Lessons learned from the Oregon tragedy [Archive]

December 9th 06, 06:54 AM

it's been all over the news.. family missing.. stuck in snow after getting
lost..
father attempted to walk out after 8 days to get help.. walked in circle..
figure he walked 15 miles and was found a mile from his vehicle..
mother and children are ok

In oregon

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Sorry to hear about this... Does anyone have any background on it? I
> live in Colorado and haven't heard about it.
>
> john smith wrote:
>> Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
>> area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
>> provoking questions for aviators.
>> In years past, this forum has carried several threads on surviving a
>> crash in a remote area. I behooves us all to review our personal
>> preparations for off airport landings in areas over which we will be
>> flying.
>

Montblack

December 9th 06, 09:11 AM

("john smith" wrote)
> Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
> area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
> provoking questions for aviators.

One of his problems was thinking he was 'here,' when in fact he was
....there.

Many of his subsequent decisions were based on that first wrong premise.

Montblack

kontiki

December 9th 06, 11:58 AM

Montblack wrote:
> ("john smith" wrote)
>
>>Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
>>area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
>>provoking questions for aviators.
>
>
>
> One of his problems was thinking he was 'here,' when in fact he was
> ...there.
>
> Many of his subsequent decisions were based on that first wrong premise.

perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have saved him. Or,
even a hand held radio.

Most pilots carry these items with them as a matter of course.

Jay Honeck

December 9th 06, 12:13 PM

> perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have saved him. Or,
> even a hand held radio.

It went well beyond that. Mr. Kim drove his family into mountainous
country, above the snow line, wearing tennis shoes and light clothing.
His chances of hiking out were almost nil.

I know he wasn't expecting to take a wrong turn, and I know he wasn't
expecting to get stuck in the snow, and I know he wasn't from that part
of the country -- but the unfortunate Mr. Kim apparently did not take
even the most basic precautions.

We keep a giant Tupperware container of survival gear in each of our
vehicles. In that kit is warm clothing, some food, chemical hand/feet
warmers jumper cables, flash lights, tools -- the basic survival stuff.
We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane, knowing that the
*average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the United States --
plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Matt Whiting

December 9th 06, 01:45 PM

wrote:

> Sorry to hear about this... Does anyone have any background on it? I
> live in Colorado and haven't heard about it.

You must not watch the national news much. Search with Google on his
name and you should find lots of information.

Matt

Peter R.

December 9th 06, 02:05 PM

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> but the unfortunate Mr. Kim apparently did not take
> even the most basic precautions.

Happens to pilots a lot, too, I would surmise. How many pilots who fly
over the relatively smaller, yet just as remote and lethal mountains of the
eastern US carry survival gear?

Admittedly, I am not 100% there just yet myself, but I do carry a personal
locator beacon with GPS, a handheld GPS, space blanket, survival pack
(matches, signal mirror, whistle, etc), and a first-aid kit. I don't have
food and water at this point (not sure how to store it), nor do I have a
signal gun.

Regardless of the Monday morning arm-chair quarterbacking that no doubt is
going on around the newsgroups and chat rooms of the Internet, Mr. Kim had
a very difficult decision to make at that point. I cannot imagine what
that must have been like to be in that position and I have the utmost
respect for his attempt.

--
Peter

john smith

December 9th 06, 02:34 PM

According to an FAA study I found on their website several years ago,
the time is 72 hours.

Jay Honeck wrote:

> We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane, knowing that the
>*average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the United States --
>plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.
>
>

Dan[_1_]

December 9th 06, 03:00 PM

Does this count all the planes that crash on/near runways and are
"found" in a matter of minutes? If so, it would skew the figure.

--Dan

john smith wrote:
> According to an FAA study I found on their website several years ago,
> the time is 72 hours.
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane, knowing that the
> >*average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the United States --
> >plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.
> >
> >

Blueskies

December 9th 06, 03:17 PM

"Montblack" > wrote in message ...
: ("john smith" wrote)
: > Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
: > area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
: > provoking questions for aviators.
:
:
: One of his problems was thinking he was 'here,' when in fact he was
: ...there.
:
: Many of his subsequent decisions were based on that first wrong premise.
:
:
: Montblack
:
:

And his body was found, what, about 1 mile from where the car got stuck? Certainly didn't get far....

Ron Lee

December 9th 06, 03:42 PM

"Dan" > wrote:

>I'm thinking of getting a PLB, although I haven't been able to convince
>myself to spend the money yet. Right now I carry a handheld that I hope
>to be able to raise someone on should I go down.

I have a PLB just for this type situation.

Ron Lee

Ron Lee

December 9th 06, 03:44 PM

What confuses me about this incident is how did he get in that
situation to start with. Stay on travelled roads and it would not
have been a problem. Then, could he not travel back on the road to a
more travelled one?

Ron Lee

James Robinson

December 9th 06, 04:03 PM

(Ron Lee) wrote:

> What confuses me about this incident is how did he get in that
> situation to start with. Stay on travelled roads and it would not
> have been a problem. Then, could he not travel back on the road to a
> more travelled one?

He missed the road he originally wanted to take to get from the interstate
to the coast, and saw an alternative on his map. To many people, roads are
simply lines on the map, and he probably didn't realize that it was not
very fast, wasn't paved, and climbed over a remote mountain pass.

He drove as far as he could along the road, and when he realized he
couldn't get over the pass because of snow, he turned around to retrace his
route back to the main road. He got lost, however, on the way back (it was
after dark, and snowing heavily) and mistakenly drove 15 miles up a logging
road that was normally closed for the winter. At 02:00 he stopped for the
night, but found he was snowed in the next morning.

Jim Macklin

December 9th 06, 05:03 PM

Basic gear, whether driving or flying...
warm, clothes and boots, Gore-Tex, Thinsulate, warm hat and
a balaclava. Bright colors, blaze orange. A change of
socks. Signal mirror, matches and a Zippo lighter even if
you don't smoke.
Some tools, a folding shovel, a pocket knife, a small
hatchet.
Some high energy food stuff, jerky. Water, take some fresh
liter bottles, if it is below freezing, put the unfrozen
bottles inside your coat and your body will keep them
liquid.
Stay dry, stay out of the wind, stay dry.
In a car, run the engine only 10 minutes out of every hour,
use blankets to add insulation inside the car and cover the
windows at night. Buy a bright colored car.

Have flares and smoke. Tell somebody where you plan to go
and a call-in schedule so the searchers can start looking.

Cotton clothes get wet and don't dry quickly. Wool and
modern synthetics are warmer even when wet/damp.

See sportsman's catalogs such as Cabela's www.cabelas.com
and mountain sports catalogs www.rei.com and stay dry.

There is a story I read, probably 40 years ago, about a
northern Minnesota resident who lived 30 miles from town.
Monthly he would take his snowmobile and sleds to town to
buy supplies. One day his snowmobile broke down and he
tried to fix it but could not. By that time he was very
cold, temperatures were below zero F and win chills were
lower still. He tried to light a fire, but the wood he
could find was wet. He did have thousands of wooden matches
since he had just bought a big supply. Bit he couldn't get
the fire started. A day or two later the searchers found
his body and saw all the attempts to start a fire that had
failed.

He was so cold by the time he started to think about
survival shelter and a fire he couldn't think and didn't use
the 50 gallons of kerosene, or the gasoline he had on the
sled and in the snowmobile.

First thing, shelter, second start a fire while you're still
warm and can think. Improve your shelter. Stay dry.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|> perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have
saved him. Or,
| > even a hand held radio.
|
| It went well beyond that. Mr. Kim drove his family into
mountainous
| country, above the snow line, wearing tennis shoes and
light clothing.
| His chances of hiking out were almost nil.
|
| I know he wasn't expecting to take a wrong turn, and I
know he wasn't
| expecting to get stuck in the snow, and I know he wasn't
from that part
| of the country -- but the unfortunate Mr. Kim apparently
did not take
| even the most basic precautions.
|
| We keep a giant Tupperware container of survival gear in
each of our
| vehicles. In that kit is warm clothing, some food,
chemical hand/feet
| warmers jumper cables, flash lights, tools -- the basic
survival stuff.
| We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane,
knowing that the
| *average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the
United States --
| plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

NW_Pilot

December 9th 06, 06:17 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have saved him. Or,
>> even a hand held radio.
>
> It went well beyond that. Mr. Kim drove his family into mountainous
> country, above the snow line, wearing tennis shoes and light clothing.
> His chances of hiking out were almost nil.
>
> I know he wasn't expecting to take a wrong turn, and I know he wasn't
> expecting to get stuck in the snow, and I know he wasn't from that part
> of the country -- but the unfortunate Mr. Kim apparently did not take
> even the most basic precautions.
>
> We keep a giant Tupperware container of survival gear in each of our
> vehicles. In that kit is warm clothing, some food, chemical hand/feet
> warmers jumper cables, flash lights, tools -- the basic survival stuff.
> We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane, knowing that the
> *average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the United States --
> plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Jay, I live in the Pacific Northwest I never go on a mountain drive with
out crap to get myself unstuck and a full size spare tire and I carry and
have winter clothes and usually some sort of hunting equipment & a radio
with plenty of batteries. I know the area and unless you have some sort of
a transmitter even a CB you would be lucky to be found if ever during the
winter on some of the logging roads can go on for miles and miles and miles.

Peter Duniho

December 9th 06, 06:31 PM

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
. net...
> And his body was found, what, about 1 mile from where the car got stuck?
> Certainly didn't get far....

One miles straight-line. He had traveled approximately 10 miles total, and
the straight-line route back to the car from where he was not walkable.
You'd need climbing equipment to navigate it, even on a nice summer day.

Morgans[_2_]

December 9th 06, 06:32 PM

"NW_Pilot" > wrote

> Jay, I live in the Pacific Northwest I never go on a mountain drive with out
> crap to get myself unstuck and a full size spare tire and I carry and have
> winter clothes and usually some sort of hunting equipment & a radio with
> plenty of batteries. I know the area and unless you have some sort of a
> transmitter even a CB you would be lucky to be found if ever during the winter
> on some of the logging roads can go on for miles and miles and miles.

Carrying a real set of chains should be considered required equipment for winter
driving, as well as a come-a-long and a good length or stout rope, or chain. I
consider 25 feet an absolute minimum.

Food bars, water and a candle and blankets also are good items, as well as boots
and gloves.
--
Jim in NC

Ron Lee

December 9th 06, 07:08 PM

Richard Riley > wrote:

>On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:42:38 GMT, (Ron Lee)
>wrote:
>
>>"Dan" > wrote:
>>
>>>I'm thinking of getting a PLB, although I haven't been able to convince
>>>myself to spend the money yet. Right now I carry a handheld that I hope
>>>to be able to raise someone on should I go down.
>>
>>I have a PLB just for this type situation.
>>
>
>406 Mhz? Which brand?

McMurdo Fastfind with GPS

Ron Lee

karl gruber[_1_]

December 9th 06, 07:19 PM

I have taught my kids how to use the VHF handheld and a high chart to call
airliners. I actually used this once when camped out in my seaplane. The
weather came in and we couldn't get out for two extra days.

It was no big deal because we were VERY well equipped and I needed to use up
the survival food anyway. But I called a passing airliner I heard on
frequency. I asked the pilot to please give my wife a call and tell her we
were OK and that there would be a delay. He did and we flew out two days
later.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG
Lake Isabelle

[email protected]

December 9th 06, 08:15 PM

john smith wrote:
> Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
> area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
> provoking questions for aviators.
> In years past, this forum has carried several threads on surviving a
> crash in a remote area. I behooves us all to review our personal
> preparations for off airport landings in areas over which we will be
> flying.

I snowmobile as well as fly, and I think in general, adventurous people
like myself that do a lot of outdoor activities like flying and
snowmobiling just know about and take basic survival with them and know
the dangers of the mountains or even the outdoors.

But you get a typical person who isn't much of an outdoorsman, who for
the most part lives in the city where there is no shortage of resources
and most don't even give basis survival equipment a second (let alone
first) thought when traveling. They get in their car and go.

It is a very tragic story. I was following it on the news hoping that
they would find him alive.

I feel so sad for him family :(

Mxsmanic

December 9th 06, 09:29 PM

Dan writes:

> I'm thinking of getting a PLB, although I haven't been able to convince
> myself to spend the money yet. Right now I carry a handheld that I hope
> to be able to raise someone on should I go down.

The range of the handheld on the ground might be far more limited than
its range aloft. If the aircraft has an ELT and you stay with it,
you'll be found quickly enough, handheld or not. A handheld GPS can
be handy, too, just to let you know where you are (and it will work
fine on the ground).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic

December 9th 06, 09:31 PM

Montblack writes:

> One of his problems was thinking he was 'here,' when in fact he was
> ...there.
>
> Many of his subsequent decisions were based on that first wrong premise.

Nevertheless, his decisions were basically sound. He stayed with the
vehicle for days, waiting for rescue, which is exactly what he should
have done (and that saved his family). After a week, he quite
logically assumed that maybe nobody was coming, and in desperation he
decided to try to find help. He pretty much did things right, but he
was unlucky (and also somewhat unprepared, although he presumably had
no plans to go somewhere where he might get stranded).

The question that lingers in my mind is: Was the lock on the gate
already broken before the Kims passed through, or did they cut it so
that they could go through?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic

December 9th 06, 09:34 PM

Jay Honeck writes:

> I know he wasn't expecting to take a wrong turn, and I know he wasn't
> expecting to get stuck in the snow, and I know he wasn't from that part
> of the country -- but the unfortunate Mr. Kim apparently did not take
> even the most basic precautions.

Granted ... but how many people _do_ take these precautions? How many
people driving through the wilderness really do carry survival gear
and supplies, just in case?

> We keep a giant Tupperware container of survival gear in each of our
> vehicles. In that kit is warm clothing, some food, chemical hand/feet
> warmers jumper cables, flash lights, tools -- the basic survival stuff.

Sounds sensible. Is there anything that you have to replace or renew
periodically?

> We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane, knowing that the
> *average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the United States --
> plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.

Seems to me that survival gear would be an ideal form of ballast when
you need to adjust the aircraft's center of gravity. A few pounds can
go a long way (except for water, which is extremely heavy).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic

December 9th 06, 09:38 PM

Richard Riley writes:

> And the dirt road is listed as a primary on automotive GPS systems.

Hmm ... does this mean that the maker of the map for the GPS systems
may be liable?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Montblack

December 9th 06, 10:04 PM

("Jim Macklin" wrote)
> Have flares and smoke.

They set all five tires one fire - one at a time.

How many average people, finding themselves stuck out there, would have
thought to do that?

Montblack

Newps

December 9th 06, 11:36 PM

Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other outcome.

john smith wrote:

> Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
> area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
> provoking questions for aviators.
> In years past, this forum has carried several threads on surviving a
> crash in a remote area. I behooves us all to review our personal
> preparations for off airport landings in areas over which we will be
> flying.

Jim Macklin

December 9th 06, 11:46 PM

That was the smartest thing they did. Tire smoke is very
dark and easy to see in the day time with high clouds, not
much good at night or in snow. Neither are flares, but like
having extra keys, planning for the emergency may make it
not happen.

His worst decision was to try to walk out. On any road, the
searchers would have a better chance to see the car. The
car was some shelter and that applies to an airplane too.
Stay with the crash/landing site. Lay out markers.

"Montblack" > wrote
in message ...
| ("Jim Macklin" wrote)
| > Have flares and smoke.
|
|
| They set all five tires one fire - one at a time.
|
| How many average people, finding themselves stuck out
there, would have
| thought to do that?
|
|
| Montblack
|
|

john smith

December 10th 06, 12:04 AM

In article >,
Newps > wrote:

> Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other outcome.

Sure there could have!
He walked the wrong way.
One mile in the opposite direction was a stocked fishing lodge,
according to the reports I have been reading.
It sounds as though he didn't scout the area in the week he stayed with
the car. (Hindsight, I know.)

Bob Gardner

December 10th 06, 12:09 AM

...and he was an uber-geek...editor of an online technical magazine. Can't
imagine why he didn't have a GPS. Mine would have nagged me as soon as I
missed the turn off of the freeway, and led me onto the correct road.

Bob Gardner

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Montblack wrote:
>> ("john smith" wrote)
>>
>>>Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
>>>area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
>>>provoking questions for aviators.
>>
>>
>>
>> One of his problems was thinking he was 'here,' when in fact he was
>> ...there.
>>
>> Many of his subsequent decisions were based on that first wrong premise.
>
> perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have saved him. Or,
> even a hand held radio.
>
> Most pilots carry these items with them as a matter of course.

Bob Gardner

December 10th 06, 12:10 AM

Lesson learned from a bush pilot: Get into the airplane prepared to walk
home.

Bob Gardner

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> Basic gear, whether driving or flying...
> warm, clothes and boots, Gore-Tex, Thinsulate, warm hat and
> a balaclava. Bright colors, blaze orange. A change of
> socks. Signal mirror, matches and a Zippo lighter even if
> you don't smoke.
> Some tools, a folding shovel, a pocket knife, a small
> hatchet.
> Some high energy food stuff, jerky. Water, take some fresh
> liter bottles, if it is below freezing, put the unfrozen
> bottles inside your coat and your body will keep them
> liquid.
> Stay dry, stay out of the wind, stay dry.
> In a car, run the engine only 10 minutes out of every hour,
> use blankets to add insulation inside the car and cover the
> windows at night. Buy a bright colored car.
>
> Have flares and smoke. Tell somebody where you plan to go
> and a call-in schedule so the searchers can start looking.
>
> Cotton clothes get wet and don't dry quickly. Wool and
> modern synthetics are warmer even when wet/damp.
>
> See sportsman's catalogs such as Cabela's www.cabelas.com
> and mountain sports catalogs www.rei.com and stay dry.
>
> There is a story I read, probably 40 years ago, about a
> northern Minnesota resident who lived 30 miles from town.
> Monthly he would take his snowmobile and sleds to town to
> buy supplies. One day his snowmobile broke down and he
> tried to fix it but could not. By that time he was very
> cold, temperatures were below zero F and win chills were
> lower still. He tried to light a fire, but the wood he
> could find was wet. He did have thousands of wooden matches
> since he had just bought a big supply. Bit he couldn't get
> the fire started. A day or two later the searchers found
> his body and saw all the attempts to start a fire that had
> failed.
>
> He was so cold by the time he started to think about
> survival shelter and a fire he couldn't think and didn't use
> the 50 gallons of kerosene, or the gasoline he had on the
> sled and in the snowmobile.
>
> First thing, shelter, second start a fire while you're still
> warm and can think. Improve your shelter. Stay dry.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> |> perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have
> saved him. Or,
> | > even a hand held radio.
> |
> | It went well beyond that. Mr. Kim drove his family into
> mountainous
> | country, above the snow line, wearing tennis shoes and
> light clothing.
> | His chances of hiking out were almost nil.
> |
> | I know he wasn't expecting to take a wrong turn, and I
> know he wasn't
> | expecting to get stuck in the snow, and I know he wasn't
> from that part
> | of the country -- but the unfortunate Mr. Kim apparently
> did not take
> | even the most basic precautions.
> |
> | We keep a giant Tupperware container of survival gear in
> each of our
> | vehicles. In that kit is warm clothing, some food,
> chemical hand/feet
> | warmers jumper cables, flash lights, tools -- the basic
> survival stuff.
> | We have an even more extensive kit in our airplane,
> knowing that the
> | *average* time from crash to rescue is 18 hours in the
> United States --
> | plenty long to die of exposure in the Midwest.
> | --
> | Jay Honeck
> | Iowa City, IA
> | Pathfinder N56993
> | www.AlexisParkInn.com
> | "Your Aviation Destination"
> |
>
>

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 12:21 AM

Ron Lee

December 10th 06, 12:34 AM

Mxsmanic > wrote:

>Richard Riley writes:
>
>> And the dirt road is listed as a primary on automotive GPS systems.
>
>Hmm ... does this mean that the maker of the map for the GPS systems
>may be liable?

And the driver could not look outside to see that he was not a
suitable road? We need to spend less time trying to make someone
liable other than the person who made the mistake.

Ron Lee

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 02:34 AM

Jim Macklin wrote:
> That was the smartest thing they did. Tire smoke is very
> dark and easy to see in the day time with high clouds, not
> much good at night or in snow. Neither are flares, but like
> having extra keys, planning for the emergency may make it
> not happen.
>
> His worst decision was to try to walk out. On any road, the
> searchers would have a better chance to see the car. The
> car was some shelter and that applies to an airplane too.
> Stay with the crash/landing site. Lay out markers.

I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
sitting waiting on someone who may never come.

Matt

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 02:56 AM

Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival
and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out might
be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when a
flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be coming is
the best option.
But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
close to the route they should have been on? His body
warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
mother and two small children.

The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
due to the use of water and calories.

It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk, water,
maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small cooler
with food for the trip would have made a difference.
Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state
has a road department or police that will tell you about
road closings and weather. The things that they could have
done before hand is a long list, any one or two might have
made the difference.

A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
service.

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > That was the smartest thing they did. Tire smoke is
very
| > dark and easy to see in the day time with high clouds,
not
| > much good at night or in snow. Neither are flares, but
like
| > having extra keys, planning for the emergency may make
it
| > not happen.
| >
| > His worst decision was to try to walk out. On any road,
the
| > searchers would have a better chance to see the car.
The
| > car was some shelter and that applies to an airplane
too.
| > Stay with the crash/landing site. Lay out markers.
|
| I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I
could follow it
| for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die
trying than die
| sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
|
|
| Matt

Wizard of Draws

December 10th 06, 03:08 AM

On 12/9/06 6:58 AM, in article , "kontiki"
> wrote:

> Montblack wrote:
>> ("john smith" wrote)
>>
>>> Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
>>> area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
>>> provoking questions for aviators.
>>
>>
>>
>> One of his problems was thinking he was 'here,' when in fact he was
>> ...there.
>>
>> Many of his subsequent decisions were based on that first wrong premise.
>
> perhaps something as simple as a hand held GPS could have saved him. Or,
> even a hand held radio.
>
> Most pilots carry these items with them as a matter of course.

You're the first person besides myself to mention this. The guy was a tech
geek, with not even a cheap, handheld GPS, let alone one with street maps?
My Lowrance 2000c in driving mode was much more informative than our paper
map during our last vacation.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Mxsmanic

December 10th 06, 03:09 AM

"Jim Macklin" > writes:

> The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
> fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
> due to the use of water and calories.

There was snow, which could be melted (presumably) to provide fresh
water. People can go without food for quite a while, easily two
weeks. Very young children should be fed when possible, but breast
milk provides everything required for that, and the mom can easily
afford the loss of calories over short periods (days, two weeks,
etc.).

> It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
> blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
> very warm.

I thought I read they were going to get a Christmas tree. If so, they
really should have taken more gear and food, just in case.

> A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
> they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
> tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
> clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
> service.

Sounds a lot like a flight plan. But a lot of pilots don't bother to
file flight plans, either.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

karl gruber[_1_]

December 10th 06, 03:41 AM

But how did he end up in the river?

For sure, I'd have walked down the road.

Karl

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 04:36 AM

Jim Macklin wrote:

> Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival
> and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out might
> be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when a
> flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be coming is
> the best option.
> But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
> close to the route they should have been on? His body
> warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
> mother and two small children.
>
> The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast
> fed her children, but that would materially shorten her life
> due to the use of water and calories.
>
> It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
> blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and are
> very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk, water,
> maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small cooler
> with food for the trip would have made a difference.
> Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state
> has a road department or police that will tell you about
> road closings and weather. The things that they could have
> done before hand is a long list, any one or two might have
> made the difference.
>
> A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
> they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
> tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but auto
> clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans" as a
> service.

Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a
day in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can
walk 50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50
miles from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help
faster than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where
nobody knows where I am.

I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that
you are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense.
The trouble with general advice is that it often is useless
specifically. :-)

Matt

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 04:37 AM

karl gruber wrote:

> But how did he end up in the river?

Looking for a drink?

> For sure, I'd have walked down the road.

Until you became delirious from hypothermia... At that point, you don't
know what you might do.

Matt

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 05:08 AM

It is all moot for Kim. People who know what and how to
hike out, who know where they are (maybe with a compass and
topo map, maybe with a GPS), who have the equipment and
supplies are not as likely to get themselves and their
family in such dire straits.

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| > Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied
survival
| > and always have some minimum supplies, so walking out
might
| > be an option, but sitting it out with the supplies when
a
| > flight plan has been filed and S&R was known to be
coming is
| > the best option.
| > But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they
| > close to the route they should have been on? His body
| > warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just
the
| > mother and two small children.
| >
| > The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother
breast
| > fed her children, but that would materially shorten her
life
| > due to the use of water and calories.
| >
| > It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and
| > blankets in stuff sacks, they take very little room and
are
| > very warm. Some survival foods, jerky, canned milk,
water,
| > maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit, even a small
cooler
| > with food for the trip would have made a difference.
| > Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every
state
| > has a road department or police that will tell you about
| > road closings and weather. The things that they could
have
| > done before hand is a long list, any one or two might
have
| > made the difference.
| >
| > A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that
| > they call out the police if you don't call them by 10 PM
| > tonight would get S&R looking. Haven't checked, but
auto
| > clubs and car rental agencies could offer "drive plans"
as a
| > service.
|
| Yes, all are things that should have been done. However,
I still am not
| convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the
vehicle is correct.
| With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily
walk 10 miles a
| day in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every
year) and I can
| walk 50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was
less than 50
| miles from civilization, I think I have a good chance of
getting help
| faster than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like
this where
| nobody knows where I am.
|
| I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you
are and that
| you are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot
of sense.
| The trouble with general advice is that it often is
useless
| specifically. :-)
|
|
| Matt

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 05:09 AM

Grumman-581[_1_]

December 10th 06, 10:51 AM

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 20:56:38 -0600, in >,
Jim Macklin wrote:
> His body warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
> mother and two small children.

Maybe I'm a pesimist, but I suspect he got tired of hearing his wife
complain things like, "Now this is a fine mess you've gotten us into" and
"I told you to ask directions, by *noooo*, you wouldn't listen Mr.
KnowItAll" and decided he would rather face the cold and possibly die than
listen to her anymore...

Grumman-581[_1_]

December 10th 06, 11:10 AM

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 19:41:10 -0800, in >,
karl gruber wrote:
> But how did he end up in the river?

Maybe he figured that following the water would be the smoothest
course... At the very least, it guarantees that you are decreasing in
altitude... Unless the waterway goes underground, eventually he would end
up on the coast at the very worst... Maybe he figured that he would find
one of the camps along the river where the kayakers put in at...

> For sure, I'd have walked down the road.

The problem was, he was definitely lost... At that point, he probably
wasn't sure which way would get him out of there... Yeah, maybe going back
the way he came would have helped for a bit, but soon he would be at yet
another logging road intersection and he might not know where to go from
there... He screwed up... Darwin didn't quite win since he at least had a
chance to pass on his genes...

Kyle Boatright

December 10th 06, 01:49 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Macklin wrote:
>
>> Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival and always have
>> some minimum supplies, so walking out might be an option, but sitting it
>> out with the supplies when a flight plan has been filed and S&R was known
>> to be coming is the best option.
>> But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they close to the
>> route they should have been on? His body warmth in the car, a group
>> huddle is warmer than just the mother and two small children.
>>
>> The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast fed her
>> children, but that would materially shorten her life due to the use of
>> water and calories.
>>
>> It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and blankets in stuff
>> sacks, they take very little room and are very warm. Some survival
>> foods, jerky, canned milk, water, maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit,
>> even a small cooler with food for the trip would have made a difference.
>> Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state has a road
>> department or police that will tell you about road closings and weather.
>> The things that they could have done before hand is a long list, any one
>> or two might have made the difference.
>>
>> A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that they call out
>> the police if you don't call them by 10 PM tonight would get S&R looking.
>> Haven't checked, but auto clubs and car rental agencies could offer
>> "drive plans" as a service.
>
> Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
> convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
> With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
> in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can walk
> 50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50 miles
> from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help faster
> than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where nobody knows
> where I am.
>
> I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that you
> are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense. The
> trouble with general advice is that it often is useless specifically. :-)
>
>
> Matt

I agree that it may be worth trying to walk out, but only IF you know where
you are and have a good idea of where you need to go. In this case, it
sounds like he just started walking in hopes of finding someone or
something. That's a bad plan unless the weather is good and/or you're in an
area where you are likely to find help quickly.

KB

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 02:08 PM

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jim Macklin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well, we, as trained pilots, should have studied survival and always have
>>>some minimum supplies, so walking out might be an option, but sitting it
>>>out with the supplies when a flight plan has been filed and S&R was known
>>>to be coming is the best option.
>>>But was anybody looking that they knew about, were they close to the
>>>route they should have been on? His body warmth in the car, a group
>>>huddle is warmer than just the mother and two small children.
>>>
>>>The miracle is that they all did not die. The mother breast fed her
>>>children, but that would materially shorten her life due to the use of
>>>water and calories.
>>>
>>>It was foolish to not have some goose down clothing and blankets in stuff
>>>sacks, they take very little room and are very warm. Some survival
>>>foods, jerky, canned milk, water, maybe some chocolate bars, nuts, fruit,
>>>even a small cooler with food for the trip would have made a difference.
>>>Calling the AAA to get a road report and maps. Every state has a road
>>>department or police that will tell you about road closings and weather.
>>>The things that they could have done before hand is a long list, any one
>>>or two might have made the difference.
>>>
>>>A simple call to a friend someplace, with a request that they call out
>>>the police if you don't call them by 10 PM tonight would get S&R looking.
>>>Haven't checked, but auto clubs and car rental agencies could offer
>>>"drive plans" as a service.
>>
>>Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
>>convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
>>With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
>>in pretty rough terrain (I do it hunting most every year) and I can walk
>>50 miles a day on roads or level terrain. If I was less than 50 miles
>>from civilization, I think I have a good chance of getting help faster
>>than waiting for rescue, especially in a case like this where nobody knows
>>where I am.
>>
>>I agree that if it is likely that someone knows where you are and that you
>>are overdue, then staying with the vehicle makes a lot of sense. The
>>trouble with general advice is that it often is useless specifically. :-)
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> I agree that it may be worth trying to walk out, but only IF you know where
> you are and have a good idea of where you need to go. In this case, it
> sounds like he just started walking in hopes of finding someone or
> something. That's a bad plan unless the weather is good and/or you're in an
> area where you are likely to find help quickly.

Yes, and depends on what kind of shape you are in, etc. I hunt enough
to know what I can do in a variety of weather and terrain. Folks who
leave the city only on vacation are less likely to know their
capabilities and limitations.

Matt

Peter Dohm

December 10th 06, 03:27 PM

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Newps > wrote:
>
> > Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other outcome.
>
> Sure there could have!
> He walked the wrong way.
> One mile in the opposite direction was a stocked fishing lodge,
> according to the reports I have been reading.
> It sounds as though he didn't scout the area in the week he stayed with
> the car. (Hindsight, I know.)

I'm not an outdoorsman, and never have been; but I've been reading the
additions to this thread each morning, with a sour expression on my kisser,
and this is one of the first posts that has made a lot of sense--scout the
area while you still can.

I don't watch scheduled TV, so last evening I finally did a quick web search
to learn a little more about this story. It appeared that they did have
some supplies, and that they did use them at least as well as could be
reasonably expected from the written advice that is routinely given. I
might add that a lot of the advice regarding staying with the "wreckage"
presumes that there is some reason that the wreckage might be found, and
that there may be injuries. Also, a lot of the advice was written before
most airplanes were painted white!

With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they were
underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather gear in an area
that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge less harshly.
Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas can be annoying,
since you can't walk around outside as far as you planned, and the rest of
the outerwear that you used incorrectly may cause you to "catch your death";
but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the hot tub will probably cure all
that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness, a lot of incorrectly recommended
clothing (or simply inexperience) is a severe handicap!

Peter

john smith

December 10th 06, 04:03 PM

That's probably the best explaination I have yet heard..
Cooped up in a car with a wife and two small kids for a week!
That's enough to drive any man nuts. ;-))
(nice touch of comic relief)

Grumman-581 wrote:

>On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 20:56:38 -0600, in >,
>Jim Macklin wrote:
>
>
>>His body warmth in the car, a group huddle is warmer than just the
>>mother and two small children.
>>
>>
>
>Maybe I'm a pesimist, but I suspect he got tired of hearing his wife
>complain things like, "Now this is a fine mess you've gotten us into" and
>"I told you to ask directions, by *noooo*, you wouldn't listen Mr.
>KnowItAll" and decided he would rather face the cold and possibly die than
>listen to her anymore...
>
>

Peter Dohm

December 10th 06, 04:05 PM

It seems that I forgot to read my post one last time after editing, with the
result that I left out the main point--my own unsuccessfull outfitting was
for a ski trip some years ago. (The poor choices and usage are only
annoying at a ski resort, but dissastrous in the wilderness.) The parapragh
sould have read:

----------

With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they were
underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather gear in an area
that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge less harshly.
Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas can be annoying at a
ski resort, since you can't walk around outside as far as you planned, and
the rest of the outerwear that you used incorrectly may cause you to "catch
your death"; but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the hot tub will
probably cure all that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness, a lot of
incorrectly recommended clothing (or simply inexperience) is a severe
handicap!

----------

I'm sorry about the way my post looked with the omission.

Peter

Newps

December 10th 06, 04:20 PM

Peter Dohm wrote:

>
> With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they were
> underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather gear in an area
> that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge less harshly.
> Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas can be annoying,
> since you can't walk around outside as far as you planned, and the rest of
> the outerwear that you used incorrectly may cause you to "catch your death";
> but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the hot tub will probably cure all
> that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness, a lot of incorrectly recommended
> clothing (or simply inexperience) is a severe handicap!

You don't need giant muk luks. A good hiking boot would have been a
tremendous asset. Hunting boots would have been better yet and snow
boots the best, With tennis shoes his feet were frozen 10 minutes after
he left the car. Any hat that covers the ears would have been a huge
difference. Any mittens or gloves likewise. To drive into the
mountains without those was reckless. To leave the car without those
was a death sentence.

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 04:23 PM

Ski clothes are NOT designed for wilderness survival, but
mobility and aerodynamics. Hunting and mountain climbing
clothes are designed to keep your body warm, dry and as a
layer system. Some hunting clothes are designed to be hard
to see, but visibility is enhanced with blaze vests and
mountain climbing stuff often has many bright colors so
climbers can be seen and identified by color.

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
...
| It seems that I forgot to read my post one last time after
editing, with the
| result that I left out the main point--my own
unsuccessfull outfitting was
| for a ski trip some years ago. (The poor choices and
usage are only
| annoying at a ski resort, but dissastrous in the
wilderness.) The parapragh
| sould have read:
|
| ----------
|
| With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they
were
| underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather
gear in an area
| that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge
less harshly.
| Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas can
be annoying at a
| ski resort, since you can't walk around outside as far as
you planned, and
| the rest of the outerwear that you used incorrectly may
cause you to "catch
| your death"; but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the
hot tub will
| probably cure all that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness,
a lot of
| incorrectly recommended clothing (or simply inexperience)
is a severe
| handicap!
|
| ----------
|
| I'm sorry about the way my post looked with the omission.
|
| Peter
|
|
|

[email protected]

December 10th 06, 04:25 PM

I don't have cable and I don't watch TV (except DVDs). I could afford
it, but have just found it pointless after the past couple of years
(the loss of the non-Fox Speedvision and Wings channel in particular).
Unless you're into reality TV, television is just terrible. I do check
CNN and my local news almost every day, and didn't see this apparently
high profile story.

Anyway, as I said originally I'm sorry to hear about this. But having
lived and played in and around the high country (CO front range
mountains), I find this lack of preparation irresponsible and frankly
not very smart. Leaving your car in the 1st place is a BAD MOVE...

Matt Whiting wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Sorry to hear about this... Does anyone have any background on it? I
> > live in Colorado and haven't heard about it.
>
> You must not watch the national news much. Search with Google on his
> name and you should find lots of information.
>
> Matt

[email protected]

December 10th 06, 04:28 PM

Jim Macklin wrote:
>
> He was so cold by the time he started to think about
> survival shelter and a fire he couldn't think and didn't use
> the 50 gallons of kerosene, or the gasoline he had on the
> sled and in the snowmobile.
>

Once hypothermia sets in, you are on very dangerous ground. Typically
a person will start doing very irrational things like throw their
jacket away, or in this case, forget about the kerosene.

[email protected]

December 10th 06, 04:35 PM

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
> for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
> sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
>

I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've ever heard of
anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm sure there's a
couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in our general
area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of exposure deaths
were when people left a protective shelter.

Ron Wanttaja

December 10th 06, 05:07 PM

On 10 Dec 2006 08:35:07 -0800, wrote:

>
>Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>> I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
>> for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
>> sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
>
>I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've ever heard of
>anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm sure there's a
>couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in our general
>area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of exposure deaths
>were when people left a protective shelter.

Seattle-area news last night said that this was not the first death due to a car
getting stuck on the same stretch of road. Another happened about twenty,
twenty-five years ago. The driver stayed with the vehicle. He kept a diary, it
ended after about sixty days. Death due to starvation.

Ron Wanttaja

Kev

December 10th 06, 05:30 PM

karl gruber wrote:
> But how did he end up in the river?

It could've simply been covered over and he fell in.

But some reports said that tracks showed a bear might've chased him
into the river.

Kev

Newps

December 10th 06, 05:55 PM

wrote:

> Unless you're into reality TV, television is just terrible.

Military channel, History, Discovery, Discovery Times, TLC. There's a
lot of great TV out there.

James Robinson

December 10th 06, 05:58 PM

wrote:
>
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>> I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
>> for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
>> sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
>
> I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've ever heard of
> anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm sure there's a
> couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in our general
> area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of exposure deaths
> were when people left a protective shelter.

About 12 years ago, a person named Dewitt Finley drove into the same area
in his camper, and got stuck in snow. He stayed with the truck, and they
found him next spring. He had kept a diary, meticulously noting the
passing days, and anticipating rescue. He starved to death after about 2
month's wait.

The irony was that he got stuck only a few hundred feet from an open road
that he could have easily walked along to safety, but he apparantly never
left the truck to look around.

Peter Dohm

December 10th 06, 06:33 PM

> >
> > With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they were
> > underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather gear in an area
> > that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge less harshly.
> > Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas can be annoying,
> > since you can't walk around outside as far as you planned, and the rest
of
> > the outerwear that you used incorrectly may cause you to "catch your
death";
> > but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the hot tub will probably cure
all
> > that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness, a lot of incorrectly
recommended
> > clothing (or simply inexperience) is a severe handicap!
>
>
> You don't need giant muk luks. A good hiking boot would have been a
> tremendous asset. Hunting boots would have been better yet and snow
> boots the best, With tennis shoes his feet were frozen 10 minutes after
> he left the car. Any hat that covers the ears would have been a huge
> difference. Any mittens or gloves likewise. To drive into the
> mountains without those was reckless. To leave the car without those
> was a death sentence.

All agreed, having learned a little from my ignorance years ago, except
possibly the last item. If the car was white, or any earth tone, then I
suspect that all bets may be off. :-(

Peter

Peter Dohm

December 10th 06, 06:38 PM

> > He was so cold by the time he started to think about
> > survival shelter and a fire he couldn't think and didn't use
> > the 50 gallons of kerosene, or the gasoline he had on the
> > sled and in the snowmobile.
> >
>
> Once hypothermia sets in, you are on very dangerous ground. Typically
> a person will start doing very irrational things like throw their
> jacket away, or in this case, forget about the kerosene.
>
I've both read that from reliable sources and heard the same from a former
coworker who was simply lucky enouth to be rescued in time.

Also included in my coworker's story was that he had ceased feeling cold,
and that the snow started to look warm and comfortable.

Peter

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 06:44 PM

Also, ski clothes are designed to keep you cool as your
exercise very hard on the down hill runs.

"Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message ...
| Ski clothes are NOT designed for wilderness survival, but
| mobility and aerodynamics. Hunting and mountain climbing
| clothes are designed to keep your body warm, dry and as a
| layer system. Some hunting clothes are designed to be
hard
| to see, but visibility is enhanced with blaze vests and
| mountain climbing stuff often has many bright colors so
| climbers can be seen and identified by color.
|
|
|
| "Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
| ...
|| It seems that I forgot to read my post one last time
after
| editing, with the
|| result that I left out the main point--my own
| unsuccessfull outfitting was
|| for a ski trip some years ago. (The poor choices and
| usage are only
|| annoying at a ski resort, but dissastrous in the
| wilderness.) The parapragh
|| sould have read:
||
|| ----------
||
|| With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they
| were
|| underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather
| gear in an area
|| that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge
| less harshly.
|| Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas
can
| be annoying at a
|| ski resort, since you can't walk around outside as far as
| you planned, and
|| the rest of the outerwear that you used incorrectly may
| cause you to "catch
|| your death"; but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the
| hot tub will
|| probably cure all that ails you. OTOH, in the
wilderness,
| a lot of
|| incorrectly recommended clothing (or simply inexperience)
| is a severe
|| handicap!
||
|| ----------
||
|| I'm sorry about the way my post looked with the omission.
||
|| Peter
||
||
||
|
|

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 06:45 PM

NASA TV too, you get the heads up display on shuttle
approach and landings.

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
|
|
| wrote:
|
|
| > Unless you're into reality TV, television is just
terrible.
|
|
| Military channel, History, Discovery, Discovery Times,
TLC. There's a
| lot of great TV out there.

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 06:47 PM

Hypoxia and freezing to death are both said to be the best
way to go, except for being exhausted by a team of Swedish
bikini ski team girls.

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
news:PtYeh.1114$U6.786@bigfe9...
|> > He was so cold by the time he started to think about
| > > survival shelter and a fire he couldn't think and
didn't use
| > > the 50 gallons of kerosene, or the gasoline he had on
the
| > > sled and in the snowmobile.
| > >
| >
| > Once hypothermia sets in, you are on very dangerous
ground. Typically
| > a person will start doing very irrational things like
throw their
| > jacket away, or in this case, forget about the kerosene.
| >
| I've both read that from reliable sources and heard the
same from a former
| coworker who was simply lucky enouth to be rescued in
time.
|
| Also included in my coworker's story was that he had
ceased feeling cold,
| and that the snow started to look warm and comfortable.
|
| Peter
|
|

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 06:49 PM

You don't starve in six days. You can run out of water, but
cold exposure is more likely. Was anybody looking for the
person you spoke about?

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
| On 10 Dec 2006 08:35:07 -0800, wrote:
|
| >
| >Matt Whiting wrote:
| >>
| >> I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I
could follow it
| >> for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die
trying than die
| >> sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
| >
| >I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've
ever heard of
| >anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm sure
there's a
| >couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in
our general
| >area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of
exposure deaths
| >were when people left a protective shelter.
|
| Seattle-area news last night said that this was not the
first death due to a car
| getting stuck on the same stretch of road. Another
happened about twenty,
| twenty-five years ago. The driver stayed with the
vehicle. He kept a diary, it
| ended after about sixty days. Death due to starvation.
|
| Ron Wanttaja

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 06:52 PM

If your car is white or brown or green, carry a blaze orange
or lime green space blanket and use it as a car cover, will
help keep the warmer at night and really stand out in the
day time.

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
news:PoYeh.1113$U6.953@bigfe9...
|> >
| > > With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that
they were
| > > underequipped. However, having shopped for cold
weather gear in an area
| > > that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to
judge less harshly.
| > > Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas
can be annoying,
| > > since you can't walk around outside as far as you
planned, and the rest
| of
| > > the outerwear that you used incorrectly may cause you
to "catch your
| death";
| > > but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the hot tub
will probably cure
| all
| > > that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness, a lot of
incorrectly
| recommended
| > > clothing (or simply inexperience) is a severe
handicap!
| >
| >
| > You don't need giant muk luks. A good hiking boot would
have been a
| > tremendous asset. Hunting boots would have been better
yet and snow
| > boots the best, With tennis shoes his feet were frozen
10 minutes after
| > he left the car. Any hat that covers the ears would
have been a huge
| > difference. Any mittens or gloves likewise. To drive
into the
| > mountains without those was reckless. To leave the car
without those
| > was a death sentence.
|
| All agreed, having learned a little from my ignorance
years ago, except
| possibly the last item. If the car was white, or any
earth tone, then I
| suspect that all bets may be off. :-(
|
| Peter
|
|

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 06:57 PM

wrote:
> I don't have cable and I don't watch TV (except DVDs). I could afford
> it, but have just found it pointless after the past couple of years
> (the loss of the non-Fox Speedvision and Wings channel in particular).
> Unless you're into reality TV, television is just terrible. I do check
> CNN and my local news almost every day, and didn't see this apparently
> high profile story.
>
> Anyway, as I said originally I'm sorry to hear about this. But having
> lived and played in and around the high country (CO front range
> mountains), I find this lack of preparation irresponsible and frankly
> not very smart. Leaving your car in the 1st place is a BAD MOVE...

I have only what I get with rabbit ears (two local channels and a very
snowy Fox channel), however, I do check MSNBC and CNN on the internet.
This story was plastered everywhere for more than a week. It was pretty
hard to miss, but I'm impressed that you did! :-) It is good to get
away from it all now and then.

Matt

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 06:59 PM

wrote:

> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
>>for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
>>sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
>>
>
>
> I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've ever heard of
> anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm sure there's a
> couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in our general
> area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of exposure deaths
> were when people left a protective shelter.

No, I'm from northern PA. Around here we have about as many people die
from CO in their car than from leaving and hiking out. Granted, we have
few places as remote as the mountains of the west, however, we do have
many places where you can be 20 miles from civilization. Just look at
the Detroit sectional in and around Bradford PA.

Matt

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 07:00 PM

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

> On 10 Dec 2006 08:35:07 -0800, wrote:
>
>
>>Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>>>I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
>>>for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
>>>sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
>>
>>I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've ever heard of
>>anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm sure there's a
>>couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in our general
>>area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of exposure deaths
>>were when people left a protective shelter.
>
>
> Seattle-area news last night said that this was not the first death due to a car
> getting stuck on the same stretch of road. Another happened about twenty,
> twenty-five years ago. The driver stayed with the vehicle. He kept a diary, it
> ended after about sixty days. Death due to starvation.

I just can't imagine sitting in a car for 60 days starving to death.
I'd be on the road after a couple of says most likely, certainly after a
week I'd be outta there. I'd rather die quickly from exposure than from
starvation.

Matt

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 07:19 PM

Jim Macklin wrote:

> You don't starve in six days. You can run out of water, but
> cold exposure is more likely. Was anybody looking for the
> person you spoke about?

What part of sixty didn't you understand? :-)

Matt

John Ousterhout

December 10th 06, 08:25 PM

As pilots we should all be aware of the danger of Get-there-itis.

It appears that Get-there-itis caused Kim to keep going long past the
point where he should have turned back. Regardless of what he saw on the
map or other navigation device the road and weather conditions were
shouting "TURN BACK". Yet as conditions worsened he passed up several
opportunities to turn back.

James Kim's poor judgment to not turn back was the probable cause of
this tragedy.

- John Ousterhout -

john smith wrote:
> Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
> area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
> provoking questions for aviators.
> In years past, this forum has carried several threads on surviving a
> crash in a remote area. I behooves us all to review our personal
> preparations for off airport landings in areas over which we will be
> flying.

Ron Lee

December 10th 06, 08:29 PM

>You don't need giant muk luks. A good hiking boot would have been a
>tremendous asset. Hunting boots would have been better yet and snow
>boots the best, With tennis shoes his feet were frozen 10 minutes after
>he left the car. Any hat that covers the ears would have been a huge
>difference. Any mittens or gloves likewise. To drive into the
>mountains without those was reckless. To leave the car without those
>was a death sentence.

I just started trying to ID the road he was one and the one thing I
noted was that I-5 was nearby. Why would he leave I-5 except in a
city/town setting?

Ron Lee

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 08:46 PM

Five miles on a deserted road and you can die. Rumor has it
that the mob does hits in the winter near Chicago, by
forcing the victim to drive their own car into the country
and run into a ditch, then try to shovel it out. Then they
leave them with just city street clothes.

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| wrote:
|
| > Matt Whiting wrote:
| >
| >>I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I
could follow it
| >>for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die
trying than die
| >>sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
| >>
| >
| >
| > I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've
ever heard of
| > anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm
sure there's a
| > couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in
our general
| > area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of
exposure deaths
| > were when people left a protective shelter.
|
| No, I'm from northern PA. Around here we have about as
many people die
| from CO in their car than from leaving and hiking out.
Granted, we have
| few places as remote as the mountains of the west,
however, we do have
| many places where you can be 20 miles from civilization.
Just look at
| the Detroit sectional in and around Bradford PA.
|
| Matt

Jim Macklin

December 10th 06, 08:48 PM

Another poster said six. Sixty days, yes, you can starve.
But that sounds more like a suicide by cold. Nobody was
looking for a car on a road for two months...???

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| > You don't starve in six days. You can run out of water,
but
| > cold exposure is more likely. Was anybody looking for
the
| > person you spoke about?
|
| What part of sixty didn't you understand? :-)
|
|
| Matt

Ron Wanttaja

December 10th 06, 08:57 PM

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:29:50 GMT, (Ron Lee) wrote:

>>You don't need giant muk luks. A good hiking boot would have been a
>>tremendous asset. Hunting boots would have been better yet and snow
>>boots the best, With tennis shoes his feet were frozen 10 minutes after
>>he left the car. Any hat that covers the ears would have been a huge
>>difference. Any mittens or gloves likewise. To drive into the
>>mountains without those was reckless. To leave the car without those
>>was a death sentence.
>
>I just started trying to ID the road he was one and the one thing I
>noted was that I-5 was nearby. Why would he leave I-5 except in a
>city/town setting?

Paper said they'd missed their exit to the road going to the coast and left I-5
thinking they'd found an alternate route.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:25:44 GMT, in rec.aviation.piloting John Ousterhout
wrote:

] It appears that Get-there-itis caused Kim to keep going long past the
] point where he should have turned back. Regardless of what he saw on the
] map or other navigation device the road and weather conditions were
] shouting "TURN BACK". Yet as conditions worsened he passed up several
] opportunities to turn back.
]
] James Kim's poor judgment to not turn back was the probable cause of
] this tragedy.

Another factor was the unknown vandal who cut off the lock and opened the gate
to a road normally closed during the winter.

Ron Wanttaja

Matt Whiting

December 10th 06, 09:01 PM

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Another poster said six. Sixty days, yes, you can starve.
> But that sounds more like a suicide by cold. Nobody was
> looking for a car on a road for two months...???

Must be my newsserver didn't pick that one up as all I read said sixty.
Yes, it is hard to imagine anyone other than a complete recluse not
being missed for two months.

Matt

Mxsmanic

December 10th 06, 09:12 PM

Ron Lee writes:

> I just started trying to ID the road he was one and the one thing I
> noted was that I-5 was nearby. Why would he leave I-5 except in a
> city/town setting?

Originally I read that he was trying to find a shortcut.

See

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=siskyou&sll=42.439167,-123.327222&sspn=0.125545,0.271912&ie=UTF8&z=16&ll=42.574858,-123.748906&spn=0.015659,0.027809&om=1

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[email protected]

December 10th 06, 09:19 PM

Newps wrote:
> wrote:
>
>
> > Unless you're into reality TV, television is just terrible.
>
>
> Military channel, History, Discovery, Discovery Times, TLC. There's a
> lot of great TV out there.

Used to be. Those channels are good for awhile, but then they start
repeating. Besides, TLC has turned into the freak show / biker build
off network. Discovery has non-stop coverage of sharks and/or dinos,
but even that gets boring after awhile. History is good, but there's
only so much I can take about Romans and Nazis. Military channel is
repeat central, and they got rid of most of the good GA content.

I don't regret ditching cable. Reading is far more interesting, and
I've had plenty to read lately anyway (just got the IA, now working on
the commercial and CFI).

[email protected]

December 10th 06, 09:23 PM

James Robinson wrote:
>
> About 12 years ago, a person named Dewitt Finley drove into the same area
> in his camper, and got stuck in snow. He stayed with the truck, and they
> found him next spring. He had kept a diary, meticulously noting the
> passing days, and anticipating rescue. He starved to death after about 2
> month's wait.
>
> The irony was that he got stuck only a few hundred feet from an open road
> that he could have easily walked along to safety, but he apparantly never
> left the truck to look around.

Ok. So there's one case. I did say there's probably been a couple of
cases. This once incident you cite doesn't make leaving the
car/airplane a good idea. If anything, I think it strengthens the
advice to stay with the car... The guy lived for 60 days!! Almost
amazing that he wasn't found in that time.

[email protected]

December 10th 06, 09:28 PM

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> I have only what I get with rabbit ears (two local channels and a very
> snowy Fox channel), however, I do check MSNBC and CNN on the internet.
> This story was plastered everywhere for more than a week. It was pretty
> hard to miss, but I'm impressed that you did! :-) It is good to get
> away from it all now and then.
>
> Matt

I've got a good excuse! I had my IA checkride last weekend, so I was a
little preoccupied up through that time period.

Jim Logajan

December 10th 06, 09:59 PM

john smith > wrote:
> Mr Kim's death resulting from his decision to attempt to walk out of an
> area he was unfamiliar with after becoming stranded, raises some thought
> provoking questions for aviators.

There is nothing unique about Kim's death - nor much to learn, IMHO. At the
same time the Kim tragedy was playing out, another Oregon wilderness
tragedy occurred when a father and son went for a 6-hour snowmobiling trip
and got caught out in the wilderness. But when searchers finally found
them, the father had died.[1] When they were first reported missing their
family reported that the "two were described as well-equipped and
knowledgeable about survival in the mountains ... were reported to be
equipped with cell phones and multifrequency radios ... the two had been
snowmobiling in the area for years."

By the way, it looks like the Kim family tragedy has gotten an entry in
Wikipedia.[3]

[1] http://www.bendweekly.com/Local-News/1317.html
[2] http://www.examiner.com/a-424637~Two_Bend_snowmobilers_missing_near_Mount_Ba chelor.html
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim

Peter Dohm

December 11th 06, 12:41 AM

> > With respect to the clothing issues, it is true that they were
> > underequipped. However, having shopped for cold weather gear in an area
> > that doesn't receive cold weather, I am inclined to judge less harshly.
> > Those boots that were supposed to be the cat's pajamas can be annoying,
> > since you can't walk around outside as far as you planned, and the rest
of
> > the outerwear that you used incorrectly may cause you to "catch your
death";
> > but a bottle of wine and a long soak in the hot tub will probably cure
all
> > that ails you. OTOH, in the wilderness, a lot of incorrectly
recommended
> > clothing (or simply inexperience) is a severe handicap!
>
>
> You don't need giant muk luks. A good hiking boot would have been a
> tremendous asset. Hunting boots would have been better yet and snow
> boots the best, With tennis shoes his feet were frozen 10 minutes after
> he left the car. Any hat that covers the ears would have been a huge
> difference. Any mittens or gloves likewise. To drive into the
> mountains without those was reckless. To leave the car without those
> was a death sentence.

I really don't know how stores are where the Kims lived, but in southeastern
Florida you can find a good deal of cold weather gear stocked for
recreational hunters and skiers. A lot of it is excellent for a particular
purpose--but far less versatile than a novice would suppose.

The problem is that you can find about as much missinformation as
information about what you might need, under what conditions, and why. For
example, by walking out into a drizzle, I earned that my highly prized down
parka (unlike holofill) wouldn't insulate when damp--I merely had to go back
indoors, so it was only an annoyance. I've learned a little more since
then, mostly to ask more questions of more people.

However, there are two main points that I feel compelled to make:
1) Most of us have made mistakes, which could easily have killed us, and
instead received the opportunity to learn. Mr. Kim's first mistake (or
series of mistakes) appears to have been his last.
2) Simply trying to be prepared is no guarantee of being prepared, and
even being prepared is no guarantee of success. Or in fewer words: "Stuff
Happens".

Peter

john smith

December 11th 06, 12:54 AM

I drove my family across Bear Camp Road in August of 2000. There was
still snow in the shadows on the north faces of some of the slopes.
I was driving from Medford to Gold Beach (east to west). I had only an
Oregon State Highway map for navigation. The map indicated it was a
state highway. In Ohio, a state highway means a two-lane paved road.
Leaving I-5 and driving west, the road is two-lane paved asphalt, the
ascent is shallow and the curves are wide. The farther east you drive
from I-5, the more steep the ascent and sharper the curves become. At
some point it becomes a one-lane gravel road with turnouts every couple
of miles to allow vehicles to pass. The farther west you drive from I-5,
the slower your speed becomes. Within an hour of I-5, my speed was down
to 15 mph, max. The road is not straight. It twists and curves. My wife
was making comments like, "Oh look at that!" And couldn't for fear of
going off the road.
The area between the east and west gates gets washed out/slides away and
has to be rebuilt each Spring.
You look at the map and say, "Bear Camp Road is only 50 miles across the
mountains. If I stay on Highway 199, I have to drive south to Cresent
City California, then north on Highway 101. That is longer and will take
more time."
It took me 4-and-a-half hours to drive from Medford to Gold Beach. The
locals all drive the Cresent City route.

Ron Lee wrote:

>I just started trying to ID the road he was one and the one thing I
>noted was that I-5 was nearby. Why would he leave I-5 except in a
>city/town setting?
>
>

John Ousterhout

December 11th 06, 01:18 AM

I am looking at an Official Oregon State Highway Map (ODOT, 2003)

That road is labeled "This route closed in Winter".

There is no highway marker or number of any kind on that road. The map
legend clearly shows Interstate Highway, US Highway and State Highway
markers.

The map legend does indicate that it is a "paved road", following in
order "Interstate Highway", "Divided Highway", "Other Highway", and
above only "gravel road".

I also Have a Rand McNally Road Atlas, 2002. It has similar information.

- John Ousterhout -

john smith wrote:
> I drove my family across Bear Camp Road in August of 2000. There was
> still snow in the shadows on the north faces of some of the slopes.
> I was driving from Medford to Gold Beach (east to west). I had only an
> Oregon State Highway map for navigation. The map indicated it was a
> state highway. In Ohio, a state highway means a two-lane paved road.
> Leaving I-5 and driving west, the road is two-lane paved asphalt, the
> ascent is shallow and the curves are wide. The farther east you drive
> from I-5, the more steep the ascent and sharper the curves become. At
> some point it becomes a one-lane gravel road with turnouts every couple
> of miles to allow vehicles to pass. The farther west you drive from I-5,
> the slower your speed becomes. Within an hour of I-5, my speed was down
> to 15 mph, max. The road is not straight. It twists and curves. My wife
> was making comments like, "Oh look at that!" And couldn't for fear of
> going off the road.
> The area between the east and west gates gets washed out/slides away and
> has to be rebuilt each Spring.
> You look at the map and say, "Bear Camp Road is only 50 miles across the
> mountains. If I stay on Highway 199, I have to drive south to Cresent
> City California, then north on Highway 101. That is longer and will take
> more time."
> It took me 4-and-a-half hours to drive from Medford to Gold Beach. The
> locals all drive the Cresent City route.
>
> Ron Lee wrote:
>
>> I just started trying to ID the road he was one and the one thing I
>> noted was that I-5 was nearby. Why would he leave I-5 except in a
>> city/town setting?
>>
>>
>

Morgans[_2_]

December 11th 06, 01:40 AM

> wrote

> Ok. So there's one case. I did say there's probably been a couple of
> cases. This once incident you cite doesn't make leaving the
> car/airplane a good idea. If anything, I think it strengthens the
> advice to stay with the car... The guy lived for 60 days!! Almost
> amazing that he wasn't found in that time.

But nobody ever said to not get out of the car. The point was to not leave the
protection of the car, for a walk out. I would think that you should be out
making markings with branches for air visibility. Get some gas and some pine,
and the battery or something for a point of ignition to start a quick signal
fire. A small hike on nice days to see what is around you, and what might be
used to increase survival chances, such as food, water, roads, houses, wire
right-of-ways.
--
Jim in NC

john smith

December 11th 06, 03:36 AM

Bear with me, John... I am going from memory. I no longer have the map I
used. I do know there was no labeling about the road on the map I used.

John Ousterhout wrote:

> I am looking at an Official Oregon State Highway Map (ODOT, 2003)
>
> That road is labeled "This route closed in Winter".
>
> There is no highway marker or number of any kind on that road. The map
> legend clearly shows Interstate Highway, US Highway and State Highway
> markers.
>
> The map legend does indicate that it is a "paved road", following in
> order "Interstate Highway", "Divided Highway", "Other Highway", and
> above only "gravel road".
>
> I also Have a Rand McNally Road Atlas, 2002. It has similar information.
>
> - John Ousterhout -
>
>
>
> john smith wrote:
>
>> I drove my family across Bear Camp Road in August of 2000. There was
>> still snow in the shadows on the north faces of some of the slopes.
>> I was driving from Medford to Gold Beach (east to west). I had only
>> an Oregon State Highway map for navigation. The map indicated it was
>> a state highway. In Ohio, a state highway means a two-lane paved
>> road. Leaving I-5 and driving west, the road is two-lane paved
>> asphalt, the ascent is shallow and the curves are wide. The farther
>> east you drive from I-5, the more steep the ascent and sharper the
>> curves become. At some point it becomes a one-lane gravel road with
>> turnouts every couple of miles to allow vehicles to pass. The farther
>> west you drive from I-5, the slower your speed becomes. Within an
>> hour of I-5, my speed was down to 15 mph, max. The road is not
>> straight. It twists and curves. My wife was making comments like, "Oh
>> look at that!" And couldn't for fear of going off the road.
>> The area between the east and west gates gets washed out/slides away
>> and has to be rebuilt each Spring.
>> You look at the map and say, "Bear Camp Road is only 50 miles across
>> the mountains. If I stay on Highway 199, I have to drive south to
>> Cresent City California, then north on Highway 101. That is longer
>> and will take more time."
>> It took me 4-and-a-half hours to drive from Medford to Gold Beach.
>> The locals all drive the Cresent City route.
>>
>> Ron Lee wrote:
>>
>>> I just started trying to ID the road he was one and the one thing I
>>> noted was that I-5 was nearby. Why would he leave I-5 except in a
>>> city/town setting?
>>>
>>>
>>

M[_1_]

December 11th 06, 04:19 AM

Ron Lee wrote:

> I just started trying to ID the road he was one and the one thing I
> noted was that I-5 was nearby. Why would he leave I-5 except in a
> city/town setting?
>

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/710691/Main/707603

Click on "View in Google Map"

Ron Lee

December 11th 06, 05:02 AM

"Peter Dohm" > wrote:

>2) Simply trying to be prepared is no guarantee of being prepared, and
>even being prepared is no guarantee of success. Or in fewer words: "Stuff
>Happens".
>
>Peter

However, if the weather wa cold and snowy the way he was dressed and
left the vehicle was certain death unless found very quickly.

Ron Lee

Ron Lee

December 11th 06, 04:16 PM

>Ron Lee wrote:
>
>> I just started trying to ID the road he was one and the one thing I
>> noted was that I-5 was nearby. Why would he leave I-5 except in a
>> city/town setting?
>>

>http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/710691/Main/707603
>
>Click on "View in Google Map"
>
Thanks. That answered a lot of questions along with knowing that they
wanted to get to the Oregon coast. What I still do not understand is
how good a road 23 is. From my mapping software, it looks like 42
(primary) then 199 (backup) are the only possible winter routes from
I-5 to the coast. Assumes that they are open in the winter of course.
23 does not appear to be a significant road.

It appears that they were on a road that should have raised a red flag
for a long time before becoming stuck. As far as they drove on the
BLM road chances are remote that Kim could have walked back to
civilization even if 23 was well travelled.

Ron Lee

Al G[_1_]

December 11th 06, 07:02 PM

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Newps > wrote:
>
>> Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other outcome.
>
> Sure there could have!
> He walked the wrong way.
> One mile in the opposite direction was a stocked fishing lodge,
> according to the reports I have been reading.

Well, it might have been 1 mile by GPS, but you can't get there from here.

Also, I may be wrong, but as I remember, Black Bar Lodge is on the South
side of the Rogue river, and Kim was on the north side. No way you're going
to cross this time of year. Black Bar is the last "outpost"(i.e. open to the
public) at the top of the wild and scenic section of the Rogue. For 14 years
I flew Walter Haas in and out of his place at Winkle Bar, Zane Grey's old
cabin, and the next lodge down from Black Bar. We used a turbo C-206 w/ a
Robertson kit to access the beautifully mowed 500' of grass next to the
cabins, on a bend in the river. 2 feet short, or 3 feet long, and you were
in the water. The Calvert Peak airstrip is at 3800msl(1600' long), and is
just Northwest of where these folks were found. The general terrain around
there goes from 5298' @ Brandy Peak, on the South side, down to 500' at the
rivers edge, and back up to Mt. Boliver @ 4319' on the North side. Many
peaks on both side are in the 4000' range.This time of year, it is not
uncommon for a low overcast to lay in between snow showers, and remain for
weeks. Even if you could get to the top of a hill, you couldn't see
anything.
I live about 30nm north of this area, and can tell you it is very
vertical, shadows at high noon and all that. He probably walked closer to 15
or 20 miles, winding around the mountain getting down to a spot a mile or so
below his car.
Last year a guy in a motor home did the same thing, and he was up there
with his kids for 3 weeks to a month, before someone spotted him from the
air. In that case everyone got out. They had a lot of provisions.
The pilot that found them is a student of mine. Well, I flew with him
for his private training almost thirty years ago. He is a very level head,
and not easily excitable. I believe he was commuting from his ranch in
Agness, at the junction of the Rogue and Illinois Rivers.

Al G

Al G[_1_]

December 11th 06, 07:31 PM

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> You don't starve in six days. You can run out of water, but
> cold exposure is more likely. Was anybody looking for the
> person you spoke about?
>
>
60 days. And, yes looking the whole time. Found them in the spring.

Al G

James Robinson

December 11th 06, 07:55 PM

"Al G" > wrote:
>
> "john smith" > wrote
>>
>> Newps > wrote:
>>
>>> Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other
>>> outcome.
>>
>> Sure there could have!
>> He walked the wrong way.
>> One mile in the opposite direction was a stocked fishing lodge,
>> according to the reports I have been reading.
>
> Well, it might have been 1 mile by GPS, but you can't get there from
> here.
>
> Also, I may be wrong, but as I remember, Black Bar Lodge is on the
> South side of the Rogue river, and Kim was on the north side.

Black Bar Lodge is on the north side of the river.

Here is a link to a map containing the latest information I've seen on
the subject:

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/710691/Main/707603

Note that early information had the car at the junction of the road to
Black Bar Lodge. This information was corrected, and the place they were
stuck was about 6 miles farther up the road, as shown on the map in the
link. Therefore, Kim was more than a mile from the car when he was
found, and Black Bar Lodge was about 7 miles from where they were stuck.

gatt

December 11th 06, 08:50 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yes, all are things that should have been done. However, I still am not
> convinced that the blanket advice to stay with the vehicle is correct.
> With proper clothing (not tennis shoes), I can easily walk 10 miles a day
> in pretty rough terrain

The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children even
though she was probably starved herself. Mr. Kim was likely already
physiologically compromised; if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
was probably the one removing the tires and working outside. If so, he may
have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia when he made the
decision to walk, and again when he left the road.

Meanwhile, at this very moment, there are search and rescue people trying to
evacuate climbers from MT. HOOD IN FREAKIN' DECEMBER.

One of the roads to the mountain just reopened having been washed out by the
winter storms, and the wind coming out of the east has been such that I
haven't even bothered trying to fly on the sunny days...too damned windy to
practice those power-off precision landings. One can only wonder about
-those- hikers. "Worst string of weather we've had in over a year; most
turbulent, cold and deadly winter conditions. I know...let's CLIMB A
MOUNTAIN. If we get hurt, why, somebody will surely risk their asses to
come bail us out. Their families will be -so- excited if those helicopter
crews come home alive..."

-c

gatt

December 11th 06, 08:52 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...

>> For sure, I'd have walked down the road.
>
> Until you became delirious from hypothermia... At that point, you don't
> know what you might do.

Search and rescue crews mentioned the hypothermic paradox where, when people
start really losing it to the cold, they paradoxically start shedding their
clothing...

-c

Al G[_1_]

December 11th 06, 10:04 PM

"Al G" > wrote in message
...
>
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> Newps > wrote:
>>
>>> Tennis shoes, no hat or gloves. There could have been no other outcome.
>>
>> Sure there could have!
>> He walked the wrong way.
>> One mile in the opposite direction was a stocked fishing lodge,
>> according to the reports I have been reading.
>
>
> Well, it might have been 1 mile by GPS, but you can't get there from here.
>
> Also, I may be wrong, but as I remember, Black Bar Lodge is on the South
> side of the Rogue river, and Kim was on the north side. No way you're
> going to cross this time of year. Black Bar is the last "outpost"(i.e.
> open to the public) at the top of the wild and scenic section of the
> Rogue. For 14 years I flew Walter Haas in and out of his place at Winkle
> Bar, Zane Grey's old cabin, and the next lodge down from Black Bar. We
> used a turbo C-206 w/ a Robertson kit to access the beautifully mowed 500'
> of grass next to the cabins, on a bend in the river. 2 feet short, or 3
> feet long, and you were in the water. The Calvert Peak airstrip is at
> 3800msl(1600' long), and is just Northwest of where these folks were
> found. The general terrain around there goes from 5298' @ Brandy Peak, on
> the South side, down to 500' at the rivers edge, and back up to Mt.
> Boliver @ 4319' on the North side. Many peaks on both side are in the
> 4000' range.This time of year, it is not uncommon for a low overcast to
> lay in between snow showers, and remain for weeks. Even if you could get
> to the top of a hill, you couldn't see anything.
> I live about 30nm north of this area, and can tell you it is very
> vertical, shadows at high noon and all that. He probably walked closer to
> 15 or 20 miles, winding around the mountain getting down to a spot a mile
> or so below his car.
> Last year a guy in a motor home did the same thing, and he was up there
> with his kids for 3 weeks to a month, before someone spotted him from the
> air. In that case everyone got out. They had a lot of provisions.
> The pilot that found them is a student of mine. Well, I flew with him
> for his private training almost thirty years ago. He is a very level head,
> and not easily excitable. I believe he was commuting from his ranch in
> Agness, at the junction of the Rogue and Illinois Rivers.
>
> Al G
>

My apologies, I just got a look at a desent map, it looks like they were
on the south side of the river, on the same side as Black Bar. This is steep
terrain indeed.

Al G

Mxsmanic

December 12th 06, 12:41 AM

gatt writes:

> The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children even
> though she was probably starved herself.

Nobody was anywhere close to starvation after only a week.
Dehydration is the only risk over such a short period, and if they
could melt snow, that was taken care of.

> Mr. Kim was likely already physiologically compromised ...

Not by any lack of food.

> ... if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
> was probably the one removing the tires and working outside.

The children don't require continuous attention.

> If so, he may have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia
> when he made the decision to walk, and again when he left the road.

I doubt that. He probably simply decided after a week that there were
no search crews looking, or that there was no way of knowing when they
would find them, so in desperation he decided to go outside and look
for help. The decision was not unreasonable; he was just unlucky.
There was a lot working against him, but once they were stuck that
couldn't be changed.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Peter Dohm

December 12th 06, 12:46 AM

> Meanwhile, at this very moment, there are search and rescue people trying
to
> evacuate climbers from MT. HOOD IN FREAKIN' DECEMBER.
>
> One of the roads to the mountain just reopened having been washed out by
the
> winter storms, and the wind coming out of the east has been such that I
> haven't even bothered trying to fly on the sunny days...too damned windy
to
> practice those power-off precision landings. One can only wonder about
> -those- hikers. "Worst string of weather we've had in over a year; most
> turbulent, cold and deadly winter conditions. I know...let's CLIMB A
> MOUNTAIN. If we get hurt, why, somebody will surely risk their asses to
> come bail us out. Their families will be -so- excited if those helicopter
> crews come home alive..."
>
This has been a major irritant to me for a long time, and I suspect that
dramatic rescues as 'reality tv" may help to fuel the problem. However, it
all comes back to policy decisions...

Peter
Annoyance keeps me alive and healthy;
my blood pressure doesn't ebb away!

Peter Dohm

December 12th 06, 12:57 AM

> > The mother should be heralded for her heroism by feeding the children
even
> > though she was probably starved herself.
>
> Nobody was anywhere close to starvation after only a week.
> Dehydration is the only risk over such a short period, and if they
> could melt snow, that was taken care of.
>
> > Mr. Kim was likely already physiologically compromised ...
>
> Not by any lack of food.
>
> > ... if Mrs. Kim was taking care of the children, he
> > was probably the one removing the tires and working outside.
>
> The children don't require continuous attention.
>
> > If so, he may have been close to physical exhaustion and hypothermia
> > when he made the decision to walk, and again when he left the road.
>
> I doubt that. He probably simply decided after a week that there were
> no search crews looking, or that there was no way of knowing when they
> would find them, so in desperation he decided to go outside and look
> for help. The decision was not unreasonable; he was just unlucky.
> There was a lot working against him, but once they were stuck that
> couldn't be changed.
>
> --
Move your sim, and a large fan, into the nearest freezer. It you give you a
new perspective!

Peter

Atalanta Beauregard

December 12th 06, 02:11 AM

wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
> >
> > I know that is the standard advice, but I'm not sure I could follow it
> > for more than a day or two. Personally, I'd rather die trying than die
> > sitting waiting on someone who may never come.
> >
>
> I know what you're saying Matt, but I don't think I've ever heard of
> anybody dying in their car when they got stuck. I'm sure there's a
> couple of cases, but from all the stories I've heard in our general
> area (you're in Montrose right?) the vast majority of exposure deaths
> were when people left a protective shelter.

There are a few of these deaths every winter, from somewhere in the
West. Last winter's most memorable was a guy who was only about 100
yards from a working payphone and a trailmarker - with instructions on
how to get help. He died of thirst and hypothermia. Can't remember
which range of mountains. He wrote in his journal, IIRC - but
apparently never got out of the car * at all * - took about three days!

But, I was wondering about this very same issue. Given that it snowed
the first night, then rained for 3 days (Mrs. Kim's account) - and that
they had water, if not food - just how cold do you think it was inside
that car each night?

I'm thinking they had no blankets or insulation of any kind - he
obviously had a few pieces of clothing and was probably wearing all of
them.

How long would it have taken for them all to die of starvation,
hypothermia, etc., you think?

A.