Winpilot for contest use?

[Frank[_1_]]

Hi,

After happily flying with my SN-10 for the last 5 or 6 years, I find
myself with a CAI 302/PDA system in my new glider. In preparation for
the upcoming racing season, I have been investigating PDA Nav software,
including GNII, SoarPilot, XCSoar, and just lately, WinPilot. I have
downloaded the WinPilot PC sim program & manual and am impressed so far
with what I see.

Anyone have positive or negative opinions regarding WinPilot for
serious racing use? Are the extra features of WinPilot Pro worth the
extra dollars?

TIA,

Frank

[Tim Taylor]

Frank wrote:
> Hi,
>
> After happily flying with my SN-10 for the last 5 or 6 years, I find
> myself with a CAI 302/PDA system in my new glider. In preparation for
> the upcoming racing season, I have been investigating PDA Nav software,
> including GNII, SoarPilot, XCSoar, and just lately, WinPilot. I have
> downloaded the WinPilot PC sim program & manual and am impressed so far
> with what I see.
>
> Anyone have positive or negative opinions regarding WinPilot for
> serious racing use? Are the extra features of WinPilot Pro worth the
> extra dollars?
>
> TIA,
>
> Frank

Frank,

If you are using the CAI 302 and a GPS there is no reason not to go
with the Pro version. In general I have flown with WinPilot Pro for
the last two years. The more I use it the more I like it. The Pro
version is much better because of the interface with the flight
computer. During contests I find the thermal average and total average
thermal for the day to be very useful. Most of the wind information is
only available in the Pro version. I don't want to get into the SN10
vs. PDA war, but I think WinPilot gives as good or better information
and flexibility in flight. An interesting point last season at the 15M
nationals was the fact that the SN10 could not handle the number of
turnpoints assigned on some days. As with any system it is more
important to be very comfortable with the system under the pressures of
contest flying.

I like the ability to change what I see on the screen of WinPilot very
quickly. Depending on the task and conditions I often put different
information on the screen during the flight. I wish they would add
several main screens that could be toggled between so I could define
several different sets of information.

Talking with others helps to see what tricks they use. Most pilots do
not use the terrain function 99% of the time. For extra visibility
many pilots turn the back light on during the entire flight. What you
put on your screen is the personalizing part that is nice about
WinPilot. The hard part is deciding what to put on and what to leave
off.

Tim

[Eric Greenwell]

Tim Taylor wrote:

> I like the ability to change what I see on the screen of WinPilot very
> quickly. Depending on the task and conditions I often put different
> information on the screen during the flight. I wish they would add
> several main screens that could be toggled between so I could define
> several different sets of information.

SeeYou Mobile has a second map screen you can toggle to, plus two
text/graphics screens with useful information. The two map screens can
be set up independently. Mobile also has profiles, so you can save
different setups for different purposes (contests, records, OLC, etc)
and different sites.

Mobile can also be downloaded for evaluation and used in flight (it's
not just a simulator), but with a "nag" screen until you register. The
last time I checked, it's licensing was much less restrictive than Winpilot.

Add it to the list to be checked out!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Frank[_1_]]

Eric,

I'll do that

Frank

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> > I like the ability to change what I see on the screen of WinPilot very
> > quickly. Depending on the task and conditions I often put different
> > information on the screen during the flight. I wish they would add
> > several main screens that could be toggled between so I could define
> > several different sets of information.
>
> SeeYou Mobile has a second map screen you can toggle to, plus two
> text/graphics screens with useful information. The two map screens can
> be set up independently. Mobile also has profiles, so you can save
> different setups for different purposes (contests, records, OLC, etc)
> and different sites.
>
> Mobile can also be downloaded for evaluation and used in flight (it's
> not just a simulator), but with a "nag" screen until you register. The
> last time I checked, it's licensing was much less restrictive than Winpilot.
>
> Add it to the list to be checked out!
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Frank[_1_]]

Tim,

Thanks for the excellent description. I agree that its what you can
effectively use under pressure that counts. It doesn't help to have
hundreds of features if you can't find/use them quickly, or if the time
required to access them actually slows you down rather than speeding
you up! ;-).

Frank

Tim Taylor wrote:
> Frank wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > After happily flying with my SN-10 for the last 5 or 6 years, I find
> > myself with a CAI 302/PDA system in my new glider. In preparation for
> > the upcoming racing season, I have been investigating PDA Nav software,
> > including GNII, SoarPilot, XCSoar, and just lately, WinPilot. I have
> > downloaded the WinPilot PC sim program & manual and am impressed so far
> > with what I see.
> >
> > Anyone have positive or negative opinions regarding WinPilot for
> > serious racing use? Are the extra features of WinPilot Pro worth the
> > extra dollars?
> >
> > TIA,
> >
> > Frank
>
> Frank,
>
> If you are using the CAI 302 and a GPS there is no reason not to go
> with the Pro version. In general I have flown with WinPilot Pro for
> the last two years. The more I use it the more I like it. The Pro
> version is much better because of the interface with the flight
> computer. During contests I find the thermal average and total average
> thermal for the day to be very useful. Most of the wind information is
> only available in the Pro version. I don't want to get into the SN10
> vs. PDA war, but I think WinPilot gives as good or better information
> and flexibility in flight. An interesting point last season at the 15M
> nationals was the fact that the SN10 could not handle the number of
> turnpoints assigned on some days. As with any system it is more
> important to be very comfortable with the system under the pressures of
> contest flying.
>
> I like the ability to change what I see on the screen of WinPilot very
> quickly. Depending on the task and conditions I often put different
> information on the screen during the flight. I wish they would add
> several main screens that could be toggled between so I could define
> several different sets of information.
>
> Talking with others helps to see what tricks they use. Most pilots do
> not use the terrain function 99% of the time. For extra visibility
> many pilots turn the back light on during the entire flight. What you
> put on your screen is the personalizing part that is nice about
> WinPilot. The hard part is deciding what to put on and what to leave
> off.
>
> Tim

[Richard[_1_]]

WinPilot has been the innovator in this type of software for the last
10 years. Many compteitors have copied most of the functions of
WinPilot but not all the functionality and ease of use. I admit you
need a license to run the program with a GPS, I believe that those that
uses the programs should pay for them. The simulator runs on the PDA
without the license and WinPilot 3D for your desktop runs free for 30
days. WinPilot can be set to accomodate all of the different contest
tasks, in addition to the FAI task, and OLC tasks.

The cost of the program is less that SeeYou and offers more functions,
including profiles, climb maximizer, terrain maps and airport
databases for the world, and a thermal database function.

WinPilot now has a 3D evaluation program that runs on your desktop
connected to the internet. It downloads the satellite terrain maps,
airspace and airport databases automatically when you zoom into a
particular area of the world. The resolution is 4 times that of the
competitors . It is an interface similar to google earth. Flights can
be viewed on realistic terrain. A declared task can also be flown on
the course line to see the terrain and area you will be flying.

I am the US dealer for WinPilot and provide phone support. Please see
my website to purchase WinPilot, PDA mounts and all items to connect to
your GPS, flight computer and speed to fly vario.

Please call if you have questions or just want to talk about the
systems.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> > I like the ability to change what I see on the screen of WinPilot very
> > quickly. Depending on the task and conditions I often put different
> > information on the screen during the flight. I wish they would add
> > several main screens that could be toggled between so I could define
> > several different sets of information.
>
> SeeYou Mobile has a second map screen you can toggle to, plus two
> text/graphics screens with useful information. The two map screens can
> be set up independently. Mobile also has profiles, so you can save
> different setups for different purposes (contests, records, OLC, etc)
> and different sites.
>
> Mobile can also be downloaded for evaluation and used in flight (it's
> not just a simulator), but with a "nag" screen until you register. The
> last time I checked, it's licensing was much less restrictive than Winpilot.
>
> Add it to the list to be checked out!
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[[email protected]]

Hello Frank,

I installed a PDA when they first became available. I fly with the ILEC
SN-10. I found the PDA to be very distracting.

I wrote down what I "need" to know at any time during a contest/record
flight and find the SN-10 provides almost everything I need. There are
some situations when other information is needed and this is on a
sectional chart, which I carry. I have never needed to look at a
sectional chart.

There are some situations where a PDA can be very valuable such as
flying in the French Alps. There are two kinds of information -
"neccessary" and "interesting." Interesting information detracts from
my perforamce as my attention is directed inside the cockpit.

Tom Knauff



Frank wrote:
> Hi,
>
> After happily flying with my SN-10 for the last 5 or 6 years, I find
> myself with a CAI 302/PDA system in my new glider. In preparation for
> the upcoming racing season, I have been investigating PDA Nav software,
> including GNII, SoarPilot, XCSoar, and just lately, WinPilot. I have
> downloaded the WinPilot PC sim program & manual and am impressed so far
> with what I see.
>
> Anyone have positive or negative opinions regarding WinPilot for
> serious racing use? Are the extra features of WinPilot Pro worth the
> extra dollars?
>
> TIA,
>
> Frank

[Eric Greenwell]

Richard wrote:
> WinPilot has been the innovator in this type of software for the last
> 10 years. Many compteitors have copied most of the functions of
> WinPilot but not all the functionality and ease of use.

And now pilots benefit from the competition amongst the suppliers of
these maturing programs, as one competitor offers features not available
in the other products, followed by the others upping the ante once
again. It is a good time to be looking for flight software!

> I admit you
> need a license to run the program with a GPS, I believe that those that
> uses the programs should pay for them.

I'm sure Team CU is in agreement here! The purpose is to allow pilots to
try the program in actual flight conditions, after gaining some
experience with it in simulator mode.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Richard[_1_]]

Eric,

It is my opinion that the simulator portion of the programs are the
place to learn the software and those that get free software to try in
the cockpit may not invest the time to learn on the simulator. A trial
with this in mind is almost useless and possibly dangerous. It is a
marketing technique that sometimes works.

In addition you need to purchase the PDA, cable kits, cradles etc to
get the software to work and get a reasonable trial.

As always Eric you will get the last word.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Richard wrote:
> > WinPilot has been the innovator in this type of software for the last
> > 10 years. Many compteitors have copied most of the functions of
> > WinPilot but not all the functionality and ease of use.
>
> And now pilots benefit from the competition amongst the suppliers of
> these maturing programs, as one competitor offers features not available
> in the other products, followed by the others upping the ante once
> again. It is a good time to be looking for flight software!
>
> > I admit you
> > need a license to run the program with a GPS, I believe that those that
> > uses the programs should pay for them.
>
> I'm sure Team CU is in agreement here! The purpose is to allow pilots to
> try the program in actual flight conditions, after gaining some
> experience with it in simulator mode.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[HL Falbaum]

Hi Tom:

What info do you consider "necessary" ?
I know what I think I need, but I'd be interested in your view.

--
Hartley Falbaum

> wrote in message
ps.com...
> Hello Frank,
>
> I installed a PDA when they first became available. I fly with the ILEC
> SN-10. I found the PDA to be very distracting.
>
> I wrote down what I "need" to know at any time during a contest/record
> flight and find the SN-10 provides almost everything I need. There are
> some situations when other information is needed and this is on a
> sectional chart, which I carry. I have never needed to look at a
> sectional chart.
>
> There are some situations where a PDA can be very valuable such as
> flying in the French Alps. There are two kinds of information -
> "neccessary" and "interesting." Interesting information detracts from
> my perforamce as my attention is directed inside the cockpit.
>
> Tom Knauff
>
>
>
> Frank wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> After happily flying with my SN-10 for the last 5 or 6 years, I find
>> myself with a CAI 302/PDA system in my new glider. In preparation for
>> the upcoming racing season, I have been investigating PDA Nav software,
>> including GNII, SoarPilot, XCSoar, and just lately, WinPilot. I have
>> downloaded the WinPilot PC sim program & manual and am impressed so far
>> with what I see.
>>
>> Anyone have positive or negative opinions regarding WinPilot for
>> serious racing use? Are the extra features of WinPilot Pro worth the
>> extra dollars?
>>
>> TIA,
>>
>> Frank
>

[Andy[_1_]]

wrote:

> I installed a PDA when they first became available. I fly with the ILEC
> SN-10. I found the PDA to be very distracting.


The alternative viewpoint is that if you can get everything you need
off a PDA then the SN10 may be distracting.

I left room in my panel for an SN10 and even allowed for its non
standard dimensions. I later bought a used one but willingly sold it
back to the seller when she changed her mind.

I'm not knocking the SN10 but SN10+PDA = DISTRACTING does not equate to
PDA=DISTRACTING.

Whether a PDA is useful or distracting is a function of the software,
not the PDA itself. There are several software options, some better
than others, to chose from.


Andy

[[email protected]]

Hello, HL,

I wish I had kept the list, but there is specific information one needs
for various parts of a flight: before start, after start, while on
course, nearing/at a turnpoint, final glide. Add to that the what-if
solutions necessary on many flights, which the ILEC and most software
prgrams do well.

As for Andy's comment about PDAs not being more of a distraction than
any other device; the PDA / software combinations I have tried (one
PDA, 2 software packages) the glare problem on the PDA I used and the
need for frequent tapping on the screen I found to be far more annoying
and disracting than the three SN-10 pages normally used during a
typical flight.

The SN-10 fits into a standard 3 1/8" hole, but the case is slightly
larger behind the panel, so very slighty more room needs to be allowed
for adjacent instruments.

Tom Knauff


HL Falbaum wrote:
> Hi Tom:
>
> What info do you consider "necessary" ?
> I know what I think I need, but I'd be interested in your view.
>
> --
> Hartley Falbaum
>
> > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > Hello Frank,
> >
> > I installed a PDA when they first became available. I fly with the ILEC
> > SN-10. I found the PDA to be very distracting.
> >
> > I wrote down what I "need" to know at any time during a contest/record
> > flight and find the SN-10 provides almost everything I need. There are
> > some situations when other information is needed and this is on a
> > sectional chart, which I carry. I have never needed to look at a
> > sectional chart.
> >
> > There are some situations where a PDA can be very valuable such as
> > flying in the French Alps. There are two kinds of information -
> > "neccessary" and "interesting." Interesting information detracts from
> > my perforamce as my attention is directed inside the cockpit.
> >
> > Tom Knauff
> >
> >
> >
> > Frank wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> After happily flying with my SN-10 for the last 5 or 6 years, I find
> >> myself with a CAI 302/PDA system in my new glider. In preparation for
> >> the upcoming racing season, I have been investigating PDA Nav software,
> >> including GNII, SoarPilot, XCSoar, and just lately, WinPilot. I have
> >> downloaded the WinPilot PC sim program & manual and am impressed so far
> >> with what I see.
> >>
> >> Anyone have positive or negative opinions regarding WinPilot for
> >> serious racing use? Are the extra features of WinPilot Pro worth the
> >> extra dollars?
> >>
> >> TIA,
> >>
> >> Frank
> >

[kirk.stant]

Tim Taylor wrote:
An interesting point last season at the 15M
> nationals was the fact that the SN10 could not handle the number of
> turnpoints assigned on some days.

Tim, would you explain this for me? The current rules limit tasks to
11 legs - which is exactly what the SN10 task page allows.

Obviously, a PST could have more legs, but only 11 should be scored, if
I understand the rules correctly.

By the way, my racing and XC solution is both an SN10 and a PDA running
SeeYou Mobile. I use the SN10 as the primary nav/task computer. My
PDA is setup to show only the task, major map features (for
orientation), and airports (in or out of glide range), plus some data
not available on the SN10 such as agl altitude. As such, it
complements the SN10 without competing with it (basically it is a
digital sectional).

The trick, obviously, is to only look at the magic when you need
information, not just to look at the nice numbers and pretty pictures!

Each is powered by a separate battery and supplied by a separate GPS
for redundancy if either one looses all it's blue smoke - so I can
continue to race after a hardware/software failure.

Kirk
66

[Richard[_1_]]

Kirk,

I believe the issues was that several days during the 15m 2006 USA
Nationals an AAT task was called that had more than 5 or 6 turnpoints
and the SN-10 in the AAT mode would not allow that many points.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

kirk.stant wrote:
> Tim Taylor wrote:
> An interesting point last season at the 15M
> > nationals was the fact that the SN10 could not handle the number of
> > turnpoints assigned on some days.
>
> Tim, would you explain this for me? The current rules limit tasks to
> 11 legs - which is exactly what the SN10 task page allows.
>
> Obviously, a PST could have more legs, but only 11 should be scored, if
> I understand the rules correctly.
>
> By the way, my racing and XC solution is both an SN10 and a PDA running
> SeeYou Mobile. I use the SN10 as the primary nav/task computer. My
> PDA is setup to show only the task, major map features (for
> orientation), and airports (in or out of glide range), plus some data
> not available on the SN10 such as agl altitude. As such, it
> complements the SN10 without competing with it (basically it is a
> digital sectional).
>
> The trick, obviously, is to only look at the magic when you need
> information, not just to look at the nice numbers and pretty pictures!
>
> Each is powered by a separate battery and supplied by a separate GPS
> for redundancy if either one looses all it's blue smoke - so I can
> continue to race after a hardware/software failure.
>
> Kirk
> 66

[kirk.stant]

> Kirk,
>
> I believe the issues was that several days during the 15m 2006 USA
> Nationals an AAT task was called that had more than 5 or 6 turnpoints
> and the SN-10 in the AAT mode would not allow that many points.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Richard,

Ok, I can see that. Hard to imagine weather so unpredictable that the
CD couldn't make a simpler task! But I've CD'd local contests and
understand the pressure....

That makes me even more satisfied with my setup, since I can use the
PDA for navigation on the rare (hopefully!) tasks the SN10 is currently
unable to handle.

Time for a suggestion to Dave Nadler for a new SN10 software upgrade!

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

Hi Frank,

I'm replying without reading any of the responses I see, so I'm prolly
not giving you much new here.

When I got into contest flying a few years ago I spent a lot of time
evaluating PDA software. I bought licenses to WinPilot Pro and SeeYou
Mobile and I like them both. I currently use WinPilot Pro but I keep my
SeeYou Mobile version up to date and use it occasionally.

If you have a 302 and choose to use WinPilot, you should absolutely
spend the few extra bucks to get the Pro version, which uses the
airspeed and vario data from the 302.

The only real gripe I have about WinPilot is that it occasionally
crashes in flight. (I've learned to expect this on MATs when I'm moving
the mobile turnpoint.) Another thing I'd like them to fix is that if I
have to restart the software in flight, I want the current task
information back (current task leg, task speed, leg speed, etc). These
are annoying "features" but I still like the software.

~ted/2NO

[Frank[_1_]]

Tuno,

Crashing in flight is certainly a 'real gripe'! The last thing you
need from serious competition software is an in-flight crash!

Has the software developer responded at all to this situation?

Frank


wrote:
>
> The only real gripe I have about WinPilot is that it occasionally
> crashes in flight. (I've learned to expect this on MATs when I'm moving

[[email protected]]

Something I've failed to do so far is bug Richard about it. But I'll
take the occasion to write up something and send it to him.

Keep in mind that the crashing problem might be related to my
particular PDA (an HP 4700). It's the only one with VGA resolution (at
least it was six months ago) and the problem may be in how WinPilot
interfaces with that video driver. I have not heard other WinPilot
users having this problem, and I like its overall performance enough to
use it despite the problems.

BUT you should also be aware that I use two logger/nav systems; an
LX-7007 and the 302/PDA+WinPilot combo, so if one crashes I have a
backup.

For a complete vario/logger/nav package, I think the 302/PDA/WinPilot
combination is the best bang for the buck. GW likes it enough that he
flies with two complete setups and nothing else; he uses the moving map
on one and (I believe) the thermal assistant on the other.

And of course I meant to say "TAT" not "MAT" for mobile turnpoints...

~ted/2NO