Holds on autopilot?

[Mxsmanic]

In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
by hand through the holds?

When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?

Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.

--
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[Ron Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
> holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
> altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
> by hand through the holds?

Holds are the perfect time for the autopilot. Usually, I do them in
HDG mode, but the GNS480 will steer the autopilot around the hold
in GPSS mode (either as a part of a charted approach, or you can
just throw a hold in at any waypoint)

>
> When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
> them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?

The examiner expects you to use the autopilot when appropriate. Of
course, they can (and will) make you hand fly any part of the test
that they need to evaluate fully.

>
> Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
> the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
> heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
> turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.
>

It's not a feature of the autopilot in my plane. It's the GPS.
The autopilot just does what the GPS tells it.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
> holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
> altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
> by hand through the holds?

Even in the very advanced G1000 aircraft the autopilot doesn't fly the
hold. However you can manually set the heading and drive it around the
hold. The GNS 480 will drive the hold and is awesome but its just a
box, not an integrated system like the G1000.
The best thing about any IFR GPS system (430,480,530,G1000) is that it
gives you the entry procedure. That's 95% of the complexity of the
hold, fingering out the entry.

> When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
> them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?

Usually when you are being tested on holding you are being tested on
two things...
1) Using a correct entry procedure (or at least staying on the safe
side) and
2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
time come out right.
Just the flying around in circles part isn't anything difficult itself.

> Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
> the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
> heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
> turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.

Usually you do use the autopilot, because the hold is usually when you
are briefing the approach. Pre-approach is the busiest time because you
need to study the approach.

In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
for the procedure turn.

-Robert

[Stan Prevost]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>

> 2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
> time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
> time come out right.

Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the holding
fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from the
hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or recommendation
from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix at
EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.

> A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
> time come out right.

A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes, and
go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed), it just
doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a hold must
be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The only guidance
is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding pattern, and staying
within the maximum distance specified on the chart, if any. Of course, on a
checkride, you ought to strive for the specified time for the inbound leg.

On a timed approach, the crossing time is meant to be fairly exact, so you
adjust as required, and not in increments of one minute.

I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one. You do have to
fly them at times, and when that time comes, you have to know how to do them
and be proficient at it. They are a standard maneuver of instrument flying.

[Robert M. Gary]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
>
> > 2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
> > time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
> > time come out right.
>
> Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the holding
> fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from the
> hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
> anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or recommendation
> from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix at
> EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.

>From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
"8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
time."

On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
about 1 minute of the specified time.

>
> > A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
> > time come out right.
>
> A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
> time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
> precise.

Right, that's how you cause the aircraft to arrive at the fix at the
ETC.

> I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
> much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one.

I never said that.

-Robert, CFII

[Mxsmanic]

Ron Natalie writes:

> Holds are the perfect time for the autopilot. Usually, I do them in
> HDG mode, but the GNS480 will steer the autopilot around the hold
> in GPSS mode (either as a part of a charted approach, or you can
> just throw a hold in at any waypoint)

How do you do it with the GNS480? Is it possible with a GNS530? I've
looked in the manual but I don't see anything that explains how to do
it.

> The examiner expects you to use the autopilot when appropriate. Of
> course, they can (and will) make you hand fly any part of the test
> that they need to evaluate fully.

Hmm, okay. Not that I'll be taking an exam any time soon, but I was
curious.

> It's not a feature of the autopilot in my plane. It's the GPS.
> The autopilot just does what the GPS tells it.

If there's a way to get a GNS430 or GNS530 to do it, I'd like to know
how.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
> Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
> formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
> remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
> for the procedure turn.

I've read that holds have become very rare since ATC adopted the
policy of spacing flights from their departure points rather than en
route. I remember when I was young hearing about holding patterns a
lot, but apparently those are largely a thing of the past.

--
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[BT]

People do care..

"Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
...
>
> A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
> time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
> precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
> longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes, and
> go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed), it
> just doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a
> hold must be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The
> only guidance is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding pattern,
> and staying within the maximum distance specified on the chart, if any.
> Of course, on a checkride, you ought to strive for the specified time for
> the inbound leg.
>

People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for "protected
airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic or
terrain in a non radar enviroment. You can ask for more from ATC. But if you
do not ask, he is expecting you to fly one minute legs (1.5 min legs).. and
not extend your pattern to 20nm on your own whim.

BT

[Stan Prevost]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Stan Prevost wrote:
>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> >
>>
>> > 2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
>> > time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
>> > time come out right.
>>
>> Huh? Did you make all that up? The only time you need to cross the
>> holding
>> fix at any particular time is when you are doing a timed approach from
>> the
>> hold and you are given a crossing time. EFC time has nothing to do with
>> anything other than lost com, and there is no requirement or
>> recommendation
>> from the FAA or anyone else I have ever heard to attempt crossing the fix
>> at
>> EFC time, nor can I imagine any need to do so.
>
>>From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
> "8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
> pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
> time."
>
> On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
> about 1 minute of the specified time.
>

That relates to timed approaches from a holding fix, which is the only time
a crossing time will be specified. No specific tolerances on the time are
given anywhere that I know of. I wouldn't disagree with your "about one
minute", although nobody I know uses tolerances that large in training.
DPEs around here don't seem to specify a time.
>>
>> > A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
>> > time come out right.
>>
>> A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
>> time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
>> precise.
>
> Right, that's how you cause the aircraft to arrive at the fix at the
> ETC.
>

So why do you say to mix up holds having integral minute leg lengths? And
why are holds 4, 3, or 2 minutes?

I don't understand ETC, I assume you mean EFC as you stated in your original
post. It has nothing to do with EFC.

From the Instrument Flying Handbook:

"EFC times require no time adjustment since the purpose for issuance of
these times is to provide for possible loss of two-way radio
communications."


>> I don't understand the point of telling people that they shouldn't worry
>> much about holds because you hardly ever have to fly one.
>
> I never said that.
>


True, you did not explicitly say that. You did say:


"In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
formal procedures."

I don't know your intent with that comment, but it appeared to me to be
implicitly deprecating the importance of holding patterns as a component of
instrument flight and the importance of being proficient in flying them.

Anyway, my experience is certainly different, and "formal" holds are not
uncommon (but not timed approaches).

[Stan Prevost]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
> People do care..
>
> "Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> A hold can be almost any time you want unless you are assigned a specific
>> time, and that time applies to the inbound leg, and is not meant to be
>> precise. A default hold is a one-minute inbound leg, but you can make it
>> longer or shorter if you want and nobody cares. Don't go to extremes,
>> and go do five minutes, but within wide limits (depends on your speed),
>> it just doesn't really matter. There is no specification anywhere that a
>> hold must be four or three or two minutes or combinations thereof. The
>> only guidance is a one-minute inbound leg for the default holding
>> pattern, and staying within the maximum distance specified on the chart,
>> if any. Of course, on a checkride, you ought to strive for the specified
>> time for the inbound leg.
>>
>
> People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
> minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for "protected
> airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic or
> terrain in a non radar enviroment. You can ask for more from ATC. But if
> you do not ask, he is expecting you to fly one minute legs (1.5 min
> legs).. and not extend your pattern to 20nm on your own whim.
>

You will notice that I cautioned against extremes and not exceeding maximum
distances. My intent was to illustrate that the leg time is nothing to
obsess over, within reasonable lengths, and that leg lengths are not limited
to integral minutes, and that EFC has nothing to do with it.

If a holding pattern might be flown at anywhere from, say, 60 knots to
possibly over 200 knots, a one minute leg will range from one to over three
miles, not even considering wind. Since it is really distance that matters,
and over three miles is acceptable (unless Cat E is excluded), that would
correspond to over three minutes for the 60 knot airplane. Variation from
one minute or less to over three minutes would be quite large in term of
pilot technique, and would border on extreme, IMO.

Nonwithstanding all that, an instrument pilot should, IMO, be proficient in
being able to adjust leg timing as required (not just mixing up integral
minute legs) to meet a crossing time for a timed approach. It is just that
when prioritizing workload during a normal hold, precise leg timing is not
at top of the list, especially for slower aircraft.

(Can a helicopter hover for a hold in VMC, or must it fly the hold pattern
with specified legs?)

[Mxsmanic]

BT writes:

> People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
> minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for "protected
> airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic or
> terrain in a non radar enviroment.

I distinctly remember, when I was little, seeing a drawing that showed
aircraft in what appeared to be a holding pattern (an oval track
around a fix), and at different levels, with each aircraft dropping
one level on each trip around the pattern. I understood that aircraft
were "stacked" this way while waiting to land. Is that no longer
done? I don't see any mention of it in any of the sources I've
consulted. Or perhaps I remembered something incorrectly? Maybe it
was never done (?). It sounds a bit risky.

--
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[BT]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> BT writes:
>
>> People do care about timeing in the holding pattern, time is set to one
>> minute on the inbound leg, (1.5 min at higher altitudes) to for
>> "protected
>> airspace", this protected airspace is to protect you from other traffic
>> or
>> terrain in a non radar enviroment.
>
> I distinctly remember, when I was little, seeing a drawing that showed
> aircraft in what appeared to be a holding pattern (an oval track
> around a fix), and at different levels, with each aircraft dropping
> one level on each trip around the pattern. I understood that aircraft
> were "stacked" this way while waiting to land. Is that no longer
> done? I don't see any mention of it in any of the sources I've
> consulted. Or perhaps I remembered something incorrectly? Maybe it
> was never done (?). It sounds a bit risky.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

It is done that way.. but what protects them laterially from adjacent or
crossing airways, other holding patterns, or terrain at low altitude in a
non radar environment.
BT

[john smith]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> How do you do it with the GNS480? Is it possible with a GNS530? I've
> looked in the manual but I don't see anything that explains how to do
> it.

Garmin did not design the GNS480, so none of the Garmin designs
incorporate that feature.

[Ron Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Ron Natalie writes:
>
>> Holds are the perfect time for the autopilot. Usually, I do them in
>> HDG mode, but the GNS480 will steer the autopilot around the hold
>> in GPSS mode (either as a part of a charted approach, or you can
>> just throw a hold in at any waypoint)
>
> How do you do it with the GNS480? Is it possible with a GNS530? I've
> looked in the manual but I don't see anything that explains how to do
> it.

If you are in an approach, it will fly the hold once automatically. If
you press SUSP in the hold, it will fly around the hold indefinitely.

Otherwise, you can press DIRECT and then HOLD and it prompts you for
the course and leg length.

I don't know what the traditional Garmin stuff is capable of.

[Mxsmanic]

john smith writes:

> Garmin did not design the GNS480, so none of the Garmin designs
> incorporate that feature.

And yet they sell it? What's the story behind that? I thought Garmin
designed all their stuff (even if they have it manufactured in
Taiwan).

--
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[HankPilot2002]

>
> In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
> Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
> formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
> remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
> for the procedure turn.
>
> -Robert

I fly regional jets in the Northeast and I get assigned "hold as
published" on a regular basis; particularly going into JFK at rush
hour, or in any low IFR weather. PVD is another popular holding fix
when going into BOS. And yes we always program a hold into the FMS and
often back it up with conventional navigation whenever possible.

[Bernie]

"I've read that holds have become very rare since ATC adopted the
policy of spacing flights from their departure points rather than en
route. "

You want to come and visit Heathrow some time - there are four holds,
and they get used.

[Mxsmanic]

Bernie writes:

> You want to come and visit Heathrow some time - there are four holds,
> and they get used.

I was thinking of the U.S.; things are different in Europe.

--
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[Ron Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> john smith writes:
>
>> Garmin did not design the GNS480, so none of the Garmin designs
>> incorporate that feature.
>
> And yet they sell it? What's the story behind that? I thought Garmin
> designed all their stuff (even if they have it manufactured in
> Taiwan).
>
Garmin bought UPSAT (formerly known as Apollo) after UPSAT
designed the 480 (which UPSAT called the CNX80) and the MX20
(which has evolved into the GMX200) and the SL-30 and SL-40
NAV/COM and COM. All of which (with the exception of the
original MX20) are still Garmin products.

[Pixel Dent]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> john smith writes:
>
> > Garmin did not design the GNS480, so none of the Garmin designs
> > incorporate that feature.
>
> And yet they sell it? What's the story behind that? I thought Garmin
> designed all their stuff (even if they have it manufactured in
> Taiwan).

Garmin bought Apollo Avionics from UPS a few years back. If I remember
correctly the 480 was originally an Apollo product.

[Barney Rubble]

Circles, what kind of standard hold is that?

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
>> holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
>> altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
>> by hand through the holds?
>
> Even in the very advanced G1000 aircraft the autopilot doesn't fly the
> hold. However you can manually set the heading and drive it around the
> hold. The GNS 480 will drive the hold and is awesome but its just a
> box, not an integrated system like the G1000.
> The best thing about any IFR GPS system (430,480,530,G1000) is that it
> gives you the entry procedure. That's 95% of the complexity of the
> hold, fingering out the entry.
>
>> When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
>> them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?
>
> Usually when you are being tested on holding you are being tested on
> two things...
> 1) Using a correct entry procedure (or at least staying on the safe
> side) and
> 2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
> time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
> time come out right.
> Just the flying around in circles part isn't anything difficult itself.
>
>> Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
>> the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
>> heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
>> turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.
>
> Usually you do use the autopilot, because the hold is usually when you
> are briefing the approach. Pre-approach is the busiest time because you
> need to study the approach.
>
> In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
> Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
> formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
> remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
> for the procedure turn.
>
> -Robert
>

[Barney Rubble]

So last week then?

"....I distinctly remember, when I was little....."

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:43:00 -0800, Robert M. Gary wrote
(in article . com>):

>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> In real life, do most pilots equipped with autopilots use them to fly
>> holds (i.e., by using the HDG function of the autopilot, and possibly
>> altitude holds or autothrottle if available), or do they fly the plane
>> by hand through the holds?
>
> Even in the very advanced G1000 aircraft the autopilot doesn't fly the
> hold. However you can manually set the heading and drive it around the
> hold. The GNS 480 will drive the hold and is awesome but its just a
> box, not an integrated system like the G1000.
> The best thing about any IFR GPS system (430,480,530,G1000) is that it
> gives you the entry procedure. That's 95% of the complexity of the
> hold, fingering out the entry.
>
>> When you are tested on your ability to fly holds, do you have to fly
>> them by hand, or can you use the autopilot as above?
>
> Usually when you are being tested on holding you are being tested on
> two things...
> 1) Using a correct entry procedure (or at least staying on the safe
> side) and

Actually, you can use any entry procedure you want as long as you stay on the
safe side. An examiner is not going to ask for a teardrop entry, for example.
The purpose of the recommended entry procedures is to give you easily
remembered means of ensuring that you stay on the safe side.

> 2) Timing the hold to arrive back at the holding fix right at the EFC
> time. A hold can be 4,3 or 2 minutes so you mix them up to make the
> time come out right.
> Just the flying around in circles part isn't anything difficult itself.
>

You time the hold so that the inbound leg is one minute (or 1.5 minutes). You
can be anywhere in the hold at EFC time. The important thing is that you do
not leave the hold before the EFC time without a clearance. If I am on the
inbound leg and the EFC time is approaching and I have not gotten a further
clearance, I will call ATC. No point in letting everybody fall asleep at the
switch.

>> Note that I'm not talking about fully automated systems that will fly
>> the entire hold pattern automatically, I'm talking about just using
>> heading and altitude controls in the autopilot to simplify the task of
>> turning and rolling out, turning and rolling out, over and over.
>
> Usually you do use the autopilot, because the hold is usually when you
> are briefing the approach. Pre-approach is the busiest time because you
> need to study the approach.
>
> In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
> Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
> formal procedures. The only time you really get to fly holds is to
> remote airports without ATC when the approach procedure requires a hold
> for the procedure turn.

Well, holds are a little more common than that. However, they are not as
common as they used to be. I miss them, in an odd sort of way. Some
departures also have holds in them for climbing to cruise altitude. IIRC
Missoula has one of these. Sometimes you also are given holding instructions
when you receive your departure clearance at a non-towered airport.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"C J Campbell" > wrote
>
> Well, holds are a little more common than that. However, they are not as
> common as they used to be. I miss them, in an odd sort of way. Some
> departures also have holds in them for climbing to cruise altitude. IIRC
> Missoula has one of these. Sometimes you also are given holding
> instructions
> when you receive your departure clearance at a non-towered airport.

C J, I know you are a "turn the other cheek" kind of guy, but please
reconsider whether you want to be on the list of people that respond to MX.
He is among the ungrateful swine, and is not worthy of your knowledge. His
continued presence is not a "good thing" and your responses only prolongs
this.

Thanks for your reconsideration;
--
Jim in NC

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> C J, I know you are a "turn the other cheek" kind of guy, but please
> reconsider whether you want to be on the list of people that respond to MX.
> He is among the ungrateful swine, and is not worthy of your knowledge. His
> continued presence is not a "good thing" and your responses only prolongs
> this.
>
> Thanks for your reconsideration;

In the post you replied to, didn't CJ respond to Robert Gary?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Bob Noel" > wrote

> In the post you replied to, didn't CJ respond to Robert Gary?

I didn't think so; I thought that was in response to MX. I could be wrong,
and if so, I apologize.
--
Jim in NC

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 05:05:14 -0800, Morgans wrote
(in article >):

>
> "Bob Noel" > wrote
>
>> In the post you replied to, didn't CJ respond to Robert Gary?
>
> I didn't think so; I thought that was in response to MX. I could be wrong,
> and if so, I apologize.
>

It was to Gary. I have nothing against Mx; I just tire of his arguments and
don't read them.

[Robert M. Gary]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> So why do you say to mix up holds having integral minute leg lengths? And
> why are holds 4, 3, or 2 minutes?

The 4,3 and 2 are the standard holds a pilot has in his bag. So if he
needs to hold for 7 minutes, he starts with a 4 and then does a 3, and
he's back at the fix, ready for the approach. A 4 minute hold is 1
minute out, a 3 minute hold is 30 seconds out, and a 2 minute hold is a
circle. These are standard training techniques for teaching holds.

> > I never said that.
> True, you did not explicitly say that. You did say:
> "In real life holding is about as common as being hit by lightening.
> Even when you do get a hold its usually just a vectored hold, not a
> formal procedures."
>
> I don't know your intent with that comment, but it appeared to me to be
> implicitly deprecating the importance of holding patterns as a component of
> instrument flight and the importance of being proficient in flying them.

Because simulator guys don't need to take checkrides, they don't need
to wait for further clearance. They're trying to reproduce real life,
in real life you almost never get assigned formal holds. I think you
take the gamers way to seriously.

-Robert, CFII

[Robert M. Gary]

C J Campbell wrote:
> Actually, you can use any entry procedure you want as long as you stay on the
> safe side. An examiner is not going to ask for a teardrop entry, for example.
> The purpose of the recommended entry procedures is to give you easily
> remembered means of ensuring that you stay on the safe side.

Try taking an ATP check ride.

V Instrument
B: Task Holding
4) Follows appropriate entry procedures for a standard, nonstandard,
published, or non-published holding pattern.

-Robert, CFII

[Robert M. Gary]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> >>From the instrument PTS III(C) "Holding Procedures"
> > "8.Uses proper wind correction procedures to maintain the desired
> > pattern and to arrive over the fix as close as possible to a specified
> > time."
> >
> > On your checkride you need to time your hold to arrive over the fix w/i
> > about 1 minute of the specified time.
> >
>
> That relates to timed approaches from a holding fix, which is the only time
> a crossing time will be specified. No specific tolerances on the time are
> given anywhere that I know of. I wouldn't disagree with your "about one
> minute", although nobody I know uses tolerances that large in training.
> DPEs around here don't seem to specify a time.

>From the PTS for ATP V Instrument
B: Holding
9 ) Arrives over the holding fix as close as possible to the
"expect further clearance" time.

-Robert, CFII

[Stan Prevost[_1_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
>>From the PTS for ATP V Instrument
> B: Holding
> 9 ) Arrives over the holding fix as close as possible to the
> "expect further clearance" time.
>

Thanks for that reference, Robert. I have not read the ATP PTS but have
never seen any other reference to using EFC in a hold. I still have no idea
why it would be so, other than just as a checkride device. It contradicts
the standard FAA references that I quoted.

Stan

[Stan Prevost[_1_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> The 4,3 and 2 are the standard holds a pilot has in his bag. So if he
> needs to hold for 7 minutes, he starts with a 4 and then does a 3, and
> he's back at the fix, ready for the approach. A 4 minute hold is 1
> minute out, a 3 minute hold is 30 seconds out, and a 2 minute hold is a
> circle. These are standard training techniques for teaching holds.
>

I don't know what you mean by standard training techniques. Maybe they are
your standards. There is no reference to such techniques, that I am aware
of, in any of the FAA materials, and I have never seen any published non-FAA
instrument training book that mentions such techniques. I would appreciate
knowing about them. Everything I have ever read just says to adjust your
last time around to cross at the specified time (not EFC time). There are
limits, of course. If you are just beginning your outbound turn (for
example), and ATC calls and says to cross the fix one minute later, you
ain't gonna make it.


>
> Because simulator guys don't need to take checkrides, they don't need
> to wait for further clearance. They're trying to reproduce real life,
> in real life you almost never get assigned formal holds. I think you
> take the gamers way to seriously.
>

I don't understand where gamers fit into this exchange, I took issue with
your statements, not a gamer's. I and other real-life pilots have disputed,
based on real-life experience, your repeated assertion that in real life you
almost never get assigned formal holds. And I dispute any positive value to
such a statement, and would assign it a negative value, for the reasons
already stated.

[Robert M. Gary]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> >
> >>From the PTS for ATP V Instrument
> > B: Holding
> > 9 ) Arrives over the holding fix as close as possible to the
> > "expect further clearance" time.
> >
>
> Thanks for that reference, Robert. I have not read the ATP PTS but have
> never seen any other reference to using EFC in a hold. I still have no idea
> why it would be so, other than just as a checkride device. It contradicts
> the standard FAA references that I quoted.

Yes, your right that it contradicts the Instrument Flying Handbook. Not
sure if there is a revision in the works for either or if the FAA is
happy for them to disagree. ;) We're still basically teaching the same
for both checkrides. IR or ATP, we pretty much teach the same
instrument stuff since a lot of the IR students plan on taking the ATP
checkride when able.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> I don't understand where gamers fit into this exchange, I took issue with
> your statements, not a gamer's.

If you've watched these groups for long you would know that Mxsmanic is
not a real pilot. He is a gamer and will not likely ever set foot in a
real plane. If you can find a good reason for gamers to play with holds
go ahead.

-Robert