Navy Wings? [Archive] - AviationBanter

qui si parla Campagnolo

January 18th 07, 02:10 PM

Mike Kanze wrote:
> During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency. Thus it would not be surprising to hear of a serving General officer still sporting Wings of Lead, especially if his later flying career (C-130s, for example) never took him in the vicinity of El Boat or required him to carqual.

BUT if they went on to fly in the USMC, they would have had gold wings,
not USAF wings, even if they didn't go to the boat..I'm guessing it was
Naval Parachutist wings...get USA jump wings, do 5 more jumps, get USN
jump wings.
>
> If they were gold, the "star" may in fact have been a deployed parachute, i.e., Naval Parachutist.
>
> --
> Mike Kanze
>
> "There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."
>
> - Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)
>
> "nmg175" > wrote in message . ..
> Saw a B/G Marine with what appeared to be Navy Pilot Wings on his tunic on
> C-SPAN.
>
> But these were different, they had a Star in the middle, looked very similar
> to the U.S. Air Force Senior Pilot wings.
>
> Have they gone to this approach, with Command Pilot also?
>
> Or where these some sort of other Aeronautical Speciality?
>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01C73A55.BCCCAD70
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> <STYLE></STYLE>
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> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students
> went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency. Thus it would
> not be surprising to hear of a serving General officer still sporting Wings of
> Lead, especially if his later flying career (C-130s, for example) never took him
> in the vicinity of El Boat or required him to carqual. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>If they were gold, the "star" may in fact have been a
> deployed parachute, i.e., Naval Parachutist. </FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial><BR>--
> <BR>Mike Kanze</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>"There's a fine line between evil and
> underpaid."</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>- Carol The Secretary, Dilbert
> (1/14/2007)<BR></FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE
> style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV>"nmg175" <<A
> </A>> wrote in message
> <A
> </A>...</DIV>Saw
> a B/G Marine with what appeared to be Navy Pilot Wings on his tunic on
> <BR>C-SPAN.<BR><BR>But these were different, they had a Star in the middle,
> looked very similar <BR>to the U.S. Air Force Senior Pilot wings.<BR><BR>Have
> they gone to this approach, with Command Pilot also?<BR><BR>Or where these
> some sort of other Aeronautical Speciality? <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01C73A55.BCCCAD70--

qui si parla Campagnolo

January 18th 07, 02:13 PM

nmg175 wrote:
> Saw a B/G Marine with what appeared to be Navy Pilot Wings on his tunic on
> C-SPAN.
>
> But these were different, they had a Star in the middle, looked very similar
> to the U.S. Air Force Senior Pilot wings.
>
> Have they gone to this approach, with Command Pilot also?
>
> Or where these some sort of other Aeronautical Speciality?

If not really a star, could have been aircrew wings, from a former
enlisted life..did USMC have aircrew wings?

BUT, USN hasn't sullied the Gold wings with goofy stars and I doubt any
USN/USMC aviator would sully his unisform with USAF or USA wings.

Greasy Rider[_1_]

January 18th 07, 02:54 PM

On 18 Jan 2007 06:13:14 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
> postulated :

>If not really a star, could have been aircrew wings, from a former
>enlisted life..did USMC have aircrew wings?

Yep; I earned mine in May of 1957 NATTC Memphis, TN. and I have the
scars to prove it.

Mike Kanze

January 18th 07, 06:16 PM

>BUT if they went on to fly in the USMC, they would have had gold wings

Not necessarily.

Nearly all of the JOs in VMA(AW)-224 sported Wings of Lead when that outfit deployed with CVW-15 / USS CORAL SEA during 1972. Only the senior leadership of 224 were carqualed (i.e., Wings of Gold) and none of these folks had seen a rounddown since the training command.

However, I suspect the JOs all earned their Wings of Gold during that cruise, on the basis of OJT if nothing else.

This was the first time the Marines had ever taken the A-6 aboard the boat, having previously operated it ashore in expeditionary mode. 224 went through a carqual syllabus as part of its pre-cruise workup which could only be described as "colorful," with the LEX's skipper effectively banishing them from his flight deck.

--
Mike Kanze

"There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."

- Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)

"qui si parla Campagnolo" > wrote in message ps.com...

Mike Kanze wrote:
> During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency. Thus it would not be surprising to hear of a serving General officer still sporting Wings of Lead, especially if his later flying career (C-130s, for example) never took him in the vicinity of El Boat or required him to carqual.

BUT if they went on to fly in the USMC, they would have had gold wings,
not USAF wings, even if they didn't go to the boat..I'm guessing it was
Naval Parachutist wings...get USA jump wings, do 5 more jumps, get USN
jump wings.
>
> If they were gold, the "star" may in fact have been a deployed parachute, i.e., Naval Parachutist.
>
> --
> Mike Kanze
>
> "There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."
>
> - Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)
>
> "nmg175" > wrote in message . ..
> Saw a B/G Marine with what appeared to be Navy Pilot Wings on his tunic on
> C-SPAN.
>
> But these were different, they had a Star in the middle, looked very similar
> to the U.S. Air Force Senior Pilot wings.
>
> Have they gone to this approach, with Command Pilot also?
>
> Or where these some sort of other Aeronautical Speciality?
>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01C73A55.BCCCAD70
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> X-Google-AttachSize: 1922
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=GENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students
> went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency. Thus it would
> not be surprising to hear of a serving General officer still sporting Wings of
> Lead, especially if his later flying career (C-130s, for example) never took him
> in the vicinity of El Boat or required him to carqual. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>If they were gold, the "star" may in fact have been a
> deployed parachute, i.e., Naval Parachutist. </FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial><BR>--
> <BR>Mike Kanze</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>"There's a fine line between evil and
> underpaid."</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>- Carol The Secretary, Dilbert
> (1/14/2007)<BR></FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE
> style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV>"nmg175" <<A
> </A>> wrote in message
> <A
> </A>...</DIV>Saw
> a B/G Marine with what appeared to be Navy Pilot Wings on his tunic on
> <BR>C-SPAN.<BR><BR>But these were different, they had a Star in the middle,
> looked very similar <BR>to the U.S. Air Force Senior Pilot wings.<BR><BR>Have
> they gone to this approach, with Command Pilot also?<BR><BR>Or where these
> some sort of other Aeronautical Speciality? <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01C73A55.BCCCAD70--

vincent p. norris

January 19th 07, 03:22 AM

>During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency.

Migawd!!! I never heard that!!!

I was a Marine-no-longer-on-active-duty by that time, but nevertheless
it's hard to believe. Can you supply details?

vince norris

vincent p. norris

January 19th 07, 03:25 AM

>Mike Kanze wrote:
>> During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency. Thus it would not be surprising to hear of a serving General officer still sporting Wings of Lead, especially if his later flying career (C-130s, for example) never took him in the vicinity of El Boat or required him to carqual.
>
>BUT if they went on to fly in the USMC, they would have had gold wings,
>not USAF wings, even if they didn't go to the boat....

The got gold wings wihout CQing?

>I'm guessing it was Naval Parachutist wings...

This gets more bewildering by the minute. What do Parachutist wings
have to do with being a Naval Aviator?

vince norris

qui si parla Campagnolo

January 19th 07, 02:03 PM

vincent p. norris wrote:
> >Mike Kanze wrote:
> >> During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency. Thus it would not be surprising to hear of a serving General officer still sporting Wings of Lead, especially if his later flying career (C-130s, for example) never took him in the vicinity of El Boat or required him to carqual.
> >
> >BUT if they went on to fly in the USMC, they would have had gold wings,
> >not USAF wings, even if they didn't go to the boat....
>
> The got gold wings wihout CQing?
>
> >I'm guessing it was Naval Parachutist wings...
>
> This gets more bewildering by the minute. What do Parachutist wings
> have to do with being a Naval Aviator?
>
> vince norris

I knew guys that flew the C-130 in the USMC, that never went thru USN
training of any sort and a few that started USN training, T-34, T-28,
NO CQ, then off to helos or trash haulers. Not all USMC students when I
was in the TRACOM(1973-1974) went to the boat.

But the OP said he saw some gold wings on some general USMC officer on
TV with what looked like not a shield/anchor on his gold wings..some
'postulated' that they might be USN master jump wings is all.

R Leonard

January 19th 07, 02:33 PM

vincent p. norris wrote:
>
> This gets more bewildering by the minute. What do Parachutist wings
> have to do with being a Naval Aviator?
>

Probably nothing, but the original poster was asking about something he
saw in an news bite that looked a little odd. If one were to take a
look at the photos posted of all those USMC BGs you can see who is
qualified as what. Just out of curiosity I did so and saw no unusual
wings or devices, and none with stars attached to or above their
qualification device. Of 52 BGs, 15 are Naval Aviators. Two Naval
Aviators are also wear wings Naval Parachutists and two others for
Basic Parachutists. Two of the 52 are Naval Flight Officers. Eight
are Naval Parachutists (making a total of 10 so qualified) and four of
them are also Scuba Divers. Another five are Basic Parachutists
(making a total of 7 so qualified). The remaining 22 do not display
wings of any kind nor diver's helmet badges.

Rich

nmg175

January 19th 07, 02:40 PM

These were GOLD wings, not Silver!
"Mike Kanze" > wrote in message . ..
During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency. Thus it would not be surprising to hear of a serving General officer still sporting Wings of Lead, especially if his later flying career (C-130s, for example) never took him in the vicinity of El Boat or required him to carqual.

If they were gold, the "star" may in fact have been a deployed parachute, i.e., Naval Parachutist.

--
Mike Kanze

"There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."

- Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)

"nmg175" > wrote in message . ..
Saw a B/G Marine with what appeared to be Navy Pilot Wings on his tunic on
C-SPAN.

But these were different, they had a Star in the middle, looked very similar
to the U.S. Air Force Senior Pilot wings.

Have they gone to this approach, with Command Pilot also?

Or where these some sort of other Aeronautical Speciality?

Ed Rasimus[_1_]

January 19th 07, 04:34 PM

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:22:12 -0500, vincent p. norris >
wrote:

>>During the Vietnam era a number of USMC flight students went through the USAF pilot training pipeline as an expediency.
>
>Migawd!!! I never heard that!!!
>
>I was a Marine-no-longer-on-active-duty by that time, but nevertheless
>it's hard to believe. Can you supply details?
>
>vince norris

That would have been around 1968-70. At that time the requirements for
Naval Aviators exceeded what Pensacola could produce. For comparison
it should be noted that USAF pilot training went up from eight to ten
bases dedicated to the mission.

Although the USAF didn't have truly "excess" capability, they could
absorb a bit of the load for the Navy. We took one USMC student per
class (8 classes per year) per base (10 bases). The Marines went
through the full and complete USAF UPT syllabus (T-41/T-37/T-38) and
upon graduation were awarded USAF pilot wings.

They then went to Pensacola for USN completion training which included
CARQUAL. As far as I know, they were all fast jet tracked. Upon
completion of that abbreviated program they were awarded USN gold
wings and assigned to their operational training.

I was a UPT instructor during the period at Williams AFB in AZ. Since
then I've crossed paths with several of the students and swapped TINS
stories.

As a follow-on, at the wind-down of the war, requirements were
drastically reduced (late 1970) and while USAF chose to cut the
training pipeline at the acquisition point--reduce recruiting for
pilot slots, the Navy opted to cut immediately across the board. On
one Black Friday they went into Pensacola and cut more than 400
students in training. Several were within weeks of graduation.

A number of these Navy pilot candidates were given the opportunity for
inter-service transfers and were picked up by the USAF where they
completed UPT. (At that time I was on the MAJCOM staff at Air Training
Command managing UPT/UNT/UHT and Survival courses).

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[email protected]

January 19th 07, 05:37 PM

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:34:22 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

<snipped for brevity>

>As a follow-on, at the wind-down of the war, requirements were
>drastically reduced (late 1970) and while USAF chose to cut the
>training pipeline at the acquisition point--reduce recruiting for
>pilot slots, the Navy opted to cut immediately across the board. On
>one Black Friday they went into Pensacola and cut more than 400
>students in training. Several were within weeks of graduation.

I remember this. I was in Pensacola with a CQ det from VS-30 (the S-2
RAG) the next week. I had a cousin about to graduate from AOC and he
got RIFed. He told me that they just went in and cut the bottom 50%
of each class. He was awaiting his discharge.

You could pick up REAL good deals on "muscle cars" as the BOQ parking
lot looked like a used car lot for all the "for sale" signs.

Navy personnel management practices are not always "top drawer." :-(

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

Mike Kanze

January 19th 07, 11:04 PM

>one Black Friday they went into Pensacola and cut more than 400 students in training.

I remember this too. I had just finished BJN School at NAS Glynco, after having been offered a switch from RIO School (I was 3 weeks into the RIO pipeline) because "the Navy desperately needed A-6 B/Ns."

You can guess the rest. No one in our BJN class got any A-6 RAG orders, and there were no impending inputs into the A-3 or RA-5C RAGs (the two other outlets at that time for BJN grads). My entire class was SERGRADed.

I felt sorry for myself, but not for long once the word got out about the Big Attrite. At least I had wings, a DIFOT billet at VT-7 / NAS Meridian, and a deferred shot at the bird (A-6) and coast (west) of my choice. It all worked out OK, except my 18 months at NMM were the longest 3 years of my life.

--
Mike Kanze

"There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."

- Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)

> wrote in message ...
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:34:22 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

<snipped for brevity>

>As a follow-on, at the wind-down of the war, requirements were
>drastically reduced (late 1970) and while USAF chose to cut the
>training pipeline at the acquisition point--reduce recruiting for
>pilot slots, the Navy opted to cut immediately across the board. On
>one Black Friday they went into Pensacola and cut more than 400
>students in training. Several were within weeks of graduation.

I remember this. I was in Pensacola with a CQ det from VS-30 (the S-2
RAG) the next week. I had a cousin about to graduate from AOC and he
got RIFed. He told me that they just went in and cut the bottom 50%
of each class. He was awaiting his discharge.

You could pick up REAL good deals on "muscle cars" as the BOQ parking
lot looked like a used car lot for all the "for sale" signs.

Navy personnel management practices are not always "top drawer." :-(

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

John[_8_]

January 19th 07, 11:26 PM

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:25:51 -0500, vincent p. norris >
wrote:

>The got gold wings wihout CQing?

Absolutely! Anyone who completes the Naval Aviation Training Command
syllabus for their pipeline gets gold wings, regardless of whether
they carrier qualified or not. The best example is the prop pipline
which ceased CARQUALing all SNA's in the mid-70's. Only those with
orders to the E-2/C-2 go through the CARQUAL syllabus.

The better answer for the original post is that it is probaby
astronaut wings. I believe there is one USMC flag office that was on a
shuttle team. Don't recall who or whether they were pilot or mission
specialist.

USN Astronaut wings are gold and the center device could look like a
star with the right lighting and camera angle.

John Alger USN(ret)
1972-1997 // 1310,1320
TA-4J, A-7E, EC-130Q, P-3B

John Weiss[_1_]

January 20th 07, 12:01 AM

vincent p. norris wrote:
>
> This gets more bewildering by the minute. What do Parachutist wings
> have to do with being a Naval Aviator?

Gold Navy Parachutist wings look similar to Aviator wings, to the average
non-military person. An enlisted Marine may well be a qualified
parachutist. An unscrupulous one may try to pass them off as Aviator
wings...

Mike Kanze

January 20th 07, 12:21 AM

>The best example is the prop pipline which ceased CARQUALing all SNA's in the mid-70's.

Not to mention USCG fixed-wing aviators, who all wear Wings of Gold and who (to my best knowledge) have never been required to hit the boat.

--
Mike Kanze

"There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."

- Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)

"John" > wrote in message ...
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:25:51 -0500, vincent p. norris >
wrote:

>The got gold wings wihout CQing?

Absolutely! Anyone who completes the Naval Aviation Training Command
syllabus for their pipeline gets gold wings, regardless of whether
they carrier qualified or not. The best example is the prop pipline
which ceased CARQUALing all SNA's in the mid-70's. Only those with
orders to the E-2/C-2 go through the CARQUAL syllabus.

The better answer for the original post is that it is probaby
astronaut wings. I believe there is one USMC flag office that was on a
shuttle team. Don't recall who or whether they were pilot or mission
specialist.

USN Astronaut wings are gold and the center device could look like a
star with the right lighting and camera angle.

John Alger USN(ret)
1972-1997 // 1310,1320
TA-4J, A-7E, EC-130Q, P-3B

vincent p. norris

January 20th 07, 02:35 AM

Thanks for all the informative replies.

vince norris

Bill Baker

January 20th 07, 02:59 AM

On 2007-01-19 08:34:22 -0800, Ed Rasimus > said:

[...]
> Although the USAF didn't have truly "excess" capability, they could
> absorb a bit of the load for the Navy. We took one USMC student per
> class (8 classes per year) per base (10 bases). The Marines went
> through the full and complete USAF UPT syllabus (T-41/T-37/T-38) and
> upon graduation were awarded USAF pilot wings.

[...]

> A number of these Navy pilot candidates were given the opportunity for
> inter-service transfers and were picked up by the USAF where they
> completed UPT.

Given the numbers you say the Navy cut, at least some of the pilots
given the chop must have been Marine sticks, right Ed? Which means,
presumably, that before UPT they would have gotten at least a good dose
of the "Every Marine is a rifleman!" USMC ethos in Corps OCS, if not
four years of it in NROTC. Must have been an interesting for these
guys to find themselves abruptly in the Air Force. I'm imagining a
freshly-winged butter bar in USAF dress blues except with a high 'n
tight, blood stripe on the trousers and a boarding sabre on his hip.

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[email protected]

January 20th 07, 04:36 AM

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:59:00 -0800, Bill Baker >
wrote:

>Given the numbers you say the Navy cut, at least some of the pilots
>given the chop must have been Marine sticks, right Ed?

IIRC this was a Navy RIF. I'm not sure any Marines got cut.

IIRC in the '72-'74 timeframe USN promotions to LT took a big
"nosedive." In the VP community it was particularly ugly. I also
remember that at least one year group got a second selection board (a
pretty rare occurence).

The funny thing was that by late '78 they were recalling Reservists to
fill mostly (but not exclusively) Training Command slots. They in '81
they had enough warm bodies to screw the guys they recalled. :-(

Like I say, Navy personnel management sometimes leave a lot to be
desired.

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

Mike Kanze

January 20th 07, 07:20 AM

>they would have gotten at least a good dose of the "Every Marine is a rifleman!" USMC ethos in Corps OCS, if not four years of it in NROTC.

Not sure, but I think all USMC officer flight students went through The Basic School (TBS) at Quantico before heading down to Pensacola. Makes sense, since if one could not get passed TBS, there was not point in throwing good $$ after bad.

As has been said well by others, the Senate may make one a Second Lieutenant, but only TBS will make one an officer of Marines.

--
Mike Kanze

"There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."

- Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)

"Bill Baker" > wrote in message ...
On 2007-01-19 08:34:22 -0800, Ed Rasimus > said:

[...]
> Although the USAF didn't have truly "excess" capability, they could
> absorb a bit of the load for the Navy. We took one USMC student per
> class (8 classes per year) per base (10 bases). The Marines went
> through the full and complete USAF UPT syllabus (T-41/T-37/T-38) and
> upon graduation were awarded USAF pilot wings.

[...]

> A number of these Navy pilot candidates were given the opportunity for
> inter-service transfers and were picked up by the USAF where they
> completed UPT.

Given the numbers you say the Navy cut, at least some of the pilots
given the chop must have been Marine sticks, right Ed? Which means,
presumably, that before UPT they would have gotten at least a good dose
of the "Every Marine is a rifleman!" USMC ethos in Corps OCS, if not
four years of it in NROTC. Must have been an interesting for these
guys to find themselves abruptly in the Air Force. I'm imagining a
freshly-winged butter bar in USAF dress blues except with a high 'n
tight, blood stripe on the trousers and a boarding sabre on his hip.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Byron Myers

January 20th 07, 06:41 PM

John wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:25:51 -0500, vincent p. norris >
> wrote:
>
>
>>The got gold wings wihout CQing?
>
>
> Absolutely! Anyone who completes the Naval Aviation Training Command
> syllabus for their pipeline gets gold wings, regardless of whether
> they carrier qualified or not. The best example is the prop pipline
> which ceased CARQUALing all SNA's in the mid-70's. Only those with
> orders to the E-2/C-2 go through the CARQUAL syllabus.
>
> The better answer for the original post is that it is probaby
> astronaut wings. I believe there is one USMC flag office that was on a
> shuttle team. Don't recall who or whether they were pilot or mission
> specialist.
>
> USN Astronaut wings are gold and the center device could look like a
> star with the right lighting and camera angle.
>
> John Alger USN(ret)
> 1972-1997 // 1310,1320
> TA-4J, A-7E, EC-130Q, P-3B

The Jan 2006 issue of All Hands magazine list all the badges/pins.
The OP might look here and see if he recognizes the one he is
referencing. Link below (requires Adobe reader).

http://www.news.navy.mil/media/allhands/acrobat/ah200601.pdf

Byron

vincent p. norris

January 21st 07, 12:32 AM

>The funny thing was that by late '78 they were recalling Reservists to
>fill mostly (but not exclusively) Training Command slots. They in '81
>they had enough warm bodies to screw the guys they recalled. :-(
>
>Like I say, Navy personnel management sometimes leave a lot to be
>desired.

When I got to Corpus Christi for Advanced Training (summer or fall of
'50), a bunch of Naval Aviator retreads were moving into the BOQ. They
told us they were a reserve squadron recalled to active duty for the
Korean war.

Some had sad tales of what it had cost them. One guy had just
finished law school but was forced to miss the bar exam. Another had
to sell a business he had just started.

That would have been acceptable, had they really been needed; but
before the week was out, they were told they weren't needed after all,
and could go back home.

vince norris

qui si parla Campagnolo

January 21st 07, 02:40 PM

Mike Kanze wrote:
> >one Black Friday they went into Pensacola and cut more than 400 students in training.
>
> I remember this too. I had just finished BJN School at NAS Glynco, after having been offered a switch from RIO School (I was 3 weeks into the RIO pipeline) because "the Navy desperately needed A-6 B/Ns."
>
> You can guess the rest. No one in our BJN class got any A-6 RAG orders, and there were no impending inputs into the A-3 or RA-5C RAGs (the two other outlets at that time for BJN grads). My entire class was SERGRADed.

When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
take the excess.

>
> I felt sorry for myself, but not for long once the word got out about the Big Attrite. At least I had wings, a DIFOT billet at VT-7 / NAS Meridian, and a deferred shot at the bird (A-6) and coast (west) of my choice. It all worked out OK, except my 18 months at NMM were the longest 3 years of my life.
>
> --
> Mike Kanze
>
> "There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."
>
> - Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)
>
> > wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:34:22 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> > wrote:
>
> <snipped for brevity>
>
> >As a follow-on, at the wind-down of the war, requirements were
> >drastically reduced (late 1970) and while USAF chose to cut the
> >training pipeline at the acquisition point--reduce recruiting for
> >pilot slots, the Navy opted to cut immediately across the board. On
> >one Black Friday they went into Pensacola and cut more than 400
> >students in training. Several were within weeks of graduation.
>
> I remember this. I was in Pensacola with a CQ det from VS-30 (the S-2
> RAG) the next week. I had a cousin about to graduate from AOC and he
> got RIFed. He told me that they just went in and cut the bottom 50%
> of each class. He was awaiting his discharge.
>
> You could pick up REAL good deals on "muscle cars" as the BOQ parking
> lot looked like a used car lot for all the "for sale" signs.
>
> Navy personnel management practices are not always "top drawer." :-(
>
> Bill Kambic
> Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
> Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão
> ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C73BDB.25AB2C00
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> X-Google-AttachSize: 3364
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=GENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>>one Black Friday they went into Pensacola and cut more
> than 400 students in training.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>I remember this too. I had just finished BJN School at NAS
> Glynco, after having been offered a switch from RIO School (I was 3 weeks into
> the RIO pipeline) because "the Navy desperately needed A-6 B/Ns." </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>You can guess the rest. No one in our BJN class got
> any A-6 RAG orders, and there were no impending inputs into the A-3 or RA-5C
> RAGs (the two other outlets at that time for BJN grads). My entire class was
> SERGRADed. </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>I felt sorry for myself, but not for long once the word
> got out about the Big Attrite. At least I had wings, a DIFOT billet at VT-7 /
> NAS Meridian, and a deferred shot at the bird (A-6) and coast (west)
> of my choice. It all worked out OK, except my 18 months at NMM were the longest
> 3 years of my life. </FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial>
> <DIV><BR>-- <BR>Mike Kanze</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>"There's a fine line between evil and underpaid."</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>- Carol The Secretary, Dilbert (1/14/2007)<BR></FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE
> style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV><<A </A>> wrote in
> message <A
> </A>...</DIV>On
> Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:34:22 GMT, Ed Rasimus<BR><<A
> </A>>
> wrote:<BR><BR><snipped for brevity><BR><BR>>As a follow-on, at the
> wind-down of the war, requirements were<BR>>drastically reduced (late 1970)
> and while USAF chose to cut the<BR>>training pipeline at the acquisition
> point--reduce recruiting for<BR>>pilot slots, the Navy opted to cut
> immediately across the board. On<BR>>one Black Friday they went into
> Pensacola and cut more than 400<BR>>students in training. Several were
> within weeks of graduation. <BR><BR>I remember this.  I was in Pensacola
> with a CQ det from VS-30 (the S-2<BR>RAG) the next week.  I had a cousin
> about to graduate from AOC and he<BR>got RIFed.  He told me that they
> just went in and cut the bottom 50%<BR>of each class.  He was awaiting
> his discharge.<BR><BR>You could pick up REAL good deals on "muscle cars" as
> the BOQ parking<BR>lot looked like a used car lot for all the "for sale"
> signs.<BR><BR>Navy personnel management practices are not always "top drawer."
> :-(<BR><BR>Bill Kambic<BR>Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN<BR>Mangalarga
> Marchador:  Uma Raça, Uma Paixão</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C73BDB.25AB2C00--

Bob Moore

January 21st 07, 03:27 PM

qui si parla Campagnolo wrote

> Mike Kanze wrote:
> My entire class was SERGRADed.
>
> When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
> weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
> nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
> take the excess.

What's SERGRADed?

Bob Moore
Pensacola Class 12-58

[email protected]

January 21st 07, 03:54 PM

On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore >
wrote:

>qui si parla Campagnolo wrote
>
>> Mike Kanze wrote:
>> My entire class was SERGRADed.
>>
>> When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
>> weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
>> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
>> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
>> nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
>> take the excess.
>
>What's SERGRADed?

SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
instructors.

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

Bob Moore

January 21st 07, 04:00 PM

Bill Kambic wrote
> SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
> instructors.

Thanks Bill

Bob

[email protected]

January 21st 07, 04:57 PM

On 21 Jan 2007 16:00:44 GMT, Bob Moore >
wrote:

> Bill Kambic wrote
>> SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
>> instructors.
>
>Thanks Bill

De nada!!!

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

Ed Rasimus[_1_]

January 21st 07, 05:40 PM

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, wrote:

>On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore >
>wrote:
>
>>qui si parla Campagnolo wrote
>>
>>> Mike Kanze wrote:
>>> My entire class was SERGRADed.
>>>
>>> When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
>>> weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
>>> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
>>> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
>>> nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
>>> take the excess.
>>
>>What's SERGRADed?
>
>SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
>instructors.
>
That's what we in the junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.

It was a result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilot
requirements at the end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreement
was that each major air command would take UPT graduates in proportion
to the number of line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command with
28% of the AF pilots at that time had to take a quarter of the
graduates.

There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[email protected]

January 21st 07, 09:33 PM

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:40:08 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
>turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
>good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
>the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
>tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.

Wow, the Navy never taught US that in IUT (Instructor Under Training)
school!!!!! :-)

The must have had a "Screamer" subspecialty course, though, because
there were a few of those.

I wonder, though, if the AF method might be a remnant of the old days
when cavalry officers were some of the first aviators. That method is
somewhat common in "old school" equitation instructors. ;-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

Ed Rasimus[_1_]

January 21st 07, 09:41 PM

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:33:27 -0500, wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:40:08 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:
>
>>There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
>>turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
>>good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
>>the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
>>tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.
>
>Wow, the Navy never taught US that in IUT (Instructor Under Training)
>school!!!!! :-)
>
>The must have had a "Screamer" subspecialty course, though, because
>there were a few of those.
>
>I wonder, though, if the AF method might be a remnant of the old days
>when cavalry officers were some of the first aviators. That method is
>somewhat common in "old school" equitation instructors. ;-)
>

I was never a believer in the "Screamer" method--I always found it
much more effective to mutter softly, just above the level of
audibility regarding the student's skill, intellect, breeding,
parentage, education, probable pending demise, and potential for
languishing the next ten years or so in a missile silo in N. Dakota.

When you could see the tears running down the front edge of the oxygen
mask and hear the quiet sobbing in the headset you knew you were at
the top of your game.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[email protected]

January 21st 07, 10:10 PM

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 21:41:39 GMT, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>I was never a believer in the "Screamer" method--I always found it
>much more effective to mutter softly, just above the level of
>audibility regarding the student's skill, intellect, breeding,
>parentage, education, probable pending demise, and potential for
>languishing the next ten years or so in a missile silo in N. Dakota.

Ah, the "Fulton Sheen Gambit": Speak very softly forcing them to pay
attention lest they miss some part of the "discussion"!! :-)

>When you could see the tears running down the front edge of the oxygen
>mask and hear the quiet sobbing in the headset you knew you were at
>the top of your game.

Indeed.

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

Mike Kanze

January 21st 07, 10:57 PM

SERGRAD = "SElected and Retained GRADuate" (I think).

"SERGRADed" = Plowed back into the Training Command right after wings to train more studs who then get immediately SERGRADed and train yet more studs, etc.

Seriously, during the early 1970s the Navy became quite concerned about the unintended consequences of SERGRADing so many folks. These concerns ranged from pilot quality degradation (like W. Edwards Deming's "worker training worker" effect), the leper colony taint of long Training Command tenure, and bass-ackward career planning challenges that totally baffled Aviation JO detailers in BUPERS.

--
Mike Kanze

"Press '1' if you speak English, press '2' to disconnect until you can."

- Anonymous

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message 6.128...
qui si parla Campagnolo wrote

> Mike Kanze wrote:
> My entire class was SERGRADed.
>
> When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
> weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
> nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
> take the excess.

What's SERGRADed?

Bob Moore
Pensacola Class 12-58

John Carrier

January 22nd 07, 02:27 AM

> There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
> turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
> good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
> the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
> tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.

Also missing, a lick of credibility. The "Been there, done that" factor.

R / John

John Weiss[_1_]

January 22nd 07, 03:54 AM

> wrote...
>
> Ah, the "Fulton Sheen Gambit": Speak very softly forcing them to pay
> attention lest they miss some part of the "discussion"!! :-)

Sorry... He swished his cape a couple times too many for me.

He may have been a powerful TV and book presence, but as Bishop of the
Rochester, NY diocese (late 60s) he was an abysmal failure.

Just another example of 'TV is better than reality"...

John Weiss[_1_]

January 22nd 07, 03:57 AM

"Mike Kanze" > wrote...

> Seriously, during the early 1970s the Navy became quite concerned about
> the unintended consequences of SERGRADing so many folks. These concerns
> ranged from pilot quality degradation (like W. Edwards Deming's "worker
> training worker" effect), the leper colony taint of long Training Command
> tenure, and bass-ackward career planning challenges that totally baffled
> Aviation JO detailers in BUPERS.

That must be why they re-instituted the "super-SERGRAD" program in the LATE
70s, where they had guarantees for follow-on assignments...

The Navy's "concern" evaporated as soon as they figured out they FUBARed the
Training Command manning yet again! How many '5-year cycles' do they need
to learn anything at BUPERS?!?

[email protected]

January 22nd 07, 04:32 AM

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:54:31 -0800, "John Weiss"
<jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet> wrote:

> wrote...
>>
>> Ah, the "Fulton Sheen Gambit": Speak very softly forcing them to pay
>> attention lest they miss some part of the "discussion"!! :-)
>
>Sorry... He swished his cape a couple times too many for me.
>
>He may have been a powerful TV and book presence, but as Bishop of the
>Rochester, NY diocese (late 60s) he was an abysmal failure.
>
>Just another example of 'TV is better than reality"...

I was commenting on his ability as an orator.

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

[email protected]

January 22nd 07, 04:48 AM

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:57:52 -0800, "John Weiss"
<jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet> wrote:

>"Mike Kanze" > wrote...
>
>> Seriously, during the early 1970s the Navy became quite concerned about
>> the unintended consequences of SERGRADing so many folks. These concerns
>> ranged from pilot quality degradation (like W. Edwards Deming's "worker
>> training worker" effect), the leper colony taint of long Training Command
>> tenure, and bass-ackward career planning challenges that totally baffled
>> Aviation JO detailers in BUPERS.
>
>That must be why they re-instituted the "super-SERGRAD" program in the LATE
>70s, where they had guarantees for follow-on assignments...
>
>The Navy's "concern" evaporated as soon as they figured out they FUBARed the
>Training Command manning yet again! How many '5-year cycles' do they need
>to learn anything at BUPERS?!?

BUPERS is like the Bourbon Kings of France: they forget nothing and
learn nothing.

And it's not just in detailing. There was a period where I worked in
NLSO Corpus prosecuting court martials and doing admin discharge
boards. It was very frustrating, because there is a principle in
Military Law that the government must follow its own rules. I was
talking to a CDR at the Bureau about the application of a rule and how
the Bureau was disregarding the BUPERS Manual. He then informed me,
in no uncertain terms, that since the Bureau wrote the Manual they did
not have to follow it. As luck would have it that very morning I'd
been handed my ass, sliced and diced, by a Miltary Judge over just
this issue. For the first time, and last time, in my Naval Career I
lost my temper with a senior officer. In informed him, by chapter and
verse, that he was ****ed up as Hogan's Goat and I was really tired of
being reamed by a judge on the record because stooges like himself
thought they walked on water. It went downhill from there. After I
hung up on him I went down to the COs office and turned myself in.
He'd already had a conference with the MJ (who said the chewing out
was nothing personal nor was it a negative reflection on the job I did
as a prosecutor, but as the Trial Counsel I represented the Government
and he had to put the Government's failings on the record). He made
me repeat my characterizations of the CDR and his boss, suggested that
I was probably well advised to watch my tongue, and said he'd take
care of it. I never heard anything more.

I had many other dealings with the Bureau over the years, both a
personal and professional level. Seldom was I impressed.

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

John Carrier

January 22nd 07, 12:57 PM

We hired a well-regarded retired 3 star for a BRAC defense of our TRACOM
base. We were discussing the issue of pilot training numbers and the impact
on the Navy's ability to produce aviators. USAF manages its pilot flow
moderately well. They were transitioning a base for additional training.
When asked why the Navy seemed unable to manage pilot training (either too
few or too many) the 3-star triumphantly announced "The Navy manages year
groups, not pilots" as if that was somehow a good thing.

OBTW, my year group opportunity for command was about 40%. Three years
later there were more commands than aviators in the year group. Some
management.

R / John

> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:57:52 -0800, "John Weiss"
> <jrweiss98155nospamatnospamcomcastdotnospamnet> wrote:
>
>>"Mike Kanze" > wrote...
>>
>>> Seriously, during the early 1970s the Navy became quite concerned about
>>> the unintended consequences of SERGRADing so many folks. These concerns
>>> ranged from pilot quality degradation (like W. Edwards Deming's "worker
>>> training worker" effect), the leper colony taint of long Training
>>> Command
>>> tenure, and bass-ackward career planning challenges that totally baffled
>>> Aviation JO detailers in BUPERS.
>>
>>That must be why they re-instituted the "super-SERGRAD" program in the
>>LATE
>>70s, where they had guarantees for follow-on assignments...
>>
>>The Navy's "concern" evaporated as soon as they figured out they FUBARed
>>the
>>Training Command manning yet again! How many '5-year cycles' do they need
>>to learn anything at BUPERS?!?
>
> BUPERS is like the Bourbon Kings of France: they forget nothing and
> learn nothing.
>
> And it's not just in detailing. There was a period where I worked in
> NLSO Corpus prosecuting court martials and doing admin discharge
> boards. It was very frustrating, because there is a principle in
> Military Law that the government must follow its own rules. I was
> talking to a CDR at the Bureau about the application of a rule and how
> the Bureau was disregarding the BUPERS Manual. He then informed me,
> in no uncertain terms, that since the Bureau wrote the Manual they did
> not have to follow it. As luck would have it that very morning I'd
> been handed my ass, sliced and diced, by a Miltary Judge over just
> this issue. For the first time, and last time, in my Naval Career I
> lost my temper with a senior officer. In informed him, by chapter and
> verse, that he was ****ed up as Hogan's Goat and I was really tired of
> being reamed by a judge on the record because stooges like himself
> thought they walked on water. It went downhill from there. After I
> hung up on him I went down to the COs office and turned myself in.
> He'd already had a conference with the MJ (who said the chewing out
> was nothing personal nor was it a negative reflection on the job I did
> as a prosecutor, but as the Trial Counsel I represented the Government
> and he had to put the Government's failings on the record). He made
> me repeat my characterizations of the CDR and his boss, suggested that
> I was probably well advised to watch my tongue, and said he'd take
> care of it. I never heard anything more.
>
> I had many other dealings with the Bureau over the years, both a
> personal and professional level. Seldom was I impressed.
>
>
> Bill Kambic
> Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
> Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

qui si parla Campagnolo

January 22nd 07, 01:36 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, wrote:
>
> >On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>qui si parla Campagnolo wrote
> >>
> >>> Mike Kanze wrote:
> >>> My entire class was SERGRADed.
> >>>
> >>> When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
> >>> weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
> >>> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
> >>> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
> >>> nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
> >>> take the excess.
> >>
> >>What's SERGRADed?
> >
> >SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
> >instructors.
> >
> That's what we in the junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.
>
> It was a result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilot
> requirements at the end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreement
> was that each major air command would take UPT graduates in proportion
> to the number of line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command with
> 28% of the AF pilots at that time had to take a quarter of the
> graduates.
>
> There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
> turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
> good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
> the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
> tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

I thought it was noise, pain and repetition, no wait, that's for little
kids. I was ususally impressed with the 'plowbacks' in VT-26/5. Most
were very good, but the 'fleet' guys did have something 'extra', even
if it was just a sea story. One of the best in VT-26 was Vidas
Vilkas..Coastie who fenagled his way out of something in the CG to the
USN TraCom..great guy, as memory serves..it WAS 32 years ago.

qui si parla Campagnolo

January 22nd 07, 01:42 PM

Bill Baker wrote:
> On 2007-01-19 08:34:22 -0800, Ed Rasimus > said:
>
> [...]
> > Although the USAF didn't have truly "excess" capability, they could
> > absorb a bit of the load for the Navy. We took one USMC student per
> > class (8 classes per year) per base (10 bases). The Marines went
> > through the full and complete USAF UPT syllabus (T-41/T-37/T-38) and
> > upon graduation were awarded USAF pilot wings.
>
> [...]
>
> > A number of these Navy pilot candidates were given the opportunity for
> > inter-service transfers and were picked up by the USAF where they
> > completed UPT.
>
> Given the numbers you say the Navy cut, at least some of the pilots
> given the chop must have been Marine sticks, right Ed? Which means,
> presumably, that before UPT they would have gotten at least a good dose
> of the "Every Marine is a rifleman!" USMC ethos in Corps OCS, if not
> four years of it in NROTC. Must have been an interesting for these
> guys to find themselves abruptly in the Air Force. I'm imagining a
> freshly-winged butter bar in USAF dress blues except with a high 'n
> tight, blood stripe on the trousers and a boarding sabre on his hip.

Did these guys even have a blue uniform? I had an exchange tour with
the USAF, as an IP, 61st TFS/13th TFTS and even the COC was in zoom
bags. I didn't put my 'uniform' on for 2 years, even when I was in
trouble for wearing brown boots and a leather flight jacket.
>
>
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qui si parla Campagnolo

January 22nd 07, 01:43 PM

Bill Baker wrote:
> On 2007-01-19 08:34:22 -0800, Ed Rasimus > said:
>
> [...]
> > Although the USAF didn't have truly "excess" capability, they could
> > absorb a bit of the load for the Navy. We took one USMC student per
> > class (8 classes per year) per base (10 bases). The Marines went
> > through the full and complete USAF UPT syllabus (T-41/T-37/T-38) and
> > upon graduation were awarded USAF pilot wings.
>
> [...]
>
> > A number of these Navy pilot candidates were given the opportunity for
> > inter-service transfers and were picked up by the USAF where they
> > completed UPT.
>
> Given the numbers you say the Navy cut, at least some of the pilots
> given the chop must have been Marine sticks, right Ed? Which means,
> presumably, that before UPT they would have gotten at least a good dose
> of the "Every Marine is a rifleman!" USMC ethos in Corps OCS, if not
> four years of it in NROTC. Must have been an interesting for these
> guys to find themselves abruptly in the Air Force. I'm imagining a
> freshly-winged butter bar in USAF dress blues except with a high 'n
> tight, blood stripe on the trousers and a boarding sabre on his hip.

Did these guys even have a blue uniform? I had an exchange tour with
the USAF, as an IP, 61st TFS/13th TFTS and even the COC(change of
Command-Papy Fero for the one and only Mike Ryan-future COS of the
USAF) was in zoom bags. I didn't put my 'uniform' on for 2 years, even
when I was in trouble for wearing brown boots and a leather flight
jacket.
>
>
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Mike Kanze

January 22nd 07, 05:57 PM

Vidas Vilkas and I went through Preflight School together in 1969. Excellent representative of the fine folks in CG aviation.

However, Vidas was very tight-lipped about his family since many were still living in behind the Iron Curtain (Lithuania?) then.

--
Mike Kanze

"Press '1' if you speak English, press '2' to disconnect until you can."

- Anonymous

"qui si parla Campagnolo" > wrote in message oups.com...

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, wrote:
>
> >On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>qui si parla Campagnolo wrote
> >>
> >>> Mike Kanze wrote:
> >>> My entire class was SERGRADed.
> >>>
> >>> When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
> >>> weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
> >>> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
> >>> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
> >>> nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
> >>> take the excess.
> >>
> >>What's SERGRADed?
> >
> >SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
> >instructors.
> >
> That's what we in the junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.
>
> It was a result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilot
> requirements at the end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreement
> was that each major air command would take UPT graduates in proportion
> to the number of line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command with
> 28% of the AF pilots at that time had to take a quarter of the
> graduates.
>
> There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
> turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
> good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
> the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
> tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

I thought it was noise, pain and repetition, no wait, that's for little
kids. I was ususally impressed with the 'plowbacks' in VT-26/5. Most
were very good, but the 'fleet' guys did have something 'extra', even
if it was just a sea story. One of the best in VT-26 was Vidas
Vilkas..Coastie who fenagled his way out of something in the CG to the
USN TraCom..great guy, as memory serves..it WAS 32 years ago.

qui si parla Campagnolo

January 22nd 07, 11:06 PM

Mike Kanze wrote:
> Vidas Vilkas and I went through Preflight School together in 1969. Excellent representative of the fine folks in CG aviation.
>
> However, Vidas was very tight-lipped about his family since many were still living in behind the Iron Curtain (Lithuania?) then.
>
> --
> Mike Kanze

Shows ya how small USN aviation really is. Vidas was just so happy to
be at VT-26, used to stand around with his gsuit on, all the time,
trying to scarf up extra hops. Story went that after winging, asked a
bunch of them where they wanted to be 'plowed-back', and he kinda just
stayed with the USN bunch and was included.
>
> "Press '1' if you speak English, press '2' to disconnect until you can."
>
> - Anonymous
>
> "qui si parla Campagnolo" > wrote in message oups.com...
>
> Ed Rasimus wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, wrote:
> >
> > >On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore >
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >>qui si parla Campagnolo wrote
> > >>
> > >>> Mike Kanze wrote:
> > >>> My entire class was SERGRADed.
> > >>>
> > >>> When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
> > >>> weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
> > >>> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
> > >>> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
> > >>> nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
> > >>> take the excess.
> > >>
> > >>What's SERGRADed?
> > >
> > >SElective Retained GRADuate. Newly winged guys plowed back as
> > >instructors.
> > >
> > That's what we in the junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.
> >
> > It was a result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilot
> > requirements at the end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreement
> > was that each major air command would take UPT graduates in proportion
> > to the number of line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command with
> > 28% of the AF pilots at that time had to take a quarter of the
> > graduates.
> >
> > There was a lot of emotional argument about quality, but it really
> > turns out that the job is so rote that a brand-new grad can be pretty
> > good at it. The only thing missing is the intimidation factor that is
> > the basic stock-in-trade of the military flight instructor. The three
> > tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and ridicule.
> >
> >
> > Ed Rasimus
> > Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> > "When Thunder Rolled"
> > www.thunderchief.org
> > www.thundertales.blogspot.com
>
> I thought it was noise, pain and repetition, no wait, that's for little
> kids. I was ususally impressed with the 'plowbacks' in VT-26/5. Most
> were very good, but the 'fleet' guys did have something 'extra', even
> if it was just a sea story. One of the best in VT-26 was Vidas
> Vilkas..Coastie who fenagled his way out of something in the CG to the
> USN TraCom..great guy, as memory serves..it WAS 32 years ago.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C73E0B.B5E589F0
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> X-Google-AttachSize: 4306
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=GENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
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> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Vidas Vilkas and I went through Preflight School together
> in 1969. Excellent representative of the fine folks in CG aviation.
> </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>However, Vidas was very tight-lipped about his family
> since many were still living in behind the Iron Curtain (Lithuania?) then.
> </FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial><BR>-- <BR>Mike Kanze</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>"Press '1' if you speak English, press '2' to disconnect
> until you can." </FONT></DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>- Anonymous<BR></FONT></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE
> style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV>"qui si parla Campagnolo" <<A
> </A>> wrote in message
> <A
> oups.com</A>...</DIV><BR>Ed
> Rasimus wrote:<BR>> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:54:10 -0500, <A
> </A> wrote:<BR>><BR>>
> >On 21 Jan 2007 15:27:39 GMT, Bob Moore <<A
> </A>><BR>>
> >wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> >>qui si parla Campagnolo wrote<BR>>
> >><BR>> >>> Mike Kanze wrote:<BR>> >>> My entire
> class was SERGRADed.<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> When I got my
> wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2<BR>> >>>
> weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for<BR>>
> >>> a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other
> Mike<BR>> >>> Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a
> few A-4..Not enough<BR>> >>> nuggets to fill all the rquirments
> but they wouldn't let any Sergrads<BR>> >>> take the
> excess.<BR>> >><BR>> >>What's SERGRADed?<BR>>
> ><BR>> >SElective Retained GRADuate.  Newly winged guys plowed
> back as<BR>> >instructors.<BR>> ><BR>> That's what we in the
> junior service call a FAIP--First Assignment IP.<BR>><BR>> It was a
> result of the rather extensive draw-down of pilot<BR>> requirements at the
> end of the SEA conflict. In USAF, the agreement<BR>> was that each major
> air command would take UPT graduates in proportion<BR>> to the number of
> line pilot slots they had. So, Training Command with<BR>> 28% of the AF
> pilots at that time had to take a quarter of the<BR>>
> graduates.<BR>><BR>> There was  a lot of emotional argument about
> quality, but it really<BR>> turns out that the job is so rote that a
> brand-new grad can be pretty<BR>> good at it. The only thing missing is the
> intimidation factor that is<BR>> the basic stock-in-trade of the military
> flight instructor. The three<BR>> tool of the IP: fear, sarcasm and
> ridicule.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Ed Rasimus<BR>> Fighter Pilot
> (USAF-Ret)<BR>> "When Thunder Rolled"<BR>>  <A
> href="http://www.thunderchief.org">www.thunderchief.org</A><BR>>  <A
> href="http://www.thundertales.blogspot.com">www.thundertales.blogspot.com</A><BR><BR>I
> thought it was noise, pain and repetition, no wait, that's for little<BR>kids.
> I was ususally impressed with the 'plowbacks' in VT-26/5. Most<BR>were very
> good, but the 'fleet' guys did have something 'extra', even<BR>if it was just
> a sea story. One of the best in VT-26 was Vidas<BR>Vilkas..Coastie who
> fenagled his way out of something in the CG to the<BR>USN TraCom..great guy,
> as memory serves..it WAS 32 years ago.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C73E0B.B5E589F0--

John[_8_]

January 23rd 07, 02:48 AM

On 21 Jan 2007 06:40:03 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
> wrote:

>When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
>weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
>a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
>Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
>nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
>take the excess.

I got my wings in August of 74 out of VT-24 also. Who else was in your
group? Not likely we ever flew any sorties together as you were just
far enough ahead of us. Jim Collins was my primary IP in VT-24. I had
Len Nicholson (USMC Captain) in VT-26. Gene Teter was CO of VT-24 then
and I crossed paths with him a number of times over the years. Got
qute a few former Bobcats here at the airline too. You may remember Al
Ramos - one of our senior captains now.

I got SERGRADed to VT-24 myself. There were 9 of us who got winged on
the end of August. 3 got SERGRAD (myself, my best friend Craig
Henderson (VT-23 Kingsville) and one to Meridian), 1 each A-7 and A-4
fleet seats, 3 got VC and one went to a desk and never got a cockpit
again. All of us were disappointed because just a few months earlier
(as in your case) there seemed to be plenty of orders and few
SERGRADS. However, the hump from the 'Nam push caught up to us. And it
got worse - a couple of classes after us all the orders were SERGRAD
or desks (just about 50/50).

In spite of the purge earlier, there were still too many in the
pipeline. That, combined with the transitions that were going on. The
S-3 was not yet on-line, the A-4 was giving way to the A-7 and the F-4
to the F-14. As squadrons came back from Nam they got decommissioned
or lost their aircraft while the crews went through transition. That
meant not enough seats for the guys coming out of training. We had
guys that got S-3 orders, but had to come back for two weeks of flying
every 6 months until the RAG stood up and actually had jets for them
to fly.

qui si parla Campagnolo

January 23rd 07, 01:51 PM

John wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2007 06:40:03 -0800, "qui si parla Campagnolo"
> > wrote:
>
> >When I got my wings along with about 15 others in Beeville(first 2
> >weeks of June, 1974) we were the first nuggets to get fleet orders for
> >a long time(maybe a year or more?) 2 F-4 seats( I got one-other Mike
> >Price), some A-7 seats, couple of A-6..more than a few A-4..Not enough
> >nuggets to fill all the rquirments but they wouldn't let any Sergrads
> >take the excess.
>
> I got my wings in August of 74 out of VT-24 also. Who else was in your
> group? Not likely we ever flew any sorties together as you were just
> far enough ahead of us. Jim Collins was my primary IP in VT-24. I had
> Len Nicholson (USMC Captain) in VT-26. Gene Teter was CO of VT-24 then
> and I crossed paths with him a number of times over the years. Got
> qute a few former Bobcats here at the airline too. You may remember Al
> Ramos - one of our senior captains now.

I was in VT-25. I don't remember a lot of the IPs, Dave McNally, Roger
Hoos, some really good USMC major, a gent fro OV-10s. Wigs Ludwig was a
TraWing guy, another future boss of mine in VF-31 and VX-4. Remains a
mystery why all the fleet seats for our bunch, fewer before and after.
When in the F-4 RAG, VF-101, Oceana, we were in a very small
class..only 2 nuggests, some F-8 transition guys(Red Best was one of
the F-8 transition guys, another of my futrure bosses).
>
> I got SERGRADed to VT-24 myself. There were 9 of us who got winged on
> the end of August. 3 got SERGRAD (myself, my best friend Craig
> Henderson (VT-23 Kingsville) and one to Meridian), 1 each A-7 and A-4
> fleet seats, 3 got VC and one went to a desk and never got a cockpit
> again. All of us were disappointed because just a few months earlier
> (as in your case) there seemed to be plenty of orders and few
> SERGRADS. However, the hump from the 'Nam push caught up to us. And it
> got worse - a couple of classes after us all the orders were SERGRAD
> or desks (just about 50/50).
>
> In spite of the purge earlier, there were still too many in the
> pipeline. That, combined with the transitions that were going on. The
> S-3 was not yet on-line, the A-4 was giving way to the A-7 and the F-4
> to the F-14. As squadrons came back from Nam they got decommissioned
> or lost their aircraft while the crews went through transition. That
> meant not enough seats for the guys coming out of training. We had
> guys that got S-3 orders, but had to come back for two weeks of flying
> every 6 months until the RAG stood up and actually had jets for them
> to fly.