Crosswind landing control..

[Dan[_1_]]

All,

When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
seems to have helped my control on rollout.

Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
"wheelbarrowing" occur?

--Dan

[[email protected]]

Use the rudder not the wheel... it would be very bad practice to put
pressure on the nose-wheel. Your concern is slowing the plane down to
get it to a speed where the nose wheel will be effective, for that you
need back pressure and brakes, which is why the mains need to be firmly
on the ground to give them the best grip.
Dan wrote:
> All,
>
> When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> seems to have helped my control on rollout.
>
> Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
> a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
> "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> --Dan

[BT]

I would not apply forward pressure to the stick. I would apply heavier than
normal braking to get more weight on the wheels, and apply back pressure at
the same time so the decelleration does not throw more weight onto the nose
tire/strut. Heavier than normal braking tends to flat spot tires if the
weight is not fully on the mains.

Wheel barrowing is a common occurance on landing when a pilot forces the
airplane to land before it is ready.
Common evidence of wheel barrowing in Cessna's is damage to the lower fire
wall, sometimes to the point that day light is seen through the seperation.

BT

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> All,
>
> When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> seems to have helped my control on rollout.
>
> Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
> a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
> "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> --Dan
>

[A Lieberma]

"Dan" > wrote in news:1165200901.919197.150950@
16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:

> Under what circumstances would
> "wheelbarrowing" occur?

Anytime the plane is rolling too fast, the potential for wheelbarrowing can
happen whether it be landing or take off.

For me, I do the opposite in my Beechsundowner.

After landing, after all three wheels are firmly on terra firma, WHENEVER
POSSIBLE, I hold the yoke full aft until the plane slows down enough that
the stabilator has no effect on keeping the pressure off the nosewheel
(similar to a softfield landing technique).

I want the weight to remain on the mains as long as I can so I can prevent
the chance of nosewheel shimmy as well as wheelbarrowing down the runway.

Allen

[N2310D]

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> All,
>
> When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> seems to have helped my control on rollout.

To paraphrase my instructor: The only thing the nose wheel should be used
for, is to keep the prop from striking the ground.

[Dudley Henriques]

Applying forward pressure during the rollout is a bad idea. It can cause a
slew (no pun intended :-) of problems. Just concentrate on maintaining
directional control with rudder and let the nosewheel settle in naturally
at touchdown .
If needed, you should be holding some aileron in for wind correction during
this process. Retracting the flaps and holding in some back pressure will
help firm your mains.
I'm a great believer of not using forward pressure during touchdown and
rollout on landings in trikes. Shouldn't be necessary and it's dangerous.
Hold back pressure on the rollout. That will increase the pressure on the
mains and desensitize the nose wheel. On most trikes its important that the
nose wheel be straight at touchdown. Correct for drift with aileron and
maintain directional control with opposite rudder. The magnitude of the
pressure required to do this properly will also vary during the approach.
Just keep the speed a bit higher than normal for the crosswind and fly the
airplane. If you do everything right, the nose wheel will take care of
itself and be positioned correctly at touchdown.
Think of it this way; if your rudder work is good, and your alignment is set
up and executed correctly, and your aileron work is good and compensating
correctly for the drift, the nosewheel should be just fine. :-)
Dudley Henriques

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> All,
>
> When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> seems to have helped my control on rollout.
>
> Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
> a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
> "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> --Dan
>

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

There should never be any forward pressure on the yoke/stick during
landing. The yoke is always held back, never pushed forward. Perhaps
you mean reducing the back pressure. In that case, yes, it would be
proper to relax the back pressure somewhat quicker during a crosswind
landing to quickly transfer the weight from the wings to the wheels.
Howvever this technique is not really necessary except in the worst
crosswind (ie when it exceeds rudder authority).


Dan wrote:
> All,
>
> When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> seems to have helped my control on rollout.
>
> Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
> a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
> "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> --Dan

[BT]

AL, with the manual flaps, drop the flap handle to the floor..
remember.. those beeches say "do not use maximum braking with full flaps"
I've seen more than one beech skip down the runway flat spotting the tires

BT

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> "Dan" > wrote in news:1165200901.919197.150950@
> 16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Under what circumstances would
>> "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> Anytime the plane is rolling too fast, the potential for wheelbarrowing
> can
> happen whether it be landing or take off.
>
> For me, I do the opposite in my Beechsundowner.
>
> After landing, after all three wheels are firmly on terra firma, WHENEVER
> POSSIBLE, I hold the yoke full aft until the plane slows down enough that
> the stabilator has no effect on keeping the pressure off the nosewheel
> (similar to a softfield landing technique).
>
> I want the weight to remain on the mains as long as I can so I can prevent
> the chance of nosewheel shimmy as well as wheelbarrowing down the runway.
>
> Allen

[Tony]

I think someone else had suggested this, but it bears repeating. If the
flap control and the gear control are far apart, when you touch down
verify your fingers are on the flaps, then verify it again, then return
them to 'up'.

I'd be more confortable recommending this if you could take the landing
gear control off the panel and put it in your pocket after you selected
gear down at the OM, but. . .

In the Mooney in a cross wind I was happy sucking the flaps up when
starting the flare, but even after many hours, and the gear control
shaped like a wheel and the flap control shaped like a little flap, I
want to see my fingers on the flap control before retracting them!
Arrows have some airspeed device that commands gear down when you're
going slow, Mooneys do not.

Also in serious crosswinds touchdown speed was faster than I liked
because the Mooney really didn't have a lot of rudder authority -- I'd
have one side kicked all of the way in and still not be able to keep
the airplane pointing down the centerline.

One final thing, and do this only if you're really comfortable with the
airplane and know where it's going to touch down. In a strong
crosswind, land near the downwind side of the runway with the airplane
pointing toward the upwind side. On wide runways, the 70 feet of room
you have across the runway means you can gain 5 or 6 degrees less
crosswind (Changing runway 10 into runway 10.5 or so), and you're
changing some of the crosswind into a headwind.



On Dec 3, 10:45 pm, "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote:
> There should never be any forward pressure on the yoke/stick during
> landing. The yoke is always held back, never pushed forward. Perhaps
> you mean reducing the back pressure. In that case, yes, it would be
> proper to relax the back pressure somewhat quicker during a crosswind
> landing to quickly transfer the weight from the wings to the wheels.
> Howvever this technique is not really necessary except in the worst
> crosswind (ie when it exceeds rudder authority).
>
>
>
> Dan wrote:
> > All,
>
> > When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> > have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> > procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> > the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> > seems to have helped my control on rollout.
>
> > Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
> > a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
> > "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> > --Dan- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

[A Lieberma]

"BT" > wrote in
:

> AL, with the manual flaps, drop the flap handle to the floor..
> remember.. those beeches say "do not use maximum braking with full
> flaps" I've seen more than one beech skip down the runway flat
> spotting the tires
>
> BT

Absolutely right BT!!!

First thing I do is raise the flaps as soon as all three wheels are on
terra firma.

It only took me once to "forget" on one of my earlier flights with this
plane and talk about skipping / skidding / slipping down the runway.

I was real lucky considering it was a wet runway at that, so it really was
the grace of God, I wasn't an "incident".

Haven't done it since (touch the brakes before flaps up), thats for sure
:-).

You can also bet I learn from my mistakes.

Allen

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 19:54:32 -0800, "BT" > wrote:

>AL, with the manual flaps, drop the flap handle to the floor..
>remember.. those beeches say "do not use maximum braking with full flaps"
>I've seen more than one beech skip down the runway flat spotting the tires

Be careful with the term "Beech". A short filed landing with a Bo is,
plant the mains on, let the nose down, get on the brakes and *haul*
back on the yoke. That actually puts pressure on the mains. The
flaps stay at full. For one reason they are slow enough that they
will spend more time in the added lift region right when you don't
want it when coming up. If I hit the up switch when I have it planted
on, I'll be to a stop about the same time the flaps reach full up. BTW
A non transitioning pilot is unlikely to hit the wrong switch.
Switching to a plane with the switches reversed would worry me.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:33:20 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

Hi Dudley,

Couple of points:

>Applying forward pressure during the rollout is a bad idea. It can cause a
>slew (no pun intended :-) of problems. Just concentrate on maintaining
>directional control with rudder and let the nosewheel settle in naturally
>at touchdown .

The whole Beech family is very good at imitating wheel barrows. <:-))
If they aint ready to land they'll end up running down the runway on
the nose gear. The same thing is true of taking off. If it's ready to
fly you can't hold it on without imitating a wheelbarrow unless
everything including trim is neutral. They can be a real bear tying to
do touch and goes.

>If needed, you should be holding some aileron in for wind correction during
>this process. Retracting the flaps and holding in some back pressure will
>help firm your mains.

With his mechanical flaps that works very well. With my electric flaps
it doesn't. I end up reducing drag and increasing lift which will
actually increase my roll out a bit. (I can be stopped by the time
they are full up)

>I'm a great believer of not using forward pressure during touchdown and
>rollout on landings in trikes. Shouldn't be necessary and it's dangerous.
>Hold back pressure on the rollout. That will increase the pressure on the
>mains and desensitize the nose wheel. On most trikes its important that the

Nose wheels are expensive and for steering during taxi. Mains are
strong for landing.

>nose wheel be straight at touchdown. Correct for drift with aileron and
>maintain directional control with opposite rudder. The magnitude of the
>pressure required to do this properly will also vary during the approach.
>Just keep the speed a bit higher than normal for the crosswind and fly the
>airplane. If you do everything right, the nose wheel will take care of
>itself and be positioned correctly at touchdown.
>Think of it this way; if your rudder work is good, and your alignment is set
>up and executed correctly, and your aileron work is good and compensating
>correctly for the drift, the nosewheel should be just fine. :-)
>Dudley Henriques
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On 3 Dec 2006 19:45:19 -0800, "Andrew Sarangan" >
wrote:

>There should never be any forward pressure on the yoke/stick during
>landing. The yoke is always held back, never pushed forward. Perhaps
>you mean reducing the back pressure. In that case, yes, it would be
>proper to relax the back pressure somewhat quicker during a crosswind
>landing to quickly transfer the weight from the wings to the wheels.
>Howvever this technique is not really necessary except in the worst
>crosswind (ie when it exceeds rudder authority).

In most Beech singles that rudder has more authority than the nose
gear unless going really slow.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Dan[_1_]]

So, this damage is a result of slamming the nosewheel down, or applying
forward pressure after the wheels are firmly on the ground?

It would seem that forward pressure on the stick would not actually
_push_ the nosewheel down, but simply allow the weight of the engine to
settle onto the nosewheel sooner.. Does pushing actually apply more
downward force on the nosewheel than when the plane is sitting on the
ramp?

I think that getting the flaps up immediately will help my technique
also. (PA28s w/ manual flaps.)

--Dan




> Wheel barrowing is a common occurance on landing when a pilot forces the
> airplane to land before it is ready.
> Common evidence of wheel barrowing in Cessna's is damage to the lower fire
> wall, sometimes to the point that day light is seen through the seperation.
>
> BT
>
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > All,
> >
> > When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> > have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> > procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> > the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> > seems to have helped my control on rollout.
> >
> > Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
> > a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
> > "wheelbarrowing" occur?
> >
> > --Dan
> >

[Dan[_1_]]

OK, so by bringing the yoke/stick full aft, aren't you increasing the
angle of attack, generating more lift and _removing_ wieght from the
mains? (Sure, the aerodynamic braking does help).

This was discussed in a thread here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/browse_frm/thread/431bbacd8005c3a8/

but it seems to be something that everyone has an opinion on....

--Dan


A Lieberma wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in news:1165200901.919197.150950@
> 16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Under what circumstances would
> > "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> Anytime the plane is rolling too fast, the potential for wheelbarrowing can
> happen whether it be landing or take off.
>
> For me, I do the opposite in my Beechsundowner.
>
> After landing, after all three wheels are firmly on terra firma, WHENEVER
> POSSIBLE, I hold the yoke full aft until the plane slows down enough that
> the stabilator has no effect on keeping the pressure off the nosewheel
> (similar to a softfield landing technique).
>
> I want the weight to remain on the mains as long as I can so I can prevent
> the chance of nosewheel shimmy as well as wheelbarrowing down the runway.
>
> Allen

[Dan[_1_]]

My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.

If it can't produce upward force, then the rear of the plane could be
made no lighter than when it is standing still, therefore it could
transfer no _additional_ weight to the nosewheel no matter what the
control inputs. Where is this logic flawed (seriously, I want to
understand if this is wrong...)


--Dan


Crash Lander wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > So, this damage is a result of slamming the nosewheel down, or applying
> > forward pressure after the wheels are firmly on the ground?
> >
> > It would seem that forward pressure on the stick would not actually
> > _push_ the nosewheel down, but simply allow the weight of the engine to
> > settle onto the nosewheel sooner.. Does pushing actually apply more
> > downward force on the nosewheel than when the plane is sitting on the
> > ramp?
>
> No, it doesn't, but when travelling at speed down the runway, pushing the
> stick forward increases the angle of attack of the tail plane, (obviously),
> and in effect, transfers more weight to the front of the a/c by making the
> rear lighter. (I think I'm explaining this right!)
> Oz Lander

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> So, this damage is a result of slamming the nosewheel down, or applying
> forward pressure after the wheels are firmly on the ground?
>
> It would seem that forward pressure on the stick would not actually
> _push_ the nosewheel down, but simply allow the weight of the engine to
> settle onto the nosewheel sooner.. Does pushing actually apply more
> downward force on the nosewheel than when the plane is sitting on the
> ramp?

No, it doesn't, but when travelling at speed down the runway, pushing the
stick forward increases the angle of attack of the tail plane, (obviously),
and in effect, transfers more weight to the front of the a/c by making the
rear lighter. (I think I'm explaining this right!)
Oz Lander

[Dudley Henriques]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:33:20 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:

> With his mechanical flaps that works very well. With my electric flaps
> it doesn't. I end up reducing drag and increasing lift which will
> actually increase my roll out a bit. (I can be stopped by the time
> they are full up)

We had an old V Tail Bo on the line around the Jurassic Period that we used
for charter once in a while.
After touchdown, she was pretty well planted unless you brought it in a bit
fast. Very stable on landing; in fact, I always liked the way the Bo handled
on landings. Solid as a rock!
My procedure with the Bo was to NOT touch the flaps during the rollout until
the airplane had left the runway, then I'd LOOK at the switch, TOUCH the
switch, REPEAT verbally to myself, "Flaps UP!", THEN I'd raise the flaps.
:-))
Dudley

[[email protected]]

No... this is the point at which there is more gravity acting on the
plane than lift... the wing cannot lift the plane off the gorund.
Putting more pressure on the mains will let you brake quicker.

On Dec 3, 7:34 pm, "Dan" > wrote:
> OK, so by bringing the yoke/stick full aft, aren't you increasing the
> angle of attack, generating more lift and _removing_ wieght from the
> mains? (Sure, the aerodynamic braking does help).
>
> This was discussed in a thread here:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/browse_frm/threa...
>
> but it seems to be something that everyone has an opinion on....
>
> --Dan
>
>
>
> A Lieberma wrote:
> > "Dan" > wrote in news:1165200901.919197.150950@
> > 16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > Under what circumstances would
> > > "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> > Anytime the plane is rolling too fast, the potential for wheelbarrowing can
> > happen whether it be landing or take off.
>
> > For me, I do the opposite in my Beechsundowner.
>
> > After landing, after all three wheels are firmly on terra firma, WHENEVER
> > POSSIBLE, I hold the yoke full aft until the plane slows down enough that
> > the stabilator has no effect on keeping the pressure off the nosewheel
> > (similar to a softfield landing technique).
>
> > I want the weight to remain on the mains as long as I can so I can prevent
> > the chance of nosewheel shimmy as well as wheelbarrowing down the runway.
>
> > Allen- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

[Roger[_4_]]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 00:58:48 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:33:20 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
>> > wrote:
>
>> With his mechanical flaps that works very well. With my electric flaps
>> it doesn't. I end up reducing drag and increasing lift which will
>> actually increase my roll out a bit. (I can be stopped by the time
>> they are full up)
>
>We had an old V Tail Bo on the line around the Jurassic Period that we used
>for charter once in a while.

Your's was that new?

>After touchdown, she was pretty well planted unless you brought it in a bit
>fast.

Even then those big flaps slow them down in a hurry.
What surprises most people is the light wing loading. About the same
as a Cherokee 180 and about 2# lighter than a Mooney although that
figure varies a lot depending on model and year.

> Very stable on landing; in fact, I always liked the way the Bo handled
>on landings. Solid as a rock!
>My procedure with the Bo was to NOT touch the flaps during the rollout until
>the airplane had left the runway, then I'd LOOK at the switch, TOUCH the
>switch, REPEAT verbally to myself, "Flaps UP!", THEN I'd raise the flaps.

Ah, yes. Look at it, point at it, Identify it, say it, and THEN do it.
OTOH I'm that way on any retract as all of them except the Bo are
backwards. <:-))

Actually, once you get used to the interconnected rudder (ruddervators
on V-tails) and ailerons they are one of the easiest planes to land
out there.


>:-))
>Dudley
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Roger wrote:
>
> In most Beech singles that rudder has more authority than the nose
> gear unless going really slow.

As a pilot who learned to taxi without brakes on Pipers and Cessnas, I
almost ran the first Beech single I taxied right into the weeds.

A classic case of needing to operate the plane you're in, not the others
you've flown in the past. All airplanes have quirks and idiosyncrasies.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Roger wrote:
>
> Be careful with the term "Beech". A short filed landing with a Bo is,
> plant the mains on, let the nose down, get on the brakes and *haul*
> back on the yoke. That actually puts pressure on the mains. The
> flaps stay at full.

I was taught to do the same with a Sundowner. It works great!

If I land on airspeed, the yoke is nearly full back as I roll out nose
up, on the mains. Holding it there keeps the plane nicely planted,
keeps the nose gear light, and quickly bleeds speed. In gusty
conditions, the nose may pop back up, but it won't fly.

For the ultra-shortest no-brainer stop, I'll keep the yoke back and drop
th flap handle.

The tuition I paid to learn these techniques was a set of tires. <G>

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Roger wrote:
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)

Roger, In what general area are you based?

There's a polished Debonair / Bo at MGJ (Orange County, NY), that's got
to be the runner-up to yours.

[A Lieberma]

"Dan" > wrote in
oups.com:

> OK, so by bringing the yoke/stick full aft, aren't you increasing the
> angle of attack, generating more lift and _removing_ wieght from the
> mains? (Sure, the aerodynamic braking does help).

Not below the white arc :-)

99 percent of my landings is with the stall horn going strong, so by the
time my wheels touch ground, the plane has truly stopped flying.

With me retracting the flaps immediately after landing, I have reduced a
significant amount of lift factor, thus the practicality of having the yoke
full aft.

I can feel a huge difference in stability of control after the flaps have
been retracted.

Allen

[Todd W. Deckard]

Some tricyle gear airplanes use a free castoring nose-wheel (the Grumman
Yankee, and I believe the Cirrus).
The only one I have a little experience with is the Yankee and it would
reinforce your statement precisely.

In addition the Grumman folks could argue that it was preferable to the
bungee interconnect becuase they can apply
large rudder throws without tugging on the nosewheel which naturally castors
to the correct alignment. Its another
way of demonstrating the use of up-elevator to keep the nosewheel light on
the landing roll.

Regards
Todd

> Think of it this way; if your rudder work is good, and your alignment is
> set up and executed correctly, and your aileron work is good and
> compensating correctly for the drift, the nosewheel should be just fine.
> :-)
> Dudley Henriques
>

[Newps]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> My procedure with the Bo was to NOT touch the flaps during the rollout until
> the airplane had left the runway, then I'd LOOK at the switch, TOUCH the
> switch, REPEAT verbally to myself, "Flaps UP!", THEN I'd raise the flaps.

The key is to tell yourself..."Stay left of the yoke". As long as you
do that it doesn't matter what you touch.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 00:58:48 -0500, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:

> Actually, once you get used to the interconnected rudder (ruddervators
> on V-tails) ...............................
>>:-))

I learned very quickly that in the front seat we didn't have any problem at
all with the V tail, but I never forgot to carry some extra barf bags for
the folks in the back . It got to where the line boy actually hated that
airplane. After every trip, he'd come running up to me before I got to the
flight office asking something like ,
"PLEASE......PLEASE Dudley, ........ tell me you managed to get into
Idlewild and back without them puking all over the floor mats :-))))"
Dudley

[Newps]

Roger wrote:


>>
>>We had an old V Tail Bo on the line around the Jurassic Period that we used
>>for charter once in a while.
>

>
> Even then those big flaps slow them down in a hurry.

Bonanza flaps are OK. They're no Cessna flaps though.

[Newps]

B A R R Y wrote:

> Roger wrote:
>
>>
>> Be careful with the term "Beech". A short filed landing with a Bo is,
>> plant the mains on, let the nose down, get on the brakes and *haul*
>> back on the yoke. That actually puts pressure on the mains. The
>> flaps stay at full.
>
>
> I was taught to do the same with a Sundowner. It works great!
>
> If I land on airspeed, the yoke is nearly full back as I roll out nose
> up, on the mains.


If you can roll out with the nose wheel in the air you're going way too
damn fast in the first place. A short field landing is bang bang.
Mains then nosewheel.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
>> My procedure with the Bo was to NOT touch the flaps during the rollout
>> until the airplane had left the runway, then I'd LOOK at the switch,
>> TOUCH the switch, REPEAT verbally to myself, "Flaps UP!", THEN I'd raise
>> the flaps.
>
> The key is to tell yourself..."Stay left of the yoke". As long as you do
> that it doesn't matter what you touch.

I would respectfully disagree

The look , touch , audible verification, then use, procedure is a developed
personal habit pattern safety check .
It's purpose is to form a flight safety habit pattern trigger that is
transferable between types as pilots move into and out of flying various
aircraft regardless of cockpit layout.
Naturally, type specific cockpit routine is important and should be
followed. The purpose of a highly developed personal habit pattern is to
integrate seamlessly into different cockpit layouts and remain a viable
positive safety factor carried throughout a pilot's career.
"Staying left of the yoke" might be fine for one aircraft, but get you a
REAL slow grinding ride back to the ramp in the next one you fly" :-))
Dudley Henriques

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> If you can roll out with the nose wheel in the air you're going way too
> damn fast in the first place. A short field landing is bang bang. Mains
> then nosewheel.

So true.

I was describing a more normal landing. My mistake.

[Tony Cox]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm a great believer of not using forward pressure during touchdown and
> rollout on landings in trikes. Shouldn't be necessary and it's dangerous.
> Hold back pressure on the rollout. That will increase the pressure on the
> mains and desensitize the nose wheel. On most trikes its important that the
> nose wheel be straight at touchdown. Correct for drift with aileron and
> maintain directional control with opposite rudder. The magnitude of the
> pressure required to do this properly will also vary during the approach.
> Just keep the speed a bit higher than normal for the crosswind and fly the
> airplane. If you do everything right, the nose wheel will take care of
> itself and be positioned correctly at touchdown.

I think this is easier said than done. Opposite rudder on my
plane means the nosewheel is pointing "away" from the
crosswind at a slight angle from the "straight ahead" position,
and I've noticed I seem to lurch off the center line a bit in that
direction when the wheel hits. Taking out the rudder correction
early and one "weathervanes" into the xwind, of course, so you
land with the nosewheel straight but crabing slightly.

Any tips on getting the timing right?

[Dudley Henriques]

Crosswind landings in GA trikes with coupled nose wheels does require a bit
of "finesse" at touchdown.
This is normal behavior however, and shouldn't be a real issue if the
touchdown is normal otherwise.
The "trick" is to have the airplane correctly set up for touchdown AT
touchdown. This means correctly set up for main wheel contact with the nose
wheel off the runway. As the windward main makes contact with the runway,
just allow the aileron to slack off a bit and center the rudder as the other
main settles in. If you are lined up directionally, this should be
accomplished in one smooth fluid motion and cause no particular problems at
touchdown.
It's interesting as you consider how crosswind landings are accomplished in
extremely high performance airplanes like the F16 or the T38, where you
actually hold in the crab right through touchdown. I've thought about this
more than once as I've planted this type of airplane on the runway in a
stiff crosswind. The mains are designed for it though, and the impetus of
the landing straightens out the aircraft with no problem. As in your light
GA airplane, you don't want to plant that nose gear with any positive
action.....aerodynamic braking considered, you just let the nose wheel come
on through and down to the runway normally with the rudder neutralized as
this is accomplished.
You are absolutely right that timing is essential. Actually, if you think
about it, timing is an essential element in ANY landing, so the secret
remains as always; plan the approach; set up the approach; and land the
airplane from your correctly set up approach and all should be well.
Dudley Henriques


"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I'm a great believer of not using forward pressure during touchdown and
>> rollout on landings in trikes. Shouldn't be necessary and it's dangerous.
>> Hold back pressure on the rollout. That will increase the pressure on the
>> mains and desensitize the nose wheel. On most trikes its important that
>> the
>> nose wheel be straight at touchdown. Correct for drift with aileron and
>> maintain directional control with opposite rudder. The magnitude of the
>> pressure required to do this properly will also vary during the approach.
>> Just keep the speed a bit higher than normal for the crosswind and fly
>> the
>> airplane. If you do everything right, the nose wheel will take care of
>> itself and be positioned correctly at touchdown.
>
> I think this is easier said than done. Opposite rudder on my
> plane means the nosewheel is pointing "away" from the
> crosswind at a slight angle from the "straight ahead" position,
> and I've noticed I seem to lurch off the center line a bit in that
> direction when the wheel hits. Taking out the rudder correction
> early and one "weathervanes" into the xwind, of course, so you
> land with the nosewheel straight but crabing slightly.
>
> Any tips on getting the timing right?
>

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Dan" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
> force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
> that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.
>

If the elevator couldn't generate an _upward_ force, then you couldn't pick
up the tail on an taildragger, right? Let me assure you, you can pick up the
tail on a taildragger.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Matt Whiting]

Dan wrote:
> All,
>
> When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> seems to have helped my control on rollout.
>
> Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
> a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
> "wheelbarrowing" occur?
>
> --Dan
>

I was taught to basically use neutral elevator during the roll-out. You
really shouldn't need to add forward pressure to get solid steering.
Wheelbarrowing is a possibility if you apply aggresive nose down
elevator right after landing when you speed is high, but as you slow
down the ability to do this obviously decreases.

What are your symptoms of ineffective nosewheel steering? Are you not
able to hold the airplane on the centerline? Are you rolling in aileron
into the wind as you slow down such that you have full aileron into the
crosswind as you get to taxi speed?

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

BT wrote:

> I would not apply forward pressure to the stick. I would apply heavier than
> normal braking to get more weight on the wheels, and apply back pressure at
> the same time so the decelleration does not throw more weight onto the nose
> tire/strut. Heavier than normal braking tends to flat spot tires if the
> weight is not fully on the mains.
>
> Wheel barrowing is a common occurance on landing when a pilot forces the
> airplane to land before it is ready.
> Common evidence of wheel barrowing in Cessna's is damage to the lower fire
> wall, sometimes to the point that day light is seen through the seperation.

I don't think wheelbarrowing will damage the firewheel. It takes a
landing on the nosewheel to do that. This isn't quite the same as
wheelbarrowing.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

B A R R Y wrote:

> Newps wrote:
>
>>
>>
> > If you can roll out with the nose wheel in the air you're going way too
>
>> damn fast in the first place. A short field landing is bang bang.
>> Mains then nosewheel.
>
>
> So true.
>
> I was describing a more normal landing. My mistake.

My normal landings are short field. :-)

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Newps wrote:

>
>
> Roger wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> We had an old V Tail Bo on the line around the Jurassic Period that
>>> we used for charter once in a while.
>>
>>
>
>>
>> Even then those big flaps slow them down in a hurry.
>
>
> Bonanza flaps are OK. They're no Cessna flaps though.

Same with those on the Arrow. When I hit flaps 40 on my Skylane, it was
obvious that the flaps were down. I can almost forget they are down on
the Arrow.

Matt

[Dan[_1_]]

Taildraggers, yes, absolutely. What about tricycle gear aircraft?

--Dan


Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
> > force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
> > that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.
> >
>
> If the elevator couldn't generate an _upward_ force, then you couldn't pick
> up the tail on an taildragger, right? Let me assure you, you can pick up the
> tail on a taildragger.
>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Taildraggers, yes, absolutely. What about tricycle gear aircraft?
>
> --Dan


I'm not sure I understand the question.

Will the tail generate up? Sure, and elevator is an elevator.

Will the elevator pick the tail up? No because the nose wheel gets in the
way.

On the other hand, if you wack off that silly nose gear, move the mains
forward to where they belong, and add a tailwheel, your C150/2 is now a
Texas Taildragger (probably trademark) and you will be able to pick the tail
up with the elevator.

(all in good fun, eh?)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:52:18 GMT, B A R R Y >
wrote:

>Roger wrote:
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>
>Roger, In what general area are you based?

Midland Michigan's Barstow Airport (3BS) which is about 100 miles NNW
of Detroit. We're 11.3 on the 337 radial of MBS which is just north
of Saginaw.


>
>There's a polished Debonair / Bo at MGJ (Orange County, NY), that's got
>to be the runner-up to yours.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:39:58 GMT, B A R R Y >
wrote:

>Roger wrote:
>>
>> In most Beech singles that rudder has more authority than the nose
>> gear unless going really slow.
>
>As a pilot who learned to taxi without brakes on Pipers and Cessnas, I
>almost ran the first Beech single I taxied right into the weeds.

You shouldn't need to use the brakes on a Bo either, but the nose gear
has a couple of "quirks" that make it difficult to taxi in a straight
line. The strut is canted forward and to the left. (pilot's side).
This gives the nose gear a negative caster as well as being tilted
slightly. The results are the need to constantly "dance" on the
rudder pedals. Right rudder to get the nose gear straight and once it
centers it will keep right on going to the right. Left rudder to
center and of course it'll just keep right on going to the left. It
is not an airplane you can taxi with your feet flat on the floor.
Leave it alone and it'll go any direction except straight. You also
learn to be "quick" when taking your feet off the pedals to move them
up high enough for your toes to be able to touch the brakes as the
thing is going to want to change directions.

However, it is good exercise for you legs.<:-))

>
>A classic case of needing to operate the plane you're in, not the others
>you've flown in the past. All airplanes have quirks and idiosyncrasies.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 07:44:52 -0700, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>Roger wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>>We had an old V Tail Bo on the line around the Jurassic Period that we used
>>>for charter once in a while.
>>
>
>>
>> Even then those big flaps slow them down in a hurry.
>
>Bonanza flaps are OK. They're no Cessna flaps though.
>
Might depend on the model. Some Bonanzas and Debonairs are rated for
shorter landings than a 172. That's saying quite a bit when you are
talking about 3000# and up compaired to the weight of a 172.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jim Macklin]

Wheel barrowing will cause loss of directional control and
the accident will damage the airplane.

Many Cessna airplane are used for student instruction, as
are Piper and Beech, all are often landed on the nose wheel
by student pilots (and other too) and damage is not
uncommon.

Transport category airplanes are often designed with a
negative angle of attack when the nose wheel is on the
ground and they also have ground spoilers. Some GA light
twins, such as the Duke, have a negative lift with the nose
on the ground, but most light aircraft have enough tail area
to lift a major portion of the weight from the main wheels
with full down elevator.

Land, hold the nose off and then reduce back pressure and
lower the nose wheel into contact with the ground. Some
airplanes, such as the Piper singles may need to have the
nose wheel steering straightened before the wheel is allowed
to touch down. Some airplanes disconnect nose wheel
steering until the wheel has weight applied.
Once the nose wheel is firmly on the ground, apply brakes
and smoothly apply aft pressure again until the control is
fully aft.


Be sure to use the ailerons, elevator and brakes to control
the airplane. Some differential power on a twin can be
used, but on a slick runway, be careful. If you have
reverse thrust, be extra careful about directional control.



"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| BT wrote:
|
| > I would not apply forward pressure to the stick. I would
apply heavier than
| > normal braking to get more weight on the wheels, and
apply back pressure at
| > the same time so the decelleration does not throw more
weight onto the nose
| > tire/strut. Heavier than normal braking tends to flat
spot tires if the
| > weight is not fully on the mains.
| >
| > Wheel barrowing is a common occurance on landing when a
pilot forces the
| > airplane to land before it is ready.
| > Common evidence of wheel barrowing in Cessna's is damage
to the lower fire
| > wall, sometimes to the point that day light is seen
through the seperation.
|
| I don't think wheelbarrowing will damage the firewheel.
It takes a
| landing on the nosewheel to do that. This isn't quite the
same as
| wheelbarrowing.
|
|
| Matt

[karl gruber[_1_]]

OK.................I'll bite!

I'm doubting that.....

Karl
"Curator" N185KG



>>
> Might depend on the model. Some Bonanzas and Debonairs are rated for
> shorter landings than a 172. That's saying quite a bit when you are
> talking about 3000# and up compaired to the weight of a 172.
>
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

[Danny Dot]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
news:DeWdnYlvE6ilLOnYnZ2dnUVZ_hydnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
>> force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
>> that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.
>>
>
> If the elevator couldn't generate an _upward_ force, then you couldn't
> pick up the tail on an taildragger, right? Let me assure you, you can pick
> up the tail on a taildragger.
>

I agree 100% that the elevator can generate an upward force and pushing the
stick forward in a tricycle plane to put weight on the nose is NOT a good
idea in general. I would think it would be very easy to over do it.

Danny Dot

> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>

[Laurence Doering[_1_]]

On 3 Dec 2006 21:52:57 -0800, Dan > wrote:
> My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
> force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
> that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.
>
> If it can't produce upward force, then the rear of the plane could be
> made no lighter than when it is standing still, therefore it could
> transfer no _additional_ weight to the nosewheel no matter what the
> control inputs. Where is this logic flawed (seriously, I want to
> understand if this is wrong...)

Airplanes are normally trimmed (and loaded within limits) so the
horizontal stabilizer provides a relatively small downward force.
This gives positive pitch stability without a major increase in
drag.

If your model of how the elevator works was valid, it would be
impossible for an aircraft to fly inverted since even full down
elevator wouldn't be enough to counteract the nose-down pitch
moment.

You also have to consider that an aircraft on the ground would
pitch around an axis passing through the main landing gear,
not through the wing's center of lift.


ljd

[[email protected]]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and the nosewheel
> > have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it be proper
> > procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better steering from
> > the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems ineffective, and this
> > seems to have helped my control on rollout.
> >
> > Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but is that more of
> > a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what circumstances would
> > "wheelbarrowing" occur?
> >
> > --Dan
> >
>
> I was taught to basically use neutral elevator during the roll-out. You
> really shouldn't need to add forward pressure to get solid steering.
> Wheelbarrowing is a possibility if you apply aggresive nose down
> elevator right after landing when you speed is high, but as you slow
> down the ability to do this obviously decreases.
>
> What are your symptoms of ineffective nosewheel steering? Are you not
> able to hold the airplane on the centerline? Are you rolling in aileron
> into the wind as you slow down such that you have full aileron into the
> crosswind as you get to taxi speed?

I happened to bump into this:-
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_507740.pdf

It discusses forward pressure immideately after landing says:-

Boeing 757-2T7, G-MONC
Nature of Damage: Structural damage to forward
fuselage in area of nose landing gear
.....
Having developed an incorrect landing technique, it is possible
that it was simply a matter of time
before the timing in the application of full nose-down
elevator caused an incident
.....
Over the ensuing 1.125 seconds, the elevator position changed
from 15.6degrees nose up at touchdown to
full nose down (20degrees) and the pitch attitude
began to reduce rapidly. The aircraft became light on the
main landing gear oleos but not enough to register
a change of state of the air / ground logic. The
right reverser indicated in transit just before the
(almost simultaneous) main landing gear recompression
and nose gear ground contact. A normal acceleration
of +1.6g was recorded during the
re-compression of the main landing gear. The rate of
derotation at nose gear oleo compression was
calculated to be 10degrees/second. This figure was
confirmed by the aircraft manufacturer who also stated
the design limit value to be 7°/second.

[Jim Macklin]

Boeing airliners are designed to have the nose wheel firmly
on the ground, some even have a brake. But no airplane is
designed to have the nose forced/slammed down except maybe a
carrier based fighter.

But back to the GA aircraft and effective nose wheel
steering... steering works with the weight on the main
landing gear and the nose wheel applies force to move the
nose. If you apply forward elevator you'll be loading the
nose wheel and shifting the pivot point [fulcrum] to the
nose wheel, this will cause the airplane to weathervane even
more and result in loss of directional control.



> wrote in message
oups.com...

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and
> > the nosewheel
> > have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it
> > be proper
> > procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better
> > steering from
> > the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems
> > ineffective, and this
> > seems to have helped my control on rollout.
> >
> > Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but
> > is that more of
> > a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what
> > circumstances would
> > "wheelbarrowing" occur?
> >
> > --Dan
> >
>
> I was taught to basically use neutral elevator during the
> roll-out. You
> really shouldn't need to add forward pressure to get solid
> steering.
> Wheelbarrowing is a possibility if you apply aggresive
> nose down
> elevator right after landing when you speed is high, but
> as you slow
> down the ability to do this obviously decreases.
>
> What are your symptoms of ineffective nosewheel steering?
> Are you not
> able to hold the airplane on the centerline? Are you
> rolling in aileron
> into the wind as you slow down such that you have full
> aileron into the
> crosswind as you get to taxi speed?

I happened to bump into this:-
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_507740.pdf

It discusses forward pressure immideately after landing
says:-

Boeing 757-2T7, G-MONC
Nature of Damage: Structural damage to forward
fuselage in area of nose landing gear
.....
Having developed an incorrect landing technique, it is
possible
that it was simply a matter of time
before the timing in the application of full nose-down
elevator caused an incident
.....
Over the ensuing 1.125 seconds, the elevator position
changed
from 15.6degrees nose up at touchdown to
full nose down (20degrees) and the pitch attitude
began to reduce rapidly. The aircraft became light on the
main landing gear oleos but not enough to register
a change of state of the air / ground logic. The
right reverser indicated in transit just before the
(almost simultaneous) main landing gear recompression
and nose gear ground contact. A normal acceleration
of +1.6g was recorded during the
re-compression of the main landing gear. The rate of
derotation at nose gear oleo compression was
calculated to be 10degrees/second. This figure was
confirmed by the aircraft manufacturer who also stated
the design limit value to be 7°/second.

[mad8]

that was a very interesting read :)


wrote:
> I happened to bump into this:-
> http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_507740.pdf

[[email protected]]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Boeing airliners are designed to have the nose wheel firmly
> on the ground, some even have a brake. But no airplane is
> designed to have the nose forced/slammed down except maybe a
> carrier based fighter.
>
> But back to the GA aircraft and effective nose wheel
> steering... steering works with the weight on the main
> landing gear and the nose wheel applies force to move the
> nose. If you apply forward elevator you'll be loading the
> nose wheel and shifting the pivot point [fulcrum] to the
> nose wheel, this will cause the airplane to weathervane even
> more and result in loss of directional control.
>
>
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> Matt Whiting wrote:
> > Dan wrote:
> > > All,
> > >
> > > When touching down in a crosswind, after the mains and
> > > the nosewheel
> > > have all touched down firmly and are rolling, would it
> > > be proper
> > > procedure to apply slight forward pressure to get better
> > > steering from
> > > the nosewheel? Often, noseweel steering seems
> > > ineffective, and this
> > > seems to have helped my control on rollout.
> > >
> > > Any cautions? I have heard about "wheelbarrowing" but
> > > is that more of
> > > a takeoff issue than landing issue? Under what
> > > circumstances would
> > > "wheelbarrowing" occur?
> > >
> > > --Dan
> > >
> >
> > I was taught to basically use neutral elevator during the
> > roll-out. You
> > really shouldn't need to add forward pressure to get solid
> > steering.
> > Wheelbarrowing is a possibility if you apply aggresive
> > nose down
> > elevator right after landing when you speed is high, but
> > as you slow
> > down the ability to do this obviously decreases.
> >
> > What are your symptoms of ineffective nosewheel steering?
> > Are you not
> > able to hold the airplane on the centerline? Are you
> > rolling in aileron
> > into the wind as you slow down such that you have full
> > aileron into the
> > crosswind as you get to taxi speed?
>
> I happened to bump into this:-
> http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_507740.pdf
>
> It discusses forward pressure immideately after landing
> says:-
>
> Boeing 757-2T7, G-MONC
> Nature of Damage: Structural damage to forward
> fuselage in area of nose landing gear
> ....
> Having developed an incorrect landing technique, it is
> possible
> that it was simply a matter of time
> before the timing in the application of full nose-down
> elevator caused an incident

I thought that there was a resonance with this discussion.

If a supervised, recurrently-trained, co-piloted, airline Captain
can go astray like this what chance is there for a GA pilot
on his own? Phew!

In the full text I think that it suggests that he may have
"performed" differently in his check rides than in his day
to day flying.

Nothing malicious (intended by me or him - think it was a man),
just somehow gone down an incorrect path.

[[email protected]]

> I agree 100% that the elevator can generate an upward force and pushing the
> stick forward in a tricycle plane to put weight on the nose is NOT a good
> idea in general. I would think it would be very easy to over do it.
>
> Danny Dot

The bigger problem in wheelbarrowing is the too-fast touchdown.
The wing, if you remember your groundschooling, generates more lift at
a lower angle of attack at a higher airspeed, and a fast landing is at
a flatter attitude. Since the nosewheel usually keeps the airplane
slightly nose-high on the ground compared to flight attitude, the
nosewheel will land first, and without the control the mains offer, the
airplane becomes a really nasty taildragger. Forcing the elevator down
only make it worse, and having flaps deployed lowers the nose even
further for a given airspeed. Years ago one of our students ran a 150
off the runway into the snow and overturned it, just because he
wouldn't slow the airplane to the proper approach speed and get in on
the right glidepath. Trying to fix a bad approach by diving at the
runway and then forcing the airplane on long before it should land is a
sure way to get hurt and bust your airplane, sooner or later.
This thread was about crosswind landings. The biggest and most
common mistake I see there is the belief that the flight is over after
the wheels are on the ground. He will neutralize the controls,
including the ailerons, and in the rollout the wind could pick up the
upwind wing and flip the airplane over. More and more aileron should be
applied after touchdown until it's all used up, and then held there
until the rollout is complete. Even in taxing in a stronger wind the
controls should be used to prevent upset.

Dan

[[email protected]]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > My impression that the elevator applied varying levels of downward
> > force to balance the plane about the center of lift. I am not aware
> > that the elevator could even produce _upward_ force on the tail.
> >
>
> If the elevator couldn't generate an _upward_ force, then you couldn't pick
> up the tail on an taildragger, right? Let me assure you, you can pick up the
> tail on a taildragger.

Sure you can, but much of that lift is a pitch couple generated by
the prop's thrust line being so far above the locked mains while
standing still, and lifting of the tail while moving is largely due to
the wing's CP being well behind the mains. If you can see the elevator
in cruise flight you'll see that it is down some, to counteract the
downforce of the stabilizer.
The elevator's lifing force in some airplanes might not be
enough to maintain nose-up in inverted flight; aerobatic airplanes have
more elevator travel and the CP and CG may be closer together to reduce
the inherent stability.

[Roger[_4_]]

On 29 Dec 2006 05:28:48 -0800, "mad8" > wrote:

>that was a very interesting read :)
>
>
wrote:
>> I happened to bump into this:-
>> http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_507740.pdf

Even with aircraft designed for using the nose gear with braking, this
shows it's not a good idea to force the nose down. <:-))
That and you sure can tell the report writer was using English
English instead of American English<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com