Taking newbies flying...

[Dan Luke]

....offers endless opportunities for screwing up the experience for them, as
I've demonstrated yet again.

My business partner's 21-yr. old son has been hinting around for a few years
that he wanted to try flying sometime. When he finally asked outright to
take a flight, I was happy to agree, especially since he would be bringing
along his supermodel-quality girlfriend.

So T_ and M_ showed up at the airport Saturday afternoon. T_ was interested
in everything that was happening on the ramp and M_ was stopping students
and flight instructors in mid-sentence as she walked by. The weather was
perfect and this was going to be great fun.

After the walkaround and passenger briefing, I got my pax headsetted and
buckled in and gave T_ a description of how the controls worked. I let him
steer on the long taxi out to RWY 36. Cleared for takeoff, I let him
control the yoke. He did fine on the rotation and climbout, so I let him
make the climbing 180 deg. left turn to our departure heading. He did that
fine, too. Once I got T_ trimmed out and flying level, I turned to M_ in
the back seat to ask how she was doing.

Ummm..., not so well: M_ had the look of someone who had just stared death
in the face.

" Doing OK, M_?"

"Uh, better now," said M_, attempting a brave smile. "That turn was a
little scary!"

What M_ wasn't saying, of course, was that she had just spent a few seconds
fearing for her life because an apparent lunatic had turned over control of
an itty bitty airplane to her virtually clueless boyfriend, who promptly put
it in a bank 500' from the ground.

M_ brightened up a bit as the flight went along but she mentioned the
scary departure turn a couple more times. I was cursing myself the whole
way. I had really screwed it up by doing a wholly inadequate job of
preparing my pax for what they were going to experience. As a result, I
somehow doubt that I will have the pleasure of M_'s company on any future
flights.

Lesson learned: tell your newbie pax everything that is going to happen in
advance. Be especially detailed about any plans for their controlling the
airplane, and find out if they are going to be uncomfortable with anything
you have planned.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[A Lieberma]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in
:

> Lesson learned: tell your newbie pax everything that is going to
> happen in advance. Be especially detailed about any plans for their
> controlling the airplane, and find out if they are going to be
> uncomfortable with anything you have planned.

Good tip Dan. It truly sounds like you did salvage the flight for the
person though???

I had a newbie up yesterday too, but after quizzing him about what he
liked for hobbies and he rode bulls, I knew my Sundowner would be a much
tamer beast.

I had a student pilot in the right seat, and he sat in the back and we
went up to Greenwood MS to visit an "airliner graveyard" where they strip
down DC10's L1011's, and any other jet model you can think of for scrap.
Nice to walk around these huge planes and get a feeling of being so small
:-)

I had the newbie take the controls on the way back after I was straight
and level. I had him do some turns willy nilly, and then had him "drive
the plane home" using the GPS and visual references outside.

I don't let anybody near the controls during climb in the pattern as the
last thing I want them to hear is the stall horn on climb out. In fact,
I tend to "simulate" a soft field take off, by getting off the ground as
quick as I can, lower the nose a little so I can get ground effect to
help me build my speed up and keep the angle of attack lower.

Newbie loved it, and got an email from the student, that all the newbie
talked about was the flight :-)

CAVU and calm air always makes it nice.

Allen

[Greengears]

Got to agree with you Allen, I find it tough letting a newbie take the
controls during takeoff.

Briefing the pax before a flight is very important, ,there have been so
many times when you think a newbie can handle most aspects of the
flight but then assumption are always a bad thing.
A Lieberma wrote:
> "Dan Luke" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Lesson learned: tell your newbie pax everything that is going to
> > happen in advance. Be especially detailed about any plans for their
> > controlling the airplane, and find out if they are going to be
> > uncomfortable with anything you have planned.
>
> Good tip Dan. It truly sounds like you did salvage the flight for the
> person though???
>
> I had a newbie up yesterday too, but after quizzing him about what he
> liked for hobbies and he rode bulls, I knew my Sundowner would be a much
> tamer beast.
>
> I had a student pilot in the right seat, and he sat in the back and we
> went up to Greenwood MS to visit an "airliner graveyard" where they strip
> down DC10's L1011's, and any other jet model you can think of for scrap.
> Nice to walk around these huge planes and get a feeling of being so small
> :-)
>
> I had the newbie take the controls on the way back after I was straight
> and level. I had him do some turns willy nilly, and then had him "drive
> the plane home" using the GPS and visual references outside.
>
> I don't let anybody near the controls during climb in the pattern as the
> last thing I want them to hear is the stall horn on climb out. In fact,
> I tend to "simulate" a soft field take off, by getting off the ground as
> quick as I can, lower the nose a little so I can get ground effect to
> help me build my speed up and keep the angle of attack lower.
>
> Newbie loved it, and got an email from the student, that all the newbie
> talked about was the flight :-)
>
> CAVU and calm air always makes it nice.
>
> Allen

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:29:52 -0600, Dan Luke wrote:

>Lesson learned: tell your newbie pax everything that is going to happen in
>advance. Be especially detailed about any plans for their controlling the
>airplane, and find out if they are going to be uncomfortable with anything
>you have planned.

the interesting part is missing: where are the pics of M_?

:-)

Yep, I agree: talk to your first time passengers just like you're talking
to your examiner (without the tech-speak). Talk talk talk ...

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[Walt]

Great story, Dan.

I've never let a "newbie" handle the controls on takeoff -I'm too
paranoid--, but last summer I took a friend's 15-year-old son on a
flight. We took off out of Gallatin Field near Bozeman, MT and flew
west to the Missouri confluence near Three Forks. Once at altitude I
handed the controls over to him. He did great.

We turned north and followed the Missouri to Canyon Ferry, then
followed the creek east between the Big Belts and the Horseshoe Hills
toward Maudlow. I wanted to skirt the north end of the Bridger
Mountains and follow the Shields River Valley south to Livingston, then
west over Bozeman Pass and back to Gallatin Field.

Once we got established heading east between the Big Belts and the
Horseshoes I told him to maintain a 100 heading by following the
compass. He complied.

This heading didn't quite work as we were heading straight toward
Blacktail Mountain, which was slightly higher than us.

15-year-old kid: "Uh, Walt, we're heading straight for that mountain.
Should I keep flying by the compass?

Me: "Yup." (I was looking for elk).

15-year-old kid: "UM, okay".

We get closer to Blacktail. And closer.

15-year-old kid: "Mr. Weaver, I really don't want to die today. Can I
turn the airplane?"

Me: "Yup. I don't want to die either. Go around it to the left."

Kid got a big smile on his face and turned the airplane. We skirted
Blacktail to the north, then turned south and went to Livingston.

I didn't find any elk. And I'm still wondering if he'd have flown the
airplane into Blacktail if I didn't tell him to turn. :>)

Kid had a great time and is taking pilot lessons now.

--Walt


Dan Luke wrote:
> ...offers endless opportunities for screwing up the experience for them, as
> I've demonstrated yet again.
>
> My business partner's 21-yr. old son has been hinting around for a few years
> that he wanted to try flying sometime. When he finally asked outright to
> take a flight, I was happy to agree, especially since he would be bringing
> along his supermodel-quality girlfriend.
>
> So T_ and M_ showed up at the airport Saturday afternoon. T_ was interested
> in everything that was happening on the ramp and M_ was stopping students
> and flight instructors in mid-sentence as she walked by. The weather was
> perfect and this was going to be great fun.
>
> After the walkaround and passenger briefing, I got my pax headsetted and
> buckled in and gave T_ a description of how the controls worked. I let him
> steer on the long taxi out to RWY 36. Cleared for takeoff, I let him
> control the yoke. He did fine on the rotation and climbout, so I let him
> make the climbing 180 deg. left turn to our departure heading. He did that
> fine, too. Once I got T_ trimmed out and flying level, I turned to M_ in
> the back seat to ask how she was doing.
>
> Ummm..., not so well: M_ had the look of someone who had just stared death
> in the face.
>
> " Doing OK, M_?"
>
> "Uh, better now," said M_, attempting a brave smile. "That turn was a
> little scary!"
>
> What M_ wasn't saying, of course, was that she had just spent a few seconds
> fearing for her life because an apparent lunatic had turned over control of
> an itty bitty airplane to her virtually clueless boyfriend, who promptly put
> it in a bank 500' from the ground.
>
> M_ brightened up a bit as the flight went along but she mentioned the
> scary departure turn a couple more times. I was cursing myself the whole
> way. I had really screwed it up by doing a wholly inadequate job of
> preparing my pax for what they were going to experience. As a result, I
> somehow doubt that I will have the pleasure of M_'s company on any future
> flights.
>
> Lesson learned: tell your newbie pax everything that is going to happen in
> advance. Be especially detailed about any plans for their controlling the
> airplane, and find out if they are going to be uncomfortable with anything
> you have planned.
>
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM

[Vaughn Simon]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> ...offers endless opportunities for screwing up the experience for them, as
> I've demonstrated yet again.
> "Uh, better now," said M_, attempting a brave smile. "That turn was a little
> scary!"
>
> What M_ wasn't saying, of course, was that she had just spent a few seconds
> fearing for her life because an apparent lunatic had turned over control of an
> itty bitty airplane to her virtually clueless boyfriend, who promptly put it
> in a bank 500' from the ground.

It may have been the turn itself, more than who was controlling the
aircraft. I did commercial glider rides for a few years, and I learned to ask
about the past experiences of my passenger before the flight. If they had no
experiences in light aircraft, I would always remind them that an aircraft banks
when it turns "like a bicycle".

Try to remember back to your first ride in an airplane and what your
sensations were. The experience for a first-time passenger in a light plane can
be very disorienting, and turns are the biggest problem. One thing that helps
is to direct their attention outside the airplane to some landmark that they
will recognize.

Vaughn

[N2310D]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> ...offers endless opportunities for screwing up the experience for them,
> as I've demonstrated yet again.
>

I'm glad it ended up okay.
I invited a friend to take a ride with me for his birthday present. His
wife and 12-year-old daughter went along in the back seat. During the
passenger brief, I pretty much explained stuff to everyone's satisfaction
including some insightful questions from the youngster.
After we were leveled off and trimmed out, I demonstrated some movements
of the controls including, with permission a 'steep' turn, which did not go
more than 45 degrees and got a giggle from the back seat and a request to do
it again. I glanced at Mom and she was doing fine so I did one more to the
other side. We flew over their house and I did a 360 to both sides.
On the way back to the airport I gave the controls over to Bill and
coached him through some gentle turns, nothing more than 10 degrees or so.
Then, from the back seat came this young plaintive voice, "Is my daddy
flying the airplane?"
"Yes," I answered, "and he's doing a great job."
Then came this shriek, followed by, " I DON'T WANT MY DADDY TO FLY IT!!"

[A Lieberma]

"N2310D" > wrote in news:_gYeh.331$yZ4.104@trnddc05:

> Then came this shriek, followed by, " I DON'T WANT MY DADDY TO FLY
> IT!!"

LMAO! Yep, those kids do say the darndest things, and probably the wiser
too :-)

Allen

[Stefan]

Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
stranger. To a stranger nonetheless who sits the first time in his life
in a small plane. And you don't just hand over the controls at altitude
(which admittedly I have done myself), but right on the ground and you
let him fly the take off. Then you let him fly a 180 at low altitude.
And all this *with a passenger in the back*!

Yes, you screwed up royally. But for a different reason than you think.

Stefan

[Mxsmanic]

Stefan writes:

> Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
> please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
> stranger. To a stranger nonetheless who sits the first time in his life
> in a small plane. And you don't just hand over the controls at altitude
> (which admittedly I have done myself), but right on the ground and you
> let him fly the take off. Then you let him fly a 180 at low altitude.
> And all this *with a passenger in the back*!
>
> Yes, you screwed up royally. But for a different reason than you think.

Everything seems to have gone well.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Ron Lee]

"Walt" > wrote:
>
>This heading didn't quite work as we were heading straight toward
>Blacktail Mountain, which was slightly higher than us.
>
>15-year-old kid: "Uh, Walt, we're heading straight for that mountain.
>Should I keep flying by the compass?
>
>Me: "Yup." (I was looking for elk).
>
>15-year-old kid: "UM, okay".
>
Goin intro to cockpit management. Never assume that a more
experienced pilot is competent. If something seems odd don't dance
around the bush...state what you are thinking.

Ron Lee

[Mxsmanic]

Ron Lee writes:

> Never assume that a more experienced pilot is competent.
> If something seems odd don't dance around the bush ...
> state what you are thinking.

Does that apply only in the cockpit, or in newsgroups as well?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[G. Sylvester]

Walt wrote:
> 15-year-old kid: "Uh, Walt, we're heading straight for that mountain.
> Should I keep flying by the compass?
>
> Me: "Yup." (I was looking for elk).


Walt - boy are you lazy and cheap. You sound like Tom Sawyer. Buy an
autopilot. ;-) ;-)

Geral

[Dan Luke]

"Stefan" wrote:

> Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
> please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
> stranger.

Where did you get the idea it was a stranger?


--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Dan Luke]

>>
>>"Uh, better now," said M_, attempting a brave smile. "That turn was a
>>little scary!"
>
> That's because "T" probably didn't use any rudder in the turn.
>
> We front seaters get a very different feeling from uncoordinated turns
> from back seaters. <G>

I was handling the rudder part.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Dan Luke]

"Martin Hotze" wrote:

> the interesting part is missing: where are the pics of M_?
>
> :-)

Another screwup; I forgot the camera. ;(

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Stefan" > wrote

> Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are, please
> correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a stranger. To a
> stranger nonetheless who sits the first time in his life in a small plane. And
> you don't just hand over the controls at altitude (which admittedly I have
> done myself), but right on the ground and you let him fly the take off. Then
> you let him fly a 180 at low altitude. And all this *with a passenger in the
> back*!
>
> Yes, you screwed up royally. But for a different reason than you think.

What is the big F'en problem, here?

If the newbie happened to do it right, and it sounds like he did, there is no
problem. If he starts to get outside of the expected flight parameters, you
nudge and urge corrections, and if that doesn't work, you say "my plane."

Do you think that he could not tell if something was happening that was a trend
in the wrong direction? Do you think that everyone who takes the controls is
going to horse them, and screw up? If that were the case, there would be far
less new students. Perhaps that is the problem. People are so stuck on the
fact that flying is for supermen, and themselves, and nobody else deserves the
chance to prove themselves.

So what difference does it make, if he is a instructor or not. I'm willing to
place money on the fact that there are many people who are not certified flight
instructors that are way better teachers than many of the certified flight
instructors out there flying people and sometimes students with passengers
around the sky. How many people here, got to do the first takeoff that they
were in the plane, and the maneuvers following that, too? I'll bet over half
got to do the landing, with plenty of coaching and a few corrections, too.

I think your reaction is way, way over the top, on this one.

Remember the adage of many examiners, about predicting the students abilities,
and whether they will pass, or not? If you don't, it goes something like " I
can tell if the student will be able to fly, and pass, while the plane is still
being taxied out for takeoff."

So he was able to tell that the new person had a good feel for the plane, right
off the bat. It does not take a piece of paper with a bunch of initials on it
to be able to do that.

Good going, Allen. You may have just won another person over to our side.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Morgans" > wrote

> Good going, Allen. You may have just won another person over to our side.

OOps! I lost track of the OP. Good going, Dan. Allen, you have to go out and
do this for yourself! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[A Lieberma]

"Morgans" > wrote in
:

> OOps! I lost track of the OP. Good going, Dan. Allen, you have to
> go out and do this for yourself! <g>

Be glad to Jim!!! :-))

Allen

[David Kazdan]

I've been offering rides as bar- and bat-mitzvah gifts at our synagogue.
One girl with whom I've been trying to schedule for a few months (kids
are busy these days) has a brother a few years younger who wants to come
along. He told me he would only come if I promised not to do any
aerobatics; turns out he overheard me talking with his (physicist)
father about an aerobatics course I took recently and was scared of
being in any "600 G maneuvers." I suppressed a laugh and reassured him
no, no aerobatics on their flight, certainly no maneuvers of any kind at
that level.

David

N2310D wrote:
> "Dan Luke" > wrote in message
> ...
>> ...offers endless opportunities for screwing up the experience for them,
>> as I've demonstrated yet again.
>>
>
> I'm glad it ended up okay.
> I invited a friend to take a ride with me for his birthday present. His
> wife and 12-year-old daughter went along in the back seat. During the
> passenger brief, I pretty much explained stuff to everyone's satisfaction
> including some insightful questions from the youngster.
> After we were leveled off and trimmed out, I demonstrated some movements
> of the controls including, with permission a 'steep' turn, which did not go
> more than 45 degrees and got a giggle from the back seat and a request to do
> it again. I glanced at Mom and she was doing fine so I did one more to the
> other side. We flew over their house and I did a 360 to both sides.
> On the way back to the airport I gave the controls over to Bill and
> coached him through some gentle turns, nothing more than 10 degrees or so.
> Then, from the back seat came this young plaintive voice, "Is my daddy
> flying the airplane?"
> "Yes," I answered, "and he's doing a great job."
> Then came this shriek, followed by, " I DON'T WANT MY DADDY TO FLY IT!!"
>
>
>

[John Halpenny]

Walt wrote:
> Great story, Dan.
>
> I've never let a "newbie" handle the controls on takeoff -I'm too
> paranoid--, but last summer I took a friend's 15-year-old son on a
> flight. We took off out of Gallatin Field near Bozeman, MT and flew
> west to the Missouri confluence near Three Forks. Once at altitude I
> handed the controls over to him. He did great.
>
>

In my younger days, I had a job in a survey party, and spent three
summers in helicopters and bush planes. I never got to take the
controls... except one time.

I was in a Beaver floatplane with a pilot I had never met before, and
we spent the day moving gas drums to various small lakes. The Beaver
has a yoke attached to a central pedestal, and on the last leg of the
last flight the pilot mumbled something about doing his flight reports,
flipped the yoke over to my side, opened his clipboard and put his head
down. Well, I could handle this. I carefully steered straight and
level. There were some showers in front of us, and I turned right a bit
every so often to avoid them, but otherwise I thought I was on course.

After about 20 minutes, the pilot finished his work, looked up and
said "Where are we?" I had forgotten about the navigation part. This
area of Northern Alberta was nothing but tiny lakes, and navigation
consisted of moving your thumb along the map when passing over each
lake. I not only had not kept track, I was about 90 degrees off course
after avoiding the rain. Fortunately we did find ourselves and had
enough fuel to get back.

I never had another offer like that.

John Halpenny

[Robert Chambers]

He's from Switzerland, they tend to avoid anything controversial.

Morgans wrote:
>
> "Stefan" > wrote
>
>> Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
>> please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
>> stranger. To a stranger nonetheless who sits the first time in his
>> life in a small plane. And you don't just hand over the controls at
>> altitude (which admittedly I have done myself), but right on the
>> ground and you let him fly the take off. Then you let him fly a 180 at
>> low altitude. And all this *with a passenger in the back*!
>>
>> Yes, you screwed up royally. But for a different reason than you think.
>
>
> What is the big F'en problem, here?
>
> If the newbie happened to do it right, and it sounds like he did, there
> is no problem. If he starts to get outside of the expected flight
> parameters, you nudge and urge corrections, and if that doesn't work,
> you say "my plane."
>
> Do you think that he could not tell if something was happening that was
> a trend in the wrong direction? Do you think that everyone who takes
> the controls is going to horse them, and screw up? If that were the
> case, there would be far less new students. Perhaps that is the
> problem. People are so stuck on the fact that flying is for supermen,
> and themselves, and nobody else deserves the chance to prove themselves.
>
> So what difference does it make, if he is a instructor or not. I'm
> willing to place money on the fact that there are many people who are
> not certified flight instructors that are way better teachers than many
> of the certified flight instructors out there flying people and
> sometimes students with passengers around the sky. How many people
> here, got to do the first takeoff that they were in the plane, and the
> maneuvers following that, too? I'll bet over half got to do the
> landing, with plenty of coaching and a few corrections, too.
>
> I think your reaction is way, way over the top, on this one.
>
> Remember the adage of many examiners, about predicting the students
> abilities, and whether they will pass, or not? If you don't, it goes
> something like " I can tell if the student will be able to fly, and
> pass, while the plane is still being taxied out for takeoff."
>
> So he was able to tell that the new person had a good feel for the
> plane, right off the bat. It does not take a piece of paper with a
> bunch of initials on it to be able to do that.
>
> Good going, Allen. You may have just won another person over to our side.

[Mxsmanic]

Morgans writes:

> Perhaps that is the problem. People are so stuck on the
> fact that flying is for supermen, and themselves, and nobody else deserves the
> chance to prove themselves.

I've noticed that.

> I think your reaction is way, way over the top, on this one.

I've seen reactions like that quite frequently, too. People don't
like to admit that they may not be special.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Montblack]

("Dan Luke" wrote)
>> Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
>> please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
>> stranger.
>
> Where did you get the idea it was a stranger?


Nice save Dan :-)


Montblack

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Robert Chambers" > wrote in message
...
> He's from Switzerland, they tend to avoid anything controversial.

Like the sex change operations they have been doing for decades? <g>

Really, Stefan has been a good contributor, but I just think he missed the mark,
on this call.
--
Jim in NC

[Dan Luke]

"John Halpenny" wrote:

> After about 20 minutes, the pilot finished his work, looked up and
> said "Where are we?"

Haw!

Beauty.

[Mxsmanic]

Morgans writes:

> Like the sex change operations they have been doing for decades? <g>

Perhaps you are thinking of Sweden.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Ron Lee]

Ok Dan, did you get a picture of them and you in front of the plane?
If not redeem yourself...do it and post it.

Ron Lee

[Dan Luke]

"Ron Lee" wrote:

> Ok Dan, did you get a picture of them and you in front of the plane?

Nah, I screwed up & forgot the camera.

> If not redeem yourself...do it and post it.


IF M_ ever gives me another chance...

[Dudley Henriques]

Hi Dan;

You have broken the code for flying with newbies. It's really very simple
and every pilot should do it, but unfortunately, pilots not being perfect,
sometimes forget.
The main thing about first timers is anticipating their normal apprehension
and dealing with it PREEMPTIVELY!!!
This is the "secret" for dealing with all passenger issues.
Pilots should be especially aware of even the smallest detail and be
constantly alert to anything at all that might be upsetting to a new
passenger.
The normal procedure is to begin a flight with a newbie assuming
apprehension and "probe" just enough to verify first of all if apprehension
is indeed present, and if it is present, at what level.
The rest is simply devoting the time to make people feel comfortable in the
airplane and in the environment. Notice I mention TWO things here. The
airplane has noises and sounds that will be new to the first timer. These
should be anticipated and again handled PREEMPTIVELY. The environment can
also be an issue as it interacts with the airplane in flight. This should
also be dealt with PREEMPTIVELY as the flight progresses.
In short, a good pilot takes on the role of an active commentator and "tour
guide" so to speak when dealing with new people.
If pilots follow one single golden rule they will never go wrong in this
area. Doctors have the Hippocratic Oath that states "Do No Harm". Pilots
should take their own private oath to "See to it personally, that no one who
ever climbs into an airplane with them will be frightened by something that
pilot either did, or forgot to do to prevent it".
The handling of newbies is as much a responsibility for a pilot as the
preflight, and in fact, it has always been my personal policy when
instructing pilots, to make the issue of dealing with the matters I have
discussed here an active part of the preflight.
Dudley Henriques

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> ...offers endless opportunities for screwing up the experience for them,
> as I've demonstrated yet again.
>
> My business partner's 21-yr. old son has been hinting around for a few
> years that he wanted to try flying sometime. When he finally asked
> outright to take a flight, I was happy to agree, especially since he would
> be bringing along his supermodel-quality girlfriend.
>
> So T_ and M_ showed up at the airport Saturday afternoon. T_ was
> interested in everything that was happening on the ramp and M_ was
> stopping students and flight instructors in mid-sentence as she walked by.
> The weather was perfect and this was going to be great fun.
>
> After the walkaround and passenger briefing, I got my pax headsetted and
> buckled in and gave T_ a description of how the controls worked. I let
> him steer on the long taxi out to RWY 36. Cleared for takeoff, I let him
> control the yoke. He did fine on the rotation and climbout, so I let him
> make the climbing 180 deg. left turn to our departure heading. He did
> that fine, too. Once I got T_ trimmed out and flying level, I turned to
> M_ in the back seat to ask how she was doing.
>
> Ummm..., not so well: M_ had the look of someone who had just stared death
> in the face.
>
> " Doing OK, M_?"
>
> "Uh, better now," said M_, attempting a brave smile. "That turn was a
> little scary!"
>
> What M_ wasn't saying, of course, was that she had just spent a few
> seconds fearing for her life because an apparent lunatic had turned over
> control of an itty bitty airplane to her virtually clueless boyfriend, who
> promptly put it in a bank 500' from the ground.
>
> M_ brightened up a bit as the flight went along but she mentioned the
> scary departure turn a couple more times. I was cursing myself the whole
> way. I had really screwed it up by doing a wholly inadequate job of
> preparing my pax for what they were going to experience. As a result, I
> somehow doubt that I will have the pleasure of M_'s company on any future
> flights.
>
> Lesson learned: tell your newbie pax everything that is going to happen in
> advance. Be especially detailed about any plans for their controlling the
> airplane, and find out if they are going to be uncomfortable with anything
> you have planned.
>
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM
>
>

[Dan Luke]

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

> You have broken the code for flying with newbies. It's really very simple
> and every pilot should do it, but unfortunately, pilots not being perfect,
> sometimes forget.
> The main thing about first timers is anticipating their normal
> apprehension and dealing with it PREEMPTIVELY!!!
> This is the "secret" for dealing with all passenger issues.
> Pilots should be especially aware of even the smallest detail and be
> constantly alert to anything at all that might be upsetting to a new
> passenger.
> The normal procedure is to begin a flight with a newbie assuming
> apprehension and "probe" just enough to verify first of all if
> apprehension is indeed present, and if it is present, at what level.
> The rest is simply devoting the time to make people feel comfortable in
> the airplane and in the environment. Notice I mention TWO things here. The
> airplane has noises and sounds that will be new to the first timer. These
> should be anticipated and again handled PREEMPTIVELY. The environment can
> also be an issue as it interacts with the airplane in flight. This should
> also be dealt with PREEMPTIVELY as the flight progresses.
> In short, a good pilot takes on the role of an active commentator and
> "tour guide" so to speak when dealing with new people.
> If pilots follow one single golden rule they will never go wrong in this
> area. Doctors have the Hippocratic Oath that states "Do No Harm". Pilots
> should take their own private oath to "See to it personally, that no one
> who ever climbs into an airplane with them will be frightened by something
> that pilot either did, or forgot to do to prevent it".
> The handling of newbies is as much a responsibility for a pilot as the
> preflight, and in fact, it has always been my personal policy when
> instructing pilots, to make the issue of dealing with the matters I have
> discussed here an active part of the preflight.
> Dudley Henriques


I knew I could count on you, Dudley.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[gatt]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...

>> the interesting part is missing: where are the pics of M_?
>>
>> :-)
>
> Another screwup; I forgot the camera. ;(

Reminds me... I ordered my wife one of those bright red tanktops from
Sporty's that says "Remove Before Flight."

[Michael[_1_]]

Stefan wrote:
> Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
> please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
> stranger.

First - if you had bothered to read and comprehend his post, you would
know this is someone who had been hinting at wanting a ride for a long
time - thus by definition not a stranger but someone he has known for
years.

Second - having a flight instructor ticket is nothing special, and
unfortunately the CFI PTS does little (more like nothing) to
effectively test the ability to monitor an untrained person's flight
and recover from upsets, so the average CFI curriculum does little
(more like nothing) to teach this. This is a skill best learned
incrementally. There is no reason that any reasonably experienced
pilot shouldn't do what Dan did. In fact, that's how good flight
instructors are made - by allowing passengers to take progressively
more action on a flight. It starts with straight and level at
altitude, and eventually progresses to maneuvers, takeoffs, even
landings. That way, when you have that first paying student in the
plane who reasonably expects you to be comfortable with allowing him to
fly, you're not trying to learn it all at once.

> And all this *with a passenger in the back*!

Yeah, he really should have briefed the passenger better and let her
know what to expect. He knows that. Other than that, why not with a
passenger in the back? The incremental risk is really minimal, and
intro lessons are routinely done with passengers in the back - by
pilots with way less experience than Dan.

Michael
CFI - ASME, IA, G - as if it matters

[Dudley Henriques]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
> please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
> stranger. To a stranger nonetheless who sits the first time in his life in
> a small plane. And you don't just hand over the controls at altitude
> (which admittedly I have done myself), but right on the ground and you let
> him fly the take off. Then you let him fly a 180 at low altitude. And all
> this *with a passenger in the back*!
>
> Yes, you screwed up royally. But for a different reason than you think.
>
> Stefan

As Shakespeare said, "Much ado about nothing".

There was nothing "wrong" or dangerous in what Dan did Stefan. Pilots do
this all the time, and few of them are instructors. In fact, the first time
I went up for a ride, (AT-6G) I did what could be stretched into (if I was
REALLY stretching that is :-) a reasonable facsimile of a decent slow roll.
Pilots each have to exercise responsibility if and when they hand over the
controls to a passenger as to where and when during the flight this
"changeover" takes place. A pilot letting the front seat pax handle the
controls for a while with the airplane at altitude in cruise poses no
particular threat to anyone. What's REALLY important is that the pilot in
command of the flight not allow ANYTHING to occur during that flight that
either frightens the people flying with that pilot, or endangers the flight
in any way.
Hell, half the pilots I know who aren't instructors can't wait to let people
fly their airplanes during a flight. That single thing has probably been
responsible for more people learning to fly than anything else I can
remember :-)
Dudley Henriques

[Walt]

Here are couple of pics of my daughter flying the Archer last summer.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/weaver1308/sets/72057594074697690/

I did the takeoff, but she flew the climbout and pretty much all the
way from Bozeman to Great Falls. She's flown with me since she was four
years old. Doesn't yet want to spend the time and commitment it takes
to get her ticket, but I'm comfortable with her flying the airplane.

She does a good job. She could probably handle the takeoff too, if I
let her.

On our day into Great Falls she flew the airplane all the way to short
final, airspeed pegged at 70 knots. She also handled the radios, which
is a story in itself.

I told her to tell Great Falls Approach (a TRSA, actually) that we were
inbound from the south, over the Smith River, with Romeo. She looked at
me kind of funny, then keyed the mike and told the controller, "Uh,
Great Falls, Archer three-niner-mike is 9 south, over the Smith River,
and we have Rambo on board".

Then she gave me this look like, "Why did you make me say that??".

There was a short pause, then the controller came back: "Roger, you
have Rambo on board. Do you have an instructor with you too?".

My daughter: "No, but my dad's with me".

Controller: "Good. Continue".

It was a fun flight.

We've had lots of other flights like that. Lots of fun.

--Walt


Dudley Henriques wrote:
> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
> > please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
> > stranger. To a stranger nonetheless who sits the first time in his life in
> > a small plane. And you don't just hand over the controls at altitude
> > (which admittedly I have done myself), but right on the ground and you let
> > him fly the take off. Then you let him fly a 180 at low altitude. And all
> > this *with a passenger in the back*!
> >
> > Yes, you screwed up royally. But for a different reason than you think.
> >
> > Stefan
>
> As Shakespeare said, "Much ado about nothing".
>
> There was nothing "wrong" or dangerous in what Dan did Stefan. Pilots do
> this all the time, and few of them are instructors. In fact, the first time
> I went up for a ride, (AT-6G) I did what could be stretched into (if I was
> REALLY stretching that is :-) a reasonable facsimile of a decent slow roll.
> Pilots each have to exercise responsibility if and when they hand over the
> controls to a passenger as to where and when during the flight this
> "changeover" takes place. A pilot letting the front seat pax handle the
> controls for a while with the airplane at altitude in cruise poses no
> particular threat to anyone. What's REALLY important is that the pilot in
> command of the flight not allow ANYTHING to occur during that flight that
> either frightens the people flying with that pilot, or endangers the flight
> in any way.
> Hell, half the pilots I know who aren't instructors can't wait to let people
> fly their airplanes during a flight. That single thing has probably been
> responsible for more people learning to fly than anything else I can
> remember :-)
> Dudley Henriques

[Dudley Henriques]

Looks like a beautiful young lady you have there Walt.
This was pretty much how I started too. A few rides with my father abd his
friends, then practically raised by an Air National Guard fighter squadron,
and the rest is history.....well, a good story anyway :-)))
Tell her I said "hi" and to keep at it! :-)
Dudley Henriques


"Walt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Here are couple of pics of my daughter flying the Archer last summer.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/weaver1308/sets/72057594074697690/
>
> I did the takeoff, but she flew the climbout and pretty much all the
> way from Bozeman to Great Falls. She's flown with me since she was four
> years old. Doesn't yet want to spend the time and commitment it takes
> to get her ticket, but I'm comfortable with her flying the airplane.
>
> She does a good job. She could probably handle the takeoff too, if I
> let her.
>
> On our day into Great Falls she flew the airplane all the way to short
> final, airspeed pegged at 70 knots. She also handled the radios, which
> is a story in itself.
>
> I told her to tell Great Falls Approach (a TRSA, actually) that we were
> inbound from the south, over the Smith River, with Romeo. She looked at
> me kind of funny, then keyed the mike and told the controller, "Uh,
> Great Falls, Archer three-niner-mike is 9 south, over the Smith River,
> and we have Rambo on board".
>
> Then she gave me this look like, "Why did you make me say that??".
>
> There was a short pause, then the controller came back: "Roger, you
> have Rambo on board. Do you have an instructor with you too?".
>
> My daughter: "No, but my dad's with me".
>
> Controller: "Good. Continue".
>
> It was a fun flight.
>
> We've had lots of other flights like that. Lots of fun.
>
> --Walt
>
>
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> "Stefan" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
>> > please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
>> > stranger. To a stranger nonetheless who sits the first time in his life
>> > in
>> > a small plane. And you don't just hand over the controls at altitude
>> > (which admittedly I have done myself), but right on the ground and you
>> > let
>> > him fly the take off. Then you let him fly a 180 at low altitude. And
>> > all
>> > this *with a passenger in the back*!
>> >
>> > Yes, you screwed up royally. But for a different reason than you think.
>> >
>> > Stefan
>>
>> As Shakespeare said, "Much ado about nothing".
>>
>> There was nothing "wrong" or dangerous in what Dan did Stefan. Pilots do
>> this all the time, and few of them are instructors. In fact, the first
>> time
>> I went up for a ride, (AT-6G) I did what could be stretched into (if I
>> was
>> REALLY stretching that is :-) a reasonable facsimile of a decent slow
>> roll.
>> Pilots each have to exercise responsibility if and when they hand over
>> the
>> controls to a passenger as to where and when during the flight this
>> "changeover" takes place. A pilot letting the front seat pax handle the
>> controls for a while with the airplane at altitude in cruise poses no
>> particular threat to anyone. What's REALLY important is that the pilot in
>> command of the flight not allow ANYTHING to occur during that flight that
>> either frightens the people flying with that pilot, or endangers the
>> flight
>> in any way.
>> Hell, half the pilots I know who aren't instructors can't wait to let
>> people
>> fly their airplanes during a flight. That single thing has probably been
>> responsible for more people learning to fly than anything else I can
>> remember :-)
>> Dudley Henriques
>

[Jay Beckman]

Walt,

Great pics...

I sure wish I'd had someone to take me flying at that age...how great for
you both!

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Walt]

Thanks Dudley, I'll tell her you said hi. She's a good kid.

--Walt


Dudley Henriques wrote:
> Looks like a beautiful young lady you have there Walt.
> This was pretty much how I started too. A few rides with my father abd his
> friends, then practically raised by an Air National Guard fighter squadron,
> and the rest is history.....well, a good story anyway :-)))
> Tell her I said "hi" and to keep at it! :-)
> Dudley Henriques
>
>
> "Walt" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Here are couple of pics of my daughter flying the Archer last summer.
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/weaver1308/sets/72057594074697690/
> >
> > I did the takeoff, but she flew the climbout and pretty much all the
> > way from Bozeman to Great Falls. She's flown with me since she was four
> > years old. Doesn't yet want to spend the time and commitment it takes
> > to get her ticket, but I'm comfortable with her flying the airplane.
> >
> > She does a good job. She could probably handle the takeoff too, if I
> > let her.
> >
> > On our day into Great Falls she flew the airplane all the way to short
> > final, airspeed pegged at 70 knots. She also handled the radios, which
> > is a story in itself.
> >
> > I told her to tell Great Falls Approach (a TRSA, actually) that we were
> > inbound from the south, over the Smith River, with Romeo. She looked at
> > me kind of funny, then keyed the mike and told the controller, "Uh,
> > Great Falls, Archer three-niner-mike is 9 south, over the Smith River,
> > and we have Rambo on board".
> >
> > Then she gave me this look like, "Why did you make me say that??".
> >
> > There was a short pause, then the controller came back: "Roger, you
> > have Rambo on board. Do you have an instructor with you too?".
> >
> > My daughter: "No, but my dad's with me".
> >
> > Controller: "Good. Continue".
> >
> > It was a fun flight.
> >
> > We've had lots of other flights like that. Lots of fun.
> >
> > --Walt
> >
> >
> > Dudley Henriques wrote:
> >> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Have I got this right? You are not a flight instructor. (If you are,
> >> > please correct me.) Despite this, you hand over the controls to a
> >> > stranger. To a stranger nonetheless who sits the first time in his life
> >> > in
> >> > a small plane. And you don't just hand over the controls at altitude
> >> > (which admittedly I have done myself), but right on the ground and you
> >> > let
> >> > him fly the take off. Then you let him fly a 180 at low altitude. And
> >> > all
> >> > this *with a passenger in the back*!
> >> >
> >> > Yes, you screwed up royally. But for a different reason than you think.
> >> >
> >> > Stefan
> >>
> >> As Shakespeare said, "Much ado about nothing".
> >>
> >> There was nothing "wrong" or dangerous in what Dan did Stefan. Pilots do
> >> this all the time, and few of them are instructors. In fact, the first
> >> time
> >> I went up for a ride, (AT-6G) I did what could be stretched into (if I
> >> was
> >> REALLY stretching that is :-) a reasonable facsimile of a decent slow
> >> roll.
> >> Pilots each have to exercise responsibility if and when they hand over
> >> the
> >> controls to a passenger as to where and when during the flight this
> >> "changeover" takes place. A pilot letting the front seat pax handle the
> >> controls for a while with the airplane at altitude in cruise poses no
> >> particular threat to anyone. What's REALLY important is that the pilot in
> >> command of the flight not allow ANYTHING to occur during that flight that
> >> either frightens the people flying with that pilot, or endangers the
> >> flight
> >> in any way.
> >> Hell, half the pilots I know who aren't instructors can't wait to let
> >> people
> >> fly their airplanes during a flight. That single thing has probably been
> >> responsible for more people learning to fly than anything else I can
> >> remember :-)
> >> Dudley Henriques
> >

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> There was nothing "wrong" or dangerous in what Dan did Stefan. Pilots do
> this all the time, and few of them are instructors. In fact, the first time
> I went up for a ride, (AT-6G) I did what could be stretched into (if I was
> REALLY stretching that is :-) a reasonable facsimile of a decent slow roll.


My first time at the controls was with a Navy recruiter in a T-34B after I took
the NFO test and scored reasonably well. We took off after a safety briefing
that left me with the impression that if anything went wrong, well, it'd been a
good life. I mean, the pilot was going to get out OK but I sure as hell wasn't
going to remember a word of what he told me.

That being done, we took off and the fellow showed me what an airplane could do.
It went up and down (we looped) and it went around (we rolled). So far so
good... he probably did several other things but all I really remember was this
was the first time I'd ever experienced G in an airplane. I didn't disgrace
either myself or my ancestors by redecorating the cockpit.

Then the fellow let me take the controls. We went up and down (gingerly) and
turned left and right (gingerly). Now that we were straight and level (more or
less) I began to get a little green around the gills.

I was never so glad to get down on the ground. Of course, I claimed the ride
was the greatest experience of my life as I wiped the sweat from my brow and
swallowed frequently. But I didn't disgrace myself.

Here it is some 30 years later and the only time I've ever gotten nauseated in
an airplane since was riding in the back of an Arrow while somebody else flew
it. But I've never puked. There's a few times I almost **** my pants but
that's a different story.

Now, with newbies, I give my best airline ride. I figure any fool can jerk an
airplane around but it takes talent to be smooth. But I don't explain
everything in advance... I just do what needs to be done and answer questions as
they come up. I haven't lost a passenger yet or had anybody refuse to ride with
me a second time.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:49:25 +0000, Ron Lee wrote:

> If something seems odd don't dance around the
> bush...state what you are thinking.

The kid did that. It wasn't an immediate threat, so he accepted the
response. As the threat became more immediate, he inquired again.

He sounds very level-headed, in fact. I like the "I really don't want to
die today" comment. No yelling, but designed to get through to an
elk-gazing pilot.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 02:08:20 +0000, David Kazdan wrote:

> "600 G maneuvers."

You're using those new spars made from Impossibilium, I see.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:08:36 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote:

> I've seen reactions like that quite frequently, too. People don't like to
> admit that they may not be special.

We are special. It's not for what we can do, but what we choose to do.
Anyone is free to make the same choice. What makes us special is that we
choose properly.

(not that I'm biased or anything {8^)

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:49:12 -0700, Jay Beckman wrote:

> I sure wish I'd had someone to take me flying at that age...how great for
> you both!

My wife, my 4 year-old son and I feel fortunate that we can share aviation
with him. We're all lucky!

And we've a 1 year old who is already zooming toy airplanes around the
house, getting ready for his first ride (I need to remember to start him
on the headset indoctrination program I invented for his older brother).

But I was at a party a couple of nights ago where there happened to be a
pair of lapsed pilots. One has kids! So sad, the opportunity being
wasted.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:57:37 -0500, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> hen the fellow let me take the controls. We went up and down (gingerly)
> and turned left and right (gingerly). Now that we were straight and level
> (more or less) I began to get a little green around the gills.

That's pretty odd. One sure-fire cure for nausea I've found is to have
the ill passenger take the controls. The only time it didn't work is
when the passenger in question refused.

This is the first time I've heard of someone feeling ill from taking the
controls.

Any idea why?

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:56:05 -0500, Dudley Henriques wrote:

> Pilots should
> be especially aware of even the smallest detail and be constantly alert to
> anything at all that might be upsetting to a new passenger.

What you should definitely not do is say something like "oh, damn" and
pull the power. Even if you're climbing through your assigned altitude,
that's still not a good way to generate repeat business.

Fortunately, I've an understanding friend (who pretends to believe lies
like "I meant to do that" {8^).

- Andrew

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/13/06 12:26, Andrew Gideon wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:57:37 -0500, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
>> hen the fellow let me take the controls. We went up and down (gingerly)
>> and turned left and right (gingerly). Now that we were straight and level
>> (more or less) I began to get a little green around the gills.
>
> That's pretty odd. One sure-fire cure for nausea I've found is to have
> the ill passenger take the controls. The only time it didn't work is
> when the passenger in question refused.
>
> This is the first time I've heard of someone feeling ill from taking the
> controls.
>
> Any idea why?
>
> - Andrew
>

When I was first practicing maneuvers (especially steep turns), I would
get really airsick - I remember asking my instructor to leave that practice
for the end of the flight, so I could get on the ground quickly after we
finished them. - I was at the controls the entire time.

I did get over it, though, but it took a while.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Jose[_1_]]

> (I need to remember to start him
> on the headset indoctrination program I invented for his older brother).

Do tell!

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
>> hen the fellow let me take the controls. We went up and down (gingerly)
>> and turned left and right (gingerly). Now that we were straight and level
>> (more or less) I began to get a little green around the gills.
>
> That's pretty odd. One sure-fire cure for nausea I've found is to have
> the ill passenger take the controls. The only time it didn't work is
> when the passenger in question refused.
>
> This is the first time I've heard of someone feeling ill from taking the
> controls.
>
> Any idea why?


I don't think it had anything to do with me taking the controls. I think it was
the end of the aerobatics (and the adrenalin rush) that caused it. I have a
mental image of fluid swishing around the semicircular canals in my inner ear
during the aerobatics, but at least it agreed with what was happening. Then we
were straight and level, but the fluid was still swishing around. The
incongruity caused the nausea.

At least that's my theory. It may just be so much crap.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/13/06 14:07, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>>> hen the fellow let me take the controls. We went up and down (gingerly)
>>> and turned left and right (gingerly). Now that we were straight and level
>>> (more or less) I began to get a little green around the gills.
>>
>> That's pretty odd. One sure-fire cure for nausea I've found is to have
>> the ill passenger take the controls. The only time it didn't work is
>> when the passenger in question refused.
>>
>> This is the first time I've heard of someone feeling ill from taking the
>> controls.
>>
>> Any idea why?
>
>
> I don't think it had anything to do with me taking the controls. I think it was
> the end of the aerobatics (and the adrenalin rush) that caused it. I have a
> mental image of fluid swishing around the semicircular canals in my inner ear
> during the aerobatics, but at least it agreed with what was happening. Then we
> were straight and level, but the fluid was still swishing around. The
> incongruity caused the nausea.
>
> At least that's my theory. It may just be so much crap.

Maybe, but craps been known to cause nausea as well ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mxsmanic]

Mark Hansen writes:

> When I was first practicing maneuvers (especially steep turns), I would
> get really airsick - I remember asking my instructor to leave that practice
> for the end of the flight, so I could get on the ground quickly after we
> finished them. - I was at the controls the entire time.

Did you turn your head in banks so that you were still normal to the
aircraft, or did you tilt it so that it was actually upright and the
aircraft tilted below you?

And did this change after you got over the airsickness?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:23:29 +0000, Jose wrote:

>> (I need to remember to start him
>> on the headset indoctrination program I invented for his older brother).
>
> Do tell!

Alex was flying by the time he was six-months old. As his motor skills
developed, the headset became an issue (because he'd remove it).

So I gave him a David Clark (think: robust) as a toy. He'd wear it while
he rode his rocking plane (a "rocking horse" in the shape of a plane
instead of the four-footed-non-aviating-beast-of-transport) and played
with his toy yoke.

After a while of that, he wouldn't want the headset removed much less take
it off himself in flight.

- Andrew

P.S. The DC headset survived.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:07:08 -0500, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> I don't think it had anything to do with me taking the controls.

Ah. Thanks...

Andrew

[Robert Chambers]

I've been lucky in that I've never suffered from motion sickness being
it in a car, on a boat or in a plane. One thing that surprised me was I
was acting as a safety pilot for a PP who was an instrument student. He
wanted to practice some under the hood and fly some approaches. The
airport was busy when we launched so I suggested we head to the practice
area and do some steep turns. We did the steep turns, very well from
what I saw and gave approach a call to request a few approaches. On the
way towards the FAF on a vector the student asked me if he could take
off the foggles for a bit as the steep turns had left him a bit queasy.
It didn't take long to get to the FAF at which point the foggles went
back on and he flew 3 decent ILS's and a reasonable VOR to a landing.

It's been a few years since I was undergoing my IR training so you
forget that some of this stuff can be a bit rough on the inner ear until
you've got more hood hours under your belt.

Experience is a great teacher.

Robert

Mark Hansen wrote:
> On 12/13/06 12:26, Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:57:37 -0500, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>>
>>
>>>hen the fellow let me take the controls. We went up and down (gingerly)
>>>and turned left and right (gingerly). Now that we were straight and level
>>>(more or less) I began to get a little green around the gills.
>>
>>That's pretty odd. One sure-fire cure for nausea I've found is to have
>>the ill passenger take the controls. The only time it didn't work is
>>when the passenger in question refused.
>>
>>This is the first time I've heard of someone feeling ill from taking the
>>controls.
>>
>>Any idea why?
>>
>> - Andrew
>>
>
>
> When I was first practicing maneuvers (especially steep turns), I would
> get really airsick - I remember asking my instructor to leave that practice
> for the end of the flight, so I could get on the ground quickly after we
> finished them. - I was at the controls the entire time.
>
> I did get over it, though, but it took a while.
>
>
>

[Robert Chambers]

Mark Hansen wrote:

>>At least that's my theory. It may just be so much crap.
>
>
> Maybe, but craps been known to cause nausea as well ;-)
>
>

Spoken by someone that sounds like they've changed a diaper or two.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Robert Chambers wrote:
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>
>>> At least that's my theory. It may just be so much crap.
>>
>>
>> Maybe, but craps been known to cause nausea as well ;-)
>>
>>
>
> Spoken by someone that sounds like they've changed a diaper or two.



Or stood downwind from me.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[nrp]

My rules for newby flights -
1) Only in smooth air
2) Plan a short flight (make it too short)
3) Don't hand the controls over to a newby if there is another newby on
board.
4) No banks over 20 degrees.

[Stefan]

Morgans schrieb:

> What is the big F'en problem, here?

Yes, it ended well. But not everything's well that ends well. The
accident database is full of things which happened to end well 999 times
and ended as a statistic the 1000th.

There are several problems.

First problem, it's just plain illegal. Agreed, this isn't much of an
issue to me, either. I've been doing many illegal things myself. Still,
it is illegal.

Second problem, and this *is* an issue: He let the passenger handle the
controls right at the first take off. I have let passengers handle the
controls myself (yes, illegally), but always at altitude and when
workload was low. Still illegal, but no big problem. But right at the
start, it *is* an issue. This is one of the most dangerous moments of a
flight, workload is extremely high, and if the passenger screws up,
there is very little time to react. I doubt a non-instructor would be
able to save the day if the passenger just pulled back the yoke with
force, for example, or if a strong crosswind gust hits the plane at the
moment of rotation, as a second example. I can think of ten other
possibilities which overtax a non-instructor. BTW, no instructor I know
would let a student fly a take off without first having checked at safe
altitude how he handles the controls.

And third problem, there was a third party involved. I have no problem
with two guys who agree to try something stupid. If the two talk it
over, if both are aware of the risk and if both, fully informed, agree
to take that risk together, then I have no problem with it. I've been
doing this myself. But no way to involve other persons!

Stefan

[Thomas Borchert]

Stefan,

> First problem, it's just plain illegal.
>

Uhm, I'm afraid you are wrong. This is not illegal in the US. The word
"command" in PIC is taken seriously in the US - the PIC can decide what
happens onboard, including who is manipulating the controls. A PIC in
the US could sit in the baggage compartment.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Stefan]

Thomas Borchert schrieb:

> Uhm, I'm afraid you are wrong. This is not illegal in the US. The word
> "command" in PIC is taken seriously in the US - the PIC can decide what
> happens onboard, including who is manipulating the controls. A PIC in
> the US could sit in the baggage compartment.

I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,
except if needed, of course. But always eager to learn something.

(Actually, I thought it to be legal myself earlier, deducing from the
sea laws. Then I've learnt that in aircraft, it is not, at least not
over here.)

Stefan

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/13/06 14:29, Andrew Gideon wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:23:29 +0000, Jose wrote:
>
>>> (I need to remember to start him
>>> on the headset indoctrination program I invented for his older brother).
>>
>> Do tell!
>
> Alex was flying by the time he was six-months old. As his motor skills
> developed, the headset became an issue (because he'd remove it).
>
> So I gave him a David Clark (think: robust) as a toy. He'd wear it while
> he rode his rocking plane (a "rocking horse" in the shape of a plane
> instead of the four-footed-non-aviating-beast-of-transport) and played
> with his toy yoke.
>
> After a while of that, he wouldn't want the headset removed much less take
> it off himself in flight.
>
> - Andrew
>
> P.S. The DC headset survived.
>

They seem to be built like tanks. I just watched the end of "The Water Boy"
with Adam Sandler, and saw that the evil coach was wearing a DC headset on
the sidelines ;-)

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/13/06 16:28, Robert Chambers wrote:
>
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>
>>>At least that's my theory. It may just be so much crap.
>>
>>
>> Maybe, but craps been known to cause nausea as well ;-)
>>
>>
>
> Spoken by someone that sounds like they've changed a diaper or two.

Whew... there should be a law against those "WMD"s ;-\

[Newps]

Stefan wrote:

> Thomas Borchert schrieb:
>
>> Uhm, I'm afraid you are wrong. This is not illegal in the US. The word
>> "command" in PIC is taken seriously in the US - the PIC can decide
>> what happens onboard, including who is manipulating the controls. A
>> PIC in the US could sit in the baggage compartment.
>
>
> I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,

He may, at his discretion. Want to get a good discussion going, tell
them you're going to let your kid fly but you'll log the time. Gets the
logbook nazis all in a snit.

[Jose[_1_]]

> I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person, except if needed, of course. But always eager to learn something.

In the US, there is no rule prohibiting that action. It is legal. If
there is an accident, there is always the universal "careless and
reckless" clause, but its use does not imply that =all= cases of turning
over the contorls would be careless and reckless. Only that this
particular (hypothetical) case, which =did= result in a crash, was.

One can clearly be careful and prudent when handing over the controls,
and one can be careless and reckless. This is true of any action.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[mad8]

on my first flight my instructor promised me that he would knock me out
if i didn't release the controls after he told me to :)

Mark Levin wrote:
> On 14-Dec-2006, Stefan > wrote:
>
> > > What is the big F'en problem, here?
> >
> > Yes, it ended well. But not everything's well that ends well. The
> > accident database is full of things which happened to end well 999 times
> > and ended as a statistic the 1000th.
> >
> > There are several problems.
>
> The only real problem I see with this flight was that no "I've got the
> controls" protocol was worked out beforehand. Of course it probably was and
> just omitted by the original poster. If I was letting a passenger take
> controls during takeoff (something that I personally would not do), I would
> want to make certain that if something happened where I needed to take the
> controls NOW that the passenger would release the controls to me NOW.
>
> I use to fly with a friend pretty often and would let him take controls at
> altitude whenever he cared to. He knew that when I said "I've got the
> controls" that meant hands in lap feet on floor.
>
> I'm surprised the passenger had no issue w/right rudder during the takeoff
> roll and rotation. Left turning tendency certainly isn't something most
> non-pilots expect.
>
> ml

[Mxsmanic]

Stefan writes:

> First problem, it's just plain illegal.

It's not illegal in the U.S. As long as you have a pilot in command
who is licensed to fly, he can allow other people (including
non-pilots) to control the aircraft.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Stefan writes:

> I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,
> except if needed, of course.

He may hand over the controls to anyone. He is responsible for
whatever happens, but he is not required to be the person actually
controlling the aircraft.

And I think this is a good thing.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote

> I don't think it had anything to do with me taking the controls. I think it
> was the end of the aerobatics (and the adrenalin rush) that caused it. I have
> a mental image of fluid swishing around the semicircular canals in my inner
> ear during the aerobatics, but at least it agreed with what was happening.
> Then we were straight and level, but the fluid was still swishing around. The
> incongruity caused the nausea.
>
> At least that's my theory. It may just be so much crap.+++++++++++++++----

Could be. Here's another one.

I was sailboating (25 footer) on the Western end of Lake Erie. Less then 18 feet
deep, in most places. Dad and me with the rest of the family along, on our
first year with the boat.

A sudden squall line blew up, with winds clocked at over 60 knots, and that was
on land, and before it got to us. We were too far from land to get to shelter
in time. Waves, we estimated, were greater than 12 feet, with not more than 50
feet, crest to crest. Very steep waves, indeed. We only had limited choices
with our sails (no storm jib, and only a single reef point on the main) and soon
the motor was not enough to keep us into wind, quartering the waves, even with
just bare poles. The only option was to throw out the anchor, with 100 feet of
line. It held, and surprisingly, it did not pull the cleats out of the bow.
O'Day makes one tough little boat, we decided after that!

Side note to the people that like sailing. Immediately after this experience,
we had two more reef points put into the main sail, and purchased a 30% jib, and
a sea anchor. The sea anchor is basically a parachute for the water, to keep
the boat correctly oriented with the wind, as it blows along with the storm.

I have never been sick from motion, before this. Everyone on the boat was sick
as a dog, except for my brother. He sat and concentrated on the horizon, and
willed himself to not get sick.

He didn't. Almost.

When the storm finally slacked off, the waves went back down to two to three
footers again, just as quickly as they came up. We got underway, and he finally
relaxed, and stopped concentrating on the self control, and you guessed it. He
finally lost his lunch.

My theory is that it all goes back to will controlling the sensations. While
you were doing the acro, you were no doubt concentrating on not being sick.
Afterward, you relaxed, and the disorientation done before finally did it's
work.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
--
Jim in NC

[Robert Chambers]

That's the key.. over there. There are more laws over there to tell you
how to behave than there are here. But never fear, this country is
catching up by adding laws to take away from personal responsibility.

For now though it's perfectly legal (in the U.S.)

Stefan wrote:
> Thomas Borchert schrieb:
>
>> Uhm, I'm afraid you are wrong. This is not illegal in the US. The word
>> "command" in PIC is taken seriously in the US - the PIC can decide
>> what happens onboard, including who is manipulating the controls. A
>> PIC in the US could sit in the baggage compartment.
>
>
> I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,
> except if needed, of course. But always eager to learn something.
>
> (Actually, I thought it to be legal myself earlier, deducing from the
> sea laws. Then I've learnt that in aircraft, it is not, at least not
> over here.)
>
> Stefan

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Morgans wrote:
> A sudden squall line blew up, with winds clocked at over 60 knots, and that
> was on land, and before it got to us. We were too far from land to get to
> shelter in time. Waves, we estimated, were greater than 12 feet, with not
> more than 50 feet, crest to crest.

<=== clipped for brevity ===>

> My theory is that it all goes back to will controlling the sensations. While
> you were doing the acro, you were no doubt concentrating on not being sick.
> Afterward, you relaxed, and the disorientation done before finally did it's
> work.


My first career was as a dive instructor and I've been out in 12 foot seas
myself, although in a bigger (35') boat. I have never been either airsick or
seasick, though I felt seasick my first time out in the Atlantic (6' seas in a
24' boat). That first time out on the water others got sick and so I took many
photos of them chumming the water, laughing as I clicked away. After a while
the motion got to me and sheer willpower prevented me from feeding the fish
myself. I knew that had I disgraced myself, I'd never hear the end of it,
especially considering how merciless I'd been when the shoe was on the other
foot.

For me, the secret to avoiding seasickness is 1) take an antiemetic the night
before and then again at breakfast; 2) eat a light, non-greasy breakfast but
definitely eat something; 3) stay away from the stern of the boat where diesel
fumes come boiling over the gunwhale; 4) stay out in the breeze no matter how
hard it's raining or how hot it is; 5) never look down; 6) sheer willpower.

In the airplane, I hadn't felt any nausea during the aerobatics... it didn't
come on until we were straight and level again and it persisted for a couple of
hours after the flight. But I didn't disgrace myself or my father (also an
airman). I use most of the anti-seasick methods to help me out (except the
drugs). I make the cockpit cool and have the air blowing right into my face. I
make sure my last meal wasn't a burrito, etc.

In my T-34 flight, will power played a part, but only in the last 15 minutes or
so of flight. I honestly didn't feel any nausea before that.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[mad8]

does anybody know where the regulation is? i can't find it in the FAR
but then again, i'm not anywhere near an expert

Robert Chambers wrote:
> That's the key.. over there. There are more laws over there to tell you
> how to behave than there are here. But never fear, this country is
> catching up by adding laws to take away from personal responsibility.
>
> For now though it's perfectly legal (in the U.S.)
>
> Stefan wrote:
> > Thomas Borchert schrieb:
> >
> >> Uhm, I'm afraid you are wrong. This is not illegal in the US. The word
> >> "command" in PIC is taken seriously in the US - the PIC can decide
> >> what happens onboard, including who is manipulating the controls. A
> >> PIC in the US could sit in the baggage compartment.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure he may hand over the controls to an unqualified person,
> > except if needed, of course. But always eager to learn something.
> >
> > (Actually, I thought it to be legal myself earlier, deducing from the
> > sea laws. Then I've learnt that in aircraft, it is not, at least not
> > over here.)
> >
> > Stefan

[John Halpenny]

Morgans wrote:

<snip>


> My theory is that it all goes back to will controlling the sensations. While
> you were doing the acro, you were no doubt concentrating on not being sick.
> Afterward, you relaxed, and the disorientation done before finally did it's
> work.

I have my own sailing story that says much the same thing.

I was racing in a 16 foot Albacore on Lake Ontario and we had been
bouncing around all morning during the first race with no ill effects.
Then they called a lunch break while we basically bobbed around and
nibbled a bit. Both I and the fellow with me were very queasy, although
we did managed to hold lunch down... barely. At the start of the next
race we were focussed on lining up and sailing for the line and we both
felt better. However, the start was called back, and during the 20
minutes before the next one we were both queasy again.

I am prone to motion sickness, and the best thing I have found is to
get my mind as far out of the vehicle as possible.

John Halpenny

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Mark Levin" > wrote

> I'm surprised the passenger had no issue w/right rudder during the takeoff
> roll and rotation. Left turning tendency certainly isn't something most
> non-pilots expect.

Could be well read, could be that he just has good observation/hand-eye
coordination, and a natural feel.

You hear that from time to time when talking about a pilot, and not just a
"blowing smoke up the *ss" type of comment, either.

None-the-less, I think it is entirely possible to observe and correctly react to
the actions of another's flying, while remaining safe.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Duniho]

"mad8" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> does anybody know where the regulation is? i can't find it in the FAR
> but then again, i'm not anywhere near an expert

There is no regulation. It's not prohibited, so there's no regulation that
says it's prohibited. The absence of such a regulation is how you know it's
not prohibited.

[Mxsmanic]

mad8 writes:

> does anybody know where the regulation is? i can't find it in the FAR
> but then again, i'm not anywhere near an expert

There isn't any. It's the _absence_ of a specific prohibition that
makes it legal. There has to be a licensed pilot in command on board
the aircraft, who takes responsibility for operation of that aircraft,
but nothing in the regulations requires him or her to actually be at
the controls ... which means that it is legal for anyone to control
the plane.

I believe it is indeed inherited from maritime law, wherein the
captain of a vessel is master and commander of that vessel with very
broad authority.

Note that refusing to obey the commands of the pilot in command would
be mutiny. So if the PIC tells a passenger to give up the controls
and the latter refuses to do so, it's a felony.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:29:52 -0600, "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>...offers endless opportunities for screwing up the experience for them, as
>I've demonstrated yet again.
>
>My business partner's 21-yr. old son has been hinting around for a few years
>that he wanted to try flying sometime. When he finally asked outright to
>take a flight, I was happy to agree, especially since he would be bringing
>along his supermodel-quality girlfriend.
>
>So T_ and M_ showed up at the airport Saturday afternoon. T_ was interested
>in everything that was happening on the ramp and M_ was stopping students
>and flight instructors in mid-sentence as she walked by. The weather was
>perfect and this was going to be great fun.
>
>After the walkaround and passenger briefing, I got my pax headsetted and
>buckled in and gave T_ a description of how the controls worked. I let him
>steer on the long taxi out to RWY 36. Cleared for takeoff, I let him
>control the yoke. He did fine on the rotation and climbout, so I let him
>make the climbing 180 deg. left turn to our departure heading. He did that
>fine, too. Once I got T_ trimmed out and flying level, I turned to M_ in
>the back seat to ask how she was doing.
>
>Ummm..., not so well: M_ had the look of someone who had just stared death
>in the face.
>
>" Doing OK, M_?"

I have a short story based on real experiences of real people and
pilots although they may be composites of multiple flights. The names
are changed to protect the innocent. Any one who has been around this
NG for a while will recognize at least a couple of the situations.<:-)
and not they are not all my experiences.

http://www.rogerhalstead.com/flight.htm

Although this is from 95 I started a series about 2 or 3 years earlier
for our Barstow Aeroclub which was an airport support group. This is
prior to EAA Chapter 1093 forming.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote

> My first career was as a dive instructor and I've been out in 12 foot seas
> myself, although in a bigger (35') boat.

12 foot seas in deep water is a lot different than in 18' deep water. The
steepness of the wave, because of how close the waves are to each other makes a
huge difference.

12 waves on the ocean is just starting to be good sailing. On Western Lake
Erie, 12 foot makes for ...

Not so good! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Morgans wrote:
> 12 waves on the ocean is just starting to be good sailing. On Western Lake
> Erie, 12 foot makes for ...
>
> Not so good! <g>


I don't have any fresh water experience to judge from but I can tell you I found
the seas plenty exciting, especially as I was up on the flying bridge hanging on
for dear life. If I went below I'd have to smell puke, which is similar to
yawning. One person does it; everybody wants to...



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[TxSrv]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> ...
> I believe it is indeed inherited from maritime law, wherein
> the captain of a vessel is master and commander of that vessel
> with very broad authority.
>
> Note that refusing to obey the commands of the pilot in
> command would be mutiny. So if the PIC tells a passenger to
> give up the controls and the latter refuses to do so, it's a
> felony.

Oh, my. A private aircraft flight, not involving terrorism? A
federal criminal statute may exist, so if so, please cite it for
us, to prove you know how to research and understand the law.
Cite two numbers with "USC" in the middle. Forget state law; a
generic statute should fit, but it has nothing specifically to do
with pilots, airplanes, or maritime law.

F--

[Jim Stewart]

TxSrv wrote:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> ...
>> I believe it is indeed inherited from maritime law, wherein
>> the captain of a vessel is master and commander of that vessel
>> with very broad authority.
>>
>> Note that refusing to obey the commands of the pilot in
>> command would be mutiny. So if the PIC tells a passenger to
>> give up the controls and the latter refuses to do so, it's a
>> felony.
>
>
> Oh, my. A private aircraft flight, not involving terrorism? A
> federal criminal statute may exist, so if so, please cite it for us, to
> prove you know how to research and understand the law. Cite two numbers
> with "USC" in the middle. Forget state law; a generic statute should
> fit, but it has nothing specifically to do with pilots, airplanes, or
> maritime law.

You might find this interesting...

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01406.htm

The above scenario would seem to fit the
description of "interfering with a flight
crew" and reading the narrative, I would
tend to think it would apply to GA as well
as commercial flights. The act of refusing
to relinquish the flight controls does not
seem to meet the definition of mutiny,

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01407.htm

though it might easily escalate to it...

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:12:40 -0500, TxSrv > wrote:

>Oh, my. A private aircraft flight, not involving terrorism? A
>federal criminal statute may exist, so if so, please cite it for
>us, to prove you know how to research and understand the law.
>Cite two numbers with "USC" in the middle. Forget state law; a
>generic statute should fit, but it has nothing specifically to do
>with pilots, airplanes, or maritime law.

Just to ask, is 49 USC 46504 restricted to commercial ops?

[Jim Stewart]

Peter Clark wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:12:40 -0500, TxSrv > wrote:
>
>
>>Oh, my. A private aircraft flight, not involving terrorism? A
>>federal criminal statute may exist, so if so, please cite it for
>>us, to prove you know how to research and understand the law.
>>Cite two numbers with "USC" in the middle. Forget state law; a
>>generic statute should fit, but it has nothing specifically to do
>>with pilots, airplanes, or maritime law.
>
>
> Just to ask, is 49 USC 46504 restricted to commercial ops?

It would appear to apply to "any civil aircraft"

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01405.htm

[TxSrv]

Peter Clark wrote:
>
> Just to ask, is 49 USC 46504 restricted to commercial ops?

No, and apparently that one's a winner, as long as the
"interference" can be proven. However, a prosecution guideline
document on DOJ's web site is worded such that airline or at
least charter aircraft are the target of this statute. If indeed
Congressional intent is airlines, an indictment might be tossed
by the Court. It's further not a federal crime if DOJ won't
prosecute. If only the pilot and offending pax are on board,
prosecution will be difficult w/o witnesses. If witnesses and
the pilot regains control and lands like a C-172 safely, federal
prosecution doesn't seem called for nor is jail sentence assured.
State law can likely prosecute also, preferably if an assault on
the pilot, or a crash, or dangerous buzzing flight occurred.

F--

[LWG]

Me too. I used to have a sailplane, and you get used to constant turning,
often at high angles of bank. It never caused me any trouble. Until one day
when a friend offered me a ride in his Blanik two-place sailplane. After a
few minutes I thought I was gonna die, until I asked for the controls for a
minute. That allowed me to last long enough to get on the ground. I often
let newbies follow along or fly on straight and level flight. Just holding
the controls and making or following the small movements to stay straight
and level can help.

> Here it is some 30 years later and the only time I've ever gotten
> nauseated in an airplane since was riding in the back of an Arrow while
> somebody else flew it. But I've never puked. There's a few times I
> almost **** my pants but that's a different story.

> Now, with newbies, I give my best airline ride. I figure any fool can
> jerk an airplane around but it takes talent to be smooth. But I don't
> explain everything in advance... I just do what needs to be done and
> answer questions as they come up. I haven't lost a passenger yet or had
> anybody refuse to ride with me a second time.
>

[Mxsmanic]

TxSrv writes:

> Oh, my. A private aircraft flight, not involving terrorism?

A private aircraft is not special in this respect.

> A federal criminal statute may exist, so if so, please cite it for
> us, to prove you know how to research and understand the law.

49 USC 46504 defines interference with the flight crew of an aircraft
as a felony (maximum of 20 years, unless a weapon is involved, in
which case the maximum is life).

49 USC 46318 provides a civil penalty for similar actions.

49 USC 46502 defines exercising control of an aircraft by force as a
felony (air piracy), here again it's 20 years maximum, or
life/execution if a death occurs.

> Cite two numbers with "USC" in the middle.

Done.

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[Mxsmanic]

Peter Clark writes:

> Just to ask, is 49 USC 46504 restricted to commercial ops?

No.

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[Roger[_4_]]

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 02:11:49 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote
>
>> My first career was as a dive instructor and I've been out in 12 foot seas
>> myself, although in a bigger (35') boat.
>
>12 foot seas in deep water is a lot different than in 18' deep water. The
>steepness of the wave, because of how close the waves are to each other makes a
>huge difference.
>
>12 waves on the ocean is just starting to be good sailing. On Western Lake
>Erie, 12 foot makes for ...
>
12' on Lake Eirie,or Huron for that matter? The first trought would
stick you in the mud and the first wave would bury you in it.


>Not so good! <g>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:04:20 -0500, "LWG" >
wrote:

>Me too. I used to have a sailplane, and you get used to constant turning,
>often at high angles of bank. It never caused me any trouble. Until one day
>when a friend offered me a ride in his Blanik two-place sailplane. After a
>few minutes I thought I was gonna die, until I asked for the controls for a
>minute. That allowed me to last long enough to get on the ground. I often
>let newbies follow along or fly on straight and level flight. Just holding
>the controls and making or following the small movements to stay straight
>and level can help.

I can do aerobatics, but I do not ride well<:-)) Hanging onto the
controls does little to help. I have to be the one doing the maneuvers
for my sense of balance to be happy. Otherwise I can turn a beautiful
shade of green in a hurry.

>
>> Here it is some 30 years later and the only time I've ever gotten
>> nauseated in an airplane since was riding in the back of an Arrow while
>> somebody else flew it. But I've never puked. There's a few times I
>> almost **** my pants but that's a different story.
>
>> Now, with newbies, I give my best airline ride. I figure any fool can
>> jerk an airplane around but it takes talent to be smooth. But I don't
>> explain everything in advance... I just do what needs to be done and
>> answer questions as they come up. I haven't lost a passenger yet or had
>> anybody refuse to ride with me a second time.
>>
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Roger" > wrote

> 12' on Lake Eirie,or Huron for that matter? The first trought would
> stick you in the mud and the first wave would bury you in it.

With 18 foot depth, a 12 foot wave would leave 12 feet depth in the trough, and
the crest would have you with 24 ffet of water under you.

Our boat only drew about 6 feet, to the keel. Very possibe; I was there. It
was the roughest I have ever seen the lake, in 10 years of sailing on the lake.

I love sailing in waves of up to 6 feet. That just means there is enough wind
to really boogie! <g>

Over 60 knots of "breeze" is a bit too much, though.
--
Jim in NC

[LWG]

Sometimes, you just can't tell...

I have always prided myself on flying as gently and conservatively with all
my passengers, especially my kids. My older boy has always been a little
queasy while I was flying. I tried all the usual tricks- ginger, dramamine,
electronic wrist band, and nothing really took care of the problem. I let
him fly straight and level, and he was okay with that, but flying was too
uncomfortable for him to be fun.

So today I took him up. It was an unusual day in the East, no turbulence and
excellent visibility. He asked if we could do some "high G" stuff. I said
okay, let's try some steep turns. He had been following alone on the
controls all along, but I took over and cranked it into a 45 degree turn (I
was pleasantly surprised as the altimeter stayed pegged, since it's been
awhile) and then rolled into a similar turn in the other direction. He
loved it! I said, okay, see that long straight road, let's drop down a
little and we'll do some S turns. Then we climbed up and did some stalls,
and then some steep turns around a point.

So, we went through some basic but vigorous airwork, and he enjoyed every
minute, much more than when I was trying to act line an airline pilot. In
some rare cases, there is such a thing as being too gentle. I guess the
real trick is knowing when those are.

[Robert Chambers]

I have a similar thing with my two kids. My daughter can handle a steep
turn, anything positive G's but push over the top and get her light in
the seat and she doesn't like it. My son however is the opposite, he
loves doing negative G things including making a notepad float off his
lap. He tries to get me to do that with mom in the plane but I'm
smarter than that.

I guess it depends on what the person expects, and what they enjoy.

LWG wrote:
> Sometimes, you just can't tell...
>
> I have always prided myself on flying as gently and conservatively with all
> my passengers, especially my kids. My older boy has always been a little
> queasy while I was flying. I tried all the usual tricks- ginger, dramamine,
> electronic wrist band, and nothing really took care of the problem. I let
> him fly straight and level, and he was okay with that, but flying was too
> uncomfortable for him to be fun.
>
> So today I took him up. It was an unusual day in the East, no turbulence and
> excellent visibility. He asked if we could do some "high G" stuff. I said
> okay, let's try some steep turns. He had been following alone on the
> controls all along, but I took over and cranked it into a 45 degree turn (I
> was pleasantly surprised as the altimeter stayed pegged, since it's been
> awhile) and then rolled into a similar turn in the other direction. He
> loved it! I said, okay, see that long straight road, let's drop down a
> little and we'll do some S turns. Then we climbed up and did some stalls,
> and then some steep turns around a point.
>
> So, we went through some basic but vigorous airwork, and he enjoyed every
> minute, much more than when I was trying to act line an airline pilot. In
> some rare cases, there is such a thing as being too gentle. I guess the
> real trick is knowing when those are.
>
>

[john smith]

I got used to negative G's in my five years of skydiving.
They were the final part of every climb to altitude, prior to jump run.

Robert Chambers wrote:

> I have a similar thing with my two kids. My daughter can handle a
> steep turn, anything positive G's but push over the top and get her
> light in the seat and she doesn't like it. My son however is the
> opposite, he loves doing negative G things including making a notepad
> float off his lap. He tries to get me to do that with mom in the
> plane but I'm smarter than that.
>
> I guess it depends on what the person expects, and what they enjoy.
>
> LWG wrote:
>
>> Sometimes, you just can't tell...
>>
>> I have always prided myself on flying as gently and conservatively
>> with all my passengers, especially my kids. My older boy has always
>> been a little queasy while I was flying. I tried all the usual
>> tricks- ginger, dramamine, electronic wrist band, and nothing really
>> took care of the problem. I let him fly straight and level, and he
>> was okay with that, but flying was too uncomfortable for him to be fun.
>>
>> So today I took him up. It was an unusual day in the East, no
>> turbulence and excellent visibility. He asked if we could do some
>> "high G" stuff. I said okay, let's try some steep turns. He had
>> been following alone on the controls all along, but I took over and
>> cranked it into a 45 degree turn (I was pleasantly surprised as the
>> altimeter stayed pegged, since it's been awhile) and then rolled into
>> a similar turn in the other direction. He loved it! I said, okay,
>> see that long straight road, let's drop down a little and we'll do
>> some S turns. Then we climbed up and did some stalls, and then some
>> steep turns around a point.
>>
>> So, we went through some basic but vigorous airwork, and he enjoyed
>> every minute, much more than when I was trying to act line an airline
>> pilot. In some rare cases, there is such a thing as being too
>> gentle. I guess the real trick is knowing when those are.
>>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

john smith wrote:
> I got used to negative G's in my five years of skydiving.
> They were the final part of every climb to altitude, prior to jump run.


Huh? I've only jumped once but I don't remember any negative G. Maybe zero G
for a second or two after you step off the step but no sense of falling. I
interpret that sick sense of in your stomach when I fall off a ladder as being
negative G... but there wasn't any of that with my jump.

Were you jumping from way on up there, where the aircraft was struggling to get
to your target altitude? Maybe that's the part I missed from my experience....
which was a static line jump with a T-10 from about 3500 feet.

Enquiring minds want to know...


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mxsmanic]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN writes:

> Huh? I've only jumped once but I don't remember any negative G. Maybe zero G
> for a second or two after you step off the step but no sense of falling. I
> interpret that sick sense of in your stomach when I fall off a ladder as being
> negative G... but there wasn't any of that with my jump.

Free falls are zero G, not negative G. Negative Gs are
physiologically hazardous, compared to positive Gs, so it's unusual to
see them deliberately imposed.

If you want a sample, though, you can ride on the Twilight Zone Tower
of Terror attraction at a number of Disney amusement parks. This
attraction is designed to accelerate riders downward at greater than 1
G, so they actually experience negative Gs on the way down (although
not enough to be hazardous).

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[john smith]

Oops! That's right... zero G's! (Technically, isn't zero-G a -1G
maneuver considering "normal" gravity to be +1G?)

Negative G's are what you do while flying aerobatic outside maneuvers.
They can make your eyes all red.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

>john smith wrote:
>
>
>>I got used to negative G's in my five years of skydiving.
>>They were the final part of every climb to altitude, prior to jump run.
>>
>>
>
>
>Huh? I've only jumped once but I don't remember any negative G. Maybe zero G
>for a second or two after you step off the step but no sense of falling. I
>interpret that sick sense of in your stomach when I fall off a ladder as being
>negative G... but there wasn't any of that with my jump.
>
>Were you jumping from way on up there, where the aircraft was struggling to get
>to your target altitude? Maybe that's the part I missed from my experience....
>which was a static line jump with a T-10 from about 3500 feet.
>
>Enquiring minds want to know...
>
>
>
>

[Mxsmanic]

john smith writes:

> Negative G's are what you do while flying aerobatic outside maneuvers.
> They can make your eyes all red.

They can also cause retinal damage and hemorrhagic CVAs. Quite a risk
to take for a brief thrill. It's much safer to pass out briefly with
positive Gs, which typically has no sequelae. (Of course, if you're
flying, you'll want to avoid this, too.)

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[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

john smith wrote:
> Oops! That's right... zero G's! (Technically, isn't zero-G a -1G
> maneuver considering "normal" gravity to be +1G?)


Positive G is what you get when you pull on the yoke in normal flight. Zero G
is what you get when you push on the yoke in normal flight. Negative G is what
you get when you push really hard in no longer normal flight. <G>

Seriously, 1 positive G is what you're feeling right now sitting in your chair.
Zero G allows you to float. Negative G tries to fling you out of your chair.

Others can probably word this better than I did.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Robert Chambers]

No Mort I think you covered it pretty well.

Positive G - your butt is pressing in the seat
Zero G - your butt and your lap belt are not really doing any pressing
Negative G - your lap belt is holding you down - anything not held down
is now floating around - a good way to find lost screws, pens, rivets,
mints, and what your pax had for lunch :)

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> john smith wrote:
>
>>Oops! That's right... zero G's! (Technically, isn't zero-G a -1G
>>maneuver considering "normal" gravity to be +1G?)
>
>
>
> Positive G is what you get when you pull on the yoke in normal flight. Zero G
> is what you get when you push on the yoke in normal flight. Negative G is what
> you get when you push really hard in no longer normal flight. <G>
>
> Seriously, 1 positive G is what you're feeling right now sitting in your chair.
> Zero G allows you to float. Negative G tries to fling you out of your chair.
>
> Others can probably word this better than I did.
>
>
>

[Roger[_4_]]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 02:42:37 GMT, Robert Chambers
> wrote:

>No Mort I think you covered it pretty well.
>
>Positive G - your butt is pressing in the seat
>Zero G - your butt and your lap belt are not really doing any pressing
>Negative G - your lap belt is holding you down - anything not held down
>is now floating around - a good way to find lost screws, pens, rivets,
>mints, and what your pax had for lunch :)

Ahhh...Negative G is when all that stuff you lost on the floor is now
stuck to the ceiling. (Including the dirt) And your sinuses plug up

Zero is when every thing floats around (including the dirt) And your
sinuses plug up. If it last very long you have to push to keep your
feet on the rudder pedals. The natural rest position for our arms and
legs in zero G is not the same as when sitting in a chair.



Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[GeorgeC]

You forgot dirt in the eyes.

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 02:42:37 GMT, Robert Chambers >
wrote:


>Negative G - your lap belt is holding you down - anything not held down
>is now floating around - a good way to find lost screws, pens, rivets,
>mints, and what your pax had for lunch :)

GeorgeC