Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

[Mxsmanic]

If it becomes impossible to respect your descent schedule, is it
permissible to ask ATC to give you a hold temporarily so that you can
descend in the hold pattern until you're back to your planned descent?
If so, is this a fairly common procedure, or very unusual? I'm
thinking with respect to large commercial jets in particular (or
potentially any jet, since they usually seem to be fast and slippery).

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[Sam Spade]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> If it becomes impossible to respect your descent schedule, is it
> permissible to ask ATC to give you a hold temporarily so that you can
> descend in the hold pattern until you're back to your planned descent?
> If so, is this a fairly common procedure, or very unusual? I'm
> thinking with respect to large commercial jets in particular (or
> potentially any jet, since they usually seem to be fast and slippery).
>

Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> If it becomes impossible to respect your descent schedule, is it
> permissible to ask ATC to give you a hold temporarily so that you can
> descend in the hold pattern until you're back to your planned descent?
> If so, is this a fairly common procedure, or very unusual? I'm
> thinking with respect to large commercial jets in particular (or
> potentially any jet, since they usually seem to be fast and slippery).

Probably more of an issue for Mooney and Lasair pilots than for jets
that can descend at 3,000 FPM.

-Robert

[Scott Skylane]

Sam Spade wrote:


> Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
> speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."

Sam,

Never say never;) I have asked for, and received a turn in the hold to
lose altitude, after arriving at the final fix about 10,000 feet high.
This was due to descent restrictions from center because of other
approaches in progress. The flight spoilers on a 727 are *very*
effective, but they can't perform miracles!

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Sam Spade]

Scott Skylane wrote:
> Sam Spade wrote:
>
>
>> Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
>> speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."
>
>
> Sam,
>
> Never say never;) I have asked for, and received a turn in the hold to
> lose altitude, after arriving at the final fix about 10,000 feet high.
> This was due to descent restrictions from center because of other
> approaches in progress. The flight spoilers on a 727 are *very*
> effective, but they can't perform miracles!
>
> Happy Flying!
> Scott Skylane

Your mileage may vary. ;-)

I've got almost 8,000 hours in the 727 and never, ever did an approach
hold or procedure turn. Delay vectors, yes.

[Newps]

Scott Skylane wrote:


>
> Never say never;) I have asked for, and received a turn in the hold to
> lose altitude, after arriving at the final fix about 10,000 feet high.
> This was due to descent restrictions from center because of other
> approaches in progress. The flight spoilers on a 727 are *very*
> effective, but they can't perform miracles!

You also must also factor in pilot incompetence. I can't begin to tell
you how many times these jet pilots, almost always from the majors like
NWA and UAL as well as from the regionals like Skywest, report on the
freq 35 miles out at FL230 or higher. This is not centers fault as the
descent clearance was given about 200 miles out. Center usually gives a
PD descent and these guys continually foul it up. So to illuminate your
mistake I will drive you right at the airport and make you beg for mercy.

[Mxsmanic]

Sam Spade writes:

> Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
> speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."

I've tried spoilers, but they aren't always sufficient to please the
FMC. Now I go through every leg of the route checking for
unreasonable-looking descents (or, theoretically, climbs, although the
FMC seems to calculate those more reliably).

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[Sam Spade]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Sam Spade writes:
>
>
>>Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
>>speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."
>
>
> I've tried spoilers, but they aren't always sufficient to please the
> FMC. Now I go through every leg of the route checking for
> unreasonable-looking descents (or, theoretically, climbs, although the
> FMC seems to calculate those more reliably).
>

In the 727 we didn't have any FMC to keep happy. We actually had to
figure it all out by ourselves.

[Sam Spade]

Newps wrote:

>
>
> Scott Skylane wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Never say never;) I have asked for, and received a turn in the hold
>> to lose altitude, after arriving at the final fix about 10,000 feet
>> high. This was due to descent restrictions from center because of
>> other approaches in progress. The flight spoilers on a 727 are *very*
>> effective, but they can't perform miracles!
>
>
> You also must also factor in pilot incompetence. I can't begin to tell
> you how many times these jet pilots, almost always from the majors like
> NWA and UAL as well as from the regionals like Skywest, report on the
> freq 35 miles out at FL230 or higher. This is not centers fault as the
> descent clearance was given about 200 miles out. Center usually gives a
> PD descent and these guys continually foul it up. So to illuminate your
> mistake I will drive you right at the airport and make you beg for mercy.


But, for every "incompetent" pilot from NWA and UAL how many do it so
smoothly you actually think they might know what they are doing?

[Newps]

Sam Spade wrote:


>
>
>
> But, for every "incompetent" pilot from NWA and UAL how many do it so
> smoothly you actually think they might know what they are doing?

10% of the crews have this problem.

[Mxsmanic]

Sam Spade writes:

> In the 727 we didn't have any FMC to keep happy. We actually had to
> figure it all out by ourselves.

What little experimentation I've done seems to indicate that the FMC
is very often correct when it says a particular descent cannot be
achieved. Of course, it assumes certain constraints that you can
ignore if you fly by hand (unless, I suppose, you're stuck with an
Airbus).

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