Under Entirely New Management, concluded - Turncoat-17E.jpg (1/1) [Archive]

CWO4 Dave Mann

November 12th 06, 04:46 PM

Peter Hucker wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann > wrote:
>
>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>
>> Interesting note for the Germans: The Nazi Hakenkreuz (Swastika) has
>> been crudely photoshopped out of this picture so that it will be "legal"
>> to have, display and send/receive in Germany.
>>
>> I am not belabouring the German people here, just making an observation.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dave
>
> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little childish.
>
>

I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
Reunification.

An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are
not allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but I
dis-remember the details.

I suppose we could look at it from several views:

1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world
already insane.

2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech -- which
is not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.

3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist Workers
Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack boots.

4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to convert
Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from
the history books.

5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a Ukase
issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near
Mount Ararat in a cave.

6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government censors
to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.

7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be "old
history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
demonstrating against something.

As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may
offend. Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures
which took place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the
manipulation of historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and
the fact that he was wheel-chair-bound ...

Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in a
national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming his
mobility impairment.

Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.

Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew
or non-Jew alike.

I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
slippery downhill slope.

That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30
years military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for it
was not in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I find
the maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon express
themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How about
"Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".

That should give you chills.

Meanwhile,

Cheers,

Dave

William R Thompson

November 12th 06, 07:35 PM

"CWO4 Dave Mann" wrote:

> Peter Hucker wrote:

>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little childish.

> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
> Reunification.

The banning of Nazi symbols started with the occupation of
Germany. It was fairly comprehensive, at least in the US
zone, sometimes to the point of seeming inane. Some works
of classical music were banned from public performances on
the grounds that they had been used by the Nazi regime
(Liszt's "Les Preludes" was one such work; among other
things, an excerpt from it was used to open radio news reports
on the war in Russia).

As the occupation settled into the Cold War, the government
of Bizonia/Trizonia/FRG maintained the ban on Nazi symbols.
There are multiple reasons for this, in no particular order of
their importance:

1: Don't **** off the Soviets; they're still in a bad mood.

2: It's a sop to the Western powers; a lot of former Nazis were
only technically denazified, and banning Nazi symbols made
it look like something was being done to keep them in check.

3: The FRG leadership had a realistic attitude toward the Nazis,
who had a habit of jailing, torturing and executing their opponents.
Why take a chance that the Green Devils, "Deutsche Revolution,"
Gotenbund or other splinter parties might turn into the next NDSAP?

4: If you can't talk about the Reich, then you can't talk about
its atrocities, which saves some people a lot of embarrassment.

The ban stayed in place long after the "economic miracle" and the
FRG's entry into NATO removed the two major issues that might
have fuelled a Nazi revival. My guess is that motive #4 would
have to receive considerable weight in any discussion of why
the ban remains in place.

--Bill Thompson

CWO4 Dave Mann

November 12th 06, 07:38 PM

William R Thompson wrote:
> "CWO4 Dave Mann" wrote:
>
>> Peter Hucker wrote:
>
>>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little childish.
>
>> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
>> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
>> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
>> Reunification.
>
> The banning of Nazi symbols started with the occupation of
> Germany. It was fairly comprehensive, at least in the US
> zone, sometimes to the point of seeming inane. Some works
> of classical music were banned from public performances on
> the grounds that they had been used by the Nazi regime
> (Liszt's "Les Preludes" was one such work; among other
> things, an excerpt from it was used to open radio news reports
> on the war in Russia).
>
> As the occupation settled into the Cold War, the government
> of Bizonia/Trizonia/FRG maintained the ban on Nazi symbols.
> There are multiple reasons for this, in no particular order of
> their importance:
>
> 1: Don't **** off the Soviets; they're still in a bad mood.
>
> 2: It's a sop to the Western powers; a lot of former Nazis were
> only technically denazified, and banning Nazi symbols made
> it look like something was being done to keep them in check.
>
> 3: The FRG leadership had a realistic attitude toward the Nazis,
> who had a habit of jailing, torturing and executing their opponents.
> Why take a chance that the Green Devils, "Deutsche Revolution,"
> Gotenbund or other splinter parties might turn into the next NDSAP?
>
> 4: If you can't talk about the Reich, then you can't talk about
> its atrocities, which saves some people a lot of embarrassment.
>
> The ban stayed in place long after the "economic miracle" and the
> FRG's entry into NATO removed the two major issues that might
> have fuelled a Nazi revival. My guess is that motive #4 would
> have to receive considerable weight in any discussion of why
> the ban remains in place.
>
> --Bill Thompson
>
>

Drat! I never thought about Option #4 -- and that is the most obvious
and probably of them all!

Cheers, Bill ..

Dave

Ken Gerlach

November 13th 06, 06:59 PM

Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that war and
know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those who
remember.

Dr G K Gerlach

"CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
. ..
> Peter Hucker wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting note for the Germans: The Nazi Hakenkreuz (Swastika) has
>>> been crudely photoshopped out of this picture so that it will be "legal"
>>> to have, display and send/receive in Germany.
>>>
>>> I am not belabouring the German people here, just making an observation.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little childish.
>>
>>
>
>
> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
> Reunification.
>
> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are not
> allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but I
> dis-remember the details.
>
> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
>
> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world already
> insane.
>
> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech -- which is
> not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
>
> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist Workers
> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
> boots.
>
> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to convert
> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from the
> history books.
>
> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a Ukase
> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near Mount
> Ararat in a cave.
>
> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government censors
> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
>
> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be "old
> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
> demonstrating against something.
>
> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may offend.
> Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures which took
> place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation of
> historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact that he
> was wheel-chair-bound ...
>
> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in a
> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming his
> mobility impairment.
>
> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
>
> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew or
> non-Jew alike.
>
> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
> slippery downhill slope.
>
> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30 years
> military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for it was not
> in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I find the
> maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon express
> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How about
> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
>
> That should give you chills.
>
> Meanwhile,
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>

CWO4 Dave Mann

November 13th 06, 07:24 PM

Do not be so sure of your answer Herr Doktor.

In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
horror and unlimited cruelty.

Of course the majority of German people are dead set against being
reminded of the Hitler years. As it should be with any nation which has
suffered from a dictatorship. The Holocaust was a terrible event which
continues to horrify me and the world. But, let the next generations
forget or minimize, and the possibility for occurrence becomes more
possible.

Look at the Islamo-Fascists as an example of resurgence in modern times.
The main actors are, in the main, a group of psychopaths who idealize
the Hitler Universe. It does not take much of a stretch to see them
goose-stepping and seig heil-ing just as the Arabs did during World War
Two when they were Axis Allies.

And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why
the totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.

Regards,

David ben-Mann
BA (Hons), MA, D.Phil.

Ken Gerlach wrote:
> Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that war and
> know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those who
> remember.
>
> Dr G K Gerlach
>
>
> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Peter Hucker wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Interesting note for the Germans: The Nazi Hakenkreuz (Swastika) has
>>>> been crudely photoshopped out of this picture so that it will be "legal"
>>>> to have, display and send/receive in Germany.
>>>>
>>>> I am not belabouring the German people here, just making an observation.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little childish.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
>> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
>> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
>> Reunification.
>>
>> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are not
>> allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but I
>> dis-remember the details.
>>
>> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
>>
>> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world already
>> insane.
>>
>> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech -- which is
>> not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
>>
>> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist Workers
>> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
>> boots.
>>
>> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to convert
>> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from the
>> history books.
>>
>> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a Ukase
>> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near Mount
>> Ararat in a cave.
>>
>> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government censors
>> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
>>
>> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
>> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be "old
>> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
>> demonstrating against something.
>>
>> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may offend.
>> Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures which took
>> place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation of
>> historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact that he
>> was wheel-chair-bound ...
>>
>> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
>> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in a
>> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
>> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming his
>> mobility impairment.
>>
>> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
>> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
>>
>> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
>> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
>> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
>> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
>> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
>> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
>> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew or
>> non-Jew alike.
>>
>> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
>> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
>> slippery downhill slope.
>>
>> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30 years
>> military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for it was not
>> in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I find the
>> maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon express
>> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How about
>> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
>>
>> That should give you chills.
>>
>> Meanwhile,
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
>

Grumpy AuContraire

November 13th 06, 08:03 PM

There's some saber rattling going these days that just might bring us to
the precipitous edge of oblivion. IIRC, WW I started over an
assassination of a royal figure of lesser stature...

JT

CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
>
> Do not be so sure of your answer Herr Doktor.
>
> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
> horror and unlimited cruelty.
>
> Of course the majority of German people are dead set against being
> reminded of the Hitler years. As it should be with any nation which has
> suffered from a dictatorship. The Holocaust was a terrible event which
> continues to horrify me and the world. But, let the next generations
> forget or minimize, and the possibility for occurrence becomes more
> possible.
>
> Look at the Islamo-Fascists as an example of resurgence in modern times.
> The main actors are, in the main, a group of psychopaths who idealize
> the Hitler Universe. It does not take much of a stretch to see them
> goose-stepping and seig heil-ing just as the Arabs did during World War
> Two when they were Axis Allies.
>
> And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why
> the totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
> otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
> goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
> seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.
>
> Regards,
>
> David ben-Mann
> BA (Hons), MA, D.Phil.
>
> Ken Gerlach wrote:
> > Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that war and
> > know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those who
> > remember.
> >
> > Dr G K Gerlach
> >
> >
> > "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> >> Peter Hucker wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting note for the Germans: The Nazi Hakenkreuz (Swastika) has
> >>>> been crudely photoshopped out of this picture so that it will be "legal"
> >>>> to have, display and send/receive in Germany.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am not belabouring the German people here, just making an observation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Dave
> >>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little childish.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
> >> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
> >> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
> >> Reunification.
> >>
> >> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are not
> >> allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but I
> >> dis-remember the details.
> >>
> >> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
> >>
> >> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world already
> >> insane.
> >>
> >> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech -- which is
> >> not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
> >>
> >> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist Workers
> >> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
> >> boots.
> >>
> >> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to convert
> >> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from the
> >> history books.
> >>
> >> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a Ukase
> >> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near Mount
> >> Ararat in a cave.
> >>
> >> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government censors
> >> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
> >>
> >> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
> >> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be "old
> >> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
> >> demonstrating against something.
> >>
> >> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may offend.
> >> Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures which took
> >> place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation of
> >> historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact that he
> >> was wheel-chair-bound ...
> >>
> >> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
> >> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in a
> >> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
> >> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming his
> >> mobility impairment.
> >>
> >> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
> >> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
> >>
> >> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
> >> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
> >> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
> >> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
> >> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
> >> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
> >> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew or
> >> non-Jew alike.
> >>
> >> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
> >> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
> >> slippery downhill slope.
> >>
> >> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30 years
> >> military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for it was not
> >> in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I find the
> >> maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon express
> >> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How about
> >> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
> >>
> >> That should give you chills.
> >>
> >> Meanwhile,
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >
> >

Peter Hucker

November 13th 06, 10:08 PM

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:46:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann > wrote:

> Peter Hucker wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann > wrote:
>>
>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting note for the Germans: The Nazi Hakenkreuz (Swastika) has
>>> been crudely photoshopped out of this picture so that it will be "legal"
>>> to have, display and send/receive in Germany.
>>>
>>> I am not belabouring the German people here, just making an observation.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little childish.
>>
>>
>
>
> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
> Reunification.
>
> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are
> not allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but I
> dis-remember the details.
>
> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
>
> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world
> already insane.
>
> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech -- which
> is not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
>
> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist Workers
> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack boots.
>
> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to convert
> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from
> the history books.
>
> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a Ukase
> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near
> Mount Ararat in a cave.
>
> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government censors
> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
>
> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be "old
> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
> demonstrating against something.
>
> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may
> offend. Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures
> which took place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the
> manipulation of historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and
> the fact that he was wheel-chair-bound ...
>
> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in a
> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming his
> mobility impairment.
>
> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
>
> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew
> or non-Jew alike.
>
> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
> slippery downhill slope.
>
> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30
> years military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for it
> was not in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I find
> the maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon express
> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How about
> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
>
> That should give you chills.
>
> Meanwhile,
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave

Agreed on all counts. Well put.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

Thought for the Day:
The Bible teaches us to love your neighbour, and the Kama Sutra explains how.

William R Thompson

November 14th 06, 04:02 AM

"CWO4 Dave Mann" wrote:

> And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why the
> totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
> otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
> goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
> seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.

The goose-step was considered to be a fine display of discipline,
martial menace and general shock-and-awe intimidation.

Of course it didn't impress everyone:

http://www.archive.org/details/1942-01-07_Gen_Adolph_Takes_Over

--Bill Thompson

Ken Gerlach

November 14th 06, 07:38 AM

I don't believe that I have misread your intent in your original message as
well as the current one. Perhaps the point that the swastika is anathema to
millions of Jewish people is not part of your consideration. In fact, there
is a definite anti-Semitic tone to much of the original. BTW, I am not
Jewish (German/English extract), but as I say, I lived though that horror
and as long as there are still those alive who went thought that war, the
crooked cross will be reviled.

Fondly, the ''Herr Doktor''

"CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
...
> Do not be so sure of your answer Herr Doktor.
>
> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
> horror and unlimited cruelty.
>
> Of course the majority of German people are dead set against being
> reminded of the Hitler years. As it should be with any nation which has
> suffered from a dictatorship. The Holocaust was a terrible event which
> continues to horrify me and the world. But, let the next generations
> forget or minimize, and the possibility for occurrence becomes more
> possible.
>
> Look at the Islamo-Fascists as an example of resurgence in modern times.
> The main actors are, in the main, a group of psychopaths who idealize the
> Hitler Universe. It does not take much of a stretch to see them
> goose-stepping and seig heil-ing just as the Arabs did during World War
> Two when they were Axis Allies.
>
> And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why the
> totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
> otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
> goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
> seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> David ben-Mann
> BA (Hons), MA, D.Phil.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ken Gerlach wrote:
>> Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that war
>> and know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those who
>> remember.
>>
>> Dr G K Gerlach
>>
>>
>> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> Peter Hucker wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting note for the Germans: The Nazi Hakenkreuz (Swastika) has
>>>>> been crudely photoshopped out of this picture so that it will be
>>>>> "legal"
>>>>> to have, display and send/receive in Germany.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not belabouring the German people here, just making an
>>>>> observation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little
>>>> childish.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
>>> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
>>> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
>>> Reunification.
>>>
>>> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are
>>> not allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but I
>>> dis-remember the details.
>>>
>>> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
>>>
>>> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world
>>> already insane.
>>>
>>> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech -- which
>>> is not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
>>>
>>> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist Workers
>>> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
>>> boots.
>>>
>>> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to convert
>>> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from
>>> the history books.
>>>
>>> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a Ukase
>>> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near
>>> Mount Ararat in a cave.
>>>
>>> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government censors
>>> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
>>>
>>> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
>>> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be "old
>>> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
>>> demonstrating against something.
>>>
>>> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may
>>> offend. Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures which
>>> took place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation
>>> of historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact
>>> that he was wheel-chair-bound ...
>>>
>>> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
>>> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in a
>>> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
>>> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming his
>>> mobility impairment.
>>>
>>> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
>>> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
>>>
>>> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
>>> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
>>> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
>>> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
>>> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
>>> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
>>> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew
>>> or non-Jew alike.
>>>
>>> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
>>> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
>>> slippery downhill slope.
>>>
>>> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30
>>> years military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for it
>>> was not in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I find
>>> the maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon express
>>> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How about
>>> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
>>>
>>> That should give you chills.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile,
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>

Peter Hucker

November 14th 06, 10:05 PM

No other minority takes things so seriously.

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:38:55 -0000, Ken Gerlach > wrote:

> I don't believe that I have misread your intent in your original message as
> well as the current one. Perhaps the point that the swastika is anathema to
> millions of Jewish people is not part of your consideration. In fact, there
> is a definite anti-Semitic tone to much of the original. BTW, I am not
> Jewish (German/English extract), but as I say, I lived though that horror
> and as long as there are still those alive who went thought that war, the
> crooked cross will be reviled.
>
> Fondly, the ''Herr Doktor''
>
>
> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Do not be so sure of your answer Herr Doktor.
>>
>> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
>> horror and unlimited cruelty.
>>
>> Of course the majority of German people are dead set against being
>> reminded of the Hitler years. As it should be with any nation which has
>> suffered from a dictatorship. The Holocaust was a terrible event which
>> continues to horrify me and the world. But, let the next generations
>> forget or minimize, and the possibility for occurrence becomes more
>> possible.
>>
>> Look at the Islamo-Fascists as an example of resurgence in modern times.
>> The main actors are, in the main, a group of psychopaths who idealize the
>> Hitler Universe. It does not take much of a stretch to see them
>> goose-stepping and seig heil-ing just as the Arabs did during World War
>> Two when they were Axis Allies.
>>
>> And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why the
>> totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
>> otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
>> goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
>> seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> David ben-Mann
>> BA (Hons), MA, D.Phil.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken Gerlach wrote:
>>> Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that war
>>> and know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those who
>>> remember.
>>>
>>> Dr G K Gerlach
>>>
>>>
>>> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>> Peter Hucker wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little
>>>>> childish.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
>>>> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
>>>> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
>>>> Reunification.
>>>>
>>>> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are
>>>> not allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but I
>>>> dis-remember the details.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
>>>>
>>>> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world
>>>> already insane.
>>>>
>>>> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech -- which
>>>> is not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
>>>>
>>>> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist Workers
>>>> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
>>>> boots.
>>>>
>>>> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to convert
>>>> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from
>>>> the history books.
>>>>
>>>> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a Ukase
>>>> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near
>>>> Mount Ararat in a cave.
>>>>
>>>> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government censors
>>>> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
>>>>
>>>> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
>>>> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be "old
>>>> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
>>>> demonstrating against something.
>>>>
>>>> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may
>>>> offend. Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures which
>>>> took place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation
>>>> of historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact
>>>> that he was wheel-chair-bound ...
>>>>
>>>> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
>>>> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in a
>>>> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
>>>> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming his
>>>> mobility impairment.
>>>>
>>>> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
>>>> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
>>>>
>>>> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
>>>> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
>>>> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
>>>> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
>>>> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
>>>> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
>>>> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew
>>>> or non-Jew alike.
>>>>
>>>> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
>>>> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
>>>> slippery downhill slope.
>>>>
>>>> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30
>>>> years military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for it
>>>> was not in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I find
>>>> the maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon express
>>>> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How about
>>>> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
>>>>
>>>> That should give you chills.
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile,
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>
>
>

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

Why is bra singular and panties plural?

Peter Hucker

November 14th 06, 10:05 PM

You're missing the point. Displaying it as a historical item is not showing hatred for anyone. It's not liking someone's shaking it in your face. The war was a long time ago, give it a rest.

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:59:26 -0000, Ken Gerlach > wrote:

> Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that war and
> know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those who
> remember.
>
> Dr G K Gerlach
>
>
> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Peter Hucker wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mitchell Holman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Interesting note for the Germans: The Nazi Hakenkreuz (Swastika) has
>>>> been crudely photoshopped out of this picture so that it will be "legal"
>>>> to have, display and send/receive in Germany.
>>>>
>>>> I am not belabouring the German people here, just making an observation.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>
>>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little childish.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated Nazi-era
>> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
>> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
>> Reunification.
>>
>> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are not
>> allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but I
>> dis-remember the details.
>>
>> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
>>
>> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world already
>> insane.
>>
>> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech -- which is
>> not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
>>
>> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist Workers
>> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
>> boots.
>>
>> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to convert
>> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from the
>> history books.
>>
>> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a Ukase
>> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near Mount
>> Ararat in a cave.
>>
>> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government censors
>> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
>>
>> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
>> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be "old
>> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
>> demonstrating against something.
>>
>> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may offend.
>> Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures which took
>> place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation of
>> historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact that he
>> was wheel-chair-bound ...
>>
>> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
>> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in a
>> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
>> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming his
>> mobility impairment.
>>
>> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
>> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
>>
>> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
>> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
>> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
>> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
>> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
>> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
>> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew or
>> non-Jew alike.
>>
>> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
>> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
>> slippery downhill slope.
>>
>> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30 years
>> military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for it was not
>> in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I find the
>> maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon express
>> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How about
>> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
>>
>> That should give you chills.
>>
>> Meanwhile,
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
>
>

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

Reading while sunbathing makes you well red.

Ken Gerlach

November 15th 06, 06:39 AM

Indeeed, no other minority has suffered the murder of millions of its
members! gkg

"Peter Hucker" > wrote in message
...
> No other minority takes things so seriously.
>
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:38:55 -0000, Ken Gerlach > wrote:
>
>> I don't believe that I have misread your intent in your original message
>> as
>> well as the current one. Perhaps the point that the swastika is anathema
>> to
>> millions of Jewish people is not part of your consideration. In fact,
>> there
>> is a definite anti-Semitic tone to much of the original. BTW, I am not
>> Jewish (German/English extract), but as I say, I lived though that horror
>> and as long as there are still those alive who went thought that war,
>> the
>> crooked cross will be reviled.
>>
>> Fondly, the ''Herr Doktor''
>>
>>
>> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Do not be so sure of your answer Herr Doktor.
>>>
>>> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
>>> horror and unlimited cruelty.
>>>
>>> Of course the majority of German people are dead set against being
>>> reminded of the Hitler years. As it should be with any nation which has
>>> suffered from a dictatorship. The Holocaust was a terrible event which
>>> continues to horrify me and the world. But, let the next generations
>>> forget or minimize, and the possibility for occurrence becomes more
>>> possible.
>>>
>>> Look at the Islamo-Fascists as an example of resurgence in modern times.
>>> The main actors are, in the main, a group of psychopaths who idealize
>>> the
>>> Hitler Universe. It does not take much of a stretch to see them
>>> goose-stepping and seig heil-ing just as the Arabs did during World War
>>> Two when they were Axis Allies.
>>>
>>> And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why
>>> the
>>> totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
>>> otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
>>> goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
>>> seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> David ben-Mann
>>> BA (Hons), MA, D.Phil.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ken Gerlach wrote:
>>>> Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that
>>>> war
>>>> and know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those
>>>> who
>>>> remember.
>>>>
>>>> Dr G K Gerlach
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
>>>> . ..
>>>>> Peter Hucker wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little
>>>>>> childish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated
>>>>> Nazi-era
>>>>> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
>>>>> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
>>>>> Reunification.
>>>>>
>>>>> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are
>>>>> not allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but
>>>>> I
>>>>> dis-remember the details.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world
>>>>> already insane.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech --
>>>>> which
>>>>> is not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist
>>>>> Workers
>>>>> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
>>>>> boots.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to
>>>>> convert
>>>>> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from
>>>>> the history books.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a
>>>>> Ukase
>>>>> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near
>>>>> Mount Ararat in a cave.
>>>>>
>>>>> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government
>>>>> censors
>>>>> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
>>>>>
>>>>> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
>>>>> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be
>>>>> "old
>>>>> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
>>>>> demonstrating against something.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may
>>>>> offend. Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures
>>>>> which
>>>>> took place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation
>>>>> of historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact
>>>>> that he was wheel-chair-bound ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
>>>>> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in
>>>>> a
>>>>> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
>>>>> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming
>>>>> his
>>>>> mobility impairment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
>>>>> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
>>>>>
>>>>> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
>>>>> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
>>>>> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
>>>>> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
>>>>> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
>>>>> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
>>>>> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew
>>>>> or non-Jew alike.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
>>>>> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
>>>>> slippery downhill slope.
>>>>>
>>>>> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30
>>>>> years military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for
>>>>> it
>>>>> was not in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I
>>>>> find
>>>>> the maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon
>>>>> express
>>>>> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How
>>>>> about
>>>>> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
>>>>>
>>>>> That should give you chills.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile,
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com
> http://www.petersphotos.com
>
> Why is bra singular and panties plural?

Bob Harrington

November 15th 06, 08:53 AM

"Peter Hucker" > wrote in
:

> No other minority takes things so seriously.

Genocide will do that...

Grumpy AuContraire

November 15th 06, 04:50 PM

On the same scale, yes.

But, there's plenty of examples of the same murderous activity taking
place daily in Africa and many closed countries in this world.

Fact is that it will never go away. It is just one of the more gritty
ingredients of humanity...

JT

Ken Gerlach wrote:
>
> Indeeed, no other minority has suffered the murder of millions of its
> members! gkg
>
> "Peter Hucker" > wrote in message
> ...
> > No other minority takes things so seriously.
> >
> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:38:55 -0000, Ken Gerlach > wrote:
> >
> >> I don't believe that I have misread your intent in your original message
> >> as
> >> well as the current one. Perhaps the point that the swastika is anathema
> >> to
> >> millions of Jewish people is not part of your consideration. In fact,
> >> there
> >> is a definite anti-Semitic tone to much of the original. BTW, I am not
> >> Jewish (German/English extract), but as I say, I lived though that horror
> >> and as long as there are still those alive who went thought that war,
> >> the
> >> crooked cross will be reviled.
> >>
> >> Fondly, the ''Herr Doktor''
> >>
> >>
> >> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> Do not be so sure of your answer Herr Doktor.
> >>>
> >>> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
> >>> horror and unlimited cruelty.
> >>>
> >>> Of course the majority of German people are dead set against being
> >>> reminded of the Hitler years. As it should be with any nation which has
> >>> suffered from a dictatorship. The Holocaust was a terrible event which
> >>> continues to horrify me and the world. But, let the next generations
> >>> forget or minimize, and the possibility for occurrence becomes more
> >>> possible.
> >>>
> >>> Look at the Islamo-Fascists as an example of resurgence in modern times.
> >>> The main actors are, in the main, a group of psychopaths who idealize
> >>> the
> >>> Hitler Universe. It does not take much of a stretch to see them
> >>> goose-stepping and seig heil-ing just as the Arabs did during World War
> >>> Two when they were Axis Allies.
> >>>
> >>> And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why
> >>> the
> >>> totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
> >>> otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
> >>> goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
> >>> seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> David ben-Mann
> >>> BA (Hons), MA, D.Phil.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ken Gerlach wrote:
> >>>> Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that
> >>>> war
> >>>> and know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those
> >>>> who
> >>>> remember.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dr G K Gerlach
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
> >>>> . ..
> >>>>> Peter Hucker wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
> >>>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little
> >>>>>> childish.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated
> >>>>> Nazi-era
> >>>>> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
> >>>>> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
> >>>>> Reunification.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are
> >>>>> not allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> dis-remember the details.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world
> >>>>> already insane.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech --
> >>>>> which
> >>>>> is not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist
> >>>>> Workers
> >>>>> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
> >>>>> boots.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to
> >>>>> convert
> >>>>> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from
> >>>>> the history books.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a
> >>>>> Ukase
> >>>>> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near
> >>>>> Mount Ararat in a cave.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government
> >>>>> censors
> >>>>> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
> >>>>> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be
> >>>>> "old
> >>>>> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
> >>>>> demonstrating against something.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may
> >>>>> offend. Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures
> >>>>> which
> >>>>> took place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation
> >>>>> of historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact
> >>>>> that he was wheel-chair-bound ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
> >>>>> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
> >>>>> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming
> >>>>> his
> >>>>> mobility impairment.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
> >>>>> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
> >>>>> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
> >>>>> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
> >>>>> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
> >>>>> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
> >>>>> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
> >>>>> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew
> >>>>> or non-Jew alike.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
> >>>>> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
> >>>>> slippery downhill slope.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30
> >>>>> years military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for
> >>>>> it
> >>>>> was not in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I
> >>>>> find
> >>>>> the maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon
> >>>>> express
> >>>>> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How
> >>>>> about
> >>>>> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That should give you chills.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Meanwhile,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dave
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com
> > http://www.petersphotos.com
> >
> > Why is bra singular and panties plural?

Peter Hucker

November 15th 06, 08:17 PM

This is still happening is it?

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:39:32 -0000, Ken Gerlach > wrote:

> Indeeed, no other minority has suffered the murder of millions of its
> members! gkg
>
> "Peter Hucker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> No other minority takes things so seriously.
>>
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:38:55 -0000, Ken Gerlach > wrote:
>>
>>> I don't believe that I have misread your intent in your original message
>>> as
>>> well as the current one. Perhaps the point that the swastika is anathema
>>> to
>>> millions of Jewish people is not part of your consideration. In fact,
>>> there
>>> is a definite anti-Semitic tone to much of the original. BTW, I am not
>>> Jewish (German/English extract), but as I say, I lived though that horror
>>> and as long as there are still those alive who went thought that war,
>>> the
>>> crooked cross will be reviled.
>>>
>>> Fondly, the ''Herr Doktor''
>>>
>>>
>>> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Do not be so sure of your answer Herr Doktor.
>>>>
>>>> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
>>>> horror and unlimited cruelty.
>>>>
>>>> Of course the majority of German people are dead set against being
>>>> reminded of the Hitler years. As it should be with any nation which has
>>>> suffered from a dictatorship. The Holocaust was a terrible event which
>>>> continues to horrify me and the world. But, let the next generations
>>>> forget or minimize, and the possibility for occurrence becomes more
>>>> possible.
>>>>
>>>> Look at the Islamo-Fascists as an example of resurgence in modern times.
>>>> The main actors are, in the main, a group of psychopaths who idealize
>>>> the
>>>> Hitler Universe. It does not take much of a stretch to see them
>>>> goose-stepping and seig heil-ing just as the Arabs did during World War
>>>> Two when they were Axis Allies.
>>>>
>>>> And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why
>>>> the
>>>> totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
>>>> otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
>>>> goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
>>>> seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> David ben-Mann
>>>> BA (Hons), MA, D.Phil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken Gerlach wrote:
>>>>> Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that
>>>>> war
>>>>> and know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those
>>>>> who
>>>>> remember.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr G K Gerlach
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
>>>>> . ..
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com
>> http://www.petersphotos.com
>>
>> Why is bra singular and panties plural?
>
>
>

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

WinError: Unable to exit Windows. Try the door.

Peter Hucker

November 15th 06, 08:19 PM

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:53:27 -0000, Bob Harrington > wrote:

> "Peter Hucker" > wrote in
> :
>
>> No other minority takes things so seriously.
>
> Genocide will do that...

"You wouldn't let it lie" - Vic Reeves

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

A woman sends her clothing out to the Chinese laundry. When it comes back there are still stains in her panties. The next week she encloses a note to the Chinaman that says, "Use more soap on panties."
This goes on for several weeks, the woman sending the same note to the laundry.
Finally fed up the Chinaman responded with his own note that said, "Use more paper on ass."

Peter Hucker

November 15th 06, 09:27 PM

Humans are not the only animals that do it - watch some David Attenburgh.

On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:50:05 -0000, Grumpy AuContraire > wrote:

> On the same scale, yes.
>
> But, there's plenty of examples of the same murderous activity taking
> place daily in Africa and many closed countries in this world.
>
> Fact is that it will never go away. It is just one of the more gritty
> ingredients of humanity...
>
> JT
>
>
>
>
> Ken Gerlach wrote:
>>
>> Indeeed, no other minority has suffered the murder of millions of its
>> members! gkg
>>
>> "Peter Hucker" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > No other minority takes things so seriously.
>> >
>> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:38:55 -0000, Ken Gerlach > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I don't believe that I have misread your intent in your original message
>> >> as
>> >> well as the current one. Perhaps the point that the swastika is anathema
>> >> to
>> >> millions of Jewish people is not part of your consideration. In fact,
>> >> there
>> >> is a definite anti-Semitic tone to much of the original. BTW, I am not
>> >> Jewish (German/English extract), but as I say, I lived though that horror
>> >> and as long as there are still those alive who went thought that war,
>> >> the
>> >> crooked cross will be reviled.
>> >>
>> >> Fondly, the ''Herr Doktor''
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>> Do not be so sure of your answer Herr Doktor.
>> >>>
>> >>> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
>> >>> horror and unlimited cruelty.
>> >>>
>> >>> Of course the majority of German people are dead set against being
>> >>> reminded of the Hitler years. As it should be with any nation which has
>> >>> suffered from a dictatorship. The Holocaust was a terrible event which
>> >>> continues to horrify me and the world. But, let the next generations
>> >>> forget or minimize, and the possibility for occurrence becomes more
>> >>> possible.
>> >>>
>> >>> Look at the Islamo-Fascists as an example of resurgence in modern times.
>> >>> The main actors are, in the main, a group of psychopaths who idealize
>> >>> the
>> >>> Hitler Universe. It does not take much of a stretch to see them
>> >>> goose-stepping and seig heil-ing just as the Arabs did during World War
>> >>> Two when they were Axis Allies.
>> >>>
>> >>> And speaking of Goose-stepping ... have you ever wondered exactly why
>> >>> the
>> >>> totalitarian armies, the far left or right dictator armies, and the
>> >>> otherwise nasty thug armies ALL seem to march in parades with the
>> >>> goose-step? I mean, Hitler didn't invent that style of marching, but it
>> >>> seems to be de'rigeur amongst the heavy-handed.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> David ben-Mann
>> >>> BA (Hons), MA, D.Phil.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Ken Gerlach wrote:
>> >>>> Clearly Dave is neither a Jew or an historian. I lived through that
>> >>>> war
>> >>>> and know why display of the Hakenkreuz is still frowned upon by those
>> >>>> who
>> >>>> remember.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dr G K Gerlach
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "CWO4 Dave Mann" > wrote in message
>> >>>> . ..
>> >>>>> Peter Hucker wrote:
>> >>>>>> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:39:13 -0000, CWO4 Dave Mann
>> >>>>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> You can't send/receive a swastika in Germany? That's a little
>> >>>>>> childish.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I seem to recall that it is due to a law which first regulated
>> >>>>> Nazi-era
>> >>>>> souvenirs. But, there was concern by the Germans about the burgeoning
>> >>>>> neo-Nazi groups which flourished in the old East Germany after the
>> >>>>> Reunification.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> An example is eBay.de -- the German eBay system. Nazi-"anything" are
>> >>>>> not allowed on that system. There was a lawsuit a few years back, but
>> >>>>> I
>> >>>>> dis-remember the details.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I suppose we could look at it from several views:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 1. It is the result of Political Correctness gone mad in a world
>> >>>>> already insane.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2. It is a cloying Government technique to stifle free speech --
>> >>>>> which
>> >>>>> is not guaranteed by the German constitution anyway.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 3. It is a reaction to the rebirth of the Nationalist Socialist
>> >>>>> Workers
>> >>>>> Movement (Nazi Party) in modern day uniforms but in 1930's style jack
>> >>>>> boots.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 4. It is a sop to the leftists of Germany whose goal may be to
>> >>>>> convert
>> >>>>> Germany to a Socialist state and want to remove the Hitler times from
>> >>>>> the history books.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 5. It is due to pressure from the Jewish Rulers of the World -- a
>> >>>>> Ukase
>> >>>>> issued from the secret Fortress of International Jewry located near
>> >>>>> Mount Ararat in a cave.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 6. It is a legitimate but ill-thought-out attempt by government
>> >>>>> censors
>> >>>>> to limit exposure of modern day Germans to Nazi idealization.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 7. Erasing the Swastika from historical images is required by law ..
>> >>>>> eventually there will be no-one alive who remembers and it will be
>> >>>>> "old
>> >>>>> history" anyway that nobody studies because they are too busy
>> >>>>> demonstrating against something.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> As a historian, I think it is unwise to elimiate images which may
>> >>>>> offend. Look at the re-creation of history and historical pictures
>> >>>>> which
>> >>>>> took place under the regimes of Stalin and Hitler and the manipulation
>> >>>>> of historically important facts such as FDR's paralysis and the fact
>> >>>>> that he was wheel-chair-bound ...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Would you believe that it is only in the 1990's that a statue of FDR
>> >>>>> showing him in his wheel chair was "allowed" to be made and placed in
>> >>>>> a
>> >>>>> national historical park? Something like that denies the existance of
>> >>>>> Polio and more importantly the fortitude of Roosevelt in overcoming
>> >>>>> his
>> >>>>> mobility impairment.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Removing the swastika and make the Seig arm salute illegal in Germany
>> >>>>> simply removed one more link to an already distorted view of history.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Travel to any German city today and try to find the local Synagogue.
>> >>>>> Naturally there are none, but you will find only a small brass plaque
>> >>>>> which has some simplistic words such as "here was the location of the
>> >>>>> Jewish Congregation of Beth-Israel which existed from 1525 to 1938 and
>> >>>>> which was destroyed by the Nazi government in World War Two." That
>> >>>>> statement leaves a whole bunch of history out, to be sure. Somewhere
>> >>>>> along the line "Never Again" becomes lost to the casual on-looker, Jew
>> >>>>> or non-Jew alike.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I've meandered along here, but the bottom line is that once freedom of
>> >>>>> speech and expression becomes constricted or restricted, it is a very
>> >>>>> slippery downhill slope.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> That slippery slope conundrum is one reason that I, a veteran of 30
>> >>>>> years military service, two wars and with a purple heart to show for
>> >>>>> it
>> >>>>> was not in favor of the flag burning amendment. As obnoxious as I
>> >>>>> find
>> >>>>> the maltreatment of Old Glory, once the law says a person cannon
>> >>>>> express
>> >>>>> themselves by defacing Her, then what will the next step be? How
>> >>>>> about
>> >>>>> "Speaking Out Against the Policies of the Government".
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> That should give you chills.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Meanwhile,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Dave
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com
>> > http://www.petersphotos.com
>> >
>> > Why is bra singular and panties plural?
>

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

"A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit."
- Army preventive maintenance publication

The Visitor

November 15th 06, 10:20 PM

CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:

> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
> horror and unlimited cruelty.

From witch it will never recover.

it does have a fascinating 300 year history.

John

redc1c4

November 16th 06, 04:49 AM

Peter Hucker wrote:

(mercy snipage occurs)

> Why is bra singular and panties plural?

tit's a mystery!

redc1c4,
(trying to keep abreast with this thread.... %-)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide

No Name

November 16th 06, 10:49 AM

I have seen pictures of "that item" used as a native American decoration. It
was used long before and far away from "national socialism" in Germany.

"The Visitor" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
>
>
> > In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
> > horror and unlimited cruelty.
>
> From witch it will never recover.
>
> it does have a fascinating 300 year history.
>
> John
>

Claus Gustafsen

November 16th 06, 04:25 PM

It was used in many places at different times, The Roman Leigions, on RAF
planes in the Middle East between the two worldwars. One difference is the
way it's turning as that differs, but it's supposed to be a stulished
"Sunwheel"

--

Claus Gustafsen
Strandby Denmark
mail me at
See my modeling at www.gustafsen.nu

> skrev i en meddelelse
nk.net...
>I have seen pictures of "that item" used as a native American decoration.
>It
> was used long before and far away from "national socialism" in Germany.
>
> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
>>
>>
>> > In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
>> > horror and unlimited cruelty.
>>
>> From witch it will never recover.
>>
>> it does have a fascinating 300 year history.
>>
>> John
>>
>
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere.
Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at få 2452 spam-mails
Betalende brugere får ikke denne besked i deres e-mails.
Hent en gratis SPAMfighter her.

Grumpy AuContraire

November 16th 06, 04:53 PM

The Visitor wrote:
>
> CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
>
> > In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
> > horror and unlimited cruelty.
>
> From witch it will never recover.
>
> it does have a fascinating 300 year history.
>
> John

You can make that 3,000 years and perhaps before.

Examples can be found in many Asian cultures as well and even in
pre-colonized North America.

JT

Grumpy AuContraire

November 16th 06, 04:57 PM

Try this link for a long history...

http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml

JT

wrote:
>
> I have seen pictures of "that item" used as a native American decoration. It
> was used long before and far away from "national socialism" in Germany.
>
> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
> >
> >
> > > In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
> > > horror and unlimited cruelty.
> >
> > From witch it will never recover.
> >
> > it does have a fascinating 300 year history.
> >
> > John
> >

CWO4 Dave Mann

November 16th 06, 05:53 PM

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> The Visitor wrote:
>> CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
>>
>>> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
>>> horror and unlimited cruelty.
>> From witch it will never recover.
>>
>> it does have a fascinating 300 year history.
>>
>> John
>
>
>
> You can make that 3,000 years and perhaps before.
>
> Examples can be found in many Asian cultures as well and even in
> pre-colonized North America.
>
> JT

I left off a zero ... so hah ha ha!

Not really, of course ... you are a fountain of information .. a
veritable Cornucopia ...

Personally I would like a cornucopia of chili dogs and raw onions.

Cheers, Bro',

Dave

Grumpy AuContraire

November 16th 06, 07:50 PM

CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > The Visitor wrote:
> >> CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
> >>
> >>> In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred, intolerance,
> >>> horror and unlimited cruelty.
> >> From witch it will never recover.
> >>
> >> it does have a fascinating 300 year history.
> >>
> >> John
> >
> >
> >
> > You can make that 3,000 years and perhaps before.
> >
> > Examples can be found in many Asian cultures as well and even in
> > pre-colonized North America.
> >
> > JT
>
> I left off a zero ... so hah ha ha!
>
> Not really, of course ... you are a fountain of information .. a
> veritable Cornucopia ...
>
> Personally I would like a cornucopia of chili dogs and raw onions.
>
> Cheers, Bro',
>
> Dave

Most of my contemporaries call kornocrapia!

<G>

JT

The Visitor

November 16th 06, 08:22 PM

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:

> You can make that 3,000 years and perhaps before.
>
Oppps, I slipped and missed a zero. My bad.

John

The Visitor

November 16th 06, 08:23 PM

Which witch!

I just saw my spelling too. Ugh!!

Bob Harrington

November 17th 06, 08:15 AM

> wrote in
nk.net:

> I have seen pictures of "that item" used as a native American
> decoration. It was used long before and far away from "national
> socialism" in Germany.

In blue on white, it was also the national marking worn by the air force
of Finland before and during WW2.

>
> "The Visitor" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> CWO4 Dave Mann wrote:
>>
>>
>> > In short form, the Twisted Cross is a symbol of hatred,
>> > intolerance, horror and unlimited cruelty.
>>
>> From witch it will never recover.
>>
>> it does have a fascinating 300 year history.
>>
>> John
>>
>
>
>

[email protected]

November 19th 06, 09:55 PM

Even in the Netherlands in the mid 50's, any plastic model-kit of German
aircraft had decals with the swatika missing.
At the time it was explained to me that the symbol might be "offensive" to
some people. Go figure..

Ron

November 19th 06, 11:15 PM

> wrote in message
...
> Even in the Netherlands in the mid 50's, any plastic model-kit of German
> aircraft had decals with the swatika missing.
> At the time it was explained to me that the symbol might be "offensive" to
> some people. Go figure..

The swastika was missing all the way through the '80s. I don't recall
exactly when the ban was lifted, but only now they are slowly appearing here
and there.
You may not realise where the offense came from. It came from two distinct
events: the large percentage of Dutch jews that never returned from nazi
hospitality (outranked only by the Polish percentage), and the fact that a
very large portion of the country was starved by the german occupation after
the Dutch initiated a railroad strike after "market-Garden" (the notorious
failure of the Arnhem air-assault). The nazis stepped up their
terror-campaign, holding more razzias, and killing 100 resistance members
and deporting all men from the town of Putten to slave labour camps (the
town itself was set ablaze) in revenge for the attempted assasination of the
head of the SD. In addition to this, the coalmines were now on the "wrong"
side of the frontline, so not only food was missing, but heating as well. As
any service-member who served in the Ardennes can tell you, 1944-1945 was
the coldest winter in a very long time. In spite of food-help from Sweden
and Switzerland/IRC (which saved thousands of lives), the situation became
so bad that US and RAF bombercrews were flying to the western provinces with
food instead of bombs during the final days of the war (operations
"Manna"(RAF) and Chowhound (USAF).
Read about that on http://users.interstroom.nl/~heijink/ and you will
understand why the swastika is (to this day) considered to be offensive.

Ron
--
Non urinat in ventum

Mechanical Menace

November 21st 06, 11:30 AM

"Ron" > wrote in
:

>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> Even in the Netherlands in the mid 50's, any plastic model-kit of
>> German aircraft had decals with the swatika missing.
>> At the time it was explained to me that the symbol might be
>> "offensive" to some people. Go figure..
>
> The swastika was missing all the way through the '80s. I don't recall
> exactly when the ban was lifted, but only now they are slowly
> appearing here and there.
> You may not realise where the offense came from. It came from two
> distinct events: the large percentage of Dutch jews that never
> returned from nazi hospitality (outranked only by the Polish
> percentage), and the fact that a very large portion of the country was
> starved by the german occupation after the Dutch initiated a railroad
> strike after "market-Garden" (the notorious failure of the Arnhem
> air-assault). The nazis stepped up their terror-campaign, holding more
> razzias, and killing 100 resistance members and deporting all men from
> the town of Putten to slave labour camps (the town itself was set
> ablaze) in revenge for the attempted assasination of the head of the
> SD. In addition to this, the coalmines were now on the "wrong" side of
> the frontline, so not only food was missing, but heating as well. As
> any service-member who served in the Ardennes can tell you, 1944-1945
> was the coldest winter in a very long time. In spite of food-help from
> Sweden and Switzerland/IRC (which saved thousands of lives), the
> situation became so bad that US and RAF bombercrews were flying to the
> western provinces with food instead of bombs during the final days of
> the war (operations "Manna"(RAF) and Chowhound (USAF).
> Read about that on http://users.interstroom.nl/~heijink/ and you will
> understand why the swastika is (to this day) considered to be
> offensive.
>
> Ron

It is also to notice that the swastika was not a "Hochheitszeichen" It
was not the cockarde for Germany (that was the Balkenkreuz) but it was a
sign from the nazi-party and what it stood for.

Having said that, I will not spend 3 weeks detailing a 1/48th scale
messereschmitt cockpit for historical and technical accuracy and then
omit the swastika on the tail fin.
And I also build russian fighters with their red stars. Eventhough what
Stalin did under that star (to millions of his own people) during and
after the war.
Same goes for the Japanese meatball.

my 2 ct.

Cheers,

Dennis Loep

CWO4 Dave Mann

November 21st 06, 01:59 PM

Mechanical Menace wrote:
> "Ron" > wrote in
> :
>
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Even in the Netherlands in the mid 50's, any plastic model-kit of
>>> German aircraft had decals with the swatika missing.
>>> At the time it was explained to me that the symbol might be
>>> "offensive" to some people. Go figure..
>> The swastika was missing all the way through the '80s. I don't recall
>> exactly when the ban was lifted, but only now they are slowly
>> appearing here and there.
>> You may not realise where the offense came from. It came from two
>> distinct events: the large percentage of Dutch jews that never
>> returned from nazi hospitality (outranked only by the Polish
>> percentage), and the fact that a very large portion of the country was
>> starved by the german occupation after the Dutch initiated a railroad
>> strike after "market-Garden" (the notorious failure of the Arnhem
>> air-assault). The nazis stepped up their terror-campaign, holding more
>> razzias, and killing 100 resistance members and deporting all men from
>> the town of Putten to slave labour camps (the town itself was set
>> ablaze) in revenge for the attempted assasination of the head of the
>> SD. In addition to this, the coalmines were now on the "wrong" side of
>> the frontline, so not only food was missing, but heating as well. As
>> any service-member who served in the Ardennes can tell you, 1944-1945
>> was the coldest winter in a very long time. In spite of food-help from
>> Sweden and Switzerland/IRC (which saved thousands of lives), the
>> situation became so bad that US and RAF bombercrews were flying to the
>> western provinces with food instead of bombs during the final days of
>> the war (operations "Manna"(RAF) and Chowhound (USAF).
>> Read about that on http://users.interstroom.nl/~heijink/ and you will
>> understand why the swastika is (to this day) considered to be
>> offensive.
>>
>> Ron
>
> It is also to notice that the swastika was not a "Hochheitszeichen" It
> was not the cockarde for Germany (that was the Balkenkreuz) but it was a
> sign from the nazi-party and what it stood for.
>
> Having said that, I will not spend 3 weeks detailing a 1/48th scale
> messereschmitt cockpit for historical and technical accuracy and then
> omit the swastika on the tail fin.
> And I also build russian fighters with their red stars. Eventhough what
> Stalin did under that star (to millions of his own people) during and
> after the war.
> Same goes for the Japanese meatball.
>
> my 2 ct.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dennis Loep

Dennis and Ron, your replies are spot on target. Dennis, "when men
choose ignorance of history, they shall remain ignorant even unto their
graves".

Cheers,

Dave the Historian

"Study History - Know the Future"