Night Flying. How many PPSEL pilots excersie night priveledges?

[[email protected]]

I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
my training as required for certification.

I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
the city lights that night flying offers.

How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?

Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
safely from getting too close to anything?

I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
night flying.

[Kyle Boatright]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
> my training as required for certification.
>
> I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
> the city lights that night flying offers.
>
> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
> Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
> navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?
>
> Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
> safely from getting too close to anything?
>
> I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
> but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
> at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
> night flying.

Most of my night flying is at the end of a trip where the schedule didn't
allow us to get home before dark.

At night, I tend to fly higher. That gives me more options if the engine
quits for whatever reason. Also, it keeps me farther above various towers,
which don't *always* have operating lights.

I don't find navigation to be a big problem - major roads, towns, and major
landmarks are still visible. Even better, the GPS doesn't know it is dark.

That said, I don't fly at night particularly often. While it can be
beautiful on a clear night, I rarely go sightseeing at night, because it
makes for a long day. Also, in the winter, it can be cold here.

KB

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
> my training as required for certification.
>
> I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
> the city lights that night flying offers.
>
> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
> Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
> navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?
>
> Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
> safely from getting too close to anything?
>
> I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
> but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
> at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
> night flying.
>

Back in the olden days, when I was an active pilot, I used to love to go up
at night and sight-see. I don't recall much night cross country work though.

I would suggest just going up and spending some time in the pattern so you
get used to landing at night and you get a good idea what the airport looks
like at night. Land without hte landing light a few times to get used to
that too - they do burn out, you know. Follow up with some very local
flights (right over the airport if airspace permits) so you get the bigger
picture. It is a lot easier to get lost since most landmarks look different
(the airport will be thaqt big dark area). If push comes to shove, you can
always use a GPS,VOR's, or vectors from ATC (assuming your battery doesn't
go flat) to find your way back the first few times - but you wouldn't want
to become dependant on that kind of stuff. After a few local flights, you
will get the picture and be a lot more proficient at finding landmarks
(cities, highways) and navigating. (start out in clear weather, of course)

And, as you suggest, there is nothing wrong with dragging an instuctor or a
more experienced pilot (doesn't _have_ to be an insructor, right?) along for
the ride.

Night time can be fun. It's surprising how you can pick out the glow from
cities a long ways away on a clear night. But there is increased risk
because it is easier to get lost and the chance that you will pick a less
than suitable landing spot if the engine decides to stop making noise is
much higher.

Also, I would assume that whatever you are flying has enough alternator to
keep up with all the lights/radio's - but double check. The generator that
had been added to the C-120 I used to fly wouldn't keep up with the landing
light, so if you left it on, you would eventually run out of juice.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Tony]

The only way you're going to be comfortable flyig at night is to fly at
night.

Do touch and goes. Go out 10 miles and return, then 20, then out of
sight of the airport.

Navigate navigate, navigate. On your daytime flights navigate by
instruments, take small steps but be sure you know where you are and
where you're going.

Do stay high longer: descending at night can be tricky, especially if
there's no clear horizon. Eve though you're VFR, believe your
instruments, NOT outside reference, with respect to wings level.

Keep turns modest -- half standard rate is a good maximum. You want to
do nothing that will induce an unintentional unusual attitude.

Get your instructor to induce vertigo, under the hood, so that you
understand without a doubt that your inner ear is not to be trusted.

On a XC, even more than during the day, do a 180 if everything doesn't
look and feel exactly right.

Now, all of that sounds frightening and I don't mean for it to be.
There's usually much less traffic at night, the air is usually
smoother, and sometimes it's magical. There's more -- when you taxi in
between the blue lights, you're going to feel like a complete pilot.

Having said all of that, I can say I did very little VFR at night, but
a ton of IFR in SEL. I just checked my logbook and found about 24% of
my total time is logged as night. Most often I had business meetings
that ran late, and my next stop was 3 hours away: it adds up.



Good luck!



On Dec 9, 1:40 pm, wrote:
> I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
> my training as required for certification.
>
> I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
> the city lights that night flying offers.
>
> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
> Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
> navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?
>
> Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
> safely from getting too close to anything?
>
> I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
> but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
> at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
> night flying.

[john smith]

As with everything else, it depends.
As you get older, you get smarter (or more scared).
Flying at night reduces your options.
Mostly, it depends upon what it going to be beneath you (mountains,
water, flat land, swamps, etc)
You cannot see weather ahead of you, unless it is lightning.
There is often less traffic chatter on the frequency (sometimes it gets
so quiet you have to ask for a radio check to make certain your
equipment is still working).
Trying to find the rotating beacon in a congested urban area can be
challenging.
The air can often be calm because of lack of ground heating and
thermals, making for a smooth flight.
In areas where there is little ground lighting, you better know how to
flying on instruments. I have flown in mountainous areas where the
ground lighting was so sparse, the ground blended with the stars in the
night sky.
I have been flying for 26 years. I have flown one night cross country in
the past 10 years. VFR condtions, over mountainous/wooded/sparsely
populated terrain. It is something I will only do if all the conditions
are highly favorable.
The last night cross country I did last Spring was an IFR, KPBI/West
Palm Beach FL to KLEX/Lexington KY. Conditions were CAVU and I had 40kt
tailwinds which reduced my exposure time over the more hazardous
portions of the route.

wrote:

>I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
>my training as required for certification.
>
>I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
>the city lights that night flying offers.
>
>How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
>you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
>Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
>navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?
>
>Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
>safely from getting too close to anything?
>
>I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
>but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
>at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
>night flying.
>
>
>

[Bob Fry]

Night flying is good flying, and in the Bay Area it's fantastic (I fly
out of University Airport near Sacramento). More than once I've flown
over the Bay with a full moon and wished I had high-speed b&w film in
an SLR to capture the view.

Consider buying an LED headlamp in addition to a more traditional
flashlight. I find the headlamp great for preflight inspection,
cockpit arranging before starting, and postflight matters.

Start by waiting for good weather and a forecast of good weather
through the evening--no storms or fog. Pay particular attention to
the temp/dew point spread. Start doing takeoffs and full stop
landings before it gets dark, and continue until it is fully dark or
you're tired or uncomfortable. Bring an experienced pilot or
instructor as pax if you are not at all comfortable starting this way.
That's enough for one outing.

Do this again within a week or two. This time you should be more at
ease, though perhaps not fully so. That's OK. Do a short night hop
to a nearby airport that you have done many times in the daytime, for
instance, San Carlos to Palo Alto or Reid-Hillview. Bring a GPS that
you know completely how to use, it can really help at night. Don't
let some weenie tell you that real pilots don't depend on GPS. You
don't want to depend on it, but you do want it as a help.

Once you've flown to 2 or 3 airports in the Bay Area at night, pick an
airport outside the Bay Area, let's say Sacramento Executive. Fly
there once in the day if you haven't done so before. Be damn sure you
have a waypoint or two that is easy to spot and that you know what
altitude you must be at to avoid the BA hills. You might fly there in
the late afternoon, get dinner in the restaurant there, then fly back
at night. That gives you a goal and a feeling of accomplishment. Use
NorCal approach and ask for flight following.

Half Moon Bay is another nice destination. The winter is good to fly
there 'cause the coast doesn't have so much fog. Auburn in the
foothills is good too, it has a good cafe (check the closing time).

Northern California is an amazing place to fly, day *and* night. Good
on you for wanting to become better at night flying. So many pilots
avoid exploring their personal envelope...they're missing a lot of
great flying.
--
No great intellectual thing was ever done by great effort.
Theodore Roosevelt

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Bob Fry >
wrote:

> Start by waiting for good weather and a forecast of good weather
> through the evening--no storms or fog.

a full moon is a bonus for night flying.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[FLAV8R]

> wrote in message ...
> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
> Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
> navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?
>

I have had the same question about scuba diving and flying at night from
those that think that diving at night brings out the really big man-eaters.

I have never hesitated to fly or dive at night, I find that both diving and
flying have some incredibly beautiful sights that can only be seen at night.
Most of my flying has been in the state of Florida where I don't really
have to worry about bumping into a mountain, but I do have to be more
aware of my surroundings.
I study the charts a little more carefully for height clearances of towers
and other such objects that stick up into the sky.
But the reality is that if you are flying on a clear night and you dim your
interior lights as much as possible, I think you'll find that you can many
times spot other planes quicker at night because of the navigation lights.

Most major roads are easier to follow at night because they really stick
out with all the car lights and lanes.
There are however parts of Florida that you should be on instruments
to fly over at night because of the inability to distinguish ground from
sky, for example the Everglades while flying south to the Florida Keys.

Given the option, I much rather fly at night than during the day.
But that of course is in Florida, I don't know if I would feel that
way in lets say Colorado or someplace really mountainous with
very few lights to shine the way.

David

[Blanche]

> wrote in message ...
>Given the option, I much rather fly at night than during the day.
>But that of course is in Florida, I don't know if I would feel that
>way in lets say Colorado or someplace really mountainous with
>very few lights to shine the way.

David, et al:

Don't forget that 50% of Colorado is *not* mountains. In fact, from
Golden east is what we affectionately call "West Kansas".
You can follow I-25 from the Wyoming border down to the New Mexico
border and with the exception of the segment between RTN and TAD,
pretty much fly at 9500 the entire way. Actually, lower most of
the time, but COS is in the way at 6200 ft. And going east, you
can do 7500 and keep going downhill the entire time.

It's going west that gets interesting. Rule of thumb out here
is that the only single engine, night, (and IFR if you wish)
in/over the mountains better be in an F-16 (yes, they do
frequently) or a Pilatus.

[Dave[_3_]]

LOVE IT!

Severe clear after a snow fall, lights reflecting off the snow with a
full moon..

You get the picture... :)

But... know where you are ALL the time, be ready to get on the
instruments at anytime....

Dave



On 9 Dec 2006 10:40:50 -0800, wrote:

>I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
>my training as required for certification.
>
>I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
>the city lights that night flying offers.
>
>How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
>you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
>Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
>navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?
>
>Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
>safely from getting too close to anything?
>
>I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
>but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
>at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
>night flying.

[FLAV8R]

"Blanche" > wrote in message ...
> > wrote in message ...
>>Given the option, I much rather fly at night than during the day.
>>But that of course is in Florida, I don't know if I would feel that
>>way in lets say Colorado or someplace really mountainous with
>>very few lights to shine the way.
>
> David, et al:
>
> Don't forget that 50% of Colorado is *not* mountains. In fact, from
> Golden east is what we affectionately call "West Kansas".
> You can follow I-25 from the Wyoming border down to the New Mexico
> border and with the exception of the segment between RTN and TAD,
> pretty much fly at 9500 the entire way. Actually, lower most of
> the time, but COS is in the way at 6200 ft. And going east, you
> can do 7500 and keep going downhill the entire time.
>
> It's going west that gets interesting. Rule of thumb out here
> is that the only single engine, night, (and IFR if you wish)
> in/over the mountains better be in an F-16 (yes, they do
> frequently) or a Pilatus.
>

Good point, I am very familiar with Colorado being 50% flat.
What I meant was on one side you have mountains and on the
other side you have a sparse landscape without many lights.
Many people also think that New York state is one big city
of lights, when in actuality the majority (90%) of the state is
farm land and very rural with mountainous terrain that will
reach up and grab you if your not careful.

David

[Jay Honeck]

> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

Flying at night is lovely, and -- as many have mentioned -- a full moon
on a snow-covered landscape is fantastic. (And almost as bright as
daytime, once your eyes adjust.)

That said, Mary and I have made a conscious decision not to fly at
night until the kids are grown. We occasionally have to fly at night,
and enjoy it -- but we do our best to make plans that avoid night
flights.

Why? Because your options are pretty limited if your engine fails on a
dark night, and our kids need us. Around here, you would just aim the
plane for a dark spot, and hope for the best. NOT a good plan, in my
opinion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

I'm not experienced but I've been up at night as PIC a few times, first
on local sight-seeing, then a cross-country, always ending at a
familiar airport.

It strikes me that there are some risks that you need to accept and/or
mitigate if you want to fly at night, such as the difficulty of finding
a decent emergency landing area if you have engine failure out of range
of an airport. However, I have been flying at night under the following
conditions:

1. Very clear weather
2. Generous excess fuel
3. 100% navigational confidence, coming from a combination of
familiarity with the area and having both GPS and VORs to use.
4. Remembering the need to rely heavily on instruments, especially for
attitude control.

I think some VFR pilots are more comfortable using instruments and
ignoring sensations than others. I've flown IMC with instructors (with
me doing all the flying) and I've found it fairly easy to fly on
instruments. Not to say that I think I think I'm immune to
disorientation, but maybe as part of the video game generation,
instrument flying comes a bit more naturally.

One thing I have felt is that those first few moments after take-off,
as you leave the airport boundary and take off into the inky-black sky,
suddenly losing all visual references, are lonely and potentially
disorientating moments - at a time when you are close to the ground and
cannot afford disorientation. It's easy to deal with - just look at the
attitude indicator, make sure the wings are level, pitch for Vy, check
the airspeed, etc. But it feels that way whether you are taking off to
go round the pattern at your local airport or heading off on a long
cross country, so mentally prepare yourself for that scary moment and
you'll be fine.

Tom


FLAV8R wrote:
> "Blanche" > wrote in message ...
> > > wrote in message ...
> >>Given the option, I much rather fly at night than during the day.
> >>But that of course is in Florida, I don't know if I would feel that
> >>way in lets say Colorado or someplace really mountainous with
> >>very few lights to shine the way.
> >
> > David, et al:
> >
> > Don't forget that 50% of Colorado is *not* mountains. In fact, from
> > Golden east is what we affectionately call "West Kansas".
> > You can follow I-25 from the Wyoming border down to the New Mexico
> > border and with the exception of the segment between RTN and TAD,
> > pretty much fly at 9500 the entire way. Actually, lower most of
> > the time, but COS is in the way at 6200 ft. And going east, you
> > can do 7500 and keep going downhill the entire time.
> >
> > It's going west that gets interesting. Rule of thumb out here
> > is that the only single engine, night, (and IFR if you wish)
> > in/over the mountains better be in an F-16 (yes, they do
> > frequently) or a Pilatus.
> >
>
> Good point, I am very familiar with Colorado being 50% flat.
> What I meant was on one side you have mountains and on the
> other side you have a sparse landscape without many lights.
> Many people also think that New York state is one big city
> of lights, when in actuality the majority (90%) of the state is
> farm land and very rural with mountainous terrain that will
> reach up and grab you if your not careful.
>
> David

[Gene Seibel]

180 of my 2900 hours are night hours. I do usually fly higher and have
higher weather minimums at night.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.




wrote:
> I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
> my training as required for certification.
>
> I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
> the city lights that night flying offers.
>
> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
> Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
> navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?
>
> Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
> safely from getting too close to anything?
>
> I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
> but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
> at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
> night flying.

[Jose[_1_]]

With 900 hours, I have 200 at night, and have no hesitation about flying
at night. The most beautiful flights I've had were at night. One in
particular stands out - returning from the (SF) Bay area to the (LA)
Basin, heading for El Monte (EMT). We came across the Gorman Pass at
about four in the morning after flying at 11,500 feet over the desert,
and when we came over the mountains, the entire LA Basin was lit up
pretty much horizon to horizon on one of those rare "clear and infinity"
nights. I pitched down for a half hour descent right into the center of it.

It was an experience that cannot be reduced to words.

> Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
> safely from getting too close to anything?

I fly higher at night, making sure I have more than a thousand feet
clearance above anything within lots of miles (I generally use the
maximum elevation figures in the quadrants I'm flying through as a
guide). Daytime I'm happy to fly below towers, hills, and such, and
make sure I spot them as they go by. At night I won't go anywhere near
that low - it would be suicide. Altitude is your friend, as is flight
planning and situation awareness.

> I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
> the city lights that night flying offers.

The Bay Area has lots of lights. Navigation is pretty easy. Beware of
the hills (easy to see; they are dark) because they have towers (not so
easy to see because even though they are supposed to be lighted, they
might not be and you don't want to be in the papers!)

> Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
> navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?

When flight planning, I use different landmarks at night. A lake in the
wilderness won't show up easily at night, but is great in the day. A
freeway is great at night, but may be easy to miss in the day. The
shapes of cities and towns is easy to see at night, as is air traffic.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[John T]

> wrote in message
ups.com
>
> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

As with many things in aviation and life, it depends on the person as to how
long it takes to get comfortable at night. Personally, I don't recall ever
being uncomfortable, but I do notice a bit more attentiveness to detail when
I'm flying at night. Things like holding altitude and scanning flight and
engine instruments take on a bit more importance for me after the sun
disappears.

Navigating at night is more difficult - and easier. Navigation techniques
are the same as during the day, but you obviously need to use different
landmarks. Also, it seems you can see *much* farther at night than during
the day - mainly due to city lights being visible from much farther away
(assuming, of course, you're in an area with city/town lights to be seen).
This can be very helpful and confusing at the same time until you recognize
the layouts of various towns/cities. The town you think is Homeville may
actually be the city 30 miles away from home.

Many planes these days have a GPS (either panel-mounted or handheld) to
greatly ease navigation at night. If not, radio navaids are very handy.

> Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
> navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?

I just pick different landmarks - usually towns or airports - when flying
visually.

> Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
> safely from getting too close to anything?

I don't tend to fly any higher at night, but I tend to fly higher than many
others during the day. It's rare I need to be on the lookout for towers or
obstructions at my altitude even when I'm flying day VFR. I fly in the
mid-Atlantic and there is usually an airport within gliding distance should
the need arise.

> I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
> but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do
> differently at night versus the day and how many of you actually take
> advantage of night flying.

I try to stay proficient at night for a few reasons. First, I find night
flight very enjoyable. During the summer it's much smoother at night. If
you're flying to get someplace and flying IFR, there are far fewer planes in
the sky at night meaning you can usually get more direct routing. I find it
more peaceful and I like how the landscape is lit up at night. My favorite
time to fly is dusk when there's just enough light to see ground detail, but
dark enough for streetlights and the like to come on to highlight structures
and highways. I also tend to fly much more for utilitarian than recreational
reasons lately and being proficient at night flight allows much greater
flexibility in schedules.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________

[G. Sylvester]

wrote:
> I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
> my training as required for certification.
>
> I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
> the city lights that night flying offers.

the others have given just about all good things to consider when flying
at night.

For me, I have about 240 hours with about 60 of those at night. I'm now
IFR so most of my night flying out of SQL is on IFR flight plans. I
don't want to be squeezed down when there are so many mountains around.
In fact, Max Trescott who is a well respected gold seal CFII in the
area did a very good presentation on a much higher percentage of
accidents in the bay area are at night. Having said that, a few weeks
ago flying back from APA at night was just magical. Flew over SF and
the entire city looked like it was a magnificent painting. The entire
city just glowed and twinkled. Shoot me an email and we can go up some
time.

Gerald

[Blanche]

In article >, FLAV8R > wrote:

>Good point, I am very familiar with Colorado being 50% flat.
>What I meant was on one side you have mountains and on the
>other side you have a sparse landscape without many lights.
>Many people also think that New York state is one big city
>of lights, when in actuality the majority (90%) of the state is
>farm land and very rural with mountainous terrain that will
>reach up and grab you if your not careful.

Last spring I took a friend from Denver to Sidney (Cabelas trip).
During the day, definitely rural and agriculture. Looked absolutely
empty except for the light traffic on I-76, she observed.

We came home in the evening (after dark). Jeanne was completely
amazed at the quantity of lights. Big city lights? No. But there
were no large patches of complete darkness. Gives an new perspective
on the number of people (homes, etc) in "rural America".

I think most states are primarily agricultural with relatively small
urban pockets -- well, not the LA Basin area, but that's another
issue entirely.

Going back to the original discussion of night flying. Out here in
the west, flying at night is the best time in the summer. Too hot
(let's hear it for Density Altitude!) during the day.

Personally, I love flying at night. Among other advantages, it's
much easier to see other aircraft -- gotta love those nav lights.
I do have a personal limitation, tho. I do not fly a route at
night that I haven't flown in day, VFR. Perhaps a bit more limiting,
but to me, the advantage is that I'm (slightly) more familiar with
the area and know where the "outs" are going to be.

And never, never, never, NEVER night flying over the mountains.
If I can't be on the east side of the Rockies by dusk, I park the
aircraft and find a place to sleep until the morning.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote

> If push comes to shove, you can always use a GPS,VOR's, or vectors from ATC
> (assuming your battery doesn't go flat) to find your way back the first few
> times - but you wouldn't want to become dependant on that kind of stuff.

Why not? This kind of advise always hacks me off, a little bit. Why do we have
these modern things, if not to take advantage of them? Plan for failures, as
unlikely as multiple failures are, and layers of backup.

Yes, we have to make plan B's, and plan C's.

Keep your situational awareness up. Know where you are, and where your useable
airports are, all the time, in case something does go seriously astray. Your
were doing this anyway, as you always do for any flight, right?

Have a GPS in your panel? OK, take along a backup hand-held GPS, and extra
batteries. You have a backup. If you panel mount fails, consider that a very
strong suggestion to land, and consider your next move, unless you know for sure
where you are, and can make it home on ded reckoning, and visual pilotage, and
perhaps another form of backup. If you are proficient on using VOR's, then you
might not consider losing two GPS units as a flight ending situation. Vectors
from ATC can usually be considered as even another layer of protection/backup,
if you have a handheld (or two) and extra batteries, and a way to hook to an
external antenna, if your plane does not allow for good handheld use without the
external antenna. Adapters to hook up your headset to the handheld may be
needed for your particular plane.

If your battery goes flat, because of your charging system packing it in, then
just MAYBE you ought to land, at night? No rocket science, in making that kind
of decision. Still, for the backup prepared, there need not be a life and death
situation, from having a dead electrical system. There can still be a ton of
backups. Oh, and of course, you do have your FAA required flashlight (with
extra batteries) with you, so you can see your panel, right?
--
Jim in NC

[Timmay]

I absolutely love night flying. Things show up so much better; traffic,
cities, busy roads, it's my favorite time to fly. Unfortunately, the
FBO I rented from back when I had only a private certificate changed
their policy on me and required night renters to have an instrument
rating. I can see the logic in it, but it was strictly an insurance
standpoint that made them change. Night cross-country's back in the day
though, my favorite.

[Doug[_1_]]

Go out 1/2 hour before it gets dark and start doing some touch and
goes. Gradually it will get darker and you will be landing at night.

There is night and there is DARK night. Most night flying has ground
lights and stars and maybe some moonlight. Truely a dark, dark night is
different and harder. Also an airport out away from town, lit only by
it's runway edge lights on a DARK nignt IS difficult to judge. So don't
start with the DARK night. Give yourself some city lights, some
moonlight etc and enjoy the view. Avoid mountains at night. Nice to
have a good heater too....

[Kyle Boatright]

"Doug" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Go out 1/2 hour before it gets dark and start doing some touch and
> goes. Gradually it will get darker and you will be landing at night.
>
> There is night and there is DARK night. Most night flying has ground
> lights and stars and maybe some moonlight. Truely a dark, dark night is
> different and harder. Also an airport out away from town, lit only by
> it's runway edge lights on a DARK nignt IS difficult to judge. So don't
> start with the DARK night. Give yourself some city lights, some
> moonlight etc and enjoy the view. Avoid mountains at night. Nice to
> have a good heater too....

Another issue with night flying is haze. Here in the Southeast,
particularly in the summer, haze can severely limit your visibility. I've
been in situations where I was effectively IFR due to being over a sparsely
populated area in haze. The haze took away both the stars and enough
downward visibility that you couldn't see lights on the ground unless they
were right under you.

On one particular return trip from Osh, we ended up being IFR (I follow
roads) over I-24 and I-75 between Nashville and Atlanta. The interstates
were the only reliable references for visual flying. That flight was a
little spooky before we figured out the interstate thing.

KB

[Mxsmanic]

Kyle Boatright writes:

> On one particular return trip from Osh, we ended up being IFR (I follow
> roads) over I-24 and I-75 between Nashville and Atlanta. The interstates
> were the only reliable references for visual flying. That flight was a
> little spooky before we figured out the interstate thing.

I take it you didn't have any radio navigation instruments on board?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[jsbougher]

I have to second many of Jay's points. In my younger, less experienced
times, I did a LOT of night flying (winter in mid-west, you either take
time off or fly at night). I loved it - beautiful sights, smooth air,
absolutely magical. Two years ago, I got the opportunity to land
engine out in a wheat field (during the day). Perfect touch down just
over the trees and just short of the road/ditch. No damage at all to
the plane or occupants. Pulled the wings, towed her to the nearest
airport, replaced an intake gasket and flew her home (oh yeah, removed
1/2 lb of wheat from the pitot). Anway, night flight has taken on a
new dimension since. It's amazing the "auto-rough" on the engine that
sets in about sunset. An off-field landing at night is something I
NEVER want to do. Flying here on full-moon or near full moon nights is
pretty easy, but I avoid overcast and/or sliver moon nights if at all
possible. I find myself constantly tracking "nearest airport" and
flying much higher as well as spending too much time on instruments
(engine in particular) and have to force myself to keep eyes out of the
plane (and on the sky instead of just the next potential landing spot).
I got back on the horse, but am a bit more skittish now for sure.
Jeff

PS - An actual off-field landing is something a sim will NEVER really
prepare you for. It's also something that's surprisingly different
than all of your practice power-outs. All that practice ingrains
excellent responses and instills the correct reactions, but there is a
"come to Jesus" moment when it's real. I discovered, for the first
time in my life, that I get REALLY bad lower back spasms under enough
stress :^). Never had a sim or had a practice flight indicate that
would happen :^).

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> > you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
> Flying at night is lovely, and -- as many have mentioned -- a full moon
> on a snow-covered landscape is fantastic. (And almost as bright as
> daytime, once your eyes adjust.)
>
> That said, Mary and I have made a conscious decision not to fly at
> night until the kids are grown. We occasionally have to fly at night,
> and enjoy it -- but we do our best to make plans that avoid night
> flights.
>
> Why? Because your options are pretty limited if your engine fails on a
> dark night, and our kids need us. Around here, you would just aim the
> plane for a dark spot, and hope for the best. NOT a good plan, in my
> opinion.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Kyle Boatright writes:
>
>
>>On one particular return trip from Osh, we ended up being IFR (I follow
>>roads) over I-24 and I-75 between Nashville and Atlanta. The interstates
>>were the only reliable references for visual flying. That flight was a
>>little spooky before we figured out the interstate thing.
>
>
> I take it you didn't have any radio navigation instruments on board?




You take it wrong. As usual. It had nothing to do with navigation.

[Mxsmanic]

Newps writes:

> You take it wrong. As usual. It had nothing to do with navigation.

You mentioned interstates; it sounded like navigation to me.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[glider_tom@Reverse_oohay.com]

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:34:03 -0800, Bob Fry >
wrote:

.... a lot of good stuff removed ...

> Do a short night hop
>to a nearby airport that you have done many times in the daytime, for
>instance, San Carlos to Palo Alto or Reid-Hillview.

Most of Bay Area is highly noise sensitive and additional restrictions
apply at night.
For example:
RHV - no touch-and-go after 9 PM
SQL - no touch-and-go when tower closed
HWD - rwy 10L/28R closed when tower closed
etc. -- read A/FD and NOTAMs carefully

I usually fly to Hollister (3O7) for night stop-and-go practice and
currency. No restrictions, no traffic, and runway 13/31 is long enough
for full stop and takeoff without taxiing back.

- Tom

[G. Sylvester]

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:34:39 GMT, wrote:
>
>> Most of Bay Area is highly noise sensitive and additional restrictions
>> apply at night.
>> For example:
>> RHV - no touch-and-go after 9 PM
>> SQL - no touch-and-go when tower closed
>> HWD - rwy 10L/28R closed when tower closed
>> etc. -- read A/FD and NOTAMs carefully
>
> Right now, "night" starts ~ 1730 local time in many areas.
>
> Plenty of time to fly at night while everybody's still open!

that's correct. I was able to get in a few quick touch-taxi-go night
landings at SQL not too long ago right around 6:20pm. Also PAO allows
night take off and landings. Remember for night currency you have to
land, then taxi back then take off again. Touch and go's don't count
for currency.

Gerald

[Marty Shapiro]

"G. Sylvester" > wrote in
et:

> B A R R Y wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:34:39 GMT, wrote:
>>
>>> Most of Bay Area is highly noise sensitive and additional restrictions
>>> apply at night.
>>> For example:
>>> RHV - no touch-and-go after 9 PM
>>> SQL - no touch-and-go when tower closed
>>> HWD - rwy 10L/28R closed when tower closed
>>> etc. -- read A/FD and NOTAMs carefully
>>
>> Right now, "night" starts ~ 1730 local time in many areas.
>>
>> Plenty of time to fly at night while everybody's still open!
>
> that's correct. I was able to get in a few quick touch-taxi-go night
> landings at SQL not too long ago right around 6:20pm. Also PAO allows
> night take off and landings. Remember for night currency you have to
> land, then taxi back then take off again. Touch and go's don't count
> for currency.
>
> Gerald
>

The FARs only require that you do a full stop. If the runway is long
enough, you do NOT need to taxi back. When I was based at SJC the tower
would let me use 30L late at night. With almost 10,000', it was no problem
to do a full stop and go.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[G. Sylvester]

Marty Shapiro wrote:
> The FARs only require that you do a full stop. If the runway is long
> enough, you do NOT need to taxi back. When I was based at SJC the tower
> would let me use 30L late at night. With almost 10,000', it was no problem
> to do a full stop and go.

correct. I never thought about doing the touch - stop - go's (that's
better terminology I guess) at SJC. I dont' this is specified anywhere
but how high do you have to go for it to count as a landing. Can you
take off, stay in ground effect, land and stop?

Gerald

[Morgans[_2_]]

"G. Sylvester" > wrote

I dont' this is specified anywhere
> but how high do you have to go for it to count as a landing. Can you take
> off, stay in ground effect, land and stop?

A full pattern, or entrance into some part of the pattern?

I don't know either, but that would have to be the interpretation, I would
think.
--
Jim in NC

[Marty Shapiro]

"G. Sylvester" > wrote in
et:

> Marty Shapiro wrote:
>> The FARs only require that you do a full stop. If the runway
>> is long
>> enough, you do NOT need to taxi back. When I was based at SJC the
>> tower would let me use 30L late at night. With almost 10,000', it
>> was no problem to do a full stop and go.
>
> correct. I never thought about doing the touch - stop - go's (that's
> better terminology I guess) at SJC. I dont' this is specified
> anywhere but how high do you have to go for it to count as a landing.
> Can you take off, stay in ground effect, land and stop?
>
> Gerald
>

FAR 61.57 does not say how high or how far. All it says is -

"(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in
paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an
aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after
sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90
days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a
full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour
before sunrise, and—

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of
the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required)."

If you wanted to, you could get night current in one pass down the
runway at several airports in the Bay area.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[napd[_1_]]

Hi,
Well everyone has given great advice which I agree with. The only
thing that I can add is this
COCKPIT ORGANIZATION by this I mean know were everything is without
having to go fishing for it. in a dark cockpit it can be difficult or
impossible to have to go looking for things in your flight bag. The
only other thing I can add is have at least two flashlights and spare
batteries. I date mine when they are put in and they are replaced every
year or sooner depending on usage.. I like the led style that I can
hang around my neck red or green color. easy to find stay away from
the one light multi colors... unless it has a foolproof switch system
you spend more time fumbling for the right switch nothing worse than
trying for red or green and getting white ... I also carry a mini mag
light for the preflight.

With that said enjoy!!

wrote:
> I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
> my training as required for certification.
>
> I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
> the city lights that night flying offers.
>
> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?
>
> Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
> navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?
>
> Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
> safely from getting too close to anything?
>
> I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
> but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
> at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
> night flying.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"napd" > wrote

>I also carry a mini mag
> light for the preflight.

I know you can't beat the mini-mag, for size and performance, but I have a hot
tip for you.

Get a replacement bulb for the big mag lights, or you can by one with the new
bulb in it. Mine is a 3 cell, but they also make it in 4 cell; I don't remember
about other sizes.

The magical bulb I speak of is a 3 watt LED, and I'm telling you, you have to
see it to believe it.

Color, the brilliance of white - like daylight. Brightness, like you would not
believe.

Check it out. A little under 20 bucks, for just the bulb. Worth every penny,
especially for something like a preflight, where it is "nice" to be able to see
into every nook and cranny, with clarity.
--
Jim in NC

[Newps]

I bought two of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LED-Pilot-Supplies-Flashlight-Piper-Cessna-Beechcraft_W0QQitemZ260063610863QQihZ016QQcategory Z26440QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Morgans wrote:

>
> "napd" > wrote
>
>> I also carry a mini mag
>> light for the preflight.
>
>
> I know you can't beat the mini-mag, for size and performance, but I have
> a hot tip for you.
>
> Get a replacement bulb for the big mag lights, or you can by one with
> the new bulb in it. Mine is a 3 cell, but they also make it in 4 cell;
> I don't remember about other sizes.
>
> The magical bulb I speak of is a 3 watt LED, and I'm telling you, you
> have to see it to believe it.
>
> Color, the brilliance of white - like daylight. Brightness, like you
> would not believe.
>
> Check it out. A little under 20 bucks, for just the bulb. Worth every
> penny, especially for something like a preflight, where it is "nice" to
> be able to see into every nook and cranny, with clarity.

[napd[_1_]]

yup have one of those also and yes it cannot be beat...
but still for inflight use I like the smaller red or green that I have
on a lanyard

Newps wrote:
> I bought two of these.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LED-Pilot-Supplies-Flashlight-Piper-Cessna-Beechcraft_W0QQitemZ260063610863QQihZ016QQcategory Z26440QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> Morgans wrote:
>
> >
> > "napd" > wrote
> >
> >> I also carry a mini mag
> >> light for the preflight.
> >
> >
> > I know you can't beat the mini-mag, for size and performance, but I have
> > a hot tip for you.
> >
> > Get a replacement bulb for the big mag lights, or you can by one with
> > the new bulb in it. Mine is a 3 cell, but they also make it in 4 cell;
> > I don't remember about other sizes.
> >
> > The magical bulb I speak of is a 3 watt LED, and I'm telling you, you
> > have to see it to believe it.
> >
> > Color, the brilliance of white - like daylight. Brightness, like you
> > would not believe.
> >
> > Check it out. A little under 20 bucks, for just the bulb. Worth every
> > penny, especially for something like a preflight, where it is "nice" to
> > be able to see into every nook and cranny, with clarity.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"napd" > wrote in message

> yup have one of those also and yes it cannot be beat...
> but still for inflight use I like the smaller red or green that I have
> on a lanyard

In-flight, sure, no super-bright needed, or wanted! <g>

With 9 lights, I'll bet it is decent. I still wonder how many watts it is,
overall.

I have some multi LED lights. (I'm a REAL flashlight junkie) I still could not
believe the brilliance of the single 3 watt bulb. The brightness is one factor.
The color of the light is the real eye-opener.

See if you can find someone that has the 3 watt mag-light bulb in a 3 or more D
cell flashlight. Compare your 9 light vs. the 1 light, side by side. My guess
is that you will be as impressed as I was, still. You have to see it to believe
it.

Someone who has both, compare, and let us know what you think. I am curious, to
be sure!
--
Jim in NC

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

napd wrote:
> I like the led style that I can
> hang around my neck red or green color. easy to find stay away from
> the one light multi colors... unless it has a foolproof switch system
> you spend more time fumbling for the right switch nothing worse than
> trying for red or green and getting white ...

Those things are so good on batteries that I usually leave mine on. I
also "dimmed" mine by adding layers of tape over the LED's.

[LWG]

I don't know whether many have seen these, but WalMart has finger lights for
less than $2 each. They are little LEDs with batteries. The case has two
little velcro straps to hook around your finger. I have two clipped to the
outside of my flight bag. I haven't used them in the airplane, as I don't
fly at night that often, but they worked great during a power failure. The
light is blue-white, and would need to be filtered if you want red light.

"napd" > wrote in message
s.com...
> Hi,
> Well everyone has given great advice which I agree with. The only
> thing that I can add is this
> COCKPIT ORGANIZATION by this I mean know were everything is without
> having to go fishing for it. in a dark cockpit it can be difficult or
> impossible to have to go looking for things in your flight bag. The
> only other thing I can add is have at least two flashlights and spare
> batteries. I date mine when they are put in and they are replaced every
> year or sooner depending on usage.. I like the led style that I can
> hang around my neck red or green color. easy to find stay away from
> the one light multi colors... unless it has a foolproof switch system
> you spend more time fumbling for the right switch nothing worse than
> trying for red or green and getting white ... I also carry a mini mag
> light for the preflight.
>

[Roger[_4_]]

On 9 Dec 2006 10:40:50 -0800, wrote:

>I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
>my training as required for certification.
>
>I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
>the city lights that night flying offers.
>
>How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
>you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

That depends on the individual and their comfort factor.
Whether VFR or IFR I navigate just like I do in the day time...VF R
it's looking out the windows and IFR...is self explanatory.

>
>Or I guess a better question is what techniques do you use at night to
>navigate that are different then how you navigate during the day?

If in a populated area with lots of lights it's just like flying in
the day time. You know where the horizon goes in the windshield, based
on the lights, put it there. OTOH I'd not recommend night VFR in
sparsely populated areas. In these cases there is no visual horizon
unless there is a bright moon.

My Deb has very poor panel lighting so I wear a little Head band (head
light consisting of a dim red LED, a dim white LED, and a set of very
bright white LEDs (don't switch the last one on at night in the cabin
or it gets very dark outside) I also carry several spare flashlights
of various sizes including at least one very bright one for survival.
On one night instrument flight I had problems with all of the
flashlights except the big, *bright* (very bright) 3 cell. I used it
by placing my hand over the lens and letting the light leak through my
fingers. That was through, not between!

>
>Do you just fly the altitudes that you fly during the day time to stay
>safely from getting too close to anything?

I pretty much fly the same at night as I do in the day. Landings a
bit different, but you learn to use the landing light properly and
otherwise judge distances. BTW your daylight distance judging will be
shot at night and that probably takes longer than anything else to get
used to.

Unless you are close enough to suitable landing terrain and know where
it is located there is little use in flying higher as you can't see
where you are going to land any way, but that depends on the terrain,
visibility, and availability of nearby airports.

>
>I know the easy answer is to go up with an instructor, and I plan too,
>but I wanted to hear from you all first and see what you do differently
>at night versus the day and how many of you actually take advantage of
>night flying.

Night flying is beautiful in populated areas or on nights with a full
moon. Using High speed film I've even taken some night shots that
came out quite well.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jose[_1_]]

> Unless you are close enough to suitable landing terrain and know where
> it is located there is little use in flying higher as you can't see
> where you are going to land any way, but that depends on the terrain,
> visibility, and availability of nearby airports.

That depends on how low you fly during the day, doesn't it? :) During
the day it's generally safe to fly below the tops of nearby terrain
since you can see it. At night this is somewhat less bright.

Also, additional altitude gives more time to troubleshoot and solve a
problem with the fan. It may take longer at night just because of the
visibility issues.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:39:21 -0500, Jose >
wrote:

>> Unless you are close enough to suitable landing terrain and know where
>> it is located there is little use in flying higher as you can't see
>> where you are going to land any way, but that depends on the terrain,
>> visibility, and availability of nearby airports.
>
>That depends on how low you fly during the day, doesn't it? :) During
>the day it's generally safe to fly below the tops of nearby terrain
>since you can see it. At night this is somewhat less bright.

Depends on where you are flying.

Around here you'd need a fair amount of gas just to get where you
could safely find a spot where you could fly below the tops of
surrounding terrain. Even flying *very* low over sparsely populated
areas I'd need to go about 60 miles to get that low without worrying
about hitting telephone lines and cell phone towers.
>
>Also, additional altitude gives more time to troubleshoot and solve a
>problem with the fan. It may take longer at night just because of the
>visibility issues.

The only complete engine failure I've had was close to the ground as
in between 30 and 50 feet. I did the trouble shooting without ever
looking at the switches and valves. It didn't restart any way.
It had a blown diaphragm in the fuel distribution spider on top of the
engine.
>


>Jose
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Christopher Campbell[_1_]]

On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 10:40:50 -0800, wrote
(in article om>):

> I have about 150 total hours now, but my only night flights were during
> my training as required for certification.
>
> I fly in the Bay Area, CA I would love to see the beautiful scenery of
> the city lights that night flying offers.
>
> How long does it take to comfortabley fly at night and how do those of
> you that fly at night navigate in the dark?

Most flight instructors fly a fair amount at night, of course, but the wise
ones only do it under conditions of their choosing. Most of them become
extremely familiar with the local area or their particular favorite cross
country route. The Bay area would be much easier to navigate than, say, the
open desert because of the lights of the city and the distinctive patterns of
water and bridges.