last longer in
the air.
--
Jim in NC

[Barnyard BOb]

"Morgans" wrote:

>If you were to get a diesel working well in an airplane, you would likely see a
>saving not only on fuel price, but the fact that....



>the fuel will last longer in the air. <<<<

Wow.
Who would have thought that fuel
wouldn't last longer.... underground?

What's the catch, Morgans....?

*AIR* TANKS?


-Barnyard BOb-

The more people I meet,
the more I love my dog....
and George Carlin humor.

[Rob Turk[_1_]]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
...
>>
> Sorry to rain on your parade, but...
> That looks like a good way to turn on the "chip detector." :-(
>
> It is really trivial for cars, which almost never run more than about 30%
> of
> maximum power for extended periods. It is troublesome in trucks, and
> leads
> to shorter engine life--but the only casualty is the owner's checkbook.
> However in an airplane, I would take the manufacturer's power rating for
> truck use, reduce it by another 10%, and then consider maximum cruising
> power to be about 60 to 65% of that result.
>
> I know that a lot of conversion advocates regard that as heresy, but I am
> much more concerned that even I may still be too optomistic!
>
> Peter

Good advice, Peter. Finally someone with a SMART answer ;-)

Rob

[Clay]

I think he was refering to G.P.H.

Barnyard BOb wrote:
> "Morgans" wrote:
>
> >If you were to get a diesel working well in an airplane, you would likely see a
> >saving not only on fuel price, but the fact that....
>
>
>
> >the fuel will last longer in the air. <<<<
>
> Wow.
> Who would have thought that fuel
> wouldn't last longer.... underground?
>
> What's the catch, Morgans....?
>
> *AIR* TANKS?
>
>
> -Barnyard BOb-
>
> The more people I meet,
> the more I love my dog....
> and George Carlin humor.

[Montblack]

("bbutlergps" wrote)
> I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested in
> going the route of a diesel.


I like the Toyota (Yaris, and other models) 1.4 D-4D (ALL Aluminum) Turbo
Diesel engine

I'm having trouble finding a variety of good links to the engine's specs.

Toyota .................1.4 D-4D
Horsepower ........90 @ 3,800
Torque ...............190 @ 1,800-3,000
Weight ..................99kg
(weight includes many extras: turbos for one)

From the below link:
"...VVT-i continuous variable valve timing although Daihatsu called it
"DVVT" instead (D for Daihatsu?)"

This is on the normally aspirated 1.3 model. I suspect the 1.4 D4-D is also
DVVT --- which is a plus for Sport Pilot applications, since constant speed
props are out.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/y75lou
(Same link as below ...wait for it)

R.A.H. April 13, 2006
"Toyota (aluminum) Diesel 1.4 D-4D ...89 bhp"
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/browse_thread/thread/b3b8e5555c3abf7c/32d5049bec028d5b%2332d5049bec028d5b


http://www.geocities.com/plane_diesel/index2.html
Good info on the Toyota Ya(n)is 1.4 Turbo Diesel engine

In conclusion:
1. Toyota 1.4 D4-D should be able to turn a prop at 2400-3000, WITHOUT
needing a PSRU.
2. Direct injected Turbo Diesel will do well with this LSA requirement: "A
maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not
more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level."
3. If it's a single seat LSA, the weight penalty is not as much of an
issue.
4. Throttled back to 2400rpm, I would think the 1.4 D4-D would cruise
around all day @ (under) 2 GPH ...just a guess. <g>
5. Turbo cruise would mean Sport Pilot/LSA flights @ 8k-10k ft might see
140-150 kts (GPS) ground speeds. ...just a guess. <g>


Montblack-smoke-out-the-exhaust-pipe

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Clay" > wrote
....
>I think he was refering to G.P.H.

It's OK, Clay. Barnyard has this thing for me. He knew what I meant. He is
just...well, "special." <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Barnyard BOb" > wrote

> Who would have thought that fuel
> wouldn't last longer.... underground?
>
> What's the catch, Morgans....?
>
> *AIR* TANKS?

You broke your long absence, ... for this?

I'll ask the same thing. What's the catch??? <g>

It will last longer while at cruise, as opposed to while in ground operations?

Yeah, that's the ticket! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[bbutlergps]

Montblack wrote:
> ("bbutlergps" wrote)
> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested in
> > going the route of a diesel.
>
>
> I like the Toyota (Yaris, and other models) 1.4 D-4D (ALL Aluminum) Turbo
> Diesel engine
>
> I'm having trouble finding a variety of good links to the engine's specs.
>
> Toyota .................1.4 D-4D
> Horsepower ........90 @ 3,800
> Torque ...............190 @ 1,800-3,000
> Weight ..................99kg
> (weight includes many extras: turbos for one)
>
> From the below link:
> "...VVT-i continuous variable valve timing although Daihatsu called it
> "DVVT" instead (D for Daihatsu?)"
>
> This is on the normally aspirated 1.3 model. I suspect the 1.4 D4-D is also
> DVVT --- which is a plus for Sport Pilot applications, since constant speed
> props are out.
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/y75lou
> (Same link as below ...wait for it)
>
> R.A.H. April 13, 2006
> "Toyota (aluminum) Diesel 1.4 D-4D ...89 bhp"
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/browse_thread/thread/b3b8e5555c3abf7c/32d5049bec028d5b%2332d5049bec028d5b
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/plane_diesel/index2.html
> Good info on the Toyota Ya(n)is 1.4 Turbo Diesel engine
>
> In conclusion:
> 1. Toyota 1.4 D4-D should be able to turn a prop at 2400-3000, WITHOUT
> needing a PSRU.
> 2. Direct injected Turbo Diesel will do well with this LSA requirement: "A
> maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not
> more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level."
> 3. If it's a single seat LSA, the weight penalty is not as much of an
> issue.
> 4. Throttled back to 2400rpm, I would think the 1.4 D4-D would cruise
> around all day @ (under) 2 GPH ...just a guess. <g>
> 5. Turbo cruise would mean Sport Pilot/LSA flights @ 8k-10k ft might see
> 140-150 kts (GPS) ground speeds. ...just a guess. <g>
>
>
> Montblack-smoke-out-the-exhaust-pipe

Montblack,
Thanks so much for this type of information. Are you in Euro? Keeping
it coming.
Thanks again,
Bill

[Philippe Vessaire]

Montblack wrote:

I own this engine in my car...

> In conclusion:
> 1. Toyota 1.4 D4-D should be able to turn a prop at 2400-3000,
> WITHOUT needing a PSRU.
But with low power: around 47kW/65HP at 2500 and near 110kg with all
accessories, water and oil.
On the optimistic side, you may have 75HP at 3000 rpm.

I thnik it's better to built a PSRU and turn the propeller at 2200rpm
for 3500 engine rpm. You add 5-10kg and get 15-20HP


> 3. If it's a single seat LSA, the weight penalty is not as much of an
> issue.
> 4. Throttled back to 2400rpm, I would think the 1.4 D4-D would cruise
> around all day @ (under) 2 GPH ...just a guess. <g>

I think 4GPH would be more real. I consider 3,5 to 4 GPH for 65HP.
I take 180g/h/HP for fuel burn (or 395lb/h/HP)



> 5. Turbo cruise would mean Sport Pilot/LSA flights @ 8k-10k ft might
> see 140-150 kts (GPS) ground speeds. ...just a guess. <g>
True, I like turbo for that... Consider that automotive turbo may stall
earlier than airplane ones.

We have some small diesel in Europe, but few are realy light and
reliable.


By
--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Philippe Vessaire]

bbutlergps wrote:

>> This is on the normally aspirated 1.3 model. I suspect the 1.4 D4-D
>> is also DVVT --- which is a plus for Sport Pilot applications, since
>> constant speed props are out.

No VVT on any diesel to day.


My diesel dream
http://www.daihatsu.com/motorshow/frankfurt05/pdf/e.pdf

read from page 25 about 2CDDI-2

but it seems to be vapor...

By
--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[bbutlergps]

Philippe Vessaire wrote:
> Montblack wrote:
>
> I own this engine in my car...
>
> > In conclusion:
> > 1. Toyota 1.4 D4-D should be able to turn a prop at 2400-3000,
> > WITHOUT needing a PSRU.
> But with low power: around 47kW/65HP at 2500 and near 110kg with all
> accessories, water and oil.
> On the optimistic side, you may have 75HP at 3000 rpm.
>
> I thnik it's better to built a PSRU and turn the propeller at 2200rpm
> for 3500 engine rpm. You add 5-10kg and get 15-20HP
>
>
> > 3. If it's a single seat LSA, the weight penalty is not as much of an
> > issue.
> > 4. Throttled back to 2400rpm, I would think the 1.4 D4-D would cruise
> > around all day @ (under) 2 GPH ...just a guess. <g>
>
> I think 4GPH would be more real. I consider 3,5 to 4 GPH for 65HP.
> I take 180g/h/HP for fuel burn (or 395lb/h/HP)
>
>
>
> > 5. Turbo cruise would mean Sport Pilot/LSA flights @ 8k-10k ft might
> > see 140-150 kts (GPS) ground speeds. ...just a guess. <g>
> True, I like turbo for that... Consider that automotive turbo may stall
> earlier than airplane ones.
>
> We have some small diesel in Europe, but few are realy light and
> reliable.
>
>
> By
> --
> Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
> Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬
>

Philippe,
With that weight at 110 kg or 242 lbs might be over my weight limit.
Could that engine that you have in your car be chipped up to increase
the HP? What model car is it?
Thanks,
Bill

[Philippe Vessaire]

bbutlergps wrote:


> With that weight at 110 kg or 242 lbs might be over my weight limit.
> Could that engine that you have in your car be chipped up to increase
> the HP? What model car is it?
The car: corolla (55-60 mpg car)
the engine: 1364cm³ 90HP@3800rpm

try http://www.toyota.co.uk
and read all about the Yaris (Echo) and Corolla and the D-4D engines.
Toyota engine name: 1NDTV

Note: the torque decrease slitly after 3000rpm, max value is 190Nm flat
from 1800rpm to 3000rpm.

I think you may tune up to 105-110HP.
read here: http://www.tuningbox.com/ for Corolla 1.4 D4D

You may cut out come cast fittings and save little weight. With 2
gallons for cooling fluid, one radiator and hoses, you add 14-15lbs.

If you need to save more weight, you may consider less fuel.



I am thinking about a basic engine ECU with a sychronised monostable,
4 sensors and 4 OR gates.
It is too simple, a manifold pressure correction is required as fuel
injection time (and flow) correction.

A friend think about megasquirt ECU
http://www.megasquirt.info/



By
--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[PH-CAQ]

bbutlergps schreef:

> Howdy,
> I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> either the:
> Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
> Thanks,
> Bill

Bill
don't consider chiptuning the smart engine. It was not designed for it
and no body has any experience with it. Beside that the engine is not
available in the US. Look at http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
The VW diesel is an interesting one. Some club members are working on a
conversion, but keep in mind, the engine is heavy
I use a BMW R1100 rs on a Pelican. A well designed PSRU comming from
germany (http://www.takeoff-ul.de/) gives me 95 kts and 3,5 gallon
fuel/hour

Ton (the Netherlands)

[Montblack]

("bbutlergps" wrote)
> Thanks so much for this type of information. Are you in Euro?


Nope. Minnesota.


Montblack

[bbutlergps]

PH-CAQ wrote:
> bbutlergps schreef:
>
> > Howdy,
> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
> > either the:
> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
>
> Bill
> don't consider chiptuning the smart engine. It was not designed for it
> and no body has any experience with it. Beside that the engine is not
> available in the US. Look at http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
> The VW diesel is an interesting one. Some club members are working on a
> conversion, but keep in mind, the engine is heavy
> I use a BMW R1100 rs on a Pelican. A well designed PSRU comming from
> germany (http://www.takeoff-ul.de/) gives me 95 kts and 3,5 gallon
> fuel/hour
>
> Ton (the Netherlands)

Ton,
I have seen pictures of the Smart Mercedes Turbo Diesel in both a
Zenith 701 and 601, an FK 9 (Eco Fly) as well as an ultralight "Rohmas"
(sp?). I have also seen in Poland a trike with the VW Lupo turbo diesel
engine as well. Some of the comments I have gotten isn't too great
mostly about lack of HP. The Smart Engines that were being used were
the smaller ones found in the TwoFour. I am interested in the weight of
the larger ones found in the ForFour? Here in the US we aren't too
bright cutting production of diesel in automotive industry. Damiler
Chrysler has a diesel in the Jeep Liberty and other models will be
introduced soon. Honda will be having a diesel coming in the next
couple of years.
I know that Smart Diesel aren't here in the US but I would be willing
to look at have an engine shipped over from overseas.
I have had many questions answered and thank you. The one that I don't
have an answer for is the wieght of the Smart ForFour Turbo Diesel
Engine, anybody?
Thanks,
Bill

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On 7 Dec 2006 06:41:35 -0800, "bbutlergps" >
wrote:

>
>PH-CAQ wrote:
>> bbutlergps schreef:
>>
>> > Howdy,
>> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
>> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
>> > either the:
>> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
>> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
>> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
>> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
>> > Thanks,
>> > Bill
>>
>> Bill
>> don't consider chiptuning the smart engine. It was not designed for it
>> and no body has any experience with it. Beside that the engine is not
>> available in the US. Look at http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
>> The VW diesel is an interesting one. Some club members are working on a
>> conversion, but keep in mind, the engine is heavy
>> I use a BMW R1100 rs on a Pelican. A well designed PSRU comming from
>> germany (http://www.takeoff-ul.de/) gives me 95 kts and 3,5 gallon
>> fuel/hour
>>
>> Ton (the Netherlands)
>
>Ton,
>I have seen pictures of the Smart Mercedes Turbo Diesel in both a
>Zenith 701 and 601, an FK 9 (Eco Fly) as well as an ultralight "Rohmas"
>(sp?). I have also seen in Poland a trike with the VW Lupo turbo diesel
>engine as well. Some of the comments I have gotten isn't too great
>mostly about lack of HP. The Smart Engines that were being used were
>the smaller ones found in the TwoFour. I am interested in the weight of
>the larger ones found in the ForFour? Here in the US we aren't too
>bright cutting production of diesel in automotive industry. Damiler
>Chrysler has a diesel in the Jeep Liberty and other models will be
>introduced soon. Honda will be having a diesel coming in the next
>couple of years.
>I know that Smart Diesel aren't here in the US but I would be willing
>to look at have an engine shipped over from overseas.
>I have had many questions answered and thank you. The one that I don't
>have an answer for is the wieght of the Smart ForFour Turbo Diesel
>Engine, anybody?
>Thanks,
>Bill

Forget overseas - just hop north across the border into Canada. We've
hat the Smart TD for several years now. (I've never seen a wreck
though)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:40 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On 7 Dec 2006 06:41:35 -0800, "bbutlergps" >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>PH-CAQ wrote:
>>> bbutlergps schreef:
>>>
>>> > Howdy,
>>> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
>>> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
>>> > either the:
>>> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
>>> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
>>> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
>>> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Bill
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> don't consider chiptuning the smart engine. It was not designed for it
>>> and no body has any experience with it. Beside that the engine is not
>>> available in the US. Look at http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
>>> The VW diesel is an interesting one. Some club members are working on a
>>> conversion, but keep in mind, the engine is heavy
>>> I use a BMW R1100 rs on a Pelican. A well designed PSRU comming from
>>> germany (http://www.takeoff-ul.de/) gives me 95 kts and 3,5 gallon
>>> fuel/hour
>>>
>>> Ton (the Netherlands)
>>
>>Ton,
>>I have seen pictures of the Smart Mercedes Turbo Diesel in both a
>>Zenith 701 and 601, an FK 9 (Eco Fly) as well as an ultralight "Rohmas"
>>(sp?). I have also seen in Poland a trike with the VW Lupo turbo diesel
>>engine as well. Some of the comments I have gotten isn't too great
>>mostly about lack of HP. The Smart Engines that were being used were
>>the smaller ones found in the TwoFour. I am interested in the weight of
>>the larger ones found in the ForFour? Here in the US we aren't too
>>bright cutting production of diesel in automotive industry. Damiler
>>Chrysler has a diesel in the Jeep Liberty and other models will be
>>introduced soon. Honda will be having a diesel coming in the next
>>couple of years.
>>I know that Smart Diesel aren't here in the US but I would be willing
>>to look at have an engine shipped over from overseas.
>>I have had many questions answered and thank you. The one that I don't
>>have an answer for is the wieght of the Smart ForFour Turbo Diesel
>>Engine, anybody?
>>Thanks,
>>Bill
>
>Forget overseas - just hop north across the border into Canada. We've
>hat the Smart TD for several years now. (I've never seen a wreck
>though)
>
>--
>Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>
We only get the twofour though. I guess it's an Ontario beer thing :)

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 03:12:03 GMT, (Drew
Dalgleish) wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:40 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>On 7 Dec 2006 06:41:35 -0800, "bbutlergps" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>PH-CAQ wrote:
>>>> bbutlergps schreef:
>>>>
>>>> > Howdy,
>>>> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
>>>> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
>>>> > either the:
>>>> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
>>>> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
>>>> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
>>>> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> > Bill
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>> don't consider chiptuning the smart engine. It was not designed for it
>>>> and no body has any experience with it. Beside that the engine is not
>>>> available in the US. Look at http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
>>>> The VW diesel is an interesting one. Some club members are working on a
>>>> conversion, but keep in mind, the engine is heavy
>>>> I use a BMW R1100 rs on a Pelican. A well designed PSRU comming from
>>>> germany (http://www.takeoff-ul.de/) gives me 95 kts and 3,5 gallon
>>>> fuel/hour
>>>>
>>>> Ton (the Netherlands)
>>>
>>>Ton,
>>>I have seen pictures of the Smart Mercedes Turbo Diesel in both a
>>>Zenith 701 and 601, an FK 9 (Eco Fly) as well as an ultralight "Rohmas"
>>>(sp?). I have also seen in Poland a trike with the VW Lupo turbo diesel
>>>engine as well. Some of the comments I have gotten isn't too great
>>>mostly about lack of HP. The Smart Engines that were being used were
>>>the smaller ones found in the TwoFour. I am interested in the weight of
>>>the larger ones found in the ForFour? Here in the US we aren't too
>>>bright cutting production of diesel in automotive industry. Damiler
>>>Chrysler has a diesel in the Jeep Liberty and other models will be
>>>introduced soon. Honda will be having a diesel coming in the next
>>>couple of years.
>>>I know that Smart Diesel aren't here in the US but I would be willing
>>>to look at have an engine shipped over from overseas.
>>>I have had many questions answered and thank you. The one that I don't
>>>have an answer for is the wieght of the Smart ForFour Turbo Diesel
>>>Engine, anybody?
>>>Thanks,
>>>Bill
>>
>>Forget overseas - just hop north across the border into Canada. We've
>>hat the Smart TD for several years now. (I've never seen a wreck
>>though)
>>
>>--
>>Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>
>We only get the twofour though. I guess it's an Ontario beer thing :)


Too many beers makes you dislexic. Its a for two, not a two four.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:05:34 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 03:12:03 GMT, (Drew
>Dalgleish) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:40 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>On 7 Dec 2006 06:41:35 -0800, "bbutlergps" >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>PH-CAQ wrote:
>>>>> bbutlergps schreef:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Howdy,
>>>>> > I am looking into a power plant for a Zenith 701. I am very interested
>>>>> > in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have any information on
>>>>> > either the:
>>>>> > Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 112
>>>>> > hp) found in the Smart ForFour or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4
>>>>> > liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be chipped up to 108 hp)
>>>>> > What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>> > Bill
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> don't consider chiptuning the smart engine. It was not designed for it
>>>>> and no body has any experience with it. Beside that the engine is not
>>>>> available in the US. Look at http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm
>>>>> The VW diesel is an interesting one. Some club members are working on a
>>>>> conversion, but keep in mind, the engine is heavy
>>>>> I use a BMW R1100 rs on a Pelican. A well designed PSRU comming from
>>>>> germany (http://www.takeoff-ul.de/) gives me 95 kts and 3,5 gallon
>>>>> fuel/hour
>>>>>
>>>>> Ton (the Netherlands)
>>>>
>>>>Ton,
>>>>I have seen pictures of the Smart Mercedes Turbo Diesel in both a
>>>>Zenith 701 and 601, an FK 9 (Eco Fly) as well as an ultralight "Rohmas"
>>>>(sp?). I have also seen in Poland a trike with the VW Lupo turbo diesel
>>>>engine as well. Some of the comments I have gotten isn't too great
>>>>mostly about lack of HP. The Smart Engines that were being used were
>>>>the smaller ones found in the TwoFour. I am interested in the weight of
>>>>the larger ones found in the ForFour? Here in the US we aren't too
>>>>bright cutting production of diesel in automotive industry. Damiler
>>>>Chrysler has a diesel in the Jeep Liberty and other models will be
>>>>introduced soon. Honda will be having a diesel coming in the next
>>>>couple of years.
>>>>I know that Smart Diesel aren't here in the US but I would be willing
>>>>to look at have an engine shipped over from overseas.
>>>>I have had many questions answered and thank you. The one that I don't
>>>>have an answer for is the wieght of the Smart ForFour Turbo Diesel
>>>>Engine, anybody?
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Bill
>>>
>>>Forget overseas - just hop north across the border into Canada. We've
>>>hat the Smart TD for several years now. (I've never seen a wreck
>>>though)
>>>
>>>--
>>>Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>>>
>>We only get the twofour though. I guess it's an Ontario beer thing :)
>
>
>Too many beers makes you dislexic. Its a for two, not a two four.

Oops (hic) lexdisic I am

[kumaros]

bbutlergps wrote:
>
> PH-CAQ wrote:
>> bbutlergps schreef:
> I have had many questions answered and thank you. The one that I don't
> have an answer for is the wieght of the Smart ForFour Turbo Diesel
> Engine, anybody?
> Thanks,
> Bill
>

Bill,
a couple of months ago I bought a wrecked Mitsubishi Colt
CZ3 DID (the twin of the Smart Forfour) for its engine. I
haven't taken it out of the car yet, but since the engine
block is cast iron, it shouldn't be too light. I'm going to
use it anyway. With the engine out of the car I'll let you
know about its definite weight. In my opinion, the Toyota
and the PSA group light alloy diesels are the way to go.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me

[[email protected]]

I would be interestedin a diesel in the 200hp range. Is anyone out
there converting any 200hp doesel automotive engines?

[bbutlergps]

Kumaros,
Yes please keep me informed. Does this Colt Clone engine manufactored
by Mercedes? Also is it 3 or 4 cyl and how many hp does it put out. And
most important please let me know its weight.
Thanks,
Bill

kumaros wrote:
> bbutlergps wrote:
> >
> > PH-CAQ wrote:
> >> bbutlergps schreef:
> > I have had many questions answered and thank you. The one that I don't
> > have an answer for is the wieght of the Smart ForFour Turbo Diesel
> > Engine, anybody?
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
> >
>
> Bill,
> a couple of months ago I bought a wrecked Mitsubishi Colt
> CZ3 DID (the twin of the Smart Forfour) for its engine. I
> haven't taken it out of the car yet, but since the engine
> block is cast iron, it shouldn't be too light. I'm going to
> use it anyway. With the engine out of the car I'll let you
> know about its definite weight. In my opinion, the Toyota
> and the PSA group light alloy diesels are the way to go.
> Kumaros
> It's all Greek to me

[kumaros]

bbutlergps wrote:
> Kumaros,
> Yes please keep me informed. Does this Colt Clone engine manufactored
> by Mercedes? Also is it 3 or 4 cyl and how many hp does it put out. And
> most important please let me know its weight.
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
Bill,
as mentioned in my previous post, the Mitsubishi Colt CZ3
DID is the twin of the Smart ForFour with a diesel engine.
Besides about 80% of their parts, they share the same
engine, a 1.5 liter three cylinder aluminum head with cast
iron block 95HP at 4000RPM turbodiesel made by Mercedes,
says so right on the cylinder head. As soon as it's out of
the car I'll post exact weight data.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me

[Philippe Vessaire]

kumaros wrote:

> In my opinion, the Toyota
> and the PSA group light alloy diesels are the way to go.

Toyota: timing chain
Peugeot: timing belt

More:
The cast alloy bloc of PSA engine is not "well born". As a former PSA
engineer, I eared about some bloc failures on test bed. The 2l engine
is realy a better bloc but too heavy and powerful for two seater
planes.

I prefer the Toyota engine in the 90-100HP range.


--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[karel]

"Philippe Vessaire" > wrote in message
...
> kumaros wrote:
>
>> In my opinion, the Toyota
>> and the PSA group light alloy diesels are the way to go.
>
> Toyota: timing chain
> Peugeot: timing belt
>
> More:
> The cast alloy bloc of PSA engine is not "well born". As a former PSA
> engineer, I eared about some bloc failures on test bed. The 2l engine
> is realy a better bloc but too heavy and powerful for two seater
> planes.
>
> I prefer the Toyota engine in the 90-100HP range.

Ah. And had you been a former toyota designer,
no doubt you would prefer PSA...?

[Philippe Vessaire]

karel wrote:


>> I prefer the Toyota engine in the 90-100HP range.
>
> Ah. And had you been a former toyota designer,
> no doubt you would prefer PSA...?
No realy, I think the 2l and 2l2 PSA are better than the 2l and 2l2
Toyota but it is in the 140-180HP range.

Each design is different and the 2l is very heavy vs the PSA one.
For the 1l4, it is the opposite.

And for 2007, Subaru will built a 2l5 flat four diesel....

--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Philippe Vessaire]

karel wrote:

> Ah. And had you been a former toyota designer,
> no doubt you would prefer PSA...?

As an ATPL, I was not angry to leave PSA.



--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[bbutlergps]

kumaros wrote:
> bbutlergps wrote:
> > Kumaros,
> > Yes please keep me informed. Does this Colt Clone engine manufactored
> > by Mercedes? Also is it 3 or 4 cyl and how many hp does it put out. And
> > most important please let me know its weight.
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
> >
> Bill,
> as mentioned in my previous post, the Mitsubishi Colt CZ3
> DID is the twin of the Smart ForFour with a diesel engine.
> Besides about 80% of their parts, they share the same
> engine, a 1.5 liter three cylinder aluminum head with cast
> iron block 95HP at 4000RPM turbodiesel made by Mercedes,
> says so right on the cylinder head. As soon as it's out of
> the car I'll post exact weight data.
> Kumaros
> It's all Greek to me


Kumaros,
Thanks so much for pointing me in the direction of the Mercedes Clone.
That diesel engine is thoughout Europe unlike the forfour diesel. I see
that the Brits have the Mitsubishi Colt (Mercede) Diesel engine while
they don't have the Smart ForFour diesel model.
Please let me know what the weight is when you get it pulled.
Thanks again,
Bill

[Philippe Vessaire]

bbutlergps wrote:

> Thanks so much for pointing me in the direction of the Mercedes Clone.
> That diesel engine is thoughout Europe unlike the forfour diesel. I
> see that the Brits have the Mitsubishi Colt (Mercede) Diesel engine
> while they don't have the Smart ForFour diesel model.
> Please let me know what the weight is when you get it pulled.

it is the 3 cylinder base derivated from the 4 cylinder Thielert.

For airplane convertion, you need a stronger PSRU with a 3 cylinder
engine versus 4 ones. I'm not sure you will have a lighter engine
assembly.


--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[kumaros]

Philippe Vessaire wrote:
>
>
> it is the 3 cylinder base derivated from the 4 cylinder Thielert.
>
> For airplane convertion, you need a stronger PSRU with a 3 cylinder
> engine versus 4 ones. I'm not sure you will have a lighter engine
> assembly.
>
>
The Mercedes-Benz A-Class 1.7 liter turbodiesel used as the
core of the Thielert Centurion is all light alloy, the 1.5
liter used in the Smart ForFour and the Mitsubishi Colt has
a light alloy head and a cast iron block.
Kumaros
It's all Greek to me

[bbutlergps]

kumaros wrote:
> Philippe Vessaire wrote:
> >
> >
> > it is the 3 cylinder base derivated from the 4 cylinder Thielert.
> >
> > For airplane convertion, you need a stronger PSRU with a 3 cylinder
> > engine versus 4 ones. I'm not sure you will have a lighter engine
> > assembly.
> >
> >
> The Mercedes-Benz A-Class 1.7 liter turbodiesel used as the
> core of the Thielert Centurion is all light alloy, the 1.5
> liter used in the Smart ForFour and the Mitsubishi Colt has
> a light alloy head and a cast iron block.
> Kumaros
> It's all Greek to me

The Mercedes-Benz A Class 1.7 from Thielert Centurion even being light
alloy weighs in at just under 300 lbs. Too much for the 701. Being that
the smaller mercedes 3 cylinder diesel has been put in some planes
including the 701, 601 FK-9 as well as ultra lights but I feel that
they lack the HP needed. The 95 hp in a 1.5 liter turbo diesel engine
sounds great if it can come in lighter than the 4 cyliner 1.7.
Let me know when you get a rough estimate on that weight?
Thanks,
Bill

[Morgans[_2_]]

"bbutlergps" > wrote

> The Mercedes-Benz A Class 1.7 from Thielert Centurion even being light
> alloy weighs in at just under 300 lbs. Too much for the 701. Being that
> the smaller mercedes 3 cylinder diesel has been put in some planes
> including the 701, 601 FK-9 as well as ultra lights but I feel that
> they lack the HP needed.

Keep in mind that the diesel engines in airplanes tend to give the same
performance as a gas engine of up to 25% more HP. Would that make a difference
in the HP figures, in your case?
--
Jim in NC

[bbutlergps]

Morgans wrote:
> "bbutlergps" > wrote
>
> > The Mercedes-Benz A Class 1.7 from Thielert Centurion even being light
> > alloy weighs in at just under 300 lbs. Too much for the 701. Being that
> > the smaller mercedes 3 cylinder diesel has been put in some planes
> > including the 701, 601 FK-9 as well as ultra lights but I feel that
> > they lack the HP needed.
>
> Keep in mind that the diesel engines in airplanes tend to give the same
> performance as a gas engine of up to 25% more HP. Would that make a difference
> in the HP figures, in your case?
> --
> Jim in NC

Still haven't gotten any information on the Smart Mercedes 3 cyl. 95 hp
diesel found in the Smart ForFour of the Mitisibishi Colt such as
weight. I did however come across VW Lupo engine. This 1.2 engine is
found in Audi A2 and VW Lupo. It is all aluminum.
Diesel engines

Three cylinder

3L 1.2 TDI

This inline three cylinder is notorious for being the powerplant of the
Lupo 3L and A2 3L, both VAG cars with a low consumption of only three
liters per hundred kilometers (94 mpg/78 US mpg). It is based on the
1.4 TDI version but the block is made of aluminium and the elements are
lighter.

Configuration
Diesel 1191 cc inline three cylinder
Block
bore × stroke 76.5 × 86.4 mm, aluminum
Head
aluminum, 2 valves, overhead camshaft, 19.5 compression ratio
Aspiration
turbocharger
Fuel
Pump direct injection (PD Pump injector, Pumpe-Düse)
Dimensions
100 kg
Output
45 kW (61 hp) @ 4000 rpm, 140 N·m between 1800 and 2400 rpm, 80%
available from 1300 rpm
Applications
Audi A2, VW Lupo 3L
references
Audi AG (1999-11-28). Audi A2 1.2 TDI: The three-litre car from
Audi. Press release.

This engine can be chipped up to 75 hp.

I know, don't believe the chip turners, figure in cooling, PSRU, etc
weight while and there is other powerplants out there.
But I am in for discussion of LSA diesel power aircraft that the power
plant doesn't cost more than the aircraft.
Thanks,
Bill

[Peter Dohm]

"bbutlergps" > wrote in message
ps.com...

Morgans wrote:
> "bbutlergps" > wrote
>
> > The Mercedes-Benz A Class 1.7 from Thielert Centurion even being light
> > alloy weighs in at just under 300 lbs. Too much for the 701. Being that
> > the smaller mercedes 3 cylinder diesel has been put in some planes
> > including the 701, 601 FK-9 as well as ultra lights but I feel that
> > they lack the HP needed.
>
> Keep in mind that the diesel engines in airplanes tend to give the same
> performance as a gas engine of up to 25% more HP. Would that make a
difference
> in the HP figures, in your case?
> --
> Jim in NC

Still haven't gotten any information on the Smart Mercedes 3 cyl. 95 hp
diesel found in the Smart ForFour of the Mitisibishi Colt such as
weight. I did however come across VW Lupo engine. This 1.2 engine is
found in Audi A2 and VW Lupo. It is all aluminum.
Diesel engines

Three cylinder

3L 1.2 TDI

This inline three cylinder is notorious for being the powerplant of the
Lupo 3L and A2 3L, both VAG cars with a low consumption of only three
liters per hundred kilometers (94 mpg/78 US mpg). It is based on the
1.4 TDI version but the block is made of aluminium and the elements are
lighter.

Configuration
Diesel 1191 cc inline three cylinder
Block
bore × stroke 76.5 × 86.4 mm, aluminum
Head
aluminum, 2 valves, overhead camshaft, 19.5 compression ratio
Aspiration
turbocharger
Fuel
Pump direct injection (PD Pump injector, Pumpe-Düse)
Dimensions
100 kg
Output
45 kW (61 hp) @ 4000 rpm, 140 N·m between 1800 and 2400 rpm, 80%
available from 1300 rpm
Applications
Audi A2, VW Lupo 3L
references
Audi AG (1999-11-28). Audi A2 1.2 TDI: The three-litre car from
Audi. Press release.

This engine can be chipped up to 75 hp.

I know, don't believe the chip turners, figure in cooling, PSRU, etc
weight while and there is other powerplants out there.
But I am in for discussion of LSA diesel power aircraft that the power
plant doesn't cost more than the aircraft.
Thanks,
Bill

My own concern with reprogrammed chips is not so much whether the results
are credible, although that is certainly an issue, but the possible effect
on reliability.

I would expect engine manufacturers program their engine controls based a
compromise between the performance they can demonstrate and the costs of
reliability problems and attendant warranty costs. Therefore, I am less
than enthusiastic about the idea of "souping up" an engine for use in an
aircraft--especially single engine.

Peter
I've been wrong before...

[karel]

"Philippe Vessaire" > wrote in message
...

> And for 2007, Subaru will built a 2l5 flat four diesel....

That sounds very interesting!
Any pointers /web links?
Indications of cooling (liquid/air) ?
Turbo? (I should think yes)

TIA (et mes meilleurs voeux!)
KA

[bbutlergps]

wrote:
> I would be interestedin a diesel in the 200hp range. Is anyone out
> there converting any 200hp doesel automotive engines?

You would have to have a pretty good sized aircraft to carry that
weight.
Mercedes engines have been putting into aircraft such as the 172 or
larger single engine aircraft. More information could be found at:
http://www.thielert.com/
This engine here is an Isuzu smaller but interesting
http://membres.lycos.fr/dieselis/
This is a newsletter
http://dieselair.com/

Still looking for that diesel power plant for LSA that affordable,
lightweight, has the hp and torque and turns the engine at normal
operating speed.
Right now I am looking at the VW Lupo / Audi A2 1.2 all aluminum 60 hp
3 cylinder turbo diesel.
Still wondering about the Smart Mercedes 95 hp 3 cylinder turbo diesel
found in the Smart ForFour and Mitubishi Colt. That engine has more
than enought HP that I am looking for but scared of the total wieght?
I still have a couple of other automotive diesel to look at including
the Toyota and Dihotsu (sp).
EcoFly has a very nice slick set up using the Smart ForTwo gas and
diesel engine in the FK-9. These engines at least the diesel I feel
lack the hp. Thats why I am wanting the ForFour 95 hp engine to come in
not weighing too much. I really like EcoFly PSRU, espically the clutch
that engages at a certain RPM. This really cuts down on vibration at
start up, idle and shut down. More information on EcoFly can be found
at:
http://www.ecofly.de/
Hope this helps and I hope that somebody helps me, how about you guys
in Europe =:-].
Thanks,
Bill

[Philippe Vessaire]

karel wrote:

>> And for 2007, Subaru will built a 2l5 flat four diesel....

> That sounds very interesting!
> Any pointers /web links?
> Indications of cooling (liquid/air) ?
liquid
> Turbo? (I should think yes)
yes


> TIA (et mes meilleurs voeux!)
je mitoute... (me too)

A+
--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[karel]

"karel" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Philippe Vessaire" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> And for 2007, Subaru will built a 2l5 flat four diesel....
>
> That sounds very interesting!
> Any pointers /web links?
> Indications of cooling (liquid/air) ?
> Turbo? (I should think yes)

Voici ce que me revelait une petite recherche:

( copied from http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8fe18 ,
hope this is ok copyrightwise ) :

<copy>
Subaru is working on a boxer diesel for the European market for 2007. The
engine reportedly will be offered in the Legacy, and probably will be
offered in the Forester too.
Rumors have it as a 2.2L engine, and most likely also turbocharged. I would
also expect to see Subaru using an ally block and head, like many modern car
diesels. My guess is that Subaru also has a larger version for the
Euro-Tribeca. if you add a pair of cylinders to the 2.2 H-4, you end up with
a 3.3 H-6, which would be perfect for the larger Tribeca.
</copy>

Those who master the Teuton language may consult
http://www.kfzbetrieb.de/news/kb_beitrag_1806484.html
which has even less factual info, and is almost 2 years old.

[bbutlergps]

karel wrote:
> "karel" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Philippe Vessaire" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >> And for 2007, Subaru will built a 2l5 flat four diesel....
> >
> > That sounds very interesting!
> > Any pointers /web links?
> > Indications of cooling (liquid/air) ?
> > Turbo? (I should think yes)
>
> Voici ce que me revelait une petite recherche:
>
> ( copied from http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8fe18 ,
> hope this is ok copyrightwise ) :
>
> <copy>
> Subaru is working on a boxer diesel for the European market for 2007. The
> engine reportedly will be offered in the Legacy, and probably will be
> offered in the Forester too.
> Rumors have it as a 2.2L engine, and most likely also turbocharged. I would
> also expect to see Subaru using an ally block and head, like many modern car
> diesels. My guess is that Subaru also has a larger version for the
> Euro-Tribeca. if you add a pair of cylinders to the 2.2 H-4, you end up with
> a 3.3 H-6, which would be perfect for the larger Tribeca.
> </copy>
>
> Those who master the Teuton language may consult
> http://www.kfzbetrieb.de/news/kb_beitrag_1806484.html
> which has even less factual info, and is almost 2 years old.

Also keep in mind that Honda has been putting out an all allunium about
that size in Europe for the last several years.
Bill

[Montblack]

("bbutlergps" wrote)
>> Those who master the Teuton language may consult
>> http://www.kfzbetrieb.de/news/kb_beitrag_1806484.html
>> which has even less factual info, and is almost 2 years old.
>
> Also keep in mind that Honda has been putting out an all allunium about
> that size in Europe for the last several years.


H-h-h-h-h-onda diesel? Details, if you have them, PLEASE...

<http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/honda-fr-v-2.2-i-ctdi-diesel-1004491.html>
2.2-Liter i-CTDi
139bhp
340Nm (torque)


<http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/honda-civic-ctd-i-diesel-range-1003265.html>
1.7-Liter CTDi (Isuzu/Honda)
100bhp
220Nm (torque)
1800rpm ...peak torque developed @


Montblack

[bbutlergps]

Montblack wrote:
> ("bbutlergps" wrote)
> >> Those who master the Teuton language may consult
> >> http://www.kfzbetrieb.de/news/kb_beitrag_1806484.html
> >> which has even less factual info, and is almost 2 years old.
> >
> > Also keep in mind that Honda has been putting out an all allunium about
> > that size in Europe for the last several years.
>
>
> H-h-h-h-h-onda diesel? Details, if you have them, PLEASE...
>
> <http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/honda-fr-v-2.2-i-ctdi-diesel-1004491.html>
> 2.2-Liter i-CTDi
> 139bhp
> 340Nm (torque)
>
>
> <http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/honda-civic-ctd-i-diesel-range-1003265.html>
> 1.7-Liter CTDi (Isuzu/Honda)
> 100bhp
> 220Nm (torque)
> 1800rpm ...peak torque developed @
>
>
> Montblack
That is about it. The 1.7 is made by Isuzu is all allumiumn. I don't
have any weights. Perhaps somebody in the UK or Europe could give us
some more information on lightwieght automotive diesel?
Since we are such stick in the mud *******s here in the states.
Thanks,
Bill

[bbutlergps]

Montblack wrote:
> ("bbutlergps" wrote)
> >> Those who master the Teuton language may consult
> >> http://www.kfzbetrieb.de/news/kb_beitrag_1806484.html
> >> which has even less factual info, and is almost 2 years old.
> >
> > Also keep in mind that Honda has been putting out an all allunium about
> > that size in Europe for the last several years.
>
>
> H-h-h-h-h-onda diesel? Details, if you have them, PLEASE...
>
> <http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/honda-fr-v-2.2-i-ctdi-diesel-1004491.html>
> 2.2-Liter i-CTDi
> 139bhp
> 340Nm (torque)
>
>
> <http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/honda-civic-ctd-i-diesel-range-1003265.html>
> 1.7-Liter CTDi (Isuzu/Honda)
> 100bhp
> 220Nm (torque)
> 1800rpm ...peak torque developed @
>
>
> Montblack

I will also add that the 2.2 that is in the Civic is all aluminium as
well. I don't think Honda is putting in the 1.7 liter anymore.
The Isuzu engine was put into this airplane but it was the 1.5 liter
with a cast iron block. The power plant with PSRU, cooling and other
item brought it up to 300 lbs.
More information on this plane can be found at:
http://membres.lycos.fr/dieselis/sommaire.htm
Bill

[Philippe Vessaire]

bbutlergps wrote:



> Also keep in mind that Honda has been putting out an all allunium
> about that size in Europe for the last several years.
But Diesel engines are always heavy.
We may expect flat 4 are lighter than L4 for same power..

--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Philippe Vessaire]

bbutlergps wrote:


>> 2.2-Liter i-CTDi
Aluminium alloy bloc

>> 1.7-Liter CTDi (Isuzu/Honda)
Cast iron block

> That is about it. The 1.7 is made by Isuzu is all allumiumn. I don't
> have any weights. Perhaps somebody in the UK or Europe could give us
> some more information on lightwieght automotive diesel?

To day, you can't expect less than 110 kg for a running 100Hp diesel
engine conversion (Toyota or PSA bloc)
The Isuzu engine is heavier.
You may find this engine in Opel/Vauxall cars too.

By
--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬