Plane plunges into sewage tank, disappears

[Don Tuite]

Appalling, but hard to ignore.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL

Don

[gpsman]

Don Tuite wrote:
> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL

Pretty hard to miss. Which portion of CA is not a sewage tank...?
-----

- gpsman

[Scott Post]

In article >,
Don Tuite > wrote:
>Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>
>http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>

****ty place to land.

--
Scott Post

[Ron Natalie]

Scott Post wrote:
> In article >,
> Don Tuite > wrote:
>> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>>
>> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>>
>
> ****ty place to land.
>
Ladies and Gentleman...in the unlikely event of a water landing...wait,
that's not water...

[James Robinson]

Don Tuite > wrote:

> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>

Possibly a CFI and two students in a twin, reported as overdue by Nice Air
in San Jose. They have a Travel Air and a Seneca:

http://masl.to/?G58D2456E

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, James Robinson > said:
>Don Tuite > wrote:
>
>> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>>
>> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>>
>
>Possibly a CFI and two students in a twin, reported as overdue by Nice Air
>in San Jose. They have a Travel Air and a Seneca:
>
>http://masl.to/?G58D2456E

Have they reported that they don't want the plane back?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
My brother went to Florida, and all he bought me was this stupid election.
- George W. Bush

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Scott Post wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Don Tuite > wrote:
>>> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>>>
>>> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>>>
>>
>> ****ty place to land.
>>
> Ladies and Gentleman...in the unlikely event of a water landing...wait,
> that's not water...

Where I got my PP, El Dorado Downtown F43 18 took you over nothing but pine
trees and a sewage pond. We worried about engine loss on takeoff.

Look at this Google Map

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&q=Eldorado+Downtown+airport&oe=UTF-8&t=k&om=1&z=15&ll=33.184219,-92.660236&spn=0.024028,0.039911&iwloc=D

[James Robinson]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>
> In a previous article, James Robinson > said:
>>
>> Don Tuite > wrote:
>>
>>> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>>
>> Possibly a CFI and two students in a twin, reported as overdue by Nice
>> Air in San Jose. They have a Travel Air and a Seneca:
>>
>> http://masl.to/?G58D2456E
>
> Have they reported that they don't want the plane back?

In another news article, it was reported that some documents were found as
the sewage tanks were being drained, possibly the flight log and a Japanese
passport. The documents were supposedly removed from a strainer, and were
covered in sewage sludge. Anyone care to page through the log once it has
been rinsed off?

[Darkwing]

"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>
> Don

There is so many jokes that could be made but that is one ****ed up deal. Of
all the places to crash...

---------------------------------------
DW

[Montblack]

("Darkwing" wrote)
> There is so many jokes that could be made but that is one #$%^&* up deal.
> Of all the places to crash...


This ranks up there with being hit by a meteor.

The meteor being #1....


Montblack

[mad8]

this would be probably the only scenario where i'd rather hit the
ground....


pilot's last thought was that he was in deep ****
<padum-ding>

Don Tuite wrote:
> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>
> Don

[Don Tuite]

Google Map

I reckon the settling pond is the square thing at

36 59 15.23 W
121 32 07.07 N

(There are smaller aeration ponds just south of it.)

Hollister (K3O7) is at:
36 53 28.08 N
121 24 29.24 W

The pond is about 5 miles from the departure end of Runway 31, just to
the left of the runway heading.

Don

[Hilton]

Guys, three people died out there today, let's show some sensitivity.

Hilton
P.S.: They were from the Flight School at which Cecil's teaches. No doubt
he knew at least the CFI.


"mad8" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> this would be probably the only scenario where i'd rather hit the
> ground....
>
>
> pilot's last thought was that he was in deep ****
> <padum-ding>
>
> Don Tuite wrote:
>> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>>
>> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>>
>> Don
>

[Greg Farris]

In article om>,
says...
>
>
>this would be probably the only scenario where i'd rather hit the
>ground....
>
>


Actually, in a small plane, you would -usually- rather hit the ground.
Water landings tend to be unhappy events in light aircraft, especially
fixed gear singles. Some are unhappier than others though - man!

[[email protected]]

It's a very unfortunate accident. Life can be very cruel and even
experienced pilots sometimes end up in situations out of their control.
My instructor and I rent airplanes from Nice Air and I have had many
opportunities to talk to the instructor involved in this accident. He
was a very competent pilot with very respectable amount of flight
hours. He was the nicest person and having witnessed him instruct and
talk about his career goals I know that he had a true passion for
aviation.

Artie

Don Tuite wrote:
> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>
> Don

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-12-20, Greg Farris > wrote:
> Actually, in a small plane, you would -usually- rather hit the ground.
> Water landings tend to be unhappy events in light aircraft, especially
> fixed gear singles. Some are unhappier than others though - man!

They are unhappy events as in you don't get to use the plane afterwards
- but water landings are surprisingly survivable. Fixed gear or
retractible gear doesn't seem to make a lot of difference in ditchings.

http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[John T]

Don Tuite wrote:
> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL

Must...resist...dark humor...

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

[Peter Dohm]

> > Actually, in a small plane, you would -usually- rather hit the ground.
> > Water landings tend to be unhappy events in light aircraft, especially
> > fixed gear singles. Some are unhappier than others though - man!
>
> They are unhappy events as in you don't get to use the plane afterwards
> - but water landings are surprisingly survivable. Fixed gear or
> retractible gear doesn't seem to make a lot of difference in ditchings.
>
> http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm
>
Very good info. I now see that much less water is needed before you should
carry floatation equepment--expecially since that can may the water a far
better emergency landing choice in a lot of situations.

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

"John T" > wrote in message
...
> Don Tuite wrote:
> > Appalling, but hard to ignore.
> >
> > http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>
> Must...resist...dark humor...
>
> --
> John T
> http://sage1solutions.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
> ____________________
>
>
Very difficult. Perhaps impossible. The situation really stinks!

Peter

[Roger[_4_]]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:45:47 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:

>On 2006-12-20, Greg Farris > wrote:
>> Actually, in a small plane, you would -usually- rather hit the ground.
>> Water landings tend to be unhappy events in light aircraft, especially
>> fixed gear singles. Some are unhappier than others though - man!
>
>They are unhappy events as in you don't get to use the plane afterwards
>- but water landings are surprisingly survivable. Fixed gear or
>retractible gear doesn't seem to make a lot of difference in ditchings.
>
>http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm

Maybe so and maybe not. You are playing the odds. I lost a good
friend just a couple weeks ago when he apparently dug a float in while
landing.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Greg Farris]

In article >,
says...

>
>They are unhappy events as in you don't get to use the plane afterwards
>- but water landings are surprisingly survivable. Fixed gear or
>retractible gear doesn't seem to make a lot of difference in ditchings.
>
>http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm


Good link - good response.
I am one of those who has read articles on the subject, over many years,
and formed what appears to be an uninformed opinion. The case here is well
enough presented to merit a review of some of those widely-circulated
ideas.

GF

[John T]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message

>
> Very difficult. Perhaps impossible. The situation really stinks!

No matter how you cut it, it's a crappy way to go.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-12-20, Roger > wrote:
> Maybe so and maybe not. You are playing the odds. I lost a good
> friend just a couple weeks ago when he apparently dug a float in while
> landing.

People have been lost when they've botched landings on dry land too. Are
we "playing the odds" when landing on dry land? Well, some people would
say so about any flying!

The point is (and made by this article) - ditching isn't nearly the
"certain death" that it's painted to be, and indeed in most cases it's
survivable with little enough injury that egress is possible (around 90%
of inshore water ditchings). One person dying when botching a water
landing does not change this.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Cecil Chapman]

Shoki, one of the three that were killed was one of my fellow CFI's at my
FBO. While I only knew him in the day-to-day operations at our FBO, he was
always one of the warmest and friendliest person you could hope to meet.
The day he and his students died in that incredulously tragic crash I found
myself trying to reconcile that I had just seen him earlier that day,
walking by my desk in the CFI office area, smiling and waving as he always
would as he went off to his flight instruction duties.

The day after the accident all the CFI's met at the FBO, although none of us
had any desire to fly; both out of respect for our fallen friend and because
we were distracted by the loss of three of our own and were just not fit to
fly.

We hung around at the FBO for many hours (after an early morning meeting
where the announcement was shared - we were told to feel free to
decline/cancel any flights and to respect the wishes of any of our students
that were not up to flying that day). The thoughts we shared went back and
forth between the ones lost and the 'what could have gone wrong'
discussions.

The site of the accident was around the practice area that most of us visit
regularly with our students. The uncanny 'accuracy' (for lack of a better
word) that the plane went down into the sewage pond was dumbfounding. Of
course, the cruel irony of meeting one's end in a raw sewage pond made the
tragedy seem all the more poignant. They had to use a high pressure hose
with heavily chlorinated water to wash of the aircraft wreckage and the
bodies before copter lifting the wreckage (along with the bodies - secured
in by tarps and ropes) out of the emptied sewage pond and then set down on a
clear area nearby.

The wreckage was taken to Sacramento for study and the bodies were take to
the coroner.

One of our CFI's had been flying by the area and saw an aircraft spinning
in, but she had said that she was so high and the plane so low, that it
looked almost like a model radio airplane. It was after she landed that she
realized what she had just witnessed. Shoki had been one of her very close
friends at the flight school.

I didn't know the students very well, although I obviously knew them by
sight, in the day-to-day operations of the FBO.

I had been told years ago that if you fly long enough you will eventually
know someone who dies. Although another nearby business lost their owner in
a plane accident, this is the first time that this kind of tragedy has
struck in the 'home nest', as it were.

I took one of my students up for a flight yesterday and although the mood to
the aircraft was a somber one, talking about the loss - once we were in the
air, we both did what we had to do and focused our minds on the task.

There had been so many posts on this thread (which I wouldn't have noticed
until a friend mentioned the thread on this newsgroup; usually I'm just on
RAS), I just felt it important to put a human side, personal account of the
loss my flight school has gone through. There are three burning candles
with offerings of flowers on our front desk, commemorating the loss.

This was a profound loss that will be felt for some time.


--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Al G[_1_]]

"Cecil Chapman" > wrote in message
. net...
> Shoki, one of the three that were killed was one of my fellow CFI's at my
> FBO. While I only knew him in the day-to-day operations at our FBO, he
> was always one of the warmest and friendliest person you could hope to
> meet. The day he and his students died in that incredulously tragic crash
> I found myself trying to reconcile that I had just seen him earlier that
> day, walking by my desk in the CFI office area, smiling and waving as he
> always would as he went off to his flight instruction duties.
>
> The day after the accident all the CFI's met at the FBO, although none of
> us had any desire to fly; both out of respect for our fallen friend and
> because we were distracted by the loss of three of our own and were just
> not fit to fly.
>
> We hung around at the FBO for many hours (after an early morning meeting
> where the announcement was shared - we were told to feel free to
> decline/cancel any flights and to respect the wishes of any of our
> students that were not up to flying that day). The thoughts we shared
> went back and forth between the ones lost and the 'what could have gone
> wrong' discussions.
>
> The site of the accident was around the practice area that most of us
> visit regularly with our students. The uncanny 'accuracy' (for lack of a
> better word) that the plane went down into the sewage pond was
> dumbfounding. Of course, the cruel irony of meeting one's end in a raw
> sewage pond made the tragedy seem all the more poignant. They had to use
> a high pressure hose with heavily chlorinated water to wash of the
> aircraft wreckage and the bodies before copter lifting the wreckage (along
> with the bodies - secured in by tarps and ropes) out of the emptied sewage
> pond and then set down on a clear area nearby.
>
> The wreckage was taken to Sacramento for study and the bodies were take to
> the coroner.
>
> One of our CFI's had been flying by the area and saw an aircraft spinning
> in, but she had said that she was so high and the plane so low, that it
> looked almost like a model radio airplane. It was after she landed that
> she realized what she had just witnessed. Shoki had been one of her very
> close friends at the flight school.
>
> I didn't know the students very well, although I obviously knew them by
> sight, in the day-to-day operations of the FBO.
>
> I had been told years ago that if you fly long enough you will eventually
> know someone who dies. Although another nearby business lost their owner
> in a plane accident, this is the first time that this kind of tragedy has
> struck in the 'home nest', as it were.
>
> I took one of my students up for a flight yesterday and although the mood
> to the aircraft was a somber one, talking about the loss - once we were in
> the air, we both did what we had to do and focused our minds on the task.
>
> There had been so many posts on this thread (which I wouldn't have noticed
> until a friend mentioned the thread on this newsgroup; usually I'm just on
> RAS), I just felt it important to put a human side, personal account of
> the loss my flight school has gone through. There are three burning
> candles with offerings of flowers on our front desk, commemorating the
> loss.
>
> This was a profound loss that will be felt for some time.
>
>
> --
> --
> =-----
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman
> CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
> checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
> Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com
>
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
>
> "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
> this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> - Cecil Day Lewis -

Thanks, we had been wondering about you. Fate is the hunter, sometimes
it strikes VERY close to home. Hang in there.

Al G

[Jim Macklin]

The sad facts is that many airplanes will not recover from a
fully developed spin with the CG aft of the utility category
limit or with three people onboard or any baggage. If a
student gets into a spin and there is any delay in recovery
or any "fight" over the controls, the outcome will be
tragic.

Some maneuvers should not be done with any passengers, even
an observer or CFI in the back seats.


The meeting was a good thing as was the decision not to fly
that day. The boss's support was good too.





"Al G" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Cecil Chapman" > wrote in
message
| . net...
| > Shoki, one of the three that were killed was one of my
fellow CFI's at my
| > FBO. While I only knew him in the day-to-day
operations at our FBO, he
| > was always one of the warmest and friendliest person you
could hope to
| > meet. The day he and his students died in that
incredulously tragic crash
| > I found myself trying to reconcile that I had just seen
him earlier that
| > day, walking by my desk in the CFI office area, smiling
and waving as he
| > always would as he went off to his flight instruction
duties.
| >
| > The day after the accident all the CFI's met at the FBO,
although none of
| > us had any desire to fly; both out of respect for our
fallen friend and
| > because we were distracted by the loss of three of our
own and were just
| > not fit to fly.
| >
| > We hung around at the FBO for many hours (after an early
morning meeting
| > where the announcement was shared - we were told to feel
free to
| > decline/cancel any flights and to respect the wishes of
any of our
| > students that were not up to flying that day). The
thoughts we shared
| > went back and forth between the ones lost and the 'what
could have gone
| > wrong' discussions.
| >
| > The site of the accident was around the practice area
that most of us
| > visit regularly with our students. The uncanny
'accuracy' (for lack of a
| > better word) that the plane went down into the sewage
pond was
| > dumbfounding. Of course, the cruel irony of meeting
one's end in a raw
| > sewage pond made the tragedy seem all the more poignant.
They had to use
| > a high pressure hose with heavily chlorinated water to
wash of the
| > aircraft wreckage and the bodies before copter lifting
the wreckage (along
| > with the bodies - secured in by tarps and ropes) out of
the emptied sewage
| > pond and then set down on a clear area nearby.
| >
| > The wreckage was taken to Sacramento for study and the
bodies were take to
| > the coroner.
| >
| > One of our CFI's had been flying by the area and saw an
aircraft spinning
| > in, but she had said that she was so high and the plane
so low, that it
| > looked almost like a model radio airplane. It was after
she landed that
| > she realized what she had just witnessed. Shoki had
been one of her very
| > close friends at the flight school.
| >
| > I didn't know the students very well, although I
obviously knew them by
| > sight, in the day-to-day operations of the FBO.
| >
| > I had been told years ago that if you fly long enough
you will eventually
| > know someone who dies. Although another nearby business
lost their owner
| > in a plane accident, this is the first time that this
kind of tragedy has
| > struck in the 'home nest', as it were.
| >
| > I took one of my students up for a flight yesterday and
although the mood
| > to the aircraft was a somber one, talking about the
loss - once we were in
| > the air, we both did what we had to do and focused our
minds on the task.
| >
| > There had been so many posts on this thread (which I
wouldn't have noticed
| > until a friend mentioned the thread on this newsgroup;
usually I'm just on
| > RAS), I just felt it important to put a human side,
personal account of
| > the loss my flight school has gone through. There are
three burning
| > candles with offerings of flowers on our front desk,
commemorating the
| > loss.
| >
| > This was a profound loss that will be felt for some
time.
| >
| >
| > --
| > --
| > =-----
| > Good Flights!
| >
| > Cecil E. Chapman
| > CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA
| >
| > Check out my personal flying adventures from my first
flight to the
| > checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
| > Complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com
| >
| > "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of
petty things."
| > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
| >
| > "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive
in the air with
| > this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our
feet"
| > - Cecil Day Lewis -
|
| Thanks, we had been wondering about you. Fate is the
hunter, sometimes
| it strikes VERY close to home. Hang in there.
|
| Al G
|
|

[Cecil Chapman]

> The sad facts is that many airplanes will not recover from a
> fully developed spin with the CG aft of the utility category
> limit or with three people onboard or any baggage. If a
> student gets into a spin and there is any delay in recovery
> or any "fight" over the controls, the outcome will be
> tragic.
>
> Some maneuvers should not be done with any passengers, even
> an observer or CFI in the back seats.
>
>
> The meeting was a good thing as was the decision not to fly
> that day. The boss's support was good too.

The crash occurred in a Beechcraft Travelair (a multi-engine airplane) and
there is no published procedure on how to even recover from a spin in one of
these aircraft should a spin develop.

None of us were going to fly the day after and you're quite right that the
chief pilot was right on about honoring our feelings and those of our
students in the matter. Shoki was a very good friend of his and you could
see as he was telling us how deeply affected by the loss (and those of the
students) he was.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Danny Deger]

"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
> Appalling, but hard to ignore.
>
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/18/BAGU8N26CP4.DTL
>
> Don

Maybe it was suicide. The pilots last words were, "I am tired of all this
sh..".

Danny Deger

[Danny Deger]

"Cecil Chapman" > wrote in message
. net...
snip

> This was a profound loss that will be felt for some time.
>
>

Thanks for the nice post.

Do you know what happened? Was it caused by praticing single engine out
flight?

Danny Deger

[Danny Deger]

"Cecil Chapman" > wrote in message
news:NuAih.5082$
snip
>> The sad facts is that many airplanes will not recover from a
>> fully developed spin with the CG aft of the utility category
>> limit or with three people onboard or any baggage. If a
>> student gets into a spin and there is any delay in recovery
>> or any "fight" over the controls, the outcome will be
>> tragic.
>>
>> Some maneuvers should not be done with any passengers, even
>> an observer or CFI in the back seats.
>>
>>
>> The meeting was a good thing as was the decision not to fly
>> that day. The boss's support was good too.
>
> The crash occurred in a Beechcraft Travelair (a multi-engine airplane) and
> there is no published procedure on how to even recover from a spin in one
> of these aircraft should a spin develop.
>

My understanding is most multi-engine planes will not recover from a spin.
They tend to spin flat without a chance of recovery.

Danny Deger

[Peter Dohm]

There is also the possibility of an uncommanded loss of power in one engine
while at or near VMC. Real failures occasionally happen at inconvenient
times.

Peter
"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> The sad facts is that many airplanes will not recover from a
> fully developed spin with the CG aft of the utility category
> limit or with three people onboard or any baggage. If a
> student gets into a spin and there is any delay in recovery
> or any "fight" over the controls, the outcome will be
> tragic.
>
> Some maneuvers should not be done with any passengers, even
> an observer or CFI in the back seats.
>
>
> The meeting was a good thing as was the decision not to fly
> that day. The boss's support was good too.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Al G" > wrote in message
> ...
> |
> | "Cecil Chapman" > wrote in
> message
> | . net...
> | > Shoki, one of the three that were killed was one of my
> fellow CFI's at my
> | > FBO. While I only knew him in the day-to-day
> operations at our FBO, he
> | > was always one of the warmest and friendliest person you
> could hope to
> | > meet. The day he and his students died in that
> incredulously tragic crash
> | > I found myself trying to reconcile that I had just seen
> him earlier that
> | > day, walking by my desk in the CFI office area, smiling
> and waving as he
> | > always would as he went off to his flight instruction
> duties.
> | >
> | > The day after the accident all the CFI's met at the FBO,
> although none of
> | > us had any desire to fly; both out of respect for our
> fallen friend and
> | > because we were distracted by the loss of three of our
> own and were just
> | > not fit to fly.
> | >
> | > We hung around at the FBO for many hours (after an early
> morning meeting
> | > where the announcement was shared - we were told to feel
> free to
> | > decline/cancel any flights and to respect the wishes of
> any of our
> | > students that were not up to flying that day). The
> thoughts we shared
> | > went back and forth between the ones lost and the 'what
> could have gone
> | > wrong' discussions.
> | >
> | > The site of the accident was around the practice area
> that most of us
> | > visit regularly with our students. The uncanny
> 'accuracy' (for lack of a
> | > better word) that the plane went down into the sewage
> pond was
> | > dumbfounding. Of course, the cruel irony of meeting
> one's end in a raw
> | > sewage pond made the tragedy seem all the more poignant.
> They had to use
> | > a high pressure hose with heavily chlorinated water to
> wash of the
> | > aircraft wreckage and the bodies before copter lifting
> the wreckage (along
> | > with the bodies - secured in by tarps and ropes) out of
> the emptied sewage
> | > pond and then set down on a clear area nearby.
> | >
> | > The wreckage was taken to Sacramento for study and the
> bodies were take to
> | > the coroner.
> | >
> | > One of our CFI's had been flying by the area and saw an
> aircraft spinning
> | > in, but she had said that she was so high and the plane
> so low, that it
> | > looked almost like a model radio airplane. It was after
> she landed that
> | > she realized what she had just witnessed. Shoki had
> been one of her very
> | > close friends at the flight school.
> | >
> | > I didn't know the students very well, although I
> obviously knew them by
> | > sight, in the day-to-day operations of the FBO.
> | >
> | > I had been told years ago that if you fly long enough
> you will eventually
> | > know someone who dies. Although another nearby business
> lost their owner
> | > in a plane accident, this is the first time that this
> kind of tragedy has
> | > struck in the 'home nest', as it were.
> | >
> | > I took one of my students up for a flight yesterday and
> although the mood
> | > to the aircraft was a somber one, talking about the
> loss - once we were in
> | > the air, we both did what we had to do and focused our
> minds on the task.
> | >
> | > There had been so many posts on this thread (which I
> wouldn't have noticed
> | > until a friend mentioned the thread on this newsgroup;
> usually I'm just on
> | > RAS), I just felt it important to put a human side,
> personal account of
> | > the loss my flight school has gone through. There are
> three burning
> | > candles with offerings of flowers on our front desk,
> commemorating the
> | > loss.
> | >
> | > This was a profound loss that will be felt for some
> time.
> | >
> | >
> | > --
> | > --
> | > =-----
> | > Good Flights!
> | >
> | > Cecil E. Chapman
> | > CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA
> | >
> | > Check out my personal flying adventures from my first
> flight to the
> | > checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
> | > Complete with pictures and text at:
> www.bayareapilot.com
> | >
> | > "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of
> petty things."
> | > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
> | >
> | > "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive
> in the air with
> | > this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our
> feet"
> | > - Cecil Day Lewis -
> |
> | Thanks, we had been wondering about you. Fate is the
> hunter, sometimes
> | it strikes VERY close to home. Hang in there.
> |
> | Al G
> |
> |
>
>

[Cecil Chapman]

> There is also the possibility of an uncommanded loss of power in one
> engine
> while at or near VMC. Real failures occasionally happen at inconvenient
> times.
>
> Peter
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message


Of course, it is just us 'guessing' but I too think that is one of the most
likely scenarios. In fact, one of the first ones that was mentioned when we
were all at my FBO the day after trying to sort out the 'how' of the
accident.

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[[email protected]]

>
> Pretty hard to miss. Which portion of CA is not a sewage tank...?
> -----

This is an inappropriate and disgusting comment especially in the light
of this tragedy.

[Jim Macklin]

The Beech 95-55 and the Baron with a two blade prop behaves
differently with a rotating prop or a feathered prop, and
the stall/spin characteristics is different depending on
whether the prop is stopped along or perpendicular to the
wing. I know some people who have spun a twin accidentally
and recovered, but they had empty backseats and no baggage.

Beech did in fact do the full series of spin tests on the
Duchess but decided not to certify for intentional spins.
The US Army did extensive spin testing on the Baron as part
of the Army's acceptance of the Baron as the T-42
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/t-42.htm

It is likely that the FAA/NTSB investigation will be just
more guesses. Just what was being done, what actions for
recovery were tried and initial entry altitudes may never be
known. It is too bad.



"Cecil Chapman" > wrote in
message
t...
|> The sad facts is that many airplanes will not recover
from a
| > fully developed spin with the CG aft of the utility
category
| > limit or with three people onboard or any baggage. If a
| > student gets into a spin and there is any delay in
recovery
| > or any "fight" over the controls, the outcome will be
| > tragic.
| >
| > Some maneuvers should not be done with any passengers,
even
| > an observer or CFI in the back seats.
| >
| >
| > The meeting was a good thing as was the decision not to
fly
| > that day. The boss's support was good too.
|
| The crash occurred in a Beechcraft Travelair (a
multi-engine airplane) and
| there is no published procedure on how to even recover
from a spin in one of
| these aircraft should a spin develop.
|
| None of us were going to fly the day after and you're
quite right that the
| chief pilot was right on about honoring our feelings and
those of our
| students in the matter. Shoki was a very good friend of
his and you could
| see as he was telling us how deeply affected by the loss
(and those of the
| students) he was.
|
| --
| --
| =-----
| Good Flights!
|
| Cecil E. Chapman
| CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA
|
| Check out my personal flying adventures from my first
flight to the
| checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
| Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com
|
| "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of
petty things."
| - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
|
| "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive
in the air with
| this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
| - Cecil Day Lewis -
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

Not true, but they must be promptly and forcefully recovered
before becoming stabilized. It also helps to have but props
rotating and at idle. The position of a feathered prop can
act as a rudder or a spoiler. Some twins are heavily span
loaded and others have the mass concentrated in the
fuselage.

Very few twins are spin tested and there is little public
information about any particular model.

But any accidental spin is a killer, more so in a twin.



"Danny Deger" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Cecil Chapman" > wrote in
message
| news:NuAih.5082$
| snip
| >> The sad facts is that many airplanes will not recover
from a
| >> fully developed spin with the CG aft of the utility
category
| >> limit or with three people onboard or any baggage. If
a
| >> student gets into a spin and there is any delay in
recovery
| >> or any "fight" over the controls, the outcome will be
| >> tragic.
| >>
| >> Some maneuvers should not be done with any passengers,
even
| >> an observer or CFI in the back seats.
| >>
| >>
| >> The meeting was a good thing as was the decision not to
fly
| >> that day. The boss's support was good too.
| >
| > The crash occurred in a Beechcraft Travelair (a
multi-engine airplane) and
| > there is no published procedure on how to even recover
from a spin in one
| > of these aircraft should a spin develop.
| >
|
| My understanding is most multi-engine planes will not
recover from a spin.
| They tend to spin flat without a chance of recovery.
|
| Danny Deger
|
|
|

[gpsman]

wrote:
> >
> > Pretty hard to miss. Which portion of CA is not a sewage tank...?
> > -----
>
> This is an inappropriate and disgusting comment especially in the light
> of this tragedy.

If I pretend CA isn't a ******** for 5 seconds, will that make it all
better...? <closes eyes and pretends> That's all the energy I'm
willing to expend... and, I insist on a clause where I "admit no
wrongdoing".
-----

- gpsman

[karl gruber[_1_]]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>>
>> Pretty hard to miss. Which portion of CA is not a sewage tank...?
>> -----
>
> This is an inappropriate and disgusting comment especially in the light
> of this tragedy.
>

Welcome to usenet!

[[email protected]]

> > This is an inappropriate and disgusting comment especially in the light
> > of this tragedy.
> >
>
> Welcome to usenet!

I agree, thanks for the reminder :)

[Blueskies]

"Cecil Chapman" > wrote in message . net...
: Shoki, one of the three that were killed was one of my fellow CFI's at my
: FBO. While I only knew him in the day-to-day operations at our FBO, he was
: always one of the warmest and friendliest person you could hope to meet.
: The day he and his students died in that incredulously tragic crash I found
: myself trying to reconcile that I had just seen him earlier that day,
: walking by my desk in the CFI office area, smiling and waving as he always
: would as he went off to his flight instruction duties.
:

Thanks for the post, Cecil...