Scary Icing ATC tape

[Jay Honeck]

This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
severe icing conditions.

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-Mayday.mp3

(It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)

This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
really points out how quickly things can go bad.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
> airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
> really points out how quickly things can go bad.

It sounds a lot more like hysteria than terror. This surprises me
coming from a commercial pilot.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
> severe icing conditions.
>
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-
> Mayday.mp3
>
> (It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)
>
> This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
> airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
> really points out how quickly things can go bad.

Speaking pilots on tape. Did any else hear the story on NPR's Morning
Edition this morning about the guy with the autopilot that would release and
he had to land while fighting the AP. The controller talked him through the
GPS approach because he couldn't take hands off the controls to set up the
instruments.

If you didn't it is probably on thier website by now.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>> This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
>> airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
>> really points out how quickly things can go bad.
>
> It sounds a lot more like hysteria than terror. This surprises me
> coming from a commercial pilot.

As someone who is scared to go outside you ought to have a pretty good
handle on both hysteria and terror.

[Steve A]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> It sounds a lot more like hysteria than terror. This surprises me
> coming from a commercial pilot.

Spoken bravely by someone who's "crash" will not cause anything more
than re-starting the simulation. It is a bit different when your butt
is strapped into the airplane, moving through real three dimensional
space, and the airplane is out of control.

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

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Gig 601XL Builder <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> Speaking pilots on tape. Did any else hear the story on NPR's Morning
> Edition this morning about the guy with the autopilot that would release and
> he had to land while fighting the AP. The controller talked him through the
> GPS approach because he couldn't take hands off the controls to set up the
> instruments.
>
> If you didn't it is probably on thier website by now.

Yep. Heard it this morning as well. Found the article and
posted the text of the incident. Should be hitting your NNTP server
shortly.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[Mxsmanic]

Steve A writes:

> Spoken bravely by someone who's "crash" will not cause anything more
> than re-starting the simulation. It is a bit different when your butt
> is strapped into the airplane, moving through real three dimensional
> space, and the airplane is out of control.

Yes, if you get hysterical in a real plane, there's a good chance that
you'll kill yourself.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Tony]

She got control of an airplane that sounded like it was a flying ice
cube in IMC -- I hope I can do as well in similiar circumstances.

I'll delete the bulk of my comment about an irritated hemorhoid being
able to type.

On Feb 2, 4:51 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
> severe icing conditions.
>
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-May...
>
> (It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)
>
> This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
> airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
> really points out how quickly things can go bad.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter R.]

On 2/2/2007 4:51:44 PM, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

> This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
> severe icing conditions.
>
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-Mayday.mp3
>
> (It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)

Hey, that MP3 sounds very familiar... oh, yeah - Another LiveATC.net member
and I were the ones who compiled the clip for LiveATC.net last year.


--
Peter

[GDBholdings]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Steve A writes:
>
>> Spoken bravely by someone who's "crash" will not cause anything more
>> than re-starting the simulation. It is a bit different when your butt
>> is strapped into the airplane, moving through real three dimensional
>> space, and the airplane is out of control.
>
> Yes, if you get hysterical in a real plane, there's a good chance that
> you'll kill yourself.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Msxmanic does have a point in the fact that if you panic and/or get
hysterical during a in-flight emergency there is a good chance that you will
lose total control and crash. However in this case I didn't feel that the
pilot was in panic mode but rather was VERY concerned about the fact that
she couldn't maintain altitude or airspeed and communicated to ATC that she
did indeed have a serious in-flight emergency. I myself think she did a very
good job of keeping control of the aircraft.

>It sounds a lot more like hysteria than terror. This surprises me
coming from a commercial pilot.

Doesn't surprise me at all, just because someone has a commercial license
doesn't mean that they are immune to panic. Training for emergencies is the
best way to survive an in-flight emergency but training is training and I
feel doesn't have the same impact as the real thing.

Having said all that I am happy that she survived the ordeal and hopefully
will come away from this a better more experienced pilot!!

[Aluckyguess]

The controller was so relaxed during the whole thing.
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
> severe icing conditions.
>
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-Mayday.mp3
>
> (It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)
>
> This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
> airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
> really points out how quickly things can go bad.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Dan[_1_]]

I suppose hindsight is 20/20, but her comments of "I just dropped at
2000 feet per minute with uncommnaded rolls.... I have no idea what
happened..... let's continue 2.5 hours to Bangor" don't really seem to
make much sense to me.

If a plane did that and I didn't have any idea why, I'd lean towards
getting it on the ground ASAP.

I suppose at some point, she must have realized that the ice was
coming off...

--Dan


On Feb 2, 2:51 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
> severe icing conditions.
>
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-May...
>
> (It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)
>
> This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
> airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
> really points out how quickly things can go bad.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Hey, that MP3 sounds very familiar... oh, yeah - Another LiveATC.net member
> and I were the ones who compiled the clip for LiveATC.net last year.

It's a small world, in cyberspace.

I often receive "new" videos, submitted for inclusion on our video
webpage, that came straight from my site -- two years ago.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

GDBholdings writes:

> Msxmanic does have a point in the fact that if you panic and/or get
> hysterical during a in-flight emergency there is a good chance that you will
> lose total control and crash. However in this case I didn't feel that the
> pilot was in panic mode but rather was VERY concerned about the fact that
> she couldn't maintain altitude or airspeed and communicated to ATC that she
> did indeed have a serious in-flight emergency. I myself think she did a very
> good job of keeping control of the aircraft.

She repeated herself a lot and kept telling ATC about something that
ATC could not help with. Then she hogged the frequency a bit with
long reports about what she had done, what she was doing, and what she
intended to do, even though none of these were relevant to ATC.

She says "6500 and descending many times," but if she were truly
descending, she wouldn't remain at 6500 for subsequent reports.

The big surprise is that she was a commercial pilot. I'm glad it was
FedEx, which implies that nobody else was at risk.

> Doesn't surprise me at all, just because someone has a commercial license
> doesn't mean that they are immune to panic. Training for emergencies is the
> best way to survive an in-flight emergency but training is training and I
> feel doesn't have the same impact as the real thing.

The most successful pilots and controllers are those who remain
emotionless even in dire situations. If you listen to tapes of many
accident situations, veteran commercial pilots often sound as though
they're having tea rather than trying to overcome an emergency. And
ATC is famous for its constant "Houston center" calm, even in the face
of the worst emergency. People like this are people who survive in
emergencies.

It surprises me that she's a commercial pilot, supposedly with
considerable experience in this aircraft and in flying generally, and
she doesn't seem to understand the risk or reality of icing. ATC has
to suggest it to her, and even then she doesn't seem to get it.

> Having said all that I am happy that she survived the ordeal and hopefully
> will come away from this a better more experienced pilot!!

Maybe. But personalities don't change much, and if she handles one
emergency poorly, she'll probably handle them all poorly.

--
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[Jay Honeck]

> If a plane did that and I didn't have any idea why, I'd lean towards
> getting it on the ground ASAP.
>
> I suppose at some point, she must have realized that the ice was
> coming off...

I agree.

She's a tough cookie -- I'd be landing ASAP, to change my shorts.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Aluckyguess writes:

> The controller was so relaxed during the whole thing.

The controller was behaving like a professional, unlike the pilot.

The only reason she survived is that the ice started to melt--no
thanks to her, since she didn't seem to even be considering ice,
although the controller clearly had some good ideas.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Nathan Young]

On 2 Feb 2007 13:51:44 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
>severe icing conditions.
>
>http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-Mayday.mp3
>
>(It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)
>
>This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
>airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
>really points out how quickly things can go bad.

Was it just me, or was the controller excessively blase about the
Mayday call?

[Mxsmanic]

Dan writes:

> I suppose hindsight is 20/20, but her comments of "I just dropped at
> 2000 feet per minute with uncommnaded rolls.... I have no idea what
> happened..... let's continue 2.5 hours to Bangor" don't really seem to
> make much sense to me.
>
> If a plane did that and I didn't have any idea why, I'd lean towards
> getting it on the ground ASAP.
>
> I suppose at some point, she must have realized that the ice was
> coming off...

It's not clear that she ever even thinks about ice; I don't recall her
ever mentioning it. Only ATC talks about that.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Nathan Young writes:

> Was it just me, or was the controller excessively blase about the
> Mayday call?

Being calm and collected is a lot safer than yelling and screaming.
The controller was doing his job. Additionally, the pilot said very
little that would allow ATC to do anything. ATC cannot prevent the
aircraft from icing up, and cannot control the aircraft remotely. She
called a mayday but there really wasn't anything to request from ATC.
Apparently she just wanted to talk to someone.

What would you have the controller do?

--
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[Mike 'Flyin'8']

>The controller was so relaxed during the whole thing.

He is obviously not the one at 7500 ft with an out of contol aircraft.

Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Aluckyguess]

We are not sure it was ice. Maybe she got into a thunder storm and it
tossed her around. If the temperature she stated was true the ice would not
of melted.
I dont know. We got into some ice the other day. Not a good thing.
She did stay with the plane and never quit flying it.
"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Aluckyguess writes:
>
>> The controller was so relaxed during the whole thing.
>
> The controller was behaving like a professional, unlike the pilot.
>
> The only reason she survived is that the ice started to melt--no
> thanks to her, since she didn't seem to even be considering ice,
> although the controller clearly had some good ideas.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Mike 'Flyin'8' writes:

> He is obviously not the one at 7500 ft with an out of contol aircraft.

I don't think that makes any difference. Some people are calm in
emergencies, others aren't.

--
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[Viperdoc[_4_]]

It's easy to criticize the behavior of another person, especially when you
were not placed in the same situation. How anyone would react under similar
circumstances could depend on a lot of factors.

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:48:10 GMT, Nathan Young
> wrote:

>
>Was it just me, or was the controller excessively blase about the
>Mayday call?
>

That thought crossed my mind, too. However, I realize that time
compression may have amplified my impression. On the other hand, he's
like the first cop on the scene who has to say "nothing to see here
folks", and try to keep / restore order, even though he KNOWS there's
a mess.

He did quickly provide her with the options of a nearby airport,
freezing level, and groundspeed data. I think his even tone was a
plus. I remember the recording on Jay's site of the guy flipping and
spinning a piston single in the clouds. The controller's calm was
staggering, and I think it helps the pilot.

The way I look at it, it's stressful for anybody to hear those
transmissions, including other pilots, who provided a PIREP and asked
later about her.

We only have the sound of voices to base our Monday morning
quarterbacking on. We can say what we want, and it's not the
controller who crashes, blah, blah, blah... I believe everyone on
that frequency had a raised pulse, and he's got to keep everything
else in order at the same time.

I did find it weird that when he pointed out more, possibly freezing,
rain ahead, and that she's flying @ in 0C air, she didn't seem that
interested.

[Mxsmanic]

Viperdoc writes:

> It's easy to criticize the behavior of another person, especially when you
> were not placed in the same situation. How anyone would react under similar
> circumstances could depend on a lot of factors.

If the behavior gets that person killed, it probably merits a bit of
criticism.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> I did find it weird that when he pointed out more, possibly freezing,
> rain ahead, and that she's flying @ in 0C air, she didn't seem that
> interested.

She seemed a bit clueless. He mentions icing regularly and suggests
possible solutions, but she doesn't appear to hear him, and doesn't
seem to understand what the possible cause of her problem is herself.

I'm glad she wasn't carrying passengers.

--
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[Viperdoc[_4_]]

That's easy to say if you've never been in a similar situation.

[Peter Dohm]

> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The controller was behaving like a professional, unlike the pilot.
> >
> > The only reason she survived is that the ice started to melt--no
> > thanks to her, since she didn't seem to even be considering ice,
> > although the controller clearly had some good ideas.
> >
> > --
> > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>
>
Listen more carefully/completely...

[Mxsmanic]

Viperdoc writes:

> That's easy to say if you've never been in a similar situation.

It's also easy to say because it's true.

Regardless of what you might see in the movies, real astronauts,
military pilots, test pilots, and experienced commercial pilots--as
well as controllers--remain virtually emotionless even in very dire
circumstances. That's because they know they can't afford to panic.
There will be time for sweating and throwing up later, if necessary,
but the middle of an emergency is not the time.

People who panic and wail and scream and cry in an emergency make for
good drama, but they don't usually survive to talk about it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Montblack]

("Tony" wrote)
> She got control of an airplane that sounded like it was a flying ice cube
> in IMC -- I hope I can do as well in similiar circumstances.


It sounded like she got the hell scarred out of her. Autopilot issue? Ice?
Upper level wind sheer? Caravan icing issues? Two of the four? Even one of
the four...

She fought for control, maintained the altitude where she regained control,
disengaged the auto-pilot, quickly ran through dozens of (off radio) checks,
activated boots and heat, then descended below the freezing level.

It sounded to me like she was using 20% of her mental capacity to
communicate with ATC, while the other 80% was still darting about, searching
for answers - or making sure all was well.

Great job! Based on what I heard, I'd fly with her.


Montblack

[Peter Dohm]

> > She got control of an airplane that sounded like it was a flying ice
cube
> > in IMC -- I hope I can do as well in similiar circumstances.
>
>
> It sounded like she got the hell scarred out of her. Autopilot issue? Ice?
> Upper level wind sheer? Caravan icing issues? Two of the four? Even one of
> the four...
>
> She fought for control, maintained the altitude where she regained
control,
> disengaged the auto-pilot, quickly ran through dozens of (off radio)
checks,
> activated boots and heat, then descended below the freezing level.
>
> It sounded to me like she was using 20% of her mental capacity to
> communicate with ATC, while the other 80% was still darting about,
searching
> for answers - or making sure all was well.
>
> Great job! Based on what I heard, I'd fly with her.
>
>
Same here.

Knowing when it's over isn't necessarily easy,
but she managed to do that as well.

Peter

[Tony]

There's no evidence she paniced. She was scared, that came through
clear enough, but she regained control of the aircraft -- that's
number one, and she communicated -- that's number two. That's what
professionals do.

She may not had read the script the way some would have liked (even on
a good day she's not going to sound like Chuck Yeager) but she
executed her job well. Good on her! I doubt many of us would reject
her from the left seat, especially after the experience she gained
from this flight.






On Feb 3, 11:34 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Viperdoc writes:
> > That's easy to say if you've never been in a similar situation.
>
> It's also easy to say because it's true.
>
> Regardless of what you might see in the movies, real astronauts,
> military pilots, test pilots, and experienced commercial pilots--as
> well as controllers--remain virtually emotionless even in very dire
> circumstances. That's because they know they can't afford to panic.
> There will be time for sweating and throwing up later, if necessary,
> but the middle of an emergency is not the time.
>
> People who panic and wail and scream and cry in an emergency make for
> good drama, but they don't usually survive to talk about it.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[G. Sylvester]

What amazed me was she decided to continue the flight. I seriously
would have been looking for the nearest FBO to clean my underwear. And
she said she had something like 2.5 hours more to go.

Late at night a while back, there was this 10 minute interview with a
test pilot of military jets. The guy was completely void of all emotion.

On the otherhand, Mike Melville in the Discovery Channel SpaceShipOne
video (extremely highly recommended BTW) showed no emotion when he was
in a tail stall / spin (not sure what it was but something like that)
but on the ground seemed quite normal.

Gerald

[Cecil Chapman]

> She's a tough cookie -- I'd be landing ASAP, to change my shorts.
>
> :-)

I'm glad she made it, but her ADM sort of came into question in my head,
when after having gone through this frightening situation, she makes the
decision to continue (400NM) even though a pirep showed freezing levels at
even lower altitudes and the controller mentioned light rain along her route
of flight. Gotta admit when I got to that part I started wondering if it
was some (unbeknownst to you) some kind of internet prank/creation.

I thought she should have landed - inspected the plane (especially after
that controller mentioned he might be having trouble hearing her because of
ice on her antennae - I would wonder more about those chunks of ice that may
have broken off when she cycled the boots, whether a piece might of flown
back and bent/partially broke off her com. antennae)?

I dunno, I say, better safer than sorry OR dead..

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman
CFI-A, CP-ASEL-IA

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message

[Peter Dohm]

> There's no evidence she paniced. She was scared, that came through
> clear enough, but she regained control of the aircraft -- that's
> number one, and she communicated -- that's number two. That's what
> professionals do.
>
> She may not had read the script the way some would have liked (even on
> a good day she's not going to sound like Chuck Yeager) but she
> executed her job well. Good on her! I doubt many of us would reject
> her from the left seat, especially after the experience she gained
> from this flight.
>
>
Well said. And a shame to waste it on the troll.

[Owen Rogers[_1_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Viperdoc writes:
>
> > That's easy to say if you've never been in a similar situation.
>
> It's also easy to say because it's true.
>
> Regardless of what you might see in the movies, real astronauts,
> military pilots, test pilots, and experienced commercial pilots--as
> well as controllers--remain virtually emotionless even in very dire
> circumstances. That's because they know they can't afford to panic.
> There will be time for sweating and throwing up later, if necessary,
> but the middle of an emergency is not the time.
>
> People who panic and wail and scream and cry in an emergency make for
> good drama, but they don't usually survive to talk about it.

That's one of the most ignorant things I've read yet. Even Chuck Yeager
wrote of how he was sobbing when asked to repeat something while he was
encountering a big problem that he fully expected to end his life within
the next few seconds. Controllers remain emotionless?? Are you kidding
me? I can often hear the pitch go up just when the pattern starts
filling up, let alone when there is a real situation.

[Kev]

> [..] The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
> really points out how quickly things can go bad.

I dunno, from her repetition and confusion, she sounded totally to me
like a freight dog who fell asleep, and woke up to the plane doing
something unexpected. Probably missing pitot heat , like the
controller suggested.

Reminded me of that (IFR mag?) story from a controller who noticed the
usual cancelled check flight, continue past his airport late one
night. He kept other aircraft out of his way, alerted center, and
waited to see what would happen. Sure enough, about fifty miles past
his airport, the radar target suddenly wavered, then circled, then
called in sleepily for vectors back to the airport.

Kev

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> There's no evidence she paniced. She was scared, that came through
> clear enough, but she regained control of the aircraft -- that's
> number one, and she communicated -- that's number two. That's what
> professionals do.

Her voice sounded a lot more like panic or hysteria than fear.
Compare it to other voice recordings where the pilot is manifestly
terrified, and you can hear a difference.

> She may not had read the script the way some would have liked (even on
> a good day she's not going to sound like Chuck Yeager) but she
> executed her job well. Good on her! I doubt many of us would reject
> her from the left seat, especially after the experience she gained
> from this flight.

She still didn't seem to have a clue as to what went wrong at the end
of the incident. I think she only survived because the ice melted.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Owen Rogers writes:

> That's one of the most ignorant things I've read yet. Even Chuck Yeager
> wrote of how he was sobbing when asked to repeat something while he was
> encountering a big problem that he fully expected to end his life within
> the next few seconds. Controllers remain emotionless?? Are you kidding
> me? I can often hear the pitch go up just when the pattern starts
> filling up, let alone when there is a real situation.

The fact remains, the calmer you can keep yourself, the safer you'll
be.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Taylor]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Dan writes:
>
> > I suppose hindsight is 20/20, but her comments of "I just dropped at
> > 2000 feet per minute with uncommnaded rolls.... I have no idea what
> > happened..... let's continue 2.5 hours to Bangor" don't really seem to
> > make much sense to me.
> >
> > If a plane did that and I didn't have any idea why, I'd lean towards
> > getting it on the ground ASAP.
> >
> > I suppose at some point, she must have realized that the ice was
> > coming off...
>
> It's not clear that she ever even thinks about ice;

You must have an amazing talent to know what someone might be "thinking"
about.


> I don't recall her
> ever mentioning it. Only ATC talks about that.

So what? If I picked up some ice, I'm not sure I would be talking about it
either.

[Dallas]

On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:42:19 -0800, G. Sylvester wrote:

> What amazed me was she decided to continue the flight.

Indeed... Even if she was 99% sure it was ice there's still that 1% chance
she's wrong. Wouldn't it make good sense to get it on the ground and check
everything out?

On top of that, she's just had a massive jolt of adrenaline. If you've
ever had one you know that it takes more than a few minutes to get your
system back to normal.

I watched a car in front of me roll over and catch fire. The occupant came
out of the window severely burned and several of us who had stopped managed
to get him and hold him down until the ambulance came, which seemed like
half and hour. The guy looked like something out of a horror movie with
planks of his skin separating from his body. The whole experience had me
screwed up for several hours. I can't speak for her physiological state,
but I wouldn't think it's a good idea to fly in that condition if you have
a choice.

--
Dallas

[Philip S.]

in article , Mxsmanic at
wrote on 2/3/07 1:06 PM:

> Tony writes:
>
>> There's no evidence she paniced. She was scared, that came through
>> clear enough, but she regained control of the aircraft -- that's
>> number one, and she communicated -- that's number two. That's what
>> professionals do.
>
> Her voice sounded a lot more like panic or hysteria than fear.
> Compare it to other voice recordings where the pilot is manifestly
> terrified, and you can hear a difference.

The tone of voice of both the pilot and the controller is absolutely
immaterial. It in no way gives us a clue as to their respective actions
while they were talking. As someone else pointed out, it's quite possible
that the pilot's hands and eyes were busily doing exactly what they'd been
trained to do, even while her voice betrayed fear.

>> She may not had read the script the way some would have liked (even on
>> a good day she's not going to sound like Chuck Yeager) but she
>> executed her job well. Good on her! I doubt many of us would reject
>> her from the left seat, especially after the experience she gained
>> from this flight.
>
> She still didn't seem to have a clue as to what went wrong at the end
> of the incident. I think she only survived because the ice melted.

Yeah, and I've only survived a couple hundred flights because the engine
didn't quit.

[buttman]

On Feb 2, 1:51 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
> severe icing conditions.
>
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-May...
>
> (It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)
>
> This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
> airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
> really points out how quickly things can go bad.
> --


Has there EVER been a voice recording of an incident where the
consensus is that the pilot handled the situation in the WRONG way? It
seems that every time one of these are posted, no matter how much the
pilot freaks out, people always respond with "Oh that pilot stayed so
calm, what a great job. I'd fly with him/her!!". It seems to me that
people don't have a very good idea what a normal level of "freaking
out" is when dealing with an emergency. For instance, the mayor of New
Orleans in my opinion did not handle the Katrina situation as well as
Rudy handled the 9/11 tragedy. Remember the NO guy yelling over the
phone, blaming the federal government? Rudy never did that. He stayed
calm and did what needed to get done, without whining or panicking.
When in danger, the leader (or PIC in this case) should not lose their
cool. That doesn't mean they have to be stone faced, but a good leader
resists the urge to go into all-out panic mode.


Honestly, comparing this one to other similar voice recordings I've
heard, this woman went bonkers. I wouldn't say she is a terrible
pilot, but at the same time, I don't think she handled this situation
as best as she could have. I think this woman was lucky. Going by what
I heard on the MP3, if things had been a little different, she may not
have made it. It's my opinion that she was saved by dumb luck. All
though with more info I may be proven wrong.

[B A R R Y]

On 3 Feb 2007 15:48:52 -0800, "buttman" > wrote:


>
>Has there EVER been a voice recording of an incident where the
>consensus is that the pilot handled the situation in the WRONG way? It
>seems that every time one of these are posted, no matter how much the
>pilot freaks out, people always respond with "Oh that pilot stayed so
>calm, what a great job. I'd fly with him/her!!". It seems to me that
>people don't have a very good idea what a normal level of "freaking
>out" is when dealing with an emergency.

Yeah.

They often end with statements like:

- "Oh, God!"
- "****"
- "Awwww"
- "Ah.. Here we go..."

Get the picture?

Sometimes, like the Alaska Air stab trim failure, they did the best
they could, but it still ended poorly. Other times, they got
themselves there.

For those that got themselves in the situation and couldn't get out, I
can only honor them by trying not to repeat it.

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"buttman" > wrote:

> Has there EVER been a voice recording of an incident where the
> consensus is that the pilot handled the situation in the WRONG way? It
> seems that every time one of these are posted, no matter how much the
> pilot freaks out, people always respond with "Oh that pilot stayed so
> calm, what a great job. I'd fly with him/her!!".

Several years ago there was an mp3 circulated I guess in an attempt to show how
vauable ATC is. A guy was calling mayday because he was in a spin (apparently)
but survived after popping out of the bottom of the clouds.

I don't think many people would say the "pilot stayed so calm"

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Mxsmanic]

Taylor writes:

> You must have an amazing talent to know what someone might be "thinking"
> about.

I know what they talked about. The controller mentioned icing many
times; the pilot never said anything about it that I can recall. She
didn't appear to be listening. And she didn't seem worried about
picking up ice.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Philip S. writes:

> The tone of voice of both the pilot and the controller is absolutely
> immaterial. It in no way gives us a clue as to their respective actions
> while they were talking.

It says a lot about their state of mind, however.

> As someone else pointed out, it's quite possible
> that the pilot's hands and eyes were busily doing exactly what they'd been
> trained to do, even while her voice betrayed fear.

I'm not sure I heard much in the way of fear in her voice. It sounded
more like a hysterical irritation, like "how dare the aircraft refuse
to obey me!"

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

buttman writes:

> Has there EVER been a voice recording of an incident where the
> consensus is that the pilot handled the situation in the WRONG way? It
> seems that every time one of these are posted, no matter how much the
> pilot freaks out, people always respond with "Oh that pilot stayed so
> calm, what a great job. I'd fly with him/her!!".

I wouldn't fly with this pilot, or with any pilot who couldn't keep
his cool in an emergency.

> When in danger, the leader (or PIC in this case) should not lose their
> cool. That doesn't mean they have to be stone faced, but a good leader
> resists the urge to go into all-out panic mode.

Yes. Panic is counter-productive.

> Honestly, comparing this one to other similar voice recordings I've
> heard, this woman went bonkers.

Agreed.

> I wouldn't say she is a terrible
> pilot, but at the same time, I don't think she handled this situation
> as best as she could have. I think this woman was lucky. Going by what
> I heard on the MP3, if things had been a little different, she may not
> have made it. It's my opinion that she was saved by dumb luck. All
> though with more info I may be proven wrong.

I agree. She got lucky. She did nothing to recover, she just had
some random luck. She didn't even seem to know what had happened.
She ignored every mention of icing, and her actions indicate that she
wasn't concerned about icing, even though she didn't really know what
was wrong.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[James Robinson]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Taylor writes:
>
>> You must have an amazing talent to know what someone might be
>> "thinking" about.
>
> I know what they talked about. The controller mentioned icing many
> times; the pilot never said anything about it that I can recall. She
> didn't appear to be listening. And she didn't seem worried about
> picking up ice.

You weren't listening very closely. She said that she had turned on the
heat and boots, and that is likely what allowed her to regain control.

Icing is a well-known problem with Caravans, and the FAA has recently
issued some ADs as a result of the number of icing accidents and
incidents. Any regular Caravan pilot would be well aware of the
problem.

By the time the controller was mentioning icing, the pilot had already
taken the necessary actions, and had things under control.

Consider that the plane was probably cruising along on autopilot, when
the autopilot shut off and the plane went into a sudden dive. The pilot
would be shaken out of lethargy, and be trying to sort out what likely
happened. The uneven loss of ice buildup perhaps explained the wild
gyrations, with the pilot struggling for control. It's amazing she had
the presence of mind to communicate with everything else going on.

[Dave[_3_]]

" 'Sperience...."

" What you now have all kinds of....

Just AFTER you really needed it.."

Dave






On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 02:24:15 GMT, "GDBholdings" > wrote:

>
>"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>> Steve A writes:
>>
>>> Spoken bravely by someone who's "crash" will not cause anything more
>>> than re-starting the simulation. It is a bit different when your butt
>>> is strapped into the airplane, moving through real three dimensional
>>> space, and the airplane is out of control.
>>
>> Yes, if you get hysterical in a real plane, there's a good chance that
>> you'll kill yourself.
>>
>> --
>> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>
>Msxmanic does have a point in the fact that if you panic and/or get
>hysterical during a in-flight emergency there is a good chance that you will
>lose total control and crash. However in this case I didn't feel that the
>pilot was in panic mode but rather was VERY concerned about the fact that
>she couldn't maintain altitude or airspeed and communicated to ATC that she
>did indeed have a serious in-flight emergency. I myself think she did a very
>good job of keeping control of the aircraft.
>
>>It sounds a lot more like hysteria than terror. This surprises me
>coming from a commercial pilot.
>
>Doesn't surprise me at all, just because someone has a commercial license
>doesn't mean that they are immune to panic. Training for emergencies is the
>best way to survive an in-flight emergency but training is training and I
>feel doesn't have the same impact as the real thing.
>
>Having said all that I am happy that she survived the ordeal and hopefully
>will come away from this a better more experienced pilot!!
>

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
<...>
> She seemed a bit clueless. He mentions icing regularly and suggests
> possible solutions, but she doesn't appear to hear him, and doesn't
> seem to understand what the possible cause of her problem is herself.
<...>

I wouldn't normally do this, but...

HELLO - ANTHONY!!!!

WHO THE **** DO YOU THINK CLEARED THE ICE WITH THE BOOTS AND HEAT??? THE
CONTROLLER?????

You have gone ON AND ON claiming that she didn't understand that there was
ice - I have to conclude that you A) didn't listen to the tape or B) DIDN'T
UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS SAID- _WERE_ _YOU_ _PAYING_ _ATTENTION_???????

SHE CLEARLY DETERMINED THAT SHE HAD ICE. IF YOU HAD LISTENED TO THE TAPE
YOU WOULD HAVE HEARD HER _C_L_E_A_R_L_Y_ SAY THAT SHE HAD TURNED ON THE
BOOTS AND HEAT AND WAS ABLE TO REGAIN CONTROL!!!!

BOOTS AND HEAT - BOOTS AND HEAT - BOOTS AND HEAT - DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT
MEANS?

AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR? DO YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH? SHE SAID SHE KNEW SHE
HAD ICE. AND! SHE! DID! SOMETHING! ABOUT! IT!!! BOOTS! AND! HEAT!!!!!!

hellLLLLOOOoooo PAY ATTENTION DUDE!!!!

There. Now I feel better.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress
--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[DaveB]

On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 21:25:16 -0500, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:

>"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
><...>
>> She seemed a bit clueless. He mentions icing regularly and suggests
>> possible solutions, but she doesn't appear to hear him, and doesn't
>> seem to understand what the possible cause of her problem is herself.
><...>
>
>I wouldn't normally do this, but...
>
>HELLO - ANTHONY!!!!
>
>WHO THE **** DO YOU THINK CLEARED THE ICE WITH THE BOOTS AND HEAT??? THE
>CONTROLLER?????
>
>You have gone ON AND ON claiming that she didn't understand that there was
>ice - I have to conclude that you A) didn't listen to the tape or B) DIDN'T
>UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS SAID- _WERE_ _YOU_ _PAYING_ _ATTENTION_???????
>
>SHE CLEARLY DETERMINED THAT SHE HAD ICE. IF YOU HAD LISTENED TO THE TAPE
>YOU WOULD HAVE HEARD HER _C_L_E_A_R_L_Y_ SAY THAT SHE HAD TURNED ON THE
>BOOTS AND HEAT AND WAS ABLE TO REGAIN CONTROL!!!!
>
>BOOTS AND HEAT - BOOTS AND HEAT - BOOTS AND HEAT - DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT
>MEANS?
>
>AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR? DO YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH? SHE SAID SHE KNEW SHE
>HAD ICE. AND! SHE! DID! SOMETHING! ABOUT! IT!!! BOOTS! AND! HEAT!!!!!!
>
>hellLLLLOOOoooo PAY ATTENTION DUDE!!!!
>
>There. Now I feel better.
>
>We now return you to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress
>--
>Geoff
>The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
>remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
>When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>
>
what are boots
Daveb

[Tony]

The transcript clearly has her saying she turned on boots and heat.

Maybe it's the water in Paris, at least the water or water substitute
Anthony drinks.
..




On Feb 3, 7:15 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> buttman writes:
> > Has there EVER been a voice recording of an incident where the
> > consensus is that the pilot handled the situation in the WRONG way? It
> > seems that every time one of these are posted, no matter how much the
> > pilot freaks out, people always respond with "Oh that pilot stayed so
> > calm, what a great job. I'd fly with him/her!!".
>
> I wouldn't fly with this pilot, or with any pilot who couldn't keep
> his cool in an emergency.
>
> > When in danger, the leader (or PIC in this case) should not lose their
> > cool. That doesn't mean they have to be stone faced, but a good leader
> > resists the urge to go into all-out panic mode.
>
> Yes. Panic is counter-productive.
>
> > Honestly, comparing this one to other similar voice recordings I've
> > heard, this woman went bonkers.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > I wouldn't say she is a terrible
> > pilot, but at the same time, I don't think she handled this situation
> > as best as she could have. I think this woman was lucky. Going by what
> > I heard on the MP3, if things had been a little different, she may not
> > have made it. It's my opinion that she was saved by dumb luck. All
> > though with more info I may be proven wrong.
>
> I agree. She got lucky. She did nothing to recover, she just had
> some random luck. She didn't even seem to know what had happened.
> She ignored every mention of icing, and her actions indicate that she
> wasn't concerned about icing, even though she didn't really know what
> was wrong.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Morgans]

<DaveB> wrote

> what are boots?

They are those things you put on your feet when it is cold and wet outside.

<g>

Sorry, but I couldn't resist!

Really, they are on some planes, usually midsized to smaller sizes that have
ice protection. They are a rubber skin that sits tightly on the leading
edge of the wing, and back over the top a ways. When ice builds up, they
are inflated with air, either manually, or automatically, and the ice cracks
and blows away.

Ice building up on the front and front top of the wing has a larger
detrimental effect on an airfoil than other places on the wing, but it isn't
good, anywhere. The heat referred to was the heat on the probe that
measures airspeed, and possibly on a few other places, like windshield and
propeller.

Google deicing boots.
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
> <...>
>
>>She seemed a bit clueless. He mentions icing regularly and suggests
>>possible solutions, but she doesn't appear to hear him, and doesn't
>>seem to understand what the possible cause of her problem is herself.
>
> <...>
>
> I wouldn't normally do this, but...
>
> HELLO - ANTHONY!!!!
>
> WHO THE **** DO YOU THINK CLEARED THE ICE WITH THE BOOTS AND HEAT??? THE
> CONTROLLER?????
>
> You have gone ON AND ON claiming that she didn't understand that there was
> ice - I have to conclude that you A) didn't listen to the tape or B) DIDN'T
> UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS SAID- _WERE_ _YOU_ _PAYING_ _ATTENTION_???????
>
> SHE CLEARLY DETERMINED THAT SHE HAD ICE. IF YOU HAD LISTENED TO THE TAPE
> YOU WOULD HAVE HEARD HER _C_L_E_A_R_L_Y_ SAY THAT SHE HAD TURNED ON THE
> BOOTS AND HEAT AND WAS ABLE TO REGAIN CONTROL!!!!
>
> BOOTS AND HEAT - BOOTS AND HEAT - BOOTS AND HEAT - DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT
> MEANS?
>
> AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR? DO YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH? SHE SAID SHE KNEW SHE
> HAD ICE. AND! SHE! DID! SOMETHING! ABOUT! IT!!! BOOTS! AND! HEAT!!!!!!
>
> hellLLLLOOOoooo PAY ATTENTION DUDE!!!!
>
> There. Now I feel better.
>
> We now return you to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress
> --

Is the Ritalin running low? :-)

Matt

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

<DaveB> wrote in message ...
<...>>
> what are boots
> Daveb

Rubber "boots" are applied to the leading edge of wings and other surfaces -
they can be inflated from underneath to crack off any accumulated ice.
Essentally they are a thin layer of rubber sealed around the edges that
wraps around the leading edge and goes back a short way on the upper surface
of the wing.

Aircraft with them installed look like the leading edge of the wing was
painted black.

Now, as far as this particular incident is concerned, I suspect that she
should have had them turned on earlier...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Owen Roberts]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> buttman writes:
>
> > Has there EVER been a voice recording of an incident where the
> > consensus is that the pilot handled the situation in the WRONG way? It
> > seems that every time one of these are posted, no matter how much the
> > pilot freaks out, people always respond with "Oh that pilot stayed so
> > calm, what a great job. I'd fly with him/her!!".
>
> I wouldn't fly with this pilot, or with any pilot who couldn't keep
> his cool in an emergency.

Oh please. I've heard a lot of people sound a lot more excited than that
riding a roller coaster at Six Flags. One's attention and nerves should be
focused on flying the damn airplane, not their tone inflection while on the
radio. If there's anything to fault her for, it is not landing as soon as
possible to check everything out. Maybe she did after the clip ended, who
knows.

>
>
> > When in danger, the leader (or PIC in this case) should not lose their
> > cool. That doesn't mean they have to be stone faced, but a good leader
> > resists the urge to go into all-out panic mode.
>
> Yes. Panic is counter-productive.

That's good. You listened to a tape where nobody panicked and therefore
stayed alive.

[Philip S.]

in article , Matt Whiting at
wrote on 2/3/07 6:54 PM:

> Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> <...>
>>
>>> She seemed a bit clueless. He mentions icing regularly and suggests
>>> possible solutions, but she doesn't appear to hear him, and doesn't
>>> seem to understand what the possible cause of her problem is herself.
>>
>> <...>
>>
>> I wouldn't normally do this, but...
>>
>> HELLO - ANTHONY!!!!
>>
>> WHO THE **** DO YOU THINK CLEARED THE ICE WITH THE BOOTS AND HEAT??? THE
>> CONTROLLER?????
>>
>> You have gone ON AND ON claiming that she didn't understand that there was
>> ice - I have to conclude that you A) didn't listen to the tape or B) DIDN'T
>> UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS SAID- _WERE_ _YOU_ _PAYING_ _ATTENTION_???????
>>
>> SHE CLEARLY DETERMINED THAT SHE HAD ICE. IF YOU HAD LISTENED TO THE TAPE
>> YOU WOULD HAVE HEARD HER _C_L_E_A_R_L_Y_ SAY THAT SHE HAD TURNED ON THE
>> BOOTS AND HEAT AND WAS ABLE TO REGAIN CONTROL!!!!
>>
>> BOOTS AND HEAT - BOOTS AND HEAT - BOOTS AND HEAT - DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT
>> MEANS?
>>
>> AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR? DO YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH? SHE SAID SHE KNEW SHE
>> HAD ICE. AND! SHE! DID! SOMETHING! ABOUT! IT!!! BOOTS! AND! HEAT!!!!!!
>>
>> hellLLLLOOOoooo PAY ATTENTION DUDE!!!!
>>
>> There. Now I feel better.
>>
>> We now return you to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress
>> --
>
> Is the Ritalin running low? :-)
>
> Matt

Frankly, I was impressed by his restraint.

[Jay Honeck]

> Several years ago there was an mp3 circulated I guess in an attempt to show how
> vauable ATC is. A guy was calling mayday because he was in a spin (apparently)
> but survived after popping out of the bottom of the clouds.
>
> I don't think many people would say the "pilot stayed so calm"

That would be this one, from Ft. Dodge, IA Flight Service station, via
our website:

http://alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/flightassist.mp3

Although most of it is an infomercial for Flight Service, the audio
portion of the out-of-control pilot should be required listening for
all new pilots.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans]

"Philip S." > wrote

> Frankly, I was impressed by his restraint.

I remember back about 20 years, I had a T-shirt that said something like
this:

Self-control: the ability to keep yourself from choking the crap out of a
person who desperately needs, and deserves it.

I'm afraid that would have to be the case with me.
--
Jim in NC

[GeorgeC]

Here is the same thing with subtitles


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW3mKE6gtOg&mode=related&search=


On 3 Feb 2007 19:45:21 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>> Several years ago there was an mp3 circulated I guess in an attempt to show how
>> vauable ATC is. A guy was calling mayday because he was in a spin (apparently)
>> but survived after popping out of the bottom of the clouds.
>>
>> I don't think many people would say the "pilot stayed so calm"
>
>That would be this one, from Ft. Dodge, IA Flight Service station, via
>our website:
>
>http://alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/flightassist.mp3
>
>Although most of it is an infomercial for Flight Service, the audio
>portion of the out-of-control pilot should be required listening for
>all new pilots.

GeorgeC

[**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**]

I thought so too, it wasn't clear he was offering much in the way of
attention to her situation, and I heard someone at the ATC laughing in
the background at one point. I think her decision to fly on after
regaining control (and composure) was preferrable to trying to land
immediately while still in shock.

Nathan Young wrote:

>On 2 Feb 2007 13:51:44 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>
>
>>This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
>>severe icing conditions.
>>
>>http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-Mayday.mp3
>>
>>(It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)
>>
>>This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
>>airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
>>really points out how quickly things can go bad.
>>
>>
>
>Was it just me, or was the controller excessively blase about the
>Mayday call?
>
>
>
>

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

[mike regish]

The difference between a controller and a pilot is: If a pilot screws up,
the pilot dies. If the controller screws up, the pilot dies.

Or somethiing like that...

mike

"Aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...

> The controller was so relaxed during the whole thing.

[Viperdoc[_4_]]

I didn't hear her talk about boots, but only listened once. As I recall,
Caravans do not have boots, and are not certificated for flight in known
ice. This is also true because those big struts also can pick up a lot of
ice. Prop de ice may be electric.

The only option for KI certification is through the installation of TKS,
which also protects the struts.

I would ignore any comments from Anthony about the pilot being scared- he
readily admits that he's afraid to fly in a real plane, and lives in an
imaginary world, where crises are addressed by pushing the reset button.

[Mxsmanic]

James Robinson writes:

> Consider that the plane was probably cruising along on autopilot, when
> the autopilot shut off and the plane went into a sudden dive. The pilot
> would be shaken out of lethargy ...

The pilot's first mistake is to become lethargic. If she had nothing
else to do such that she was getting sleepy, then she could have spent
her time watching the behavior of the autopilot to see if it was
struggling to maintain the attitude of the aircraft. This is
especially true if autopilot movements are reflected in movements of
the controls.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Owen Roberts writes:

> One's attention and nerves should be
> focused on flying the damn airplane, not their tone inflection while on the
> radio.

In practice, one's tone on the radio is often a reflection of
attention and nerves while flying the airplane.

> That's good. You listened to a tape where nobody panicked and therefore
> stayed alive.

She panicked for a time. If the ice hadn't started to melt (not
necessarily through any action of her own), she'd probably be dead.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
>I didn't hear her talk about boots, but only listened once. As I recall,
>Caravans do not have boots, and are not certificated for flight in known
>ice. This is also true because those big struts also can pick up a lot of
>ice. Prop de ice may be electric.
>
> The only option for KI certification is through the installation of TKS,
> which also protects the struts.
>
> I would ignore any comments from Anthony about the pilot being scared- he
> readily admits that he's afraid to fly in a real plane, and lives in an
> imaginary world, where crises are addressed by pushing the reset button.

7:04 into the recording "It absolutly went into a dive without any warning.
And I turned on boots and, um, I turned on heat and, um, I think, I think
that may have done it, I think I'm OK now"

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[mike regish]

Sounds to me like she stayed very flustered even after regaining control,
and was beginning to realize that she should have realized it was ice long
before she finally did something about it. She regained the composure in her
voice, but she was still clearly confused-at least not thinking clearly-for
quite a while.

Even after regaining control, she did not switch to 121.5. And with a high
wing and not being able to see any ice the boots might have missed, deciding
to continue for 2.5 hours was a foolish decision, especially with the
information provided by ATC that there was serious potential to pick up more
ice on the way.

JMO

mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan" >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: Scary Icing ATC tape


>I suppose hindsight is 20/20, but her comments of "I just dropped at
> 2000 feet per minute with uncommnaded rolls.... I have no idea what
> happened..... let's continue 2.5 hours to Bangor" don't really seem to
> make much sense to me.
>
> If a plane did that and I didn't have any idea why, I'd lean towards
> getting it on the ground ASAP.
>
> I suppose at some point, she must have realized that the ice was
> coming off...
>
> --Dan

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:07:21 -0500, "mike regish" >
wrote:

>
>Even after regaining control, she did not switch to 121.5.

Why should she? Staying where they were seemed to work fine for all
involved, and even generated a freezing level PIREP.

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 06:41:01 -0600, "Viperdoc"
> wrote:

>I didn't hear her talk about boots, but only listened once. As I recall,
>Caravans do not have boots, and are not certificated for flight in known
>ice. This is also true because those big struts also can pick up a lot of
>ice. Prop de ice may be electric.
>
>The only option for KI certification is through the installation of TKS,
>which also protects the struts.

Caravans have an option for known-icing systems with boots (perhaps an
STC?). We've installed some.

[Newps]

> On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:07:21 -0500, "mike regish" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Even after regaining control, she did not switch to 121.5.




You only tune to 121.5 if you're not already talking to someone.

[James Robinson]

"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> I didn't hear her talk about boots, but only listened once. As I
> recall, Caravans do not have boots, and are not certificated for
> flight in known ice. This is also true because those big struts also
> can pick up a lot of ice. Prop de ice may be electric.

Here is a discussion of the Caravan anti-ice system:

http://www.ainonline.com/Issues/03_06/0306_caravanicing_1.htm

Included in the above is:

"The aircraft’s anti-icing system includes operational leading-edge de-
ice boots on the wings and horizontal and vertical stabilizers, propeller
anti-ice boots, windshield anti-ice panel, heated pitot-static and stall-
warning systems, a standby electrical system, a wing ice-detection light
and an engine inertial separator."

TKS is an option.

A year ago, an AD was issued:

"Effective February 22, operators are required to install a pilot-assist
handle to allow inspection of the upper surface of the wing and de-icing
boots for the landing gear struts and cargo pod by June 27"

> The only option for KI certification is through the installation of
> TKS, which also protects the struts.

Boots are an acceptable alternative.

Also note that in the cited article, a Cessna spokesman said:

“There has never been a civilian airplane built that can withstand flight
into continuous known icing under moderate or severe conditions,” and
“it’s the pilot’s responsibility to recognize and exit those conditions.”

[Peter Dohm]

> >
> >Was it just me, or was the controller excessively blase about the
> >Mayday call?
> >
> >

> I thought so too, it wasn't clear he was offering much in the way of
> attention to her situation, and I heard someone at the ATC laughing in
> the background at one point. I think her decision to fly on after
> regaining control (and composure) was preferrable to trying to land
> immediately while still in shock.
>
IMOH, a lot of you guys really need to lighten up; and remember the
purpose for which the tape was released--to remind the pilots attending
Wings Seminars that: "ice is nasty stuff!"

The pilot did enough things right, under adverse conditions, to effect a
recovery--and the icing level was at high enough altitude to do so. It
worked, the pilot is more experienced as a result, and the real message is
to take predictions and reports of ice seriously--and inflate them as
necessary for the relative size of the aircraft.

That probably would have been the topic of this discussion if Anthony--a/k/a
mxsmanic--had not intervened. He was become a VERY effective Troll, as
evidenced by his ability to lead and occasionally to terminate discussion
threads--usually by starting a new conversation more to his liking.

As to the controller, he got other traffic through his sector and out of the
way--which I presume was his primary duty--and made appropriate suggestions.
Sounded good to me.

In summary, remember the purpose of the tape.

Let's all try to remember that old saying, occasionally attributed to Will
Rogers: "Be careful arguing with a fool, people might not be able to tell
the difference."

Peter

[James Robinson]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Owen Roberts writes:
>
>> That's good. You listened to a tape where nobody panicked and
>> therefore stayed alive.
>
> She panicked for a time. If the ice hadn't started to melt (not
> necessarily through any action of her own), she'd probably be dead.

Always nice to be an armchair pilot, isn't it?

The ice came off because the pilot turned on the boots. It did not melt.

[Danny Deger]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> This is the audio tape of a Fed Ex Caravan pilot who tangled with some
> severe icing conditions.
>
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-1-26_N1278L-Mayday.mp3
>
> (It's a good-sized .mp3 file, so be patient while it downloads...)
>
> This was given to me by our local FAA safety guy, to share with our
> airport user's group. The stark terror in her voice is chilling, and
> really points out how quickly things can go bad.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

She was obviously stressed by thinking she was going to die, but maintained
aircraft control. I think she did good.

It sounds to me the controller missed her first Mayday calls, but turned
around and did a good job.

Danny Deger

[mike regish]

She had things under control. She could have switched at talked at will to
ATC without the whole world listening in. Nearly half of that audio occurs
after she regained control.

mike

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:07:21 -0500, "mike regish" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Even after regaining control, she did not switch to 121.5.
>
> Why should she? Staying where they were seemed to work fine for all
> involved, and even generated a freezing level PIREP.
>

[Tony]

Why would you think she was not talkng on the correct frequency?

[Peter R.]

On 2/2/2007 11:23:08 PM, "Dan" wrote:

> If a plane did that and I didn't have any idea why, I'd lean towards
> getting it on the ground ASAP.

Back when this first happened, I talked about it with a chief flight
instructor who used to fly Caravans for a FedEx regional carrier. He told me
the pressure to complete cargo flights is great.

> I suppose at some point, she must have realized that the ice was
> coming off...

From what I recall, at 6,000 feet this pilot was in air that was above
freezing and also below the cloud layer.

--
Peter

[mike regish]

Didn't say she wasn't.

mike


"Tony" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> Why would you think she was not talkng on the correct frequency?
>

[Peter R.]

On 2/2/2007 11:42:00 PM, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

> I often receive "new" videos, submitted for inclusion on our video
> webpage, that came straight from my site -- two years ago.

If you could do me a favor and credit LiveATC.net for the clip since that is
where the clip originated, I would appreciate it. As you may be aware,
LiveATC.net is a not-for-profit site made up of aviation and ATC fans and the
site could always use a good plug.

The botched Oshkosh arrival from the inept pilot clip also originated from
there, but I don't know if you have it on your site. That one, which is one I
compiled from archived ATC clips, also made its rounds on several websites
without any credit.




--
Peter

[Peter R.]

On 2/3/2007 7:41:13 AM, B A R R Y wrote:

>
> I did find it weird that when he pointed out more, possibly freezing,
> rain ahead, and that she's flying @ in 0C air, she didn't seem that
> interested.

I recall the conditions that night as it was over Buffalo, NY, a city to
which I commute weekly via my Bonanza V35.

The controller was wrong in assuming there was freezing rain. Rather, the
precipitation to which he referred was really snow. Her demise was a case of
good old rime icing in the clouds.

--
Peter

[Jay Honeck]

> If you could do me a favor and credit LiveATC.net for the clip since that is
> where the clip originated, I would appreciate it.

Will do.

> The botched Oshkosh arrival from the inept pilot clip also originated from
> there, but I don't know if you have it on your site. That one, which is one I
> compiled from archived ATC clips, also made its rounds on several websites
> without any credit.

No, I have never included that one on the page, for fear of
embarrassing the guy to death. I figured I'd let a year or so pass,
and then add it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[601XL Builder]

DaveB wrote:

> what are boots

Deicing boots on the leading edge of the wings. They inflate to clear ice.

[B A R R Y]

On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 03:08:55 -0500, **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**
> wrote:

> I heard someone at the ATC laughing in
>the background at one point.

I've only seen two TRACON's, but it would be understandable if others
in the room didn't have a clue she had a problem.

[john smith]

In article >,
"Peter R." > wrote:

> The botched Oshkosh arrival from the inept pilot clip also originated from
> there, but I don't know if you have it on your site. That one, which is one I
> compiled from archived ATC clips, also made its rounds on several websites
> without any credit.

Peter, thanks for hosting LiveATC.
Along the lines of Oshkosh, could you possibly add the FISKE frequency
to the AirVenture 2007 feed? Also, it would prove entertaining to hear
the conversations in the holding patterns following last year's fiasco.

[Peter R.]

On 2/4/2007 8:13:46 PM, john smith wrote:

> Peter, thanks for hosting LiveATC.

John, LiveATC is not my brainchild. David Pascoe is the owner, operator, and
number one volunteer for that site. I am but one of many regional volunteers
who feeds my local airport's frequencies to LiveATC via my scanner, computer,
and always-on Internet connection.

While Dave provides some of the Boston low and high frequencies via his own
hardware, the majority of other feeds are sent to him by regional volunteers
across the US and the world.

> Along the lines of Oshkosh, could you possibly add the FISKE frequency
> to the AirVenture 2007 feed? Also, it would prove entertaining to hear
> the conversations in the holding patterns following last year's fiasco.

The Oshkosh volunteer disappears from LiveATC.net after the event ends, then
resurfaces about a week before AirVenture begins. I will be sure to pass that
request on to him when he does reappear, but often what frequencies you hear
are dependent on the local volunteer's proximity to the various transmitting
towers.

--
Peter

[john smith]

In article >,
"Peter R." > wrote:

> John, LiveATC is not my brainchild. David Pascoe is the owner, operator, and
> number one volunteer for that site. I am but one of many regional volunteers
> who feeds my local airport's frequencies to LiveATC via my scanner, computer,
> and always-on Internet connection.

Is there a FAQ somewhere about how to provide a feed?

[Peter R.]

On 2/4/2007 9:17:42 PM, john smith wrote:

> Is there a FAQ somewhere about how to provide a feed?

There are a couple of FAQs in LiveATC's forum, but from the home page:

----------- start ------------------

HELP WANTED!

Feeder Sites

If you are within 20 miles of an airport and have a police scanner or any
airband-capable scanning receiver, please consider becoming a feeder site.

Besides the scanner, you need:
- an always-on Internet connection (uses ~16kbps)
- an external antenna (preferred for optimum reception)
- audio cable to connect scanner to PC's sound card
- a PC running Windows or Linux
- free software we provide and help you set up

-------------------- end ----------------------

You can then contact Dave directly using this form:

http://www.liveatc.net/contactform/form.php

He is *very* helpful and will do his best to answer all your questions
directly.

--
Peter

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 4, 8:54 pm, "Peter R." > wrote:
> John, LiveATC is not my brainchild. David Pascoe is the owner, operator, and
> number one volunteer for that site. I am but one of many regional volunteers
> who feeds my local airport's frequencies to LiveATC via my scanner, computer,
> and always-on Internet connection.
>
> While Dave provides some of the Boston low and high frequencies via his own
> hardware, the majority of other feeds are sent to him by regional volunteers
> across the US and the world.

Dave also donated the scanners for the JFK feeds as well. The
connection is provided by a fan over by the airport. I helped him out
one day by going to the guy's house and taking the police frequencies
out of the scan. Talked to Dave for a little while and he's a pilot as
well who flies a Bonanza too so you guys will have much in common.

Marco

[Peter R.]

On 2/5/2007 5:36:57 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:

> Dave also donated the scanners for the JFK feeds as well. The
> connection is provided by a fan over by the airport. I helped him out
> one day by going to the guy's house and taking the police frequencies
> out of the scan.

Yes, now that you mention it I recall reading on his forum that he had a hand
in the JFK feeds. Good to see that you help out, too. Thanks for contributing
to a great web-based resource for aviation fans.

> Talked to Dave for a little while and he's a pilot as
> well who flies a Bonanza too so you guys will have much in common.

I saw that he was a pilot but didn't realize he also flew a Bonanza.

--
Peter

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 5, 6:25 pm, "Peter R." > wrote:
> On 2/5/2007 5:36:57 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:
>
> Yes, now that you mention it I recall reading on his forum that he had a hand
> in the JFK feeds. Good to see that you help out, too. Thanks for contributing
> to a great web-based resource for aviation fans.

I run the KFRG feed as well. Awesome site. I really got a kick out of
hearing my ATC exchange on a feed from way up in NH on the way home
from Bangor.

> I saw that he was a pilot but didn't realize he also flew a Bonanza.

I believe he's in the Boston area. I smell a LiveATC fly-in
brewing...once the temperatures rise of course.

Marco

[john smith]

In article om>,
"Marco Leon" > wrote:

> I run the KFRG feed as well. Awesome site. I really got a kick out of
> hearing my ATC exchange on a feed from way up in NH on the way home
> from Bangor.

Marco,
What are some good inexpensive scanners (brand and costs) for LiveATC
use?
What have you seen/read of people using to supply their links?

[James Robinson]

john smith > wrote:

> "Marco Leon" > wrote:
>
>> I run the KFRG feed as well. Awesome site. I really got a kick out of
>> hearing my ATC exchange on a feed from way up in NH on the way home
>> from Bangor.
>
> Marco,
> What are some good inexpensive scanners (brand and costs) for LiveATC
> use?

Radio Shack currently has a relatively good scanner, the Pro-84, on sale
for $50, after rebates. That is a real steal, since they were originally
sold for $200. The sale ends February 10:

http://tinyurl.com/2b2qeh

It is a rebranded Uniden BC92XLT and is marketed as a NASCAR scanner. What
that means is that the scanner has a NASCAR sticker on it, and is pre-
programmed with NASCAR team frequencies. The frequencies can be deleted or
overridden.

The scanner covers the aircraft band, along with other public service
bands, and can therefore be used as an air scanner.

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 6, 8:10 am, john smith > wrote:
> Marco,
> What are some good inexpensive scanners (brand and costs) for LiveATC
> use? What have you seen/read of people using to supply their links?

I can do better than that, here are some actual pictures of feeders'
setups: http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php/board,4.0.html

I use a Uniden BC278CLT that I got a local store for about $130. The
Sporty's base scanner looks like it will do as well. The JFK feeds
have a bank of Uniden BC350A's (also around $130) and a Radio Shack
model that escapes me at the moment. The main features that are needed
from a scanner are:

- a line out
- a programmable bank of freq's to scan
- a delay function (so people can reasonably follow an exchange)

Even the most basic scanners have these capabilities. What really
drives a good feed is the receiver's proximity to the transmitting
antenna. You can also setup a nice antenna on your roof if your
proximity-challenged. I have one but being .25 miles from the airport,
I don't really need it.

They provide the streaming software so with a cable/DSL/fiber
connection that's always on, you're good to go. It's really a low-
maintenance task to be a feeder.

Marco

[Peter R.]

On 2/5/2007 11:20:49 PM, "Marco Leon" wrote:

> I run the KFRG feed as well. Awesome site. I really got a kick out of
> hearing my ATC exchange on a feed from way up in NH on the way home
> from Bangor.

Yep, I started feeding my home airport's tower and approach frequencies (too
far to do ground and clearance) for the selfish reason that I wanted to
critique my radio skills. It worked.

--
Peter

[Marco Leon]

On Feb 6, 10:28 am, James Robinson > wrote:

> Radio Shack currently has a relatively good scanner, the Pro-84, on sale
> for $50, after rebates. That is a real steal, since they were originally
> sold for $200. The sale ends February 10:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2b2qeh
>
> It is a rebranded Uniden BC92XLT and is marketed as a NASCAR scanner. What
> that means is that the scanner has a NASCAR sticker on it, and is pre-
> programmed with NASCAR team frequencies. The frequencies can be deleted or
> overridden.
>
> The scanner covers the aircraft band, along with other public service
> bands, and can therefore be used as an air scanner.

Thanks for the heads-up James! I've been looking for a replacement to
the small Maycom I keep in my car that's on its last legs. I grabbed
the last one at my local Radio Shack. It's got a boatload of more
features than my Maycom at half the price. It even recharges NiMH/
NiCad batteries for you. Cool.

Marco