A slap in the face to Ohio GA, and a measure of stupidity by Ohio Lawmakers

[Tony]

This was taken from the AOPA website.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ohio anti-terrorism effort slap in face to aircraft owners


Ohio aircraft owners have been singled out by the state to sign a
declaration with their annual aircraft registration renewal that they
are not involved in terrorist activity. They are the only license
holders under the state's Department of Transportation required to do
this.

AOPA and aircraft owners are extremely displeased at this
discrimination. The association, on behalf of members, has requested
that the state remove this requirement.

"Frankly, it is offensive to Ohio's pilot population to suggest that
they are more suspect than people who own boats, trucks, or
automobiles," wrote Greg Pecoraro, AOPA vice president of regional
affairs, in a letter to the state's department of public safety. Ohio
singles out pilots...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, now assume you're a bad guy living in Ohio. What are you going to
do, say "Oh s**t, now I have to move because I can't sign this paper"?

Here's the best part -- these lawmakers were elected and someone
convinced .a majority of them this was a good idea.

There is no cure for stupidity.






(January 16)

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article om>,
"Tony" > wrote:

> This was taken from the AOPA website.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Ohio anti-terrorism effort slap in face to aircraft owners
>
>
> Ohio aircraft owners have been singled out by the state to sign a
> declaration with their annual aircraft registration renewal that they
> are not involved in terrorist activity. They are the only license
> holders under the state's Department of Transportation required to do
> this.
>
> AOPA and aircraft owners are extremely displeased at this
> discrimination. The association, on behalf of members, has requested
> that the state remove this requirement.
>
> "Frankly, it is offensive to Ohio's pilot population to suggest that
> they are more suspect than people who own boats, trucks, or
> automobiles," wrote Greg Pecoraro, AOPA vice president of regional
> affairs, in a letter to the state's department of public safety. Ohio
> singles out pilots...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
>
> OK, now assume you're a bad guy living in Ohio. What are you going to
> do, say "Oh s**t, now I have to move because I can't sign this paper"?
>
> Here's the best part -- these lawmakers were elected and someone
> convinced .a majority of them this was a good idea.
>
> There is no cure for stupidity.

How about making THEM sign a paper stating that THEY are not involvrd in
terrorism?

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Tony > posted:
>
> OK, now assume you're a bad guy living in Ohio. What are you going to
> do, say "Oh s**t, now I have to move because I can't sign this paper"?
>
> Here's the best part -- these lawmakers were elected and someone
> convinced .a majority of them this was a good idea.
>
> There is no cure for stupidity.
>
We're in a big transition here in Ohio, where many Republicans have been
given the boot and the first Democratic Governor in a very long time has
been elected. Last month, the outgoing legislators have put a lot of B.S.
into law, much of it a lot worse than this silliness. Nobody could believe
that this would be an effective move.

Neil

[Tony]

This would have made the Wright brothers move!!

On Jan 18, 4:43 pm, "Neil Gould" > wrote:
> Recently, Tony > posted:
>
> > OK, now assume you're a bad guy living in Ohio. What are you going to
> > do, say "Oh s**t, now I have to move because I can't sign this paper"?
>
> > Here's the best part -- these lawmakers were elected and someone
> > convinced .a majority of them this was a good idea.
>
> > There is no cure for stupidity.We're in a big transition here in Ohio, where many Republicans have been
> given the boot and the first Democratic Governor in a very long time has
> been elected. Last month, the outgoing legislators have put a lot of B.S.
> into law, much of it a lot worse than this silliness. Nobody could believe
> that this would be an effective move.
>
> Neil

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> This was taken from the AOPA website.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ohio anti-terrorism effort slap in face to aircraft owners
>
>
> Ohio aircraft owners have been singled out by the state to sign a
> declaration with their annual aircraft registration renewal that they
> are not involved in terrorist activity. They are the only license
> holders under the state's Department of Transportation required to do
> this.
>
> AOPA and aircraft owners are extremely displeased at this
> discrimination. The association, on behalf of members, has requested
> that the state remove this requirement.
>
> "Frankly, it is offensive to Ohio's pilot population to suggest that
> they are more suspect than people who own boats, trucks, or
> automobiles," wrote Greg Pecoraro, AOPA vice president of regional
> affairs, in a letter to the state's department of public safety. Ohio
> singles out pilots...
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OK, now assume you're a bad guy living in Ohio. What are you going to
> do, say "Oh s**t, now I have to move because I can't sign this paper"?
>
> Here's the best part -- these lawmakers were elected and someone
> convinced .a majority of them this was a good idea.
>
> There is no cure for stupidity.

And in this context, it might be well to point out that one should
never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple
stupidity.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> This would have made the Wright brothers move!!

It might have made bowels move as well.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Beckman]

"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> This would have made the Wright brothers move!!


Perhaps all Ohio aviation needs to take a one day GA-wide "Safety Stand
Down" to show their lawmakers which activities fall under the realm of GA?

Unrealistic, I know, but...

Jay B

[Flatulence]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:
>
>And in this context, it might be well to point out that one should
>never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple
>stupidity.
>

We don't think you're malicious.

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
"Tony" > wrote:

> There is no cure for stupidity.

yep - just: "Here's your sign"....

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[tony roberts]

> This was taken from the AOPA website.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Ohio anti-terrorism effort slap in face to aircraft owners
>
>
> Ohio aircraft owners have been singled out by the state to sign a
> declaration with their annual aircraft registration renewal that they
> are not involved in terrorist activity. They are the only license
> holders under the state's Department of Transportation required to do
> this.

So if I read this correctly, the D.O.T. actually believes that their
penalties for falsifying information on a registration form are such
that any pilot who actually is involved in terrorism will feel obligated
to advise them of that fact.

And I thought that OUR beaurocrats were dumb!
--


Tony Roberts

[news.east.cox.net]

I guess it's stupidity like this that makes the AOPA dues worthwhile.


>
> There is no cure for stupidity.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (January 16)
>

[Tom McQuinn]

Tony wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OK, now assume you're a bad guy living in Ohio. What are you going to
> do, say "Oh s**t, now I have to move because I can't sign this paper"?
>
> Here's the best part -- these lawmakers were elected and someone
> convinced .a majority of them this was a good idea.
>
> There is no cure for stupidity.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (January 16)
>

If anyone wants a good laugh, page 2 here is the actual document:

http://www.homelandsecurity.ohio.gov/DMA_Terrorist/HLS_0036_Licenses.pdf

Tom (former terrorist scared straight)

[Tony]

That form has got to make you, and all people living in Ohio, feel much
more secure.

It's too bad, however, that airplanes can fly to Ohio from other
places, and those owners will not have signed the form. Maybe, in the
interest of keeping Ohio safe, all airplanes coming from the east
should have to land in Pittsburgh so the PIC can sign off on the form.
It would be like clearing customs.

It should also apply to overflights -- if you're over Ohio without
having signed the form you may be a threat so land and sign off on it.

The bad guys are honorable, aren't they? They wouldn't sign off on
something like this and then use the airplane for bad things, would
they?

Or, maybe I'm just not smart enough to know how this is going to be
helpful.

Yeah, that's it. Better tear up that Mesa stuff.




On Jan 20, 11:34 am, Tom McQuinn > wrote:
> Tony wrote:
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*----
>
> > OK, now assume you're a bad guy living in Ohio. What are you going to
> > do, say "Oh s**t, now I have to move because I can't sign this paper"?
>
> > Here's the best part -- these lawmakers were elected and someone
> > convinced .a majority of them this was a good idea.
>
> > There is no cure for stupidity.
>
> > (January 16)If anyone wants a good laugh, page 2 here is the actual document:
>
> http://www.homelandsecurity.ohio.gov/DMA_Terrorist/HLS_0036_Licenses.pdf
>
> Tom (former terrorist scared straight)- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

[C J Campbell]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:13:32 -0800, Tony wrote
(in article om>):

> This was taken from the AOPA website.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> --
> Ohio anti-terrorism effort slap in face to aircraft owners
>
>
> Ohio aircraft owners have been singled out by the state to sign a
> declaration with their annual aircraft registration renewal that they
> are not involved in terrorist activity. They are the only license
> holders under the state's Department of Transportation required to do
> this.
>
> AOPA and aircraft owners are extremely displeased at this
> discrimination. The association, on behalf of members, has requested
> that the state remove this requirement.
>
> "Frankly, it is offensive to Ohio's pilot population to suggest that
> they are more suspect than people who own boats, trucks, or
> automobiles," wrote Greg Pecoraro, AOPA vice president of regional
> affairs, in a letter to the state's department of public safety. Ohio
> singles out pilots...
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> -
>
> OK, now assume you're a bad guy living in Ohio. What are you going to
> do, say "Oh s**t, now I have to move because I can't sign this paper"?
>
> Here's the best part -- these lawmakers were elected and someone
> convinced .a majority of them this was a good idea.
>
> There is no cure for stupidity.

Nope. Definitely one of the most inane laws ever passed. But the purpose of
this law is not to fight terrorism. It is to embarrass Democrats. The
outgoing party knew full well that this law would probably be repealed, so
now they can say during the next election that the Democrats repealed an
'anti-terrorism' measure, without saying exactly what that measure was.



--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:34:37 -0500, Tom McQuinn > wrote
in >:

>
>If anyone wants a good laugh, page 2 here is the actual document:
>
>http://www.homelandsecurity.ohio.gov/DMA_Terrorist/HLS_0036_Licenses.pdf

>HLS 0036 2/06 Page 2 of 2
>Ohio Department of Public Safety
>DIVISION OF HOMELAND SECURITY
>http://www.homelandsecurity.ohio.gov
>STATE ISSUED LICENSE
>In accordance with section 2909.32 (2)(a) of the Ohio Revised Code
>DECLARATION REGARDING MATERIAL ASSISTANCE/NONASSISTANCE TO A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION
>This form serves as a declaration of the provision of material assistance to a terrorist organization or organization that supports terrorism as
>identified by the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List (see the Ohio Homeland Security Division Web site for a reference copy of
>the Terrorist Exclusion List).
>Any answer of “yes” to any question, or the failure to answer “no” to any question on this declaration shall serve as a disclosure that material
>assistance to an organization identified on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List has been provided. Failure to disclose the
>provision of material assistance to such an organization or knowingly making false statements regarding material assistance to such an
>organization is a felony of the fifth degree.
>For the purposes of this declaration, “material support or resources” means currency, payment instruments, other financial securities, funds,
>transfer of funds, and financial services that are in excess of one hundred dollars, as well as communications, lodging, training, safe houses,
>false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel, transportation,
>and other physical assets, except medicine or religious materials.
>LAST NAME FIRST NAME MI
>HOME ADDRESS
>CITY STATE ZIP COUNTY
>HOME PHONE
>( )
>WORK PHONE
>( )
>COMPLETE THIS SECTION ONLY IF YOU ARE A COMPANY, BUSINESS OR ORGANIZATION
>BUSINESS/ORGANIZATION NAME
>PHONE
>( )
>BUSINESS ADDRESS
>CITY
>STATE ZIP COUNTY
>DECLARATION
>In accordance with section 2909.32 (A)(2)(b) of the Ohio Revised Code
>For each question, indicate either “yes,” or “no” in the space provided. Responses must be truthful to the best of your knowledge.
>1. Are you a member of an organization on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List? Yes No
>2. Have you used any position of prominence you have with any country to persuade others to support an organization on
>the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List? Yes No
>3. Have you knowingly solicited funds or other things of value for an organization on the U.S. Department of State
>Terrorist Exclusion List? Yes No
>4. Have you solicited any individual for membership in an organization on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist
>Exclusion List? Yes No
>5. Have you committed an act that you know, or reasonably should have known, affords "material support or resources" to
>an organization on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List? Yes No
>6. Have you hired or compensated a person you knew to be a member of an organization on the U.S. Department of State
>Terrorist Exclusion List, or a person you knew to be engaged in planning, assisting, or carrying out an act of terrorism? Yes No
>In the event of a denial of licensure due to a positive indication that material assistance has been provided to a terrorist organization, or an
>organization that supports terrorism as identified by the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List, a review of the denial may be
>requested. The request must be sent to the Ohio Department of Public Safety’s Division of Homeland Security. The request forms and
>instructions for filing can be found on the Ohio Homeland Security Division website.
>CERTIFICATION
>I hereby certify that the answers I have made to all of the questions on this declaration are true to the best of my knowledge. I understand that
>if this declaration is not completed in its entirety, it will not be processed and I will be automatically disqualified. I understand that I am
>responsible for the correctness of this declaration. I understand that failure to disclose the provision of material assistance to an organization
>identified on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List, or knowingly making false statements regarding material assistance to such
>an organization is a felony of the fifth degree. I understand that any answer of “yes” to any question, or the failure to answer “no” to any
>question on this declaration shall serve as a disclosure that material assistance to an organization identified on the U.S. Department of State
>Terrorist Exclusion List has been provided by myself or my organization. If I am signing this on behalf of a company, business or organization, I
>hereby acknowledge that I have the authority to make this certification on behalf of the company, business or organization referenced above.
>X
>APPLICANT SIGNATURE DATE


So, how does this declaration prevent the registered (terrorist) owner
from transferring ownership to a dummy corporation that has no ties to
those listed on U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List?



http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2002/15222.htm
Fact Sheet
Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism
Washington, DC
November 15, 2002


Terrorist Exclusion List


Section 411 of the USA PATRIOT ACT of 2001 (8 U.S.C. § 1182)
authorized the Secretary of State, in consultation with or upon the
request of the Attorney General, to designate terrorist organizations
for immigration purposes. This authority is known as the “Terrorist
Exclusion List (TEL)” authority. A TEL designation bolsters homeland
security efforts by facilitating the USG’s ability to exclude aliens
associated with entities on the TEL from entering the United States.

Designation Criteria

An organization can be placed on the TEL if the Secretary of State
finds that the organization:

commits or incites to commit, under circumstances indicating an
intention to cause death or serious bodily injury, a terrorist
activity;
prepares or plans a terrorist activity;
gathers information on potential targets for terrorist activity; or
provides material support to further terrorist activity.
Under the statute, “terrorist activity” means any activity that is
unlawful under U.S. law or the laws of the place where it was
committed and involves: hijacking or sabotage of an aircraft, vessel,
vehicle or other conveyance; hostage taking; a violent attack on an
internationally protected person; assassination; or the use of any
biological agent, chemical agent, nuclear weapon or device, or
explosive, firearm, or other weapon or dangerous device (other than
for mere personal monetary gain), with intent to endanger, directly or
indirectly, the safety of one or more individuals or to cause
substantial damage to property. The definition also captures any
threat, attempt, or conspiracy to do any of these activities.
Designation Process

The Secretary of State is authorized to designate groups as TEL
organizations in consultation with, or upon the request of the
Attorney General. Once an organization of concern is identified, or a
request is received from the Attorney General to designate a
particular organization, the State Department works closely with the
Department of Justice and the intelligence community to prepare a
detailed “administrative record,” which is a compilation of
information, typically including both classified and open sources
information, demonstrating that the statutory criteria for designation
have been satisfied. Once completed, the administrative record is sent
to the Secretary of State who decides whether to designate the
organization. Notices of designations are published in the Federal
Register.

Effects of Designation

Legal Ramifications

Individual aliens providing support to or associated with
TEL-designated organizations may be found “inadmissable” [sic] to the
U.S., i.e., such aliens may be prevented from entering the U.S. or, if
already in U.S. territory, may in certain circumstances be deported.
Examples of activity that may render an alien inadmissible as a result
of an organization’s TEL designation include:

membership in a TEL-designated organization;
use of the alien’s position of prominence within any country to
persuade others to support an organization on the TEL list;
solicitation of funds or other things of value for an organization on
the TEL list;
solicitation of any individual for membership in an organization on
the TEL list; and
commission of an act that the alien knows, or reasonably should have
known, affords material support, including a safe house,
transportation, communications, funds, transfer of funds or other
material for financial benefit, false documentation or identification,
weapons (including chemical, biological, or radiological weapons),
explosives, or training to an organization on the TEL list.
(It should be noted that individual aliens may also found inadmissible
on the basis of other types of terrorist activity unrelated to
TEL-designated organizations; see 8 U.S.C. §1182(a)(3)(B).)
Other Effects

Deters donation or contributions to named organizations.
Heightens public awareness and knowledge of terrorist organizations.
Alerts other governments to U.S. concerns about organizations engaged
in terrorist activities.
Stigmatizes and isolates designated terrorist organizations.
Background On December 5th, 2001 Secretary of State Colin Powell, in
consultation with the Attorney General designated the following
organizations, thereby placing them on the Terrorist Exclusion List:

Terrorist Exclusion List Designees

Al-Ittihad al-Islami (AIAI)
Al-Wafa al-Igatha al-Islamia
Asbat al-Ansar
Darkazanli Company
Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)
Islamic Army of Aden
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Makhtab al-Khidmat
Al-Hamati Sweets Bakeries
Al-Nur Honey Center
Al-Rashid Trust
Al-Shifa Honey Press for Industry and Commerce
Jaysh-e-Mohammed
Jamiat al-Ta’awun al-Islamiyya
Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB)
Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR) -- AKA: Interahamwe, Former
Armed Forces (EX-FAR)
First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO) -- AKA: Grupo de
Resistencia Anti-Fascista Premero De Octubre
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) -- AKA: Army of the Righteous
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) – AKA: Continuity Army Council
Orange Volunteers (OV)
Red Hand Defenders (RHD)
New People’s Army (NPA)
People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD)
Revolutionary United Front (RUF)
Al-Ma’unah
Jayshullah
Black Star
Anarchist Faction for Overthrow
Red Brigades-Combatant Communist Party (BR-PCC)
Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus
Turkish Hizballah
Jerusalem Warriors
Islamic Renewal and Reform Organization
The Pentagon Gang
Japanese Red Army (JRA)
Jamiat ul-Mujahideen (JUM)
Harakat ul Jihad i Islami (HUJI)
The Allied Democratic Forces (ADF)
The Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA)
Designated on February 18, 2003
Al Taqwa Trade, Property and Industry Company Ltd. (f.k.a. Al Taqwa
Trade, Property and Industry; f.k.a. Al Taqwa Trade, Property and
Industry Establishment; f.k.a. Himmat Establishment)
Bank Al Taqwa Ltd. (a.k.a. Al Taqwa Bank; a.k.a. Bank Al Taqwa)
Nada Management Organization (f.k.a. Al Taqwa Management Organization
SA)
Youssef M. Nada & Co. Gesellschaft M.B.H.
Ummah Tameer E-Nau (UTN) (a.k.a. Foundation for Construction; a.k.a.
Nation Building; a.k.a. Reconstruction Foundation; a.k.a.
Reconstruction of the Islamic Community; a.k.a. Reconstruction of the
Muslim Ummah; a.k.a. Ummah Tameer I-Nau; a.k.a. Ummah Tamir E-Nau;
a.k.a. Ummah Tamir I-Nau; a.k.a. Ummat Tamir E-Nau; a.k.a. Ummat
Tamir-I-Pau)
Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)
Ulster Defense Association (a.k.a. Ulster Freedom Fighters)
Afghan Support Committee (a.k.a. Ahya ul Turas; a.k.a. Jamiat
Ayat-ur-Rhas al Islamia; a.k.a. Jamiat Ihya ul Turath al Islamia;
a.k.a. Lajnat el Masa Eidatul Afghania)
Revival of Islamic Heritage Society (Pakistan and Afghanistan offices
-- Kuwait office not designated) (a.k.a. Jamia Ihya ul Turath; a.k.a.
Jamiat Ihia Al- Turath Al-Islamiya; a.k.a. Revival of Islamic Society
Heritage on the African Continent)

[Mxsmanic]

There's something I don't understand about all this. Why is the State
of Ohio involved in aircraft registrations to begin with? I thought
aircraft were registered with the FAA, at the national level (?).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:55:15 -0800, C J Campbell
> wrote in
>:

>Definitely one of the most inane laws ever passed. But the purpose of
>this law is not to fight terrorism. It is to embarrass Democrats. The
>outgoing party knew full well that this law would probably be repealed, so
>now they can say during the next election that the Democrats repealed an
>'anti-terrorism' measure, without saying exactly what that measure was.

Perhaps.

But why isn't the law designed to cause aircraft owners to perjure
themselves by failing to declare there affiliation with listed
terrorist organizations, so that they can be prosecuted? I doubt that
the Constitution would permit prosecuting people for merely being
members of the listed terrorist organizations alone.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:

> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:55:15 -0800, C J Campbell
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>> Definitely one of the most inane laws ever passed. But the purpose of
>> this law is not to fight terrorism. It is to embarrass Democrats. The
>> outgoing party knew full well that this law would probably be
>> repealed, so now they can say during the next election that the
>> Democrats repealed an 'anti-terrorism' measure, without saying
>> exactly what that measure was.
>
> Perhaps.
>
> But why isn't the law designed to cause aircraft owners to perjure
> themselves by failing to declare there affiliation with listed
> terrorist organizations, so that they can be prosecuted? I doubt that
> the Constitution would permit prosecuting people for merely being
> members of the listed terrorist organizations alone.
>
You are talking about a State that just recently deported an Imam who, on
his application for citizenship didn't declare his affiliations with a
group that *wasn't* on a terrorist watch list at the time. As if that
wasn't bad enough, instead of winding up in the Palestinian territories to
where he was deported, he is being detained by Isreal, where he was
delivered. So, yes, Ohio prosecutes people for far less than merely being
members of listed terrorist organizations.

On a lesser note, this State also increased the licensing tax on GA planes
to the same amount as commercial aircraft. They do these things to pilots
because there aren't enough of us to create a political problem for them.

I agree with C J on the motivations behind this law, and the only
practical benefit to its existance.

Neil

[Tony]

pilot's tickets are national, airplanes are personal property, like
cars, and are taxed at the state level.

On Jan 20, 1:28 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> There's something I don't understand about all this. Why is the State
> of Ohio involved in aircraft registrations to begin with? I thought
> aircraft were registered with the FAA, at the national level (?).
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 20:35:49 GMT, "Neil Gould"
> wrote in
>:

>Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:55:15 -0800, C J Campbell
>> > wrote in
>> >:
>>
>>> Definitely one of the most inane laws ever passed. But the purpose of
>>> this law is not to fight terrorism. It is to embarrass Democrats. The
>>> outgoing party knew full well that this law would probably be
>>> repealed, so now they can say during the next election that the
>>> Democrats repealed an 'anti-terrorism' measure, without saying
>>> exactly what that measure was.
>>
>> Perhaps.
>>
>> But why isn't the law designed to cause aircraft owners to perjure
>> themselves by failing to declare there affiliation with listed
>> terrorist organizations, so that they can be prosecuted? I doubt that
>> the Constitution would permit prosecuting people for merely being
>> members of the listed terrorist organizations alone.
>>
>You are talking about a State that just recently deported an Imam who, on
>his application for citizenship didn't declare his affiliations with a
>group that *wasn't* on a terrorist watch list at the time.

On what grounds did the state of Ohio manage to do that?

I was thinking, that the law may be intended to be used similarly to
the way Martha Stewart was found guilty of lying to federal
prosecutes. They didn't find her guilty of SEC violations, IIRC.

>As if that
>wasn't bad enough, instead of winding up in the Palestinian territories to
>where he was deported, he is being detained by Isreal, where he was
>delivered.

How did that happen?

>So, yes, Ohio prosecutes people for far less than merely being
>members of listed terrorist organizations.

I don't think it's a crime to be a member of a listed terrorist
organization, is it? At least, pre Patriot Act, I doubt it was.

>On a lesser note, this State also increased the licensing tax on GA planes
>to the same amount as commercial aircraft.

Did that change in rate result in an increase in licensing fees for
the typical Cessna 172 owners? If so, by about how much?

>They do these things to pilots
>because there aren't enough of us to create a political problem for them.

They get away with it, because people would rather pay than defend
their rights, just like traffic citations. We only have ourselves to
blame if we make ourselves easy targets for injustice. Plato said it
a long time ago:

"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to
be ruled by evil men." -- Plato

>I agree with C J on the motivations behind this law, and the only
>practical benefit to its existance.
>

I have no knowledge of Ohio state politics. If you and Christopher
are correct, it is a sad comment on those governing Ohio.

All that aside, because the new Ohio law fails to apply similar
requirements to the other vehicles it licenses (boats, automobiles,
....), it smacks of selective enforcement, and may possible be
challenged on that ground:
http://www.moralityinmedia.org/nolc/olrChapters/selectiveEnforcement.htm

[locdrib]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 20:35:49 GMT, "Neil Gould"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:
>>
>>> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:55:15 -0800, C J Campbell
>>> > wrote in
>>> >:
>>>
>>>> Definitely one of the most inane laws ever passed. But the purpose of
>>>> this law is not to fight terrorism.

Perhaps some will recall the attestations that at least the military had to
sign, up to at least the 1970's. "I am not now and never have been" a
member of a whole raft of organizations. My favorite was the "Japanese
Cherry Blossom Society". I'm sure the repetitive signings did a whole lot
of good.
E. G. Buck



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[john smith]

The purpose of the law is to give state officials another charge to add
to a complaint. While a pilot may have other charges dismissed, the
state would still have the perjury charge to hold and try. This is the
legal system we now have. Instead of providing evidence in a case using
existing laws, the government will add frivolous charges to try a weak case.

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:55:15 -0800, C J Campbell
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>> Definitely one of the most inane laws ever passed. But the purpose of
>> this law is not to fight terrorism. It is to embarrass Democrats. The
>> outgoing party knew full well that this law would probably be repealed, so
>> now they can say during the next election that the Democrats repealed an
>> 'anti-terrorism' measure, without saying exactly what that measure was.
>
> Perhaps.
>
> But why isn't the law designed to cause aircraft owners to perjure
> themselves by failing to declare there affiliation with listed
> terrorist organizations, so that they can be prosecuted? I doubt that
> the Constitution would permit prosecuting people for merely being
> members of the listed terrorist organizations alone.
>

[Newps]

Tony wrote:

> pilot's tickets are national, airplanes are personal property, like
> cars, and are taxed at the state level.



If at all. No sales tax in Montana and I pay $20 a year for my Bo.
That money goes directly to Montana Aeronautics and takes care of state
owned airports and other worthwhile aviation stuff.

[skym]

Newps wrote:
,,,I pay $20 a year for my Bo.

Are you talking about the pilot reg (red file card for 2007), which
costs $10 (plus addl for other things) or the actual a/c registration?
I pay $50 for my C172 !!! How do you get away with $20 for a Bonanza?

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:

> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 20:35:49 GMT, "Neil Gould"
> > wrote in
>
>> Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:
>>
>>> [...] I doubt
>>> that the Constitution would permit prosecuting people for merely
>>> being members of the listed terrorist organizations alone.
>>>
>> You are talking about a State that just recently deported an Imam
>> who, on his application for citizenship didn't declare his
>> affiliations with a group that *wasn't* on a terrorist watch list at
>> the time.
>
> On what grounds did the state of Ohio manage to do that?
>
The State probably just greased the wheels for INS or some Federal agency.
If you are curious about the case, here's a start:

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2007/01/ohio-imam-deported-to-palestinian.php

Not being a lawyer, I could only watch as events unfolded. Interestingly,
many of the reports of this are inaccurate (no surprise), for example, it
is frequently reported that he was deported to Jordan and then the
Palestinian Territories. He never made it there, and for a few days, no
one knew where he was.

> I was thinking, that the law may be intended to be used similarly to
> the way Martha Stewart was found guilty of lying to federal
> prosecutes. They didn't find her guilty of SEC violations, IIRC.
>
Perhaps so, but it is still an absurdity. There are plenty of laws
covering any specific activity that winds up being terrorist in nature,
and a finding that someone lied on the form is meaningless unless there is
proof that they were involved in those activities *prior* to signing the
form.

>> As if that
>> wasn't bad enough, instead of winding up in the Palestinian
>> territories to where he was deported, he is being detained by
>> Isreal, where he was delivered.
>
> How did that happen?
>
His family (American citizens) would like to know.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1167467692943

>> So, yes, Ohio prosecutes people for far less than merely being
>> members of listed terrorist organizations.
>
> I don't think it's a crime to be a member of a listed terrorist
> organization, is it? At least, pre Patriot Act, I doubt it was.
>
I suspect that it depends on who you tick off.

>> On a lesser note, this State also increased the licensing tax on GA
>> planes to the same amount as commercial aircraft.
>
> Did that change in rate result in an increase in licensing fees for
> the typical Cessna 172 owners? If so, by about how much?
>
Yes. The rate went from about $25/yr. to $100/yr., about the same as for a
Citation as I understand it.

>> They do these things to pilots
>> because there aren't enough of us to create a political problem for
>> them.
>
> They get away with it, because people would rather pay than defend
> their rights, just like traffic citations.
>
What "rights" do we have against unreasonable taxation? The last time we
tried to get out from under such things, we wound up dumping tea and
battling the government for years. We may have the right to do that again,
but do we have the force to pull it off?

>> I agree with C J on the motivations behind this law, and the only
>> practical benefit to its existance.
>>
>
> I have no knowledge of Ohio state politics. If you and Christopher
> are correct, it is a sad comment on those governing Ohio.
>
It is a source of constant amazement and disappointment to me.

> All that aside, because the new Ohio law fails to apply similar
> requirements to the other vehicles it licenses (boats, automobiles,
> ...), it smacks of selective enforcement, and may possible be
> challenged on that ground:
> http://www.moralityinmedia.org/nolc/olrChapters/selectiveEnforcement.htm
>
That looks like a long shot to me, as it appears to cover only the
selective enforcement of a single law across a population. Even then, the
"Rational Relation test" seems to negate its intention to some degree.

Neil

[Newps]

skym wrote:

> Newps wrote:
> ,,,I pay $20 a year for my Bo.
>
> Are you talking about the pilot reg (red file card for 2007), which
> costs $10 (plus addl for other things) or the actual a/c registration?


The pilot registration is different but that money goes into the same
pot as the aircraft registration cash.



> I pay $50 for my C172 !!! How do you get away with $20 for a Bonanza?



I pay what they ask me too. Your's will go down too when it gets to be
40 years old. My 182 was $50 also.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:40:24 -0700, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>skym wrote:
>
>> Newps wrote:
>> ,,,I pay $20 a year for my Bo.
>>
>> Are you talking about the pilot reg (red file card for 2007), which
>> costs $10 (plus addl for other things) or the actual a/c registration?
>
>
>The pilot registration is different but that money goes into the same
>pot as the aircraft registration cash.
>
>
>
>> I pay $50 for my C172 !!! How do you get away with $20 for a Bonanza?
>
>
>
>I pay what they ask me too. Your's will go down too when it gets to be
>40 years old. My 182 was $50 also.

In Michigan it's based on weight. $1 a hundred be it a Cub or CJ.
I pay $30 on the Deb. A late model A36 might be on the order of $38 to
$40.
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Lou]

Who pays for the extra paper work?
Lou