Head Scratcher

[john smith]

How do a 61-year old retired airline pilot and a flight instructor with
40 years of experience crash and die?

This happened two days ago in Central Ohio. The pilot had just purchased
the 1966 Mooney M20F and was getting on a check out flight with the
instructor. Witnesses report the aircraft came straight down.

The owner shown in the FAA database is an 84 year old who had sold the
aircraft only a couple days prior to the accident.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 9596M Make/Model: MO20 Description: M20, M20A/B/C/D/E/F/G/J/L/R/S, M20K/M (T
Date: 12/27/2006 Time: 1955

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOUNT GILEAD State: OH Country: US

DESCRIPTION
ACFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE TWO PERSONS ON BOARD WERE
FATALLY INJURED, 8 MILES FROM MOUNT GILEAD AIRPORT, MOUNT GILEAD, OH

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
# Crew: 2 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: MNN 271953Z AUTO 26008KT 10SM FEW100 04/M03 A3007

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER

Departed: Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: Flt Plan: Wx Briefing:
Last Radio Cont:
Last Clearance:

FAA FSDO: COLUMBUS, OH (GL07) Entry date: 12/28/2006




N9596M is Assigned

Aircraft Description

*Serial Number* 670173 *Type Registration* Individual
*Manufacturer Name*
MOONEY
*Certificate Issue Date*
07/27/2004
*Model*
M20F
*Status*
Valid
*Type Aircraft*
Fixed Wing Single-Engine
*Type Engine*
Reciprocating
*Pending Number Change*
None
*Dealer*
No
*Date Change Authorized*
None
*Mode S Code*
53254514
*MFR Year*
1966
*Fractional Owner*
NO

[Dan Luke]

"john smith" wrote:

> How do a 61-year old retired airline pilot and a flight instructor with 40
> years of experience crash and die?

This is one of those accidents where it is difficult even to guess a likely
cause. Pilot had a heart attack while practicing stalls and froze on the
controls? You have to use a lot of imagination to come up with a scenario
that would kill these two aviators on a checkout flight.

Weird.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Montblack]

("john smith" wrote)
> This happened two days ago in Central Ohio. The pilot had just purchased
> the 1966 Mooney M20F and was getting on a check out flight with the
> instructor. Witnesses report the aircraft came straight down.


I read a link (in rec.aviation) a while back about a person investigating
the possibility that CO poisoning might be a culprit in more crashes than
people realize. Sounds like an interesting theory, except for my thought
that there were toxicology tests for that. Maybe his theory is they're not
catching it - forensically. Memory fails me on the details of the research
in the link.

I know some past exhaust issues have involved higher pressure vs. lower
pressure areas - Piper's tail cone 'low pressure zone' was one problem spot
for CO gas to find its way into the cabin, IIRC.

I know many planes are leaky ...but if you do have a somewhat tight cockpit,
would a (small) fresh air feed, slightly pressurizing the cabin (perhaps
with a small computer type fan), be good insurance against CO gas intrusion?


Montblack

[Matt Whiting]

john smith wrote:

> How do a 61-year old retired airline pilot and a flight instructor with
> 40 years of experience crash and die?

The same way as any other pilots.


> This happened two days ago in Central Ohio. The pilot had just purchased
> the 1966 Mooney M20F and was getting on a check out flight with the
> instructor. Witnesses report the aircraft came straight down.

You can't trust most aircraft accident witnesses.

It could have been due to any of several reasons. Hopefully, the NTSB
will figure it out.


Matt

[Kyle Boatright]

Locally, we had two CFI's pull the wings and tail (IIRC) off of a Piper when
they were on a checkout flight.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040924X01489&key=1

I'm not saying this is what happened in the Mooney - the possibilities are
endless, but the point is that having two highly qualified pilots aboard
doesn't prevent pilot error or any other type of accident.

KB


"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> How do a 61-year old retired airline pilot and a flight instructor with 40
> years of experience crash and die?
>
> This happened two days ago in Central Ohio. The pilot had just purchased
> the 1966 Mooney M20F and was getting on a check out flight with the
> instructor. Witnesses report the aircraft came straight down.
>
> The owner shown in the FAA database is an 84 year old who had sold the
> aircraft only a couple days prior to the accident.
>
> IDENTIFICATION
> Regis#: 9596M Make/Model: MO20 Description: M20,
> M20A/B/C/D/E/F/G/J/L/R/S, M20K/M (T
> Date: 12/27/2006 Time: 1955
>
> Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
> Damage: Substantial
>
> LOCATION
> City: MOUNT GILEAD State: OH Country: US
>
> DESCRIPTION
> ACFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE TWO PERSONS ON BOARD WERE
> FATALLY INJURED, 8 MILES FROM MOUNT GILEAD AIRPORT, MOUNT GILEAD, OH
>
> INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
> # Crew: 2 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0
> Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: #
> Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
> WEATHER: MNN 271953Z AUTO 26008KT 10SM FEW100 04/M03 A3007
>
> OTHER DATA
> Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER
>
> Departed: Dep Date: Dep. Time:
> Destination: Flt Plan: Wx Briefing:
> Last Radio Cont: Last Clearance:
> FAA FSDO: COLUMBUS, OH (GL07) Entry date: 12/28/2006
>
>
>
> N9596M is Assigned
>
> Aircraft Description
>
> *Serial Number* 670173 *Type Registration* Individual
> *Manufacturer Name*
> MOONEY
> *Certificate Issue Date*
> 07/27/2004
> *Model*
> M20F
> *Status*
> Valid
> *Type Aircraft*
> Fixed Wing Single-Engine
> *Type Engine*
> Reciprocating
> *Pending Number Change*
> None
> *Dealer*
> No
> *Date Change Authorized*
> None
> *Mode S Code*
> 53254514
> *MFR Year*
> 1966
> *Fractional Owner*
> NO
>

[Jose[_1_]]

> How do a 61-year old retired airline pilot and a flight instructor with 40 years of experience crash and die?

The most probable answer is he made a mistake. And if not the case for
this accident, it is probably the case for many other head scratchers.
Consider how many car drivers crash and die, and how much more
experienced they are driving than any of us are experienced flying.

People make mistakes, and aircraft themselves can fail.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Chris S]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> How do a 61-year old retired airline pilot and a flight
> instructor with 40 years of experience crash and die?
>

Sounds a little like the pilot and CFI who flew into a building in NY a few
months ago. Could be anything, mechanical, human error, both. People make
mistakes regardless of experience. Most times they get away with their
mistakes. Eventually, your luck runs out.

[john smith]

Montblack wrote:

>("john smith" wrote)
>
>
>>This happened two days ago in Central Ohio. The pilot had just purchased
>>the 1966 Mooney M20F and was getting on a check out flight with the
>>instructor. Witnesses report the aircraft came straight down.
>>
>>
>
>I read a link (in rec.aviation) a while back about a person investigating
>the possibility that CO poisoning might be a culprit in more crashes than
>people realize. Sounds like an interesting theory, except for my thought
>that there were toxicology tests for that. Maybe his theory is they're not
>catching it - forensically. Memory fails me on the details of the research
>in the link.
>
>I know some past exhaust issues have involved higher pressure vs. lower
>pressure areas - Piper's tail cone 'low pressure zone' was one problem spot
>for CO gas to find its way into the cabin, IIRC.
>
>I know many planes are leaky ...but if you do have a somewhat tight cockpit,
>would a (small) fresh air feed, slightly pressurizing the cabin (perhaps
>with a small computer type fan), be good insurance against CO gas intrusion?
>
You mean like this, for example...

CINCINNATI COUPLE
Cockpit fumes knock out pair while plane taxiing
Saturday, December 30, 2006
ASSOCIATED PRESS

A small plane drove off a taxiway at a northeastern Indiana airport
before takeoff after the pilot and passenger, both of Cincinnati,
apparently were overcome by fumes.

Others at the Delaware County Airport in Muncie, Ind., pulled Thomas and
Marilyn Kroll from the plane Wednesday night. They were unconscious and
taken to a hospital.

Gene Marlin, the pilot of a nearby plane, drove his plane up to the
Krolls’ aircraft.

"Whenever I got there, the line-boy had the door open but the gentleman
and the lady were still in the airplane and the airplane was running,"
Marlin told Indianapolis television station WTHR. "I just shut the
engine off and pulled the people from the airplane out."

Marlin said neither person regained consciousness before emergency crews
took them.

"The way the glass on the inside of the cockpit was all steamed up ...
it was all kind of glazed over, but it wasn’t ice. And the smell," he
said. "The fumes were real strong in there."

The Krolls were taken by helicopter to Wishard Memorial Hospital in
Indianapolis. Marilyn Kroll was listed in serious condition and Thomas
Kroll was in fair condition.

[Morgans[_5_]]

"Montblack" > wrote

> I know many planes are leaky ...but if you do have a somewhat tight
> cockpit, would a (small) fresh air feed, slightly pressurizing the cabin
> (perhaps with a small computer type fan), be good insurance against CO gas
> intrusion?

Somewhat tight is the key phrase. I don't think most are tight enough for a
muffin fan to be able to create positive pressure.

Add to that, fan blade type fans are very, very poor at creating pressure.
Squirrel cage blowers are used where pressure is needed. That is why house
air handlers (furnaces) have squirrel cage blowers, as do heater blowers in
cars.

Still, a fresh air blower will not help where the cause of the CO is a
cracked heat exchanger. (muff)

The other problems are fixed by sealing off the leaks, especially in low
pressure areas, but you knew that.
--
Jim in NC

[Blueskies]

The pressure inside of the fuselage at speed will always be lower than the ambient outside air pressure. A ram air
source out on the wing and away from the engine compartment can provide fresh air, but a little muffin fan will not do
it. Does everyone have a CO monitor on board?



"Morgans" > wrote in message ...
:
: "Montblack" > wrote
:
: > I know many planes are leaky ...but if you do have a somewhat tight
: > cockpit, would a (small) fresh air feed, slightly pressurizing the cabin
: > (perhaps with a small computer type fan), be good insurance against CO gas
: > intrusion?
:
: Somewhat tight is the key phrase. I don't think most are tight enough for a
: muffin fan to be able to create positive pressure.
:
: Add to that, fan blade type fans are very, very poor at creating pressure.
: Squirrel cage blowers are used where pressure is needed. That is why house
: air handlers (furnaces) have squirrel cage blowers, as do heater blowers in
: cars.
:
: Still, a fresh air blower will not help where the cause of the CO is a
: cracked heat exchanger. (muff)
:
: The other problems are fixed by sealing off the leaks, especially in low
: pressure areas, but you knew that.
: --
: Jim in NC
:
:

[Mxsmanic]

Blueskies writes:

> The pressure inside of the fuselage at speed will always be lower
> than the ambient outside air pressure.

Really? Why?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.