Spooky flights

[Mxsmanic]

Sometimes some people get spooked when driving out in the middle of
nowhere (especially the desert southwest of the USA) for various
reasons. Obviously darkness, isolation, and a lack of signs of
civilization and humanity can play a role in getting one's mind to
wander in the wrong directions. These must all be greatly magnified
when flying alone at night in relatively unpopulated regions.

Have any of you ever been slightly spooked while flying alone? (And
are you prepared to admit to it?)

They say the area around Groom Lake in Nevada is particularly prone to
do this. I recall someone else mentioning being out in the desert and
the only noise was the eerie sound of power windmills that went on for
miles, and after a while that got to him. I recall being on a hill
once (on a cycle, not in the air) and accidentally thinking about
stories of alien abductions, and reflecting on the fact that I was in
exactly the situation that most abductees described when the little
green men came to call. That was a mistake, but I did make unusually
good time getting back into town.

A related question is whether or not you've ever seen anything in the
sky while flying alone at night that truly did not match any type of
airborne craft you could think of.

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[Allan9]

Think about what you see or think you see while working in a contro tower at
night
Al


"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Sometimes some people get spooked when driving out in the middle of
> nowhere (especially the desert southwest of the USA) for various
> reasons. Obviously darkness, isolation, and a lack of signs of
> civilization and humanity can play a role in getting one's mind to
> wander in the wrong directions. These must all be greatly magnified
> when flying alone at night in relatively unpopulated regions.
>
>

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:40:53 -0500, "Allan9" >
wrote:

>Think about what you see or think you see while working in a contro tower at
>night

Visions of a nice soft, warm bed.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Mxsmanic]

Allan9 writes:

> Think about what you see or think you see while working in a contro tower at
> night

I had not considered that. I suppose if one is working the tower
alone at night, and there's no traffic, and one is in an isolated
area, one might get a bit spooked at times, especially if things other
than recognizable aircraft appear in the sky. But at least you can
readily leave the tower if necessary (although I guess the tractor
beam of the Borg could still sweep across the parking lot and snatch
you up). In an aircraft, you can't just open the door and get out
while in flight, so if you get a chill down your spine or a bright
green light starts scanning the cockpit, you're stuck.

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[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Allan9 writes:
>
> > Think about what you see or think you see while working in a contro tower
> > at
> > night
>
> I had not considered that. I suppose if one is working the tower
> alone at night, and there's no traffic, and one is in an isolated
> area, one might get a bit spooked at times, especially if things other
> than recognizable aircraft appear in the sky. But at least you can
> readily leave the tower if necessary (although I guess the tractor
> beam of the Borg could still sweep across the parking lot and snatch
> you up). In an aircraft, you can't just open the door and get out
> while in flight, so if you get a chill down your spine or a bright
> green light starts scanning the cockpit, you're stuck.

If that bright green light starts scanning your cockpit, DON'T LOOK AT
IT!

It is probably a green laser, with which there have been several
illuminations of aircraft, with temporary to permanent eye damage.

The son of a friend of mine had it happen, although his eye damage
appears to be temporary. The crew in the plane behind him nmay have
permanent damage, however.

[Mxsmanic]

Orval Fairbairn writes:

> If that bright green light starts scanning your cockpit, DON'T LOOK AT
> IT!
>
> It is probably a green laser, with which there have been several
> illuminations of aircraft, with temporary to permanent eye damage.

Unfortunately, laser beams are so thin that you might not notice it
before it hits you.

Were they really green lasers? Did anyone ever find out who was using
them?

> The son of a friend of mine had it happen, although his eye damage
> appears to be temporary. The crew in the plane behind him nmay have
> permanent damage, however.

What was the situation?

I recall a rash of these attacks (because attacks is what they are)
some time ago, and then it seemed to quiet down. Unfortunately, I
can't think of any simple way to protect against laser attacks.
Throwing anyone who does one into a Supermax might serve as a
deterrent, though.

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[Tony]

MX offered the opinon that

"Unfortunately, laser beams are so thin that you might not notice it
before it hits you."

There are a couple of problems with that statement. 1 if the beam is
that thin it would take exquisite marksmanship to hit someone's eye,
and 2 - visibility of a green laser beam is very high and it will
bloom big time on the windscreen, for example. I know of no windscreen
that's of a sufficient optical quality so as to not have that happen.
Off axis scattering in atmospheric transmissions is a serious problem
for high power lasers.

There would probably be an instinctive glance towards the source of
that pretty green light at night.

Infra red lasers would be a different sort of problem.

There was some stuff going on, maybe in Nevada, where very high
powered lasers were being used to perhaps target the moon, and there
were temporary restrictions on that airspace. (1970s or early 80s).
These were big power hungry lasers though, not the sort of thing that
are easily available for bad guys.

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> There are a couple of problems with that statement. 1 if the beam is
> that thin it would take exquisite marksmanship to hit someone's eye ...

True, but if you spread the beam, its intensity drops very rapidly.
Also, you need glass to spread the beam, and you'd need a way to focus
it so that it would be wide enough to sweep the cockpit but narrow
enough to not lose too much intensity. (Of course, if this is a
60-kilowatt laser, intensity shouldn't be a problem, but I don't know
what the bad guys have been using.)

Maybe they swept the cockpit in a pattern very rapidly? I wonder how
they managed to hit the pilots in the eyes with a collimated beam.

If they were really evil, they could use a laser outside the visible
light range. The pilots' eyes would be damaged and they wouldn't even
know why.

> Off axis scattering in atmospheric transmissions is a serious problem
> for high power lasers.

Just what kind of lasers have these people been using, and where are
they getting them?

I have a strong aversion to laser light shows. Even when projected on
a screen, the beams are highly collimated, and if the screen is
specular (as many projection screens are), you can still get bits of
the beam aiming straight at you.

> There would probably be an instinctive glance towards the source of
> that pretty green light at night.

Yes, looking towards a bright light is a reflex, but not always a safe
one.

> Infra red lasers would be a different sort of problem.

Yes, as above.

> There was some stuff going on, maybe in Nevada, where very high
> powered lasers were being used to perhaps target the moon, and there
> were temporary restrictions on that airspace. (1970s or early 80s).
> These were big power hungry lasers though, not the sort of thing that
> are easily available for bad guys.

There are corner-cube reflectors on the moon that can be used to
bounce lasers. The beams spread to a mile or two at their
destination, IIRC, so they have to be pretty strong.

Not only is a laser attack bad in the same way that any other attack
is bad, but it's also especially evil in that it can leave a pilot
blind, which is probably about one of the worst things that can happen
to a pilot, above and beyond the fact that it would obviously end his
flying days.

I think Shuttle pilots have been blasted by lasers, too, but I don't
remember the details.

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[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> I have a strong aversion to laser light shows. Even when projected on
> a screen, the beams are highly collimated, and if the screen is
> specular (as many projection screens are), you can still get bits of
> the beam aiming straight at you.


Is there anything out in the real world that you aren't afraid of Anthony?

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> Is there anything out in the real world that you aren't afraid of Anthony?

You answered my helicopter question without a personal attack, so I
remain optimistic.

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[Kev]

On Jan 28, 11:34 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Have any of you ever been slightly spooked while flying alone? (And
> are you prepared to admit to it?)

Spooked? Yes, but not in the way you mean. When the engine pulls
the usual "You're in the middle of nowhere, so I'm going to burp once
or twice just to get your attention", then yes I've asked ATC for
higher just in case :-)

When I was much younger and drove long lonely distances at night, I
used to sometimes get that creepy feeling that there was someone
(thing?) in the back seat. I can't imagine how bad that feeling would
be in an aircraft :) :) Fortunately, planes don't do that to me.

Kev

[Mxsmanic]

Kev writes:

> When I was much younger and drove long lonely distances at night, I
> used to sometimes get that creepy feeling that there was someone
> (thing?) in the back seat. I can't imagine how bad that feeling would
> be in an aircraft :) :) Fortunately, planes don't do that to me.

Of course, now you'll have that to think about on your next flight.
Don't pick up any hitchhikers.

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[Jay Honeck]

> Have any of you ever been slightly spooked while flying alone? (And
> are you prepared to admit to it?)

Right after I got my Private, I was called for a job interview at a
newspaper in Beloit, WI.

Hot **** new pilot me, I wasn't about to *drive* to my interview, no
sir. Even though I lived in Racine, WI, just an hour or two away, I
was going to exercise my rights as an airman, and save myself that
"long" drive. It was the dead of winter, and cold.

Well, the interview went well, and long, and I didn't get back to the
rental Cherokee 140 until after dark. Luckily I had a small
flashlight in my flight bag, but it was a moonless night, so I had
trouble just *finding* the plane on the dark ramp.

Once inside the plane, it was absolutely inky black, and after
starting the plane I waited an interminably long period for my eyes to
adjust and fully open up in the dark. This night vision, of course,
was instantly blown away the moment I turned on the landing light, but
it didn't matter -- soon I was trundling down the snow-drift-lined
runway, waiting for the magic of Bernoulli to begin...

As I lifted off, and the Cherokee's stock landing lights meager
reflection on the ground receded, I was suddenly and completely
engulfed in a dark, velvety blackness, darker than anything I'd ever
seen. It was darker than the darkest ink, like being in a cave far
underground. I could see nothing, I could feel nothing, I had no
sensation of motion or anything except the sound of the motor.

The dim lights of the instruments seemed to float in this ultimate
blackness, and I felt completely disembodied. I was floating either
in or outside my body -- there was no way to tell -- and I may as well
have been a brain floating in a bubbling vat of chemicals, this new
world seemed so foreign. It took every ounce of effort to come back
to my senses, and to get on the gauges.

Within 15 seconds I had climbed high enough to see enough lights to
create a "horizon", and everything snapped back to normal -- but those
were 15 very long (and weird) seconds, indeed.

Of course, then I had to land on my 2300' long by 30' wide home field
runway, in the dark -- but that's a different story.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger[_4_]]

On 29 Jan 2007 19:51:11 -0800, "Kev" > wrote:

>
>
>On Jan 28, 11:34 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> Have any of you ever been slightly spooked while flying alone? (And
>> are you prepared to admit to it?)
>
Ive spent many hours flying alone and in the dark, both VFR and IFR.
I've never felt spooked. Rather it's quite peaceful and can be very
picturesque. Other times there is nothing to see at all and you have
to turn the stobes off to prevent "flicker vertigo". When the only
thing you see with each flash is featureless white it can be very
disorienting.

>Spooked? Yes, but not in the way you mean. When the engine pulls
>the usual "You're in the middle of nowhere, so I'm going to burp once
>or twice just to get your attention", then yes I've asked ATC for
>higher just in case :-)
>
>When I was much younger and drove long lonely distances at night, I

When I was much younger I burnt the candle at both ends so much I
needed something to keep me awake while driving.

>used to sometimes get that creepy feeling that there was someone
>(thing?) in the back seat. I can't imagine how bad that feeling would
>be in an aircraft :) :) Fortunately, planes don't do that to me.
>
>Kev
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[C J Campbell]

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:51:11 -0800, Kev wrote
(in article om>):

>
>
> On Jan 28, 11:34 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> Have any of you ever been slightly spooked while flying alone? (And
>> are you prepared to admit to it?)
>
> Spooked? Yes, but not in the way you mean. When the engine pulls
> the usual "You're in the middle of nowhere, so I'm going to burp once
> or twice just to get your attention", then yes I've asked ATC for
> higher just in case :-)

On long over-water flights we used to say that there was nothing to worry
about unless you could see sharks following the plane.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Tony]

A unique feeling is being dropped off at a remote airport late at
night then hanging around while the airplane leaves. The experience of
seeing that little cluster of lights go down the runway, lift off,
then go away has always touched something deep in me.

The other side of that coin is being the PIC. I never felt that after
dropping someone off, being sure he (or she) got to their car, going
out to the active and leaving. Instead it's a full, ego satisfying
feeling to climb 500 or 1000 feet, pressing the mike button and saying
"New York Center, Mooney XYZ is back with you, climbing out of one
thousand five hundred."


On Jan 30, 12:02 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Have any of you ever been slightly spooked while flying alone? (And
> > are you prepared to admit to it?)Right after I got my Private, I was called for a job interview at a
> newspaper in Beloit, WI.
>
> Hot **** new pilot me, I wasn't about to *drive* to my interview, no
> sir. Even though I lived in Racine, WI, just an hour or two away, I
> was going to exercise my rights as an airman, and save myself that
> "long" drive. It was the dead of winter, and cold.
>
> Well, the interview went well, and long, and I didn't get back to the
> rental Cherokee 140 until after dark. Luckily I had a small
> flashlight in my flight bag, but it was a moonless night, so I had
> trouble just *finding* the plane on the dark ramp.
>
> Once inside the plane, it was absolutely inky black, and after
> starting the plane I waited an interminably long period for my eyes to
> adjust and fully open up in the dark. This night vision, of course,
> was instantly blown away the moment I turned on the landing light, but
> it didn't matter -- soon I was trundling down the snow-drift-lined
> runway, waiting for the magic of Bernoulli to begin...
>
> As I lifted off, and the Cherokee's stock landing lights meager
> reflection on the ground receded, I was suddenly and completely
> engulfed in a dark, velvety blackness, darker than anything I'd ever
> seen. It was darker than the darkest ink, like being in a cave far
> underground. I could see nothing, I could feel nothing, I had no
> sensation of motion or anything except the sound of the motor.
>
> The dim lights of the instruments seemed to float in this ultimate
> blackness, and I felt completely disembodied. I was floating either
> in or outside my body -- there was no way to tell -- and I may as well
> have been a brain floating in a bubbling vat of chemicals, this new
> world seemed so foreign. It took every ounce of effort to come back
> to my senses, and to get on the gauges.
>
> Within 15 seconds I had climbed high enough to see enough lights to
> create a "horizon", and everything snapped back to normal -- but those
> were 15 very long (and weird) seconds, indeed.
>
> Of course, then I had to land on my 2300' long by 30' wide home field
> runway, in the dark -- but that's a different story.
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[C J Campbell]

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:34:09 -0800, Mxsmanic wrote
(in article >):

> Sometimes some people get spooked when driving out in the middle of
> nowhere (especially the desert southwest of the USA) for various
> reasons. Obviously darkness, isolation, and a lack of signs of
> civilization and humanity can play a role in getting one's mind to
> wander in the wrong directions. These must all be greatly magnified
> when flying alone at night in relatively unpopulated regions.
>
> Have any of you ever been slightly spooked while flying alone? (And
> are you prepared to admit to it?)

Not while flying alone. It is easier to spook your fellow crewmembers. Not
that I would do such a thing, of course, but odd noises, little puffs of
smoke coming out of odd panels, ghost stories on dark spooky nights with St.
Elmo's fire crawling up the windscreen, instrument needles moving in odd
ways: these things are fairly easy to engineer or take advantage of. But as I
say, I would never dream of it. "Um, was that prop flux?" "WHERE?!?" There.
There it was again." "I DIDN'T SEE IT, WHERE?" Things like that seemed to
happen a lot to new command pilots on their first long overwater, for example
-- the "cherry ride."

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> A unique feeling is being dropped off at a remote airport late at
> night then hanging around while the airplane leaves. The experience of
> seeing that little cluster of lights go down the runway, lift off,
> then go away has always touched something deep in me.

I can say the same for watching just about any aircraft take off.
Rotation is always the best part, as the wheels rise off the ground
and the aircraft leaves the runway, and goes up and up until it's
invisible.

In the days when the U.S. was still a free country, I liked to go to
the airport just to watch aircraft take off and land. I even liked it
when I was very young: I would insist that my parents take me to the
noisy, open observation deck so that I could see planes take off and
land. And I liked the smell of kerosene because it reminded me of
airplanes.

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[Jay Honeck]

> In the days when the U.S. was still a free country, I liked to go to
> the airport just to watch aircraft take off and land. I even liked it
> when I was very young: I would insist that my parents take me to the
> noisy, open observation deck so that I could see planes take off and
> land. And I liked the smell of kerosene because it reminded me of
> airplanes.

I don't know what part of the country you lived in, but we still do
all of that today, right here in the USA. Any time we'd like!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> I don't know what part of the country you lived in, but we still do
> all of that today, right here in the USA.

I lived in the Great American Southwest, right near a Class B.

> Any time we'd like!

You're lucky.

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[Jay Honeck]

> > I don't know what part of the country you lived in, but we still do
> > all of that today, right here in the USA.
>
> I lived in the Great American Southwest, right near a Class B.
>
> > Any time we'd like!
>
> You're lucky.

Well, I was lucky to be born here -- I'll give you that -- but
otherwise, there's no luck involved.

Don't believe all the hype you read in France. The War on Terror (or
whatever CNN has dubbed it this week) has had virtually no impact on
most Americans. My life is exactly, precisely, 100% the same in every
way today as it was on 9/10/01.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger[_4_]]

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:22:10 -0800, C J Campbell
> wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:51:11 -0800, Kev wrote
>(in article om>):
>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 28, 11:34 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>> Have any of you ever been slightly spooked while flying alone? (And
>>> are you prepared to admit to it?)
>>
>> Spooked? Yes, but not in the way you mean. When the engine pulls
>> the usual "You're in the middle of nowhere, so I'm going to burp once
>> or twice just to get your attention", then yes I've asked ATC for
>> higher just in case :-)
>
>On long over-water flights we used to say that there was nothing to worry
>about unless you could see sharks following the plane.

Lake Michigan? No sharks, but it smells like fish when you get low


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On 31 Jan 2007 06:51:53 -0800, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>> In the days when the U.S. was still a free country, I liked to go to
>> the airport just to watch aircraft take off and land. I even liked it
>> when I was very young: I would insist that my parents take me to the
>> noisy, open observation deck so that I could see planes take off and
>> land. And I liked the smell of kerosene because it reminded me of
>> airplanes.
>
>I don't know what part of the country you lived in, but we still do
>all of that today, right here in the USA. Any time we'd like!

Yup. We're in the process of building a picnic area..er...Have to
call it a "viewing area" or parks and recreation gets involved. We're
going to move the fence and create a large viewing area with picnic
tables.. or tables that look something like picnic tables, along with
stuff for the kids to climb on, as soon as the ground thaws and dries
out enough so we don't lose any trucks.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jay Beckman]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On 31 Jan 2007 06:51:53 -0800, "Jay Honeck" >
> wrote:
>
>>> In the days when the U.S. was still a free country, I liked to go to
>>> the airport just to watch aircraft take off and land. I even liked it
>>> when I was very young: I would insist that my parents take me to the
>>> noisy, open observation deck so that I could see planes take off and
>>> land. And I liked the smell of kerosene because it reminded me of
>>> airplanes.
>>
>>I don't know what part of the country you lived in, but we still do
>>all of that today, right here in the USA. Any time we'd like!
>
> Yup. We're in the process of building a picnic area..er...Have to
> call it a "viewing area" or parks and recreation gets involved. We're
> going to move the fence and create a large viewing area with picnic
> tables.. or tables that look something like picnic tables, along with
> stuff for the kids to climb on, as soon as the ground thaws and dries
> out enough so we don't lose any trucks.
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

Make sure they stick an industrial-grade speaker out there and relay the
CTAF.

A really big hit in places where I've seen/heard it done.

Jay B

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Don't believe all the hype you read in France. The War on Terror (or
> whatever CNN has dubbed it this week) has had virtually no impact on
> most Americans. My life is exactly, precisely, 100% the same in every
> way today as it was on 9/10/01.

I gather you don't fly around D.C. much, and it doesn't sound like you
fly commercially very often.

However, what you say makes it easier to understand how the current
President got reelected. You don't know what you've got until it's
gone.

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[Mxsmanic]

Roger writes:

> Yup. We're in the process of building a picnic area..er...Have to
> call it a "viewing area" or parks and recreation gets involved.

I thought it was a free country. Why can't you call it a picnic area?

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[Jay Honeck]

> I gather you don't fly around D.C. much, and it doesn't sound like you
> fly commercially very often.

You know, I've heard this a lot, since 9/11, and I'm tired of it. GA
flying in the DC area (other than in the prohibited areas around the
Mall) requires an ADIZ flight plan. You make a phone call, get a
squawk code, and go.

I know, because I've done it.

You know how that differs from the way I fly here, in the wide-open
Midwest? Here it is -- *here* is the big change: I don't have to
make the phone call, first -- period. I get my squawk code over the
radio.

If *that* is what you mean by "we've lost all of our freedoms", I
submit that you are disconnected from reality. Of course, many other
posters here have already established this fact.

As far as flying commercially goes, commercial aviation is booming.
Apparently no Americans have stopped flying commercially because of
all their "lost freedoms".

Security has been tightened -- period. It's still not as tight as it
is on Israeli or some Arab airlines, however.

> However, what you say makes it easier to understand how the current
> President got reelected. You don't know what you've got until it's
> gone.

You really do need to read something other than internet blogs for
your news, Anthony. NOTHING has changed for 99.9% of Americans.
Nothing.

We still get up and go wherever we want, whenever we want, with
whomever we want. Mary and I can hop in my plane and fly to Wyoming
this afternoon, and no laws prevent it.

Hell, I don't even have to talk to anyone on the radio while I'm in
the air, if I don't want to.

Try doing *that* in France, freedom-boy. You won't get far.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Yup. We're in the process of building a picnic area..er...Have to
> call it a "viewing area" or parks and recreation gets involved. We're
> going to move the fence and create a large viewing area with picnic
> tables

Hey, we're doing that here in Iowa City, too! And, yup, we couldn't
call it a "picnic area" for the same reason.

The fence was moved last summer, and we'll be adding picnic tables and
playground equipment later this spring. It's going to be a great draw
for bringing families to the airport!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > I gather you don't fly around D.C. much, and it doesn't sound like you
> > fly commercially very often.
>
> You know, I've heard this a lot, since 9/11, and I'm tired of it. GA
> flying in the DC area (other than in the prohibited areas around the
> Mall) requires an ADIZ flight plan. You make a phone call, get a
> squawk code, and go.
>
> I know, because I've done it.

It's easy to do it once or twice, but doing it every day for years is a
different story. People get violated on a fairly regular basis, even
though they didn't do anything wrong. Equipment hicups, controller
errors, etc are all blamed on the pilot. If you live in the DC area,
there's a good chance it'll eventually get you. I've even known a head
flight instructor of a flight school, that flys in the ADIZ multiple
times a day, get violated. Here's a little story that I got off the
DCpilot's discussion group just this morning:

----------------------------------------------------------------

Subj: Latest ADIZ Fiasco for my colleague - a ROYAL screwing

The forces of darkness didn't even use vaseline this
time..........................

Departing JYO thru Chesapeake sector VFR on a Saturday last year going
to ACY, the PIC (a good friend and colleague) called 'clear of the ADIZ'
once he felt he was more than a mile outside the boundary, according to
a (current and updated) KLN-94 database. The controller responded and
advised him to 'Squawk 1200'. He did so, and the aircraft continued on
to ACY. The PIC is a 6,000 hour former military pilot with several years
in the area, and several hundred hours in this aircraft, which he owns.

According to the writeup, the controller claims "I noticed after talking
to him that he was still 1/2 mile inside". ( I think someone called the
controller on it). There was a supervisor at the station at the time. I
think (here's the conspiracy theory) that the forces of darkness called
on the DEN and claimed he was still in. That's my opinion, I could be
wrong.

PIC was advised by ACY tower, after landing, to call land line. ACY Twr
advised he had violated the ADIZ and gave him the number for PCT. Upon
calling, was advised he was still 'inside the ADIZ when he switched,
according to radar'. (I smell the forces of darkness here...........) He
asked them to save the tapes, but didn't specify radar. They only saved
the voice tape.

At the hearing, they did NOT produce a radar picture, they would NOT
accept his ASRS form (claiming it didn't apply since he had a violation
two years ago), and said it was his responsibility to prove he was
actually out. Since the controller violated him, and the PIC doesn't
have recording capability on his GPS, there's no defense. He received a
120 day suspension of his license because he did what the controller
said to do.

RECOMMENDATION: DO NOT, under ANY circumstance, offer to PCT that you're
clear of the ADIZ. Let them tell you. The sad fact of the matter is that
no matter how good things seem to be getting (and Shenandoah sector is
getting TONS better lately, IMHO), the Gubmint is out to get us, and the
FAA is the pawn of the Forces of Darkness.

Hope this helps others avoid the mess.......

----------------------------------------------------------------


--- Jay


--

Jay Masino "Home is where My critters are"
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

[Jay Honeck]

> It's easy to do it once or twice, but doing it every day for years is a
> different story. People get violated on a fairly regular basis, even
> though they didn't do anything wrong. Equipment hicups, controller
> errors, etc are all blamed on the pilot. If you live in the DC area,
> there's a good chance it'll eventually get you. I've even known a head
> flight instructor of a flight school, that flys in the ADIZ multiple
> times a day, get violated. Here's a little story that I got off the
> DCpilot's discussion group just this morning:

> The forces of darkness didn't even use vaseline this
> time..........................

<Scary story snipped>

I know it's a PIA to have to make a phone call before every flight.
It's an ineffective rule, and I would not like it much, either.

But this is far from validating MX's claim that America is no longer
"free". It's a relatively minor inconvenience that -- if it makes it
possible for us to still fly near Washington, D.C. -- seems like a
small price to pay.

Re: The story guy's experience in the ADIZ. I have no idea what
happened with this guy, but I've learned to take these things with a
large grain of salt. I've seen too many rules broken to automatically
believe one side of the story or another.

All I know is that I found it to be real no-brainer, little different
from how I fly in Iowa.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Try doing *that* in France, freedom-boy. You won't get far.
>

Well, I did try that. In fact, I do it often. And I do get far. All
across the country, in fact.

You don't know what you're talking about, country-boy. Sorry to burst
your bubble.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[C J Campbell]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:29:06 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article om>):

>> I gather you don't fly around D.C. much, and it doesn't sound like you
>> fly commercially very often.
>
> You know, I've heard this a lot, since 9/11, and I'm tired of it. GA
> flying in the DC area (other than in the prohibited areas around the
> Mall) requires an ADIZ flight plan. You make a phone call, get a
> squawk code, and go.

>
> If *that* is what you mean by "we've lost all of our freedoms", I
> submit that you are disconnected from reality. Of course, many other
> posters here have already established this fact.

Jay -- he believes that driving a radio controlled truck will teach you how
to drive a real one. He said so over in the student news group.

He has a problem that is relatively rare, but not unknown. The poor fellow
has never flown an airplane because he cannot, not even with an instructor.
He is possibly in full-time care.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Doug[_1_]]

I think the big diff is the TFR's. You never know when one is going to
spring up, so that means a call to Flight Service. Used to be I could
just get the urge to fly (kept the key to plane with me all the time),
go out to airport, and go! Can't do that anymore. Need to call FSS.
Small gripe I know, but it is a difference.

[Montblack]

("Jay Masino" wrote)
> At the hearing, they did NOT produce a radar picture, they would NOT
> accept his ASRS form (claiming it didn't apply since he had a violation
> two years ago), and said it was his responsibility to prove he was
> actually out. Since the controller violated him, and the PIC doesn't have
> recording capability on his GPS, there's no defense. He received a 120 day
> suspension of his license because he did what the controller said to do.


The scary thing in America is asking 50 year olds for an ID before they can
buy beer. Everything flows from that.

Bureaucratic regulations should be but one of the tools used, when a person
in a decision making position is asked to pass ...(wait for it) ...judgment.

A healthy balance of common sense, emotion, facts, intent, rules, and
precedent should ALL be considered.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089079/
Eleni (1985)

There is a spooky scene in "Eleni" where the commies have established
themselves in a 1949 Greek village. They set up a table and start
questioning the locals. The problem is, the people behind the table are
locals also.

"Next!" ....(wait for it) ...."Bang!"

Nothing said in defense of an accused, no answers to questions asked, seem
to matter.

"Next!"

The villagers were killing each other.


Montblack
Ok, back to beer sales. What's easier to fake, an ID or ...me? Are you
really sure the person is over 21, based on a government issued card, or can
you see for yourself a 47 year old standing before you and decide he's over
21? The goal here is "to be (Absolutely) sure," so which one makes more
sense? I mean why then would you believe what you see on a card, and not
what you see standing in front of you?

Answer: Because one decision you own, it's yours, you made the call. The
other you can pass off as just following orders.

[mad8]

On Feb 1, 9:29 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> We still get up and go wherever we want, whenever we want, with
> whomever we want. Mary and I can hop in my plane and fly to Wyoming
> this afternoon, and no laws prevent it.

but then you'd be in Wyoming

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> But this is far from validating MX's claim that America is no longer
> "free". It's a relatively minor inconvenience that -- if it makes it
> possible for us to still fly near Washington, D.C. -- seems like a
> small price to pay.

Although you might not remember it, it used to be possible to fly near
Washington D.C. even without the Thought Police.

The ADIZ contributes nothing to security. Bad guys can be right in
the center of that zone in a couple minutes, long before they can be
intercepted. And if they want to make double sure that their plans
work, they can just carry something very scary on board--that way,
whether they aim for the White House lawn themselves or get blowed up
good by the Cavalry, the scary stuff gets spread all over.

Even prohibiting flight entirely in the area would not change this.

But simpler still is for the bad guys to just use a motor vehicle, for
which there are no restrictions.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, I did try that. In fact, I do it often. And I do get far. All
> across the country, in fact.

"All across the country"!?? What's that, the same as me flying from
here to my sister's house in Michigan? Big deal.

I guess I didn't make my point clear. I'm talking about flying *cross-
country* here -- not flying within the borders of some insignificantly
small European country.

To illustrate, to fly from here to Thermopolis, Wyoming is around 850
miles. In contrast, for you to fly from Paris, France to Berlin,
Germany, is a paltry 473 miles. Face it, your playground is a lot
smaller than ours, Thomas, and we can go *anywhere in ours, without so
much as turning on the radio.

Try flying VFR from Paris to Berlin -- without talking to *anyone*,
either on the phone or in the air -- and see how far you get. You
will quickly find out that America really is still the "Land of the
Free" when compared to your European Union, or anywhere else in the
world, for that matter.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger[_4_]]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 01:14:01 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>
>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> On 31 Jan 2007 06:51:53 -0800, "Jay Honeck" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> In the days when the U.S. was still a free country, I liked to go to
>>>> the airport just to watch aircraft take off and land. I even liked it
>>>> when I was very young: I would insist that my parents take me to the
>>>> noisy, open observation deck so that I could see planes take off and
>>>> land. And I liked the smell of kerosene because it reminded me of
>>>> airplanes.
>>>
>>>I don't know what part of the country you lived in, but we still do
>>>all of that today, right here in the USA. Any time we'd like!
>>
>> Yup. We're in the process of building a picnic area..er...Have to
>> call it a "viewing area" or parks and recreation gets involved. We're
>> going to move the fence and create a large viewing area with picnic
>> tables.. or tables that look something like picnic tables, along with
>> stuff for the kids to climb on, as soon as the ground thaws and dries
>> out enough so we don't lose any trucks.
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Make sure they stick an industrial-grade speaker out there and relay the
>CTAF.

Yup, UNICOM is clearly audible over the entire transient area as well
as the proposed "viewing" area.
>
>A really big hit in places where I've seen/heard it done.
>
>Jay B
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> I guess I didn't make my point clear. I'm talking about flying *cross-
> country* here -- not flying within the borders of some insignificantly
> small European country.

France is approximately the size of Texas.

> Try flying VFR from Paris to Berlin -- without talking to *anyone*,
> either on the phone or in the air -- and see how far you get. You
> will quickly find out that America really is still the "Land of the
> Free" when compared to your European Union, or anywhere else in the
> world, for that matter.

Unless you want to set up a picnic area, apparently.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
<...>
> As far as flying commercially goes, commercial aviation is booming.
> Apparently no Americans have stopped flying commercially because of
> all their "lost freedoms".
<...>
>NOTHING has changed for 99.9% of Americans.
> Nothing.

By "Americans" I assume you mean "Americans that are sufficiently 'western'
in apperance, accent and name"...


--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
>> We still get up and go wherever we want, whenever we want, with whomever
>> we want. Mary and I can hop in my plane and fly to Wyoming this
>> afternoon, and no laws prevent it.


What part about flying somewhere warm don't you understand?


Montblocks-of-ice ....[]...[]...[]...[]

<http://ww2.saturn.stpaul.k12.mn.us/Kids/stories/yazminstories/wcstory.html>

<http://www.wintercarnival.com/saint_paul/winter_carnival/ice_palace/pictures.htm>

[mike regish]

I dunno. I used to park right off the end of the runway at BDL. Planes would
be maybe 200' over me on final. Can't do that anymore.

mike

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> In the days when the U.S. was still a free country, I liked to go to
>> the airport just to watch aircraft take off and land. I even liked it
>> when I was very young: I would insist that my parents take me to the
>> noisy, open observation deck so that I could see planes take off and
>> land. And I liked the smell of kerosene because it reminded me of
>> airplanes.
>
> I don't know what part of the country you lived in, but we still do
> all of that today, right here in the USA. Any time we'd like!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Beckman]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
...
>I dunno. I used to park right off the end of the runway at BDL. Planes
>would be maybe 200' over me on final. Can't do that anymore.
>
> mike

Why not?

Jay B

[mike regish]

My $30 round trips to BID just to spend a 1/2 hour on the beach and grab a
burger are gone. That's now a real consideration at around $100. Combination
of gas prices and the push for ethanol. Both somewhat related to Iraq which,
even though it's not in reality related to 9/11, has been decreed to be.

And with my balky radio and not-always-so-great handheld, I wouldn't go near
DC. They might shoot all 1500 pounds of me out of the sky.

"Nuclear" (rather "newcular") is also in the news every friggin' day, just
like when I was a kid my kids age.

I consider those things to be very significant changes in my life. Maybe I'm
just being too damn sensitive.

mike

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> I gather you don't fly around D.C. much, and it doesn't sound like you
>> fly commercially very often.
>
> You know, I've heard this a lot, since 9/11, and I'm tired of it. GA
> flying in the DC area (other than in the prohibited areas around the
> Mall) requires an ADIZ flight plan. You make a phone call, get a
> squawk code, and go.
>

[Mxsmanic]

mike regish writes:

> "Nuclear" (rather "newcular") is also in the news every friggin' day, just
> like when I was a kid my kids age.

Except that, when you were a kid, the threat was real.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Honeck]

> Unless you want to set up a picnic area, apparently.

No, that's not right, either. The reasons for the hassles setting up
a picnic area (at our airport, anyway) is that the FAA is VERY
paranoid about cities pulling a "Mayor Daley" on them, and claiming
that the airport is a "park".

This is how we lost Meigs Field in Chicago, and the FAA ain't playing
that game with anyone, now.

Thus, they simply won't even consider a "park" at an airport. You
have to call your picnic area a "viewing area", and it can NOT be
placed under the jurisdiction of your local parks and recreation
department.

Also, regarding picnics. For nine years Mary and I have made it a
habit to fly into little Iowa airports that do NOT have any
attractions nearby, in order to have a picnic on the field. We pack a
picnic basket full of goodies, land at a small, out of the way airport
(there are hundreds of them, so I don't think we'll ever hit them
all), deliver our hotel marketing goodies (brochures, posters, pens,
what-nots), and then throw a blanket down out in the grass and start
eating.

We've met some really nice people that way, and have never been
hassled. It's truly a little piece of Americana, and we love doing
it.

We've also camped next to our plane at airports all around the country
-- again, never with a hassle.

You've simply GOT to stop getting your news from blogs, Anthony. They
do not tell the truth about freedom in America.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim M]

>
> I know it's a PIA to have to make a phone call before every flight.
> It's an ineffective rule, and I would not like it much, either.

I live, work, and fly in the FRZ. The ADIZ is not just a PIA, it's
going to get someone killed (I would argue it already has). VFR
pilots have to report in at specific navaids, all at the same
altitude. It's a bit more than a PIA on a fine Saturday afternoon
when the controller is offline for some reason, and 20 or so GA
aircraft are all circling the same VOR, same altitude, with no
separation, stepping on each other and pleading for Potomac to pick up
so they can comply with the "squawk and talk" rule. It's a perfect
recipe for a midair.

IFR pilots now get routed via the "western tour", way out of their
way, since the controllers are busy with VFR traffic they've never
been staffed to deal with. While IFRers are burning all that avgas,
they get kept down low, out of the way, even in the summer bumpies
around the mountains. It's a little more than a PIA to clean up the
vomit from your passengers after one of those trips -- and you get
them every time.

I work within walking distance of an airport I can't land at. Flying
bombs (for that's what they've been used for) depart every 5 minutes
from DCA, but you can't land a C150 there for "security reasons."
Last month hundreds of pilots, fingerprinted and vetted, were denied
the use of their aircraft for 3 days straight in the FRZ because there
was a dead President in town.

But hey, you're tired of hearing it.

>
> It's a relatively minor inconvenience that -- if it makes it
> possible for us to still fly near Washington, D.C. -- seems like a
> small price to pay.
>

That's one of the most dangerous things you could possibly say. It's
always just "a small price to pay." And how small a price is
$250,000? That's the currently proposed fine for an ADIZ violation,
supported in Flying magazine by Richard Collins (thanks, Dick). And
that's for a violation for which you are guilty until proven
innocent. Hardly sounds like freedom to me.

So sit there all fat and happy in Iowa, Jay, while you can. BTW, the
new chair of the Senate Committee on Aviation Operations, Safety and
Security is on record as saying that he believes GA operations should
have the same security precautions as commercial operations. Can your
FBO in Iowa City afford a metal detector?

> Re: The story guy's experience in the ADIZ. I have no idea what
> happened with this guy, but I've learned to take these things with a
> large grain of salt.

Yeah. There are people who don't believe the Holocaust happened,
either.

> All I know is that I found it to be real no-brainer, little different
> from how I fly in Iowa.

I don't know how you fly, so I won't even comment on that one.

[Jay Honeck]

> But hey, you're tired of hearing it.

Yes, I am.

These are the flight conditions you guys who choose to live in and
around the Washington, DC area must contend with, and there's nothing
you can do about it, short of voting the *******s out of office (for
all the good *that* will do). After 5+ years, it's time to either
adapt -- or move. (I know several folks who have.)

Which is not to say that your points are not valid. I truly do
understand your frustration, and I truly am sorry the whole thing
continues -- but the point of mentioning it is simply this: MX said
"America is no longer free" since 9/11.

And I contend that -- other than you poor guys that are stuck in or
near that stupid ADIZ -- *nothing* has changed for the rest of us.

That would be the 99.9% of the country I was referring to.

And I'll stand by that assertion. I fly as often today -- actually
more -- than I did pre-9/11, and (so long as I avoid your area), I fly
with exactly the same rules, freedoms, and regulations as before. In
short, MX's contention is completely, utterly, and thankfully wrong.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> These are the flight conditions you guys who choose to live in and
> around the Washington, DC area must contend with, and there's nothing
> you can do about it, short of voting the *******s out of office (for
> all the good *that* will do).

That's hard to do, with all those farmers in Iowa voting them back
into office.

> And I contend that -- other than you poor guys that are stuck in or
> near that stupid ADIZ -- *nothing* has changed for the rest of us.

They will come for others first, and if you do nothing to prevent it,
eventually they will come for you, when there is no one else left to
prevent it.

> And I'll stand by that assertion. I fly as often today -- actually
> more -- than I did pre-9/11, and (so long as I avoid your area), I fly
> with exactly the same rules, freedoms, and regulations as before.

It's not saying much to be able to fly over empty farmland.

> In short, MX's contention is completely, utterly, and thankfully wrong.

Famous last words. Unfortunately this perception is all too
widespread.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> > Unless you want to set up a picnic area, apparently.
>
> No, that's not right, either. The reasons for the hassles setting up
> a picnic area (at our airport, anyway) is that the FAA is VERY
> paranoid about cities pulling a "Mayor Daley" on them, and claiming
> that the airport is a "park".
>
> This is how we lost Meigs Field in Chicago, and the FAA ain't playing
> that game with anyone, now.

The fact remains that you've lost a degree of freedom.

> Thus, they simply won't even consider a "park" at an airport. You
> have to call your picnic area a "viewing area", and it can NOT be
> placed under the jurisdiction of your local parks and recreation
> department.
>
> Also, regarding picnics. For nine years Mary and I have made it a
> habit to fly into little Iowa airports that do NOT have any
> attractions nearby, in order to have a picnic on the field. We pack a
> picnic basket full of goodies, land at a small, out of the way airport
> (there are hundreds of them, so I don't think we'll ever hit them
> all), deliver our hotel marketing goodies (brochures, posters, pens,
> what-nots), and then throw a blanket down out in the grass and start
> eating.
>
> We've met some really nice people that way, and have never been
> hassled. It's truly a little piece of Americana, and we love doing
> it.

Well, isn't that special. Unfortunately much of America doesn't work
that way.

> You've simply GOT to stop getting your news from blogs, Anthony. They
> do not tell the truth about freedom in America.

You've got to get out of Iowa sometime. By the time the loss of
freedom reaches you, it will be too late.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[[email protected]]

Jay Beckman > wrote:
> "Roger" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Yup. We're in the process of building a picnic area..er...Have to
>> call it a "viewing area" or parks and recreation gets involved.
>
> Make sure they stick an industrial-grade speaker out there and relay
> the CTAF. A really big hit in places where I've seen/heard it done.

I've, uh, "viewed" several lunches and dinners at the shelter area at
the local GA airport. I could tell basically what was going on by
watching, but it made more sense when I remembered to bring my scanner
with me. (It's a fairly busy, towered field though.)

I have pondered a few designs for a viewing area radio. You can always
hide the radio and the speaker way up in the rafters of the shelter,
which might protect them from vandalism. You can get fiberglass
electrical enclosures and if the signals are strong enough, you might
get away with an antenna entirely inside the enclosure. That way you've
only got two holes in the enclosure: juice coming in and speaker wires
going out. Depending on the location, you might want to have a timer
that shuts off the radio in the wee hours, if somebody might object.

For a busier field, I've thought of something like an old crystal-
controlled scanner in a Pelican case with a clear lid, plus external
speaker. Many of these scanners had an LED for each channel, and it
would be easy to make up a little placard for the LEDs showing which
channel is which, like "Tower", "Ground", etc. You could do the same
thing with a later-model scanner with a numeric LED or LCD, but then
(for most scanners) you'd need to provide a list of frequencies on
a placard and expect people to match up 123.45 on the scanner display
with 123.45 on the list. Either way, you have to put the radio down
lower so people can see it, and it might be more prone to damage.

Some people like to watch trains instead of airplanes and there are
apparently a couple of busy rail lines in Rochelle, Illinois. The city
built a shelter that has a scanner so people can listen to the trains;
you might talk to them to see what works and doesn't work.

Matt Roberds

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> not flying within the borders of some insignificantly
> small European country.
>

You're trying really hard to join MX in the club of village idiots,
arent't you? What's the purpose of turning to insults once someone
points out you're wrong?

As for the facts: So you cross an international border on the way from
Berlin to Paris. So you file a flight plan. That's it. Big deal. What's
that got to do with your assertion of less freedom? Zip! So the US is a
bigger country than the countries in Europe. What's that got to do
with your assertion of less freedom? Zip!

But you knew all that. You're just trying to insult people. Like MX.
Sad.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[mike regish]

They won't let you.

mike

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I dunno. I used to park right off the end of the runway at BDL. Planes
>>would be maybe 200' over me on final. Can't do that anymore.
>>
>> mike
>
> Why not?
>
> Jay B
>

[mike regish]

It's getting very real again.

mike

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish writes:
>
>> "Nuclear" (rather "newcular") is also in the news every friggin' day,
>> just
>> like when I was a kid my kids age.
>
> Except that, when you were a kid, the threat was real.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Honeck]

> > These are the flight conditions you guys who choose to live in and
> > around the Washington, DC area must contend with, and there's nothing
> > you can do about it, short of voting the *******s out of office (for
> > all the good *that* will do).
>
> That's hard to do, with all those farmers in Iowa voting them back
> into office.

That's pretty funny. Iowa (and the rest of the country) pretty much
did a clean-sweep of the Republicans in the last election.

It won't change anything. In fact, it will make things worse --
probably much worse.

> > And I contend that -- other than you poor guys that are stuck in or
> > near that stupid ADIZ -- *nothing* has changed for the rest of us.
>
> They will come for others first, and if you do nothing to prevent it,
> eventually they will come for you, when there is no one else left to
> prevent it.

??? Been reading too many mystery novels, Anthony? No one "comes
for others" here.

Hell, I wish they *would* round up some people -- but they won't. Any
one of us can point out half a dozen illegal aliens, living quite
openly, at any given time. Think there might be a number to call to
report them, and have them hauled back to the border? Maybe the
police? The FBI?

Nope. No one in authority cares -- they're "too busy" fighting the
war on drugs, or something. Which is why we have lost control of our
own borders.

> > And I'll stand by that assertion. I fly as often today -- actually
> > more -- than I did pre-9/11, and (so long as I avoid your area), I fly
> > with exactly the same rules, freedoms, and regulations as before.
>
> It's not saying much to be able to fly over empty farmland.

Well, in case you never checked, 95% of America is empty. That's what
makes it so wonderful.

And, of course, I can fly to Chicago, St. Louis, Minneapolis,
Milwaukee, or Kansas City -- for lunch -- and be home by supper.
(Although I *do* have to have a radio in my plane to do that, dang
it...)

> > In short, MX's contention is completely, utterly, and thankfully wrong.
>
> Famous last words. Unfortunately this perception is all too
> widespread.

The truth often is.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> That's pretty funny. Iowa (and the rest of the country) pretty much
> did a clean-sweep of the Republicans in the last election.

Not in the last Presidential election.

> It won't change anything. In fact, it will make things worse --
> probably much worse.

In an affluent democracy, things always tend to get worse.

> ??? Been reading too many mystery novels, Anthony? No one "comes
> for others" here.

There's always a first time.

> Well, in case you never checked, 95% of America is empty. That's what
> makes it so wonderful.

A lot of the population lives in non-empty parts of the country, and
that's what they like.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Thomas Borchert writes:

> You're trying really hard to join MX in the club of village idiots,
> arent't you? What's the purpose of turning to insults once someone
> points out you're wrong?

What's the purpose of your two insults above?

> But you knew all that. You're just trying to insult people. Like MX.
> Sad.

Sad? I had to smile when I read your post.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

mike regish writes:

> It's getting very real again.

Not in the least. In general, you can take just about anything the
media say and flush it down the toilet, as it's worthless.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> What's the purpose of your two insults above?

OOPS! I forgot that I am refractory to personal insults.

[Mxsmanic]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

"Mxsmanic" writes:

> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > What's the purpose of your two insults above?
>
> OOPS! I forgot that I am refractory to personal insults.

Try forging this.

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Version: PGP 8.0.2

iQA/AwUBRcNP4xv8knkS0DI6EQI5pwCdGLJMV4/5tC5EUI2JnXOkQzwMnsgAoL4U
HNDWUd0nzaw6u8EIvkVhPXf1
=O5da
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> Try forging this.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP 8.0.2
>
> iQA/AwUBRcNP4xv8knkS0DI6EQI5pwCdGLJMV4/5tC5EUI2JnXOkQzwMnsgAoL4U
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> =O5da
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Here's the translation:

......................./´¯/)
.....................,/¯../
..................../..../
............../´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
.........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
.........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
..........\.................'...../
...........''...\.......... _.·´
.............\..............(
...............\.............\...

[Jay Honeck]

> A lot of the population lives in non-empty parts of the country, and
> that's what they like.

I always figured it was an IQ test...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > not flying within the borders of some insignificantly
> > small European country.
>
> You're trying really hard to join MX in the club of village idiots,
> arent't you? What's the purpose of turning to insults once someone
> points out you're wrong?

Insults? That European countries are small, geographically?

Sorry, unless the truth hurts, that's hardly an insult.

And I'm still waiting to see evidence that I'm wrong about freedom in
America.

> As for the facts: So you cross an international border on the way from
> Berlin to Paris. So you file a flight plan. That's it. Big deal. What's
> that got to do with your assertion of less freedom? Zip! So the US is a
> bigger country than the countries in Europe. What's that got to do
> with your assertion of less freedom? Zip!

You (and MX) have stated that European flying is just as free (if not
more free) than in America. I'm telling you that you are wrong. The
fact that you can't fly a paltry 475 miles without being forced to
file a flight plan pretty much proves my case, thank you.

European "freedom" appears to be very selectively applied...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > That's pretty funny. Iowa (and the rest of the country) pretty much
> > did a clean-sweep of the Republicans in the last election.
>
> Not in the last Presidential election.

It's coming. But it won't matter.

Remember: 13 years ago the Republicans were swept into power in a
popular uprising at the polls that was meant to "Clean out the
deadwood in Washington" and "Clean up the corrupt mess."

Now, 13 years later, we're sending the very same corrupt Democrats
back to power, to "Clean up out the deadwood in Washington", and to
"Clean up the corrupt mess".

Do you *really* think the Democratic Machine has changed in 13 years?
Does ANYONE believe that the Ted Kennedys and Hillary Clintons have
changed one iota since 1994?

No, I'm afraid until we have a legitimate third political party in
America, we're stuck with the same old same old. Nothing is going to
change, and it will probably get worse.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Do you *really* think the Democratic Machine has changed in 13 years?

I can't really see any difference between Republicans and Democrats.

I think people should vote for individuals, not party lines. Partisan
behavior is one of the hallmarks of decline in a democracy.

> No, I'm afraid until we have a legitimate third political party in
> America, we're stuck with the same old same old.

It's practically illegal to have any other political parties in the
U.S.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> You (and MX) have stated that European flying is just as free (if not
> more free) than in America.

I have not said this. I live in Europe, so I know better.

> European "freedom" appears to be very selectively applied...

And Americans seem to be curiously blind to the increasing lack of
freedom in their own country.

--
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[Newps]

Mxsmanic wrote:

>> Also, regarding picnics. For nine years Mary and I have made it a
>> habit to fly into little Iowa airports that do NOT have any
>> attractions nearby, in order to have a picnic on the field. We pack a
>> picnic basket full of goodies, land at a small, out of the way airport
>> (there are hundreds of them, so I don't think we'll ever hit them
>> all), deliver our hotel marketing goodies (brochures, posters, pens,
>> what-nots), and then throw a blanket down out in the grass and start
>> eating.
>>
>> We've met some really nice people that way, and have never been
>> hassled. It's truly a little piece of Americana, and we love doing
>> it.
>
> Well, isn't that special. Unfortunately much of America doesn't work
> that way.


Except for the large airports, where there isn't any grass to do this
anyways, name one airport where you couldn't do this.



>
>> You've simply GOT to stop getting your news from blogs, Anthony. They
>> do not tell the truth about freedom in America.
>
> You've got to get out of Iowa sometime. By the time the loss of
> freedom reaches you, it will be too late.
>

Jay's 100% right.

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> And I'm still waiting to see evidence that I'm wrong about freedom in
> America.

Jay, (and everyone else) something you wrote makes me want to post a little
info, and although it can be classified as Politically Correct BS, I think
that once you think about it, you will agree that it has merit, and you
might want to at least try to change.

I've been fairly active with the foreign exchange program here, and have had
one South American student stay with me, and have know some of the other
South American exchange students.

They have pointed out that we citizens of the U.S. call ourselves Americans,
as if we are the only ones who should be using that expression, and we use
it as an expression of our nationality.

They are also Americans, whether they are from Canada, Mexico, Argentina,
Brazil, or wherever.

So, be accurate and use from "The United States" instead of "Americans."
--
Jim in NC

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>> I don't know what part of the country you lived in, but we still do
>> all of that today, right here in the USA.
>
> I lived in the Great American Southwest, right near a Class B.

I live in the Great American Southwest, *IN* a Class B.

>> Any time we'd like!
>
> You're lucky.

Damn right I am. The Aviation authority is even generous enough
to pipe ATC through terrestial FM radio; even at the 2 underlying Class
D airports at that.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[mike regish]

With Iran promising to build 3000 centrifuges and North Korea already having
at least 1 partially successful test, I'd say it's getting a lot more real
than it should be.

But, oh yeah, Eat-my-dick-ajad and that freak haired shrimp over in North
Korea are rational and reasonable people. You're right. What was I
thinking.


"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

> mike regish writes:
>
>> "Nuclear" (rather "newcular") is also in the news every friggin' day,
>> just
>> like when I was a kid my kids age.
>
> Except that, when you were a kid, the threat was real.
>
> --

[mike regish]

I volunteered for a few months on the restoration of their B-29. I used to
watch for an hour or so coming and going. There would always be a half dozen
cars. I haven't been since 9/11, but I've been told you can't park there
anymore.

Don't know if I know the area you're talking about.

mike

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
>
> From: "mike regish" >
>
>>I dunno. I used to park right off the end of the runway at BDL. Planes
>>would
>>be maybe 200' over me on final. Can't do that anymore.
>>
>>mike
>
> I think the parking area off Rt 20 is still open to the public. That's
> about as
> close as you'd want to be to a landing 747.
> Of course at BAF, the National Guard would rather just shoot you
> instead of chasing you off.

[Tony]

I wondered about the "We are Americans" issue and learned Canadians
call themselves
"North Americans"or Canadians and Mexicans call themselves "Mexicans'.
I would say "Americans" is an ok contraction of "United States of
Americans". I haven't heard anyone from Canada or Mexico object,
although I can appreciate that you may have.

If challanged, offer the contraction mentioned above.

On Feb 2, 6:10 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>
> > And I'm still waiting to see evidence that I'm wrong about freedom in
> > America.
>
> Jay, (and everyone else) something you wrote makes me want to post a little
> info, and although it can be classified as Politically Correct BS, I think
> that once you think about it, you will agree that it has merit, and you
> might want to at least try to change.
>
> I've been fairly active with the foreign exchange program here, and have had
> one South American student stay with me, and have know some of the other
> South American exchange students.
>
> They have pointed out that we citizens of the U.S. call ourselves Americans,
> as if we are the only ones who should be using that expression, and we use
> it as an expression of our nationality.
>
> They are also Americans, whether they are from Canada, Mexico, Argentina,
> Brazil, or wherever.
>
> So, be accurate and use from "The United States" instead of "Americans."
> --
> Jim in NC

[Matt Barrow]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>>
>>> You've simply GOT to stop getting your news from blogs, Anthony. They
>>> do not tell the truth about freedom in America.
>>
>> You've got to get out of Iowa sometime. By the time the loss of
>> freedom reaches you, it will be too late.
>>
>
> Jay's 100% right.

And Jay, as a REAL pilot, has been all over the country in his REAL
airplane.

Newps, screwing with Anthony's head is like hunting pasture cows with a
high-powered, scoped rifle

[Jay Beckman]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>>
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> You've simply GOT to stop getting your news from blogs, Anthony. They
>>>> do not tell the truth about freedom in America.
>>>
>>> You've got to get out of Iowa sometime. By the time the loss of
>>> freedom reaches you, it will be too late.
>>>
>>
>> Jay's 100% right.
>
> And Jay, as a REAL pilot, has been all over the country in his REAL
> airplane.
>
> Newps, screwing with Anthony's head is like hunting pasture cows with a
> high-powered, scoped rifle

Troll Tipping!

Jay B

[Jay Honeck]

> Troll Tipping!

Ha!

Dang it, I almost spilled my beer when you did that, Jay! That's
just a perfect mental image of MX.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> And Americans seem to be curiously blind to the increasing lack of
> freedom in their own country.

We can't protest against what doesn't exist. Freedom reigns here, as
it always has -- and always will.

The only gripe I have with my government is our absurdly unfair
taxation system, and our social and corporate welfare system that
allows slackers, bums and scheisters to live a life of comfort.

However, these are small prices to pay, in exchange for the incredible
personal freedom we have here in the US of A.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

mike regish writes:

> With Iran promising to build 3000 centrifuges and North Korea already having
> at least 1 partially successful test, I'd say it's getting a lot more real
> than it should be.

That is completely insignificant in comparison to the arsenal
possessed by the former Soviet Union.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> However, these are small prices to pay, in exchange for the incredible
> personal freedom we have here in the US of A.

What other countries have you been to?

Various countries have various degrees of freedom, but Americans are
the only people who constantly crow about all the freedom they believe
they have. The rest of the world is not a dictatorship, and the
United States is hardly a completely free country.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[[email protected]]

I recommend this short movie which mocks Kim Jong Il and his special
agents for buying Hennessy XO abroad :=)

The full 30-minute movie can be watched and downloaded (in WMV or
Flash format) at:

http://nk007movie.googlepages.com/

[Jay Honeck]

> Various countries have various degrees of freedom, but Americans are
> the only people who constantly crow about all the freedom they believe
> they have.

You're the one who challenged the facts. No one was "crowing" about
freedom until you denied its existence in the United States.

In my relatively brief lifetime, I've started three businesses, moved
my family across state lines, flown airplanes, driven cars, and ridden
motorcycles across this continent from coast to coast -- all without
permission from any governmental body.

No permission was ever granted, because none was required. In a free
country we are free to do these things, by law, unquestioned.

Right now my plane is sitting in its hangar, ten minutes from here,
fully fueled and ready to go. If I wished, I could go fly it to
California right now -- a distance of 1350 nautical miles -- without
saying a word to anyone, or asking permission of *any* governmental
body.

I am free to bitch, moan and complain about every idiot in my
government -- and do so loudly and frequently, in very public forums.
I do all of these things, every day, without fear of reprisal or
consequences.

I challenge you to name another country where I could do all of these
things with the same degree of freedom and odds of success.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> You're the one who challenged the facts.

There are no "facts" at issue here.

> No one was "crowing" about freedom until you denied its existence
> in the United States.

Americans constantly brag about "freedom." Freedom this, Freedom
that; they love to use the word. Indeed, they talk about it a lot
more than they practice it. They seem to think they invented freedom,
and they also seem to think they have a monopoly on it.

> In my relatively brief lifetime, I've started three businesses, moved
> my family across state lines, flown airplanes, driven cars, and ridden
> motorcycles across this continent from coast to coast -- all without
> permission from any governmental body.

That's possible in a great many countries.

> No permission was ever granted, because none was required. In a free
> country we are free to do these things, by law, unquestioned.

How many TFRs have you flown into? Have you ever had all your
property seized because someone hinted that you might be doing
something illegal (even if you weren't)? Has the Secret Service ever
thrown you out of your house or office for Presidential events?

There are a lot of bad things that can happen, and a lot of freedoms
that no longer exist. Just because you haven't experienced these bad
things and haven't missed the freedoms that you've lost doesn't make
it okay.

> Right now my plane is sitting in its hangar, ten minutes from here,
> fully fueled and ready to go. If I wished, I could go fly it to
> California right now -- a distance of 1350 nautical miles -- without
> saying a word to anyone, or asking permission of *any* governmental
> body.

Unless you find a TFR surrounding your airport, in which case you
can't go anywhere.

> I am free to bitch, moan and complain about every idiot in my
> government -- and do so loudly and frequently, in very public forums.
> I do all of these things, every day, without fear of reprisal or
> consequences.

Unless you say something that sounds threatening, in which case you
can end up in a Federal prison. And if some of these officials don't
like you, they can have you thrown in jail for no particular reason at
all.

Read the U.S. Code sometime; it can be enlightening.

> I challenge you to name another country where I could do all of these
> things with the same degree of freedom and odds of success.

Most developed countries allow these things.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:46:00 -0500, mike regish wrote:

>But, oh yeah, Eat-my-dick-ajad and that freak haired shrimp over in North
>Korea are rational and reasonable people.

They sure think the same way.

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

[BDS]

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote
> The planes come in low over Rt 20 for landing on rnwy 6.
> The parking area is right next to the fence. A little left of
> the rnwy centerline.

MKE has (had?) a north/south runway that has road running east/west down in
a valley just off of the approach end of the runway. To the south of that
road is another hill that tops out at the same height as the runway.

I remember one crisp, blue, fall day many years ago when my wife and I
stopped there during a motorcycle ride. The north runway was in use, and we
climbed up that hill and lay there on our backs as the jets would scream
over us coming in to land. They looked like they couldn't have been more
than 100-200 feet over us since the approach end of the runway was only 1/4
mile or so from where we were lying. It was a windy day and after they
passed overhead you could see how much of a crab angle they had relative to
the runway.

That was a neat day.

BDS

[Jay Honeck]

> Most developed countries allow these things.

To lesser degrees, yes -- they all offer aspects of the freedoms we in
America (sorry Jim!) take for granted.

But not to the degree the US allows them.

And *that* is the point.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I remember one crisp, blue, fall day many years ago when my wife and I
> stopped there during a motorcycle ride. The north runway was in use, and we
> climbed up that hill and lay there on our backs as the jets would scream
> over us coming in to land. They looked like they couldn't have been more
> than 100-200 feet over us since the approach end of the runway was only 1/4
> mile or so from where we were lying. It was a windy day and after they
> passed overhead you could see how much of a crab angle they had relative to
> the runway.
>
> That was a neat day.

Mary and I have been on that very road, in that very spot. It's an
awesome place to watch planes land -- and it was the first place I
ever *heard* vortices generated by the wingtips of airliners. It's
an eerie sound that continues for quite a while after the plane has
landed...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim M]

On Feb 1, 11:26 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> These are the flight conditions you guys who choose to live in and
> around the Washington, DC area must contend with, and there's nothing
> you can do about it, short of voting the *******s out of office (for
> all the good *that* will do).

Oh, so it's our fault for living here, huh? Some pilots are stationed
here, sent here by their companies, live here to be close to ill
family members, work here to develop their professional career, or any
number of other reasons which you wish would go away so we'd stop
complaining. How inconvenient for you.

> After 5+ years, it's time to either
> adapt -- or move. (I know several folks who have.)

If you really know people who moved because of the ADIZ, you're
refuting your argument that it's a "small price to pay". News flash:
people don't rearrange their lives over minor inconveniences. It's
been exactly 4 years this month that the ADIZ was established -- not
since 9-11. A temporary measure. A "small price to pay".

> snip <
> And I contend that -- other than you poor guys that are stuck in or
> near that stupid ADIZ -- *nothing* has changed for the rest of us.
>
> That would be the 99.9% of the country I was referring to.
>
> And I'll stand by that assertion. I fly as often today -- actually
> more -- than I did pre-9/11, and (so long as I avoid your area), I fly
> with exactly the same rules, freedoms, and regulations as before. In
> short, MX's contention is completely, utterly, and thankfully wrong.
> --

The ADIZ alone affects 10,000 pilots. You don't represent 99.9% of
the rest of the country. You live and fly in the middle of nowhere.
Good for you, but most people don't. Most pilots in this country live
near cities, and that means NFL TFRs, MLB TFRs, NASCAR TFRs, NCAA
TFRs, and nuclear plant TFRs. That's what everybody else deals with.
Not to mention popup 30 nm TFRs for the President, and the moving TFRs
during the campaign. Sure doesn't sound free to me.

And the worst thing is that since 9-11, the ideas of due process and
presumed innocence are gone, as are any consideration of
circumstances. Accused drug dealers get more breaks than pilots in
these airspace violation hearings. These are people whose only crime,
if they committed one at all, was to get momentarily lost. Ever been
proned out on national TV for getting lost, Jay?

That's just the tip of the iceberg, and that's just aviation. I could
fill pages on what's happened in other areas, all of which you seem
blissfully unaware. No, we're far less free than on 9-10-2001. Your
ignorance of reality doesn't change it.

[Tony]

You have thoughtful and valid observations. Yet, I suspect, you'd
agree in spite of these issues and other problems we still live in a
great country. Some of us could live nearly anywhere we'd like, but
there just hasn't been much migration from the United States.

I do know a fair number of well educated foreign nationals living and
working here (legally), but very few of my friends have gone abroad
for a serious length of time to advance their careers. It may be my
sampling is biased, I've been privileged to live near well known
universities most of my adult life.




On Feb 3, 10:04 am, "Jim M" > wrote:
> On Feb 1, 11:26 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > These are the flight conditions you guys who choose to live in and
> > around the Washington, DC area must contend with, and there's nothing
> > you can do about it, short of voting the *******s out of office (for
> > all the good *that* will do).
>
> Oh, so it's our fault for living here, huh? Some pilots are stationed
> here, sent here by their companies, live here to be close to ill
> family members, work here to develop their professional career, or any
> number of other reasons which you wish would go away so we'd stop
> complaining. How inconvenient for you.
>
> > After 5+ years, it's time to either
> > adapt -- or move. (I know several folks who have.)
>
> If you really know people who moved because of the ADIZ, you're
> refuting your argument that it's a "small price to pay". News flash:
> people don't rearrange their lives over minor inconveniences. It's
> been exactly 4 years this month that the ADIZ was established -- not
> since 9-11. A temporary measure. A "small price to pay".
>
> > snip <
> > And I contend that -- other than you poor guys that are stuck in or
> > near that stupid ADIZ -- *nothing* has changed for the rest of us.
>
> > That would be the 99.9% of the country I was referring to.
>
> > And I'll stand by that assertion. I fly as often today -- actually
> > more -- than I did pre-9/11, and (so long as I avoid your area), I fly
> > with exactly the same rules, freedoms, and regulations as before. In
> > short, MX's contention is completely, utterly, and thankfully wrong.
> > --
>
> The ADIZ alone affects 10,000 pilots. You don't represent 99.9% of
> the rest of the country. You live and fly in the middle of nowhere.
> Good for you, but most people don't. Most pilots in this country live
> near cities, and that means NFL TFRs, MLB TFRs, NASCAR TFRs, NCAA
> TFRs, and nuclear plant TFRs. That's what everybody else deals with.
> Not to mention popup 30 nm TFRs for the President, and the moving TFRs
> during the campaign. Sure doesn't sound free to me.
>
> And the worst thing is that since 9-11, the ideas of due process and
> presumed innocence are gone, as are any consideration of
> circumstances. Accused drug dealers get more breaks than pilots in
> these airspace violation hearings. These are people whose only crime,
> if they committed one at all, was to get momentarily lost. Ever been
> proned out on national TV for getting lost, Jay?
>
> That's just the tip of the iceberg, and that's just aviation. I could
> fill pages on what's happened in other areas, all of which you seem
> blissfully unaware. No, we're far less free than on 9-10-2001. Your
> ignorance of reality doesn't change it.

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> You have thoughtful and valid observations. Yet, I suspect, you'd
> agree in spite of these issues and other problems we still live in a
> great country.

It used to be better. After a while, the "great country" rhetoric
starts to ring a bit hollow. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed
man is king, but that doesn't mean that having one eye is great
vision.

> Some of us could live nearly anywhere we'd like, but
> there just hasn't been much migration from the United States.

It's very difficult to emigrate, actually. And one must be strongly
motivated, which most people aren't. Many people are like the
proverbial frog in a pot of water that is slowly brought to a boil.

> I do know a fair number of well educated foreign nationals living and
> working here (legally), but very few of my friends have gone abroad
> for a serious length of time to advance their careers.

Most people who have gone abroad are ... abroad, so you aren't likely
to meet them.

--
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[Montblack]

("mike regish" wrote)
> It's getting very real again.


What has been done by 'armies on the march' (over, and over, and over, and
over...) the past 3,000 years, is a lesson in human horror.

If people, today, can't hear the drumbeat ...for 'action'... all around the
world, they're deaf to history.


Montblack-days-ahead
Although, the bio stuff scares me more than the nukes.

In a trench, artillery shell or mustard gas?
Hmm? Both have their up-sides.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> To lesser degrees, yes ...

No, to the _same_ degrees.

Soldiers who risk their lives in Iraq do not have the freedom to drink
alcohol when they return home. But they do have that freedom in other
countries.

> -- they all offer aspects of the freedoms we in
> America (sorry Jim!) take for granted.
>
> But not to the degree the US allows them.
>
> And *that* is the point.

Except that what you say is not true.

--
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[Jim M]

On Feb 3, 10:45 am, "Tony" > wrote:
> You have thoughtful and valid observations. Yet, I suspect, you'd
> agree in spite of these issues and other problems we still live in a
> great country. Some of us could live nearly anywhere we'd like, but
> there just hasn't been much migration from the United States.
>
> I do know a fair number of well educated foreign nationals living and
> working here (legally), but very few of my friends have gone abroad
> for a serious length of time to advance their careers. It may be my
> sampling is biased, I've been privileged to live near well known
> universities most of my adult life.
>

In the past 20 years, I've been fortunate enough to have traveled
fairly extensively. I believe I live in one of the most beautiful
cities in the greatest country in the world. But the fact that it's
not as bad as other places doesn't mean I'm willing to let it get
worse.

[Newps]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>
>>You're the one who challenged the facts.
>
>
> There are no "facts" at issue here.

Nice back pedal when called out.



>
>
>>No one was "crowing" about freedom until you denied its existence
>>in the United States.
>
>
> Americans constantly brag about "freedom."


Maybe, but they weren't here when you brought it up. You just spouted
off as usual trying to bait someone into an answer. As usual you were
wrong.


Freedom this, Freedom
> that; they love to use the word. Indeed, they talk about it a lot
> more than they practice it.

We all practice it everyday by going about our business.



>
>
> How many TFRs have you flown into?

None.



Have you ever had all your
> property seized because someone hinted that you might be doing
> something illegal (even if you weren't)?


No.





Has the Secret Service ever
> thrown you out of your house or office for Presidential events?


No. And he's been here four times since I've lived here.



>
> There are a lot of bad things that can happen,



So now you state the obvious. That's called life.




and a lot of freedoms
> that no longer exist.


Wrong again.



Just because you haven't experienced these bad
> things and haven't missed the freedoms that you've lost doesn't make
> it okay.

Haven't missed any because I haven't lost any.


>
>
>>Right now my plane is sitting in its hangar, ten minutes from here,
>>fully fueled and ready to go. If I wished, I could go fly it to
>>California right now -- a distance of 1350 nautical miles -- without
>>saying a word to anyone, or asking permission of *any* governmental
>>body.
>
>
> Unless you find a TFR surrounding your airport, in which case you
> can't go anywhere.

We've always had TFR's. And, like before, if the President shows up to
create an airspace shutdown it is posted in advance. ATC will allow
aircraft to come and go.



>
> Unless you say something that sounds threatening, in which case you
> can end up in a Federal prison.


Nonsense.


And if some of these officials don't
> like you, they can have you thrown in jail for no particular reason at
> all.


Real nonsense.

[Newps]

Jim M wrote:


>
>
> The ADIZ alone affects 10,000 pilots. You don't represent 99.9% of
> the rest of the country.


Alright, according to Wikipedia there are 609,000 active pilots. You do
the math.



You live and fly in the middle of nowhere.
> Good for you, but most people don't. Most pilots in this country live
> near cities, and that means NFL TFRs, MLB TFRs, NASCAR TFRs, NCAA
> TFRs,


3 mile radius for a few hours at a time. Big deal. I live in fire
country. We have more TFR's for that than all the rest of the TFR's put
together and the sizes and the shapes vary.





>
> And the worst thing is that since 9-11, the ideas of due process and
> presumed innocence are gone, as are any consideration of
> circumstances. Accused drug dealers get more breaks than pilots in
> these airspace violation hearings.


Those are criminal proceedings, pilot errors are administrative. Always
have been. Nothing changed there.

[Jim M]

On Feb 3, 12:21 pm, Newps > wrote:
>Alright, according to Wikipedia there are 609,000 active pilots. You do
>the math.

I did. 99.9% of all pilots don't live in Iowa City.

> 3 mile radius for a few hours at a time. Big deal. I live in fire
> country. We have more TFR's for that than all the rest of the TFR's put
> together and the sizes and the shapes vary.

Firefighting TFR vs. national security TFR. No comparison. Fire TFRs
are hardly *ever* in the midst of complicated airspace, are so low
you'd have to crash into one to find it, and are trivial to navigate
around. All the ones I named are in and around B & C airspace, and
the consequences of violating them are egregious. There are no more
or less fire TFRs after 9-11. There are one hell of a lot more
"national security" TFRs after.

>
> Those are criminal proceedings, pilot errors are administrative. Always
> have been.

The distinction is hardly important when you're being led away from
the airport in handcuffs. How many times did you see that before
9-11? How many times were you randomly searched at an airport before
9-11? How many pilots were suspended in 2000? How 'bout 2005?
Compare the average suspension times before and after 9-11. AOPA did,
and it's drastically different. In 2000, NORAD scrambled fighters for
intercepts within U.S. borders a grand total of 0 times. In the 4
years following 9-11, they scrambled 1,600 times to intercept flights
within U.S. borders. Not one of the intercepted aircraft was a
terrorist, BTW.

> Nothing changed there.

Oh good grief. Wake the hell up. Do you really believe that, or are
you just making sport of disagreeing with that mx guy?

[Newps]

Jim M wrote:
> On Feb 3, 12:21 pm, Newps > wrote:
>
>>Alright, according to Wikipedia there are 609,000 active pilots. You do
>>the math.
>
>
> I did. 99.9% of all pilots don't live in Iowa City.

The point is hardly are affected by the TFR.




>
>
> Firefighting TFR vs. national security TFR. No comparison. Fire TFRs
> are hardly *ever* in the midst of complicated airspace,


Huh? Any idea where Denver, Salt Lake and Boise are?




are so low
> you'd have to crash into one to find it,


They go into the tens of thousands of feet.



and are trivial to navigate
> around.




Most are 5 mile radius because the fire is small. Many get to hundreds
of square miles.

[Jim M]

On Feb 3, 4:59 pm, Newps > wrote:


> The point is hardly are affected by the TFR.

There isn't "the" TFR. There are hundreds of new ones, and thousands
of pilots have been affected by them.

> Huh? Any idea where Denver, Salt Lake and Boise are?

I'll repeat it for you: Fire TFRs are hardly *ever* in the midst of
complicated airspace, Exceptions don't prove the rule.

> They go into the tens of thousands of feet.
> Most are 5 mile radius because the fire is small. Many get to hundreds
> of square miles.

Again, these are exceptions, and are no different now than they were
pre 9-11. What's your point? That there are lots of fire TFRs?
There are lots of clouds, too. What has either to do with the
thousands of security TFR violations that have happened since 9-11?

Again, are you seriously positing that we have as much freedom today
as we had on 9-10-01? I guess all those people at the AOPA annual
meetings are all worked up for nothing?

[Jay Honeck]

> Again, are you seriously positing that we have as much freedom today
> as we had on 9-10-01? I guess all those people at the AOPA annual
> meetings are all worked up for nothing?

All those people are worked up because Frederick, MD -- AOPA's home
base -- is right outside the ADIZ.

If AOPA was based in, say, Sacramento, or Des Moines, the Washington
ADIZ would not be nearly as big a deal for them.

Not that I'm saying it shouldn't be a concern for them, BTW.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> All those people are worked up because Frederick, MD -- AOPA's home
> base -- is right outside the ADIZ.
>
> If AOPA was based in, say, Sacramento, or Des Moines, the Washington
> ADIZ would not be nearly as big a deal for them.

I don't think that would make any difference at all. A lot of
influential pilots live in or near the nation's capital, after all.

--
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[Jay Honeck]

> I don't think that would make any difference at all. A lot of
> influential pilots live in or near the nation's capital, after all.

Apparently not enough of them to make any difference.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Apparently not enough of them to make any difference.

The main person responsible for it all is among them, and he's in the
White House.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jim M]

On Feb 3, 10:49 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Again, are you seriously positing that we have as much freedom today
> > as we had on 9-10-01? I guess all those people at the AOPA annual
> > meetings are all worked up for nothing?
>
> All those people are worked up because Frederick, MD -- AOPA's home
> base -- is right outside the ADIZ.
>
> If AOPA was based in, say, Sacramento, or Des Moines, the Washington
> ADIZ would not be nearly as big a deal for them.
>
> Not that I'm saying it shouldn't be a concern for them, BTW.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Well, I'm talking about AOPA members who attend the annual meetings
that take place in places like San Diego and, most recently, Palm
Springs. They, for the most part, aren't from Frederick, and they're
concerned not just about the DC ADIZ, but all the popup TFRs, the
draconian enforcement mechanisms, and the nonsense of it all. And
they're correctly worried that the next ADIZ may indeed be put in
place in Sacramento or Des Moines. Do you recall watching Admiral
Stone's Q&A session in San Diego a few years ago? I'm sure AOPA
probably still has the video on their site somewhere. There were a
lot of ****ed off people, and they weren't from the DC area.

Are you saying that AOPA would not be concerned if there were an ADIZ
in every city with a population of, say, 100,000?

[[email protected]]

>
> Try flying VFR from Paris to Berlin -- without talking to *anyone*,
> either on the phone or in the air -- and see how far you get. You
> will quickly find out that America really is still the "Land of the
> Free" when compared to your European Union, or anywhere else in the
> world, for that matter.

The European Union are still seperate countries with their own rules.
I doubt it that you can fly to Canada, Mexico, The Bahamas or Cuba
without 'talking to anyone'.

And you are right that we have a smaller playground, that means we do
not have to fly for ages just to end up in places like
Dribbleville(IL) or Urinal(TX) but real places like Cannes, Barcelona,
Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam. :-)

Does it really matter.
No, we all can afford to fly and are still healty enough to do so.
Enjoy it, I do.

-Kees

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> And Americans seem to be curiously blind to the increasing lack of
>> freedom in their own country.
>
> We can't protest against what doesn't exist. Freedom reigns here, as
> it always has -- and always will.
>
> The only gripe I have with my government is our absurdly unfair
> taxation system, and our social and corporate welfare system that
> allows slackers, bums and scheisters to live a life of comfort.

Jay,

What is the proper function of government and why is ?

> However, these are small prices to pay, in exchange for the incredible
> personal freedom we have here in the US of A.

As long as your ox isn't being gored.

[Matt Barrow]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>

>>
>>>No one was "crowing" about freedom until you denied its existence
>>>in the United States.
>>
>>
>> Americans constantly brag about "freedom."
>
This from a mental midget who ducked to France where "liberty" means living
out of someone else's pocket, as a vassal of the state.

Hey, (appropriately named) Maniac,

Read up on one of your countrymen, Frederic Bastiat.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Again, are you seriously positing that we have as much freedom today
>> as we had on 9-10-01? I guess all those people at the AOPA annual
>> meetings are all worked up for nothing?
>
> All those people are worked up because Frederick, MD -- AOPA's home
> base -- is right outside the ADIZ.
>
Seems both of you confuse "freedom" with "convenience".

[Newps]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>
>>>>No one was "crowing" about freedom until you denied its existence
>>>>in the United States.
>>>
>>>
>>>Americans constantly brag about "freedom."
>>
> This from a mental midget who ducked to France where "liberty" means living
> out of someone else's pocket, as a vassal of the state.
>
> Hey, (appropriately named) Maniac,
>
> Read up on one of your countrymen, Frederic Bastiat.






Did you just call me a midget?

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >
>> Try flying VFR from Paris to Berlin -- without talking to *anyone*,
>> either on the phone or in the air -- and see how far you get. You
>> will quickly find out that America really is still the "Land of the
>> Free" when compared to your European Union, or anywhere else in the
>> world, for that matter.
>
> The European Union are still seperate countries with their own rules.
> I doubt it that you can fly to Canada, Mexico, The Bahamas or Cuba
> without 'talking to anyone'.

I believe that with a flight plan, you can fly VFR to Canada without talking
to anyone until you get to a towered Customs airport.

[Newps]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>>Try flying VFR from Paris to Berlin -- without talking to *anyone*,
>>>either on the phone or in the air -- and see how far you get. You
>>>will quickly find out that America really is still the "Land of the
>>>Free" when compared to your European Union, or anywhere else in the
>>>world, for that matter.
>>
>>The European Union are still seperate countries with their own rules.
>>I doubt it that you can fly to Canada, Mexico, The Bahamas or Cuba
>>without 'talking to anyone'.
>
>
> I believe that with a flight plan, you can fly VFR to Canada without talking
> to anyone until you get to a towered Customs airport.




And it's not necessary to go to a towered airport. Just call customs
when you land. Most times they won't even come out.

[Jim M]

On Feb 5, 10:20 am, "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...>> Again, are you seriously positing that we have as much freedom today
> >> as we had on 9-10-01? I guess all those people at the AOPA annual
> >> meetings are all worked up for nothing?
>
> > All those people are worked up because Frederick, MD -- AOPA's home
> > base -- is right outside the ADIZ.
>
> Seems both of you confuse "freedom" with "convenience".

No. Two tenets of the American justice system that have been trashed
for pilots since 9-11: 1) innocent until proven guilty and 2) the
right to examine evidence against you. These are hardly matters of
"convenience."

[Morgans]

"Newps" > wrote

> Did you just call me a midget?

I'm pretty sure that was not aimed at you, but the MX.
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

On Feb 1, 8:32 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Unless you want to set up a picnic area, apparently.
>
> No, that's not right, either. The reasons for the hassles setting up
> a picnic area (at our airport, anyway) is that the FAA is VERY
> paranoid about cities pulling a "Mayor Daley" on them, and claiming
> that the airport is a "park".

Of course the historical FACT is that Northerly Island was built and
PAID FOR by the Park Board, i.e. all CHICAGO
TAXPAYERS.

Jeez, you guys can't quit your moaning and disinformation....JG ga'
day sir

Try a concert stage instead

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article m>,
went to a rock concert, smoked some dope, wet the
bed and pecked out :

> On Feb 1, 8:32 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > > Unless you want to set up a picnic area, apparently.
> >
> > No, that's not right, either. The reasons for the hassles setting up
> > a picnic area (at our airport, anyway) is that the FAA is VERY
> > paranoid about cities pulling a "Mayor Daley" on them, and claiming
> > that the airport is a "park".
>
> Of course the historical FACT is that Northerly Island was built and
> PAID FOR by the Park Board, i.e. all CHICAGO
> TAXPAYERS.
>
> Jeez, you guys can't quit your moaning and disinformation....JG ga'
> day sir
>
> Try a concert stage instead

I suppose that the Park Board built the runways, too? IIRC, it was FAA
money that paid for it -- the island was built from dredgings for Navy
Pier. It was sleight of hand that let the Parks Dept. gain title to it.

Go have your damn rock concerts and dope fests somewhere else!

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim M" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Feb 5, 10:20 am, "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>
>> oups.com...>> Again,
>> are you seriously positing that we have as much freedom today
>> >> as we had on 9-10-01? I guess all those people at the AOPA annual
>> >> meetings are all worked up for nothing?
>>
>> > All those people are worked up because Frederick, MD -- AOPA's home
>> > base -- is right outside the ADIZ.
>>
>> Seems both of you confuse "freedom" with "convenience".
>
> No. Two tenets of the American justice system that have been trashed
> for pilots since 9-11: 1) innocent until proven guilty

Get pulled over by a cop aith an APB on your vehicle and see how THAT goes
down.

> and 2) the
> right to examine evidence against you. These are hardly matters of
> "convenience."

Restricting flight in a given area relates...how?

Hey - this is cool - I finally got all of MX's posts blocked. I must
have been a good boy for the computer gods to finally smile on me.

Kindest regards,

James A. (Jim) Carter



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Morgans ]
> Posted At: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:17 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.piloting
> Conversation: Spooky flights
> Subject: Re: Spooky flights
>
>
> "Newps" > wrote
>
> > Did you just call me a midget?
>
> I'm pretty sure that was not aimed at you, but the MX.
> --
> Jim in NC

[Jim M]

On Feb 6, 9:20 am, "Matt Barrow" > wrote:

>
> Get pulled over by a cop aith an APB on your vehicle and see how THAT goes
> down.

I've been the cop in that encounter, so I'm sure I have a different
perspective. But imagine the cop doesn't want to believe your story,
so you go to the magistrate. And the mag says "well, we have to
punish somebody, so it may as well be you."

> > and 2) the
> > right to examine evidence against you. These are hardly matters of
> > "convenience."
>
> Restricting flight in a given area relates...how?

In the way it's being enforced. I'm not going to draw you a picture
-- go back and read the thread. You want to believe you haven't lost
anything, go right ahead. I'm done trying to teach pigs to sing.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim M" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Feb 6, 9:20 am, "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>
>>
>> Get pulled over by a cop aith an APB on your vehicle and see how THAT
>> goes
>> down.
>
> I've been the cop in that encounter, so I'm sure I have a different
> perspective. But imagine the cop doesn't want to believe your story,
> so you go to the magistrate. And the mag says "well, we have to
> punish somebody, so it may as well be you."

Uh, huh!
>
>> > and 2) the
>> > right to examine evidence against you. These are hardly matters of
>> > "convenience."
>>
>> Restricting flight in a given area relates...how?
>
> In the way it's being enforced. I'm not going to draw you a picture
> -- go back and read the thread. You want to believe you haven't lost
> anything, go right ahead. I'm done trying to teach pigs to sing.

And we're done trying to cure schizophrenia and paranoia.