Can gliders and powered aircraft co-exist on the same runway?

[Ron Lee]

Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
operational issues?

Ron Lee

[BT]

They can exist on the same runway.. but it would depend on the volume of
traffic of each type.
With a student doing touch and goes in the pattern, it would be difficult to
"stage and launch" a glider without a good ground crew that can push the
glider with the pilot already strapped in and ready for launch.

A large area near the threshold for staging and being able to "launch at an
angle to the runway and onto the runway" would work best. Also an area to
land and then have the glider "roll clear" to the side would also work best.
Runway side lights tend to cause a problem for this.

I would suggest opposite patterns so you can see each other on downwind and
base.

At our airport we are lucky to have parallel paved runways, one for glider
and one for power.
Multiple glider operations does cause congestion on the glider runway, we do
have a cleared infield and no runway lights on the "glider runway" so that
landing gliders can roll clear, or if the runway is blocked by a landing
glider, the next glider in the landing sequence can land on the infield, if
not long or short.
BT, CFIG

"Ron Lee" > wrote in message
...
> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?
>
> Ron Lee

[[email protected]]

I can think of two examples from my own personal experience:
1. Terry Airport (TYQ)- north side of Indianapolis, former home of the
Central Indiana Soaring Society, usually had right hand traffic for
gliders, which frequently used the parallel grass but would also use
the pavement. They are not there anymore because of big increase in jet
traffic at that airport.

2. Harnett County, North Carolina. Home of North Carolina Soaring
Assoc. much less busy airport, staged off the pavement for launching,
but would also use the grass to the side (not a formal strip) to land.
More traffic was overhead with the proximity to Fort Bragg and Pope
AFB. Also used right hand traffic for gliders.

-Ryan

[chris[_1_]]

Ron Lee wrote:
> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?
>
> Ron Lee

Matamata, New Zealand - very very wide grass runways, AFAIK it's
gliders one side, powered the other..

[Doug Spencer]

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 04:14:45 GMT
(Ron Lee) wrote:

> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?

Stanton (KSYN), http://www.stantonairfield.com/ runs a lot of glider
operations on the same runways as powered traffic, including students
and sport pilots. Stanton Airfield is the headquarters of the Minnesota
Soaring Club.

The gliders use the same traffic patterns, but sometimes do a short
approach or enter on base leg or final rather than downwind. Glider
traffic has the right of way over powered aircraft. After landing, they
roll off to the side of the runway and are pulled back to the staging
area by a golf cart.

Powered traffic just lands beyond the staging area and taxis on the
opposite side of the runway.

Doug

--
For UNIX, Linux and security articles
visit http://SecurityBulletins.com/

[george]

chris wrote:

> Ron Lee wrote:
> > Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> > the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> > operational issues?
> >
> > Ron Lee
>
> Matamata, New Zealand - very very wide grass runways, AFAIK it's
> gliders one side, powered the other..

and Paraparaumu.
According to the AIP just about every airfield here (except AK, WGTN,
CHCH and Ohakea)

[Ash Wyllie]

B A R R Y opined

>On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 04:14:45 GMT, (Ron Lee)
>wrote:

>>Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
>>the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
>>operational issues?

>In Stowe, VT, the gliders use a turf strip parallel to the paved
>runway.

Franconia NH, 1B5.

-ash
Cthulhu in 2007!
Why wait for nature?

[[email protected]]

Ron Lee wrote:
> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?
>
> Ron Lee

5c1 north of San Antonio, Texas. Also known as Boerne Stage.

It has a paved runway used by both gliders and powered aircraft.
Parallel and close by is a grass strip. Powered and gliders can use
the grass, but it was usually used by gliders if the main runway was
occupied.

Traffic patterns were the same, IIRC. Of course, gliders had the right
of way. There were some pattern limitations due to nearby residents
who chose to live near an airport but didn't want to hear airplanes.

Neat place.

[Ash Wyllie]

B A R R Y opined

>On 13 Jan 2007 20:41:2 -0500, "Ash Wyllie" > wrote:

>>B A R R Y opined
>>
>>
>>Franconia NH, 1B5.

>Is that where the gliders come from that see in the Nashua area?

Probably not, I suspect that it is a long way, through the notch, from Fanconia
to Nashua. And I bet it would seem even longer on the return trip.


-ash
Cthulhu in 2007!
Why wait for nature?

[James]

Ron Lee wrote:
> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?
>
> Ron Lee
At Dansville,NY, (KDSV) the gliders take off on a grass strip to the
right of 14, and fly a right hand traffic pattern. One day I was flying
into Dansville, and the winds were light and variable. The gliders were
departing from 14 (turf or right), and the tow plane was doing a 180 and
landing, flying straight in on the opposing runway, 32, on the bitumen.
It all sounded a bit different listening on the CTAF, to work out what
the active runway was, so I flew over the field and worked out what was
going on. The winds did favour slightly 14, so this could be a cause for
a concern for a head on type accident. I landed on 14 myself, once I
had worked out the 32 was being used purely for the convienience of the
tow plane.

James.

[BT]

>>>Franconia NH, 1B5.
>
>>Is that where the gliders come from that see in the Nashua area?
>
> Probably not, I suspect that it is a long way, through the notch, from
> Fanconia
> to Nashua. And I bet it would seem even longer on the return trip.
>
>
> -ash
> Cthulhu in 2007!
> Why wait for nature?

the Flight School at Daniel Webster College in Nashua has some "motor
gliders" for part of their syllabus
There are a lot of Glider Clubs and fields just over the line in
Massachusetts. Those clubs do use Franconia in the summer. I had my first
glider ride at Franconia, while I was a student at DWC.

BT
NEAI (DWC) Alumn

[Deane Judd]

Ron Lee wrote:
> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?

Hollister, CA (3O7)has crossing runways (31-13, 06-24). Fixed wing
(powered and gliders) use left traffic, helicopters use right traffic.
Bit of a pain waiting for glider hookup, which takes place on the runway
- causes periodic 2 minute delays.

When winds are calm, powered use 31, gliders use 24. In the afternoon
when the west winds pick up, everyone uses 24 including the turbine
powered air tankers when landing - although they always use the 6000 ft
31 for takeoff when loaded.

Deane Judd
Cessna R172K

[Dave[_5_]]

Doug Spencer wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 04:14:45 GMT

> > Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> > the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> > operational issues?


At Santa Ynez, CA (IZA) the gliders use a long grass/dirt overrun area
on the east end of runway 8/26. The wind is usually from the west, so
gliders taking off under tow do interfere with powered traffic. Landing
both they and their towplanes usually stop short of the runway
threshold. IIRC they fly a right hand pattern, whereas powered traffic
uses left hand.

The gliding and powered operations seem to coexist without much problem
- but I, for one, never liked the distractions of aircraft and people
on the ground near the runway threshold. Once, long ago, the wind was
from the East, and I was about to take off on runway 8. Just before
taxiing into position a glider appeared (unannounced) making a downwind
landing. He landed long, and rolled down the remaining runway, past my
nose and into the grass at the far end. I was not amused.

David Johnson

[Doug[_1_]]

The SAME runway? I think you are asking for trouble. A glider cannot do
a go around. There are lots of ways for things to go bad in this
scenario, but I think the most frequent is a plane taking off does not
see an incoming glider and takes the runway. The glider cannot do a go
around and an accident ensues. And probably several temper tantrums for
every accident. Maybe the glider will land safely but it still will
anger everyone involved. And don't count on radios fixing this. Neither
planes nor gliders are required to have radios.

The gliders really do need a seperate runway just for them. Anything
else is just asking for trouble.

Ron Lee wrote:
> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?
>
> Ron Lee

[BT]

Doug, a "properly trained" glider pilot will always have an alternate
landing area available just in case some one blocks the runway while he is
in the traffic pattern. I will agree that such incursions onto the runway at
too low an altitude to effect a divert to the alternate landing area may
result in an accident.

In that instance the offending pilot, whether power or glider, will be shot
at sunset if not sooner so as to be a lesson to other pilots that do not
know how to use their god given calibrated Mk-1 Eyeballs.

If the landing glider pilot is injured in the accident, his glider pilot
flying mates are empowered to execute the offender. We do "adjust" the
punishment with the full knowledge that "everyone makes mistakes", we need
to train properly to handle those that "always make mistakes".

Yes it is nice to have a separate parallel runway, we do, and we still have
problems with runway incursion. Mostly by transients that do not know what
an "airfield directory is" or even how to look up the runway numbers or the
fact that there are parallel runways or even gliders in the area, or the
jump zone, or the designated acrobatic box.

The runway can be used by anyone, it is not a "glider only runway".

BT

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The SAME runway? I think you are asking for trouble. A glider cannot do
> a go around. There are lots of ways for things to go bad in this
> scenario, but I think the most frequent is a plane taking off does not
> see an incoming glider and takes the runway. The glider cannot do a go
> around and an accident ensues. And probably several temper tantrums for
> every accident. Maybe the glider will land safely but it still will
> anger everyone involved. And don't count on radios fixing this. Neither
> planes nor gliders are required to have radios.
>
> The gliders really do need a seperate runway just for them. Anything
> else is just asking for trouble.
>
> Ron Lee wrote:
>> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
>> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
>> operational issues?
>>
>> Ron Lee
>

[Doug[_1_]]

Yeah, nice airport crowd. Make a mistake and you are "shot". And you
are advocating this type of operation?

Why not make a design that MINIMIZES conflict, not maximizes them?

Get serious. YOUR airport has a seperate runway for gliders. I wonder
why?

BT wrote:
> Doug, a "properly trained" glider pilot will always have an alternate
> landing area available just in case some one blocks the runway while he is
> in the traffic pattern. I will agree that such incursions onto the runway at
> too low an altitude to effect a divert to the alternate landing area may
> result in an accident.
>
> In that instance the offending pilot, whether power or glider, will be shot
> at sunset if not sooner so as to be a lesson to other pilots that do not
> know how to use their god given calibrated Mk-1 Eyeballs.
>
> If the landing glider pilot is injured in the accident, his glider pilot
> flying mates are empowered to execute the offender. We do "adjust" the
> punishment with the full knowledge that "everyone makes mistakes", we need
> to train properly to handle those that "always make mistakes".
>
> Yes it is nice to have a separate parallel runway, we do, and we still have
> problems with runway incursion. Mostly by transients that do not know what
> an "airfield directory is" or even how to look up the runway numbers or the
> fact that there are parallel runways or even gliders in the area, or the
> jump zone, or the designated acrobatic box.
>
> The runway can be used by anyone, it is not a "glider only runway".
>
> BT
>
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > The SAME runway? I think you are asking for trouble. A glider cannot do
> > a go around. There are lots of ways for things to go bad in this
> > scenario, but I think the most frequent is a plane taking off does not
> > see an incoming glider and takes the runway. The glider cannot do a go
> > around and an accident ensues. And probably several temper tantrums for
> > every accident. Maybe the glider will land safely but it still will
> > anger everyone involved. And don't count on radios fixing this. Neither
> > planes nor gliders are required to have radios.
> >
> > The gliders really do need a seperate runway just for them. Anything
> > else is just asking for trouble.
> >
> > Ron Lee wrote:
> >> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> >> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> >> operational issues?
> >>
> >> Ron Lee
> >

[[email protected]]

Generally the glider traffic uses opposite traffic from the power
traffic (left/right).

We operate single runway, power and glider operations at Salida,
Colorado, Buena Vista, Colorado, Fremont County (Cannon City),
Colorado and FNL (Fort Collins/Loveland), Colorado.

We will NEVER be able to train the power pilots about glider
operations, so it requires that the glider pilots, tow pilots
and glider ground crew are always watching, have a plan
and an alternate plan. I've often landed on the main runway,
then chosen my place (between the runway lights) and taxied
off the runway into the grass to clear the runway because
I knew the power pilot behind me was clueless.

Yes, I have 6 times more power time than glider time... with 6000
hours total time. It just takes safety awareness and PLANNING!

Ron Lee > wrote:
> Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> operational issues?

> Ron Lee


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer at frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 247 Young Eagles!

[BT]

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yeah, nice airport crowd. Make a mistake and you are "shot". And you
> are advocating this type of operation?
>
> Why not make a design that MINIMIZES conflict, not maximizes them?
>
> Get serious. YOUR airport has a seperate runway for gliders. I wonder
> why?
>

Doug, obviously you did not catch my "tongue in cheek". But yes, we do have
serious conversations with those that transgress and we have politely not
renewed some club members based on their flying inabilities.

Short of using two different airports separated by miles, Parallel design is
the safest that minimizes conflict.
We run parallel operations, we have left and right traffic patterns, we talk
on the radio and we train everyone that radios fail.

We have 3 power flying schools at neighboring airports that come here for
touch and go practice and first solo operations, plus 2 nearby helicopter
schools that use our airport for training, two Jump Businesses on airport
and two Commercial Glider "joy ride" operations on the field in addition to
our club operations. Plus the local Acro club has the designated Acro Box
just outside and above the west downwind, we use it too, for spin training.

Everything works just fine, What we cannot protect against is the transient
that never checks NOTAMs and never looks at an A/FD.

We have two runways because the club was here on a dirt strip and we hauled
in our own fuel. When the county came in to "upgrade", we were able to
convince them the wise and safe aspects of building a second runway. The
second runway has no lights, is 60ft wide and 3500ft long with 600ft gravel
under/over runs at each end, and the infield from the runway to the taxiway
is bladed smooth to the same elevation as the paved portions.

BT

[K l e i n]

At my airport, KBZN, we have lots of different traffic - maybe a dozen
airline flights/day, lots of bizjets and everything else including
flight training, Cubs, aerobatics, glider and parachutes. We have 3
runways, 12-30 at 9kft long, 11-29 sod parallel to the main, and 3-21
at 3kft crossing 12-30 near the east end. We also have a contract
control tower.

Normally, glider traffic uses the 3-21 runway, launching from 3 and
landing 21. If the winds get too strong to support this, the gliders
usually pack it in for the day. The guys out ridge running figure out
something when they arrive - usually singly. This almost always works
out ok. But.....there are a bunch of hangars around 3-21 and the
planes based there like to use 3-21 also.

Once, I was in the pattern to land my glider on 21 when a guy in a 30's
era biplane called tower to takeoff on runway 3. Tower cleared him
into "position and hold" which he did. Meanwhile, I'm base turning
final for 21 at about 200 ft. Obviously, tower forgot about me. Tower
then clears him to takeoff into my face, which he did. Yikes! Too late
to talk with tower about it, I did a quick 180 then a 90 to land on 30
and coasted to a stop hundreds of feet from a taxiway. Of course, this
shut down the airport for about five minutes while I dragged my glider
off without help. Would have been nice if the biplane guy had better
SA. Would have been nice if tower could have heard me better. I
quickly got a much better radio installed in the glider.

But hey, it usually works pretty well. But you need a backup plan

K l e i n


wrote:
> Generally the glider traffic uses opposite traffic from the power
> traffic (left/right).
>
> We operate single runway, power and glider operations at Salida,
> Colorado, Buena Vista, Colorado, Fremont County (Cannon City),
> Colorado and FNL (Fort Collins/Loveland), Colorado.
>
> We will NEVER be able to train the power pilots about glider
> operations, so it requires that the glider pilots, tow pilots
> and glider ground crew are always watching, have a plan
> and an alternate plan. I've often landed on the main runway,
> then chosen my place (between the runway lights) and taxied
> off the runway into the grass to clear the runway because
> I knew the power pilot behind me was clueless.
>
> Yes, I have 6 times more power time than glider time... with 6000
> hours total time. It just takes safety awareness and PLANNING!
>
> Ron Lee > wrote:
> > Can anyone identify and airport where gliders and powered aircraft use
> > the same runway? Do they use opposite traffic patterns? Any other
> > operational issues?
>
> > Ron Lee
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
> --
> Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
> CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer at frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
> C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
> CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 247 Young Eagles!