Girls and flying -- an interesting experience with the Kiwi

[Jay Honeck]

We witnessed an interesting thing last night, and it gives me hope for
the future of GA.

Becca, our middle-school-aged daughter, threw a little Christmas party
for friends, and held it in our hotel meeting room/theater, with the
idea that they'd all watch a movie after listening to music and eating
snacks. Since it was to be just 8 girls, and 2 boys, a movie seemed
like a good way to break the ice and keep the conversation rolling --
always an awkward thing at that age.

The Kiwi -- our full-sized flight simulator -- (see it here:
http://alexisparkinn.com/the_kiwi_is_born.htm ) is in the theater, too,
and I thought we'd have to remove it to make room for tables, etc.
Instead, my daughter asked me to have it on and available, just to
provide one more thing for the kids to do.

So, I created a couple of simple-but-cool flight scenarios (over the
Grand Canyon, for example) where the plane was already airborne
(eliminating the boring and difficult departure phase), and watched as
the party started cooking, and the girls started taking turns flying.

I figured that -- girls being girls -- they would be indifferent at
best to what amounts to a giant-scale video game, and would soon be
talking girl talk. After all, game marketers have spent billions of
dollars trying to design video games to attract a female audience, to
no avail -- girls simply don't like to play 'em as much as guys -- so
what chance did I have?

Well, to my utter amazement, the girls were absolutely dazzled by the
Kiwi. At one point they were fighting over flight time, and I was kept
busy explaining the flight controls and techniques. One girl in
particular (Becca's best friend, whom we have taken flying in the past)
was completely immersed in the experience, and was actually able to
depart from Chicago's (defunct) Meigs Field, fly the pattern out over
the lake -- and land successfully, on the runway! This without EVER
having piloted a plane (or a simulator) before, which I found to be
completely remarkable.

(She was as proud as a peacock, and spent the rest of the evening
asking Mary and me about flight lessons, costs, etc. She's a natural
pilot, and, boy, are her parents every gonna hate US... :-)

Mary eventually had to threaten to eliminate the movie from the
evening's festivities to get the girls to shut it down -- but as soon
as the movie ended, they were clamoring for more flight time! I've
never, ever seen anything like this with girls (Becca can fly the Kiwi,
but is far from enamored with it), and it gives me great hope for the
future of GA.

We, as GA supporters, clearly need to see more Kiwis installed, and --
as the prototype for what we want to install at the Iowa Children's
Museum -- I believe our Kiwi Version 2.0 has proven that the concept
works. This thing clearly "hooks" young people on flying, and that's
what we need if we want to see GA survive and prosper.

Mary and I spent some time pondering some of the reasons why this
transpired. One guess was that the Kiwi is just *so* realistic that it
really doesn't seem like a game? Another possibility was that there is
no real "game" aspect to flying the Kiwi -- no points are scored, no
kills recorded -- and perhaps this appeals more to girls?

I dunno. But it was fantastic to watch them fly, and great fun, too!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Mary and I spent some time pondering some of the reasons why this
> transpired. One guess was that the Kiwi is just *so* realistic that it
> really doesn't seem like a game?

That's certainly part of it. Everyone (irrespective of sex) enjoys a
realistic simulation.

> Another possibility was that there is no real "game" aspect to flying
> the Kiwi -- no points are scored, no kills recorded -- and perhaps
> this appeals more to girls?

It's not playing games that puts girls off ... it's the type of game.
Girls as a group don't like violent games, first-person shooters, and
games with all sorts of high-speed movement. They are just as
intrigued as anyone by intellectual games, games that involve people,
and so on. Most video games are very highly optimized to appeal to
boys, and thus often do not appeal to girls. But girls like games
that are optimized for them, and games that are intended for everyone.

A simulator really isn't a game, though, and so the rules for games
don't apply to begin with. Everyone likes simulators, as it allows
them to try things they wouldn't otherwise be able to try--and safely.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jim Macklin]

Needs arm rests and a headrest. Mock-up some doors, too!

I think that women got turned off by aviation because of the
connection to war, many women and girls see the flight sim
games as just war. They never get past that image. But you
have made a simulator that looks like the one they used in
school for driver's ed class.


--
Merry Christmas
Have a Safe and Happy New Year
Live Long and Prosper
Jim Macklin


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| We witnessed an interesting thing last night, and it gives
me hope for
| the future of GA.
|
| Becca, our middle-school-aged daughter, threw a little
Christmas party
| for friends, and held it in our hotel meeting
room/theater, with the
| idea that they'd all watch a movie after listening to
music and eating
| snacks. Since it was to be just 8 girls, and 2 boys, a
movie seemed
| like a good way to break the ice and keep the conversation
rolling --
| always an awkward thing at that age.
|
| The Kiwi -- our full-sized flight simulator -- (see it
here:
| http://alexisparkinn.com/the_kiwi_is_born.htm ) is in the
theater, too,
| and I thought we'd have to remove it to make room for
tables, etc.
| Instead, my daughter asked me to have it on and available,
just to
| provide one more thing for the kids to do.
|
| So, I created a couple of simple-but-cool flight scenarios
(over the
| Grand Canyon, for example) where the plane was already
airborne
| (eliminating the boring and difficult departure phase),
and watched as
| the party started cooking, and the girls started taking
turns flying.
|
| I figured that -- girls being girls -- they would be
indifferent at
| best to what amounts to a giant-scale video game, and
would soon be
| talking girl talk. After all, game marketers have spent
billions of
| dollars trying to design video games to attract a female
audience, to
| no avail -- girls simply don't like to play 'em as much as
guys -- so
| what chance did I have?
|
| Well, to my utter amazement, the girls were absolutely
dazzled by the
| Kiwi. At one point they were fighting over flight time,
and I was kept
| busy explaining the flight controls and techniques. One
girl in
| particular (Becca's best friend, whom we have taken flying
in the past)
| was completely immersed in the experience, and was
actually able to
| depart from Chicago's (defunct) Meigs Field, fly the
pattern out over
| the lake -- and land successfully, on the runway! This
without EVER
| having piloted a plane (or a simulator) before, which I
found to be
| completely remarkable.
|
| (She was as proud as a peacock, and spent the rest of the
evening
| asking Mary and me about flight lessons, costs, etc.
She's a natural
| pilot, and, boy, are her parents every gonna hate US...
:-)
|
| Mary eventually had to threaten to eliminate the movie
from the
| evening's festivities to get the girls to shut it down --
but as soon
| as the movie ended, they were clamoring for more flight
time! I've
| never, ever seen anything like this with girls (Becca can
fly the Kiwi,
| but is far from enamored with it), and it gives me great
hope for the
| future of GA.
|
| We, as GA supporters, clearly need to see more Kiwis
installed, and --
| as the prototype for what we want to install at the Iowa
Children's
| Museum -- I believe our Kiwi Version 2.0 has proven that
the concept
| works. This thing clearly "hooks" young people on flying,
and that's
| what we need if we want to see GA survive and prosper.
|
| Mary and I spent some time pondering some of the reasons
why this
| transpired. One guess was that the Kiwi is just *so*
realistic that it
| really doesn't seem like a game? Another possibility was
that there is
| no real "game" aspect to flying the Kiwi -- no points are
scored, no
| kills recorded -- and perhaps this appeals more to girls?
|
| I dunno. But it was fantastic to watch them fly, and
great fun, too!
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

[Jay Honeck]

> It's not playing games that puts girls off ... it's the type of game.
> Girls as a group don't like violent games, first-person shooters, and
> games with all sorts of high-speed movement. They are just as
> intrigued as anyone by intellectual games, games that involve people,
> and so on.

While I believe this is true, video game makers have spent years and
billions trying to figure out why girls make up something less than 10%
of the total video game market. Interestingly, this figure is pretty
close to the percentage of *real* pilots.

There's either a social stigma for girls, or they are just wired
differently -- but I'm glad the Kiwi seems to have crossed that line,
at least with early teenaged girls.

It would be interesting to gather this same group of girls in five
years, just to watch the dynamics as they fly the Kiwi Version 5.0, and
see if their enthusiasm have changed with age.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> I dunno. But it was fantastic to watch them fly, and great fun, too!
>
Well, Jay. There's just one answer. Go get your instrument rating,
commercial and then your CFI!

[Jose[_1_]]

> There's either a social stigma for girls, or they are just wired
> differently -- but I'm glad the Kiwi seems to have crossed that line,
> at least with early teenaged girls.

I wonder if they would have been as interested had it been a mixed sex
party.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[The Old Bloke]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> It's not playing games that puts girls off ... it's the type of game.
>> Girls as a group don't like violent games, first-person shooters, and
>> games with all sorts of high-speed movement. They are just as
>> intrigued as anyone by intellectual games, games that involve people,
>> and so on.
>
> While I believe this is true, video game makers have spent years and
> billions trying to figure out why girls make up something less than 10%
> of the total video game market. Interestingly, this figure is pretty
> close to the percentage of *real* pilots.
>
> There's either a social stigma for girls, or they are just wired
> differently -- but I'm glad the Kiwi seems to have crossed that line,
> at least with early teenaged girls.
>
> It would be interesting to gather this same group of girls in five
> years, just to watch the dynamics as they fly the Kiwi Version 5.0, and
> see if their enthusiasm have changed with age.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
..................

Well many of my male friends like to have a go at FS, but I'm yet to find
any female friend that is interested in FS. Most tell me it is "too
boring". But most of these females will always have a go a car racing! And
love crashing!

[Peter Dohm]

"The Old Bloke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >> It's not playing games that puts girls off ... it's the type of game.
> >> Girls as a group don't like violent games, first-person shooters, and
> >> games with all sorts of high-speed movement. They are just as
> >> intrigued as anyone by intellectual games, games that involve people,
> >> and so on.
> >
> > While I believe this is true, video game makers have spent years and
> > billions trying to figure out why girls make up something less than 10%
> > of the total video game market. Interestingly, this figure is pretty
> > close to the percentage of *real* pilots.
> >
> > There's either a social stigma for girls, or they are just wired
> > differently -- but I'm glad the Kiwi seems to have crossed that line,
> > at least with early teenaged girls.
> >
> > It would be interesting to gather this same group of girls in five
> > years, just to watch the dynamics as they fly the Kiwi Version 5.0, and
> > see if their enthusiasm have changed with age.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> .................
>
> Well many of my male friends like to have a go at FS, but I'm yet to find
> any female friend that is interested in FS. Most tell me it is "too
> boring". But most of these females will always have a go a car racing!
And
> love crashing!
>
>
They sound like an entertaining group. But there's no way I'd with them!

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
news:Tayhh.279$_X.206@bigfe9...
>
> "The Old Bloke" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >> It's not playing games that puts girls off ... it's the type of game.
> > >> Girls as a group don't like violent games, first-person shooters, and
> > >> games with all sorts of high-speed movement. They are just as
> > >> intrigued as anyone by intellectual games, games that involve people,
> > >> and so on.
> > >
> > > While I believe this is true, video game makers have spent years and
> > > billions trying to figure out why girls make up something less than
10%
> > > of the total video game market. Interestingly, this figure is pretty
> > > close to the percentage of *real* pilots.
> > >
> > > There's either a social stigma for girls, or they are just wired
> > > differently -- but I'm glad the Kiwi seems to have crossed that line,
> > > at least with early teenaged girls.
> > >
> > > It would be interesting to gather this same group of girls in five
> > > years, just to watch the dynamics as they fly the Kiwi Version 5.0,
and
> > > see if their enthusiasm have changed with age.
> > > --
> > > Jay Honeck
> > > Iowa City, IA
> > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > >
> > .................
> >
> > Well many of my male friends like to have a go at FS, but I'm yet to
find
> > any female friend that is interested in FS. Most tell me it is "too
> > boring". But most of these females will always have a go a car racing!
> And
> > love crashing!
> >
> >
> They sound like an entertaining group. But there's no way I'd with them!
>
> Peter
>
>
There's nothing quite like ruining a quick remark....

That was supposed to read: "There's no way I'd ride with them!"

Peter
>

[rod]

" Since it was to be just 8 girls, and 2 boys, a movie seemed
> like a good way to break the ice and keep the conversation rolling --
> always an awkward thing at that age.



Did either of the two boys try it? Or were they afraid of being shown up by
the girl super-pilot.

Rod

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> While I believe this is true, video game makers have spent years and
> billions trying to figure out why girls make up something less than 10%
> of the total video game market.

They are probably 10% of the market because they are less than 10% of
the game designers and developers. Boys write games that are
interesting to boys.

There are spectacular exceptions, such as The Sims (which is also
among the best-selling video games overall, even though it's still
only a tiny fraction of the market).

> Interestingly, this figure is pretty close to the percentage
> of *real* pilots.

Piloting also seems to be something that appeals to mainly boys.
Operating machines and vehicles always seems to appeal to boys more
than girls.

> There's either a social stigma for girls, or they are just wired
> differently -- but I'm glad the Kiwi seems to have crossed that line,
> at least with early teenaged girls.

They are wired differently, as a group. However, individual
variations in personality are much larger than the wired-in
differences between the sexes, which means that, while it's always
true that large groups of girls and boys will show the same
preferences, you cannot depend on this to predict the preferences of
an individual boy or girl. Thus, there are always a few girls who are
just as enthusiastic about flight as any boy--but they always
represent a minority of girls overall.

Early teenaged girls are awash in testosterone, which can slightly
alter their behavior. Girls younger than puberty are not yet worried
about finding partners, which can also alter their preferences.
However, this is just speculation. I don't know why early teenaged
girls would enjoy simulation, but as long as it's true, perhaps it's
best not to ask any questions.

One does wonder how many of them might feel inspired to actually
pursue flight in real aircraft, though.

> It would be interesting to gather this same group of girls in five
> years, just to watch the dynamics as they fly the Kiwi Version 5.0, and
> see if their enthusiasm have changed with age.

It probably will have changed. My guess is that they will be less
interested, but time will tell.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jose writes:

> I wonder if they would have been as interested had it been a mixed sex
> party.

If they are younger than puberty, I'd say yes, although they might
have been much less likely to admit it. If they are past puberty,
they definitely would have been less interested, as the mating
instinct (in both sexes present) would tend to override many other
considerations.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

The Old Bloke writes:

> Well many of my male friends like to have a go at FS, but I'm yet to find
> any female friend that is interested in FS. Most tell me it is "too
> boring". But most of these females will always have a go a car racing! And
> love crashing!

Maybe they like car racing because they've actually driven a car,
whereas they don't like flying because they have no familiarity with
piloting. To some extent you have to be able to relate to an activity
before you can enjoy it in simulation. The more accurate the
simulation, the more true I think this becomes.

I know a couple of women who really enjoy car racing games. I met one
who enjoyed Tomb Raider not long ago, which surprised me a bit more.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Honeck]

> I wonder if they would have been as interested had it been a mixed sex
> party.

There were two boys in the group.

They were into it, too -- but that's not surprising.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Clear]

In article <hQyhh.290$_X.130@bigfe9>, rod > wrote:
>
>Did either of the two boys try it? Or were they afraid of being shown up by
>the girl super-pilot.

What has been the group's experience with letting non-pilot passengers
fly? In my experience, the women are much better then the guys.

The guys tend to over control trying to keep it straight and level,
and fail miserably. The women tend to use more finesse, and do a
good job of keeping it straight and level, and can usually manage
turns with just some verbal coaching.

I took three friends up recently, a couple and another male friend
who is a frequent passenger of mine, but isn't a comfortable flyer.
When the boyfriend was flying, the guy in back asked me to take
over after about two minutes due to the overcontrolling/etc. On
the way back from lunch, the girlfriend flew for fifteen minutes
with no problem and no complaints from the uncomfortable flyer.

On another flight, a vegetarian female friend of mine flew about
half the trip down to Harris Ranch. She was so smooth on the
controls, she made me look bad. :/

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"John Clear" > wrote in message
...
> In article <hQyhh.290$_X.130@bigfe9>, rod > wrote:
>>
>>Did either of the two boys try it? Or were they afraid of being shown up
>>by
>>the girl super-pilot.
>
> What has been the group's experience with letting non-pilot passengers
> fly? In my experience, the women are much better then the guys.
>

Females are generally better than males the first time at most things that
both have seen done in movies. I used to be the senior range master at a
shooting club and would work with new people wanting to shoot competition
pistol. 9 out of 10 men had to unlearn things that women didn't. The only
problem with women was getting them over that first shot.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> We witnessed an interesting thing last night, and it gives me hope for
> the future of GA.


"There comes a moment in time when everybody eventually learns the real
meaning of things.
To a fighter pilot that moment arrives when the plane on your six has the
range, the closure rate, the angle off, and a Ps advantage. Add to this that
the pilot flying that plane has PMS and your life ain't worth a ****!"

From Dudley's private collection of witty ditties :-)))

Dudley Henriques

[Mxsmanic]

John Clear writes:

> What has been the group's experience with letting non-pilot passengers
> fly? In my experience, the women are much better then the guys.
>
> The guys tend to over control trying to keep it straight and level,
> and fail miserably. The women tend to use more finesse, and do a
> good job of keeping it straight and level, and can usually manage
> turns with just some verbal coaching.

My guess is that men tend to favor action, even overreaction, whereas
women tend to favor caution. Since aircraft controls are presumably
quite responsive from the viewpoint of a non-pilot, women would
logically tend to fly better, as they'd be more cautious about moving
the controls and more likely to see what they do before making any
rash movements.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Beckman]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> We witnessed an interesting thing last night, and it gives me hope for
>> the future of GA.
>
>
> "There comes a moment in time when everybody eventually learns the real
> meaning of things.
> To a fighter pilot that moment arrives when the plane on your six has the
> range, the closure rate, the angle off, and a Ps advantage. Add to this
> that the pilot flying that plane has PMS and your life ain't worth a
> ****!"
>
> From Dudley's private collection of witty ditties :-)))
>
> Dudley Henriques

An easily defensible situation:

- Break hard left or right
- Select Zone V AB
- Hit the CF* dispenser

(*CF in this case does not mean Chaff/Flares - It means Comfort Food...)

<g d r>

Jay B

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>> We witnessed an interesting thing last night, and it gives me hope for
>>> the future of GA.
>>
>>
>> "There comes a moment in time when everybody eventually learns the real
>> meaning of things.
>> To a fighter pilot that moment arrives when the plane on your six has the
>> range, the closure rate, the angle off, and a Ps advantage. Add to this
>> that the pilot flying that plane has PMS and your life ain't worth a
>> ****!"
>>
>> From Dudley's private collection of witty ditties :-)))
>>
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> An easily defensible situation:
>
> - Break hard left or right
> - Select Zone V AB
> - Hit the CF* dispenser
>
> (*CF in this case does not mean Chaff/Flares - It means Comfort Food...)
>
> <g d r>
>
> Jay B

The only problem with this is that the "average" fighter pilot would have
already eaten the comfort food :-)
D

[Ross]

John Clear wrote:
> In article <hQyhh.290$_X.130@bigfe9>, rod > wrote:
>
>>Did either of the two boys try it? Or were they afraid of being shown up by
>>the girl super-pilot.
>
>
> What has been the group's experience with letting non-pilot passengers
> fly? In my experience, the women are much better then the guys.
>
> The guys tend to over control trying to keep it straight and level,
> and fail miserably. The women tend to use more finesse, and do a
> good job of keeping it straight and level, and can usually manage
> turns with just some verbal coaching.
>
> I took three friends up recently, a couple and another male friend
> who is a frequent passenger of mine, but isn't a comfortable flyer.
> When the boyfriend was flying, the guy in back asked me to take
> over after about two minutes due to the overcontrolling/etc. On
> the way back from lunch, the girlfriend flew for fifteen minutes
> with no problem and no complaints from the uncomfortable flyer.
>
> On another flight, a vegetarian female friend of mine flew about
> half the trip down to Harris Ranch. She was so smooth on the
> controls, she made me look bad. :/
>
> John

Several years ago I gave my wife for a present NSCAR driving lessons at
Texas Motor Speedway. She drove the track for 8 laps nearing 150mph.
(Said she didn't blink the entire time). The instructor said the women
were better drivers as they didn't have anything to 'prove' on the track.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Jim Logajan]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> While I believe this is true, video game makers have spent years and
> billions trying to figure out why girls make up something less than 10%
> of the total video game market.

Um, according to the Entertainment Software Association, your 10% number is
way off:

"Thirty-eight percent of all game players are women."

From: http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php

[Walt]

John Clear wrote:

> The guys tend to over control trying to keep it straight and level,
> and fail miserably. The women tend to use more finesse, and do a
> good job of keeping it straight and level, and can usually manage
> turns with just some verbal coaching.
>
> John
> --
> John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

Back in my rock climbing days the same was true. I helped as an
assistant instructor with the Colorado Mountain Club. Guys tended to
try and muscle up the rock, while the gals used footwork and, like you
say, finesse. They learned much more quickly, since footwork and
balance mean a lot more than Rambo-style muscling in rock climbing.

I'm not sure if that's true of young kids though, since both sexes are
still relatively equal in muscle strength. When I've taken younger kids
flying both boys and girls did a good job.

Interesting story: a lady here runs a local flight school. Recently one
of her students was a tackle on one of the local high school teams.
6'5", 310 lbs. Didn't fit in one of her Tomahawks so he learned in an
Archer. She said he was clumsy as hell during preflight and once
accidentally ripped off the pitot tube with his head (not an easy thing
to do on an Archer) trying to get under the wing to sump the wing tank.


But, once he was settled in the cockpit he was a baby on the controls.
Did a good job.

So, there are exceptions to every rule. :>)

--Walt

[Mxsmanic]

Jim Logajan writes:

> "Thirty-eight percent of all game players are women."

Where are they all hiding?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Honeck]

> Um, according to the Entertainment Software Association, your 10% number is
> way off:
>
> "Thirty-eight percent of all game players are women."
>
> From: http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php

I find that figure to be absolutely remarkable.

I've been buying video games for over 20 years now, and my son owns
both Playstation 2 and XBox game consoles. Between us, I think it's
safe to say we're video game veterans, if not experts -- and both of us
have noticed that almost no games are aimed at girls.

Disney has a line of games (all pink, of course) out now, all aimed at
girls, but they take up one tiny kiosk in stores chock-full of "guys
games". My daughter plays the PS2 very occasionally (she has a "chick
game" called "Spryo", about a pink horse...), but I have NEVER seen or
heard of any of her girl friends playing video games.

38%? That's...incredible.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose[_1_]]

> and both of us
> have noticed that almost no games are aimed at girls.
> 38%? That's...incredible.

Maybe girls like the same things boys do. "Aiming things at girls" may
be attempting to create and perpetuate an artificial stereotype.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Disney has a line of games (all pink, of course) out now, all aimed at
> girls, but they take up one tiny kiosk in stores chock-full of "guys
> games". My daughter plays the PS2 very occasionally (she has a "chick
> game" called "Spryo", about a pink horse...), but I have NEVER seen or
> heard of any of her girl friends playing video games.

Buy them The Sims. They'd probably like that.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jose writes:

> Maybe girls like the same things boys do.

No, they do not.

> "Aiming things at girls" may be attempting to create and perpetuate
> an artificial stereotype.

The stereotype is not artificial. It is consistent in large
populations. Video games are popular with boys because they are
designed by boys. Also, girls have a slight preference for real-world
interaction in general, although I don't think it's enough to be a
factor for video games.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jim Logajan]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>> Um, according to the Entertainment Software Association, your 10%
>> number is way off:
>>
>> "Thirty-eight percent of all game players are women."
>>
>> From: http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php
>
> I find that figure to be absolutely remarkable.

Here are some figures from another source (circa 2000):

http://www.cybersurvey.com/reports/overall/overall_files/frame.htm

Overall Gaming Market Player Demographics (All Gamers 178.3 Million):
56% male
44% female

PC Gamers Demographic Profile (90.6 Million):
50% male
50% female

Video Game Console Gamers Demographic Profile (137.7 Million):
61% male
39% female

Online Gamers Demographic Profile (41.4 Million):
51% male
49% female

More details on the above web site, with age breakdowns.

[Jay Honeck]

> Video Game Console Gamers Demographic Profile (137.7 Million):
> 61% male
> 39% female
>
> Online Gamers Demographic Profile (41.4 Million):
> 51% male
> 49% female

This last example is particularly interesting. I know my daughter
LOVES an on-line fantasy world game called "RuneScape" (spelling?).
We finally had to restrict her time on it, as it was getting too
addictive!

But I'm really, really surprised at the figures for game console video
games. If you walk through the video game part of Best Buy, there
simply aren't any girls there -- but you'll see dozens of boys playing
all types of games.

Girls must be stealthy video game shoppers...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> This last example is particularly interesting. I know my daughter
> LOVES an on-line fantasy world game called "RuneScape" (spelling?).
> We finally had to restrict her time on it, as it was getting too
> addictive!
>
Not surprising. Online gaming is more social.

[john smith]

You don't get out of the Inn much, do you? :-))
There is at least one website devoted to girl gamers and game developers.
I do not remember the URL, it got alot of publicity several years ago
when a reported discovered it.

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Um, according to the Entertainment Software Association, your 10% number is
>>way off:
>>
>>"Thirty-eight percent of all game players are women."
>>
>>From: http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php
>>
>>
>
>I find that figure to be absolutely remarkable.
>
>I've been buying video games for over 20 years now, and my son owns
>both Playstation 2 and XBox game consoles. Between us, I think it's
>safe to say we're video game veterans, if not experts -- and both of us
>have noticed that almost no games are aimed at girls.
>
>Disney has a line of games (all pink, of course) out now, all aimed at
>girls, but they take up one tiny kiosk in stores chock-full of "guys
>games". My daughter plays the PS2 very occasionally (she has a "chick
>game" called "Spryo", about a pink horse...), but I have NEVER seen or
>heard of any of her girl friends playing video games.
>
>38%? That's...incredible.
>
>

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> But I'm really, really surprised at the figures for game console video
> games. If you walk through the video game part of Best Buy, there
> simply aren't any girls there -- but you'll see dozens of boys playing
> all types of games.
>
> Girls must be stealthy video game shoppers...

Or someone is cooking the books.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

john smith writes:

> You don't get out of the Inn much, do you? :-))
> There is at least one website devoted to girl gamers and game developers.
> I do not remember the URL, it got alot of publicity several years ago
> when a reported discovered it.

One whole Web site, eh?

There was a company devoted to games for girls some years ago
(something-Moon as I recall), but it folded out of a lack of business.

I don't necessarily think that games should be written specifically
for either sex. However, the fact remains that almost all existing
game titles are written by boys for other boys, so naturally girls are
not that prominent in the market. And, as previously noted, girls are
more social, so games without social elements or online interaction or
something along those lines are less appealing to girls than to boys.
Boys tend to like things; girls tend to like people.

--
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[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> Well, to my utter amazement, the girls were absolutely dazzled by the
> Kiwi. At one point they were fighting over flight time, and I was kept
> busy explaining the flight controls and techniques. One girl in
> particular (Becca's best friend, whom we have taken flying in the past)
> was completely immersed in the experience, and was actually able to
> depart from Chicago's (defunct) Meigs Field, fly the pattern out over
> the lake -- and land successfully, on the runway! This without EVER
> having piloted a plane (or a simulator) before, which I found to be
> completely remarkable.

You 'may' have just ended Beca's aversion to an interest in flying. If she
thinks that her friends think flying is cool, then she may be much more
interested in staying a step ahead of them; to be cool in learning to fly,
herself. That is one way for her to be cooler than her friends.

Interesting; the turns and twists that life takes, isn't it? You make an
artificial airplane, only to succeed in making flying a real airplane an
interest for your non-interested daughter. I hope it plays out that way,
anyway.
--
Jim in NC

[Randy Aldous]

Jay Honeck wrote:

[snip]

.... My daughter plays the PS2 very occasionally (she has a "chick
game" called "Spryo", about a pink horse...), ...

[snip]

Jay,

"Spryo" is a dinosaur and I disagree its a "chick game" (maybe for
yonger kids of both genders, teen boys might be a bit outside their
target demographic) - a bit less "realistic" than "Halo" perhaps, but
my son has several of the "Spyro" games.


Merry Christmas everybody!

Randy

[Jay Honeck]

> "Spryo" is a dinosaur and I disagree its a "chick game" (maybe for
> yonger kids of both genders, teen boys might be a bit outside their
> target demographic) - a bit less "realistic" than "Halo" perhaps, but
> my son has several of the "Spyro" games.

Yeah, you're right. My 16-year-old son makes fun of it, but its really
not specifically aimed at girls. (I think he makes fun of 'bout
anything my daughter likes -- and vice versa...)

> Merry Christmas everybody!

Same to you and yours, Randy!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"