Battery-Driven Tanis

[Marco Leon]

I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in my Warrior but
no electrical source by which to run it. Past newsgroup and online
knowledge (including an email from Tanis) say that at least a couple
of hours are needed to heat the engine in about 20 deg F temps.

An old post from 1999 suggested that a "deep cycle" battery be used in
conjuction with an inverter to be turned on a couple of hours prior to
flight.

Does anyone currently use this setup? If so, any suggestions on the
myriad of battery types and brands? Golf cart batteries are mentioned
quite a bit but they range in price so much that it demands some
research.

Although I live 3 minutes from my tiedown, sitting in my car two hours
before any winter flight kinda takes the wind out of that benefit.

Marco

[BDS[_2_]]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in my Warrior but
> no electrical source by which to run it. Past newsgroup and online
> knowledge (including an email from Tanis) say that at least a couple
> of hours are needed to heat the engine in about 20 deg F temps.
>
> An old post from 1999 suggested that a "deep cycle" battery be used in
> conjuction with an inverter to be turned on a couple of hours prior to
> flight.

Looks like the smallest Tanis heaters are around 250 watts. Even with a
good inverter you will probably consume around 300 watts, or 25 amps at 12
volts.

Most of the deep cycle batteries are rated based on a 20-hr discharge rate.
That means that a 225 amp-hr battery will only deliver that storage capacity
when it is discharged at the 20-hr rate, or in this case about 12.5 amps -
if you discharge it faster (25 amps) then you will not get rated capacity.
Of course, the battery will not do as well in very cold temperatures either.
In addition and IIRC, deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged to
about 20% of capacity and no more.

Even so, it looks like getting a couple of hours out of a 225 amp-hr battery
shouldn't be a problem. You will just have to haul the thing around and
keep it charged all the time to be able to use it and to keep it healthy. I
wouldn't expect that you'd be able to run more than about 5 or 6 hours
continuous though, and again, that's on a healthy battery.

If your heater has a higher rating than 250 watts, you would have to take
that into account and decrease the numbers above accordingly.

BDS

[Morgans]

"Marco Leon" > wrote

>I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in my Warrior but
> no electrical source by which to run it. Past newsgroup and online
> knowledge (including an email from Tanis) say that at least a couple
> of hours are needed to heat the engine in about 20 deg F temps.
>
> An old post from 1999 suggested that a "deep cycle" battery be used in
> conjuction with an inverter to be turned on a couple of hours prior to
> flight.
>
> Does anyone currently use this setup? If so, any suggestions on the
> myriad of battery types and brands?

More information is needed, as to the current draw of the units when plugged
into a standard outlet. Buy or borrow an AC amp meter, and report back.
Also, do you have the cabin heater, or just the engine heater?

I have used power inverters for quite a few different things. They are good
at some uses, and very poor at others. Part of the design that causes some
problems is the wave form in most consumer inverters. If it is called a
modified sine wave converter, it is basically a square wave, with on and off
pulses, and not much in-between, unlike a sine wave.

They are very poor at running inductive motors, like air conditioners and
refrigerators. Sometimes it is necessary to run something like a light bulb
along with the refrigerator, to trigger the unit into producing the wave
form.

As I recall, most inverters say right on them that they are not to be used
for powering resistance heaters. They will do it, but it will strain the
power switching transistors. That seems to be the weak link. Also,
chargers for power tools and such that are constant current, variable
voltage units should not be used on inverters. I burned out a Dewalt
charger on an inverter, while trying to do what was not recommended.

Inverters usually have a rated wattage, such as 500 watts constant, 1000
watts peak. The peak is a joke. It may do that for a millisecond, but any
more will result in a very low output voltage, and trigger a reset
condition, which usually must be done manually. Not a good thing, if you
are not there.

I would think that if you do go this route, you would be advised to get one
at least twice as big, or more. If you say the heater unit draws 500 watts,
get a minimum of a 1000 watt, but a 1500 watt or 2000 watt would be better.

Post some more specifics, if you will. My feeling is that it will be
doable, but not cheap. Triggering a small electric start generator may be a
better option.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Macklin]

Go to a store and buy a portable gasoline powered generator.
Get insulating blankets for the cowl, otherwise all the heat
will escape.
If you can setup some sort of remote starting for the
generator, you can get started warming it up or just start
the generator and go get a cup of coffee.


You don't want to be hauling hundreds of pounds of acid
filled batteries around.

Or run a powerline, they do that all the time at
construction sites.



"BDS" > wrote in message
et...
|
| "Marco Leon" > wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| > I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in
my Warrior but
| > no electrical source by which to run it. Past newsgroup
and online
| > knowledge (including an email from Tanis) say that at
least a couple
| > of hours are needed to heat the engine in about 20 deg F
temps.
| >
| > An old post from 1999 suggested that a "deep cycle"
battery be used in
| > conjuction with an inverter to be turned on a couple of
hours prior to
| > flight.
|
| Looks like the smallest Tanis heaters are around 250
watts. Even with a
| good inverter you will probably consume around 300 watts,
or 25 amps at 12
| volts.
|
| Most of the deep cycle batteries are rated based on a
20-hr discharge rate.
| That means that a 225 amp-hr battery will only deliver
that storage capacity
| when it is discharged at the 20-hr rate, or in this case
about 12.5 amps -
| if you discharge it faster (25 amps) then you will not get
rated capacity.
| Of course, the battery will not do as well in very cold
temperatures either.
| In addition and IIRC, deep cycle batteries are designed to
be discharged to
| about 20% of capacity and no more.
|
| Even so, it looks like getting a couple of hours out of a
225 amp-hr battery
| shouldn't be a problem. You will just have to haul the
thing around and
| keep it charged all the time to be able to use it and to
keep it healthy. I
| wouldn't expect that you'd be able to run more than about
5 or 6 hours
| continuous though, and again, that's on a healthy battery.
|
| If your heater has a higher rating than 250 watts, you
would have to take
| that into account and decrease the numbers above
accordingly.
|
| BDS
|
|

[Jay Honeck]

> Although I live 3 minutes from my tiedown, sitting in my car two hours
> before any winter flight kinda takes the wind out of that benefit.

Sounds like a perfect application for one of those annoying little
Honda generators that we always seem to get stuck next to when
camping...?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Marco Leon > wrote:
> I have a common problem of possessing a Tanis heater in my Warrior but
> no electrical source by which to run it.

You may have already read this thread, but if not, you might find
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_thread/thread/f6e8d8cc0078d41b
and in particular
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/msg/3946b39f6df7c857
where I went through the math on sizing the battery.

As to what kind of battery: If I wanted to do this and money was no
object, I'd go with a gel-cell/absorbed-glass-mat battery, plus a decent
charger to go with it. The gel-cell battery is more expensive, but has
the redeeming feature that if you tip it over, acid doesn't go everywhere.
A "decent" charger probably means a microprocessor-controlled one with a
setting for gel-cell batteries - they should be charged a little
differently than a flooded battery. If you overcharge a gel-cell with a
cheap charger, you can't (usually) add water to the battery to fix it.

If I wanted to do it on the cheap, I'd probably go to Wal-Mart and buy
their big yellow "deep cycle" flooded lead-acid battery and whatever
cheap 6 or 10 amp charger they sell. You have to be more careful when
handling a flooded battery, and the cheap charger means that you have to
remember to shut off the charger yourself. But, if you do accidentally
overcharge the battery, you can add distilled water to the battery to
make up for what you boiled off.

Whatever you do, DON'T leave out the fuse between the battery and the
inverter. Batteries can deliver a whole lot of energy in a hurry and
that's probably something you don't want happening around your airplane.

Matt Roberds

[Dave[_5_]]

It seems to me that a low-voltage pad heater would fill the bill. The
following link is for a company that makes pad heaters much like the
Tanis, but designed to operate on 12 Volts:

http://www.padheaters.com/sizing.html

A resistance heating element doesn't care if it is run on AC or DC, so
a battery would do the job. You could charge the battery with a solar
panel - and rig up some sort of means of turning the heat on remotely
if you want to get fancy. I have heard of people using modified cell
phones for such things. A pager modified to provide a contact closure
would work as well. You'd need to do some experimentation to work out
pad wattage, battery capacity and solar panel size - but I think it is
a practical solution.

David Johnson

[[email protected]]

Dave > wrote:
> It seems to me that a low-voltage pad heater would fill the bill. The
> following link is for a company that makes pad heaters much like the
> Tanis, but designed to operate on 12 Volts:

Are you suggesting installing the 12 V heater along with the Tanis
heater, or instead of the Tanis heater? If the 12 V heater replaces
the Tanis heater, you then need to carry a 120 V to 12 V transformer
or power supply if you want to preheat your engine at a remote location.
Assuming you have a 250 W heater, browsing Digi-Key says that a 250 W
transformer weighs about 6 lb and costs about US$75, while a 250 W
power supply weighs about 3 lb and costs about US$250.

Matt Roberds

[BDS[_2_]]

"Dave" > wrote

> You could charge the battery with a solar
> panel

That might not work so well in an application like this. If he has the 250
watt heater and runs it for 3 hours then he has removed 750 watt-hours of
energy from the battery (plus change).

A typical solar panel charger is meant for trickle charging and they only
put out something like 10 watts or less, although I've seen some up around
20 watts. That means that it will take 75 hours of charging time at 10
watts to replace that 750 watt-hours, and that's at 100% efficiency which,
as well all know, doesn't exist.

Most of these deep cycle cells are looking for a charge at around 20 amps
for 10 hours or so to bring them up to full charge, and then a float charge
to hold the terminal voltage around 13.8 volts.

Either a generator or a propane-fired pre-heater is the way to go here.

BDS

[Marco Leon]

On Jan 31, 5:43 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
>
> More information is needed, as to the current draw of the units when plugged
> into a standard outlet. Buy or borrow an AC amp meter, and report back.
> Also, do you have the cabin heater, or just the engine heater?

Just the engine heater. The standard Tanis for the 320 engines are 250
watts and drawing about 2-3 amps according to Tanis.


> As I recall, most inverters say right on them that they are not to be used
> for powering resistance heaters. They will do it, but it will strain the
> power switching transistors. That seems to be the weak link. Also,
> chargers for power tools and such that are constant current, variable
> voltage units should not be used on inverters. I burned out a Dewalt
> charger on an inverter, while trying to do what was not recommended.
>
> Inverters usually have a rated wattage, such as 500 watts constant, 1000
> watts peak. The peak is a joke. It may do that for a millisecond, but any
> more will result in a very low output voltage, and trigger a reset
> condition, which usually must be done manually. Not a good thing, if you
> are not there.

The inverter I have can run continuously at 400 Watts with a peak of
800W. I learned my lesson about the "peak" rating when I was a
teenager buying my first boom-box...

> I would think that if you do go this route, you would be advised to get one
> at least twice as big, or more. If you say the heater unit draws 500 watts,
> get a minimum of a 1000 watt, but a 1500 watt or 2000 watt would be better.

That's why I bought the 400W inverter. While not twice the rating,
hopefully it will be enough for a 250W heater.

> Post some more specifics, if you will. My feeling is that it will be
> doable, but not cheap. Triggering a small electric start generator may be a
> better option.

I think the generator would be the ideal situation but I'm trying to
avoid spending ~$500 on a good generator. I did some research on
generators and there are some Chinese non-name brands out there but
the feedback has not been good. Duropower comes to mind but at less
than 1/2 the price of the Honda, I hesitate due to the "you get what
you pay for" rule.

But if there's any good feedback from fellow pilots on the Duropower
generators, I'll go and get one today.

[Marco Leon]

On Jan 31, 6:41 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> Sounds like a perfect application for one of those annoying little
> Honda generators that we always seem to get stuck next to when
> camping...?

Annoying and expensive! The Honda's go for around $600 and the
Coleman's about $450. There's a DuroPower line that runs just north of
$100 but that price makes me take a step back.

Marco

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 1, 8:26 am, "BDS" > wrote:
> That might not work so well in an application like this. If he has the 250
> watt heater and runs it for 3 hours then he has removed 750 watt-hours of
> energy from the battery (plus change).
>
> A typical solar panel charger is meant for trickle charging and they only
> put out something like 10 watts or less, although I've seen some up around
> 20 watts. That means that it will take 75 hours of charging time at 10
> watts to replace that 750 watt-hours, and that's at 100% efficiency which,
> as well all know, doesn't exist.

There's a guy with a solar-power setup on the ramp but I've never been
able to run into him to pick his brain. A friend heard that he has his
thing patented so I might get little info other than a price... I
researched the solar powered thing briefly but stopped after the
numbers on the napkin hit 4-digits to the right of the dollar sign.

>
> Most of these deep cycle cells are looking for a charge at around 20 amps
> for 10 hours or so to bring them up to full charge, and then a float charge
> to hold the terminal voltage around 13.8 volts.
>
> Either a generator or a propane-fired pre-heater is the way to go here.

Yeah, I think a generator is the ideal thing. Plus, I can use it for
many different applications as well.

[Marco Leon]

On Jan 31, 6:01 pm, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:
> Go to a store and buy a portable gasoline powered generator.
> Get insulating blankets for the cowl, otherwise all the heat
> will escape.
> If you can setup some sort of remote starting for the
> generator, you can get started warming it up or just start
> the generator and go get a cup of coffee.
>
> You don't want to be hauling hundreds of pounds of acid
> filled batteries around.

That's a good point about the acid batteries. Charging would be a
constantpain as well.

I think you guys are convincing me to go the generator route...

[[email protected]]

I've been reading this tread with some interest, but I am fortunate in
that I have electricity to my hanger. What I'm curious about is the
cell phone or pager thing to turn on a heater remotely. Has anyone
done that, and how so? One thing that came to mind with pagers is that
alot of times they will beep something like once a minute as a
reminder if you don't push the button when it goes off, does that mean
that any application would be switching on and off likewise if you
used a pager?
-Ryan Wubben
Madison

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 1, 11:54 am, wrote:
> I've been reading this tread with some interest, but I am fortunate in
> that I have electricity to my hanger. What I'm curious about is the
> cell phone or pager thing to turn on a heater remotely. Has anyone
> done that, and how so? One thing that came to mind with pagers is that
> alot of times they will beep something like once a minute as a
> reminder if you don't push the button when it goes off, does that mean
> that any application would be switching on and off likewise if you
> used a pager?
> -Ryan Wubben
> Madison

You can start here: http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Beeper%20Box%20pg%201.htm.
There are others on the market I believe. There's also a $15
ThermoCube that turns on the outlet under a certain temperature.
Sporty's has it.

Marco

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:
> I've been reading this tread with some interest, but I am fortunate in
> that I have electricity to my hanger. What I'm curious about is the
> cell phone or pager thing to turn on a heater remotely. Has anyone
> done that, and how so? One thing that came to mind with pagers is that
> alot of times they will beep something like once a minute as a
> reminder if you don't push the button when it goes off, does that mean
> that any application would be switching on and off likewise if you
> used a pager?
> -Ryan Wubben
> Madison
>
Tanis sells a pager device.


I just have mine on a 7-day timer and a thermostat that kicks it on
FRI/SAT/SUN early in the morning when it is cold.

[Dave[_5_]]

On Feb 1, 8:26 am, "BDS" > wrote:
> "Dave" > wrote
>
> > You could charge the battery with a solar
> > panel
>
> That might not work so well in an application like this. If he has the 250
> watt heater and runs it for 3 hours then he has removed 750 watt-hours of
> energy from the battery (plus change).
>
> A typical solar panel charger is meant for trickle charging and they only
> put out something like 10 watts or less, although I've seen some up around
> 20 watts. That means that it will take 75 hours of charging time at 10
> watts to replace that 750 watt-hours, and that's at 100% efficiency which,
> as well all know, doesn't exist.
>
> Most of these deep cycle cells are looking for a charge at around 20 amps
> for 10 hours or so to bring them up to full charge, and then a float charge
> to hold the terminal voltage around 13.8 volts.
>
> Either a generator or a propane-fired pre-heater is the way to go here.
>
> BDS

I did say that you'd have to do the math to see if it is practical or
not. I think it would work for someone who flies infrequently. Solar
power does have a significant upfront cost - but is essentially free
thereafter.

Personally I have had good luck with a couple of ceramic "cube"
heaters with dryer duct hoses attached to the business end - but have
been fortunate to have had AC available.

David Johnson

[Jay Honeck]

> Annoying and expensive! The Honda's go for around $600 and the
> Coleman's about $450.

True, but you'd have something that would be truly useful in other
applications all year long. (Like a power outage?) Not sure what
else you could do with a solar-powered Tanis heater contraption...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Macklin]

Winter means thick overcast, how well will your solar panels
work in the cold with dark overcast and short days?


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|> Annoying and expensive! The Honda's go for around $600
and the
| > Coleman's about $450.
|
| True, but you'd have something that would be truly useful
in other
| applications all year long. (Like a power outage?) Not
sure what
| else you could do with a solar-powered Tanis heater
contraption...
|
| ;-)
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

[Jay Honeck]

> Winter means thick overcast, how well will your solar panels
> work in the cold with dark overcast and short days?

I don't know. However, winter isn't always a thick overcast,
especially at this time of year.

When it gets really, really cold, we are often under a big bubble of
Canadian high pressure. The sky turns cobalt blue, the winds die
down, and the temperature plummets. Today was an absolutely perfect
day to fly, if you don't mind the cold.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination

[Morgans]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jan 31, 6:41 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>> Sounds like a perfect application for one of those annoying little
>> Honda generators that we always seem to get stuck next to when
>> camping...?
>
> Annoying and expensive! The Honda's go for around $600 and the
> Coleman's about $450. There's a DuroPower line that runs just north of
> $100 but that price makes me take a step back.

Get creative. A weed eater motor driving a car alternator that had one of
it's three diodes go out, and had to replaced comes to mind. Combine that
with an inverter, and you have your needs met, for only junk parts.

That is on my list of "round to-it" projects, for one rainy day. <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Morgans" > wrote

> Get creative. A weed eater motor driving a car alternator that had one of
> it's three diodes go out, and had to replaced comes to mind. Combine that
> with an inverter, and you have your needs met, for only junk parts.

Something else I just remembered. I think instructions are out there to
change the output of an alternator to 120 volts DC. The heater does not
care if it is getting AC or DC. You would not even need an inverter, then.
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

Marco Leon > wrote:
> On Feb 1, 8:26 am, "BDS" > wrote:
>> That might not work so well in an application like this. If he has
>> the 250 watt heater and runs it for 3 hours then he has removed 750
>> watt-hours of energy from the battery (plus change).

A couple of web sites quote a 170 W BP solar panel at around $850. In
full sun this would take about four and a half hours to recharge the
battery. A 115 watt panel would take about six and a half hours and
cost $650. Add another $200 for a charge controller, wiring, etc and
another $100-$200 for the battery.

> There's a guy with a solar-power setup on the ramp but I've never been
> able to run into him to pick his brain. A friend heard that he has his
> thing patented so I might get little info other than a price...

I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice.

The US patent system is totally broken, so it wouldn't surprise me if
such a thing was patented. If it is, get the patent number out of him,
then go look it up at Google or at the Patent and Trademark Office and
you should get a full description. If you like what you see, and the
guy isn't an attorney himself, build one of your own and don't worry
about it. He has to sue you to get anywhere, and it's pretty easy to
show prior art... look at the Bell Labs literature from the 1950s and
I'm sure you can find "hey, you could charge a battery with these
things" in no later than the third article ever written about them.

I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice.

> I researched the solar powered thing briefly but stopped after the
> numbers on the napkin hit 4-digits to the right of the dollar sign.

If you want to have a reasonable chance of being able to pre-heat the
next day, I'd believe it - see above.

Matt Roberds

[Jim Macklin]

True, the Canadian High brings clear sky, but the days are
still short. A low charged lead-acid battery can freeze.

As you said, a generator has uses year round, power after
the T-storm, maybe a portable welder.

It might be wonderful weather on Friday, but if Monday to
Thursday was blizzard, and the solar panel is under a foot
of snow and the sun hasn't shown for a week, will the
battery heat the engine? Then will the solar panels charge
the battery before it freezes and have it ready for the next
flight?


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|> Winter means thick overcast, how well will your solar
panels
| > work in the cold with dark overcast and short days?
|
| I don't know. However, winter isn't always a thick
overcast,
| especially at this time of year.
|
| When it gets really, really cold, we are often under a big
bubble of
| Canadian high pressure. The sky turns cobalt blue, the
winds die
| down, and the temperature plummets. Today was an
absolutely perfect
| day to fly, if you don't mind the cold.
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination
|

[Jim Macklin]

And just another thought, how far away is the power grid?
Running 120 VAC or even 120/240 to a hanger means you can
work year round, have an air compressor, other power tools
and heat and fans.

My choice would be run a powerline, you can do a lot of that
yourself and get the power company to do the final
connection. Check the codes where you are.

Use a portable generator.

Start aircraft and fly to Texas, stay on the Gulf.



"Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message ...
| True, the Canadian High brings clear sky, but the days are
| still short. A low charged lead-acid battery can freeze.
|
| As you said, a generator has uses year round, power after
| the T-storm, maybe a portable welder.
|
| It might be wonderful weather on Friday, but if Monday to
| Thursday was blizzard, and the solar panel is under a foot
| of snow and the sun hasn't shown for a week, will the
| battery heat the engine? Then will the solar panels
charge
| the battery before it freezes and have it ready for the
next
| flight?
|
|
| "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
|
oups.com...
||> Winter means thick overcast, how well will your solar
| panels
|| > work in the cold with dark overcast and short days?
||
|| I don't know. However, winter isn't always a thick
| overcast,
|| especially at this time of year.
||
|| When it gets really, really cold, we are often under a
big
| bubble of
|| Canadian high pressure. The sky turns cobalt blue, the
| winds die
|| down, and the temperature plummets. Today was an
| absolutely perfect
|| day to fly, if you don't mind the cold.
|| --
|| Jay Honeck
|| Iowa City, IA
|| Pathfinder N56993
|| www.AlexisParkInn.com
|| "Your Aviation Destination
||
|
|

[BDS]

> wrote

> A couple of web sites quote a 170 W BP solar panel at around $850. In
> full sun this would take about four and a half hours to recharge the
> battery. A 115 watt panel would take about six and a half hours and
> cost $650. Add another $200 for a charge controller, wiring, etc and
> another $100-$200 for the battery.

Well, it looks like they are out there and available as you've pointed out.
When I looked at websites that offered them as battery chargers I only found
the smaller ones meant to keep an already charged battery at full charge.

Still, this is much more expensive than a small generator would be, and
depends on things like sunny days and being kept clear of ice and snow. The
small generator is the way I'd go if it were me.

> > There's a guy with a solar-power setup on the ramp but I've never been
> > able to run into him to pick his brain. A friend heard that he has his
> > thing patented so I might get little info other than a price...
>
> I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice.

I'm not an attorney either but I don't think you would get into any trouble
building one for yourself for your own use - who is going to hire an
attorney to sue you for $1,000 (the cost of pursuing it would be orders of
magnitude higher than that) and what attorney would be interested in such a
case? If you started manufacturing them and selling them, that would be a
different story.

BDS

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Start aircraft and fly to Texas, stay on the Gulf.

As long as he promises to go back and keep any of those liberal northern
ideas to himself... We don't need anymore Damn Yankees down here...

[Steve Foley]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...

> Get creative. A weed eater motor driving a car alternator that had one of
> it's three diodes go out, and had to replaced comes to mind. Combine that
> with an inverter, and you have your needs met, for only junk parts.

Amazon has a generator for $89. Sounds like what you just descibed. Shipping
is $42, so I passed.

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 2, 6:46 am, Grumman-581 >
wrote:
> Jim Macklin wrote:
> > Start aircraft and fly to Texas, stay on the Gulf.
>
> As long as he promises to go back and keep any of those liberal northern
> ideas to himself... We don't need anymore Damn Yankees down here...

I hope you're not assuming that I'm a lib because I'm from New York. I
didn't think people used that term anymore other than to refer to Ted
Nugent's band.

[Jim Macklin]

I thought it was a musical movie about a baseball team.


Besides, what south Texas needs is more English speakers,
even if they are rude. ;-)



"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| On Feb 2, 6:46 am, Grumman-581
>
| wrote:
| > Jim Macklin wrote:
| > > Start aircraft and fly to Texas, stay on the Gulf.
| >
| > As long as he promises to go back and keep any of those
liberal northern
| > ideas to himself... We don't need anymore Damn Yankees
down here...
|
| I hope you're not assuming that I'm a lib because I'm from
New York. I
| didn't think people used that term anymore other than to
refer to Ted
| Nugent's band.
|

[[email protected]]

BDS > wrote:
> Well, it looks like they are out there and available as you've pointed
> out. When I looked at websites that offered them as battery chargers
> I only found the smaller ones meant to keep an already charged battery
> at full charge.

Those are popular because they're cheap - the solar cell itself is much
cheaper, and the control gear is much simpler - usually just a simple
diode to keep the battery from discharging through the solar cell at
night. Unless you hook one of those 10-20 W cells up to a tiny battery,
it'll never overcharge the battery, even in full sunlight at the equator
on the longest day of the year. They work pretty well for vehicles that
have to be parked in remote areas for long periods of time.

Bigger cells need a charge controller, both to regulate the charging
current to the battery, and to maximize the power output from the solar
cell. A 150 W nominal solar cell might actually give you full output
at 15 V, 10 A. If you draw 11 A you might drag it down to 13 V (143 W
output) and if you draw 9 A it might only go up to 16 V (144 W output).
The charge controller can "learn" the characteristics of the solar cell
and adjust how much power it's trying to draw. They are usually easy
to hook up - they are basically a box of electronics with terminal
strips on it and maybe a dial to adjust the battery charging rate - but
they aren't particularly cheap.

> Still, this is much more expensive than a small generator would be,
> and depends on things like sunny days and being kept clear of ice and
> snow.

True. At the moment, solar seems to be a win if the other options are a
lot more expensive or impractical for some reason - if you have a cell
site on the side of a mountain somewhere, few people want to pay to
string a power line to it, nor do they want to pay somebody to drive a
fuel truck up there every so often. Solar cells are also quiet and have
no moving parts, which can be an advantage in some applications. Their
efficiency seems to be improving similarly to that of internal
combustion engines - probably nobody is going to triple the efficiency
of either device overnight, but with lots of work, it can get a percent
or two better a year, and if you keep at it, it gets more and more
practical.

> I'm not an attorney either but I don't think you would get into any
> trouble building one for yourself for your own use - who is going to
> hire an attorney to sue you for $1,000 (the cost of pursuing it would
> be orders of magnitude higher than that) and what attorney would be
> interested in such a case?

That's why I included the disclaimer "[if] the guy isn't an attorney
himself". If his time is "free" he can sue you for fun.

Matt Roberds