Married Couples and CRM (followon to Courious Crash)

[john smith]

What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

(Taking this thread into a new direction)
Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?
What type of resolution do they use?
If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?
Does one or the other have overriding veto?

[mad8]

the wife is always right lol.

john smith wrote:
> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
> might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>
> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
> challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?
> What type of resolution do they use?
> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
> out?
> Does one or the other have overriding veto?

[tom]

Even though my wife does not have a pilot certificate, she does have an
amazing common sense. She is never reluctant to share it. She also
seems to have an uncanny knack for understanding most of the aviation
faux pas. If she catches me doing anything that "seems" out of place,
I hear about it immediately.

My opinion is that the level of feedback one spouse to another depends
more on the personality of the couples than it does on the formal
training of either. This would probably also be true of the cases
where two unrelated pilots get into trouble, or even a CFI and some
students.

tom

john smith wrote:
> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
> challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?

[Mxsmanic]

john smith writes:

> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
> might lead to an uncertain outcome?

I don't see why this would be any different from any two pilots who
have a personal bond with each other in addition to their piloting
association. The difference, if there is one, is merely one of degree
(most pilots don't love their co-pilots).

Beyond that, it's personality.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> john smith writes:
>
> > What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
> > would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
> > might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>
> I don't see why this would be any different from any two pilots who
> have a personal bond with each other in addition to their piloting
> association. The difference, if there is one, is merely one of degree
> (most pilots don't love their co-pilots).

Ok, so we know that Mxsmanic isn't married.

-Robert

[RST Engineering]

> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.

Jim & Gail.


> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a challenge
> and response type of CRM when they fly together?

That's generally the way our checklists are done.

> What type of resolution do they use?

Depends on whose Palm we are using. Hers has a 640 x 480 screen.

> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
> out?

Either one can say "I don't like this. Let's (a) not do it or (b) land and
think about it.

> Does one or the other have overriding veto?

Absolutely not. EIther one can pull the plug at any time.

Jim
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
> might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>
> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a challenge
> and response type of CRM when they fly together?
> What type of resolution do they use?
> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
> out?
> Does one or the other have overriding veto?

As much as I personally dislike agreeing with Mxsmanic, his post in the
thread is exactly right.

This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left immediately
to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards directly ahead of me on a
collision course at co altitude and my wife sitting next to me who is non
rated told me at the exact same instant to continue flying straight on, by
the time common sense and a deep primal fear (both associated with the
ramifications of increased yard work that would most certainly be the result
if I ignored my wife) passed through my thought process, we would have hit
the 747 and the point of the initial poster's question would then be moot.
Dudley Henriques

[Paul Riley]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
>
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
>> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
>> might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>>
>> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
>> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
>> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
>> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a challenge
>> and response type of CRM when they fly together?
>> What type of resolution do they use?
>> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
>> out?
>> Does one or the other have overriding veto?
>
> As much as I personally dislike agreeing with Mxsmanic, his post in the
> thread is exactly right.
>
> This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left immediately
> to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards directly ahead of me on
> a collision course at co altitude and my wife sitting next to me who is
> non rated told me at the exact same instant to continue flying straight
> on, by the time common sense and a deep primal fear (both associated with
> the ramifications of increased yard work that would most certainly be the
> result if I ignored my wife) passed through my thought process, we would
> have hit the 747 and the point of the initial poster's question would then
> be moot.
> Dudley Henriques
>

So sayeth someone who OBVIOUSLY has been married to the same woman for MANY
years. :-)))))

Paul (who just celebrated his 50th anniversary with his bride in
September) --It took me about 30 seconds after I said "I do" to learn to say
"Yes Dear"!! Some lessons you never forget--thankfully!!! :)))))

[Paul Riley]

"Paul Riley" > wrote in message
. net...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "john smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
>>> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
>>> might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>>>
>>> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
>>> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
>>> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
>>> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
>>> challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?
>>> What type of resolution do they use?
>>> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
>>> out?
>>> Does one or the other have overriding veto?
>>
>> As much as I personally dislike agreeing with Mxsmanic, his post in the
>> thread is exactly right.
>>
>> This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left
>> immediately to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards directly
>> ahead of me on a collision course at co altitude and my wife sitting next
>> to me who is non rated told me at the exact same instant to continue
>> flying straight on, by the time common sense and a deep primal fear (both
>> associated with the ramifications of increased yard work that would most
>> certainly be the result if I ignored my wife) passed through my thought
>> process, we would have hit the 747 and the point of the initial poster's
>> question would then be moot.
>> Dudley Henriques
>>
>
> So sayeth someone who OBVIOUSLY has been married to the same woman for
> MANY years. :-)))))
>
> Paul (who just celebrated his 50th anniversary with his bride in
> September) --It took me about 30 seconds after I said "I do" to learn to
> say "Yes Dear"!! Some lessons you never forget--thankfully!!! :)))))
>

What I forgot to add was that my normal reactions would have already have me
in a steep bank avoiding the oncoming aircraft well before my bride's
comments reached my ears!! I suspect the same is true for Dudley!! :-))) In
which case, the discussion would continue!!! Followed by the "Yes Dear"
comment. :-)))))

Paul

[john smith]

Being a married man, you of course considered your wife's punishment first.
Is this a case of the known verses the possible outcome?
Would this be a fate worse than death? :-))

Dudley Henriques wrote:

>"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
>>would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
>>might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>>
>>(Taking this thread into a new direction)
>>Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
>>couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
>>Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a challenge
>>and response type of CRM when they fly together?
>>What type of resolution do they use?
>>If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
>>out?
>>Does one or the other have overriding veto?
>>
>>
>
>As much as I personally dislike agreeing with Mxsmanic, his post in the
>thread is exactly right.
>
>This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left immediately
>to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards directly ahead of me on a
>collision course at co altitude and my wife sitting next to me who is non
>rated told me at the exact same instant to continue flying straight on, by
>the time common sense and a deep primal fear (both associated with the
>ramifications of increased yard work that would most certainly be the result
>if I ignored my wife) passed through my thought process, we would have hit
>the 747 and the point of the initial poster's question would then be moot.
>Dudley Henriques
>
>

[john smith]

OOPS!! Sorry, how careless of me to forget fellow Wrong Brothers. :-))

RST Engineering wrote:

>>(Taking this thread into a new direction)
>>Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
>>couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
>>
>>
>
>Jim & Gail.
>
>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Paul Riley" > wrote in message
. net...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...

>> This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left
>> immediately to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards directly
>> ahead of me on a collision course at co altitude and my wife sitting next
>> to me who is non rated told me at the exact same instant to continue
>> flying straight on, by the time common sense and a deep primal fear (both
>> associated with the ramifications of increased yard work that would most
>> certainly be the result if I ignored my wife) passed through my thought
>> process, we would have hit the 747 and the point of the initial poster's
>> question would then be moot.
>> Dudley Henriques
>>
>
> So sayeth someone who OBVIOUSLY has been married to the same woman for
> MANY years. :-)))))
>
> Paul (who just celebrated his 50th anniversary with his bride in
> September) --It took me about 30 seconds after I said "I do" to learn to
> say "Yes Dear"!! Some lessons you never forget--thankfully!!! :)))))

40 years actually :-))

You are absolutely right. I learned early on that the best way to get in the
last two words with my wife was to say "yes dear"
:-)
DH

[Dudley Henriques]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Being a married man, you of course considered your wife's punishment
> first.
> Is this a case of the known verses the possible outcome?
> Would this be a fate worse than death? :-))

Actually, the "known" in this case isn't the collision but the yard work.
The "possible outcome" would be the 747.
Hell, I might have had at least a SHOT at missing the 747............but not
listening to my wife....................In math, we call that a " result
constant". :-)))
DH

[Jay Honeck]

> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
> might lead to an uncertain outcome?

I have no idea. Mary and I operate like yin and yang, left brain/right
brain, leaving little room (we hope) for error. How two pilots,
spouses, no less, could press a bad situation is beyond me.

(Of course, has anyone determined for sure that there was a situation
badly pressed in this recent accident?)

> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
> challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?

Not exactly. We each have our own methods of pre-flight and
pre-landing check-lists, and we both keep a watchful eye on the other,
making sure that no items are overlooked. I don't speak up unless
something is obviously out of place, however.

The only time we use a call-out system is on the takeoff roll, when the
stakes are highest. The copilot's call-outs are:

1. "Six good bars" (meaning that our JPI EDM-700 engine analyzer is
showing all six cylinders functioning properly)

2. "Manifold pressure good"

3. "RPMs good"

4. "Airspeed's alive"

If any one of these four parameters aren't met to our satisfaction, we
will abort the takeoff. By doing it this way, the pilot can keep his
eyes on the runway, instead of down inside the plane.

> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
> out?

As a VFR pilot with IFR training (but no IR), my minimums are somewhat
lower than Mary's. (She has had no IFR training since her Private.)
Thus, occasionally she will express concern that the ceiling is coming
down, or visibility is getting lower than her comfort level.

We will have a brief discussion (if I'm flying), or we will land
immediately (if she's flying). There has only been one occasion (in 12
years) where I pressed on when she really wanted to land, and I have
regretted it ever since...if you know what I mean... ;-)

> Does one or the other have overriding veto?

Nope. We both have an equal say in the cockpit -- but we also know
that the copilot NEVER takes control of the plane unless they feel
their lives are directly threatened. This has also only happened once
(when I saw a plane on a collision course coming in from our 8 o'clock
position, and pushed the yoke down without warning) in 12 years.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Beckman]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
> might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>
> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a challenge
> and response type of CRM when they fly together?
> What type of resolution do they use?
> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
> out?
> Does one or the other have overriding veto?
>

Just some anecdotal info:

At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known Husband/Wife
flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them. As
they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the sense
that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple solution:
The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.

Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged CRM
meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they have
learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as they
fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you too
far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as PIC
but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
difference for them.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL-FS (Flightless Spouse)
Chandler, AZ

[Jim Logajan]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
> This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left
> immediately to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards
> directly ahead of me on a collision course at co altitude and my wife
> sitting next to me who is non rated told me at the exact same instant
> to continue flying straight on, by the time common sense and a deep
> primal fear (both associated with the ramifications of increased yard
> work that would most certainly be the result if I ignored my wife)
> passed through my thought process, we would have hit the 747 and the
> point of the initial poster's question would then be moot.

Sorry, but being killed is no excuse from yard work!

(Just came in from a couple hours of said yard work. Raking is a great way
to burn off the calories from all the holiday cookies and other goodies
that appear this time of year! ;-))

[Peter Dohm]

> > What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
> > would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
> > might lead to an uncertain outcome?
> >
> > (Taking this thread into a new direction)
> > Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
> > couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
> > Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
challenge
> > and response type of CRM when they fly together?
> > What type of resolution do they use?
> > If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
> > out?
> > Does one or the other have overriding veto?
> >
>
> Just some anecdotal info:
>
> At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known
Husband/Wife
> flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them.
As
> they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the
sense
> that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple
solution:
> The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
> which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.
>
> Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged CRM
> meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they
have
> learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as
they
> fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you too
> far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
> localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
> business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as
PIC
> but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
> difference for them.
>
This was also revisited in the September 2006 issue of AOPA Pilot.

Peter

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>> This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left
>> immediately to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards
>> directly ahead of me on a collision course at co altitude and my wife
>> sitting next to me who is non rated told me at the exact same instant
>> to continue flying straight on, by the time common sense and a deep
>> primal fear (both associated with the ramifications of increased yard
>> work that would most certainly be the result if I ignored my wife)
>> passed through my thought process, we would have hit the 747 and the
>> point of the initial poster's question would then be moot.
>
> Sorry, but being killed is no excuse from yard work!

Exactly what my wife said !

>
> (Just came in from a couple hours of said yard work. Raking is a great way
> to burn off the calories from all the holiday cookies and other goodies
> that appear this time of year! ;-))

We spent the whole day making oatmeal cookies for the annual family
Christmas get together (and wrapping paper fight). From the looks of what we
put into that food processor bowl to make those things, I'll be walking it
off for the next year!!
Dudley Henriques

[[email protected]]

tom wrote:
> Even though my wife does not have a pilot certificate, she does have an
> amazing common sense. She is never reluctant to share it. She also
> seems to have an uncanny knack for understanding most of the aviation
> faux pas. If she catches me doing anything that "seems" out of place,
> I hear about it immediately.

Yep, I can relate to Tom's experiences. Heck, when I am high on
approach, she knows. My so called mistake was explaining the VASI /
PAPI light system.

She knows my preflight routine, and if I even hesitate on something,
she is all over me wanting to know what's up.

We keep a seperate "log" for her, and she has accumulated 103 hours of
flying time with me. I will say she has been a trooper through it
all.

She will take 1 1/2 hour trips with no problems, but still antsy about
anything longer then that, not for the equipment or pilot, but the
weather which I fully understand.

She will tolerate pop corn type clouds, but anything more denser, she'd
just as well stay on the ground, which I fully respect.

Heck, she goes with me, so I don't ask anything more then that :-)
since I am sure it's a huge step for her to get this far.

Allen

[Christopher Campbell[_1_]]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:50 -0800, Jay Beckman wrote
(in article >):

> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
>> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
>> might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>>
>> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
>> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
>> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
>> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a challenge
>> and response type of CRM when they fly together?
>> What type of resolution do they use?
>> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
>> out?
>> Does one or the other have overriding veto?
>>
>
> Just some anecdotal info:
>
> At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known Husband/Wife
> flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them. As
> they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the sense
> that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple solution:
> The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
> which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.
>
> Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged CRM
> meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they have
> learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as they
> fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you too
> far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
> localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
> business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as PIC
> but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
> difference for them.

They also have another rule that works very well for them: most chicken pilot
wins. If one does not want to go, they don't go.

[Walt]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
> "Paul Riley" > wrote in message

> > Paul (who just celebrated his 50th anniversary with his bride in
> > September) --It took me about 30 seconds after I said "I do" to learn to
> > say "Yes Dear"!! Some lessons you never forget--thankfully!!! :)))))
>
> 40 years actually :-))
>
> You are absolutely right. I learned early on that the best way to get in the
> last two words with my wife was to say "yes dear"
> :-)
> DH

Okay, just 35 years for me. I'm a young'un.

One advantage of living in Montana: yard work only lasts for about two
weeks every year.

I won't talk about the snow shoveling, though. :>)

After years of flying with me, my wife has become a master of subtlety.
On short final: "Hon, why are those lights on the side of the runway
all red? OH, I see, you're trying to avoid that hawk that's soaring two
thousand feet above us. You are SO clever!".

It's similar to, "Hon, I let the cat out and I watched her disappear in
the snow somewhere on the driveway. Will you go dig her out? Please?"

I hate it when she does that. :>)

--Walt

[Dudley Henriques]

"Walt" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>> "Paul Riley" > wrote in message
>
>> > Paul (who just celebrated his 50th anniversary with his bride in
>> > September) --It took me about 30 seconds after I said "I do" to learn
>> > to
>> > say "Yes Dear"!! Some lessons you never forget--thankfully!!! :)))))
>>
>> 40 years actually :-))
>>
>> You are absolutely right. I learned early on that the best way to get in
>> the
>> last two words with my wife was to say "yes dear"
>> :-)
>> DH
>
> Okay, just 35 years for me. I'm a young'un.
>
> One advantage of living in Montana: yard work only lasts for about two
> weeks every year.
>
> I won't talk about the snow shoveling, though. :>)
>
> After years of flying with me, my wife has become a master of subtlety.
> On short final: "Hon, why are those lights on the side of the runway
> all red? OH, I see, you're trying to avoid that hawk that's soaring two
> thousand feet above us. You are SO clever!".
>
> It's similar to, "Hon, I let the cat out and I watched her disappear in
> the snow somewhere on the driveway. Will you go dig her out? Please?"
>
> I hate it when she does that. :>)
>
> --Walt

I think the girls must attend some kind of educational course somewhere
along the way that prepares them for married life .
Mine seems to have graduated from the "ambiguity school". She'll be giving
me directions helping me find someplace we are going then suddenly get
silent as I start into an intersection at cruise speed. She'll suddenly
scream, "Turn left, right here!!!"
I'm on to this however after 40 odd years and now anticipate this brain
twister by mentally reversing as she screams at me and this ultimately
causes me to make the right decision.
I'm not absolutely certain mind you, but I'm fairly sure that men married
for years who have developed this ability qualify at least past the first
interview for Astronaut training at NASA!! :-)))
Dudley Henriques

[Montblack]

("john smith" wrote)
> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.


J.O. and Stella Star


Montblack

[Roger[_4_]]

On 19 Dec 2006 15:22:33 -0800, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
>> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
>> might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>
>I have no idea. Mary and I operate like yin and yang, left brain/right
>brain, leaving little room (we hope) for error. How two pilots,
>spouses, no less, could press a bad situation is beyond me.
>
>(Of course, has anyone determined for sure that there was a situation
>badly pressed in this recent accident?)
>
>> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
>> challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?
>
>Not exactly. We each have our own methods of pre-flight and
>pre-landing check-lists, and we both keep a watchful eye on the other,
>making sure that no items are overlooked. I don't speak up unless
>something is obviously out of place, however.
>
>The only time we use a call-out system is on the takeoff roll, when the
>stakes are highest. The copilot's call-outs are:
>
My wife doesn't pilot and our's is rather simple inside.
However I'd think the husband and wife pilots would operate, or should
operate like any two rate pilots in front. One is PIC the other is
helper, but safety from any quarter takes precedence and input from
either seat should be evaluated.

>1. "Six good bars" (meaning that our JPI EDM-700 engine analyzer is
>showing all six cylinders functioning properly)

Bars? Analyzer?

Engine is running!
>
>2. "Manifold pressure good"
>
Runway lights are moving by.

>3. "RPMs good"
Revolutions per minutes?

Engine got louder

>
>4. "Airspeed's alive"

Runway lights are moving faster.

>
>If any one of these four parameters aren't met to our satisfaction, we
>will abort the takeoff. By doing it this way, the pilot can keep his
>eyes on the runway, instead of down inside the plane.

Looking down on take off?

IRL I check MP, oil pressure, and RPM after applying full power.
I don't look back in except to check speed just before rotation which
should happen about 800 feet down the runway. If it don't I don't.
The next look at the gages is when I do the power reduction. All the
rest is by sound and feel.

It wouldn't matter if God were in the right seat, but if I hear "Dear,
I need to use the bathroom", or "I forgot to take the Dramamine" we're
landing" as long as there's at least a couple hundred feet of runway
left.

>
>> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
>> out?
>
>As a VFR pilot with IFR training (but no IR), my minimums are somewhat
>lower than Mary's. (She has had no IFR training since her Private.)
>Thus, occasionally she will express concern that the ceiling is coming
>down, or visibility is getting lower than her comfort level.
>
>We will have a brief discussion (if I'm flying), or we will land
>immediately (if she's flying). There has only been one occasion (in 12
>years) where I pressed on when she really wanted to land, and I have
>regretted it ever since...if you know what I mean... ;-)
>
>> Does one or the other have overriding veto?
>
>Nope. We both have an equal say in the cockpit -- but we also know
>that the copilot NEVER takes control of the plane unless they feel

I once had a close encounter. Very close encounter on the VOR to MOP.
I was under the hood and of course the instructor was not. Instead of
grabbing the yoke, he hollered pull up and I instinctively shoved the
throttle in as I stood it on end or nearly so. He had not even
finished the "up" and we were pulling "Gs". We might have bent the 30
degrees in pitch rule more than a little. As the airspeed came down I
eased the nose down. We missed the other plane by inches according to
what I heard from others later. He'd never tell me how close it was.

With two people of the same capabilities flying the same plane it'd
be a different situation. OTOH I'd holler first and react only if the
pilot didn't.

One day we (instructor and I - not the same CFII as above) were out
doing some instrument work. He was checking the instruments out and
started to ask me a question just as ATC came on with some
instructions. I raised my hand to signal quite! Unfortunately I raised
it rather quickly and he was leaning forward. He commented later that
he would never, ever touch anything in the Deb without first saying he
was going to do so. I had hit him right in the snot box and it was not
a gentle tap. Fortunately he knew it was not on purpose and we still
fly together.

_Boy_an_I_glad_ that_wasn't_Joyce!

>their lives are directly threatened. This has also only happened once
>(when I saw a plane on a collision course coming in from our 8 o'clock
>position, and pushed the yoke down without warning) in 12 years.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
>She'll be giving
> me directions helping me find someplace we are going then suddenly get
> silent as I start into an intersection at cruise speed. She'll suddenly
> scream, "Turn left, right here!!!"....

After only 18 years together, my wife has me trained even beyond that...
Several years ago while driving down a near empty interstate highway at,
let's just say well over the legal speed limit, we approach an off ramp.
Not an off ramp that we intend to use, just an off ramp. At the very last
second my wife screams THIS IS OUR EXIT!!! And I, like a well trained
husband, crank the wheel to the right and we're instantly heading up the off
ramp at over 80mph. As I stomp on the brakes trying to get us slowed down
before we sail through the stop sign at the top of the ramp, I start to look
around and see nothing.... absolutely nothing... so now I'm both wondering
what in the world she's doing and getting slightly irate because I don't
know what she's doing.... then I saw it... the only building within view...
sitting on the back side of a gravel parking lot... all alone... out in the
boondocks... painted.... pink. An adult book store.

And she starts to laugh.

So now every time we drive by an off ramp with an adult book store at the
end of it, we both look at each other and say "This is your exit".

Jim

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...

> After only 18 years together, my wife has me trained even beyond that...

Great story! Just imagine how well trained you'll be after 40 years!!!!!
:-))

Dudley Henriques

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>snip< Just imagine how well trained you'll be after 40 years!!!!!
> Dudley Henriques

That's what SHE keeps telling me!! :))

Jim

[John Ousterhout]

Montblack wrote:
> ("john smith" wrote)
>> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
>> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
>> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
>
>
> J.O. and Stella Star
>
>
> Montblack

That's right.

When we fly together:

.. The pilot not flying helps navigate.

.. The pilot not flying resists the urge to scream or grab the yoke.

.. The pilot not flying does not offer correction to the pilot flying
unless absolutely necessary, i.e., fear of death.


Our biggest problem is personal preference.

You like a Low Wing and I like a High Wing.
You say it's manly and call me a sissy.
Low Wing, High Wing, Manly, Sissy.
Let's call the whole flight off.

You like a Piper and I like a Cessna.
You like an Archer and I like a Skyhawk.
Piper, Cessna, Archer, Skyhawk.
Let's call the whole flight off.

My apologies to George and Ira Gershwin.

- John Ousterhout -

[Al G[_1_]]

"Christopher Campbell" > wrote in message
e.com...
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:50 -0800, Jay Beckman wrote
> (in article >):
>
>> "john smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
>>> would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
>>> might lead to an uncertain outcome?
>>>
>>> (Taking this thread into a new direction)
>>> Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
>>> couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
>>> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
>>> challenge
>>> and response type of CRM when they fly together?
>>> What type of resolution do they use?
>>> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
>>> out?
>>> Does one or the other have overriding veto?
>>>
>>
>> Just some anecdotal info:
>>
>> At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known
>> Husband/Wife
>> flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them.
>> As
>> they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the
>> sense
>> that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple
>> solution:
>> The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
>> which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.
>>
>> Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged
>> CRM
>> meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they
>> have
>> learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as
>> they
>> fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you
>> too
>> far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
>> localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
>> business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as
>> PIC
>> but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
>> difference for them.
>
> They also have another rule that works very well for them: most chicken
> pilot
> wins. If one does not want to go, they don't go.
>
And the Higher altitude wins. I think we should be a 7000, she thinks
8000, 8 it is. On the localizer, she'll occaisionally say something like:
"Ah, Bracketing" as I start a my third turn toward the needle.

Al G

[RST Engineering]

Um, that would be 7000 and 9000 (>3000 AGL) wouldn't it?

Jim


> And the Higher altitude wins. I think we should be a 7000, she thinks
> 8000, 8 it is. On the localizer, she'll occaisionally say something like:
> "Ah, Bracketing" as I start a my third turn toward the needle.
>
> Al G
>
>

[Jose[_1_]]

> And the Higher altitude wins. I think we should be a 7000, she thinks
> 8000, 8 it is.

Freezing level 7500.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Montblack]

("John Ousterhout" wrote)
> My apologies to George and Ira Gershwin.


I used to think they were a married couple.


Montblack

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

.....see what Vicoden does to you? :) lol
Jim

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("John Ousterhout" wrote)
> > My apologies to George and Ira Gershwin.
>
>
> I used to think they were a married couple.
>
>
> Montblack
>
>

[Montblack]

("Jim Burns" wrote)
> ....see what Vicoden does to you? :) lol


I'm in my hoarding mode now.

I'm down to one pill every few days - only used now if I know I'll be
pushing it a little too hard that day (which, of course, I won't know until
too late, since I'll have a Vicodin in me <g>)

Hanging lights, setting up tables, moving things around, unstacking chairs,
etc. over at the Chapter Hangar for our Christmas party ...comes to mind.
:-)


Montblack

[Al G[_1_]]

"Jose" > wrote in message
et...
>> And the Higher altitude wins. I think we should be a 7000, she thinks
>> 8000, 8 it is.
>
> Freezing level 7500.
>
> Jose

Then we have time to bicker about it. Avoiding terrain is always high on
our list of things to do.

Al G

[Jay Honeck]

> You like a Low Wing and I like a High Wing.
> You say it's manly and call me a sissy.
> Low Wing, High Wing, Manly, Sissy.
> Let's call the whole flight off.
>
> You like a Piper and I like a Cessna.
> You like an Archer and I like a Skyhawk.
> Piper, Cessna, Archer, Skyhawk.
> Let's call the whole flight off.

Outstanding!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose[_1_]]

> Then we have time to bicker about it. Avoiding terrain is always high on
> our list of things to do.

Ok, then it's not true that "the highest altitude always wins". :)

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Longworth]

On Dec 19, 3:43 pm, john smith > wrote:

> Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
> challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?
> What type of resolution do they use?
> If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
> out?
> Does one or the other have overriding veto?

My husband and I have flown together over 1000hrs in the last 5
years. The copilot typically handles avionic setup, communications,
serves as safety pilot and tries his/her best not to touch the control.
We do get in each other nerves sometimes when trying to be too
helpful. We read John & Martha King's article on flying together few
months ago and had tried their 'captain' system but found that it was a
bit too formal and rigid. The article did help us to try to express
the copilot's observations more matter-of-factly. We also try to wait
until the plane had stopped to go over the flight with the PIC starting
first. These techniques must have helped because we are still married
and still fly together ;-)

Flying together has many benefits but having another pilot to consult
with not always makes one fly safer. In one instance, I was somewhat
leery about landing at a strange airport with a short runway and tall
trees at both ends. Rick told me that we had landed at similar
airports many times before so there was no reason to pick another
airport 10 miles away from our destination. When we got there, it was
extremely gusty with strong crosswind and the trees seemed much taller
than airnav report. My attempt at short-field landing failed. I had to
do a 'Hail Mary' go around barely clearing the tree tops. In looking
back, it was really stupid of us trying to land inside a tiny
tree-lined bowl that day when there were acres and acres of flat
farmland and many airports with huge runways and nary a tree all
nearby. In another instance, Rick was flying, and I was the
time-keeper and gauge watcher. I told Rick several times that the fuel
gauges were low and we should land for refueling. He was concentrating
on navigating through several Charlie airspaces and just mumbled "Ok,
ok" then said "I will land once we are out of the busy areas".
Seeing that he was tired and somewhat irritated, I stopped nagging and
nervously looking for nearby airports! I had the tank topped off
when we landed eventually and was horrified to learn that we had only 5
gallons of fuel left. This 45-minute of fuel put us over the 30-minute
VFR requirement but scared the heck out of us. After these incidents,
we agree that the more conservative pilot is the one with the
overriding veto. By the way, I am not always the conservative pilot
;-)

Hai Longworth

[BG]

You are a very lucky man, allen.

[Ron Natalie]

Margy and I pretty much adopt the John & Martha approach.
The person in the left seat is PIC and sets the rules.
The person in the right is free to make gentle suggestions.
Generally, Margy lets me play with the radios to keep out
of her hair.

In marginal VFR, whoever is left seat flies on instruments
while the right seat pilot scans for traffic. The right
seat and anybody in the back is on traffic lookout in
general. (The kids were quite bored with this job as we
usually spotted things before them until the time Margy's
son was flying with her to Oshkosh and entered the Ripon
transition).

We have the "run the tank dry drill down" Margy hits the
boost pump switch while I turn the fuel selector.

Of course there was the time I was sitting there all fat,
dumb, and happy in the right seat and we were coming in
to land and Margy who had been holding a bottle of water
up until that point decides to throw it in the back seat.
Except my seat is slightly farther back than hers and
suddenly I'm smacked in the head with a half-full water
bottle.

We won't go into the CRM required during 6 hour legs in
Australia.

[Longworth[_1_]]

On Dec 21, 7:41 am, Ron Natalie > wrote:
> We won't go into the CRM required during 6 hour legs in
> Australia.

Was this CRM training a part of the Australia flying tour? We would
not mind taking a CRM training class at all. At one time, Rick thought
that we should have a more formal checklist procedure with the copilot
called out each step and the PIC replied 'checked'. We went through it
once. I did not like it a bit because it took too long to read every
item outloud. So we went back to our usual practice with the PIC went
through the checklist. The copilot observed silently and spoke up only
when it was absolutely necessary.

I don't recall reading a long report about your Australia trip. Did
I miss it? If I am not mistaken, all flying tours in Australia were
discontinued post 9/11 due to red tape hassles. I had checked into the
NewZealand and Africa self-flying trips and they all sounded quite
interesting. I had tried to convince Rick to take one of these trip
next year for our wedding anniversary but he was not ready for such a
big trip. We may just take few weeks off flying coast-to-coast camping
in little airports etc.. next spring. Alaska may be next on the plan
before NewZealand or Africa.

Hai Longworth

[john smith]

I don't think he is referring to the flying of the plane type of CRM,
Hai. :-))
Note that he mentioned six hour flights.

Longworth wrote:

>On Dec 21, 7:41 am, Ron Natalie > wrote:
>
>
>>We won't go into the CRM required during 6 hour legs in
>>Australia.
>>
>>
>
> Was this CRM training a part of the Australia flying tour? We would
>not mind taking a CRM training class at all. At one time, Rick thought
>that we should have a more formal checklist procedure with the copilot
>called out each step and the PIC replied 'checked'. We went through it
>once. I did not like it a bit because it took too long to read every
>item outloud. So we went back to our usual practice with the PIC went
>through the checklist. The copilot observed silently and spoke up only
>when it was absolutely necessary.
>
> I don't recall reading a long report about your Australia trip. Did
>I miss it? If I am not mistaken, all flying tours in Australia were
>discontinued post 9/11 due to red tape hassles. I had checked into the
>NewZealand and Africa self-flying trips and they all sounded quite
>interesting. I had tried to convince Rick to take one of these trip
>next year for our wedding anniversary but he was not ready for such a
>big trip. We may just take few weeks off flying coast-to-coast camping
>in little airports etc.. next spring. Alaska may be next on the plan
>before NewZealand or Africa.
>
> Hai Longworth
>
>
>

[Longworth[_1_]]

On Dec 21, 2:07 pm, john smith > wrote:
> I don't think he is referring to the flying of the plane type of CRM,
> Hai. :-))
> Note that he mentioned six hour flights.

What is 6hrs of flying together in light of years of marriage ? ;-)

Hai Longworth

[John T]

Longworth wrote:
>> I don't think he is referring to the flying of the plane type of CRM,
>> Hai. :-))
>> Note that he mentioned six hour flights.
>
> What is 6hrs of flying together in light of years of marriage ? ;-)

Think biologically, not emotionally or mechanically. With 6-hour legs, one
needs to manage more in the cockpit than just the airplane.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/TknoFlyer
____________________

[Blanche]

Didn't AOPA have an article about this in the past 6 months or so?
Written by the Kings, mostly by him, explaining what foolish things
they (he) did in the past and how they now approach the issue.

[Peter Dohm]

> Didn't AOPA have an article about this in the past 6 months or so?
> Written by the Kings, mostly by him, explaining what foolish things
> they (he) did in the past and how they now approach the issue.
>
Yes, in the September 2006 issue.

Peter

[Blanche]

John Ousterhout > wrote:
>Our biggest problem is personal preference.
>
> You like a Low Wing and I like a High Wing.
> You say it's manly and call me a sissy.
> Low Wing, High Wing, Manly, Sissy.
> Let's call the whole flight off.
>
> You like a Piper and I like a Cessna.
> You like an Archer and I like a Skyhawk.
> Piper, Cessna, Archer, Skyhawk.
> Let's call the whole flight off.
>
>My apologies to George and Ira Gershwin.
>
>- John Ousterhout -

But Oh --- if we call the whole flight off, then we'll stay home
And Oh --- if we must stay home, then that would break my heart.

(Don't worry about apologizing to George, he wrote the music. Ira
was the lyricist)

[Ron Natalie]

john smith wrote:
> I don't think he is referring to the flying of the plane type of CRM,
> Hai. :-))
> Note that he mentioned six hour flights.
>
Precisely...it went something like this. Margy who was in the
right seat said something like:

M: You're airplane, you're going to laugh at me, but I have to
use one of those zip-loc bags.
R: Nope, cause after you're done you're going to empty this
water bottle out the window so I can use it.

The company that I was flying with decided after the last round of
regulation changes to get out of the business. However, there was
a new company at Oshkosh selling these tours. They state you do
have to plan farther in advance as it takes longer to push your
paperwork through than it used to.

[Ron Natalie]

Blanche wrote:
> Didn't AOPA have an article about this in the past 6 months or so?
> Written by the Kings, mostly by him, explaining what foolish things
> they (he) did in the past and how they now approach the issue.
>
I attended a lecture by the Kings, where Martha had to go to the
bathroom and there was a sandstorm below and John refused. He
told her to use the sick sack. She handed it to him afterwards
and said "by the way, it leaks." John then tried to push it out
the Cherokee "clear prop" window. He says, at times like that
words fail you. The word he didn't use was Urine.

[Peter Dohm]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
. ..
> Blanche wrote:
> > Didn't AOPA have an article about this in the past 6 months or so?
> > Written by the Kings, mostly by him, explaining what foolish things
> > they (he) did in the past and how they now approach the issue.
> >
> I attended a lecture by the Kings, where Martha had to go to the
> bathroom and there was a sandstorm below and John refused. He
> told her to use the sick sack. She handed it to him afterwards
> and said "by the way, it leaks." John then tried to push it out
> the Cherokee "clear prop" window. He says, at times like that
> words fail you. The word he didn't use was Urine.

Sandstorm, eh. John made the correct decision! LOL

Peter