Wind limits - small single engine aircraft

[[email protected]]

I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.

Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
tolerance, etc.

But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your
max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it
is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
gusty?

Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
on Sunday.

I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
flown in? Would you do it again?

Thanks

Tom

[kontiki]

wrote:
> I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
> I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.

I think many pilots need to get out and fly in windy/gusty conditions
more. By doing that you will strengthen your skills and confidence in
aircraft control.

The 172 really is capable of handling some pretty windy conditions. As
for crosswinds, as long as the runway is long enough you should give
it a try and see if you have sufficient rudder authority, if not, use
another runway.

[Stealth Pilot]

On 19 Jan 2007 22:53:33 -0800, wrote:

>I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
>I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.
>
>Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
>own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
>day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
>tolerance, etc.
>
>But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
>too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your
>max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it
>is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
>gusty?
>
>Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
>think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
>flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
>on Sunday.
>
>I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
>flown in? Would you do it again?
>
>Thanks
>
>Tom

you should be able to fly in conditions where the windsock is
horizontal from any direction.
(obviously you change runway ends when it is from behind)

the scariest ????? (scariest isnt the right word here, you shouldnt
ever be scared because you have been trained)
the most demanding conditions are turbulence and gusting winds.

the winds dont go away just because you arent up to speed with the
demands so you should read up on the correct technique and then
practise in increasingly more difficult conditions.

if you cant fly with the windsock horizontal you'd better not try
flying crosscountry because one day you will find it horizontal and at
the end of a long flight you might not have enough fuel to go anywhere
else.

there is no bravado to flying in strong winds. it is just difficult
and demanding flying. it can be done though.

do you know how to guess at the wind speed from the windsock angle?
its a useful skill.

Stealth (windsock horizontal in any direction) Pilot
Australia

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 19 Jan 2007 22:53:33 -0800, wrote:

>I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
>I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.
>
>Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
>own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
>day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
>tolerance, etc.
>
>But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
>too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your
>max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it
>is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
>gusty?
>
>Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
>think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
>flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
>on Sunday.
>
>I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
>flown in? Would you do it again?
>
>Thanks
>
>Tom

I think you made a wise decision for today. I see winds forecast on the
order of 27G44 with 40-50K winds out of the NW at lower altitudes. It
probably would not be a comfortable flying day, although you could check
PIREPS later on for reports of turbulence.

Having said that, I note that there are plenty of airports where the
forecast crosswind component is minimal. For example, at KBOS, for much of
the day, there would be zero crosswind component on runway 29.

At KASH, where I'm currently located, the closest forecast winds are from
KMHT and are 30020G35 -- 30023G44

KASH would be landing R32 so the crosswind component would be 7G15 kts
(approximately). That would be within my capabilities (in my a/c).

Sometimes, s&^*t happens. I recall a flight to New Orleans a number of
years ago. Hurricane forecasts weren't as precise as they are today, and a
storm in the Gulf turned into a hurricane and was heading towards New
Orleans as were we. I landed at Lakefront in 40-50Kt winds. But I had a
Plan B which included the fact that the winds were steady (no gust at all
being reported) and that there was a runway at New Orleans International
that was aligned directly into the wind.

Another technique you can use in heavy wind conditions is to land at an
angle to the runway, especially if the runway is wide. KCEF comes to mind,
but others can be used.

You should consider going up with an instructor in windy conditions, so you
can explore your limits in this area.


--ron

[kontiki]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

> if you cant fly with the windsock horizontal you'd better not try
> flying crosscountry because one day you will find it horizontal and at
> the end of a long flight you might not have enough fuel to go anywhere
> else.

Well stated. We had a case here where someone (a fairly new pilot) and
his wife flew on a multi-day XC and ended up breaking the landing
gear (fixed gear) on his plane when trying to land in a windy cross
wind at an airport far from home. Fortunately no injuries, but the
landing should have been otherwise routine.

[Jake Brodsky]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

> you should be able to fly in conditions where the windsock is
> horizontal from any direction.
> (obviously you change runway ends when it is from behind)
>
> the scariest ????? (scariest isnt the right word here, you shouldnt
> ever be scared because you have been trained)
> the most demanding conditions are turbulence and gusting winds.
>
> the winds dont go away just because you arent up to speed with the
> demands so you should read up on the correct technique and then
> practise in increasingly more difficult conditions.

I would like to point out that being trained doesn't mean that you're
safe handling the aircraft. It means you're aware of the hazards and
you know your limits. Being scared is a sign that you ought to land
somewhere else.

That said, I agree with your assessment that winds can surprise you. It
is good to practice with an instructor on a windy winter day.

I've landed without incident in 25G40 conditions with the runway about
30 to 40 degrees off of the wind direction. The only surprise was after
slowing to about 15 MPH, my aircraft weathervaned toward the right.
There was a high speed taxiway right there in front of me. Instead of
braking, I kept going and stopped on the taxiway. Once I came to a
stop, my airspeed indicator was still reading about 35 MPH from the gust
(I was now facing straight in to the wind).

My personal rule of thumb in the Baltimore area is that if the winds are
blowing 30 knots or greater at 3000 over EMI, I will evaluate my options
very carefully. Above 35 knots I will usually stay put. My reasoning
is that turbulence and LLWS are likely to get pretty dicey when the
winds blow that hard.

Bottom line: A good pilot uses experience to know when to stay on the
ground and training to deal with the unexpected. I have experience in
turbulence, LLWS, and gusty winds, but I won't launch in to it
deliberately. That's one of the nice things about flying for fun. If
it doesn't look like fun, don't do it.

Jake Brodsky

[Vaughn Simon]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
> own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
> day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
> tolerance, etc.
>

The title of this thread may be a little misleading to a newbie. Wind down
the runway is a GOOD thing that actually makes landings and takeoffs easier and
safer. Ground speed is less on landing, ground roll is less on takeoff and the
takeoff angle over the runway is far improved. In the pattern, winds can make
the downwind portion go so fast that a new pilot might get behind the airplane,
but if you are flying a slow plane and doing a crab for a proper base leg track,
you have a wonderful view of the runway while on your base leg, and your turn
onto final can actually be far less than 90 degrees. Short field landings into
a headwind are far easier, and can actually fool you into believing you have
skills that you don't.

Crosswinds and gusty conditions are a 'nuther whole matter. If you go out
to the airport and find those conditions, rather than canceling, it might be a
good time to seek an idle CFI and use the opportunity to work on skills and
self-confidence.

Vaughn CFIG

[d&tm]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
> I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.
>
> Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
> own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
> day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
> tolerance, etc.
>
> But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
> too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your
> max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it
> is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
> gusty?
>
> Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
> think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
> flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
> on Sunday.
>
> I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
> flown in? Would you do it again?
>
I dont fly if forecast winds ( on the ground) are greater than 25 kts, or
gusting more than 5kts, or forecast crosswind is more than 10kts. I know I
can handle greater than this because I have done so with an instructor, but
by setting these limits I think I can keep myself out of trouble if winds
are stronger than forecast. On one occaision doing solo circuits in a
Warrior a northerly wind sprung up that I reckon must have been close to
40kts, but it was pretty steady and I had a north runway so there was
basically no crosswind component or gusts. it just felt a bit wierd that
the aeroplane didnt seem to be going anywhere on final as I came in with
almost full power. For reference I am PPL with about 180 hrs( over 5
years) .
Terry
PPL downunder

[WestCDA]

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...

> you should be able to fly in conditions where the windsock is
> horizontal from any direction.

I can't say I agree with this. I think it's worth pointing out that a
windsock is horizontal at 150 kts, just the same as it is at 15 kts. We had
conditions here a couple weeks ago (Rocky Mountain foothills)where the
windspeed at field elevation was gusting to 80 and 90 miles and hour.
>
> do you know how to guess at the wind speed from the windsock angle?
> its a useful skill.

Yes, up to the point the windsock is horizontal, after which you need a
better tool. I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft. You
may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer achieved with a
new aircraft and a very good pilot. If the calculated crosswind based on
the wind speed, direction, and available runway exceeds the DCC for your
aircraft, it's cause for at least caution if not an outright scrub of the
flight.

If you're landing at an airport with an overly strong crosswind, and fuel or
other concerns don't allow finding another airport with a more favorable
runway, lack of control authority may make landing on and maintaining the
runway extremely difficult if not impossible.

[Roy Smith]

In article <bSwsh.172849$YV4.24801@edtnps89>,
"WestCDA" > wrote:

> "Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > you should be able to fly in conditions where the windsock is
> > horizontal from any direction.
>
> I can't say I agree with this. I think it's worth pointing out that a
> windsock is horizontal at 150 kts, just the same as it is at 15 kts.

At 15 kts, the sock is horizontal. At 150 kts, the pole it's mounted on is
horizontal.

[Bob Moore]

WestCDA wrote

> I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
> crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft.
> You may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer
> achieved with a new aircraft and a very good pilot.

I would suggest that it might be the highest number that the lawyers
would permit to be included in the flight manual.

Bob Moore

[Peter Dohm]

> > I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
> > crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft.
> > You may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer
> > achieved with a new aircraft and a very good pilot.
>
> I would suggest that it might be the highest number that the lawyers
> would permit to be included in the flight manual.
>
I have never looked it up, but my first instructor asserted that it was the
amount of crosswind in which it was demonstrated that the (tricycle gear)
aircraft would safely complete a landing without any crosswind correction
being applied.

Again, I have not verified the assertion; but it is certainly not the worst
case condition under which the aircraft can be landed safely by a highly
proficient pilot...

Peter

[WestCDA]

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
...
>> > I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
>> > crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft.
>> > You may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer
>> > achieved with a new aircraft and a very good pilot.
>>
>> I would suggest that it might be the highest number that the lawyers
>> would permit to be included in the flight manual.
>>
> I have never looked it up, but my first instructor asserted that it was
> the
> amount of crosswind in which it was demonstrated that the (tricycle gear)
> aircraft would safely complete a landing without any crosswind correction
> being applied.
>
> Again, I have not verified the assertion; but it is certainly not the
> worst
> case condition under which the aircraft can be landed safely by a highly
> proficient pilot...
>
> Peter
>
>
Just the highest crosswind experienced and 'safely handled' during the
certification process, it appears. Here's a link to an article on the
subject, and it seems to agree with other references I found regarding the
DCC.

http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueMA05/Basics3405.html

"The 15-knot Demonstrated Crosswind Component is not a limitation, per se;
it's just a simple statement that sometime during certification the airplane
was landed successfully, without using any unusual skills, in a 15-knot
crosswind. But, remember the pilot who demonstrated the crosswind landing
was a very experienced test pilot. Are you as competent as he or she was?"

[Roger[_4_]]

On 19 Jan 2007 22:53:33 -0800, wrote:

>I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
>I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.
>
>Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
>own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
>day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
>tolerance, etc.
>
>But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
>too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your

Too much cross wind is when I run out of rudder authority. On the Deb
that is about 25 MPH. I've taken off in 30G50 when it was down the
runway. After that trip my wife commented: "That Dramamine is
wonderful stuff!"

>max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it

Wind speed? No. Gusty? to some extent.
Both the Deb and I have the same limit of 25 MPH for cross wind
component.

>is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
>gusty?

It depends on the angle. Gusty means wind shear. Really gusty means a
lot of wind shear. I don't have any set figure. If I go out and don't
like the feel, I don't go.

>
>Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
>think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
>flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
>on Sunday.
>
>I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
>flown in? Would you do it again?

I don't think I've flown in any windy conditions I'd call scary. OTOH
the time airspeed in the Cherokee 180 dropped off scale when I was
only about 300 feet up on final was certainly attention getting.
However it was a freak gust and those can happen most any time the
wind is blowing.


>
>Thanks
>
>Tom
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[EridanMan]

Even a steady 25 knot wind directly down the runway _can_ catch the
unwary off guard (windshear).

I'll never forget that lesson... OAK was calling a 15 knot wind, no
gusts, coming right down the nines... I had my instructor with me at
the time. I noticed during the crosswind that my correction seemed
rather extreme (over 30 degrees) to stay on course, turned final, and
maintained a book 75mph IAS down final.

All of a sudden I hit the windshear layer, 35 knot wind above, 15 knot
wind below- and suddenly I had no where NEAR the kinetic energy I was
expecting, still 100 feet above the ground and well short of the
threshold.

My instructor saved that one, and Iearned a valuable lesson. One of
two times in my flying life I've made the 'Your Plane!' call.





On Jan 20, 9:01 am, "Vaughn Simon" >
wrote:
> > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
>
> > Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
> > own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
> > day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
> > tolerance, etc. The title of this thread may be a little misleading to a newbie. Wind down
> the runway is a GOOD thing that actually makes landings and takeoffs easier and
> safer. Ground speed is less on landing, ground roll is less on takeoff and the
> takeoff angle over the runway is far improved. In the pattern, winds can make
> the downwind portion go so fast that a new pilot might get behind the airplane,
> but if you are flying a slow plane and doing a crab for a proper base leg track,
> you have a wonderful view of the runway while on your base leg, and your turn
> onto final can actually be far less than 90 degrees. Short field landings into
> a headwind are far easier, and can actually fool you into believing you have
> skills that you don't.
>
> Crosswinds and gusty conditions are a 'nuther whole matter. If you go out
> to the airport and find those conditions, rather than canceling, it might be a
> good time to seek an idle CFI and use the opportunity to work on skills and
> self-confidence.
>
> Vaughn CFIG

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:39:03 GMT, "WestCDA" > wrote:

>I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
>crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft. You
>may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer achieved with a
>new aircraft and a very good pilot. If the calculated crosswind based on
>the wind speed, direction, and available runway exceeds the DCC for your
>aircraft, it's cause for at least caution if not an outright scrub of the
>flight.

That statement, for small Part 91 aircraft, is not the case.

The demonstrated crosswind component is merely what the wind happened to be
on some day when the crosswind was blowing at least strongly enough to meet
certification requirements. The 14 CFR 23 requirements are that this value
be at least 0.2 Vso.

========================================
§ 23.233 Directional stability and control.

(a) A 90 degree cross-component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe
for taxiing, takeoff, and landing must be established and must be not less
than 0.2 VSO.
======================================

It is not even close to being a limitation.


--ron

[Matt Whiting]

EridanMan wrote:

> Even a steady 25 knot wind directly down the runway _can_ catch the
> unwary off guard (windshear).
>
> I'll never forget that lesson... OAK was calling a 15 knot wind, no
> gusts, coming right down the nines... I had my instructor with me at
> the time. I noticed during the crosswind that my correction seemed
> rather extreme (over 30 degrees) to stay on course, turned final, and
> maintained a book 75mph IAS down final.
>
> All of a sudden I hit the windshear layer, 35 knot wind above, 15 knot
> wind below- and suddenly I had no where NEAR the kinetic energy I was
> expecting, still 100 feet above the ground and well short of the
> threshold.
>
> My instructor saved that one, and Iearned a valuable lesson. One of
> two times in my flying life I've made the 'Your Plane!' call.

Were you a new student at the time?

Matt

[Stealth Pilot]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:31:32 -0500, Jake Brodsky
> wrote:


>Bottom line: A good pilot uses experience to know when to stay on the
>ground and training to deal with the unexpected. I have experience in
>turbulence, LLWS, and gusty winds, but I won't launch in to it
>deliberately. That's one of the nice things about flying for fun. If
>it doesn't look like fun, don't do it.
>
>Jake Brodsky

that is it in a nutshell.

one should always use the superior management skills to ensure that
the superior flying skills are not called for. :-)

in you example that I snipped you demonstrated a very good flying
skill. you kept thinking and flying right to the end and took
advantage of every opportunity that presented itself.
that will turn dangerous situations into stories on usnet :-)

if the weather is bad, the winds deplorable, or the forecast involved
and difficult my sincere advise is to find the window seat of the
closest airport bar and study the weather over a beer.
it all becomes much more obvious over a beer!

(for the humour impaired I will explain.
if it is marginal dont go.
the last beer you drink will see you avoiding the weather for another
8 hours :-) )

Stealth Pilot

[Stealth Pilot]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:39:03 GMT, "WestCDA" >
wrote:

>"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...
>
>> you should be able to fly in conditions where the windsock is
>> horizontal from any direction.
>
> I can't say I agree with this. I think it's worth pointing out that a
>windsock is horizontal at 150 kts, just the same as it is at 15 kts. We had
>conditions here a couple weeks ago (Rocky Mountain foothills)where the
>windspeed at field elevation was gusting to 80 and 90 miles and hour.
>>
>> do you know how to guess at the wind speed from the windsock angle?
>> its a useful skill.
>
> Yes, up to the point the windsock is horizontal, after which you need a
>better tool. I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
>crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft.

wrong wrong wrong!
if the certification test flight is done in nil wind and there isnt a
windy day available for ages then the design may have a low or no
demonstrated crosswind component ....for the simple fact that there
wasnt a crosswind available.
you are reading far too much into this figure.
it is really just the crosswind component that a demonstration landing
was made in for the purposes of certification.


> You
>may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer achieved with a
>new aircraft and a very good pilot.

wrong wrong wrong! that is not what the figure is about at all.

> If the calculated crosswind based on
>the wind speed, direction, and available runway exceeds the DCC for your
>aircraft, it's cause for at least caution if not an outright scrub of the
>flight.
>
yes caution in that you will need to work hard for the landing.


>If you're landing at an airport with an overly strong crosswind, and fuel or
>other concerns don't allow finding another airport with a more favorable
>runway, lack of control authority may make landing on and maintaining the
>runway extremely difficult if not impossible.
>
then dont maintain the runway. land diagonally across it.
if the wind is so strong that you can only find a taxiway into wind
then land on the taxiway.(advise people of what you are doing of
course)
locally here Bunbury is often unlandable in my aircraft because of
strong rotors off the adjacent row of pine trees but 20 miles away
there sits Busselton airstrip which is in the open and better oriented
to the predominant winds.
.....you've got the idea though.
Stealth Pilot

[mike regish]

Your instructor was wrong. Seriously wrong, at that.

mike

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
...
>>
> I have never looked it up, but my first instructor asserted that it was
> the
> amount of crosswind in which it was demonstrated that the (tricycle gear)
> aircraft would safely complete a landing without any crosswind correction
> being applied.
>
> Peter
>
>

[[email protected]]

Thanks for all the insights.

I flew today rather than yesterday, and it was lovely and smooth
(despite an AIRMET for moderate turbulence), with low winds. My pax,
both of whom were a little nervous, loved it, especially the perfect
greaser at the end.

My lesson learned? You may as well fly in good conditions if you have
the choice, especially with first-time pax.

Tom


mike regish wrote:
> Your instructor was wrong. Seriously wrong, at that.
>
> mike
>
> "Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> > I have never looked it up, but my first instructor asserted that it was
> > the
> > amount of crosswind in which it was demonstrated that the (tricycle gear)
> > aircraft would safely complete a landing without any crosswind correction
> > being applied.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >

[Stealth Pilot]

On 21 Jan 2007 17:23:38 -0800, wrote:

>Thanks for all the insights.
>
>I flew today rather than yesterday, and it was lovely and smooth
>(despite an AIRMET for moderate turbulence), with low winds. My pax,
>both of whom were a little nervous, loved it, especially the perfect
>greaser at the end.
>
>My lesson learned? You may as well fly in good conditions if you have
>the choice, especially with first-time pax.
>
>Tom
>


good decision.
you should never terrify the passengers.

the thing I get bothered with when people ask about being "scared" is
that there are not really that many scary situations in aviation.
there are occasionally situations that require focus, a cool nerve and
a functioning mind.

being "scared" implies that you have surrendered to fear and have
ceased functioning mentally. the result of ceasing to function
mentally in a stressful situation can mean that a flyable situation
has become a fatal accident.

beyond the understanding, beyond the self discipline, beyond all those
things that make a person into a good pilot, if you can educate your
mind to continue functioning in difficult situations then you will
stand out as a cool thinker in times of stress and you will be well on
the way to becoming a superb pilot.

note that in none of this have I said that stressful situations are
easy, quite the opposite in fact and that is why we spend so much time
in managing the environment to avoid them.

tailwinds!
Stealth Pilot

[Peter Dohm]

>
> ========================================
> § 23.233 Directional stability and control.
>
> (a) A 90 degree cross-component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe
> for taxiing, takeoff, and landing must be established and must be not less
> than 0.2 VSO.
> ======================================
>
> It is not even close to being a limitation.
>

Most interesting, and I should have read it before. In any case, it debunks
a lot of stories from a lot of sources.

Peter

[cwby-flyer]

I generally don't mind either gusty conditions or crosswind conditions
(up to my personal limit of 15kts of x-wind component). Now, although
I've never been "scared," I have been a few demanding conditions in my
Cherokee - the toughest was a landing with winds @32G40 and variable
from 10 - 30 degrees off the centerline.


Mike

[JGalban[_9_]]

Stealth wrote :
>wrong wrong wrong!
>if the certification test flight is done in nil wind and there isnt a
>windy day available for ages then the design may have a low or no
>demonstrated crosswind component ....for the simple fact that there
>wasnt a crosswind available.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Ron Rosenfeld quoted chapter and verse.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)


--
JGalban
Posted at www.flight.org

[Danny Deger]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
snip
> I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
> flown in? Would you do it again?

I was on a short cross country from the NE panhandle of Texas to Amarillo,
that is in the middle of the panhandle. Halfway there flight service called
me and said Amarillo was 50 gusting to 70. I landed at Borger. I literally
had zero ground speed at touch down in a Cessna 150. Fortunately the wind
was straight down the runway. Absolutely no cross wind at all. A couple of
nice guys came out and held down my wings for me to taxi in and tie down.

Danny Deger

>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>

[Danny Deger]

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:31:32 -0500, Jake Brodsky
> > wrote:
>
>
snip

> (for the humour impaired I will explain.
> if it is marginal dont go.
> the last beer you drink will see you avoiding the weather for another
> 8 hours :-) )
>

Or to put it another way, "I would rather be down here wishing I was up
there than up there wishing I was down here!!

Danny Deger

[Danny Deger]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
> I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.
>
> Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
> own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
> day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
> tolerance, etc.
>
> But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
> too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your
> max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it
> is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
> gusty?
>
> Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
> think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
> flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
> on Sunday.
>
> I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
> flown in? Would you do it again?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>

Watch out for hangers that are close to the runway. You get your trusty
craft all lined up, then the turbulent air from the hangers hits and you are
all over the place.

Danny Deger

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:05:40 +0900, Stealth Pilot
> wrote:

>On 19 Jan 2007 22:53:33 -0800, wrote:
>
>>I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
>>I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.
>>
>>Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
>>own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
>>day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
>>tolerance, etc.
>>

>
>if you cant fly with the windsock horizontal you'd better not try
>flying crosscountry because one day you will find it horizontal and at
>the end of a long flight you might not have enough fuel to go anywhere
>else.

Why not?

If the pilot knows the fuel burn and how long they've been airborn
there is no excuse for running out of fuel.

I'm paranoid about fuel. If the destination ever even looked close to
cutting into reserves I'd land early and either top off the tanks or
at least add enough to get to the destination with ample fuel reserve.


>
>there is no bravado to flying in strong winds. it is just difficult
>and demanding flying. it can be done though.
>
>do you know how to guess at the wind speed from the windsock angle?
>its a useful skill.
>
>Stealth (windsock horizontal in any direction) Pilot
>Australia
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Tony]

I had a cross wind experience some years ago that might be worth
describing. I don't remember the airport -- somewhere in IL, I think.
I was flying my Mooney in a fairly strong crosswind at this single
runway airport. I didn't pay attention to the large barn near the
approach end of the runway on the upwind side. It was my first time
into this field,and it took an impressive crab angle to fly along the
extended centerline on approach.

Like a good little pilot as I started the flare I shoved in rudder to
get aimed down the centerline, cranked in some opposite yoke to keep
me over it, and some feet above the runway the wind just stopped! It
eddied around that damn barn, changed from a crosswind with a headwind
component to a tail wind -- we dropped out of the sky. There was no
damage to the airplane (to my surprise). Guys at the FBO told me that
was a common experience there, they like to watch first timers land.
You'd think they'd have said something on UNICOM.

Lesson learned -- the next time in I landed long. Second lesson
learned. If you're a fraction of a mile from touchdown and the nose of
the airplane is pointing somewhere well to the side of the runway, in
addition to looking at the runway, look at where the nose is pointing.
If there's something big there, near the approach end, think about
what the wind might be doing, and plan your touchdown accordingly. An
effective wind change of 10 or so knots can change a well planned
landing into something not quite so nice. I don't know it for a fact,
but I'd suspect a dense corpse of tall trees could have the same
effect.


, . (, becauOn Jan 20, 1:53 am, wrote:
> I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
> I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.
>
> Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
> own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
> day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
> tolerance,
>
> But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
> too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your
> max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it
> is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
> gusty?
>
> Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
> think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
> flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
> on Sunday.
>
> I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
> flown in? Would you do it again?
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom

[Roger[_4_]]

On 6 Feb 2007 08:19:04 -0800, "Tony" > wrote:

>I had a cross wind experience some years ago that might be worth
>describing. I don't remember the airport -- somewhere in IL, I think.
>I was flying my Mooney in a fairly strong crosswind at this single
>runway airport. I didn't pay attention to the large barn near the
>approach end of the runway on the upwind side. It was my first time
>into this field,and it took an impressive crab angle to fly along the
>extended centerline on approach.
>

Something similar, but with different results.
>Like a good little pilot as I started the flare I shoved in rudder to
>get aimed down the centerline, cranked in some opposite yoke to keep
>me over it, and some feet above the runway the wind just stopped! It
>eddied around that damn barn, changed from a crosswind with a headwind
>component to a tail wind -- we dropped out of the sky. There was no
>damage to the airplane (to my surprise). Guys at the FBO told me that
>was a common experience there, they like to watch first timers land.
>You'd think they'd have said something on UNICOM.
>
>Lesson learned -- the next time in I landed long. Second lesson
>learned. If you're a fraction of a mile from touchdown and the nose of
>the airplane is pointing somewhere well to the side of the runway, in
>addition to looking at the runway, look at where the nose is pointing.
>If there's something big there, near the approach end, think about
>what the wind might be doing, and plan your touchdown accordingly. An
>effective wind change of 10 or so knots can change a well planned
>landing into something not quite so nice. I don't know it for a fact,
>but I'd suspect a dense corpse of tall trees could have the same
>effect.

They can, however under the right conditions both can have the
opposite effect.

Landing at Midland Barstow (3BS) quite a few years back after a really
rough ride coming back from spending a night in TVC due to weather. I
had quite a cross wind, but the old Cherokee 180 behaved well. I was
down and on all three at probably less than 30 MPH when all of a
sudden the Cherokee started sliding sideways. I was able to keep it
pointed straight but the wind was so strong it pushed me clear to the
edge of the runway by which time I was probably doing less than 20
MPH.
The wind was rolling over the buildings at the fair grounds just to
the south of 24 creating a much stronger wind at the surface than just
10 or 20 feet up.

A guy was loading a bunch of passengers into a Cherokee 6. I asked
where they were headed and he said he was just going to take some
family members around the area. At this point I mentioned how rough
it was and the wind conditions down by the fair grounds. I said if I
came in again I'd land clear over on the south side of the runway. He
said the 6 would have no problems and not knowing the capabilities of
the 6 I didn't argue. He took off and I could see the wind push that
6 right up to the edge of the runway as it had done to me. He went
around the pattern, came in and landed on the south edge of the
runway. The wind blew him all the way across that time.

As to the trees: Houghton Lake KHTL has a 4000 foot paved 09/27 and a
short 18/36 sod strip with the north end at the south side of 09/27.
There is a tree line parallel to the full length of the 09/27 and
about 100 yards north. When the wind is out of the north you can
expect to find a north correction at pattern altitude. Maybe a 100
feet above the runway the wind will suddenly shift 180 to the south.
About the time you are going into the round out it abruptly shifts
back to the north along with a lot of turbulence. "I think" the wind
spills over the trees and blows across the runway and ends up rolling
back to the north. I'm not sure what causes it, but it can sure add a
dose of humility when we think we have the cross wind landings down
pat.

You have to forget about everything except what the plane is doing and
keep it straight.
>
>
>, . (, becauOn Jan 20, 1:53 am, wrote:
>> I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
>> I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.
>>
>> Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
>> own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
>> day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
>> tolerance,
>>
>> But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
>> too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your
>> max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it
>> is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
>> gusty?
>>
>> Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
>> think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
>> flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
>> on Sunday.
>>
>> I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
>> flown in? Would you do it again?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tom
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com