"V-22 DESERT TESTING FINDS PROBLEMS THAT HURT MISSION EFFECTIVENESS"

[Mike[_7_]]

Inside the Navy
January 22, 2007

DOT&E Report Outlines Concerns

V-22 DESERT TESTING FINDS PROBLEMS THAT HURT MISSION EFFECTIVENESS

The V-22 Osprey, which may deploy to Iraq with Marines this year,
suffered problems that hurt its mission effectiveness when the Air
Force tested it for a month in the New Mexico desert, according to a
new report from the Pentagon¹s top weapons tester.

The problems are described in the latest annual report from the Defense
Department¹s operational testing directorate, led by Charles McQueary.

The V-22 is a helicopter-plane hybrid developed by Bell Helicopter
Textron and Boeing. During an "operational utility evaluation"
conducted last summer in the desert at Kirtland Air Force Base, NM, the
effectiveness of the Osprey for training missions and potential combat
missions was "degraded by poor aircraft availability", says the report,
issued January 18.

"Frequent part and system failures, limited supply support, and high
false alarm rates in the built-in diagnostic systems caused frequent
flight delays and an excessive maintenance workload", the report says.

Some of the reliability problems "may be attributable to the extended
exposure to the desert operating environment" where the assessment
occurred, says the report.

The Osprey provided only "marginal operational availability" during the
41 flights (74 flight hours), the report says.

The Air Force Operational Test and Evaluation Center conducted the
assessment using four of the service¹s CV-22 aircraft. The testing
started June 6, 2006, and wrapped up July 10, said Katherine Gandara, a
spokeswoman for the center. The final test flight for the assessment
was conducted June 30, she said. All of the testing took place in the
desert, she said.

The Marine Corps version of the V-22 would likely suffer the same kinds
of problems in desert conditions, a Pentagon source said.

Both versions of the aircraft are very similar except the CV-22 has
some extra equipment for special operations missions. The Air Force
plans to buy 50 Ospreys for its special operations troops, while the
Marine Corps plans to buy 360.

The report urges the V-22 program to correct the deficiencies noted in
the "operational utility evaluation" before the CV-22 begins its
initial operational testing and evaluation in FY-08.

The report also calls on the program to monitor the operational
suitability of the Marine Corps¹ Block B version of the Osprey, which
is due to deploy this year, to determine the "discrepancy" between the
solid performance reported in the operational evaluation of the Marine
Corps version and the problems now coming to light.

James Darcy, the Navy¹s spokesman for the V-22 program, said the
problems encountered in last summer's testing involved both known and
previously unknown issues.

Program officials do not believe these issues will delay fielding plans
for the Marine Corps or Air Force versions of the Osprey, he said.

Darcy said the testing in New Mexico was originally intended to test
the Air Force¹s rigorous training curriculum. This was a "much more
stressful evaluation" compared to the conditions and types of flights
that the V-22 program anticipates on an actual deployment, he said.

But Philip Coyle, a former director of operational testing and
evaluation at the Pentagon, and now a senior adviser with the Center
for Defense Information, said it is amazing how many reliability
problems continue to affect the V-22.

"This produces a maintenance and support burden that the Marines really
can¹t afford", he said. "All of the reliability problems that they
continue to have here in the [United] States -- it¹s going to drive
them crazy overseas."

[Arved Sandstrom]

"Mike" > wrote in message
ps.com...
Inside the Navy
January 22, 2007

DOT&E Report Outlines Concerns

V-22 DESERT TESTING FINDS PROBLEMS THAT HURT MISSION EFFECTIVENESS

The V-22 Osprey, which may deploy to Iraq with Marines this year,
suffered problems that hurt its mission effectiveness when the Air
Force tested it for a month in the New Mexico desert, according to a
new report from the Pentagon¹s top weapons tester.
[ SNIP ]

**********

These sound largely like software problems. That's no surprise - maybe 1 in
a 100 organizations actually write reliable code. You pretty much assume
that your software will be crap, and work around it.

It's a bit disturbing that the Osprey didn't get tested in a desert
environment for an extended period before last year. If it was so tested
prior to that, how is it that it suddenly sucked last year? It's not so much
that the V-22 is sensitive to desert conditions, but that nobody seems to
have examined the issue before. If the machine is in fact sensitive, that's
not necessarily a huge deal - the Afrika Korps managed with their tanks in
North Africa.

AHS

[Jack Linthicum]

Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> Inside the Navy
> January 22, 2007
>
> DOT&E Report Outlines Concerns
>
> V-22 DESERT TESTING FINDS PROBLEMS THAT HURT MISSION EFFECTIVENESS
>
> The V-22 Osprey, which may deploy to Iraq with Marines this year,
> suffered problems that hurt its mission effectiveness when the Air
> Force tested it for a month in the New Mexico desert, according to a
> new report from the Pentagon¹s top weapons tester.
> [ SNIP ]
>
> **********
>
> These sound largely like software problems. That's no surprise - maybe 1 in
> a 100 organizations actually write reliable code. You pretty much assume
> that your software will be crap, and work around it.
>
> It's a bit disturbing that the Osprey didn't get tested in a desert
> environment for an extended period before last year. If it was so tested
> prior to that, how is it that it suddenly sucked last year? It's not so much
> that the V-22 is sensitive to desert conditions, but that nobody seems to
> have examined the issue before. If the machine is in fact sensitive, that's
> not necessarily a huge deal - the Afrika Korps managed with their tanks in
> North Africa.
>
> AHS

and Jimmy Carter said in an interview that he wished he had sent eight
helicopters rather than seven.

[Vince]

Mike wrote:
> Inside the Navy
> January 22, 2007
>
> DOT&E Report Outlines Concerns
>
> V-22 DESERT TESTING FINDS PROBLEMS THAT HURT MISSION EFFECTIVENESS
>

Big surprise
it's the same flying turkey it always was


> The V-22 Osprey, which may deploy to Iraq with Marines this year,
> suffered problems that hurt its mission effectiveness when the Air
> Force tested it for a month in the New Mexico desert, according to a
> new report from the Pentagon¹s top weapons tester.
>
> The problems are described in the latest annual report from the Defense
> Department¹s operational testing directorate, led by Charles McQueary.
>
> The V-22 is a helicopter-plane hybrid developed by Bell Helicopter
> Textron and Boeing. During an "operational utility evaluation"
> conducted last summer in the desert at Kirtland Air Force Base, NM, the
> effectiveness of the Osprey for training missions and potential combat
> missions was "degraded by poor aircraft availability", says the report,
> issued January 18.
>
> "Frequent part and system failures, limited supply support, and high
> false alarm rates in the built-in diagnostic systems caused frequent
> flight delays and an excessive maintenance workload", the report says.
>
> Some of the reliability problems "may be attributable to the extended
> exposure to the desert operating environment" where the assessment
> occurred, says the report.
>

a month in the desert


> The Osprey provided only "marginal operational availability" during the
> 41 flights (74 flight hours), the report says.
>

74 hours in 24 days by 4 aircraft
that is less than an hour a day per aircraft.

wow an hour a day must have really been tough on the aircraft

> The Air Force Operational Test and Evaluation Center conducted the
> assessment using four of the service¹s CV-22 aircraft. The testing
> started June 6, 2006, and wrapped up July 10, said Katherine Gandara, a
> spokeswoman for the center. The final test flight for the assessment
> was conducted June 30, she said. All of the testing took place in the
> desert, she said.
>
snip

> Darcy said the testing in New Mexico was originally intended to test
> the Air Force¹s rigorous training curriculum. This was a "much more
> stressful evaluation" compared to the conditions and types of flights
> that the V-22 program anticipates on an actual deployment, he said.
>
> But Philip Coyle, a former director of operational testing and
> evaluation at the Pentagon, and now a senior adviser with the Center
> for Defense Information, said it is amazing how many reliability
> problems continue to affect the V-22.
>
> "This produces a maintenance and support burden that the Marines really
> can¹t afford", he said. "All of the reliability problems that they
> continue to have here in the [United] States -- it¹s going to drive
> them crazy overseas."
>

Yeh but the brass really wants this overpriced over weight under sized
turkey since it flies much faster than a donkey or a camel

Vince

[Vince]

Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> Inside the Navy
> January 22, 2007
>
> DOT&E Report Outlines Concerns
>
> V-22 DESERT TESTING FINDS PROBLEMS THAT HURT MISSION EFFECTIVENESS
>
> The V-22 Osprey, which may deploy to Iraq with Marines this year,
> suffered problems that hurt its mission effectiveness when the Air
> Force tested it for a month in the New Mexico desert, according to a
> new report from the Pentagon¹s top weapons tester.
> [ SNIP ]
>
> **********
>
> These sound largely like software problems. That's no surprise - maybe 1 in
> a 100 organizations actually write reliable code. You pretty much assume
> that your software will be crap, and work around it.
>
> It's a bit disturbing that the Osprey didn't get tested in a desert
> environment for an extended period before last year. If it was so tested
> prior to that, how is it that it suddenly sucked last year? It's not so much
> that the V-22 is sensitive to desert conditions, but that nobody seems to
> have examined the issue before. If the machine is in fact sensitive, that's
> not necessarily a huge deal - the Afrika Korps managed with their tanks in
> North Africa.
>
> AHS
>
>
except that it is an "attack transport"

In such a role reliability is everything


Vince

[Dann]

On 22 Jan 2007, Vince said the following in news:SIydnTP_zep-
.

> Yeh but the brass really wants this overpriced over weight under sized
> turkey since it flies much faster than a donkey or a camel

Congress jammed it down the brass' collective throat a long time ago.
Should we really complain when they attempt to swallow?

Regards,
Dann

[David E. Powell]

How long have they been working this ship up?

[Dann]

On 29 Jan 2007, David E. Powell said the following in
oups.com.

> How long have they been working this ship up?
>

Erg. My ability to recall dates being somewhat in question....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-22_Osprey

First funding was appropriated during 1986. In 1988, then SecDef Dick
Cheney canceled the program. Congress disagreed.

As I recall from reading stories about it at the time, the problem was
that the program managers had ensured that there were jobs producing
parts for the program in lots of Congressional districts. So the program
had the support of not only defense minded Congress critters, and
Congress critters with defense contractors in their districts, but it
also had the support of Congress critters with newly created defense
related jobs in their otherwise non-defense-job-having districts.

Voting against jobs in your own district was and is considered bad form
for Congress Critters.

First flight was in 1989. Altitude was measured with a micrometer.

Regards,
Dann

[Duwop]

On Jan 29, 3:59 am, Dann > wrote:
> On 29 Jan 2007, David E. Powell said the following groups.com.
>
> > How long have they been working this ship up?
>
> Erg. My ability to recall dates being somewhat in question....
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-22_Osprey
>
> First funding was appropriated during 1986. In 1988, then SecDef Dick
> Cheney canceled the program. Congress disagreed.
>
> As I recall from reading stories about it at the time, the problem was
> that the program managers had ensured that there were jobs producing
> parts for the program in lots of Congressional districts. So the program
> had the support of not only defense minded Congress critters, and
> Congress critters with defense contractors in their districts, but it
> also had the support of Congress critters with newly created defense
> related jobs in their otherwise non-defense-job-having districts.
>
> Voting against jobs in your own district was and is considered bad form
> for Congress Critters.
>
> First flight was in 1989. Altitude was measured with a micrometer.
>
> Regards,
> Dann

These dates sound wrong. I went through 96H AIT at Ft. Huachuca in
1982 and they were test flying them out of there then. IIRC two-three
airframes out of one hangar there at the airfield. Pretty interesting
take-off. Don't remember seeing any landings. ;-)

I seem to remember that at that time it was still a "Marine only"
project undergoing joint testing to see if the Army would be
interested in co-funding.

So this bird's been flying for a quarter century and is still buggy?
Kill it already, it's stinking up the joint. Probably for the same
money a transport of like capability could have been designed using
Harrier tech.

D

[DDAY]

----------
In article . com>, "Duwop"
> wrote:

> These dates sound wrong. I went through 96H AIT at Ft. Huachuca in
> 1982 and they were test flying them out of there then. IIRC two-three
> airframes out of one hangar there at the airfield. Pretty interesting
> take-off. Don't remember seeing any landings. ;-)

You're probably thinking of the XV-15.



D

[Duwop]

On Jan 30, 7:01 pm, "DDAY" > wrote:
> ----------
> In article . com>, "Duwop"
>
> > wrote:
> > These dates sound wrong. I went through 96H AIT at Ft. Huachuca in
> > 1982 and they were test flying them out of there then. IIRC two-three
> > airframes out of one hangar there at the airfield. Pretty interesting
> > take-off. Don't remember seeing any landings. ;-)
>
> You're probably thinking of the XV-15.

Didn't think so, the one I saw was longer in the belly with some
actual cargo room. One of the rumors was that the Osprey could replace
the OV-1D. The early version I saw did not have the lower fuselage
bulge the newest version shows.

But, this XV-15 website does specifically mention Huachuca, so maybe
my mind's playing tricks. I've been remembering them as Osprey /
V-22's forever.

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Movie/XV-15/HTML/EM-0040-01.html

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v-22.htm

[DDAY]

----------
In article . com>, "Duwop"
> wrote:

>> You're probably thinking of the XV-15.
>
> Didn't think so, the one I saw was longer in the belly with some
> actual cargo room. One of the rumors was that the Osprey could replace
> the OV-1D. The early version I saw did not have the lower fuselage
> bulge the newest version shows.
>
> But, this XV-15 website does specifically mention Huachuca, so maybe
> my mind's playing tricks. I've been remembering them as Osprey /
> V-22's forever.
>
> http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Movie/XV-15/HTML/EM-0040-01.html
>
> http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v-22.htm

Your memory's faulty. Bill Norton in his book "Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey"
states that the first V-22 flight was made in Arlington, TX on March 19,
1989. (p. 43)




D

[Duwop]

> > But, this XV-15 website does specifically mention Huachuca, so maybe
> > my mind's playing tricks. I've been remembering them as Osprey /
> > V-22's forever.
>
> >http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Movie/XV-15/HTML/EM-0040-01.html
>
> >http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v-22.htm
>
> Your memory's faulty. Bill Norton in his book "Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey"
> states that the first V-22 flight was made in Arlington, TX on March 19,
> 1989. (p. 43)

Yeah yeah, we got it already. You just went from "thanks for the info"
to "thanks for the info .... smart ass".

[DDAY]

----------
In article . com>, "Duwop"
> wrote:

>> >http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Movie/XV-15/HTML/EM-0040-01.html
>>
>> >http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v-22.htm
>>
>> Your memory's faulty. Bill Norton in his book "Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey"
>> states that the first V-22 flight was made in Arlington, TX on March 19,
>> 1989. (p. 43)
>
> Yeah yeah, we got it already. You just went from "thanks for the info"
> to "thanks for the info .... smart ass".

No need to get snotty. I provided a date of first flight and location, plus
a source. Buy the book, or don't. Anyway, you're welcome.




D