real life use of general aviation for this newsgroup

[Tony]

I've checked my log book, and it looks like almost all of my flights
are XC of one sort or another. That is, the airplane is pretty much
used the way I use my car. It's a convenient way to make a trip that's
a few hundred to a thousand miles long. Not all of the trips are
necessary (just as not all of the car trips I make are necessary,
either). Very few flight legs terminate at the same airport as where
the flight started.

If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
your usage profile like?

My sense, and it could be very wrong, is that we use GA as a tool:
there's no doubt we like flying, and probably like me you're happy to
be flying, but you have other things to do when you land. For instance,
a typical non-business flight for me to Nantucket Island (off Cape
Cod, MA, USA) and that brings back memories of cobblestone streets and
flowers in gardens behind fences, rather than the CAVU conditions of
the flight. It might bring back different memories if required an
approach to minimums in fog, but that would be the exception.

I expect glider pilots will have a different take -- as best I can
tell, that tribe makes no excuses, they fly for the sole pleasure of
flying.

[Peter R.]

On 1/26/2007 8:52:30 AM, "Tony" wrote:

> If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
> your usage profile like?

80% business, 15% charity, 5% personal, and all of these flights are x/c's
using my Bonanza V35B.

Regarding my business flights, I fly to my customer's city on Monday and
return home on Thursdays and occasionally fly to a business meeting.

--
Peter

[Gene Seibel]

On Jan 26, 7:52 am, "Tony" > wrote:
> I've checked my log book, and it looks like almost all of my flights
> are XC of one sort or another. That is, the airplane is pretty much
> used the way I use my car. It's a convenient way to make a trip that's
> a few hundred to a thousand miles long. Not all of the trips are
> necessary (just as not all of the car trips I make are necessary,
> either). Very few flight legs terminate at the same airport as where
> the flight started.
>
> If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
> your usage profile like?
>
Mostly cross country. Last year it was about 2/3 travel towork
locations and 1/3 personal vacations and family visits. If I am not
flying enough to get the fix I need, I do take some flights just to
fly, but at the present time that is rare.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Darkwing]

"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've checked my log book, and it looks like almost all of my flights
> are XC of one sort or another. That is, the airplane is pretty much
> used the way I use my car. It's a convenient way to make a trip that's
> a few hundred to a thousand miles long. Not all of the trips are
> necessary (just as not all of the car trips I make are necessary,
> either). Very few flight legs terminate at the same airport as where
> the flight started.
>
> If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
> your usage profile like?
>
> My sense, and it could be very wrong, is that we use GA as a tool:
> there's no doubt we like flying, and probably like me you're happy to
> be flying, but you have other things to do when you land. For instance,
> a typical non-business flight for me to Nantucket Island (off Cape
> Cod, MA, USA) and that brings back memories of cobblestone streets and
> flowers in gardens behind fences, rather than the CAVU conditions of
> the flight. It might bring back different memories if required an
> approach to minimums in fog, but that would be the exception.
>
> I expect glider pilots will have a different take -- as best I can
> tell, that tribe makes no excuses, they fly for the sole pleasure of
> flying.
>


All mine are for fun, just always wanted to fly since I was a kid. My
business typical requires me to pull a trailer so a C172 is out of the
question for pretty much any business trip! I think I'll find more utility
for flying later in life, right now it is for pleasure.

--------------------------------
DW

[d&tm]

"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've checked my log book, and it looks like almost all of my flights
> are XC of one sort or another. That is, the airplane is pretty much
> used the way I use my car. It's a convenient way to make a trip that's
> a few hundred to a thousand miles long. Not all of the trips are
> necessary (just as not all of the car trips I make are necessary,
> either). Very few flight legs terminate at the same airport as where
> the flight started.
>
> If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
> your usage profile like?
>
> My sense, and it could be very wrong, is that we use GA as a tool:
> there's no doubt we like flying, and probably like me you're happy to
> be flying, but you have other things to do when you land. For instance,
> a typical non-business flight for me to Nantucket Island (off Cape
> Cod, MA, USA) and that brings back memories of cobblestone streets and
> flowers in gardens behind fences, rather than the CAVU conditions of
> the flight. It might bring back different memories if required an
> approach to minimums in fog, but that would be the exception.
>
> I expect glider pilots will have a different take -- as best I can
> tell, that tribe makes no excuses, they fly for the sole pleasure of
> flying.

Perhaps we are the poor cousins but down under a lot of us PPLs are what we
call weekend warriors, who might go out every other week for a 1 hour
joyflight from the same airport. with hopefully a couple of x country trips
every year. Many of you US posters would probably doubt we can keep up the
necessary skills with maybe 40 hours per year but you need to bear in mind
much lower traffic density, generally good weather and a fairly open
terain. I have an outside controlled airspace license which lets me fly
anywhere in the country apart from the controlled airpace around the major
centers ( which still have smaller outside controlled airspace fields so it
is not much of a restriction at all). I dont have to worry too much about
ATC procedures... just being sure to stay out of the controlled airpsace. I
just love the freedom of flying .. the journey is unimportant.
terry.

[John Theune]

Peter R. wrote:
> On 1/26/2007 8:52:30 AM, "Tony" wrote:
>
>> If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
>> your usage profile like?
>
> 80% business, 15% charity, 5% personal, and all of these flights are x/c's
> using my Bonanza V35B.
>
> Regarding my business flights, I fly to my customer's city on Monday and
> return home on Thursdays and occasionally fly to a business meeting.
>
All the hours are personal with %75 x/c. I work for a company that
won't allow travel in GA unless you have senior VP approval even though
we are one of the largest aviation related companies in the world. go
figure.

[Tony]

A long time ago (about 1980?) someone told me a special rating was
needed to fly over the outback, that my USA Private SEL Instruments
wasn't good enough. Did he have it backwards? It sounds like the rating
needed for flying in uncontrolled airspace there is easier to get than
one that might be used for controlled.

I would guess a bit less than hour a week could keep you pretty sharp
for VFR flights, but if it was 3 hours once a month it might be a
different story. One of my flying friends is pretty good at telling if
I've not been at the controls for three or four weeks, and if he flies
with me after I've just returned from a 10 or 15 hour flying time trip
he claims I'm almost as good as a real pilot like him. All's fair,
because we fly safety and check pilot for each other, and the game is
to put the pilot being tested head down under the hood, try to
disorient him, then say "the airplane is yours."


On Jan 26, 3:30 pm, "d&tm" > wrote:
> "Tony" > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've checked my log book, and it looks like almost all of my flights
> > are XC of one sort or another. That is, the airplane is pretty much
> > used the way I use my car. It's a convenient way to make a trip that's
> > a few hundred to a thousand miles long. Not all of the trips are
> > necessary (just as not all of the car trips I make are necessary,
> > either). Very few flight legs terminate at the same airport as where
> > the flight started.
>
> > If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
> > your usage profile like?
>
> > My sense, and it could be very wrong, is that we use GA as a tool:
> > there's no doubt we like flying, and probably like me you're happy to
> > be flying, but you have other things to do when you land. For instance,
> > a typical non-business flight for me to Nantucket Island (off Cape
> > Cod, MA, USA) and that brings back memories of cobblestone streets and
> > flowers in gardens behind fences, rather than the CAVU conditions of
> > the flight. It might bring back different memories if required an
> > approach to minimums in fog, but that would be the exception.
>
> > I expect glider pilots will have a different take -- as best I can
> > tell, that tribe makes no excuses, they fly for the sole pleasure of
> > flying.Perhaps we are the poor cousins but down under a lot of us PPLs are what we
> call weekend warriors, who might go out every other week for a 1 hour
> joyflight from the same airport. with hopefully a couple of x country trips
> every year. Many of you US posters would probably doubt we can keep up the
> necessary skills with maybe 40 hours per year but you need to bear in mind
> much lower traffic density, generally good weather and a fairly open
> terain. I have an outside controlled airspace license which lets me fly
> anywhere in the country apart from the controlled airpace around the major
> centers ( which still have smaller outside controlled airspace fields so it
> is not much of a restriction at all). I dont have to worry too much about
> ATC procedures... just being sure to stay out of the controlled airpsace. I
> just love the freedom of flying .. the journey is unimportant.
> terry.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

[Newps]

Peter R. wrote:

>
> 80% business, 15% charity, 5% personal, and all of these flights are x/c's
> using my Bonanza V35B.

I'm the exact opposite of you. 0% business and probably only around 25%
or less of the hours are cross country in my Bo. The rest go to
thrashing about the local dirt strips.

[Mxsmanic]

John Theune writes:

> I work for a company that
> won't allow travel in GA unless you have senior VP approval even though
> we are one of the largest aviation related companies in the world. go
> figure.

They're probably in a better position to know how dangerous GA is.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> John Theune writes:
>
>> I work for a company that
>> won't allow travel in GA unless you have senior VP approval even
>> though we are one of the largest aviation related companies in the
>> world. go figure.
>
> They're probably in a better position to know how dangerous GA is.

No they are probably in a better position to know what the company needs
donee company's insurance will cover and make the risk/reward decision.

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> No they are probably in a better position to know what the company needs
> donee company's insurance will cover and make the risk/reward decision.

The cost of insurance is directly related to the risk associated with
the activity.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Peter Dohm]

> > No they are probably in a better position to know what the company needs
> > donee company's insurance will cover and make the risk/reward decision.
>
> The cost of insurance is directly related to the risk associated with
> the activity.
>
Maybe in simulation. Certainly not IRL.

Peter

[Dan Luke]

"Tony" wrote:

> If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
> your usage profile like?
>

~120 hrs/yr

80% IFR cross country for business, personal travel and Angel Flight.

10% training & practice.

10% goofing around.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Vaughn Simon]

"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I expect glider pilots will have a different take -- as best I can
> tell, that tribe makes no excuses, they fly for the sole pleasure of
> flying.

That is exactly right. As transportation, a glider is just slightly more
practical than a hot air balloon.

I come from the glider world, but now mostly fly airplanes...just for the
sole pleasure of flying. Expense wise, taking a rental airplane on a long
x-country is a non-starter, so most of my x-country time consists of breakfast
runs.

Vaughn

[Peter R.]

On 1/26/2007 6:25:37 PM, "Dan Luke" wrote:

> ~120 hrs/yr
>
> 80% IFR cross country for business, personal travel and Angel Flight.
>
> 10% training & practice.
>
> 10% goofing around.

And how many NASA forms? :) I have two in about 1,100 hours.

--
Peter

[Steve Schneider]

Tony wrote:
> If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
> your usage profile like?

About 5% are "overhead" (post maintenance test flights, currency, BFR)
About 10% are charity (Young Eagles and other donated flights)
About 85% are cross country family trips

We do use the plane much like many others would use a family car or a
motor home. It allows for trips and activities that would not otherwise
be possible due to driving time, or commercial aviation shortcomings (no
commercial service to destination/lack of seats on short notice/high
cost for 4-6 seats/flight times/etc).

We can pack much more into a weekend, such as being in town for a
commitment like one of my kids' baseball or soccer games AND visit the
grandparents in Phoenix (P19) or hit the ski slopes in Mammoth or Big
Bear.

With the traffic problems in Southern California, the time benefit of
flying can be pretty substantial. A friend from work drove up to Big
Bear to spend New Years with us (we'd flown up before Christmas). We
both went home on January 1st. It took us 30 minutes to fly home (58nm
L35 to L18). It took him 4 hours to drive back with all of the holiday
traffic. Even without traffic it takes over 2 hours to drive the 110sm
by road.

Steve

PS -- Just recently learned that www.bigbearairporthouse.com (I have no
affiliation with them) has a picture from their web cam at the bottom of
their page which shows our Lance parked in the snow behind their
property back in December. I can just imagine the call from my boss "If
your home sick, how come I see your plane on the web cam at Big Bear?!" :-)

[Mxsmanic]

Peter Dohm writes:

> Maybe in simulation. Certainly not IRL.

It certainly worked that way when I worked in the insurance industry,
in real life.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[d&tm]

"Tony" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> A long time ago (about 1980?) someone told me a special rating was
> needed to fly over the outback, that my USA Private SEL Instruments
> wasn't good enough. Did he have it backwards? It sounds like the rating
> needed for flying in uncontrolled airspace there is easier to get than
> one that might be used for controlled.

Tony, no special rating is required to fly in the outback, although
certainly there are some special procedures to follow like mandatory ELB
requirements in designated remote areas. The outside controlled airspace
license is basically identical to the normal PPL with the exception that you
are not tested on controlled airspace procedures and thus you do not have
the priviledge of entering them. A key part of the training and testing is
obviously the ability to know where these areas are. Crossing into
controlled airspace is an automatic failure on the test. If you have a need
to use controlled airspace you can simply do this training seperately , get
tested on it and have your PPL endorsed.
I have not flown into the real Aussie outback myself but I plan to in the
next couple of years. Probably the best way to do this is on organised
tours. There is at least one outfit here where you can tag along in your
own plane with a group of very experienced outback pilots , with
accomodation, meals tours etc organised. They typically last 10 to 12 days
with 3 to 4 hours of flying each day. I have read some great trip reports
from these tours.

terry

[Morgans]

"d&tm" > wrote

> I have not flown into the real Aussie outback myself but I plan to in the
> next couple of years. Probably the best way to do this is on organised
> tours. There is at least one outfit here where you can tag along in your
> own plane with a group of very experienced outback pilots , with
> accomodation, meals tours etc organised. They typically last 10 to 12
> days
> with 3 to 4 hours of flying each day. I have read some great trip reports
> from these tours.

As I recall, one of our own flying couples (don't remember who, now) went on
one of those things. They loved it, I remember.

The problem is, that soon thereafter, some new regulations were put into
place, that would make such an outing nearly impossible.

Something like needing to stay a certain amount of time before using the
privilege of transferred certificate? Someone will jump in with the
details. I don't remember enough to search on it.
--
Jim in NC

[BT]

>
> I expect glider pilots will have a different take -- as best I can
> tell, that tribe makes no excuses, they fly for the sole pleasure of
> flying.
>

Sail planes are like sail boats..
they are there for the enjoyment..
and the challenge..

It's just you and "mother nature"

BT

[d&tm]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "d&tm" > wrote
>
> > I have not flown into the real Aussie outback myself but I plan to in
the
> > next couple of years. Probably the best way to do this is on organised
> > tours. There is at least one outfit here where you can tag along in
your
> > own plane with a group of very experienced outback pilots , with
> > accomodation, meals tours etc organised. They typically last 10 to 12
> > days
> > with 3 to 4 hours of flying each day. I have read some great trip
reports
> > from these tours.
>
> As I recall, one of our own flying couples (don't remember who, now) went
on
> one of those things. They loved it, I remember.
>
> The problem is, that soon thereafter, some new regulations were put into
> place, that would make such an outing nearly impossible.
>
> Something like needing to stay a certain amount of time before using the
> privilege of transferred certificate? Someone will jump in with the
> details. I don't remember enough to search on it.
> --
Jim
Just checked the requirements on the CASA site ( Civil aviation safety
authority). There are 2 different processes. if you want to fly more than 3
months you require a special pilot license. Less than 3 months there is a
less cumbersome process called a Certificate of Validation. For all the
details just go to the CASA site and search for foreign license.
http://casa.gov.au/fcl/overbr.htm#validation
Knowing CASA you would probably want to start getting things in train 6
months before coming over.
terry

[Tony]

Ain't nothing in the regs that says you can't smile broadly while doing
business. It's odd how so many trips require our presence somewhere
really interesting on a Friday, and again on the following Monday,
isn't it?



On Jan 27, 2:20 am, Nomen Nescio > wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: "Tony" >
>
> >what is
> >your usage profile like?It's, uh, er, um, all business flights. (wink)
>
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[Dan Luke]

"Peter R." wrote:


> And how many NASA forms? :) I have two in about 1,100 hours.
>

None...yet.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Peter R.]

On 1/27/2007 7:24:31 AM, "Dan Luke" wrote:

> "Peter R." wrote:
>
>
> > And how many NASA forms? :) I have two in about 1,100 hours.
> >
>
> None...yet.

Well, to be fair I should point out that one of them was my attempt to report
two airports separated by about 40nm having their AWOS's on the same
frequency, which made it difficult when flying IFR to the farther airport as
the first overpowered the second until 20nm out from the second.

--
Peter

[john smith]

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:
> As I recall, one of our own flying couples (don't remember who, now) went on
> one of those things. They loved it, I remember.

Ron & Margie Natalie, two years ago

[Morgans]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Morgans" > wrote:
>> As I recall, one of our own flying couples (don't remember who, now) went
>> on
>> one of those things. They loved it, I remember.
>
> Ron & Margie Natalie, two years ago

I had a sneaking suspicion it was them, but couldn't remember for sure.

I thought I also remember them saying that according to present rule, they
would not be able to do it, now.
--
Jim in NC

[B A R R Y]

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:25:09 -0800, "BT" > wrote:

>
>Sail planes are like sail boats..
>they are there for the enjoyment..
>and the challenge..

Gliding is high on my list of future add-ons, 100% for fun.

I like the way you kind of "wear" the gliders I've seen, as well as
look forward to the lack of engine noise and vibration. <G>

[Bill Watson]

I've got a little over 1,000 hours in both gliders and light GA.

Soaring was for the challenge and the camaraderie- first staying up (and
talking about it), then going somewhere (and talking about it), then
going somewhere fast (and talking about)... and landing in unexpected
locations (and talking about it).

Sailplane racing is a peak experience - like sailing in 3D.

Light plane flying has been a traveling experience. Living with your
plane means the car often never leaves the driveway for several weekends
at a time. Even with a relatively slow plane, we can go at least twice
as fast as a car to almost any destination 1+ flight hour away. Few
destinations are aviation related. The southeastern US has become our
playground and extended neighborhood.

But having a destination and a desired schedule is also a great
challenge. That led to an IFR ticket and a fair amount of use. Trying
to get there, when you want, despite the weather, is very satisfying and
humbling.

And now I have about 900 hours of building time on an RV10. Another
great challenge. Try it if you can.

Tony wrote:
> I've checked my log book, and it looks like almost all of my flights
> are XC of one sort or another. That is, the airplane is pretty much
> used the way I use my car. It's a convenient way to make a trip that's
> a few hundred to a thousand miles long. Not all of the trips are
> necessary (just as not all of the car trips I make are necessary,
> either). Very few flight legs terminate at the same airport as where
> the flight started.
>
> If you're a fairly experienced pilot -- say 300 plus hours -- what is
> your usage profile like?
>
> My sense, and it could be very wrong, is that we use GA as a tool:
> there's no doubt we like flying, and probably like me you're happy to
> be flying, but you have other things to do when you land. For instance,
> a typical non-business flight for me to Nantucket Island (off Cape
> Cod, MA, USA) and that brings back memories of cobblestone streets and
> flowers in gardens behind fences, rather than the CAVU conditions of
> the flight. It might bring back different memories if required an
> approach to minimums in fog, but that would be the exception.
>
> I expect glider pilots will have a different take -- as best I can
> tell, that tribe makes no excuses, they fly for the sole pleasure of
> flying.
>

[Margy Natalie]

john smith wrote:
> In article >,
> "Morgans" > wrote:
>
>>As I recall, one of our own flying couples (don't remember who, now) went on
>>one of those things. They loved it, I remember.
>
>
> Ron & Margie Natalie, two years ago
The company we went with went out of business due partially to the new
regulations, but there is another one running the tours now. The new
regs have shaken out so it is possible, but plan well in advance (like a
year). We hope to go again sometime! It was GREAT.

Margy

[Stan Prevost]

We also went with Goanna, was sad to see them go out of business. Who is
doing it now? I was surprised that Mal didn't have any kind of checkout for
us, we just walked out on the grass and he said "OK, you have that airplane,
you have this one, etc.", we started up and flew, for sixteen days.

When I flew there in 2003, I don't think there was any "ouside controlled
airspace" license. My Aussie license didn't say anything like that, and we
flew into controlled airspace. I know there have been major changes since
then, and I haven't tracked them.

We did New Zealand in 2006, it was even better.

Stan


"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> john smith wrote:
>> In article >,
>> "Morgans" > wrote:
>>
>>>As I recall, one of our own flying couples (don't remember who, now) went
>>>on one of those things. They loved it, I remember.
>>
>>
>> Ron & Margie Natalie, two years ago
> The company we went with went out of business due partially to the new
> regulations, but there is another one running the tours now. The new regs
> have shaken out so it is possible, but plan well in advance (like a year).
> We hope to go again sometime! It was GREAT.
>
> Margy