I Wanna Build an Aeroplane

[Badwater Bill]

Yep. My wife and I decided that we want to build us an aeroplane.
What we want is something that has 6 seats for the kids. It has to go
250 miles in an hour and only burn 6 gallons an hour. It has to be
cool looking, have wheels that fold up, go through clouds and bad
weather and be capbable of being towed behind my truck like a trailer.
Oh, and it needs to be aerobatic too with an inverted engine pump and
all. I'd like one of them fancy Garmin doo-whichey navigation systems
in it too.

Does anyone know what airplane I need to build? I read Kitplanes and
they got lots of airplanes in there with claims like that. There's so
much to pick from, I'm confused. Can anyone here help me?

P.S. I like fiberglass work too, I built a peddle bike for my kid once
out of fiberglass, so I'm an expert at fiberglass. I don't want no
metal aeroplane. I need glass....yeah man! Ohh baby...that's slick.

BWB, Ph.D.

[BD5ER]

>P.S. I like fiberglass work too

I had just the guy in mind to design it for you, could even be built over the
average Christmass vacation...........


But I don't think he likes glass.

[Badwater Bill]

On 01 Aug 2003 04:09:19 GMT, (BD5ER) wrote:

>>P.S. I like fiberglass work too
>
>I had just the guy in mind to design it for you, could even be built over the
>average Christmass vacation...........
>
>
>But I don't think he likes glass.


Holman?

BWB

[Morgans]

"Badwater Bill" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yep. My wife and I decided that we want to build us an aeroplane.
> What we want is something that has 6 seats for the kids. It has to go
> 250 miles in an hour and only burn 6 gallons an hour. It has to be
> cool looking, have wheels that fold up, go through clouds and bad
> weather and be capbable of being towed behind my truck like a trailer.
> Oh, and it needs to be aerobatic too with an inverted engine pump and
> all. I'd like one of them fancy Garmin doo-whichey navigation systems
> in it too.
>
> Does anyone know what airplane I need to build? I read Kitplanes and
> they got lots of airplanes in there with claims like that. There's so
> much to pick from, I'm confused. Can anyone here help me?
>
> P.S. I like fiberglass work too, I built a peddle bike for my kid once
> out of fiberglass, so I'm an expert at fiberglass. I don't want no
> metal aeroplane. I need glass....yeah man! Ohh baby...that's slick.
>
> BWB, Ph.D.

Just hang on a little while longer, Bill. The Skycar is supposed to be
flying anytime, and will meet every one of your needs.
--
Jim in NC

[RDA]

No doubt your hero Zoomster, Ph.D. has all the info on just what you need.
Not sure about that? Hey, just ask him!


"Badwater Bill" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yep. My wife and I decided that we want to build us an aeroplane.
> What we want is something that has 6 seats for the kids. It has to go
> 250 miles in an hour and only burn 6 gallons an hour. It has to be
> cool looking, have wheels that fold up, go through clouds and bad
> weather and be capbable of being towed behind my truck like a trailer.
> Oh, and it needs to be aerobatic too with an inverted engine pump and
> all. I'd like one of them fancy Garmin doo-whichey navigation systems
> in it too.
>
> Does anyone know what airplane I need to build? I read Kitplanes and
> they got lots of airplanes in there with claims like that. There's so
> much to pick from, I'm confused. Can anyone here help me?
>
> P.S. I like fiberglass work too, I built a peddle bike for my kid once
> out of fiberglass, so I'm an expert at fiberglass. I don't want no
> metal aeroplane. I need glass....yeah man! Ohh baby...that's slick.
>
> BWB, Ph.D.

[Jim Vadek]

"Badwater Bill" > wrote in message
...

> What we want is something that has 6 seats for the kids. It has to go
> 250 miles in an hour and only burn 6 gallons an hour. It has to be

250 mph at 6 gph. You need and airplane where the wings can be detached in
flight.

[B2431]

>No doubt your hero Zoomster, Ph.D. has all the info on just what you need.
>Not sure about that? Hey, just ask him!

PhD = piled higher and deeper?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Badwater Bill]

On 02 Aug 2003 07:19:28 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>>No doubt your hero Zoomster, Ph.D. has all the info on just what you need.
>>Not sure about that? Hey, just ask him!
>
>PhD = piled higher and deeper?
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Ah...duh... U.S. Air Farce Retarded is more like it chump.

BWB Ph.D. ATP, CFI, CFII, B.S., M.S. M.S. M.S. SEL, MEL, SESea,
MESea, Balloon, Glider, Helicopter, Hang Glider, Parachute, Jack Off

[Corrie]

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message >...
> On 02 Aug 2003 07:19:28 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>
> >>No doubt your hero Zoomster, Ph.D. has all the info on just what you need.
> >>Not sure about that? Hey, just ask him!
> >
> >PhD = piled higher and deeper?
> >
> >Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
> Ah...duh... U.S. Air Farce Retarded is more like it chump.
>
> BWB Ph.D. ATP, CFI, CFII, B.S., M.S. M.S. M.S. SEL, MEL, SESea,
> MESea, Balloon, Glider, Helicopter, Hang Glider, Parachute, Jack Off


In a lot of college towns, Ph.D. often means Pizza Hut Delivers. And
with all those ratings, Bill can certainly deliver the goods! :-D

[Warren & Nancy]

Badwater Bill wrote:

> On 02 Aug 2003 07:19:28 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>
> >>No doubt your hero Zoomster, Ph.D. has all the info on just what you need.
> >>Not sure about that? Hey, just ask him!
> >
> >PhD = piled higher and deeper?
> >
> >Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
> Ah...duh... U.S. Air Farce Retarded is more like it chump.
>
> BWB Ph.D. ATP, CFI, CFII, B.S., M.S. M.S. M.S. SEL, MEL, SESea,
> MESea, Balloon, Glider, Helicopter, Hang Glider, Parachute, Jack Off

Damn, Bill, you are beginning to sound like your protégé, Wingy with all that
alphabet soup stuff.

Warren

[RobertR237]

In article >, Warren & Nancy >
writes:

>Badwater Bill wrote:
>
>> On 02 Aug 2003 07:19:28 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>>
>> >>No doubt your hero Zoomster, Ph.D. has all the info on just what you
>need.
>> >>Not sure about that? Hey, just ask him!
>> >
>> >PhD = piled higher and deeper?
>> >
>> >Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>>
>> Ah...duh... U.S. Air Farce Retarded is more like it chump.
>>
>> BWB Ph.D. ATP, CFI, CFII, B.S., M.S. M.S. M.S. SEL, MEL, SESea,
>> MESea, Balloon, Glider, Helicopter, Hang Glider, Parachute, Jack Off
>
>Damn, Bill, you are beginning to sound like your protégé, Wingy with all that
>alphabet soup stuff.
>
>Warren
>

And with all that he still left off the most telling one....OLD


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Ken Sandyeggo]

(RobertR237) wrote in message >...
> In article >, Warren & Nancy >
> writes:
>
> >Badwater Bill wrote:
> >
> >> On 02 Aug 2003 07:19:28 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
> >>
> >> >>No doubt your hero Zoomster, Ph.D. has all the info on just what you
> need.
> >> >>Not sure about that? Hey, just ask him!
> >> >
> >> >PhD = piled higher and deeper?
> >> >
> >> >Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
> >>
> >> Ah...duh... U.S. Air Farce Retarded is more like it chump.
> >>
> >> BWB Ph.D. ATP, CFI, CFII, B.S., M.S. M.S. M.S. SEL, MEL, SESea,
> >> MESea, Balloon, Glider, Helicopter, Hang Glider, Parachute, Jack Off
> >
> >Damn, Bill, you are beginning to sound like your protégé, Wingy with all that
> >alphabet soup stuff.
> >
> >Warren
> >
>
> And with all that he still left off the most telling one....OLD
>
>
> Bob Reed
> www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
> KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>
> "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
> pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
> (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

Hey! I have a PhD....not as often as when I was younger, but once in
awhile anyway...(Pretty Hard Dick).

Ken J. - Sand on E's Egg......Oh.

[Badwater Bill]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:28:30 GMT, "Bob" >
wrote:

>Hey Billy-
>You got all them pile-it letters but not the good ones. A & P and WTFO.

You got me. What is WTFO? White, tar and feathers officer?

What is it? Something ending with Flight Officer?

BWB

[Badwater Bill]

>> >
>>
>> And with all that he still left off the most telling one....OLD
>>
>>
>> Bob Reed

Oh, ****, Bob. You could have gone all evening and not said that. I
am old. I feel it in my bones. I know what I need. I think I need
to go out today and buy my sorry old decrepit ass a new Corvette. I
think I'll get one of them new fangled yeller ones with the black
convertible roof. That'll keep me young...maybe.

BWB

[Badwater Bill]

>Hey! I have a PhD....not as often as when I was younger, but once in
>awhile anyway...(Pretty Hard Dick).
>
>Ken J. - Sand on E's Egg......Oh.


BBWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!

God one Ken .

Hey, you still manufacturing those horizontal stabs? If so, do you
have one that will work on my Snobird gyroscope?

BWB

[Ken Sandyeggo]

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message >...
> >Hey! I have a PhD....not as often as when I was younger, but once in
> >awhile anyway...(Pretty Hard Dick).
> >
> >Ken J. - Sand on E's Egg......Oh.
>
>
> BBWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!
>
> God one Ken .
>
> Hey, you still manufacturing those horizontal stabs? If so, do you
> have one that will work on my Snobird gyroscope?
>
> BWB

Hi Bill,

Nah. After I came out with mine, a few others came out with cheaper
imitations and the market soon got flooded. I sold about 34 of them
though, which is not bad considering that they were designed
specifically for the RAF because of the canted vertical stab and the
small available market. Mine won't fit on anything else.

I since have had my gyro converted by American Autogyro (Div. of Groen
Bros). She now flies like a 172 on a calm day. It now has centerline
thrust instead of that foot-long too high thrustline the RAF comes
with and that sent so many innocent, poor slobs to their deaths. All
of them were flying without a horizontal stab, which RAF (Don LaFleur)
refrred to as a "contraption." Here's a link to AAI. The main photo
on the main page is my gyro and is on the bottom of the photo page. I
recently turned 406 hours on her.

www.americanautogyro.com

They'll be coming out with their own kits by the end of this year,
using only aircraft grade components and hardware, something RAF never
heard of. Take care.

Ken J. - Sandy A Go

[Bernie the Bunion]

> Ken Sandyeggo > wrote:

> It now has centerline
> thrust instead of that foot-long too high thrustline the RAF comes
> with and that sent so many innocent, poor slobs to their deaths.

Ken.... Would this, or does this, stop that buntover problem that
you have talked about before.

[RobertR237]

In article >,
(Badwater Bill) writes:

>>> >
>>>
>>> And with all that he still left off the most telling one....OLD
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob Reed
>
>Oh, ****, Bob. You could have gone all evening and not said that. I
>am old. I feel it in my bones. I know what I need. I think I need
>to go out today and buy my sorry old decrepit ass a new Corvette. I
>think I'll get one of them new fangled yeller ones with the black
>convertible roof. That'll keep me young...maybe.
>
>BWB
>
>

Yep, proof that you are getting OLD is the purchase of a new Vette. In fact, I
can't remember seeing anyone under 60 driving one of those recently. They are
about the only people who can afford them now. One warning though, at your
advanced age it is quite likely that once you get into it, you will not be able
to get out without a block and tackle.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH




Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Badwater Bill]

>>
>
>Yep, proof that you are getting OLD is the purchase of a new Vette. In fact, I
>can't remember seeing anyone under 60 driving one of those recently. They are
>about the only people who can afford them now. One warning though, at your
>advanced age it is quite likely that once you get into it, you will not be able
>to get out without a block and tackle.
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
>
>
>
>
>Bob Reed

I test drove one today then bought it. Just getting out of it was
about like giving birth.

I'll do the unspeakable, the unthinkable and the untollerable
tomorrow. I'll take a digital photo of it and post it here. All you
weenies who don't want to pay a nickel for an extra byte, be advised,
a JPG will come tomorrow when I get it home. What the ****. All you
do at the end of all this bull **** is lay in a box forever. I bought
the ****ing thing an hour ago...put it on a credit
card-BBWWAHAHHAHHHAHAHHHAHHHAHHHA

BWB

[Badwater Bill]

>
>Hi Bill,
>
>Nah. After I came out with mine, a few others came out with cheaper
>imitations and the market soon got flooded. I sold about 34 of them
>though, which is not bad considering that they were designed
>specifically for the RAF because of the canted vertical stab and the
>small available market. Mine won't fit on anything else.
>
>I since have had my gyro converted by American Autogyro (Div. of Groen
>Bros). She now flies like a 172 on a calm day. It now has centerline
>thrust instead of that foot-long too high thrustline the RAF comes
>with and that sent so many innocent, poor slobs to their deaths. All
>of them were flying without a horizontal stab, which RAF (Don LaFleur)
>refrred to as a "contraption." Here's a link to AAI. The main photo
>on the main page is my gyro and is on the bottom of the photo page. I
>recently turned 406 hours on her.
>
>www.americanautogyro.com
>
>They'll be coming out with their own kits by the end of this year,
>using only aircraft grade components and hardware, something RAF never
>heard of. Take care.
>
>Ken J. - Sandy A Go

Thanks for the update. You saved a lot of lives. Where flittering
fetters was milking the market with his piece of crap AirCommand,
there were guys like you who were trying to make it better. You have
a good spot in heaven for your efforts. Tony and I followed your
efforts more closely than you might think. You did a good job Ken.
You are to be commended. You made the problem of the high thrust line
in a pusher more docile to the newbee. I really do claim that you are
responsible for saving many lives. You should feel good about
yourself for that. You did a good job.

Best Wishes,

BWB

[John Ammeter]

On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 00:28:47 GMT,
(Badwater Bill) wrote:

>
>>>
>>
>>Yep, proof that you are getting OLD is the purchase of a new Vette. In fact, I
>>can't remember seeing anyone under 60 driving one of those recently. They are
>>about the only people who can afford them now. One warning though, at your
>>advanced age it is quite likely that once you get into it, you will not be able
>>to get out without a block and tackle.
>>
>>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Bob Reed
>
>I test drove one today then bought it. Just getting out of it was
>about like giving birth.
>
>I'll do the unspeakable, the unthinkable and the untollerable
>tomorrow. I'll take a digital photo of it and post it here. All you
>weenies who don't want to pay a nickel for an extra byte, be advised,
>a JPG will come tomorrow when I get it home. What the ****. All you
>do at the end of all this bull **** is lay in a box forever. I bought
>the ****ing thing an hour ago...put it on a credit
>card-BBWWAHAHHAHHHAHAHHHAHHHAHHHA
>
>BWB
>

I hope that credit card has an "air miles" program attached
to it...

John

[Badwater Bill]

>
>And finally, BWB goes COMPOSITE!
>
>
>Bob Reed

Ah ****. There's always a Kill-Joy in the crowd. From an RV-6 metal
machine to a plastic car, you hit it on the head Bob. I have to take
the heat. Now, you guys probably will think of me as Mr. Composite!
Damn, there's always a downside to everything ;-]

The Corvette cost more than the RV-6 too, and it doesn't even fly.
There's something wrong with this picture!

BWB

[Badwater Bill]

>
>Anyone that's flown a tenth as much as you claim to would know.

I never used that term. I have not flown as much as you think.
Remember, most of what appears here is usenet bull****. I only have
4000 hours PIC.

Just a rookie by most standards.

BWB



>
>What the ****, Over?
>
>Since this newsgroups gone to hell in a hurry, does anyone know if there's a
>mailing list that covers experimental homebuilts in general? I know there are a
>lot of them for specific models.
>
>Where are the uberhackers when you need them?

[Richard Lamb]

Badwater Bill wrote:
>
> >
> >And finally, BWB goes COMPOSITE!
> >
> >
> >Bob Reed
>
> Ah ****. There's always a Kill-Joy in the crowd. From an RV-6 metal
> machine to a plastic car, you hit it on the head Bob. I have to take
> the heat. Now, you guys probably will think of me as Mr. Composite!
> Damn, there's always a downside to everything ;-]
>
> The Corvette cost more than the RV-6 too, and it doesn't even fly.


Oh yes it does.

Yer just too old to try it any more... :(



> There's something wrong with this picture!
>
> BWB

[Ken Sandyeggo]

Bernie the Bunion > wrote in message >...
> > Ken Sandyeggo > wrote:
>
> > It now has centerline
> > thrust instead of that foot-long too high thrustline the RAF comes
> > with and that sent so many innocent, poor slobs to their deaths.
>
> Ken.... Would this, or does this, stop that buntover problem that
> you have talked about before.

Yes Bernie it does. With centerline thrust, there is no force above
the vertical center of gravity to push it over. You need thrust above
the vertical center of gravity in order to experience
(once-in-a-lifetime only) a buntover. Once you do it, at least you
don't ever have to worry about doing it again.

Ken J. - Psandie Aygowe

[RobertR237]

In article >,
(Badwater Bill) writes:

>
>>
>>And finally, BWB goes COMPOSITE!
>>
>>
>>Bob Reed
>
>Ah ****. There's always a Kill-Joy in the crowd. From an RV-6 metal
>machine to a plastic car, you hit it on the head Bob. I have to take
>the heat. Now, you guys probably will think of me as Mr. Composite!
>Damn, there's always a downside to everything ;-]
>
>The Corvette cost more than the RV-6 too, and it doesn't even fly.
>There's something wrong with this picture!
>
>BWB
>
>

You are right about that, you have totally lost your sense of priority. Any
damn fool can buy an expensive car and drive it. Get off your lazy butt and
build yourself a really fast Lancair IVP or Legacy and then you will know what
fast is all about. Hell man, you got the time so do something useful with it.




Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[Badwater Bill]

>>
>
>You are right about that, you have totally lost your sense of priority. Any
>damn fool can buy an expensive car and drive it. Get off your lazy butt and
>build yourself a really fast Lancair IVP or Legacy and then you will know what
>fast is all about. Hell man, you got the time so do something useful with it.
>
>
>
>
>Bob Reed

You know, you are right. I built a 36x36 shop this spring too. I put
a 10 foot high garage door on it that's 18 feet wide too. I'm all set.
I can wheel an R-22 in and out of there. I even put a restroom in it
so when my prostate swells up and I have to pee every 15 minutes, I
don't have to hang it out on a tree outside.

I'm acually all primed to build. And, the Lancair VP is exactly what
a guy needs. You can build that baby for $200k and it's worth $400k
when you are through. That's my kind of building project.

BWB

[Badwater Bill]

>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Yeah, yeah.
>
>AND....
>any damn fool can believe a picture shown on RAH of a dork
>claiming to own the Boxster he was standing by or sitting in.
>
>Surely, you have not forgotten the Wingbrat Porsche fiasco.
>
>
>Barnyard BOb --

Nah...he didn't buy a Boxster. It was wingbrat bull **** if he said
that. He bought that Mitsubishi Diamonte or whatever the hell you
call it. It's got those little tires on it so you feel every bump in
the road. I prefer my towncar anyday, because I'm an old man.

BWB

[Barnyard BOb --]

>>Surely, you have not forgotten the Wingbrat Porsche fiasco.
>>
>>
>>Barnyard BOb --
>
>Nah...he didn't buy a Boxster. It was wingbrat bull **** if he said
>that. He bought that Mitsubishi Diamonte or whatever the hell you
>call it. It's got those little tires on it so you feel every bump in
>the road. I prefer my towncar anyday, because I'm an old man.
>
>BWB
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nah...
You won't be an old man fer another 11 years, sonny. <g>
No need to ax me how I know.


Barnyard BOb - gen-u-wine social security old phart

[Richard Lamb]

"Capt. Doug" wrote:
>
> >Badwater Bill wrote in message>I built a 36x36 shop this spring too. I put
> > a 10 foot high garage door on it that's 18 feet wide too. I'm all set.
> > I can wheel an R-22 in and out of there.
>
> 10' high doors work for the R-22, but I'm wondering if an R-44 can fit by
> tilting the machine backwards or maybe sideways on a trick dolly.
>
> D.

While we are on this particular drift,

I really need ground gear for my lawn ornament.
http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/rvn.htm/v_loh01c.jpg

A dolly won't work due to low doors...

I need to be able to move it around easier.
Pipe rollers and a bunch of helpers is not convenient.

Anybody have a clue?

Richard

[Warren & Nancy]

I couldn't get the pics tocome up!

Richard Lamb wrote:

> "Capt. Doug" wrote:
> >
> > >Badwater Bill wrote in message>I built a 36x36 shop this spring too. I put
> > > a 10 foot high garage door on it that's 18 feet wide too. I'm all set.
> > > I can wheel an R-22 in and out of there.
> >
> > 10' high doors work for the R-22, but I'm wondering if an R-44 can fit by
> > tilting the machine backwards or maybe sideways on a trick dolly.
> >
> > D.
>
> While we are on this particular drift,
>
> I really need ground gear for my lawn ornament.
> http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/rvn.htm/v_loh01c.jpg
>
> A dolly won't work due to low doors...
>
> I need to be able to move it around easier.
> Pipe rollers and a bunch of helpers is not convenient.
>
> Anybody have a clue?
>
> Richard

[Bill Higdon]

I got there doing this goto http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/, then click
on the Viet Nam Service Ribbon/Medal
Bill HIgdon
Warren & Nancy wrote:
> I couldn't get the pics tocome up!
>
> Richard Lamb wrote:
>
>
>>"Capt. Doug" wrote:
>>
>>>>Badwater Bill wrote in message>I built a 36x36 shop this spring too. I put
>>>>a 10 foot high garage door on it that's 18 feet wide too. I'm all set.
>>>>I can wheel an R-22 in and out of there.
>>>
>>>10' high doors work for the R-22, but I'm wondering if an R-44 can fit by
>>>tilting the machine backwards or maybe sideways on a trick dolly.
>>>
>>>D.
>>
>>While we are on this particular drift,
>>
>>I really need ground gear for my lawn ornament.
>>http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/rvn.htm/v_loh01c.jpg
>>
>>A dolly won't work due to low doors...
>>
>>I need to be able to move it around easier.
>>Pipe rollers and a bunch of helpers is not convenient.
>>
>>Anybody have a clue?
>>
>>Richard
>
>

[Rich S.]

"Richard Lamb" > wrote in message
...
>
> While we are on this particular drift,
>
> I really need ground gear for my lawn ornament.
> http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/rvn.htm/v_loh01c.jpg
>
> A dolly won't work due to low doors...
>
> I need to be able to move it around easier.
> Pipe rollers and a bunch of helpers is not convenient.
>
> Anybody have a clue?
>
> Richard

Air skids. http://www.hovair.com/air-bearings/air-bearings-other-terms.htm

Rich S.

[Kevin O'Brien]

In article >, Ken Sandyeggo
says...
>
>Yes Bernie it does. With centerline thrust, there is no force above
>the vertical center of gravity to push it over. You need thrust above
>the vertical center of gravity in order to experience
>(once-in-a-lifetime only) a buntover. Once you do it, at least you
>don't ever have to worry about doing it again.

Actually, Ken, you could still manually bunt the thing over with the stick.
Can't think of why anyone
would. The AAI redesign does seem to eliminate power pushover (the most common
cause of
bunting), and reduces the divergent pitch-recovery mode that leads to PIO (the
next most common
cause). It also takes out that long slow oscillation that RAF's have.

I have been following the AAI thing for a while... spent a couple hours with Jim
Mayfield at
Mentone... spent more time at Fondy during OSH... flew it slightly (not much).
The demonstrators
they have been using are not their new gyro but modified RAF's like yours.
Theirs is going to have
a slightly larger cabin as well.

I have a big story I'm working up on the whole AAI vs RAF thing... RAF is
demoralised, and many of
their dealers have bailed. But others are standing by out of loyalty. It's kind
of a mess.

RAF's answer is a sort of a trim vane mounted to the rotor mast, behind the
cabin. They call it the
Rotor Stabilator. Seen it?

cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[Bob]

What the F__k, over?"

--
Bob



Copyright 2002
Permission given for nonprofit use only.
Badwater Bill > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:28:30 GMT, "Bob" >
> wrote:
>
> >Hey Billy-
> >You got all them pile-it letters but not the good ones. A & P and WTFO.
>
> You got me. What is WTFO? White, tar and feathers officer?
>
> What is it? Something ending with Flight Officer?
>
> BWB
>

[Ken Sandyeggo]

Kevin O'Brien > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Ken Sandyeggo
> says...
> >
> >Yes Bernie it does. With centerline thrust, there is no force above
> >the vertical center of gravity to push it over. You need thrust above
> >the vertical center of gravity in order to experience
> >(once-in-a-lifetime only) a buntover. Once you do it, at least you
> >don't ever have to worry about doing it again.
>
> Actually, Ken, you could still manually bunt the thing over with the stick.
> Can't think of why anyone
> would. The AAI redesign does seem to eliminate power pushover (the most common
> cause of
> bunting), and reduces the divergent pitch-recovery mode that leads to PIO (the
> next most common
> cause). It also takes out that long slow oscillation that RAF's have.
>
> I have been following the AAI thing for a while... spent a couple hours with Jim
> Mayfield at
> Mentone... spent more time at Fondy during OSH... flew it slightly (not much).
> The demonstrators
> they have been using are not their new gyro but modified RAF's like yours.
> Theirs is going to have
> a slightly larger cabin as well.
>
> I have a big story I'm working up on the whole AAI vs RAF thing... RAF is
> demoralised, and many of
> their dealers have bailed. But others are standing by out of loyalty. It's kind
> of a mess.
>
> RAF's answer is a sort of a trim vane mounted to the rotor mast, behind the
> cabin. They call it the
> Rotor Stabilator. Seen it?
>
> cheers


Kevin,

I'm not a real technical bug, but you're right, I should have said
"power-pushover." I've seen photos of it. Minds that are more
scientific and knowledgeable than mine analyzed the RAF "stabilator"
and pronounced it basically worthless on the gyro forum. RAF says
that it "stabilizes the rotor." The gyro forum is down right now.
When it comes back up, I'll copy and paste the analysis of the RAF
stabilator. As far as I know, they only have 3 dealers left in the
U.S. There were four left, but the one in Florida got all his tickets
suspended for a year. (They had around a dozen just a few years ago.
They lost their New Zealand and Australian dealers also.) It was for
instructing in an illegal gyro, but he's the one that had about 4
students and a passenger die in unstabbed RAFs after taking lessons
from him in less than a year. I think you have to read between the
lines on the FAA's findings. I think that they needed to get him on
the ground for awhile someway.

My converted gyro flies like a dream now. It was a great investment
on the conversion. No more pitching and yawing all over the place.

Ken J. - Sandy A. Ghowe



>
> -=K=-
>
> Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[Richard Lamb]

A less formal version of the interogative, The F comma What.

Bob wrote:
>
> What the F__k, over?"
>
> --
> Bob
>

[Dave Hyde]

pac plyer wrote:

> In my opinion this is a motocross term; WTFO: Wide Throttle, Full
> Open. It is not used in aviation.

The definition given previously is common in Naval aviation.
Can't say I've heard it alot WRT GA, but I've done *my* part :-)

http://www.hazegray.org/faq/slang2.htm

Dave 'fubar' Hyde

[pac plyer]

Dave Hyde > wrote in message >...
> pac plyer wrote:
>
> > In my opinion this is a motocross term; WTFO: Wide Throttle, Full
> > Open. It is not used in aviation.
>
> The definition given previously is common in Naval aviation.
> Can't say I've heard it alot WRT GA, but I've done *my* part :-)
>
> http://www.hazegray.org/faq/slang2.htm
>
> Dave 'fubar' Hyde
>

Gee Mr Fubar, I use that term all the time. Never heard anybody
include "WTFO" as a rating before! Really took the polar route on me.
I mangled the dirt bike WFO to get someone to react and spell it out
for me.

Next time, I'll RTFQ closer (clever secret airline term)

pac "spoof" plyer

[nafod40]

Dave Hyde wrote:

> pac plyer wrote:
>
>> I mangled the dirt bike WFO to get someone to react and spell it out
>> for me.
>
> Here's another one for you: MOTO

Mewing Of The Orphans? :-)

> Dave 'AMF, YOYO' Hyde

I always heard it as KMAGYOYO

[Ken Sandyeggo]

(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote in message >...
> Kevin O'Brien > wrote in message >...
> > In article >, Ken Sandyeggo
> > says...
> > >
> > >Yes Bernie it does. With centerline thrust, there is no force above
> > >the vertical center of gravity to push it over. You need thrust above
> > >the vertical center of gravity in order to experience
> > >(once-in-a-lifetime only) a buntover. Once you do it, at least you
> > >don't ever have to worry about doing it again.
> >
> > Actually, Ken, you could still manually bunt the thing over with the stick.
> > Can't think of why anyone
> > would. The AAI redesign does seem to eliminate power pushover (the most common
> > cause of
> > bunting), and reduces the divergent pitch-recovery mode that leads to PIO (the
> > next most common
> > cause). It also takes out that long slow oscillation that RAF's have.
> >
> > I have been following the AAI thing for a while... spent a couple hours with Jim
> > Mayfield at
> > Mentone... spent more time at Fondy during OSH... flew it slightly (not much).
> > The demonstrators
> > they have been using are not their new gyro but modified RAF's like yours.
> > Theirs is going to have
> > a slightly larger cabin as well.
> >
> > I have a big story I'm working up on the whole AAI vs RAF thing... RAF is
> > demoralised, and many of
> > their dealers have bailed. But others are standing by out of loyalty. It's kind
> > of a mess.
> >
> > RAF's answer is a sort of a trim vane mounted to the rotor mast, behind the
> > cabin. They call it the
> > Rotor Stabilator. Seen it?
> >
> > cheers
>
>
> Kevin,
>
> I'm not a real technical bug, but you're right, I should have said
> "power-pushover." I've seen photos of it. Minds that are more
> scientific and knowledgeable than mine analyzed the RAF "stabilator"
> and pronounced it basically worthless on the gyro forum. RAF says
> that it "stabilizes the rotor." The gyro forum is down right now.
> When it comes back up, I'll copy and paste the analysis of the RAF
> stabilator. As far as I know, they only have 3 dealers left in the
> U.S. There were four left, but the one in Florida got all his tickets
> suspended for a year. (They had around a dozen just a few years ago.
> They lost their New Zealand and Australian dealers also.) It was for
> instructing in an illegal gyro, but he's the one that had about 4
> students and a passenger die in unstabbed RAFs after taking lessons
> from him in less than a year. I think you have to read between the
> lines on the FAA's findings. I think that they needed to get him on
> the ground for awhile someway.
>
> My converted gyro flies like a dream now. It was a great investment
> on the conversion. No more pitching and yawing all over the place.
>
> Ken J. - Sandy A. Ghowe
>
>
>
> >
> > -=K=-
> >
> > Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.


Here are some comments by Doug Riley, a pretty knowledgeable person
regarding gyro aerodynamics, and his comments on RAF's "Rotor
Stabilator."

"It's hard to tell from the pictures just what this thing is. I'm
assuming that it's a small airfoil linked to the torque bar, with
in-flight variable incidence.

If this assumption is accurate, then it's a pleasant gadget that will
act as a semi-intelligent flight adjustable trim spring. Like the
gimbal head, such a device can produce control pressures that tend to
return the craft to a selected trimmed airspeed after a small
disturbance. Nothing that "stabilizes" the aircraft using rotor
forces can solve the problem caused by a high thrustline, however.

That's because the rotor takes a vacation during zero G events.
Aerodynamically, the rotor "disappears" when it's no longer lifting
the gyro. In such conditions, it doesn't matter in the least where
the rotor points. As a result, it sure doesn't matter whether a
highly trained pilot, or the gimbal head, or the rubber mast or the
magic trim vane is manipulating the rotor; REGARDLESS, THE ROTOR CAN
APPLY NO THRUST TO THE FRAME IN ZERO G.

If, without the rotor's restraining force, the airframe wants to flip
end over end, it's going to. The only way to prevent this is to
arrange the airframe so that it tracks straight and level in a zero G
situation WITHOUT help from the rotor. A no-HS gyro with 500 ft-lb. of
nose down force at full throttle will not track straight and level for
even an instant, once rotor thrust is lost.

A stable airframe is the key to ending the PPO."

I'll see if there are any more pertinent comments and post them later.

Ken J. - SDCAUSA

[Big John]

What about FNG ????

Put that on my R/C trainer when I started R/C.

Big John


On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:44:13 +0000 (UTC), nafod40
> wrote:

>Dave Hyde wrote:
>
>> pac plyer wrote:
>>
>>> I mangled the dirt bike WFO to get someone to react and spell it out
>>> for me.
>>
>> Here's another one for you: MOTO
>
>Mewing Of The Orphans? :-)
>
>> Dave 'AMF, YOYO' Hyde
>
>I always heard it as KMAGYOYO

[Rich S.]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> What about FNG ????
>
> Put that on my R/C trainer when I started R/C.
>
> Big John

The word FIGMO was painted on my Bro's F-84 after a year at Pusan.

Rich S.

[Kevin O'Brien]

In article >, Ken Sandyeggo
says...
><I snipped the earlier replies for brevity - KO>

>> I'm not a real technical bug, but you're right, I should have said
>> "power-pushover." I've seen photos of it.

I haven't (seen photos) but I've read enough NTSB gyro accidents, and
"aftermath" photos from the
British AAIB, that my mind's eye fills in. Ya know what I mean.

>> RAF says
>> that it "stabilizes the rotor."

It's still pretty experimental, I think. They had it on a gyro in the tent at
OSH and I could not get a
coherent explanation. Everyone said talk to Duane. However, at Fond du Lac Duane
was busy as
hell doing demo flights. I spent one half day there -- all I could -- and never
got the chance to
talk to him. His gyro had the rotor stabilator on it. As Dofin explained it, it
serves to both return
the rotor to its position/trimmed speed, and also -- and this, in my opinion, is
the more important
use -- to provide asymptotically increasing stick force with stick displacement.
In other words, the
more you move it, the more it resists being moved. This might be very
beneficial for a novice RAF
driver -- as you well know, and as I am slowly learning, it's a fingertip
airplane, not something
where you throw the stick around with wild abandon.

But even Dofin said, "talk to Duane," so until I do, I can't say with 100%
certainty what his goals
with the stabbed machine are. He clearly is pretty confident with it because he
flies pax in it on
demo flights, but then again he's got a bunch of gyro hours.


>> The gyro forum is down right now.

Where can I find that? Might be an educational place to lurk.


>> As far as I know, they only have 3 dealers left in the
>> U.S.

I heard only two, and Jim Mayfield is going hard after them. I have seen this
with my own eyes!
Mayfield has a different concept of dealers, or maybe it's fairer to say he is
going further along in
the direction RAF was trying to go with full-service dealers (sales, service,
builder assistance, and
especially training).

>> There were four left, but the one in Florida got all his tickets
>> suspended for a year.

I have flown with that guy and while he enjoys the capabilities of the RAF, I
didn't think we were
ever within hailing distance of "unsafe." I have been plenty scared in fixed and
rotary wing aircraft,
and with him and the RAF, I wasn't. FWIW.

He is still a dealer and provides all the services he can while suspended. I
personally doubt that his
DE will be returned to him, but the other licences should be after a year on the
bench. He is not by
nature a super patient man, and I think this is a very frustrating year for him.

AAI has a dealer in the greater Tampa area. Nice fellow.

>> (They had around a dozen just a few years ago.
>> They lost their New Zealand and Australian dealers also.)

There were a couple of South Africans looking for the franchise for their
homeland. Had a good
time talking politics, etc., with them ("We can live with it... it's the least
****ed up country in all
Africa!" was the sentiment). They flew both machines, back to back. I have no
idea which way they
went, if any.

FWIW to get to the RAF tent you had to walk past the AAI tent. However, both
groups were bending
over backwards to make sure that someone who came to Fondy specifically to fly
one gyro or the
other got to the right guys.

The RAF people believe that AAIs stress on safety and stability & control is a
direct attack on them,
and they are defensive about the safety of their machine. I think that the basis
for this is largely
emotional: who wants to believe that his design has contributed to the early
demise of people who
trusted him?

Unfortunately the aerodynamic research is in AAI's favour. Dofin told me, which
is apparently the
RAF party line, that there has been no new gyro stability & control stuff
published since NACA in
the thirties... unfortunately, that's not true; the University of Glasgow did
(and is still doing)
extensive S&C work, now with a Magni that has been modified to have an
adjustable thrustline,
Center of Mass, and control surfaces... and they concluded that the most
important things were (1)
centerline thrust, and (2) a stab. The centerline thrust is of overriding
importance.


>> instructing in an illegal gyro,

As I understand it, he didn't wait for a registration on a customer machine.
Foolish, but like I say,
he ain't a poster boy for vulture-like patience.

>> but he's the one that had about 4
>> students and a passenger die in unstabbed RAFs after taking lessons

Now, when I flew with him we discussed this, and he said that he would recommend
the stab for
students... he thought it was unnecessary once a pilot got experience.

>> I think that they needed to get him on
>> the ground for awhile someway.

I think if they really believed he was unsafe, they wouldn't pussyfoot around
with a suspension.
FAA are not shy about seeking revocation, and an excuse can be as good as a
reason with them.

>> My converted gyro flies like a dream now. It was a great investment
>> on the conversion. No more pitching and yawing all over the place.


A couple questions:

1) did it cost you anything in cruise speed? Or rate of climb?

2) How bout crosswind capability? RAF says the conversion hurts this, But it
sure seemed to my
inexperienced feet to have more rudder authority, not less.


>Here are some comments by Doug Riley, a

Thanks, Ken... these were interesting. Like I said, where is that rotor forum
at?

cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[Badwater Bill]

>
>Hey Bill,
>
>In my opinion this is a motocross term; WTFO: Wide Throttle, Full
>Open. It is not used in aviation. By the way 4,000 hours in GA is
>probably equiv to 10,000 hours in airline hours since most of that is
>on autopilot reading magazines.

I agree. Down low, dirty and slow, riding in the wx and the bumps is
where I spent that 4000 hours. I have 2000 more in the front seat of
Huey's on floats flying in **** wx. It was all real time.

10,000 in the Boeings on autopilot above 10 thousand msl talking about
pussy and real estate deals is not the same.

But, there are some good guys out there with a lot of experience who
did that too. I have a buddy I just had lunch with who just retired
from Continental with 35,000 hours. He flew P-3's and the
Constellation before that in the Air Farce. He's got some
stories...like flying through typhoons. But, he also built a Pitts
S-1 and competes with it too, so he really can fly.

BWB



>
>pacplyer

[BllFs6]

5 WORDS.....

Horizontal Stabilizers ARE ABSOLUTELY necessary....

No amount of pilot skill will prevent a push/roll/bunt over event if the
gyrocopter experiences a zero g event.......and it only have to experience it
for a second or 2 to roll over all the way....

How many hours of flying do you think you could get away with before a nice
downdraft was gracious enough to give you said zero g event?

In line thrust helps alot and it probably doesnt hurt to get anal retentive
about it being as "inline" as possible...

But ya STILL NEED that stabilizer.....

Without that stabilizer.....you might as well just pop in an untested
autoconversion and fly over the rockies for testing....probably about as
risky....


go to the fly gyro forum....look at all the great stuff written by craig
wall....its a REAL eye opener...


sad thing is I get the impression that gyro's COULD be some of the safetest
things around to fly if they werent being flown (and built) by absolute morons
without stabilizers....


do an FAA database search and read all the gyro accidents....doesnt take too
long actually.....virtually all the accidents are rollovers and its darn hard
to rollover when you HAVE a stabilizer....without one..well....thats a
different story...


take care

Bll

[Ken Sandyeggo]

Kevin, I'll move this to the top. The conversion improved everything.
My original RAF cruised around 60 m.p.h. Anything above felt
squirrely with a lot of pitch oscillation. I then added a horizontal
stab and it moved into the high 60s. After the AAI conversion, I
cruise close to 80. These are m.p.h. and at minimum engine rpm to
maintain altitude. Same exact engine and prop. The cross wind
capability is vastly improved. With the new tall tail, the rudder
pedals are probably used about 15% of the time compared to the stock
RAF, and I no longer get cramps in my toes and calves from having to
tap-dance constantly on the rudder pedals to fight the yawing
tendency. My stick is now solid as a rock and has absolutely no
twitchiness, which is the norm for a stock RAF. I know that RAF will
not let a prospective customer take the stick on an orientation
(introductory flight lesson) flight. AAI will hand it over almost
immediately. There's that much difference.

There's a link in the Groen Bros. threads named "The Blubber-butt
Challenge" on the rotorcraft forum. (Link below). It's about my
taking a 290 pound friend for a ride on a 100 degree day at 1400' MSL.
I could never have done that in the original RAF. It was too
inefficiently designed. I hardly have anything original left on mine,
other than the cabin and basic engine block. I have different rotors,
ignition systems, FI system, landing gear, tail and most components.

The "stabilator" does absolutely nothing to counteract a
power-pushover and is useless for stick-fixed stability which is the
true measurement for stability in a gyro. Dofin was able to fly his
stock RAF with no hands and throttle control, but if he ever locked
the stick, he'd have crashed within a minute. You don't stabilize a
rotor. It's always stable in a flight regimen. It's the stuff
hanging below it that needs to be stabilized. The 500+ pounds of
thrust that is dangerously placed almost a foot above the vertical C
of G is what kills you by waiting for that opportune moment to send
your ass flying over your shoulders in a forward power-pushover. The
only cure is center-line thrust, not a tool shelf mounted on the upper
mast. A horizontal stabilizer is a great Band-Aid, but all the force
exerted by the stab to keep the tail down is just so much wasted
energy.

They can't give you a coherent explanation. It's smoke and mirrors
and they don't have a clue to even the most basic of gyro
aerodynamics. Duanne Hunn designed it. He has absolutely no
credentials except he's a decent "stick." He can't talk about it. He
has no clue as to what he stuck up there or what it really
does....basically nothing. Who in their right mind would promote
flying a gyro with a 10"+ offset thrustline without at least a
horizontal stabilizer? That right there confirms RAF as idiots of the
first class. They call a horizontal stab a "contraption."

Another point is that their new "stabilator" will make the RAF stable.
They have argued vehemently for all the years I've known them that
their gyro is safe and stable. They have to this day, never admitted
that that the RAF was unstable. How the hell can you come out with a
stabilizing device when you never admitted that your gyro was ever
unstable? They're stuck between a rock and a hard place and talking
out of both sides of their mouths, with a ton of egg on their faces.

Go to www.rotorcraft.com and click on the upper left instrument on the
panel to get to the gyro forum. It's privately owned and there are
some rules. Profanity and name-calling are reasonably controlled and
everyone must I.D. themselves. Nameless trolls are simply erased.
Once logged on, click on the RAF threads and then one about "Duane's
contraption" or something for a very in depth disussion on it. There
are some RAF apologists there and you'll see the stupidity of their
arguments immediately. Most of them are semi-literate and can't spell
or structure a sentence. It's a great place for anyone interested in
gyros. There are some extremely talented engineers, designers,
mathematicians and knowledgeable people......none of whom can grasp
any critical use for the stabilator. Other components already handle
the mild dampening it's capable of. As far as making an unstabbed RAF
stable....pure bull****. RAF doesn't even have a pilot on staff let
alone credentialed engineers or designers and never have. Their name
says it all...."Rotary Air Force Marketing."

Search out the threads on RAF and you'll get a good insight on their
sliminess, dishonesty, lying, and tractor-grade components in critical
flight components. There's enough reading that exposes them for the
immoral and dishonest people they are to last a lifetime.....if you're
not too young. I have first-hand knowledge. I bought and built one.
Thank God I realized the necessity of a horizontal stab and the
necessity to upgrade their shoddy and cheap components before I killed
myself and maybe another. And now, thanks to Jim Mayfield and AAI for
coming up with a safe and stable center-line conversion and soon to be
kit.

I'm not going to post here to argue with any RAF flacks and flunkies
who may appear. They're too stupid to reason with, even when smacked
directly in the face with irrefutable proof and basic physics and
aerodynamics. Go to the link for really good info. If you like
gyros, you'll love the place. Again, it's www.rotorcraft.com and
click the link to the forum....the ROC instrument.

Ken J. - Sandy Aigo




Kevin O'Brien > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Ken Sandyeggo
> says...
> ><I snipped the earlier replies for brevity - KO>
>
> >> I'm not a real technical bug, but you're right, I should have said
> >> "power-pushover." I've seen photos of it.
>
> I haven't (seen photos) but I've read enough NTSB gyro accidents, and
> "aftermath" photos from the
> British AAIB, that my mind's eye fills in. Ya know what I mean.
>
> >> RAF says
> >> that it "stabilizes the rotor."
>
> It's still pretty experimental, I think. They had it on a gyro in the tent at
> OSH and I could not get a
> coherent explanation. Everyone said talk to Duane. However, at Fond du Lac Duane
> was busy as
> hell doing demo flights. I spent one half day there -- all I could -- and never
> got the chance to
> talk to him. His gyro had the rotor stabilator on it. As Dofin explained it, it
> serves to both return
> the rotor to its position/trimmed speed, and also -- and this, in my opinion, is
> the more important
> use -- to provide asymptotically increasing stick force with stick displacement.
> In other words, the
> more you move it, the more it resists being moved. This might be very
> beneficial for a novice RAF
> driver -- as you well know, and as I am slowly learning, it's a fingertip
> airplane, not something
> where you throw the stick around with wild abandon.
>
> But even Dofin said, "talk to Duane," so until I do, I can't say with 100%
> certainty what his goals
> with the stabbed machine are. He clearly is pretty confident with it because he
> flies pax in it on
> demo flights, but then again he's got a bunch of gyro hours.
>
>
> >> The gyro forum is down right now.
>
> Where can I find that? Might be an educational place to lurk.
>
>
> >> As far as I know, they only have 3 dealers left in the
> >> U.S.
>
> I heard only two, and Jim Mayfield is going hard after them. I have seen this
> with my own eyes!
> Mayfield has a different concept of dealers, or maybe it's fairer to say he is
> going further along in
> the direction RAF was trying to go with full-service dealers (sales, service,
> builder assistance, and
> especially training).
>
> >> There were four left, but the one in Florida got all his tickets
> >> suspended for a year.
>
> I have flown with that guy and while he enjoys the capabilities of the RAF, I
> didn't think we were
> ever within hailing distance of "unsafe." I have been plenty scared in fixed and
> rotary wing aircraft,
> and with him and the RAF, I wasn't. FWIW.
>
> He is still a dealer and provides all the services he can while suspended. I
> personally doubt that his
> DE will be returned to him, but the other licences should be after a year on the
> bench. He is not by
> nature a super patient man, and I think this is a very frustrating year for him.
>
> AAI has a dealer in the greater Tampa area. Nice fellow.
>
> >> (They had around a dozen just a few years ago.
> >> They lost their New Zealand and Australian dealers also.)
>
> There were a couple of South Africans looking for the franchise for their
> homeland. Had a good
> time talking politics, etc., with them ("We can live with it... it's the least
> ****ed up country in all
> Africa!" was the sentiment). They flew both machines, back to back. I have no
> idea which way they
> went, if any.
>
> FWIW to get to the RAF tent you had to walk past the AAI tent. However, both
> groups were bending
> over backwards to make sure that someone who came to Fondy specifically to fly
> one gyro or the
> other got to the right guys.
>
> The RAF people believe that AAIs stress on safety and stability & control is a
> direct attack on them,
> and they are defensive about the safety of their machine. I think that the basis
> for this is largely
> emotional: who wants to believe that his design has contributed to the early
> demise of people who
> trusted him?
>
> Unfortunately the aerodynamic research is in AAI's favour. Dofin told me, which
> is apparently the
> RAF party line, that there has been no new gyro stability & control stuff
> published since NACA in
> the thirties... unfortunately, that's not true; the University of Glasgow did
> (and is still doing)
> extensive S&C work, now with a Magni that has been modified to have an
> adjustable thrustline,
> Center of Mass, and control surfaces... and they concluded that the most
> important things were (1)
> centerline thrust, and (2) a stab. The centerline thrust is of overriding
> importance.
>
>
> >> instructing in an illegal gyro,
>
> As I understand it, he didn't wait for a registration on a customer machine.
> Foolish, but like I say,
> he ain't a poster boy for vulture-like patience.
>
> >> but he's the one that had about 4
> >> students and a passenger die in unstabbed RAFs after taking lessons
>
> Now, when I flew with him we discussed this, and he said that he would recommend
> the stab for
> students... he thought it was unnecessary once a pilot got experience.
>
> >> I think that they needed to get him on
> >> the ground for awhile someway.
>
> I think if they really believed he was unsafe, they wouldn't pussyfoot around
> with a suspension.
> FAA are not shy about seeking revocation, and an excuse can be as good as a
> reason with them.
>
> >> My converted gyro flies like a dream now. It was a great investment
> >> on the conversion. No more pitching and yawing all over the place.
>
>
> A couple questions:
>
> 1) did it cost you anything in cruise speed? Or rate of climb?
>
> 2) How bout crosswind capability? RAF says the conversion hurts this, But it
> sure seemed to my
> inexperienced feet to have more rudder authority, not less.
>
>
> >Here are some comments by Doug Riley, a
>
> Thanks, Ken... these were interesting. Like I said, where is that rotor forum
> at?
>
> cheers
>
> -=K=-
>
> Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[Ken Sandyeggo]

Here are 2 pertinent posts regarding RAF's "stabilator."

"Attaching a little wing to the pushrods creates a kind of
semi-intelligent mother-in-law who's always got her hands on the stick
along with you. She likes to keep the rotor spindle at a fixed angle
to the relative wind (WHAT angle depends on the incidence of the
wing). If you try to move the rotor spindle away from this fixed
angle, she resists this and makes your work a little bit harder.
That's not a bad thing, although it tends to duplicate the work that
the offset gimbal head already does.

It can't overcome the effects of a fuselage that wants to tumble,
though. The stabilizing wing has to be attached to the unstable thing
in order to stabilize it. In gyro low-G tumbles, the unstable thing is
not the rotor. The rotor is just the victim, dragged over by an
out-of-control fuselage. The stabilizer has to be bolted to the real
troublemaker, the fuselage.

Doug Riley"




"That's not to say an aerodynamic vane linked to the rotorhead won't
improve stick free rotor stability but it is no solution whatever for
the basic problem of offset propeller thrust line and unstable
fuselage.

This is not a personal attack on Duane Hunn. Duane is a very nice
person who is genuinely interested in promoting gyro safety as best he
can but he's up to his ass in alligators.



C.A. Beaty"


















Kevin O'Brien > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Ken Sandyeggo
> says...
> ><I snipped the earlier replies for brevity - KO>
>
> >> I'm not a real technical bug, but you're right, I should have said
> >> "power-pushover." I've seen photos of it.
>
> I haven't (seen photos) but I've read enough NTSB gyro accidents, and
> "aftermath" photos from the
> British AAIB, that my mind's eye fills in. Ya know what I mean.
>
> >> RAF says
> >> that it "stabilizes the rotor."
>
> It's still pretty experimental, I think. They had it on a gyro in the tent at
> OSH and I could not get a
> coherent explanation. Everyone said talk to Duane. However, at Fond du Lac Duane
> was busy as
> hell doing demo flights. I spent one half day there -- all I could -- and never
> got the chance to
> talk to him. His gyro had the rotor stabilator on it. As Dofin explained it, it
> serves to both return
> the rotor to its position/trimmed speed, and also -- and this, in my opinion, is
> the more important
> use -- to provide asymptotically increasing stick force with stick displacement.
> In other words, the
> more you move it, the more it resists being moved. This might be very
> beneficial for a novice RAF
> driver -- as you well know, and as I am slowly learning, it's a fingertip
> airplane, not something
> where you throw the stick around with wild abandon.
>
> But even Dofin said, "talk to Duane," so until I do, I can't say with 100%
> certainty what his goals
> with the stabbed machine are. He clearly is pretty confident with it because he
> flies pax in it on
> demo flights, but then again he's got a bunch of gyro hours.
>
>
> >> The gyro forum is down right now.
>
> Where can I find that? Might be an educational place to lurk.
>
>
> >> As far as I know, they only have 3 dealers left in the
> >> U.S.
>
> I heard only two, and Jim Mayfield is going hard after them. I have seen this
> with my own eyes!
> Mayfield has a different concept of dealers, or maybe it's fairer to say he is
> going further along in
> the direction RAF was trying to go with full-service dealers (sales, service,
> builder assistance, and
> especially training).
>
> >> There were four left, but the one in Florida got all his tickets
> >> suspended for a year.
>
> I have flown with that guy and while he enjoys the capabilities of the RAF, I
> didn't think we were
> ever within hailing distance of "unsafe." I have been plenty scared in fixed and
> rotary wing aircraft,
> and with him and the RAF, I wasn't. FWIW.
>
> He is still a dealer and provides all the services he can while suspended. I
> personally doubt that his
> DE will be returned to him, but the other licences should be after a year on the
> bench. He is not by
> nature a super patient man, and I think this is a very frustrating year for him.
>
> AAI has a dealer in the greater Tampa area. Nice fellow.
>
> >> (They had around a dozen just a few years ago.
> >> They lost their New Zealand and Australian dealers also.)
>
> There were a couple of South Africans looking for the franchise for their
> homeland. Had a good
> time talking politics, etc., with them ("We can live with it... it's the least
> ****ed up country in all
> Africa!" was the sentiment). They flew both machines, back to back. I have no
> idea which way they
> went, if any.
>
> FWIW to get to the RAF tent you had to walk past the AAI tent. However, both
> groups were bending
> over backwards to make sure that someone who came to Fondy specifically to fly
> one gyro or the
> other got to the right guys.
>
> The RAF people believe that AAIs stress on safety and stability & control is a
> direct attack on them,
> and they are defensive about the safety of their machine. I think that the basis
> for this is largely
> emotional: who wants to believe that his design has contributed to the early
> demise of people who
> trusted him?
>
> Unfortunately the aerodynamic research is in AAI's favour. Dofin told me, which
> is apparently the
> RAF party line, that there has been no new gyro stability & control stuff
> published since NACA in
> the thirties... unfortunately, that's not true; the University of Glasgow did
> (and is still doing)
> extensive S&C work, now with a Magni that has been modified to have an
> adjustable thrustline,
> Center of Mass, and control surfaces... and they concluded that the most
> important things were (1)
> centerline thrust, and (2) a stab. The centerline thrust is of overriding
> importance.
>
>
> >> instructing in an illegal gyro,
>
> As I understand it, he didn't wait for a registration on a customer machine.
> Foolish, but like I say,
> he ain't a poster boy for vulture-like patience.
>
> >> but he's the one that had about 4
> >> students and a passenger die in unstabbed RAFs after taking lessons
>
> Now, when I flew with him we discussed this, and he said that he would recommend
> the stab for
> students... he thought it was unnecessary once a pilot got experience.
>
> >> I think that they needed to get him on
> >> the ground for awhile someway.
>
> I think if they really believed he was unsafe, they wouldn't pussyfoot around
> with a suspension.
> FAA are not shy about seeking revocation, and an excuse can be as good as a
> reason with them.
>
> >> My converted gyro flies like a dream now. It was a great investment
> >> on the conversion. No more pitching and yawing all over the place.
>
>
> A couple questions:
>
> 1) did it cost you anything in cruise speed? Or rate of climb?
>
> 2) How bout crosswind capability? RAF says the conversion hurts this, But it
> sure seemed to my
> inexperienced feet to have more rudder authority, not less.
>
>
> >Here are some comments by Doug Riley, a
>
> Thanks, Ken... these were interesting. Like I said, where is that rotor forum
> at?
>
> cheers
>
> -=K=-
>
> Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[Ken Sandyeggo]

(BllFs6) wrote in message >...
> 5 WORDS.....
>
> Horizontal Stabilizers ARE ABSOLUTELY necessary....
>
> No amount of pilot skill will prevent a push/roll/bunt over event if the
> gyrocopter experiences a zero g event.......and it only have to experience it
> for a second or 2 to roll over all the way....
>
> How many hours of flying do you think you could get away with before a nice
> downdraft was gracious enough to give you said zero g event?
>
> In line thrust helps alot and it probably doesnt hurt to get anal retentive
> about it being as "inline" as possible...
>
> But ya STILL NEED that stabilizer.....
>
> Without that stabilizer.....you might as well just pop in an untested
> autoconversion and fly over the rockies for testing....probably about as
> risky....
>
>
> go to the fly gyro forum....look at all the great stuff written by craig
> wall....its a REAL eye opener...
>
>
> sad thing is I get the impression that gyro's COULD be some of the safetest
> things around to fly if they werent being flown (and built) by absolute morons
> without stabilizers....
>
>
> do an FAA database search and read all the gyro accidents....doesnt take too
> long actually.....virtually all the accidents are rollovers and its darn hard
> to rollover when you HAVE a stabilizer....without one..well....thats a
> different story...
>
>
> take care
>
> Bll

Bll, in case you misread me, I agree, you have to have a horizontal
stabilizer at a minimum. The AAI conversion and soon to be delivered
kits have a horizontal stab built into the tall, vertical rudder.
It's located mid-propstream. I wasn't advocating CLT without a stab.
You need both for maximum stability and safety.

Ken J. - SDCAUSA

[pac plyer]

Big John > wrote in message >...
> For you non VN types, FNG meant F*****g New Guy.
>
> Big John
>
>

See Big John, we all can cuss and get along. :=) This group is
seeing real progress. Now, on your above post John, as Pappy once
said: "If you'll just remove those damn stars General, we could have a
good time at the party tonight with the nurses." ;-)

Baa Baa Cargo Dog

pacplyer
self-anointed netshrink of RAH

[Corrie]

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message >...

> But, there are some good guys out there with a lot of experience who
> did that too. I have a buddy I just had lunch with who just retired
> from Continental with 35,000 hours. He flew P-3's and the
> Constellation before that in the Air Farce. He's got some
> stories...like flying through typhoons. But, he also built a Pitts
> S-1 and competes with it too, so he really can fly.


Wow. And here I was impressed with the guys I knew with 18 and 19,000
hours. (The guy with 18k probably had a lot more - he quit logging
time except as required for currency some years back.) Makes you
wonder, though - what's the record? (Space station astronauts don't
count - that's cheating.)

BTW - I thought the P-3 was a Navy plane?

CB

[Barnyard BOb --]

On 14 Aug 2003 19:32:38 -0700, (Nafod40) wrote:

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message >...
>> >
>> >Hey Bill,
>> >
>> >In my opinion this is a motocross term; WTFO: Wide Throttle, Full
>> >Open. It is not used in aviation. By the way 4,000 hours in GA is
>> >probably equiv to 10,000 hours in airline hours since most of that is
>> >on autopilot reading magazines.
>>
>> I agree. Down low, dirty and slow, riding in the wx and the bumps is
>> where I spent that 4000 hours
>
>4000 hours in GA? Sounds like "fly 1 hour and repeat 3999 times" to me. :)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
....
Nah.
What you have described is.... crop dusting.

You could get killed at least once each hour
and repeat 3999 times if your good at it.

Hmmm..
That doesn't quite sound right.


Barnyard BOb --

[pac plyer]

(Badwater Bill) wrote <snip>
> I agree. Down low, dirty and slow, riding in the wx and the bumps is
> where I spent that 4000 hours. I have 2000 more in the front seat of
> Huey's on floats flying in **** wx. It was all real time.<snip>

Damn. I didn't know you could/would/should put a thing with that many
moving parts into a cloud. <bfg> Or do you scudrun in that bird? What
about ice? Did you just stay below the freezing level all the time?
What about airways? Did you have to stay low to make atc happy? How
fast does one clip along at? Got a neighbor that flys his private rig
past here once in a while (l-u-cky little *******! :-)

Only flew a R-22 one time with a friend instructor. Scared myself
pretty good in the Supulveda Basin. Was not a good day for an intro
though, windy as hell.

I understand it's hypothetical mind you, in case a dweeb is paddling
around here somewhere.

pac

[David O]

Barnyard BOb -- > wrote:

>Nah.
>What you have described is.... crop dusting.
>
>You could get killed at least once each hour
>and repeat 3999 times if your good at it.
>
>Hmmm..
>That doesn't quite sound right.


Chuckle. :)

[OldCop]

"Badwater Bill" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
>
> I'll bet you most of the dweebs here don't even know what the term
> NOTAR for helicopters means, or what adverse yaw is (why the rudder is
> on the airplane).
>
> BWB
>
>
> >
> >pac
>

Isn't that like blowing it out your ass?

:-)

OldCop

[Ed Sullivan]

"OldCop" > wrote in message news:<DD7%a.117253$cF.32495@rwcrnsc53>...
> "Badwater Bill" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >
> >
> > I'll bet you most of the dweebs here don't even know what the term
> > NOTAR for helicopters means, or what adverse yaw is (why the rudder is
> > on the airplane).
> >
> > BWB
> >
> >
> > >
> > >pac
> >
>
> Isn't that like blowing it out your ass?

Yeah, but you have to have a multidirectional asshole

Ed Sullivan, the late
>
> :-)
>
> OldCop

[pac plyer]

(Ed Sullivan) wrote in message >...
> "OldCop" > wrote in message news:<DD7%a.117253$cF.32495@rwcrnsc53>...
> > "Badwater Bill" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll bet you most of the dweebs here don't even know what the term
> > > NOTAR for helicopters means, or what adverse yaw is (why the rudder is
> > > on the airplane).
> > >
> > > BWB
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >pac
> > >
> >
> > Isn't that like blowing it out your ass?
>
> Yeah, but you have to have a multidirectional asshole
>
> Ed Sullivan, the late
> >

Hey Ed,

how'd you get that handle? I been lurking a long time (before I got
impotent? enought to post.) I must of missed it somewhere.

pacplyer
finally got a year off after twenty years hard labor

[Jerry Springer]

pac plyer wrote:
> (Ed Sullivan) wrote in message >...
>
>>"OldCop" > wrote in message news:<DD7%a.117253$cF.32495@rwcrnsc53>...
>>
>>>"Badwater Bill" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>I'll bet you most of the dweebs here don't even know what the term
>>>>NOTAR for helicopters means, or what adverse yaw is (why the rudder is
>>>>on the airplane).
>>>>
>>>>BWB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>pac
>>>>
>>>Isn't that like blowing it out your ass?
>>
>>Yeah, but you have to have a multidirectional asshole
>>
>>Ed Sullivan, the late
>>
>
> Hey Ed,
>
> how'd you get that handle? I been lurking a long time (before I got
> impotent? enought to post.) I must of missed it somewhere.
>
> pacplyer
> finally got a year off after twenty years hard labor

That's an easy one because Ed Sullivan is dead. Haven't you noticed the
shew is not on TV anymore? :-)

Jerry Springer

[Kevin O'Brien]

In article >, Ken Sandyeggo
says...
>
>Kevin, I'll move this to the top. The conversion improved everything.

Ken, thanks for all and I will definitely nose about the rotorcraft forums.

Thanks to Bill also

My personal opinion, based on my understanding of the aero involved and reading
what Glasgow
has published, is that centerline (centre-of-mass) thrust is more important than
the stab both in
preventing PPO and PIO. But both are important.

You can fly a gyro without knowing theory, I think, but God help the pilots who
fly a machine that
was designed without theory.

cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

[Warren & Nancy]

pac plyer wrote:

>
>
> I couldn't help but notice that Bernie the Butt**** has not posted
> anything anywhere since the 12th. Kinda confirms to me that he lives
> up in Eastern Canada and is in that nasty Blackout. Here's hoping it
> lasts a least a month.

Thanks a bunch turkey! 30 hours in SE MI was enough thank you very
much!!!!!

Warren



>

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:19:37 -0400, Warren & Nancy >
wrote:

>
>
>pac plyer wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I couldn't help but notice that Bernie the Butt**** has not posted
>> anything anywhere since the 12th. Kinda confirms to me that he lives
>> up in Eastern Canada and is in that nasty Blackout. Here's hoping it
>> lasts a least a month.
>
>Thanks a bunch turkey! 30 hours in SE MI was enough thank you very
>much!!!!!
>
What? You didn't join the throngs abandoning the city and enjoying the
big parking lots called express ways? Over 5 hours from Ann Arbor to
Jackson yesterday morning as I understand.

The outage didn't hit us, but it did come up through the center of the
state as far north as Clare and one feeder line just 4 miles west of
us. I'm just over 2 miles west of Midland's city limits.

Beautiful day today...just a few scattered clouds and visibility 2 in
haze. A couple of stray thunderstorms, but nothing close to here.

Oops..it's all the way up to three...VFR is here. But we now have a
ceiling at roughly 22,000.
Wind WNW @ 7, temp 75, humidity 85%, DP 70, Vis 3.
Tain't quite as good as the terminal forecasts were predicting. But
what the heck...VFR in August.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

>Warren
>
>
>
>>

[Big John]

What do you mean dead.

I saw him on TV last night introducing the Beatles.

Big John


On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:51:00 GMT, Jerry Springer
> wrote:

>
>
>pac plyer wrote:
>> (Ed Sullivan) wrote in message >...
>>
>>>"OldCop" > wrote in message news:<DD7%a.117253$cF.32495@rwcrnsc53>...
>>>
>>>>"Badwater Bill" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>>I'll bet you most of the dweebs here don't even know what the term
>>>>>NOTAR for helicopters means, or what adverse yaw is (why the rudder is
>>>>>on the airplane).
>>>>>
>>>>>BWB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>pac
>>>>>
>>>>Isn't that like blowing it out your ass?
>>>
>>>Yeah, but you have to have a multidirectional asshole
>>>
>>>Ed Sullivan, the late
>>>
>>
>> Hey Ed,
>>
>> how'd you get that handle? I been lurking a long time (before I got
>> impotent? enought to post.) I must of missed it somewhere.
>>
>> pacplyer
>> finally got a year off after twenty years hard labor
>
>That's an easy one because Ed Sullivan is dead. Haven't you noticed the
>shew is not on TV anymore? :-)
>
>Jerry Springer

[Dagda]

(pac plyer) wrote in message

> God... Usenet in the hands of mere mortals.... quite an experiment.

$50k unsecured credit line in JP's name is approved by bank in Nevada.

[bryan chaisone]

Hey BWB!

Gonna take that Vette to the lake? Watch out for that Ranger!

I was in Thailand this past New Year and had a blast. Anyways, if you
ever want to feel young again, go to Thailand with me for a week or
two. I am a US citizen of Thai decent. I speak, read and write Thai.
I'll bet you will want to go back at least twice a year. "Live like
a king in the US = $$$$$$$, Live like a king in Thailand = $". The
whole coutry is structured to serve the allmighty greenback.

Regards,
Bryan

P.S. I told you to tell them that the tide went out on you.

Have fun with the Vette.

[Warren & Nancy]

Roger Halstead wrote:

>
> What? You didn't join the throngs abandoning the city and enjoying the
> big parking lots called express ways? Over 5 hours from Ann Arbor to
> Jackson yesterday morning as I understand.
>

I fortunately filled up the car Wednesday night, and didn't have to go
anywhere, so we toughed it out. But when the bedroom light went on at 0030,
we got up, shut the windows and turned on the a/c.

Warren

[Warren & Nancy]

pac plyer wrote:

> Warren & Nancy > wrote in message >...
> > pac plyer wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I couldn't help but notice that Bernie the Butt**** has not posted
> > > anything anywhere since the 12th. Kinda confirms to me that he lives
> > > up in Eastern Canada and is in that nasty Blackout. Here's hoping it
> > > lasts a least a month.
> >
> > Thanks a bunch turkey! 30 hours in SE MI was enough thank you very
> > much!!!!!
> >
> > Warren
>
> Dang, why do you have to live so close to bad's troll? :-) I guess
> we'll call off the power worm if it got you guys too.
>
> pac
> dreading the return of the mindless trolls

I run a euchre game at the Senior Center. Last Thursday a bunch of my normal players went to
Windsor Raceway Casino. As they were waiting for the bus, I told them I was going to put the
hex on them so they wouldn't win anything. Boy, I am going to have to review my hex book. I
really fixed them up. I imagine I am going to catch it next Thursday. ;-))

Warren

[Snowbird]

(pac plyer) wrote in message >...
> Dang, why do you have to live so close to bad's troll? :-) I guess
> we'll call off the power worm if it got you guys too.
<...>
> dreading the return of the mindless trolls

1) What makes you call Edmonton, Alberta "so close" to Michigan?
I suppose....would that put St. Louis adjacent to Baltimore?

Must be that heavy iron perspective on distance...

2) Putting 50 million people in the dark to avoid you having
to set up a killfile or filter seems a bit extreme, dunnit?

Sydney

[BllFs6]

Hi all,

Here is a really good forum for gyro's..

http://pub23.ezboard.com/btheflygyroforums

read Craig Wall's posts if you really wanna understand gyro dynamics.....

take care

Bll

[Model Flyer]

>
> I'll bet you most of the dweebs here don't even know what the term
> NOTAR for helicopters means,

It's to do with saving the skids to land on, you need to keep above
the black-top, otherwise the skids get kind of bent out of shape,
thus the notice just over the pilots dor NO TAR.

> or what adverse yaw is

Please sir, please sir, I know that one.<g>.


> (why the rudder is on the airplane).

The rudder, ehm, isn't that to keep your feed occupied, stop them
getting numb while flying for long hours?

>


--

..
--
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe
modelflyer at antispam dot net

Antispam trap in place

> BWB
>
>
> >
> >pac
>

[Model Flyer]

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...

> state as far north as Clare and one feeder line just 4 miles west
of
> us. I'm just over 2 miles west of Midland's city limits.
>

Never did see what caused that outage, any update would be
appreciated!

> Beautiful day today...just a few scattered clouds and visibility 2
in
> haze. A couple of stray thunderstorms, but nothing close to here.
>
> Oops..it's all the way up to three...VFR is here. But we now have a
> ceiling at roughly 22,000.
> Wind WNW @ 7, temp 75, humidity 85%, DP 70, Vis 3.
> Tain't quite as good as the terminal forecasts were predicting.
But
> what the heck...VFR in August.

I was going to ask. "are you going flying then?", however I looked at
the date so my realy question is Did you go flying?
--

..
--
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe
modelflyer at antispam dot net

Antispam trap in place



>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
> N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
> >Warren
> >
> >
> >
> >>
>

[Badwater Bill]

Ed:

I thought you were dead!

BWB



>
>Yeah, but you have to have a multidirectional asshole
>
>Ed Sullivan, the late
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> OldCop

[Badwater Bill]

On 16 Aug 2003 19:07:15 -0700, (Snowbird)
wrote:

(pac plyer) wrote in message >...
>> Dang, why do you have to live so close to bad's troll? :-) I guess
>> we'll call off the power worm if it got you guys too.
><...>
>> dreading the return of the mindless trolls
>
>1) What makes you call Edmonton, Alberta "so close" to Michigan?
> I suppose....would that put St. Louis adjacent to Baltimore?
>
>Must be that heavy iron perspective on distance...
>
>2) Putting 50 million people in the dark to avoid you having
> to set up a killfile or filter seems a bit extreme, dunnit?
>
>Sydney

Another profound post concerning aviation topics by none other than
Sydney. What will she say next? I can't wait.

BWB