Iowa Aviation Weather...en Espanol

[Jay Honeck]

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125

(or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)

Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
employee to create a foreign-language web page?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?

Yes.

One nice thing I can say about France is that everything is in French. If you
immigrate to France, you must learn French. Nobody publishes anything in your
language for your convenience, and if you demand that others do things in your
own language, you'll be laughed at and/or ridiculed.

Step one in moving to France for me was to become proficient in French. I've
never asked anyone in France to do things in English for me. I fill out all
government forms in French. I speak only French at government offices. Never
a word in English.

This being so, I'm perfectly placed and qualified to say that every immigrant
can and must learn the national language. Any immigrant who doesn't is lazy
and unlikely to ever properly assimilate into his adopted society. Thus,
anyone who immigrates to the U.S. and doesn't learn to do everything in
English can do everyone a favor by returning to wherever he came from.

As for people who are born in the U.S. and don't speak English, their parents
are incompetent and are preventing them from ever fully functioning or
succeeding in U.S. society.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jose]

> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?

Yo no lo encuentro así. ¿Que es su problema?

José
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[C J Campbell]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:40:36 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125

>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?

No. No cuido se habla qué lengua.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Tony]

Sometimes this 'melting pot' ain't doing much melting.

I say, let them eat English!



On Feb 12, 4:40 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&...
>
> (orhttp://tinyurl.com/39s8j5if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[JK]

No
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125
>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Michelle P]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125
>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
Yes,
This is the last straw. I am writing my congress person.
This has gone too far. Our language is English learn it or leave.

Michelle (****ed)

[C J Campbell]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:43:21 -0800, Michelle P wrote
(in article >):

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=1
>> 25
>>
>> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>>
>> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
>> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
>> employee to create a foreign-language web page?
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
> Yes,
> This is the last straw. I am writing my congress person.
> This has gone too far. Our language is English learn it or leave.
>
> Michelle (****ed)

I know some Englishmen who would beg to differ with that statement. :-)

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Mxsmanic]

Michelle P writes:

> This is the last straw. I am writing my congress person.
> This has gone too far. Our language is English learn it or leave.

It is interesting to note that, statistically, of all the Spanish-speaking
people who _cannot_ read and write English in the U.S., most are also
illiterate in Spanish as well. So putting a Web page in Spanish accomplishes
nothing at all--anyone literate in Spanish in the U.S. is also likely to be
literate in English, and any Spanish-speaking person who can't read English
probably can't read Spanish, either.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[vincent p. norris]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:43:21 GMT, Michelle P
> wrote:

>Jay Honeck wrote:
>> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125
>>

>Yes,
>This is the last straw. I am writing my congress person.
>This has gone too far. Our language is English learn it or leave.
>
>Michelle (****ed)

Well, Michelle, why don't you learn it? That posting is hardly a model
of good writing.

vince norris

[Jay Honeck]

> One nice thing I can say about France is that everything is in French. If you
> immigrate to France, you must learn French. Nobody publishes anything in your
> language for your convenience, and if you demand that others do things in your
> own language, you'll be laughed at and/or ridiculed.

At last -- a reason to admire the French! I *knew* they had to have
some redeeming qualities...

;-)

Seriously, I find it appalling that our supposedly cash-strapped
National Weather Service is wasting untold oodles of taxpayer money on
bilingual weather forecasting. Who in the hell authorized THAT
expenditure?

First of all, take a look at that webpage. As if ANYONE can't figure
out what the weather forecast is simply by looking at the pictograms?
Why did we need to pay someone to translate it into a foreign
language?

I find what's happening to our society -- at taxpayer expense -- to be
more than a little aggravating.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> Seriously, I find it appalling that our supposedly cash-strapped
> National Weather Service is wasting untold oodles of taxpayer money on
> bilingual weather forecasting.

I doubt it's much. How many phrases do you think are involved? Google
could probably do it.

And they did save some money on one phrase. I think Wednesday evening
was supposed to be "cold". That's the new Spanish word for "Frio".

> As if ANYONE can't figure
> out what the weather forecast is simply by looking at the pictograms?

=That= is the real problem. All those pictograms instead of real
weather information. Pretty soon we'll be looking at a forecast that
consists of happy faces and sad faces, and dire warnings to stay inside
because it's dark at night.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[DaveB]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:53:24 -0500, vincent p. norris >
wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:43:21 GMT, Michelle P
> wrote:
>
>>Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125
>>>
>
>>Yes,
>>This is the last straw. I am writing my congress person.
>>This has gone too far. Our language is English learn it or leave.
>>
>>Michelle (****ed)
>
>Well, Michelle, why don't you learn it? That posting is hardly a model
>of good writing.
>
>vince norris

Vince, crawl back under your rock.
Daveb

[Tony]

Interesting point. Is there evidence to support the statement that
those here who only speak Spanish can't read that language?

On Feb 12, 8:40 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Michelle P writes:
> > This is the last straw. I am writing my congress person.
> > This has gone too far. Our language is English learn it or leave.
>
> It is interesting to note that, statistically, of all the Spanish-speaking
> people who _cannot_ read and write English in the U.S., most are also
> illiterate in Spanish as well. So putting a Web page in Spanish accomplishes
> nothing at all--anyone literate in Spanish in the U.S. is also likely to be
> literate in English, and any Spanish-speaking person who can't read English
> probably can't read Spanish, either.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Michelle P]

vincent p. norris wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:43:21 GMT, Michelle P
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>>>http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125
>>>
>
>
>>Yes,
>>This is the last straw. I am writing my congress person.
>>This has gone too far. Our language is English learn it or leave.
>>
>>Michelle (****ed)
>
>
> Well, Michelle, why don't you learn it? That posting is hardly a model
> of good writing.
>
> vince norris
I never said I was good at it. I do know the language.

[Hamish Reid]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125
>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?

In what sense is Spanish a foreign language in the US? It's the dominant
language in the part of the US I live in...

Hamish

[Bob Fry]

No. Finally government begins to respond to citizen needs and all you
do is bitch about it.
--
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "Tony" == Tony > writes:

Tony> Interesting point. Is there evidence to support the
Tony> statement that those here who only speak Spanish can't read
Tony> that language?

No. Just more mxmaniac BS.

--
I've been around so long, I knew Doris Day before she was a virgin.
Groucho Marx

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "DB" == DaveB <DaveB> writes:

DB> Vince, crawl back under your rock. Daveb

That is the rock called the Midwest?
--
If you're ever shipwrecked on a tropical island and you don't
know how to speak the natives' language, just say "Poppy-oomy." I
bet it means something.
- Jack Handey

[C J Campbell]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:05:44 -0800, Hamish Reid wrote
(in article
>):

> In article . com>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=1
>> 25
>>
>> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>>
>> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
>> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
>> employee to create a foreign-language web page?
>
> In what sense is Spanish a foreign language in the US? It's the dominant
> language in the part of the US I live in...
>
> Hamish

Yes, and it was here a long time before English was, too.

The US has never had an 'official' language and it does not need one now. I
don't need some government regulator telling me what language to speak.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Morgans]

"Hamish Reid" > wrote

> In what sense is Spanish a foreign language in the US? It's the dominant
> language in the part of the US I live in...

Just because it is so, does not make it correct.

The United States was made great because of the immigrants moving here, and
the US becoming the "melting pot."

Although there were neighborhoods of native language speakers in large
cities, for the most part, people all learned English, to advance themselves
in our common culture.

Now it does not seem to be fashionable to do so, and is enabled by our
government. Sad.

Youngsters coming into school should be taught English, ONLY, until they are
able to communicate within the classroom setting. Night classes for adults
should be set up, and incentives set out for attending, and becoming English
speakers.

Perhaps no handouts after 6 months, without being functional English
speakers and readers? That would be a start.

There need to be some reversals on policy, soon. I don't see it, though.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Logajan]

C J Campbell > wrote:
> The US has never had an 'official' language and it does not need one
> now. I don't need some government regulator telling me what language
> to speak.

While I would agree with that general sentiment, the FARs require that you
be able to read, speak, write and understand the English language before
you can be issued a pilot certificate.

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> Interesting point. Is there evidence to support the statement that
> those here who only speak Spanish can't read that language?

The studies I saw supported it very well, and it does make logical sense.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Hamish Reid writes:

> In what sense is Spanish a foreign language in the US?

In just about every sense. It's the language of the mainstream, of success,
of society, of the media. You can't really participate in American society
without it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Hamish Reid]

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> "Hamish Reid" > wrote
>
> > In what sense is Spanish a foreign language in the US? It's the dominant
> > language in the part of the US I live in...
>
> Just because it is so, does not make it correct.
>
> The United States was made great because of the immigrants moving here, and
> the US becoming the "melting pot."
>
> Although there were neighborhoods of native language speakers in large
> cities, for the most part, people all learned English, to advance themselves
> in our common culture.
>
> Now it does not seem to be fashionable to do so, and is enabled by our
> government. Sad.
>
> Youngsters coming into school should be taught English, ONLY, until they are
> able to communicate within the classroom setting. Night classes for adults
> should be set up, and incentives set out for attending, and becoming English
> speakers.
>
> Perhaps no handouts after 6 months, without being functional English
> speakers and readers? That would be a start.
>
> There need to be some reversals on policy, soon. I don't see it, though.

None of that really answers the question: in what sense is Spanish a
foreign language in the US? As several people have pointed out, it
predates English in these parts by a long way, and has been spoken
continuously 'round here by immigrants and native-born citizens alike
for all of that time.

Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?

Hamish

[Morgans]

"Hamish Reid" > wrote

> None of that really answers the question: in what sense is Spanish a
> foreign language in the US? As several people have pointed out, it
> predates English in these parts by a long way, and has been spoken
> continuously 'round here by immigrants and native-born citizens alike
> for all of that time.

Now you are being silly. English is the official language in the US, and is
the only language of record. That says it all.

Now, it those who refuse to speak it want to sit back in the corner and be
quiet, fine with me.
--
Jim in NC

[Sylvain]

Morgans wrote:

> Now you are being silly. English is the official language in the US, and
> is the only language of record. That says it all.

hmm, care to quote the chapter and verse of the relevant CFR where this
is stated? (you can get all the CFRs, not just 14, here: gpoaccess.gov
-- ok, there is something about it in 8 CFR, but that's about
naturalization; frankly I haven't read all of them, so you might very
well be right); I don't see it in the constitution however.

as for the 'only language of record', have a look at your US passport
if you have one, and tell us what language or languages it is written
in?

--Sylvain

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?

Tla. Ayv a-da-nv-te-s-gv na-s-gi o-s-dv.

Matt Roberds

(The above is an automated translation into a language I am not very
familiar with and may contain errors.)

[Mxsmanic]

Hamish Reid writes:

> None of that really answers the question: in what sense is Spanish a
> foreign language in the US? As several people have pointed out, it
> predates English in these parts by a long way, and has been spoken
> continuously 'round here by immigrants and native-born citizens alike
> for all of that time.

It is not the predominant language in the U.S., irrespective of any historical
or minority use.

> Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?

Yes.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> as for the 'only language of record', have a look at your US passport
> if you have one, and tell us what language or languages it is written
> in?

Passports are specifically intended for use abroad. Mine is in English and
French.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Bob Fry >
wrote:

> No. Finally government begins to respond to citizen needs and all you
> do is bitch about it.

How many citizens can only read/write Spanish?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jay Honeck]

> The US has never had an 'official' language and it does not need one now. I
> don't need some government regulator telling me what language to speak.

You (and others like you) are dooming us to Balkanization.

Without a common language, no country can long survive.

But that's beside the original point. Who in the HELL authorized the
creation of a foreign language webpage by our supposedly cash-strapped
National Weather Service?

Apparently they have money to burn, and we shouldn't be concerned with
their budget in the future.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?

In the context of modern-day America, and this conversation, of
course.

Really, I don't care WHAT language is mandated. Hell, let's use
Sioux, if you want.

But one must be decided upon and adhered to, officially, or America is
doomed to become Yugoslavia.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[C J Campbell]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:31:47 -0800, Morgans wrote
(in article >):

>
> "Hamish Reid" > wrote
>
>> None of that really answers the question: in what sense is Spanish a
>> foreign language in the US? As several people have pointed out, it
>> predates English in these parts by a long way, and has been spoken
>> continuously 'round here by immigrants and native-born citizens alike
>> for all of that time.
>
> Now you are being silly. English is the official language in the US, and is
> the only language of record. That says it all.

There is no official language in the US. Anyone who says that there is is
ignorant of American history, American law, and American values.

Saints preserve us from becoming like the French, arguing endlessly about
whether every word is sufficiently pure enough to be used in both daily and
official discourse.

Now then, I know of places, I have been to places, where they speak English,
have for generations, and you would barely understand a word they say.
English is now the dominant language of the world. There are more people who
speak English as a second language than those who learned it as their primary
language. But that English has many forms. There is no international or even
national body that can decide what is 'proper' English.

If you want to make English an official language, you then have to decide
which English is the official form. And then you get into arguing about
whether words like "turkey" are English or not. Some knothead will decide
that you cannot eat "beef" because that is French; you have to eat "cow." You
cannot drive an "auto" because that is German. And "cars" are too French. So
they will make up some purely English word. You allow some board of academics
to decide that their politically correct version of English is preferable to
the sexist, racist, patriarchal, oppressive, obnoxious English that you
speak. And there will be endless litigation over whether some contract was
actually written in English. Do you want that? Because I can guarantee you,
all those countries that do have an official language have those things.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 04:18:53 -0800, Bob Noel wrote
(in article >):

> In article >, Bob Fry >
> wrote:
>
>> No. Finally government begins to respond to citizen needs and all you
>> do is bitch about it.
>
> How many citizens can only read/write Spanish?
>
>

The last survey indicated about 14 million, including Puerto Rico which,
IIRC, is part of the United States. The United States is the fifth largest
Spanish speaking country in the world. Spanish is spoken by more people than
all other languages, including Native languages, combined except for English.
New Mexico provided in its constitution when it became a state that the
government would be bilingual. For a time, after the Louisiana Purchase,
Spanish was more commonly spoken in the US than was English, and French was
almost as common.

On the other hand, Spanish is dying out in some US and former US territories.
It has almost completely disappeared in the Philippines in less than two
generations, where just thirty years ago it was one of the official
languages. Few people speak it in Guam or the Pacific Islands any more.

Today, Spanish is rapidly becoming the dominant language in many big cities,
including Washington, D.C. Birth rates among Spanish speakers are higher than
English speakers and, if the trend continues, there will come a time when
English will be a minority language.

Despite centuries of assimilation, there are still pockets of people who
speak only French, German or other languages in the US. And let us not forget
our debt to the Navajo code talkers. Perhaps one day people will be concerned
about catering to those pockets of Anglos who refuse to assimilate.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 04:43:49 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>> The US has never had an 'official' language and it does not need one now. I
>> don't need some government regulator telling me what language to speak.
>
> You (and others like you) are dooming us to Balkanization.
>
> Without a common language, no country can long survive.

Nonsense. Plenty of countries without a common language have been around for
a lot longer than we have. Even the US has never had a common language and
for part of its history English was a minority language.

You keep insisting that Spanish is a foreign language. In what way is it a
foreign language that English is not?


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Flydive]

Jay Honeck wrote:
cut
> Without a common language, no country can long survive.
>
Cut
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Well Switzerland did quite well for more than 700 years(4 official
languages), as did other multilingual countries around the world.
How old is USA?

[Jose]

> The United States was made great because of the immigrants moving here, and the US becoming the "melting pot."

The United States was made great... er... powerful, because all of us
(at least all of us who matter) are the same. We speak the same
language, we have the same religion, we have the same moral values, we
are the same color, and we have the same aspirations. That we are all
the same allows us to unify in a very deep sense, and saves us from
unnecessary effort and angst.

Before you spout off calling this all BS, consider how we are reacting now.

People who are different are a crack in that unity. They make others
uncomfortable. They are a threat to the lifestyle, rights, and control
that the others (already) have. They require special accomodation, both
in the legal sense and in the social sense. They require us to be tolerant.

Tolerant of colored skin. Of wrong religious beliefs. Of depraved
marital ideas. Of incomprehensible tongues. Of idiot politics. Of
choice of intoxicants. Of ideas and ideals that we ourselves do not
share, we are required to be tolerant. We are required to share the
power, the vote, with those who do not deserve it because they are
different from us. This does not go down well. Americans seem to feel
that everyone else should conform to our views.

We preach tolerance, but don't practice it very well. How many
Americans whose native language is Engligh can actually =speak= a second
language?

Pilots as a group are also "different" and we want "accomodation" from
the masses, so that we can do what we do, which is not something most
people are interested themselves in doing. We are different, and thus
inconvenient. It's kind of hypocritical to demand accomodation on one
side, and then demand conformance on the other side.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 04:47:24 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article om>):

>> Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?
>
> In the context of modern-day America, and this conversation, of
> course.
>
> Really, I don't care WHAT language is mandated. Hell, let's use
> Sioux, if you want.
>
> But one must be decided upon and adhered to, officially, or America is
> doomed to become Yugoslavia.

I sincerely doubt that. Yes, English is more dominant now than it was when
you were born, but now it is losing a little of that dominance. You need to
get out of Iowa once in awhile. Visit Washington, D.C., or New Mexico, or
Puerto Rico. We have managed to hold this country together for more than two
centuries despite the fact that so many languages are spoken in it. I suspect
it will continue for a few more.

You must believe that America has become weak indeed if it can no longer
tolerate what has been the situation since its inception. I suspect that the
problem is more that we now have better communication in the country, and a
lot of folks who live in what were relatively isolated, English speaking,
farming communities are suddenly discovering that the rest of America is not
like that. And they don't like it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 04:47:24 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article om>):

>> Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?

>
> But one must be decided upon and adhered to, officially, or America is
> doomed to become Yugoslavia.


No. Intolerance created Yugoslavia's problems. You decide that somebody who
speaks a different language or who has a different religion is no longer
worthy to be allowed to do that or to live next door to you despite the fact
that his ancestors have for centuries -- well, when you decide that then what
separates you from Milosevic? I really hope we have learned better than that.



--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Tony writes:
>
>> Interesting point. Is there evidence to support the statement that
>> those here who only speak Spanish can't read that language?
>
> The studies I saw supported it very well, and it does make logical
> sense.

Oh I remember those. The studies that you refused to cite when I gave you
two cites that disputed them.

[Tony]

Is Puerto Rico an inconvenient counter example to this statement?

On Feb 13, 1:08 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Tony writes:
> > Interesting point. Is there evidence to support the statement that
> > those here who only speak Spanish can't read that language?
>
> The studies I saw supported it very well, and it does make logical sense.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bob Fry]

Spanish is not a foreign language. The Spanish were the first
Europeans to arrive in the New World. They colonized most of the
americas long before the English and other N. Europeans arrived here,
and made ventures into the Midwest. Of course they established the
California missions and other outposts while the N. European colonists
were stuck on the east coast.

Whenever I see some story about Lewis and Clark I snicker. Cortes and
other Spanish and Portugese pioneers make them and the English
seem like cub scouts.

The history of mankind is basically the history of groups stealing
from each other. The stealers make a noble explanation for their
acts, the stealees whine.

WTF does this have to do with piloting anyway.
--
Remember men you are fighting for the ladies honour, which is probably
more than she ever did.
Groucho Marx

[Bob Fry]

What will doom the US to the Yugoslavia model is the bigotry of its
citizens, not the languages they use.
--
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And
I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting
there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money
- Jack Handey

[Don Tuite]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:04:54 -0800, Sylvain > wrote:

>as for the 'only language of record', have a look at your US passport
>if you have one, and tell us what language or languages it is written
>in?
>
To be fair, U.S. passports are not written for Americans to read.
Their polyglot text, intended for the eyes of foreign officials and
police, is a tacit recognition of the concept of native languages.

Don

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "mx" == mxsmanic > writes:

mx> The studies I saw supported it very well, and it does make
mx> logical sense.

It makes sense to shallow bigots.

Most of the Mexican nationals in the US are poor country people from
northern Mexico, but even they have learned the basics of reading and
writing their native language. Do you even know any of these people?
--
"The great thing about Object Oriented code is that it can make small,
simple problems look like large, complex ones."

[Montblack]

("Bob Noel" wrote)
> How many citizens can only read/write Spanish?


Citizens.

Trick question! :-)


Montblack

[Jim Logajan]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Hamish Reid writes:
>> Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?
>
> Yes.

Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?

[Jim Logajan]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>> Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?
>
> In the context of modern-day America, and this conversation, of
> course.

Then in what country is Lakota a native language?
(You'd think a proponent of the English language would at least use it
properly!)

> Really, I don't care WHAT language is mandated. Hell, let's use
> Sioux, if you want.
>
> But one must be decided upon and adhered to, officially, or America is
> doomed to become Yugoslavia.

If the U.S. government makes more than one language "official" then the
U.S. is more likely "doomed" to become like Switzerland or Canada. (Hint:
What are the official languages of Switzerland and Canada?)

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> Is Puerto Rico an inconvenient counter example to this statement?

I haven't seen any data on Puerto Rico.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Bob Fry writes:

> Most of the Mexican nationals in the US are poor country people from
> northern Mexico, but even they have learned the basics of reading and
> writing their native language.

No, they have not. Most of them are illiterate, in Spanish and in English.

In most countries, in fact, the rural population tends to have low rates of
literacy.

> Do you even know any of these people?

A few. It's hard not to when living in certain parts of the U.S. I also know
college-educated Mexicans who can speak real Spanish, and read and write it as
well (and of course they also read, write, and speak English).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> Plenty of countries without a common language have been around for
> a lot longer than we have.

And just about everyone of them has suffered with interminable internal
conflicts as a result.

> Even the US has never had a common language and
> for part of its history English was a minority language.

Which part?

> You keep insisting that Spanish is a foreign language. In what way is it a
> foreign language that English is not?

It's not the predominant language in the U.S., so it's a foreign language
there.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jim Logajan writes:

> Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?

The country or area in which the natives speak it. But if it is not the
predominant language in the country, it's still a foreign language.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> You must believe that America has become weak indeed if it can no longer
> tolerate what has been the situation since its inception. I suspect that the
> problem is more that we now have better communication in the country, and a
> lot of folks who live in what were relatively isolated, English speaking,
> farming communities are suddenly discovering that the rest of America is not
> like that. And they don't like it.

What is actually happened is that the country has shifted from the notion of
personal responsibility to a deluded ideal of a Great Society in which nobody
need take any responsibility for his own actions or destiny.

Early immigrants adapted by learning the predominant language. Successful
immigrants today still do that. But lazy immigrants, and certain other groups
that have a vested interest in isolating these immigrants, refuse to
assimilate.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jose writes:

> The United States was made great... er... powerful, because all of us
> (at least all of us who matter) are the same. We speak the same
> language, we have the same religion, we have the same moral values, we
> are the same color, and we have the same aspirations. That we are all
> the same allows us to unify in a very deep sense, and saves us from
> unnecessary effort and angst.
>
> Before you spout off calling this all BS, consider how we are reacting now.
>
> People who are different are a crack in that unity. They make others
> uncomfortable. They are a threat to the lifestyle, rights, and control
> that the others (already) have. They require special accomodation, both
> in the legal sense and in the social sense. They require us to be tolerant.
>
> Tolerant of colored skin. Of wrong religious beliefs. Of depraved
> marital ideas. Of incomprehensible tongues. Of idiot politics. Of
> choice of intoxicants. Of ideas and ideals that we ourselves do not
> share, we are required to be tolerant. We are required to share the
> power, the vote, with those who do not deserve it because they are
> different from us. This does not go down well. Americans seem to feel
> that everyone else should conform to our views.

The problem is this: In the past, Americans were American first, and then
Italian or Irish or Spanish or whatever second. Today, they want to be
something else first, and being American is almost something that they're
ashamed of.

One nice thing about living outside the United States is that nobody asks my
nationality if they know I'm American. In the U.S., when someone says "what's
your nationality," they care only about your ancestry. Outside the U.S., when
I say I'm American, that's good enough, for me and for them--and I don't feel
any need to pretend to be anything else. There's nothing wrong with being
American.

Even though I've long been a strong Francophile, when people ask me what I am,
I still say "American," without missing a beat. Yes, I like France, but I'm
not ashamed to be a native citizen of the United States. I always wonder
about people who are about as American as anyone can get and yet say "I'm
Irish," or "I'm African-American" (when they wouldn't even be able to locate
Africa on a map).

> We preach tolerance, but don't practice it very well. How many
> Americans whose native language is Engligh can actually =speak= a second
> language?

I can, but it's rare. But not being able to speak a second language has
nothing to do with being tolerant or intolerant. It's usually just a
practical matter--why speak German if you live in a U.S. State where nobody
speaks the language, and you never travel?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Bob Noel writes:

> How many citizens can only read/write Spanish?

Very few of those who cannot read and write English are able to read and write
Spanish.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> Perhaps one day people will be concerned
> about catering to those pockets of Anglos who refuse to assimilate.

I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.

What really happens is that Spanish speakers who wish to get ahead in the U.S.
learn to read, write, and speak English. Those who confine themselves to
Spanish live in a large but isolated ghetto and fall prey to hucksters and
demagogues who profit from the captive audience created by monolingual
Hispanophones to further their own ends.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jim Logajan]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Jim Logajan writes:
>
>> Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?
>
> The country or area in which the natives speak it. But if it is not the
> predominant language in the country, it's still a foreign language.

There is no definition of "foreign" that makes it synonymous with "non-
dominant". You've simply added a new definition to an existing word for
personal reasons.

[Mxsmanic]

Not as Arrogant as Mxsmanic writes:

> Obviously a forgery. Tony doesn't make spelling mistakes.

He does occasionally edit imperfectly.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[mad8]

On Feb 12, 5:15 pm, Jose > wrote:
> > Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> > in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> > employee to create a foreign-language web page?
>
> Yo no lo encuentro así. ¿Que es su problema?
>
> José
> --
> Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
> follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
> understands this holds the world in his hands.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Chto? Nihuya ne ponimayu po ispanski. Davayte vse govorit' Russkim
translitom?

(that's actually translit as i don't have a cyrillic keyboard)

[Tony]

Puerto Rico is both largely Spanish speaking, part of the United
States, and literate.

Now will you reconsider your statement, or will this stand as another
example when you were demonstrated to have made an incorrect or
misleading statement?

Silly question, we already know the answer.

On Feb 13, 1:43 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Tony writes:
> > Is Puerto Rico an inconvenient counter example to this statement?
>
> I haven't seen any data on Puerto Rico.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Honeck]

> Puerto Rico is both largely Spanish speaking, part of the United
> States, and literate.

Yes, but do Puerto Ricans care what the weather is in the Quad
Cities?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> WTF does this have to do with piloting anyway.

Nothing. Again, you have wandered off into a bitter rant.

This thread is about foreign language weather websites being paid for
with US taxpayer dollars. This all-too-typical government
wastefulness is especially disturbing in an era when we're being
threatened with "user's fees" due to "budget shortfalls".

You can rant all you want about Spanish not being a foreign language
in America, but you will be both irrelevant and wrong.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Ousterhout]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125
>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?


No, not at all.

- John Ousterhout

[Jay Honeck]

> I sincerely doubt that. Yes, English is more dominant now than it was when
> you were born, but now it is losing a little of that dominance. You need to
> get out of Iowa once in awhile. Visit Washington, D.C., or New Mexico, or
> Puerto Rico. We have managed to hold this country together for more than two
> centuries despite the fact that so many languages are spoken in it. I suspect
> it will continue for a few more.

We have never before in our history had a government that REQUIRED
bilingualism. We have always tolerated multiple languages, because we
are *all* immigrants -- but the difference now is that all of us are
being forced to pay for another set of immigrants who are apparently
incapable of comprehending English.

> You must believe that America has become weak indeed if it can no longer
> tolerate what has been the situation since its inception.

See above. We have never had governement-mandated bilingualism.
Ever. What bilingualism existed was like Milwaukee (German) or San
Francisco (Chinese), and was paid for BY THE IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES.

Huge difference.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> This thread is about foreign language weather websites being paid for
> with US taxpayer dollars. [...]
>
> You can rant all you want about Spanish not being a foreign language
> in America, but you will be both irrelevant and wrong.

Uhhh... no. The website was in =Spanish=, so it is relevant whether it
is a foreign language or not. And the word "foreign" doesn't mean
"foreign to Jay". Spanish is not foreign to the United States.

So, such a rant would be is relevant, and right. Not irrelevant and wrong.

Besides, do you know how much it costs to translate the website into
Spanish? I resent the government translating the website into babytalk.
=That's= where the problem lies.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[vincent p. norris]

>I never said I was good at it. I do know the language.

Your posting implies you care about it. If that's the case, wouldn't
you rather be good at it?

Do you try to be a good pilot, or merely know how to fly?

vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

>Vince, crawl back under your rock.
>Daveb

I never crawl out from under my rock to criticize another poster's
language skills unless that poster has first criticized another
person's language skills. That makes him, or her, fair game.

vince norris

[Peter Dohm]

> Puerto Rico is both largely Spanish speaking, part of the United
> States, and literate.
>
> Now will you reconsider your statement, or will this stand as another
> example when you were demonstrated to have made an incorrect or
> misleading statement?
>
> Silly question, we already know the answer.
>
BTW, a similar thing is true in much of Miami Florida.

A high percentage of the Spanish speaking population is highly educated and
highly litterate. They simply have the same problem in English that I have
in Spanish--they started learning it much too late. It is easy to become
fully proficient (and free of obvious accents) in a new language as a child,
diffecult as an adolescent, and frequently unsuccessfull as an adult.

IMHO, this is a rather obvious problem in our education system.

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

> >> Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?
> >
> > The country or area in which the natives speak it. But if it is not the
> > predominant language in the country, it's still a foreign language.
>
> There is no definition of "foreign" that makes it synonymous with "non-
> dominant". You've simply added a new definition to an existing word for
> personal reasons.

According to Wikipedia, Lakota is one of the Sioux languages.

BTW, this is a great example of what irritates me, and possibly others with
regard to MX.

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:56:58 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>> I sincerely doubt that. Yes, English is more dominant now than it was when
>> you were born, but now it is losing a little of that dominance. You need to
>> get out of Iowa once in awhile. Visit Washington, D.C., or New Mexico, or
>> Puerto Rico. We have managed to hold this country together for more than two
>> centuries despite the fact that so many languages are spoken in it. I
>> suspect
>> it will continue for a few more.
>
> We have never before in our history had a government that REQUIRED
> bilingualism. We have always tolerated multiple languages, because we
> are *all* immigrants -- but the difference now is that all of us are
> being forced to pay for another set of immigrants who are apparently
> incapable of comprehending English.
>
>> You must believe that America has become weak indeed if it can no longer
>> tolerate what has been the situation since its inception.
>
> See above. We have never had governement-mandated bilingualism.
> Ever. What bilingualism existed was like Milwaukee (German) or San
> Francisco (Chinese), and was paid for BY THE IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES.
>
> Huge difference.

Well, not really. I think they have always spoken Spanish in Puerto Rico. New
Mexico had a bilingual law in their original constitution. Come on, Jay. This
is KKK stuff you're spouting. And I know you don't believe in that.

This is a freedom issue -- free trade and free men. Walls and restrictions
have never been good for business. The country hasn't had this much
protectionist sentiment since the Smoot/Hawley Tariff Act. We don't want to
revisit that again, do we?

If it helps to keep money flowing smoothly and makes life a little easier for
some people, I really don't have a problem with multi-lingual weather
briefings. Really, Jay, this is a business asset. It makes it easier for
people who don't speak English to visit Iowa, stay at your hotel, eat your
food, and so forth. Are you really telling me you don't have anything to
offer them, that you can't make a buck off this?

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:34:03 -0800, Montblack wrote
(in article >):

> ("Bob Noel" wrote)
>> How many citizens can only read/write Spanish?
>
>
> Citizens.
>
> Trick question! :-)

Not really. As I said, about 14 million, including the Puerto Ricans, all of
whom are US citizens. The same surveys show that of those *citizens* who
speak Spanish at home, another 15 million or so are able to speak some
English, whether it is a few words or fluently.

As for aliens, both legal and illegal, they are hard to count, but most
reliable counts indicate about 11 million who speak only Spanish. That would
be a total of 40 million Spanish speakers in the US.

I am disturbed by the apparent assumption that any Spanish speaker must be an
illegal alien. The vast majority of Spanish speakers in the US are citizens.
A lot of them are descended from people who were living in what is now the
USA long before the Mayflower ever got here. It really is ignorant not to
know that.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:23:02 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>> WTF does this have to do with piloting anyway.
>
> Nothing. Again, you have wandered off into a bitter rant.
>
> This thread is about foreign language weather websites being paid for
> with US taxpayer dollars. This all-too-typical government
> wastefulness is especially disturbing in an era when we're being
> threatened with "user's fees" due to "budget shortfalls".
>
> You can rant all you want about Spanish not being a foreign language
> in America, but you will be both irrelevant and wrong.

But you don't mind using tax dollars to post your Hispanic-bashing, eh?
Because, make no mistake, Usenet was created with tax dollars.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:40:36 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125

>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Nakakapagbabagabag.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:10:40 -0800, Peter Dohm wrote
(in article >):

>>>> Amazing. So in what country is Lakota a native language?
>>>
>>> The country or area in which the natives speak it. But if it is not the
>>> predominant language in the country, it's still a foreign language.
>>
>> There is no definition of "foreign" that makes it synonymous with "non-
>> dominant". You've simply added a new definition to an existing word for
>> personal reasons.
>
> According to Wikipedia, Lakota is one of the Sioux languages.
>
> BTW, this is a great example of what irritates me, and possibly others with
> regard to MX.
>
>

The Filipinos have a word that is perfect for that sort of thing:

Nakakapagbabagabag. The root word is "baba" meaning "down" or "lower." Thus,
getting onto an elevator one might use the query marker, "ba" in this way:
"Ba baba?" (Going down?) and the affirmative reply might be "Baba baba,"
indicating down and down -- emphasis to say yes it really is going down.
Sounds like Bah-BAH, like sheep. :-)

Adding suffixes and prefixes to the root word changes it to a sort of verb
that implies it is a feeling being imposed on you, states that the listener
is doing this, and that the listener is doing it to you. Literally, "You are
doing something that makes me feel a little low," but the intended meaning
is:

"Something you are doing is annoying me."

Heh, heh. Tagalog is very expressive. I like this word. Now, if only I could
pronounce it properly. Filipinos like to say it for no reason other than that
it is a tongue-twister. It is pronounced like this:

nah-KAH-kah-pahg-bah-BAHG-ah-bahg

In Taglish, considered a dialect of English rather than Tagalog, the root
word would be English, but it would have all the Tagalog construction, as in
"Nakakapagsickbagabag," meaning "you are doing something that is making me
throw up," a fine phrase to use on student pilots. :-)

Now you have something to mutter under your breath, and nobody but you and a
Filipino will have any idea what you just said. :-) And you could claim it is
English, because it is!

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[[email protected]]

This is purely anecdotal, but so is everything else on this thread.
Where I used to work in Raleigh, North Carolina, we had a fairly heavy
immigrant Spanish speaking only population that we served. We had in
house 24/7 interpreters (as opposed to translators, there is a
difference I learned), and I asked one of them about the paperwork we
handed out that was in Spanish. Could they even read it? The consensus
was that most of them were illiterate in Spanish, which was eye
opening to me as we had a fair bit of money invested in software that
could spit things out for printing in either language....
Food for thought.

Ryan in Madison

[Hamish Reid]

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> "Hamish Reid" > wrote
>
> > None of that really answers the question: in what sense is Spanish a
> > foreign language in the US? As several people have pointed out, it
> > predates English in these parts by a long way, and has been spoken
> > continuously 'round here by immigrants and native-born citizens alike
> > for all of that time.
>
> Now you are being silly. English is the official language in the US, and is
> the only language of record. That says it all.
>
> Now, it those who refuse to speak it want to sit back in the corner and be
> quiet, fine with me.

So, once again, what makes Spanish a "foreign language" in the US? I'm
guessing that for you the phrase "foreign language" means something like
"non-official language", or "non-dominant language", or "language I
don't speak", or "language some foreigners use", rather than what the
phrase might mean to many of the rest of us, something like "a language
not spoken by the indigenous peoples of a certain area" (to steal a
definition from somewhere else)?

Your definition is, almost by definition, a little odd don't you think?

Hamish (for whom American English is definitely foreign :-))

[Hamish Reid]

In article om>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Would you call Lakota a foreign language in the US?
>
> In the context of modern-day America, and this conversation, of
> course.

Amazing. A language spoken continuously by indigenous US citizens in the
US and that long predates the use of English in the US is "foreign"? As
with Jim M., I'm guessing that for you the phrase "foreign language"
means something like "non-official language", or "non-dominant
language", or "language I don't speak", or "language some foreigners
use", rather than what the phrase might mean to many of the rest of us,
something like "a language not spoken by the indigenous peoples of a
certain area" (to steal a definition from somewhere else)?

Yours is a very ... *odd* ... definition of foreign language, to be sure.

>
> Really, I don't care WHAT language is mandated. Hell, let's use
> Sioux, if you want.

If we used Sioux in the United States for that purpose would it suddenly
make English foreign in the US?

>
> But one must be decided upon and adhered to, officially, or America is
> doomed to become Yugoslavia.

What an ironic thing to say...

Hamish

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:
JH> Yes, but do Puerto Ricans care what the weather is in the Quad
JH> Cities?

Does ANYbody care what the weather is in the Quad Cities?
No.
--
If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of
danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes,
Mister Brave Man, I guess I am a coward.
- Jack Handey

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "mx" == mxsmanic > writes:

mx> C J Campbell writes:
>> Plenty of countries without a common language have been around
>> for a lot longer than we have.

mx> And just about everyone of them has suffered with interminable
mx> internal conflicts as a result.

Of course, having English as a common language prevented our Civil
War. War Between the States. Whatever.
--
Microsoft: "You've got questions. We've got dancing paperclips."

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:

JH> This thread is about foreign language weather websites being
JH> paid for with US taxpayer dollars.

No, Jay, this thread is about your bigotry and small-mindedness which
raises up every few weeks. If you cared about government waste you'd
be raising hell about the incredible waste going on in Iraq, courtesy
of neocons like yourself. Or do you still think that democracy is
going to flower in that miserable place?

Kinda funny, actually, us posters giving you--a history major--the
most basic lessons in history.

--
Instead of mousetraps, what about baby traps? Not to harm the
babies, but just to hold them down until they can be removed?
- Jack Handey

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "CJ" == C J Campbell <C> writes:
CJ> Come on, Jay. This is KKK stuff you're
CJ> spouting. And I know you don't believe in that.

Uh--and how do you know he doesn't believe in that?

Every few weeks Jay posts some utterly off-topic crap here that
invariably reveals his narrow and often bigoted beliefs. It's always
some disadvantaged group (the working poor, hispanics) that's going to
run this country to hell in a handbasket.

Every time I've visited the midwest or south I run into people who are
racists right below the surface. They must think I'm safe to talk to
because within minutes they start blaming any incident in town on the
blacks, or mexicans, or whatever group they don't like. It's
something you rarely encounter in California. Most of our bigots have
moved to Idaho I think. Or maybe Iowa, I dunno.
--
Contrary to what most people say, the most dangerous animal in
the world is not the lion or the tiger or even the elephant. It's
a shark riding on an elephant's back, just trampling and eating
everything they see.
- Jack Handey

[Mxsmanic]

Tony writes:

> Puerto Rico is both largely Spanish speaking, part of the United
> States, and literate.
>
> Now will you reconsider your statement, or will this stand as another
> example when you were demonstrated to have made an incorrect or
> misleading statement?

Puerto Rico does not invalidate my generalization.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Peter Dohm writes:

> A high percentage of the Spanish speaking population is highly educated and
> highly litterate. They simply have the same problem in English that I have
> in Spanish--they started learning it much too late. It is easy to become
> fully proficient (and free of obvious accents) in a new language as a child,
> diffecult as an adolescent, and frequently unsuccessfull as an adult.

That's entirely incorrect. I _teach_ English, and anyone can learn it at any
age ... if he wants to. What you describe is the standard excuse for people
who are too lazy to learn English. And highly educated, highly literate
people usually already speak English, as that is part of an education today
throughout the world.

--
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[Tony]

You left the Triangle for Madison -- how can we trust your judgement
in other things? You probably had to buy a snow blower.




On Feb 13, 10:25 pm, wrote:
> This is purely anecdotal, but so is everything else on this thread.
> Where I used to work in Raleigh, North Carolina, we had a fairly heavy
> immigrant Spanish speaking only population that we served. We had in
> house 24/7 interpreters (as opposed to translators, there is a
> difference I learned), and I asked one of them about the paperwork we
> handed out that was in Spanish. Could they even read it? The consensus
> was that most of them were illiterate in Spanish, which was eye
> opening to me as we had a fair bit of money invested in software that
> could spit things out for printing in either language....
> Food for thought.
>
> Ryan in Madison

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> Well, not really. I think they have always spoken Spanish in Puerto Rico.

So they weren't bilingual, were they?

> This is a freedom issue -- free trade and free men.

Freedom implies responsibility. Those who refuse to take responsibility for
their own destinies cannot complain about a lack of freedom.

> Walls and restrictions have never been good for business.

So a requirement for bilingualism must not be good for business.

> If it helps to keep money flowing smoothly and makes life a little easier for
> some people, I really don't have a problem with multi-lingual weather
> briefings.

It doesn't. People who can't speak English are likely to be illiterate in
Spanish as well, and they aren't likely to have much in the way of PCs or
Internet access.

> It makes it easier for
> people who don't speak English to visit Iowa, stay at your hotel, eat your
> food, and so forth.

No, it doesn't. For that, _everything_ would have to be in Spanish (and
they'd have to be able to read).

> Are you really telling me you don't have anything to
> offer them, that you can't make a buck off this?

The potential revenue is far too small to justify the cost.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Hamish Reid writes:

> A language spoken continuously by indigenous US citizens in the
> US and that long predates the use of English in the US is "foreign"?

Yes.

> As with Jim M., I'm guessing that for you the phrase "foreign language"
> means something like "non-official language", or "non-dominant
> language", or "language I don't speak", or "language some foreigners
> use", rather than what the phrase might mean to many of the rest of us,
> something like "a language not spoken by the indigenous peoples of a
> certain area" (to steal a definition from somewhere else)?

A language not spoken by the mainstream.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> As for aliens, both legal and illegal, they are hard to count, but most
> reliable counts indicate about 11 million who speak only Spanish. That would
> be a total of 40 million Spanish speakers in the US.

Kick the illegal aliens out, and you can reduce that figure by several
million. Although 40 million is quite an exaggeration.

> I am disturbed by the apparent assumption that any Spanish speaker must be an
> illegal alien.

Who has made that assumption?

> The vast majority of Spanish speakers in the US are citizens.
> A lot of them are descended from people who were living in what is now the
> USA long before the Mayflower ever got here. It really is ignorant not to
> know that.

They are pretty ignorant not to speak English. I guess they want to clean
toilets all their lives.

--
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[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Feb 12, 3:40 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&...
>
> (orhttp://tinyurl.com/39s8j5if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Jay
por supuesto pero yo pienso mas gente en estado unidos falta educacion
como otro pieses y lenguas. Esta claro que mas latinos viene aqui y el
mundo es cambiando. No cambio o adjustamente por el individual, el es
muerte en la agua.
Times are changing my friend. I am one of the most adamant in the USA
regarding the use of english as our language but I fear I am ****ing
in the wind. In most of the foreign countries I worked in, I had to
learn at least a modicum of the language to survive. It is indeed
unfortunate that our education system, and by extension, most
Americans, never learn a foreign language well enough to carry on a
simple conversation in anything but english.
To that end, I am making an effort to teach my new son several
languages while he is still in the early stages of speech development
so he'll be able to function in a multi-lingual world.
You should have seen me raising hell in a post office in CA where all
the signs were in spanish. I made enough of a stink that all the signs
were duplicated in english by the end of the week.
I guess it beats being in arabic......or Finnish? <ggg>
Ol Shy & Bashful

[mad8]

> ("Bob Noel" wrote)
> How many citizens can only read/write Spanish?
> Citizens.
> Trick question! :-)


the citizenship test doesn't require being able to speak english. you
can take it in your own language if you pay/provide a translator.

just like in court, they will get a translator if a witness or
defendant doesn't speak english.

(all this i know from being surrounded by Russians who just recently
came here and don't speak enough english to be useful)

[Bill Watson]

No.

The reason may be my mono-lingual abilities within a multi-lingual family.

The US is in no danger of losing english as the primary language. We'll
all look up one day and forget what all the concern was about.

Jay Honeck wrote:
> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125
>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Uhhh... no. The website was in =Spanish=, so it is relevant whether it
> is a foreign language or not. And the word "foreign" doesn't mean
> "foreign to Jay". Spanish is not foreign to the United States.
>
> So, such a rant would be is relevant, and right. Not irrelevant and wrong.

Um, sorry to burst your bubble, Jose, but Spanish is a foreign
language in the United States. Just because an ever-growing segment
of the population speaks it does not make it anything but foreign.

My German ancestors onces dominated the upper midwest, especially
Wisconsin. In Milwaukee, it was completely normal to hear only German
spoken, everywhere. (In fact, I have nieces and nephews currently
attending German-language-only school in Milwaukee.)

That never changed the fact that German was (and still is) a foreign
language in America, and my ancestors learned the native tongue --
English -- as rapidly as possible.

And the US government certainly didn't squander tax money translating
everything into German for them.

> Besides, do you know how much it costs to translate the website into
> Spanish? I resent the government translating the website into babytalk.
> =That's= where the problem lies.

I don't care how much it costs -- *ANY* amount is absurd. If the NWS
has so much extra money laying around that they can afford such silly
expenditures, I'd say we should get the extra money the FAA craves
from their budget.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> But you don't mind using tax dollars to post your Hispanic-bashing, eh?
> Because, make no mistake, Usenet was created with tax dollars.

Now I'm "Hispanic bashing" because I don't want my tax dollars
squandered translating the *weather reports* into Spanish?

Check your temperature, CJ. You may have picked up an unusual strain
of malaria, as you seem to be feverish....

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dylan Smith]

On 2007-02-13, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> But one must be decided upon and adhered to, officially, or America is
> doomed to become Yugoslavia.

A bit like Switzerland (4 languages) hasn't, then?

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Jay Honeck]

> No, Jay, this thread is about your bigotry and small-mindedness which
> raises up every few weeks. If you cared about government waste you'd
> be raising hell about the incredible waste going on in Iraq, courtesy
> of neocons like yourself. Or do you still think that democracy is
> going to flower in that miserable place?

Great job, "Bob". Your quote now stands for all time as the ultimate
example of Usenet hypocricy.

Imagine: In the very same sentence, you accuse me of bigotry toward
(presumably) Hispanics *AND* then go on to display your own prejudice
and bigotry toward Iraqis.

Normally we don't see that kind of tightly packaged intellectual
incongruity from someone who can form a complete sentence.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> mx> And just about everyone of them has suffered with interminable
> mx> internal conflicts as a result.
>
> Of course, having English as a common language prevented our Civil
> War. War Between the States. Whatever.

That's hilarious!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Hamish (for whom American English is definitely foreign :-))

So, let me get this straight:

You're saying that Spanish is *not* a foreign language in the United
States, simply because a large portion of people here are originally
from Spanish-speaking countries?

By that definition, German is not a foreign language in Iowa and
Wisconsin. Neither is Italian. Or Irish.

Or have you come up with some intellectually gymnastic limitation on
your theory, like "it's only not a foreign language if the speakers
have not been here more than 'x' generations..."?

Honestly, you guys are hilarious!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> Um, sorry to burst your bubble, Jose, but Spanish is a foreign
> language in the United States.

Um, sorry to burst your bubble, Jay, but Spanish is not a foreign
language in the United States.

> and my ancestors learned the native tongue --
> English -- as rapidly as possible...

Make me laugh. English is most assuredly =not= the native tongue of
this country.

> I don't care how much it costs -- *ANY* amount is absurd.

.... and how do you decide the validity of that argument? After all, it
can be applied to GA too. "Any amount of taxpayer dollars in support of
pleasure flying is absurd."

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[ktbr]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>But you don't mind using tax dollars to post your Hispanic-bashing, eh?
>>Because, make no mistake, Usenet was created with tax dollars.
>
>
> Now I'm "Hispanic bashing" because I don't want my tax dollars
> squandered translating the *weather reports* into Spanish?
>
> Check your temperature, CJ. You may have picked up an unusual strain
> of malaria, as you seem to be feverish....

He may be infected with a variant (or mutant) strain of 'political
correctness virus' that's been going around the whole country.

[Jay Honeck]

> Could they even read it? The consensus
> was that most of them were illiterate in Spanish, which was eye
> opening to me as we had a fair bit of money invested in software that
> could spit things out for printing in either language....
> Food for thought.

Whether they could read it or not is completely irrelevant to
government bureaucrats. They will always find a "need" and go for it,
full blast, with no regard to cost, whether it's useful or not.
Common sense is never applied, at any level, because in their world
our taxes are merely "pretend money".
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Dylan Smith writes:

> A bit like Switzerland (4 languages) hasn't, then?

Unfortunately, the peace and calm of Switzerland for much of its history is
atypical for countries with multiple "official" or important languages.
Belgium, Yugoslavia, and Canada are much more representative of the kinds of
problems that arise. Sometimes it's just a constant undercurrent of friction
and resentment, sometimes it's violence. And it always costs a lot of money
and handicaps economic growth.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

mad8 writes:

> the citizenship test doesn't require being able to speak english. you
> can take it in your own language if you pay/provide a translator.

In the United States, perhaps. In many countries, a test of competency in the
national language is _part_ of the citizenship test. If you don't speak the
language, you don't get citizenship, period.

> (all this i know from being surrounded by Russians who just recently
> came here and don't speak enough english to be useful)

They don't speak enough English to be useful, but they want to be citizens?
Hmm. If they are too lazy or stupid to learn English, how do they plan to
support themselves? Or do they expect the state to do that?

--
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[ktbr]

Bob Fry wrote:
>>>>>>"JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:
>
>
> JH> This thread is about foreign language weather websites being
> JH> paid for with US taxpayer dollars.
>
> No, Jay, this thread is about your bigotry and small-mindedness which
> raises up every few weeks. If you cared about government waste you'd
> be raising hell about the incredible waste going on in Iraq, courtesy
> of neocons like yourself. Or do you still think that democracy is
> going to flower in that miserable place?

Fry - you are so far out that you are actually in a tangential universe.

>
> Kinda funny, actually, us posters giving you--a history major--the
> most basic lessons in history.
>

You guys (folks with your mentality) will soon be totally back in power
so it will be a real education to see what fantastic 'leadership' occurs.

[mad8]

On Feb 14, 10:46 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > Hamish (for whom American English is definitely foreign :-))
>
> So, let me get this straight:
>
> You're saying that Spanish is *not* a foreign language in the United
> States, simply because a large portion of people here are originally
> from Spanish-speaking countries?
>
> By that definition, German is not a foreign language in Iowa and
> Wisconsin. Neither is Italian. Or Irish.
>
> Or have you come up with some intellectually gymnastic limitation on
> your theory, like "it's only not a foreign language if the speakers
> have not been here more than 'x' generations..."?
>
> Honestly, you guys are hilarious!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

and russian is still a foreign language in parts of NYC, Philly,
Chicago, etc. (you may get more done in brooklyn speaking russian than
english, but nobody is trying to have everything in russian...)

[Jay Honeck]

> A bit like Switzerland (4 languages) hasn't, then?

The Swiss have always been the exception to the rule, in that regard.

Just don't ask them about their finances during the Nazi era.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Ol Shy & Bashful writes:

> Times are changing my friend. I am one of the most adamant in the USA
> regarding the use of english as our language but I fear I am ****ing
> in the wind. In most of the foreign countries I worked in, I had to
> learn at least a modicum of the language to survive. It is indeed
> unfortunate that our education system, and by extension, most
> Americans, never learn a foreign language well enough to carry on a
> simple conversation in anything but english.

It's much more unfortunate that immigrants and natives never bother to learn
English to begin with, and then the state panders to them to maintain them as
parasites on society, instead of useful contributors.

> I guess it beats being in arabic......or Finnish? <ggg>

How many foreign languages are public documents printed in in Saudi Arabia?

--
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[mad8]

On Feb 14, 10:55 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Dylan Smith writes:
> > A bit like Switzerland (4 languages) hasn't, then?
>
> Unfortunately, the peace and calm of Switzerland for much of its history is
> atypical for countries with multiple "official" or important languages.
> Belgium, Yugoslavia, and Canada are much more representative of the kinds of
> problems that arise. Sometimes it's just a constant undercurrent of friction
> and resentment, sometimes it's violence. And it always costs a lot of money
> and handicaps economic growth.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I believe India has 300some languages...

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, not really. I think they have always spoken Spanish in Puerto Rico. New
> Mexico had a bilingual law in their original constitution. Come on, Jay. This
> is KKK stuff you're spouting. And I know you don't believe in that.

Is this some new variation on the "Hitler Rule"?

Once you start accusing someone of belonging to the KKK, the
opportunity for intelligent discussion is over.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BDS[_2_]]

"Jose" > wrote
> > Um, sorry to burst your bubble, Jose, but Spanish is a foreign
> > language in the United States.
>
> Um, sorry to burst your bubble, Jay, but Spanish is not a foreign
> language in the United States.

Foreign: Of, characteristic of, or from a place or country other than the
one being considered.

Since neither English nor Spanish originated in the US, both could
technically be called foreign. That said, since 82% of the US population
speak English, you could argue that English is "characteristic of" the USA,
and therefore, not foreign. However, since only 12% of the population speak
Spanish you couldn't really say that it is "characteristic of" the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States

BDS

[Jay Honeck]

> The US is in no danger of losing english as the primary language. We'll
> all look up one day and forget what all the concern was about.

I truly hope you're right, Bill.

In the meantime, I guess we can stop worrying about the National
Weather Service's budget, as they are clearly flush with money.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mxsmanic]

Jose writes:

> ... and how do you decide the validity of that argument? After all, it
> can be applied to GA too. "Any amount of taxpayer dollars in support of
> pleasure flying is absurd."

That time will probably come. Unfortunately, the same logic does not seem to
be applied to support of foreign languages for people too stupid to learn
English.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Is this some new variation on the "Hitler Rule"?

I believe the formal designation is Godwin's Law, named after Mike Godwin of
_Wired_ Magazine, who developed the law in 1990.

> Once you start accusing someone of belonging to the KKK, the
> opportunity for intelligent discussion is over.

Godwin's Law holds that the probability of a comparison of someone or
something to Nazis or Hitler approaches one as a discussion continues over
time.

It happens because people, in their zeal to present their debate opponents as
unconditionally evil, grab for the first concept of "total evil" that comes to
mind, and that is often the Nazis or Hitler, about whom few people have
anything less than bad to say. In recent years, child molesters and
pedophiles have sometimes been mentioned for the same purpose.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

mad8 writes:

> I believe India has 300some languages...

And one language for business and success. The other languages are
disappearing rapidly, with a handful of exceptions.

--
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[[email protected]]

On Feb 14, 4:53 am, "Tony" > wrote:
> You left the Triangle for Madison -- how can we trust your judgement
> in other things? You probably had to buy a snow blower.


OUCH, but touche!
Yes I did, I'm originally from WI. Loved the weather down there in NC
but it wasn't "home". Bought my first airplane, an Ercoupe, and kept
it at Horace Williams (IGX) in Chapel Hill. Had a K-6 with the North
Carolina Soaring Association.
But got offered a job at my alma mater that involved some flying and
couldn't pass it up.

No, I don't own a snow blower!

[ktbr]

Hamish Reid wrote:
>
> So, once again, what makes Spanish a "foreign language" in the US?

Well, for one thing the Declaration of Indepence was written in English
and all the other great documents that define our politics and unique
American perspective on freedom are in English.

So basically, in order to really understand what it is to be an
"American" and the unique perspective on freedoms the founding fathers
had in mind back then you sort of have to speak an be able to read and
understand English.

But in this Politicially Correct environment we live in today who
cares.... they don't really teach history anymore in public school... we
might 'offend' someone.

[mad8]

On Feb 14, 10:57 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> mad8 writes:
> > the citizenship test doesn't require being able to speak english. you
> > can take it in your own language if you pay/provide a translator.
>
> In the United States, perhaps. In many countries, a test of competency in the
> national language is _part_ of the citizenship test. If you don't speak the
> language, you don't get citizenship, period.

in this thread we were discussing the US last time I checked (AFAICS
the thread is about weather in spanish and the opinions of posters
about it)...


> > (all this i know from being surrounded by Russians who just recently
> > came here and don't speak enough english to be useful)
>
> They don't speak enough English to be useful, but they want to be citizens?
> Hmm. If they are too lazy or stupid to learn English, how do they plan to
> support themselves? Or do they expect the state to do that?

The ability to learn a language isn't indicative of a person's
industriousness or intelligence. My father for example has a phd in
laser optics (which IS indicative of at least hard work) and is very
well employed here. It took him about 10 years to become (more or
less) fluent in english, and he still has quite a bit of an accent
(everyone understands him, but he sounds distinctly foreign). He took
the test in English, but if it had been a few years earlier he
wouldn't have been able to. He wasn't out to make russian an official
language of the US, he was just trying to get by with the abilities he
had. You wouldn't deny a deaf person assistance taking the citizenship
test, so why would you deny a non-native-speaker?
Learning english isn't an instant process (even for babies). pretty
much all who are able to, eventually learn english. Those who don't,
usually don't get much further than the construction business.
also, none of them are elligible for any government assistance until
they become citizens. Therefore, they have to make something of
themselves in the 5-10 years it takes to naturalize in the US.

on that note, go download a INS simulator and play it. It's much
easier than actually going through the immigration process.

[ktbr]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Once you start accusing someone of belonging to the KKK, the
> opportunity for intelligent discussion is over.
> --

Welcome to the new politically correct world of 'neo_ism' where nothing
is help in more disdain than issagreeing with the thinking of the
'enlightened'.

[mad8]

to get back on the forum topic.
ATC is in english in the US, and nobody seems to request accomodations
for non-english speaking pilots (hell i think the FAR stipulates that
the pilot must speak english). But if i'm flying into Germany, for
example, would I be speaking to their ATC in german or english? What
about Mexico? What if i'm a mexican pilot would it be english or
spanish?

[Jose]

> But if i'm flying into Germany, for
> example, would I be speaking to their ATC in german or english? What
> about Mexico? What if i'm a mexican pilot would it be english or
> spanish?

I believe it is in English, worldwide. I've never flown in a foreign
country, but my understanding is that ATC is supposed to be in English,
even for the natives.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Don Tuite]

On 14 Feb 2007 09:53:11 -0800, "mad8" > wrote:

>to get back on the forum topic.
>ATC is in english in the US, and nobody seems to request accomodations
>for non-english speaking pilots (hell i think the FAR stipulates that
>the pilot must speak english). But if i'm flying into Germany, for
>example, would I be speaking to their ATC in german or english? What
>about Mexico? What if i'm a mexican pilot would it be english or
>spanish?

A softball question? English is the ICAO international language of
aviation. ATC communications everywhere are in English.

Delicious irony, no?

Don

[Tony]

Flying on someone else's nickle AND working for UW is probably an
acceptable reason for leaving NC. If the offer included season tickets
to the football games it would have been a no brainer, but was
withdrawal from ACC basketball painful? Is there some form of 12 step
program to help?

You do know the Heels lost to the Hokies last night, don't you, or are
you so deep into Big 10 sports it didn't matter?

We flew commercial to Palm Beach last month, the return trip was via
Charlotte. We had a short layover there, just enough time to get a
bite to eat. We were served, beside our sandwiches, a deep fried
breaded dill pickle. We knew we were almost home!






On Feb 14, 11:32 am, wrote:
> On Feb 14, 4:53 am, "Tony" > wrote:
>
> > You left the Triangle for Madison -- how can we trust your judgement
> > in other things? You probably had to buy a snow blower.
>
> OUCH, but touche!
> Yes I did, I'm originally from WI. Loved the weather down there in NC
> but it wasn't "home". Bought my first airplane, an Ercoupe, and kept
> it at Horace Williams (IGX) in Chapel Hill. Had a K-6 with the North
> Carolina Soaring Association.
> But got offered a job at my alma mater that involved some flying and
> couldn't pass it up.
>
> No, I don't own a snow blower!

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:52:34 -0800, ktbr wrote
(in article >):

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> But you don't mind using tax dollars to post your Hispanic-bashing, eh?
>>> Because, make no mistake, Usenet was created with tax dollars.
>>
>>
>> Now I'm "Hispanic bashing" because I don't want my tax dollars
>> squandered translating the *weather reports* into Spanish?
>>
>> Check your temperature, CJ. You may have picked up an unusual strain
>> of malaria, as you seem to be feverish....
>
> He may be infected with a variant (or mutant) strain of 'political
> correctness virus' that's been going around the whole country.

No, just the dengue. :-)

Seriously, one of the last things I ever expected to be called was
"politically correct." Next thing you know someone will call me a Democrat
and them's fightin' words.

No, I'm in it for the money. I had my heart surgically removed 30 years ago
when I started being a landlord. Didn't need it anymore. I think having signs
and other government services in Spanish is good for business, good for
trade, and good for freedom.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:04:32 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>> Well, not really. I think they have always spoken Spanish in Puerto Rico.
>> New
>> Mexico had a bilingual law in their original constitution. Come on, Jay.
>> This
>> is KKK stuff you're spouting. And I know you don't believe in that.
>
> Is this some new variation on the "Hitler Rule"?
>
> Once you start accusing someone of belonging to the KKK, the
> opportunity for intelligent discussion is over.

Now, Jay, read it again. I did not say that you were a member of the KKK; I
think you would be one of the last guys on earth to associate with that
crowd. That is why I am surprised at some of the stuff you have been saying.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:50:26 -0800, mad8 wrote
(in article . com>):

>> ("Bob Noel" wrote)
>> How many citizens can only read/write Spanish?
>> Citizens.
>> Trick question! :-)
>
>
> the citizenship test doesn't require being able to speak english. you
> can take it in your own language if you pay/provide a translator.
>
> just like in court, they will get a translator if a witness or
> defendant doesn't speak english.
>
> (all this i know from being surrounded by Russians who just recently
> came here and don't speak enough english to be useful)
>

Besides which, there is no language requirement to be born in this country,
eh? Most Spanish speaking citizens were born here. A lot of their ancestors
were here before Plymouth Rock. That is why I think referring to them and
their language as 'foreign' seems so strange.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Flydive]

Jose wrote:
>> But if i'm flying into Germany, for
>> example, would I be speaking to their ATC in german or english? What
>> about Mexico? What if i'm a mexican pilot would it be english or
>> spanish?
>
> I believe it is in English, worldwide. I've never flown in a foreign
> country, but my understanding is that ATC is supposed to be in English,
> even for the natives.
>
> Jose
English is the main language in aviation, but local language is accepted
in most Countries

[ktbr]

BDS wrote:
>
> Since neither English nor Spanish originated in the US, both could
> technically be called foreign. That said, since 82% of the US population
> speak English, you could argue that English is "characteristic of" the USA,
> and therefore, not foreign. However, since only 12% of the population speak
> Spanish you couldn't really say that it is "characteristic of" the US.
>

There you go again... trying to inject logic into a political discussion.

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:08:21 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>> The US is in no danger of losing english as the primary language. We'll
>> all look up one day and forget what all the concern was about.
>
> I truly hope you're right, Bill.
>
> In the meantime, I guess we can stop worrying about the National
> Weather Service's budget, as they are clearly flush with money.

An interesting question, at that. How much money are we really talking about
here? They have some guy, probably, already on the payroll, or maybe even a
computer translator, that translates the site into Spanish. I bet it doesn't
cost all that much compared to their whole budget. They probably spend more
on wastebaskets every month.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Sylvain]

mad8 wrote:

> the citizenship test doesn't require being able to speak english. you
> can take it in your own language if you pay/provide a translator.

bull****. I just went through the process myself (hey, I have been
a citizen for almost a month now! :-)) and the only exceptions are
for people older than a given age (I don't remember the details, but
you can find it all in 8 CFR) -- but I think it is over 65.

that said, the level of competency required in English as well as
the questions on history/civics were quite disappointing (I had
prepared for much harder stuff); keep in mind though that
very few natural born and US public school educated citizen
would be unable to pass that test.

--Sylvain

[Sylvain]

Jose wrote:

> I believe it is in English, worldwide. I've never flown in a foreign
> country, but my understanding is that ATC is supposed to be in English,
> even for the natives.

well, brace yourself for a surprise then when you eventually venture
outside...

--Sylvain

[Sylvain]

Sylvain wrote:

> very few natural born and US public school educated citizen
> would be unable to pass that test.

you see, I even caught myself making an embarrassing error
in English :-) I meant: 'very few ... would be able...'
of course.

--Sylvain

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Besides, do you know how much it costs to translate the website into
>>Spanish? I resent the government translating the website into babytalk.
>> =That's= where the problem lies.
>
>
> I don't care how much it costs -- *ANY* amount is absurd. If the NWS
> has so much extra money laying around that they can afford such silly
> expenditures, I'd say we should get the extra money the FAA craves
> from their budget.

And where do you stop? There are well over 100 languages in the world,
and this isn't counting the many dialects around the world. If the
government supports Spanish translations, then everyone else will want
their favorite language provided. Where do you draw the line?

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Jose wrote:

>> Um, sorry to burst your bubble, Jose, but Spanish is a foreign
>> language in the United States.
>
>
> Um, sorry to burst your bubble, Jay, but Spanish is not a foreign
> language in the United States.

It is by any reasonable definition of foreign language. What definition
are you using? And please provide a reference to the definition from a
generally recognized and legitimate source. Not just your own
home-grown definition.

Matt

[ktbr]

C J Campbell wrote:
> I think having signs
> and other government services in Spanish is good for business, good for
> trade, and good for freedom.
>

It may be good for business, but in the long term it is not good for
societal cohesion. This country struggles harder every year to find
things to bind together its many factions... a pretty much impossible task.

I don't believe it is any good for freedom either. It makes things more
complicated and increases the requirements for more government. An why
stop at just Spanish? Why print signs in ALL the languages that are
spoken in the United States? That would now include everything from
Arabic to Polynesian.

[Matt Whiting]

C J Campbell wrote:

> No, I'm in it for the money. I had my heart surgically removed 30 years ago
> when I started being a landlord. Didn't need it anymore. I think having signs
> and other government services in Spanish is good for business, good for
> trade, and good for freedom.

How about Chinese? Japanese? Korean? German? French? Hindu?


Matt

[Jim Logajan]

Matt Whiting > wrote:
> Where do you draw the line?

At the point where the group is so small it has no political influence.
That's the reality, not a statement of my preference in all cases.

[Matt Whiting]

Sylvain wrote:

> Jose wrote:
>
>
>>I believe it is in English, worldwide. I've never flown in a foreign
>>country, but my understanding is that ATC is supposed to be in English,
>>even for the natives.
>
>
> well, brace yourself for a surprise then when you eventually venture
> outside...
>
> --Sylvain

Why, all real countries have ATC who are English capable. France
probably being an exception. :-)

When I flew into St. Petersburg, the Russian controller's English wasn't
great, but I could make out most of it. I think I understood it better
though than did the two German pilots of the Lufthansa Airbus in which I
was riding jump seat.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Sylvain wrote:

> mad8 wrote:
>
>
>>the citizenship test doesn't require being able to speak english. you
>>can take it in your own language if you pay/provide a translator.
>
>
> bull****. I just went through the process myself (hey, I have been
> a citizen for almost a month now! :-)) and the only exceptions are
> for people older than a given age (I don't remember the details, but
> you can find it all in 8 CFR) -- but I think it is over 65.
>
> that said, the level of competency required in English as well as
> the questions on history/civics were quite disappointing (I had
> prepared for much harder stuff); keep in mind though that
> very few natural born and US public school educated citizen
> would be unable to pass that test.

Yes, that is the ultimate irony.

Matt

[ktbr]

C J Campbell wrote:
> An interesting question, at that. How much money are we really talking about
> here? They have some guy, probably, already on the payroll, or maybe even a
> computer translator, that translates the site into Spanish. I bet it doesn't
> cost all that much compared to their whole budget. They probably spend more
> on wastebaskets every month.
>

Wait until someone who speaks Lithuanian files a lawsuit.

[Matt Whiting]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

> On Feb 12, 3:40 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>>http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&...
>>
>>(orhttp://tinyurl.com/39s8j5if that URL wraps...)
>>
>>Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
>>in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
>>employee to create a foreign-language web page?
>>--
>>Jay Honeck
>>Iowa City, IA
>>Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>"Your Aviation Destination"
>
>
> Jay
> por supuesto pero yo pienso mas gente en estado unidos falta educacion
> como otro pieses y lenguas. Esta claro que mas latinos viene aqui y el
> mundo es cambiando. No cambio o adjustamente por el individual, el es
> muerte en la agua.
> Times are changing my friend. I am one of the most adamant in the USA
> regarding the use of english as our language but I fear I am ****ing
> in the wind. In most of the foreign countries I worked in, I had to
> learn at least a modicum of the language to survive. It is indeed
> unfortunate that our education system, and by extension, most
> Americans, never learn a foreign language well enough to carry on a
> simple conversation in anything but english.
> To that end, I am making an effort to teach my new son several
> languages while he is still in the early stages of speech development
> so he'll be able to function in a multi-lingual world.
> You should have seen me raising hell in a post office in CA where all
> the signs were in spanish. I made enough of a stink that all the signs
> were duplicated in english by the end of the week.
> I guess it beats being in arabic......or Finnish? <ggg>

Just wait. Pretty soon our signs will look like the instruction sheets
for most appliances. Three pages of instructions that take 30 pages to
print in 10 different languages.

Matt

[ktbr]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> What really happens is that Spanish speakers who wish to get ahead in the U.S.
> learn to read, write, and speak English. Those who confine themselves to
> Spanish live in a large but isolated ghetto and fall prey to hucksters and
> demagogues who profit from the captive audience created by monolingual
> Hispanophones to further their own ends.
>

You continue to impress me with your rather accurate grasp of American
politics... especially the part about some politicians actually
exploiting certain socio-economic groups... sucking up to them and
ultimately playing them against others for their own political (and
financial) gain.

[Mxsmanic]

mad8 writes:

> in this thread we were discussing the US last time I checked ...

And comparing it to other countries.

> The ability to learn a language isn't indicative of a person's
> industriousness or intelligence.

The ability to learn languages is closely correlated with general
intelligence. The success one obtains in attempting to do so is mostly linked
to motivation.

> My father for example has a phd in laser optics (which IS indicative
> of at least hard work) and is very well employed here. It took him
> about 10 years to become (more or less) fluent in english, and he
> still has quite a bit of an accent (everyone understands him, but
> he sounds distinctly foreign).

He probably has very little motivation to learn English. Motivation is more
important than aptitude in learning a language, even though intelligence is a
key factor in determining aptitude.

> You wouldn't deny a deaf person assistance taking the citizenship
> test, so why would you deny a non-native-speaker?

As long as the deaf person speaks American sign language.

Deaf people don't speak English because they can't. Non-deaf people don't
speak English because they don't wish to. Big difference.

> Learning english isn't an instant process (even for babies). pretty
> much all who are able to, eventually learn english. Those who don't,
> usually don't get much further than the construction business.
> also, none of them are elligible for any government assistance until
> they become citizens. Therefore, they have to make something of
> themselves in the 5-10 years it takes to naturalize in the US.

Good.

> on that note, go download a INS simulator and play it. It's much
> easier than actually going through the immigration process.

I'm already have my citizenship.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

mad8 writes:

> ATC is in english in the US, and nobody seems to request accomodations
> for non-english speaking pilots (hell i think the FAR stipulates that
> the pilot must speak english).

Yes, English is _mandatory_ for pilots in the U.S.

> But if i'm flying into Germany, for example, would I be speaking
> to their ATC in german or english?

Your choice. Their ATC is supposed to be bilingual.

> What about Mexico?

See above.

> What if i'm a mexican pilot would it be english or
> spanish?

In a Spanish-speaking country, you'd have the choice of English or Spanish.
In any other country, you'd be required to speak English.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> well, brace yourself for a surprise then when you eventually venture
> outside...

Such as where?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> Most Spanish speaking citizens were born here.

But most of those also speak English, unless they've led a very bizarre and
isolated existence.

> A lot of their ancestors were here before Plymouth Rock.

A lot? How many?

> That is why I think referring to them and
> their language as 'foreign' seems so strange.

Why is there so much pressure to put things in Spanish, and so little to put
things in aboriginal American languages, such as Navajo?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> Sylvain wrote:
>
> > very few natural born and US public school educated citizen
> > would be unable to pass that test.
>
> you see, I even caught myself making an embarrassing error
> in English :-) I meant: 'very few ... would be able...'
> of course.

The English is correct. You simply didn't write what you intended (although
citizen should have an s on it, but that may be a typo).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

C J Campbell writes:

> An interesting question, at that. How much money are we really talking about
> here? They have some guy, probably, already on the payroll, or maybe even a
> computer translator, that translates the site into Spanish. I bet it doesn't
> cost all that much compared to their whole budget. They probably spend more
> on wastebaskets every month.

It is also interesting to note that many translations into Spanish are
abysmal, since many Spanish speakers in the U.S. are incompetent in Spanish
and yet attempt to prepare translations.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jose]

> If the government supports Spanish translations, then everyone else will want their favorite language provided. Where do you draw the line?

Dunno. Depends how much it costs. Google seems to do well translating
nearly everything, and totally for free.

> It is by any reasonable definition of foreign language. What definition are you using? And please provide a reference to the definition from a generally recognized and legitimate source. Not just your own home-grown definition.

That statement belies your lack of understanding of what English is. It
is not a language driven by authority, such as Spanish or French. Words
mean what people mean them to mean. It is quite evident in context what
each of us is saying.

What's your definition of a foreign language? (I don't need any
authoritative references).

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mxsmanic]

Matt Whiting writes:

> Why, all real countries have ATC who are English capable. France
> probably being an exception. :-)

I've heard that the nickname some people have for French ATC is the "kess kee
dee," because whenever someone tries to talk to French ATC in English, one can
hear the controller whispering to his colleage, "Qu'est-ce qu'il dit?" (which
means "What did he say?" although it's pronounced "kess kee dee").

> When I flew into St. Petersburg, the Russian controller's English wasn't
> great, but I could make out most of it. I think I understood it better
> though than did the two German pilots of the Lufthansa Airbus in which I
> was riding jump seat.

When one person is a foreign speaker with an accent and the other is a foreign
listener, errors are compounded. I suspect a lot is simply not understood,
and pilots and ATC just guess at what they've heard (and are lucky enough to
usually get it right). See Tenerife for an example of what can happen when
guessing doesn't work.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Sylvain]

ktbr wrote:

> I don't believe it is any good for freedom either. It makes things more
> complicated and increases the requirements for more government.

you probably think this way for having grown up in a mostly
unilingual society and cannot comprehend that things can work
just fine otherwise; I grew up in a country of fewer than 6 million
people; yet manages to have 4 national languages (3 of which have
official status, i.e., used for all official documents -- the
fourth, spoken by fewer than a few tens of thousands counts five
main dialects, and the main official language counts more dialects
than one might care to count, but I digress :-) -- and this, without
counting broken-english has its fifth neither national nor official
yet widely used language. Furthermore, it is one of the most cosmopolitan
country there is, with a very high proportion of (exotic languages
speaking) foreigners. And you know what? it has been working just fine
this way for longer than USA has been in existence. And there are quite
a few other countries like that with more than one official languages
actually. Surely if tiny countries can pull this off, USA might
have a shot at it too?

--Sylvain

[Don Tuite]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:54:36 -0800, Sylvain > wrote:

>ktbr wrote:
>
>> I don't believe it is any good for freedom either. It makes things more
>> complicated and increases the requirements for more government.
>
>you probably think this way for having grown up in a mostly
>unilingual society and cannot comprehend that things can work
>just fine otherwise; I grew up in a country of fewer than 6 million
>people; yet manages to have 4 national languages (3 of which have
>official status, i.e., used for all official documents -- the
>fourth, spoken by fewer than a few tens of thousands counts five
>main dialects, and the main official language counts more dialects
>than one might care to count, but I digress :-) -- and this, without
>counting broken-english has its fifth neither national nor official
>yet widely used language. Furthermore, it is one of the most cosmopolitan
>country there is, with a very high proportion of (exotic languages
>speaking) foreigners. And you know what? it has been working just fine
>this way for longer than USA has been in existence. And there are quite
>a few other countries like that with more than one official languages
>actually. Surely if tiny countries can pull this off, USA might
>have a shot at it too?
>
With a little tension, no? My primary flying instructor, from
Lausanne, had a few amusing anecdotes about having to speak German at
engineering school in Zurich. "Cracking Coke" (as in distilled coal)
was how he translated the francophone students' description of
conversing in German.

(His Karma was to spend most of his career working for Swissair, in
Zurich and to be married to a Dane.)

Don

[LWG]

I think what Jay says makes a lot of sense.

The essence of America was that its immigrant population willingly abandoned
many or most aspects of the culture it left. My great grandmother told me
the story many times about her first weeks in this country. She went to
school, but couldn't speak a word of English. For a while every day, the
teacher had her stand on a desk and sing songs in German. There were no
translators, interpreters or bilingual instructors. She learned English,
and spoke it for the next 90 years. Was she proud of the culture she left?
of course. But this was her home now, and her heart and allegiance belonged
to this country from the day she stepped off the boat. THAT is what is
missing with today's immigrants, and that's why there is some resentment.

Like me, most Americans have close ties to immigrants, whether is is this
generation, or one recently past. But in my family, I never heard the
outright hatred for American culture and values that I hear from some of
today's immigrants. Laws compelling bilingualism will increase the divide
between the groups, and increase the hostility.


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
e.com...
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:04:32 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
> (in article . com>):
>
>>> Well, not really. I think they have always spoken Spanish in Puerto
>>> Rico.
>>> New
>>> Mexico had a bilingual law in their original constitution. Come on, Jay.
>>> This
>>> is KKK stuff you're spouting. And I know you don't believe in that.
>>
>> Is this some new variation on the "Hitler Rule"?
>>
>> Once you start accusing someone of belonging to the KKK, the
>> opportunity for intelligent discussion is over.
>
> Now, Jay, read it again. I did not say that you were a member of the KKK;
> I
> think you would be one of the last guys on earth to associate with that
> crowd. That is why I am surprised at some of the stuff you have been
> saying.
>
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor
>

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Sylvain > posted:

> ktbr wrote:
>
>> I don't believe it is any good for freedom either. It makes things
>> more complicated and increases the requirements for more government.
>
> you probably think this way for having grown up in a mostly
> unilingual society and cannot comprehend that things can work
> just fine otherwise; I grew up in a country of fewer than 6 million
> people; yet manages to have 4 national languages (3 of which have
> official status, i.e., used for all official documents -- the
> fourth, spoken by fewer than a few tens of thousands counts five
> main dialects, and the main official language counts more dialects
> than one might care to count, but I digress :-) -- and this, without
> counting broken-english has its fifth neither national nor official
> yet widely used language. Furthermore, it is one of the most
> cosmopolitan country there is, with a very high proportion of
> (exotic languages speaking) foreigners. And you know what? it has
> been working just fine this way for longer than USA has been in
> existence. And there are quite a few other countries like that with
> more than one official languages actually. Surely if tiny countries
> can pull this off, USA might
> have a shot at it too?
>
One might dream that such might be true, but it is highly unlikely. One
can't have an attitude of priveledge if one wants to meaningfully
communicate with others. Unfortunately, I think it may take generations
for most U.S. citizens to understand this.

Neil

[ktbr]

LWG wrote:
> I think what Jay says makes a lot of sense.
>
> The essence of America was that its immigrant population willingly abandoned
> many or most aspects of the culture it left. My great grandmother told me
> the story many times about her first weeks in this country. She went to
> school, but couldn't speak a word of English. For a while every day, the
> teacher had her stand on a desk and sing songs in German. There were no
> translators, interpreters or bilingual instructors. She learned English,
> and spoke it for the next 90 years. Was she proud of the culture she left?
> of course. But this was her home now, and her heart and allegiance belonged
> to this country from the day she stepped off the boat. THAT is what is
> missing with today's immigrants, and that's why there is some resentment.
>

Exactly sir. And we have brought this upon ourselves by lowering
standards, refusing to protect our borders (perish the thought if we
might offend someone) or even firmly and proudly defending American
values and sovereinty! To add insult to injury we have certain so
called 'leaders' out there bashing the country here and overseas.

The illegal immigrants that are here evidently have such disdain for the
United States that they openly make demands for amnesty all the while
expecting to receive all of the benefits provided by hardworking
taxpayers of this country and with no prejudice whatsoever.

[Morgans]

"LWG" > wrote

> The essence of America was that its immigrant population willingly
> abandoned many or most aspects of the culture it left. My great
> grandmother told me the story many times about her first weeks in this
> country. She went to school, but couldn't speak a word of English. For a
> while every day, the teacher had her stand on a desk and sing songs in
> German. There were no translators, interpreters or bilingual instructors.
> She learned English, and spoke it for the next 90 years. Was she proud of
> the culture she left? of course. But this was her home now, and her heart
> and allegiance belonged to this country from the day she stepped off the
> boat. THAT is what is missing with today's immigrants, and that's why
> there is some resentment.

Well said.

As a country united with common language and values, we thrive.

Divided, we fall.
--
Jim in NC

[ktbr]

Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>> that said, the level of competency required in English as well as the
>> questions on history/civics were quite disappointing (I had
>> prepared for much harder stuff); keep in mind though that
>> very few natural born and US public school educated citizen would be
>> unable to pass that test.
>
>
> Yes, that is the ultimate irony.
>

Something obtained too cheaply or with little effort is little valued.

[Jose]

> Three pages of instructions that take 30 pages to print in 10 different languages.

We already have that. No wait - that's legalese - the official language
of Congress.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

ktbr wrote:


>
> The illegal immigrants that are here evidently have such disdain for
> the United States that they openly make demands for amnesty all the
> while expecting to receive all of the benefits provided by hardworking
> taxpayers of this country and with no prejudice whatsoever.

Just for the record you do realize that MANY illegals pay taxes in the US
don't you. I don't think anyone would say they don't work hard. If they
didn't they wouldn't be in such demand.

[Jose]

> But in my family, I never heard the
> outright hatred for American culture and values that I hear from some of
> today's immigrants.

Perhaps America's culture and values have changed?

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[ktbr]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> Just for the record you do realize that MANY illegals pay taxes in the US
> don't you. I don't think anyone would say they don't work hard. If they
> didn't they wouldn't be in such demand.
>
>

Where did I say illegals do not work hard? Stop being juvenile and
changing the focus of the matter in discussion. Of course most illegals
work hard, after all, they are here taking advantage of the
opportunities available for those who work hard.

They pay taxes where they have to but they avoid it whenever they can,
after all, they are not invested in this country in any way. A lot of
money is sent back to Mexico in the end. Do they think anything of the
consequenses they may have caused to a person from whom they may have
stolen an identity? After all, they disregarded any laws when they came
here so why should they start being concerned with them now?

What about insurance, or even a drivers license? Why worry when you are
here illegally the worst that can happen is you get sent back.

The probelm is, as always in such cases, is that when your life in this
country starts out with deception what real impetus is there to change
that? The answer is none.

[ktbr]

Jose wrote:
>> But in my family, I never heard the outright hatred for American
>> culture and values that I hear from some of today's immigrants.
>
>
> Perhaps America's culture and values have changed?
>

If that is true, please think real hard and answer the question
yourself. If you can true be objective and analytical you will come up
with a fairly logical answer.

[Jose]

>> Perhaps America's culture and values have changed?
> If that is true, please think real hard and answer the question yourself. If you can true be objective and analytical you will come up with a fairly logical answer.

I have an answer, but you won't like it.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sylvain]

LWG wrote:

> The essence of America was that its immigrant population willingly
> abandoned many or most aspects of the culture it left.

is it? my understanding is that the only thing you abandon is
your allegiance to foreign powers. Each immigrant brings something
with the idea that the result is greater than the simple sum of
its parts. That's what I sign up for.

--Sylvain

[Mxsmanic]

LWG writes:

> Like me, most Americans have close ties to immigrants, whether is is this
> generation, or one recently past. But in my family, I never heard the
> outright hatred for American culture and values that I hear from some of
> today's immigrants. Laws compelling bilingualism will increase the divide
> between the groups, and increase the hostility.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what some people want, and those are the people
behind bilingual initiatives. It is not intended to work in the best interest
of the immigrants at all.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> Just for the record you do realize that MANY illegals pay taxes in the US
> don't you.

Which ones? All the ones I've encountered paid nothing to anyone, although
they certain received money. This is especially true for the illegals who are
not Hispanic. I don't think anyone would say they don't work hard. If they
didn't they wouldn't be in such demand.

They don't necessarily work hard, but they work cheaply, and they can't
complain about working conditions. They are not suitable for skilled work,
though.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

ktbr writes:

> If that is true, please think real hard and answer the question
> yourself. If you can true be objective and analytical you will come up
> with a fairly logical answer.

A general erosion of personal responsibility, which is typical of all
democracies as they age.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> is it? my understanding is that the only thing you abandon is
> your allegiance to foreign powers. Each immigrant brings something
> with the idea that the result is greater than the simple sum of
> its parts. That's what I sign up for.

Most immigrants are looking for a better life, so they don't have much to
bring, and there isn't much that they want to bring.

You cannot have the best of the old country _and_ the best of the new.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

ktbr writes:

> Something obtained too cheaply or with little effort is little valued.

Or perhaps things that can be obtained cheaply or with little effort tend to
attract people who don't understand the concept of value.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[kontiki]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> A general erosion of personal responsibility, which is typical of all
> democracies as they age.
>

That is part of the answer.

[kontiki]

Jose wrote:

>>> Perhaps America's culture and values have changed?
>>
>> If that is true, please think real hard and answer the question
>> yourself. If you can true be objective and analytical you will come up
>> with a fairly logical answer.
>
>
> I have an answer, but you won't like it.
>

Yes, you have "an" answer. The reason you think I won't like it is
because you know it is probably not objective, thoughtful or un-biased.
I am an engineer by training and trade so I like things that are
accurate, objective, honest and correct.

[kontiki]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Sylvain writes:
>
>
>>is it? my understanding is that the only thing you abandon is
>>your allegiance to foreign powers. Each immigrant brings something
>>with the idea that the result is greater than the simple sum of
>>its parts. That's what I sign up for.
>
>
> Most immigrants are looking for a better life, so they don't have much to
> bring, and there isn't much that they want to bring.
>
> You cannot have the best of the old country _and_ the best of the new.
>

[kontiki]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> ktbr writes:
>
>
>>Something obtained too cheaply or with little effort is little valued.
>
>
> Or perhaps things that can be obtained cheaply or with little effort tend to
> attract people who don't understand the concept of value.
>

That may also be true.... I am reminded me of the classic movie movie
starrring Humphry Bogart called "The Treasure of Sierra Madre".

If you've seen it you'll know what I mean. If you haven't seen it then
you should.

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:10:14 -0800, Matt Whiting wrote
(in article >):

> C J Campbell wrote:
>
>> No, I'm in it for the money. I had my heart surgically removed 30 years ago
>> when I started being a landlord. Didn't need it anymore. I think having
>> signs
>> and other government services in Spanish is good for business, good for
>> trade, and good for freedom.
>
> How about Chinese? Japanese? Korean? German? French? Hindu?
>

Yeah, of course, if there are enough speakers of those languages in the area
to make it economically worthwhile.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:01:08 -0800, LWG wrote
(in article >):

> I think what Jay says makes a lot of sense.
>
> The essence of America was that its immigrant population willingly abandoned
> many or most aspects of the culture it left.

Well, there were a lot of reasons for that. Many Americans left Europe to get
away from all the feuding. The Scots may all have spoken Gaelic, but they
didn't get along with each other. :-)

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:01:08 -0800, LWG wrote
(in article >):

> I think what Jay says makes a lot of sense.
>
> The essence of America was that its immigrant population willingly abandoned
> many or most aspects of the culture it left.

However, the wisecrack aside, I think what you are missing is that a lot of
these Spanish speakers are not immigrants. They were born here. They have
lived here for hundreds of years, speaking nothing but Spanish. They were
here before the Mayflower. We have a whole territory of nothing but Spanish
speaking people. We have at least a few states where Spanish speaking people
are, if not the majority, at least a very large part of the population.

But, if you just want to expel Puerto Rico, New Mexico, Southern California,
and parts of Arizona and Texas and give it all back to Mexico just so you can
call those people immigrants, well then you might have a point.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:17:34 -0800, ktbr wrote
(in article >):

> C J Campbell wrote:
>> An interesting question, at that. How much money are we really talking
>> about
>> here? They have some guy, probably, already on the payroll, or maybe even a
>> computer translator, that translates the site into Spanish. I bet it
>> doesn't
>> cost all that much compared to their whole budget. They probably spend more
>> on wastebaskets every month.
>>
>
> Wait until someone who speaks Lithuanian files a lawsuit.

I would say that describes a problem with the legal system instead of with
'immigrants' who aren't really immigrants.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Matt Whiting]

C J Campbell wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:10:14 -0800, Matt Whiting wrote
> (in article >):
>
>
>>C J Campbell wrote:
>>
>>
>>>No, I'm in it for the money. I had my heart surgically removed 30 years ago
>>>when I started being a landlord. Didn't need it anymore. I think having
>>>signs
>>>and other government services in Spanish is good for business, good for
>>>trade, and good for freedom.
>>
>>How about Chinese? Japanese? Korean? German? French? Hindu?
>>
>
>
> Yeah, of course, if there are enough speakers of those languages in the area
> to make it economically worthwhile.
>

What is the economic advantage of offering weather reports in additional
languages? Who decide what constitutes "enough speakers?"

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

C J Campbell wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:01:08 -0800, LWG wrote
> (in article >):
>
>
>>I think what Jay says makes a lot of sense.
>>
>>The essence of America was that its immigrant population willingly abandoned
>>many or most aspects of the culture it left.
>
>
> However, the wisecrack aside, I think what you are missing is that a lot of
> these Spanish speakers are not immigrants. They were born here. They have
> lived here for hundreds of years, speaking nothing but Spanish. They were
> here before the Mayflower. We have a whole territory of nothing but Spanish
> speaking people. We have at least a few states where Spanish speaking people
> are, if not the majority, at least a very large part of the population.
>
> But, if you just want to expel Puerto Rico, New Mexico, Southern California,
> and parts of Arizona and Texas and give it all back to Mexico just so you can
> call those people immigrants, well then you might have a point.
>

Well, that is a very compelling proposition! :-)

Matt

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:16:37 -0800, Matt Whiting wrote
(in article >):

> C J Campbell wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:01:08 -0800, LWG wrote
>> (in article >):
>>
>>
>>> I think what Jay says makes a lot of sense.
>>>
>>> The essence of America was that its immigrant population willingly
>>> abandoned
>>> many or most aspects of the culture it left.
>>
>>
>> However, the wisecrack aside, I think what you are missing is that a lot of
>> these Spanish speakers are not immigrants. They were born here. They have
>> lived here for hundreds of years, speaking nothing but Spanish. They were
>> here before the Mayflower. We have a whole territory of nothing but Spanish
>> speaking people. We have at least a few states where Spanish speaking
>> people
>> are, if not the majority, at least a very large part of the population.
>>
>> But, if you just want to expel Puerto Rico, New Mexico, Southern
>> California,
>> and parts of Arizona and Texas and give it all back to Mexico just so you
>> can
>> call those people immigrants, well then you might have a point.
>>
>
> Well, that is a very compelling proposition! :-)
>
> Matt

Only if you get to throw Washington, DC into the deal. We declare that a
Spanish speaking territory (because it largely is) and give it to Mexico. The
only requirement is that anyone serving in office or working there in any
capacity, paid or unpaid, or who has ever worked there, will be declared a
resident of Mexico and be deported from the US as an undocumented alien.

Once we are rid of them, we can turn on the telephone sanitizers,
hairdressers, marketing people, and other useless members of society like a
pack of dogs. Maybe even send them to another planet. :-)

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:15:22 -0800, Matt Whiting wrote
(in article >):

> C J Campbell wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:10:14 -0800, Matt Whiting wrote
>> (in article >):
>>
>>
>>> C J Campbell wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> No, I'm in it for the money. I had my heart surgically removed 30 years
>>>> ago
>>>> when I started being a landlord. Didn't need it anymore. I think having
>>>> signs
>>>> and other government services in Spanish is good for business, good for
>>>> trade, and good for freedom.
>>>
>>> How about Chinese? Japanese? Korean? German? French? Hindu?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, of course, if there are enough speakers of those languages in the
>> area
>> to make it economically worthwhile.
>>
>
> What is the economic advantage of offering weather reports in additional
> languages? Who decide what constitutes "enough speakers?"
>

You know, that question could be asked of every single decision made by
government.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Hamish Reid]

In article m>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Hamish (for whom American English is definitely foreign :-))
>
> So, let me get this straight:
>
> You're saying that Spanish is *not* a foreign language in the United
> States, simply because a large portion of people here are originally
> from Spanish-speaking countries?

I'm not saying anything of the sort (forgive me for asking, but is
English is a foreign language for you? That might explain a few things
about this exchange...).

Let's review your stance. You've said that one of the indigenous native
languages of the United States -- Lakota -- is a foreign language in the
US. You've claimed that Spanish, the native (first, and, in some cases,
only) language for millions of natural-born citizens in this country, a
language whose native use predates that of English in large parts of the
US, and whose history in many parts of this country as a first language
is long and unbroken, is a foreign language in the US.

So what *do* you mean by "foreign language"? Do you mean "not the
official language"? If so, why not say so (while keeping in mind that
the US doesn't have an official language in the same sense that, say,
France does, or the Soviet Union did)? Do you mean "language spoken by
foreigners or immigrants?" If so, why not say so (while bearing in mind
that I'm both a foreigner and an immigrant here, and since English is my
native language, by those rules that would make English a foreign
language here...)? Do you mean "dominant language"? If so, why not say
so (but does that mean you believe that Scots Gaelic is a foreign
language in the United Kingdom, or that the hundreds of Aboriginal
languages in Australia are foreign languages there)?

As a native English speaker and a long-time resident of the United
States, your usage baffles me -- maybe you can spell out precisely what
makes a language "foreign" in your mind, and how your definition
compares to more traditional, conservative definitions that talk in
terms of (for example) languages not spoken by the indigenous people of
a certain place.

>
> By that definition, German is not a foreign language in Iowa and
> Wisconsin. Neither is Italian. Or Irish.

If you say so (I certainly haven't said so).

> Or have you come up with some intellectually gymnastic limitation on
> your theory, like "it's only not a foreign language if the speakers
> have not been here more than 'x' generations..."?

The gymnastics seem to be yours -- but again, before I get too impolite
about your reading skills, is English perhaps a foreign language for
you? That might excuse your strawman argument in the paragraph
immediately above.

>
> Honestly, you guys are hilarious!

Well, I wouldn't laugh too hard -- the joke seems to be on the person
who believes that a country's indigenous languages are somehow foreign
in that country...

Hamish

[Sylvain]

C J Campbell wrote:

> Once we are rid of them, we can turn on the telephone sanitizers,
> hairdressers, marketing people, and other useless members of society like
> a pack of dogs. Maybe even send them to another planet. :-)

....but then won't we risk dying from infections caught from dirty
telephones?

--Sylvain (who studied the classics of English literature as part
my effort to integrate smoothly into the local culture)

[LWG]

No, they don't. Assuming they are not paid in cash, an illegal family of
four would have to make more than $25,000.00 per year before they paid the
first dime in income taxes. Before that, they would be entitled to an
earned income tax CREDIT, which other taxpayer pay to them for working.
Meanwhile, we are paying $20,000 per year to educate their two children, and
possibly another $5,000 to deliver their next one. If they are injured on
the job, we are paying disability benefits. If they require medical
treatment, we are paying that as well.

Sales taxes, you say? Direct transfers back to Mexico is the second largest
source of money for the Mexican economy, right after oil, and before
tourism. So tell me, at 5% of what's left over, how much of their earnings
is going to our economy?

The popularity of illegal aliens is blindingly simple: if I am an employer,
and I have to pay a citizen $12 per hour to do a job, and I can get an
illegal to do the same thing for $9, and there are no adverse consequences
to picking the illegal, which one will I choose?

Our immigration disaster is the result of a very ugly confluence of liberal
democratic politics with right wing immoral business interests. It is
certainly a more profound threat to our nation than terrorism.


> Just for the record you do realize that MANY illegals pay taxes in the US
> don't you. I don't think anyone would say they don't work hard. If they
> didn't they wouldn't be in such demand.

[LWG]

Exactly! So let's start right now, with this decision. We're behind in our
work.

You may remember my favorite government story. I think in Washington state
there was a regulation that for their mental health patients, a translator
had to be available for every patient for whom English was not their
language of choice. It came to the attention of the administration of the
mental hospitals that a number of their patients spoke Klingon. That's
right -- Klingon. It has a syntax and all the attributes of a language.
Soooo, Washington state started advertising for Klingon interpreters for
their mental hospitals. They didn't go so far as hiring one, and I'm not
really sure why.

>> What is the economic advantage of offering weather reports in additional
>> languages? Who decide what constitutes "enough speakers?"
>>
>
> You know, that question could be asked of every single decision made by
> government.

[LWG]

I thought we missed the opportunity of a lifetime when the Berlin Wall came
down. Why couldn't we have shipped it -- brick by brick -- to the US. We
could have rebuilt it just inside the inner loop of I-495. Everyone
benefits!


> Only if you get to throw Washington, DC into the deal. We declare that a
> Spanish speaking territory (because it largely is) and give it to Mexico.
> The
> only requirement is that anyone serving in office or working there in any
> capacity, paid or unpaid, or who has ever worked there, will be declared a
> resident of Mexico and be deported from the US as an undocumented alien.

[Jim Logajan]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?

Look folks, what Jay is saying here[1] isn't about Spanish, its about
government excess. Plenty of government abuse of our money is out there
and we shouldn't act like sheep when it happens. Unfortunately I think
Jay missed the target when he used this example.

[1] "What Jay is trying to say" is my deliberate play on the following
dialogue from the movie "The Right Stuff":

"[An argument rages, primarily between Shepard, Glenn, Carpenter and
Cooper]

Scott Carpenter: John's right! Now, whether we like it or not, we're
public figures. Whether we deserve it or not, people are going to look up
to us. We have got a tremendous responsibility here.

Alan Shepard: You cannot tell a pilot what he's doing when he's not
flying!

[Argument continues]

Gus Grissom: Wait a minute, wait a minute!

[turns Glenn toward him]

Gus Grissom: You've got it all wrong, the issue here ain't pussy. The
issue here is monkey.

John Glenn: What?

Gus Grissom: Us. We are the monkey.

Deke Slayton: What Gus is saying is that we're missing the point. What
Gus is saying is that we all heard the rumors that they want to send a
monkey up first. Well, none of us wants to think that they're gonna send
a monkey up to do a man's work. But what Gus is saying is that what
they're trying to do to us is send a man up to do a monkey's work. Us, a
bunch of college-trained chimpanzees!

Gus Grissom: ****in' A, bubba.

Deke Slayton: Alright, so what Gus is saying is that we've got to change
things around here. He's saying that we are pilots. And we know more
about what we need to fly this thing than anybody else. So what we have
to do is to alter the experiment. And what that comes down to is who is
gonna control this thing from here on out.

Gordon Cooper: What Gus is saying here is that we've got to stick
together on this deal."

Shamelessly copied and pasted from:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086197/quotes

[Jay Honeck]

> What's your definition of a foreign language? (I don't need any
> authoritative references).

That's quite a statement, Jose. Who appointed you "Keeper of All
Foreign Language "Knowledge"?

Face it -- your argument, while obviously heartfelt, is untenable.
Bail out now, to fight another day...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So what *do* you mean by "foreign language"?

My apologies. You have gone to extreme lengths to explain your
ignorance of the situation, thanks. I didn't realize that the concept
of a "foreign language" needed to be defined, but here goes:

A "foreign language" in the context of the United States of America
(and in the context of this discussion) is a language that is not
spoken by the majority of people since the country's inception.

Since every major founding document, every major newspaper, and (to
bring this discussion into the 21st century) every major American
website was/is published in English, we consider every language other
than English to be "foreign".

For further clarification, please refer to the definition of the word
"foreign", available in any of the free on-line dictionaries.

Your example of such indigenous languages as Lakota and Spanish are
not relevant to this discussion, as they pre-date the creation of the
United States. They were never considered to be official languages of
the United States, and may therefore be defined as "foreign", both in
fact and in the context of this discussion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> They pay taxes where they have to but they avoid it whenever they can,
> after all, they are not invested in this country in any way. A lot of
> money is sent back to Mexico in the end.

All of our local roofing contractors have been forced to switch to
(illegal) Mexican "employees". If you talk to them at a bar, they
will all tell you that they love it -- AND hate it.

Here's why:

1. The Mexicans work extremely hard -- much harder than their native
American counterparts, most of whom take the job simply because they
are incapable of anything better.

2. The Mexicans work extremely cheaply, and for cash. No taxes to
report, no paperwork to fill out.

3. Every business owner I speak with says that they feel terrible
about the situation, and wish the illegals would go home -- but if one
of them hires illegals, they must ALL hire them, or get put out of
business by the low-ball bids of the other guys.

The bad thing is that the police, the politicians, and the people
building houses all know about it -- and do nothing. The laws on the
books simply mean nothing to these people.

And roofing contractors are the tip of the iceberg. We are the ONLY
hotel in Iowa City that will not (and I mean we REFUSE) to hire
illegal aliens as housekeepers. We currently have two native-born
Americans, and one LEGAL Mexican housekeeper, and they are all
wonderful.

If the government would do more raids on businesses that knowingly
hire illegals (like the Swift Meat Packing raids last month), the
problem would resolve itself almost overnight. No jobs would mean no
illegals, and we wouldn't need to build border fences, or hire more
border guards.

But there is far too much money going to the politicians for that to
happen in any effective way, much in the same way that we can't stop
the illegal drug trade. The politicians are in bed with the corrupt
business owners who hire these people -- and that's not about to
change.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I am an engineer by training and trade so I like things that are
> accurate, objective, honest and correct.

What the heck are you doing *here*??

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> You cannot have the best of the old country _and_ the best of the new.

Now there I disagree.

My German heritage meshes nicely with Mary's Hungarian background. We
enjoy great beer, wine, potatoes, and goulash, as well as oompah bands
and polkas!

In my opinion, the ONLY parts of our heritage that have survived five
generations in the United States have been the best ones. All the
horrible European problems that our ancestors fought so hard to escape
have been left behind, while the good parts -- the food, the song, the
festivals -- remain.

In the end, we are both very proud of our heritage, but we are first
and foremost AMERICANS. Our great-grandparents didn't risk their
lives coming here so that we could screw that up.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I just went through the process myself (hey, I have been
> a citizen for almost a month now! :-))

Well, let me be the first here to offer you a hearty
"Congratulations!"

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> An interesting question, at that. How much money are we really talking about
> here? They have some guy, probably, already on the payroll, or maybe even a
> computer translator, that translates the site into Spanish. I bet it doesn't
> cost all that much compared to their whole budget. They probably spend more
> on wastebaskets every month.

Your statement shows a remarkably optimistic (okay, ignorant) view of
how our government bureaucracy functions. Here's how it really goes
down:

1. A new Congressional mandate rolls into the National Weather Service
office: ALL DOCUMENTS MUST NOW BE PUBLISHED IN SPANISH.
2. Head of NWS decrees "Thou shalt translate all weather forecasts
into Spanish."
3. NWS meterologists hold meeting (in Las Vegas, in January) to
discuss the issue. All look at one another blankly -- Who amongst us
speaks Spanish? Answer: No one.
4. Report goes back up the chain of command: No one here can predict
the weather in Spanish!"
5. Head of NWS makes a request for additional bilingual staff,
preferably meteorologists. No one even considers a translator.
6. Government bureacrat in another department evaluates request for
more staff, and determines that this must be a Pay Level 13 job, since
it requires a degree in meteorology. Pay Level 13 starts at $34.00
per hour. Starting pay is $70K per year.
7. Spanish-speaking meteorologists are scarce as hen's teeth, and the
search committee fails to find the required 25 new positions.
Therefore, the pay is increased to Pay Level 18, or $56.00 per hour.
Starting pay is now $116K per year.
8. Suddenly, Spanish-speaking weather forecasters are coming out of
the woodwork. The NWS hires 25 new meteorologists, all of them
Spanish-speaking.
9. The Meteorologist's Union files a grievance, since these new hires
are now making more than the weather forecasters who have been there
since TelStar was launched.
10. To placate the union, all NWS forecasters are raised to Pay Level
18.
11. The NWS is now in a budget crunch, and goes to Congress pleading
for more money. No one tells Congress that the budget crunch was
caused by their mandate to translate everything into Spanish.

....And the beat goes on...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[James Sleeman]

On Feb 13, 10:40 am, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&...
>
> (orhttp://tinyurl.com/39s8j5if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?

I do not find it disturbing, for three reasons...
1. I don't live in the US nor am I an expatriate.
2. I understand that Spanish is and will continue to be a reasonably
widely spoken language in many parts of the US. It would I expect be
part of the directive of the NWS that it should make weather
information available to as many people as practical, and that means
Spanish is a good idea.
3. As a web developer (programmer, not design), I can tell you that
provided the site was designed right (and from the outside I'd say
it's likely) the translation is a piece of cake, and even the weather
reports linked to are likely automatically translated as they appear
to be in a largely fixed format and easily translated even via a
simple lookup table. As such, the extra cost involved was likely only
at the stage of developing the website, and probably very minimal
(we're talking only a couple of days extra work), I imagine there is
little or no ongoing translation work required.

[Jose]

> Yes, you have "an" answer. The reason you think I won't like it is because you know it is probably not objective, thoughtful or un-biased. I am an engineer by training and trade so I like things that are accurate, objective, honest and correct.

What's the question? America's culture and values =have= changed - some
for the better, some for the worse. Culture and values are not
something that can be measured, like air pressure or altitude. People's
reactions to culture and values are not governed by simple laws like
F=ma (except in the degenerate case).

Objective and analytical people disagree with each other - simply being
objective and ayalytical will not guarantee an answer you cotton to.

Just consider for a moment the role of unions 100 years ago, and their
present incarnation. There is a significant adverse change in attitude
right there. Consider the degree of litigiousness - I suppose that is
amenable to measurement and objective analysis (though it is not true
that "all things are equal" - some adjustment is necessary to isolate
the causes).

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Martin Hotze]

Flydive schrieb:


> English is the main language in aviation, but local language is accepted
> in most Countries


English, French and Russian are the official ICAO languages, IIRC.

In most places in Germany you us English, only on some smaller airfields
you speak German. Same goes for France, I believe.

#m
--
I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

[Jose]

>>What's your definition of a foreign language? (I don't need any
>> authoritative references).
>
> That's quite a statement, Jose. Who appointed you "Keeper of All
> Foreign Language "Knowledge"?

1: It was a question, not a statement. Learn the difference. :)

2: English (unlike French or Spanish) is not derived from authoritive
references, which is why I don't need one. I'm just looking for the
meaning of the word as used by the speaker. That's what communication
is about.

> Face it -- your argument, while obviously heartfelt, is untenable.

Translation: Jay disagrees.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> A "foreign language" in the context of the United States of America
> (and in the context of this discussion) is a language that is not
> spoken by the majority of people since the country's inception.

Fair enough. (Note - this isn't the only reasonable definition, but
I'll use it in this context)

> Since every major founding document, every major newspaper, and (to
> bring this discussion into the 21st century) every major American
> website was/is published in English, we consider every language other
> than English to be "foreign".

1: =You= consider... not =We= consider...

2: The statement does =not= follow, in any case, from the definition
you gave above, which does not refer to founding documents or websites.
It refers to "not spoken by the majority...". I'm sure you can recall
examples of countries where the language of official documents is
different from the language commonly spoken by the majority of the
population. In fact, early England comes to mind.

> Your example of such indigenous languages as Lakota and Spanish

It wasn't my example.

> They were never considered to be official languages of
> the United States, and may therefore be defined as "foreign", both in
> fact and in the context of this discussion.

Again, this does not follow from the definition you gave above, which
does not refer to official languages, only to "not spoken by the
majority..." (which, btw, leaves open the question of whether "not
spoken" means "not commonly spoken" or "not able to be spoken")

You get to define the words, but then it is upon you to use those words
according to your own definition.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> 8. Suddenly, Spanish-speaking weather forecasters are coming out of
> the woodwork. The NWS hires 25 new meteorologists, all of them
> Spanish-speaking.

You missed a step. These Spanish-speaking meteorolgists demand
instruments calibrated in Spanish. A procurement offer goes out to all
instrument makers for instruments that can measure Spanish rain, Spainsh
snow, etc... :)

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[ktbr]

Jose wrote:
>
> 1: =You= consider... not =We= consider...
>

Who is this "we"... you have a frog in your pocket?

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:45:55 -0800, LWG wrote
(in article >):

> Exactly! So let's start right now, with this decision. We're behind in our
> work.
>
> You may remember my favorite government story. I think in Washington state
> there was a regulation that for their mental health patients, a translator
> had to be available for every patient for whom English was not their
> language of choice. It came to the attention of the administration of the
> mental hospitals that a number of their patients spoke Klingon. That's
> right -- Klingon. It has a syntax and all the attributes of a language.
> Soooo, Washington state started advertising for Klingon interpreters for
> their mental hospitals. They didn't go so far as hiring one, and I'm not
> really sure why.

An urban legend, see Snopes for that one.

What, before a sniper takes out some suicide bomber in Baghdad, you want to
put it up to a vote of 300 million people, with lots of time for debate?
Oops, he missed. Shall he fire again? Have another debate and take another
vote.

Just how far do you think the voters should micro-manage government?


>
>>> What is the economic advantage of offering weather reports in additional
>>> languages? Who decide what constitutes "enough speakers?"
>>>
>>
>> You know, that question could be asked of every single decision made by
>> government.
>
>



--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Jim Logajan]

Jose > wrote:
> A procurement offer goes out to all
> instrument makers for instruments that can measure Spanish rain,
....

The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain.

The planes in Spain fly mainly in the rain.
(Dubious aviation reference added to keep this post topical.)

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:02:02 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):


>
> If the government would do more raids on businesses that knowingly
> hire illegals (like the Swift Meat Packing raids last month),

That was an egregious miscarriage of justice. Swift was engaging in a
volunteer program to help Immigration find illegal aliens. Then when Swift
found some illegal aliens and duly reported them, Immigration raided the
corporation, closed it down for several days, and threatened fines and prison
terms.

Bet that encourages the rest of corporate America to look for illegals, eh?


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:49:57 -0800, LWG wrote
(in article >):

> I thought we missed the opportunity of a lifetime when the Berlin Wall came
> down. Why couldn't we have shipped it -- brick by brick -- to the US.

They practically did. Lots of people have Berlin wall paperweights.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[C J Campbell]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:40:36 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick_spa.php?site=DVN&map.x=121&map.y=125

>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/39s8j5 if that URL wraps...)
>
> Does anyone else find it disturbing that the National Weather Service
> in the United States is paying out taxpayer money to a government
> employee to create a foreign-language web page?

Well, it appears to be a 50/50 split here. Some of us think it is a waste of
money; the rest of us do not. I cannot think of a single decision made by
anyone, in government or out, that everybody will be 100% happy with.

Beyond a certain level, the NWS has to be able to manage its operations as it
sees best. It is never going to make either Jay Honeck or me happy all of the
time -- and both of us are going to be unhappy with different things. And we
are not going to put the content of individual web pages up for a national
referendum.

But, if enough people complain about this horrible waste of money, then there
will be a Congressional investigation, which only costs about $20 million a
day...

So, I guess the question then becomes, just how far do you think people
should go in trying to micro-manage the Weather Service? I have no doubt that
people still call them up to complain about the weather.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Steve Foley]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> But, if enough people complain about this horrible waste of money, then
> there
> will be a Congressional investigation, which only costs about $20 million
> a
> day...

I saw a job posting on craigslist for an offshore (posted in Peru) Systems
Manager that paid $5/hour. Maybe that's all they paid to have the website
translated.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, C J Campbell > posted:

> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:02:02 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
> (in article . com>):
>
>
>>
>> If the government would do more raids on businesses that knowingly
>> hire illegals (like the Swift Meat Packing raids last month),
>
> That was an egregious miscarriage of justice. Swift was engaging in a
> volunteer program to help Immigration find illegal aliens. Then when
> Swift found some illegal aliens and duly reported them, Immigration
> raided the corporation, closed it down for several days, and
> threatened fines and prison terms.
>
> Bet that encourages the rest of corporate America to look for
> illegals, eh?
>
Perhaps it better sheds light on the government's *real* position
regarding illegals.

Neil

[Jay Honeck]

> That was an egregious miscarriage of justice. Swift was engaging in a
> volunteer program to help Immigration find illegal aliens.

????

That's hilarious! Swift -- along with every other meat-packing plant
in Iowa -- were willingly (and knowingly) hiring illegal aliens. They
have been for years.

Swift should be shut down, not just fined. THAT would stop illegal
immigration...in about a week.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[ktbr]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> That was an egregious miscarriage of justice. Swift was engaging in a
> volunteer program to help Immigration find illegal aliens. Then when Swift
> found some illegal aliens and duly reported them, Immigration raided the
> corporation, closed it down for several days, and threatened fines and prison
> terms.

Sorta like that Congressman that was on film stuffing cash down his
pants when offered by an Arab "Sheik" in a sting operation some years
back. His defense was that he was conducting his own 'investigation'.

[C J Campbell]

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:07:11 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote
(in article . com>):

>> That was an egregious miscarriage of justice. Swift was engaging in a
>> volunteer program to help Immigration find illegal aliens.
>
> ????
>
> That's hilarious! Swift -- along with every other meat-packing plant
> in Iowa -- were willingly (and knowingly) hiring illegal aliens. They
> have been for years.

I guess you know more about it than the lawyers and "The Wall Street
Journal."

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Flydive]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> Flydive schrieb:
>
>
>> English is the main language in aviation, but local language is accepted
>> in most Countries
>
>
> English, French and Russian are the official ICAO languages, IIRC.

Yes, but English remains the mainly used language.

> In most places in Germany you us English, only on some smaller airfields
> you speak German. Same goes for France, I believe.
>
> #m

In Italy, France, Switzerland, Greece, Spain, etc, you often hear the
local language spoken at major airports and enroute, even by airliners.

[Jay Honeck]

> I guess you know more about it than the lawyers and "The Wall Street
> Journal."

Now we're supposed to believe the lawyers? What did you *think* they
would say?

We fly to Marshalltown, Iowa (home of the Swift plant) a lot.
Everyone in Iowa knew that they have been hiring -- and, in fact,
recruiting -- illegals for years.

Whatever happens to Swift, they had coming -- times ten. They have
been gaming the system for a long time, and we -- the taxpayers --
have been paying for it, in the form of schools and social services.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[kontiki]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> But, if enough people complain about this horrible waste of money, then there
> will be a Congressional investigation, which only costs about $20 million a
> day...
>
Yeah... <sigh> I guess you're right... lets just all hand over our
paychecks to Hillary since she's gonna get it all anyway.

I guess government really does know best... <sigh>

> So, I guess the question then becomes, just how far do you think people
> should go in trying to micro-manage the Weather Service? I have no doubt that
> people still call them up to complain about the weather.
>

Oh, don't worry... now that 'global warming' has been declared the most
threating thing man has ever encountered on this planet in all history
(Al Gore inveted history) government will be micro-managing things for a
long time to come.

[C J Campbell]

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:09:38 -0800, kontiki wrote
(in article >):

> C J Campbell wrote:
>>
>> But, if enough people complain about this horrible waste of money, then
>> there
>> will be a Congressional investigation, which only costs about $20 million a
>> day...
>>
> Yeah... <sigh> I guess you're right... lets just all hand over our
> paychecks to Hillary since she's gonna get it all anyway.
>
> I guess government really does know best... <sigh>
>
>> So, I guess the question then becomes, just how far do you think people
>> should go in trying to micro-manage the Weather Service? I have no doubt
>> that
>> people still call them up to complain about the weather.
>>
>
> Oh, don't worry... now that 'global warming' has been declared the most
> threating thing man has ever encountered on this planet in all history
> (Al Gore inveted history) government will be micro-managing things for a
> long time to come.
>

That's the spirit!

If you are not depressed it is probably because you don't understand the
situation. :-)

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Hamish Reid]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > So what *do* you mean by "foreign language"?
>
> My apologies. You have gone to extreme lengths to explain your
> ignorance of the situation, thanks. I didn't realize that the concept
> of a "foreign language" needed to be defined, but here goes:

Well, one of use is surely unclear on the definition...

> A "foreign language" in the context of the United States of America
> (and in the context of this discussion) is a language that is not
> spoken by the majority of people since the country's inception.

So after all this you really *do* just mean "non-majority" language when
you say "foreign language". OK...

>
> Since every major founding document, every major newspaper, and (to
> bring this discussion into the 21st century) every major American
> website was/is published in English, we consider every language other
> than English to be "foreign".

This would be the royal "we", right? Or do you presume to speak for all
America, Federal Government included (the US government doesn't, as it
happens, agree with your definition of "foreign language", but never
mind, I'm sure it's the thought that counts, right? Rigour never matters
when language is involved, right?).

(And the idea that "every major American website was / is published in
English" is funnier than you'll ever know, for reasons I'm guessing
you'll never know (let's just say I'm in the biz...). Or are we
encountering a "no true Scotsman" argument from you here?)

> For further clarification, please refer to the definition of the word
> "foreign", available in any of the free on-line dictionaries.

I have. I even -- twice -- quoted you the definition of "foreign
language" from one of your "free on-line dictionaries". Since you don't
agree with your own sources, this isn't aimed at you, but if anyone's
still playing along out there, a good place to start calling Jay's bluff
is <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/foreign>.

>
> Your example of such indigenous languages as Lakota and Spanish are
> not relevant to this discussion, as they pre-date the creation of the
> United States. They were never considered to be official languages of
> the United States, and may therefore be defined as "foreign", both in
> fact and in the context of this discussion.

English predates the official creation of the United States, too, oddly
enough. Can you tell me what *the* official language(s) of the United
States is (are) "in fact"? Where is it defined as official? Can you tell
me in which significant part of this country Spanish is the official
language? Is English a foreign language there?

Anyway, I hereby give up. If you want to call the native languages of a
country "foreign" languages in the countries of their origin, that's OK,
just expect to be badly misunderstood in the world beyond the flyover
states (unless, of course, you're using "foreign" as one of those dog
whistle words...). I don't expect you to care one way or another what
the wider population of the United States thinks (in fact something
tells me you'd be proud of the fact that they disagree), but your basic
ignorance of that wider United States rubs someone like me -- a fiscal
conservative who might otherwise bristle at the idea of spending *my*
tax dollars on unnecessary weather products -- very much the wrong way.

Over and out.

Hamish

[Jay Honeck]

> English predates the official creation of the United States, too, oddly
> enough. Can you tell me what *the* official language(s) of the United
> States is (are) "in fact"? Where is it defined as official? Can you tell
> me in which significant part of this country Spanish is the official
> language? Is English a foreign language there?

It is indeed rare to find someone who is both eloquent and ignorantly
obstinate -- but you seem to fill both bills.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone work so hard to try to disprove
the well-accepted (for 225 years!) fact that English is the de facto
"official language" of the United States. The reason it has never
been put in writing is because its predominance was so painfully
obvious to all concerned that codifying it seemed unnecessary.

That situation has recently changed, with the rise of misguided souls
who seem to believe that it is the U.S. taxpayer's sworn duty to
translate every official document and website into every language
(AKA: "foreign" ones), rather than raising the bar the *tiny* amount
it would take to require English language skills of our citizens.
Your moral relativism with regard to this issue provides the perfect
explanation for the growing movement to have English declared the
"official language" in so many U.S. states today.

But believe what you wish. Just don't try living and working in the
vast majority of America without learning English, or you will learn
what economic marginalization is all about.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[kontiki]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> That situation has recently changed, with the rise of misguided souls
> who seem to believe that it is the U.S. taxpayer's sworn duty to
> translate every official document and website into every language
> (AKA: "foreign" ones), rather than raising the bar the *tiny* amount
> it would take to require English language skills of our citizens.
> Your moral relativism with regard to this issue provides the perfect
> explanation for the growing movement to have English declared the
> "official language" in so many U.S. states today.
>

Well stated Jay. It is exactly this new 'relativism'... this new
striving to be politically CORRECT to the extreme that that is slowly
but inexorably taking apart the integrity of this country fiber by
fiber. This mis-guided hell bent attempt to get the rest of the world to
like us is really netting less and less respect.

But who cares, its more important to be 'stroked' by the media than
actually stand for anything.

[kontiki]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> If you are not depressed it is probably because you don't understand the
> situation. :-)
>

Why should I try to understand? My government will make the right
decisions for me.

[Jose]

> It may be good for business, but in the long term it is not good for societal cohesion. This country struggles harder every year to find things to bind together its many factions... a pretty much impossible task.

It wouldn't be impossible if all of us were the same... followed the
same religion, had the same values, and spoke the same language. But
that's not what freedom is about, is it? It is not =necessary= to be
different in order to be free, but it has to be possible.

That doesn't mean that the government should pick up the tab for every
whim. However, the government is there to serve =us=. =All= of us.
That's what we pay taxes for in the first place.

As pilots, we expect accomodation (by the government) for our pastime.
We make noise about how it is an economic benefit for the rest of the
country that GA is supported and unimpeded, and it may well be true.
Much benefit is under the radar. But that's sort of besides the point.
There are many things I do =not= do, that my taxes go to support. I
do not have children, for example, but my taxes support the education
and entertainment of other people's children. I accept that as the
nature of things, as the government is not here =just= for me.

There are many people for whom a Spanish language version of the
government supported weather operation =is= a service. There are
probably many more such people than there are pilots. It is probably
dirt cheap to provide this service, and I certainly do not begrudge it
to them.

Were we to advocate hacking away at non-mainstream services, we may well
find ourselves without airspace to fly in, so that the leaf blower
brigade doesn't have to listen to the occasional 172 overhead.

Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[ktbr]

Jose wrote:

> It wouldn't be impossible if all of us were the same... followed the
> same religion, had the same values, and spoke the same language. But
> that's not what freedom is about, is it? It is not =necessary= to be
> different in order to be free, but it has to be possible.
>
Well there ya go... the word 'freedom'. If in fact we actually had real
freedom in the countyr and LESS government regulation, micromanaging
and forcing rules of so called 'fairness' and political correctness
down our throats then the natural course of freedom WOULD bind us closer.

But that is not what happens... politicians play one socio-conomic
group against another, one income strata against another (remeber the
"two Americas" John Edwards is always talking about?). If you don't
recognize this as a problem you are part of it.

> That doesn't mean that the government should pick up the tab for every
> whim. However, the government is there to serve =us=. =All= of us.
> That's what we pay taxes for in the first place.
>

The word sir is freedom... freedom from government trying to "serve" us.
The job of government is not to "serve" us.. its job is to provide
national security so that our citizens can thrive using their own hard
work and get to keep as much of their OWN money as possible. Thats it.

> As pilots, we expect accomodation (by the government) for our pastime.

Why should I have to have a government "accomodate" my pastime?

> We make noise about how it is an economic benefit for the rest of the
> country that GA is supported and unimpeded, and it may well be true.
> Much benefit is under the radar. But that's sort of besides the point.
> There are many things I do =not= do, that my taxes go to support. I do
> not have children, for example, but my taxes support the education and
> entertainment of other people's children. I accept that as the nature
> of things, as the government is not here =just= for me.

Maybe you accept the fact that your taxes should support the education
and 'entertainment' of other people's children but I don't. It is the
responsibility of the parents... a concept that requires self reliance
and belief in the concept of personal responsibility. Publically
requiring people to accept personal responsibility is politically
IN-correct today and you know it.
>
> There are many people for whom a Spanish language version of the
> government supported weather operation =is= a service. There are
> probably many more such people than there are pilots. It is probably
> dirt cheap to provide this service, and I certainly do not begrudge it
> to them.
>
Sure and I'm sure you can find all kinds of people that would LOVE
to have to government (AKA other taxpayers) provide for and support
additional services that benefit them. But that is not real freedom.

Benjamin Franklin stated that "those willing to trade some freedom
for the promise of security deserve neither freedom nor security".

> Were we to advocate hacking away at non-mainstream services, we may well
> find ourselves without airspace to fly in, so that the leaf blower
> brigade doesn't have to listen to the occasional 172 overhead.
>

You are just wrong Jose... the more responsibilities for so called
"mainstream services" you want to hand over to the government
simply translates into less freedoms you as an individual will have
to chart your own destiny.

"Those willing to trade freedom for the promise of security deserve
neither freedom nor security".

[Jose]

> Benjamin Franklin stated that "those willing to trade some freedom
> for the promise of security deserve neither freedom nor security".

1: I wasn't talking about security.

2: The quote does not really refer to government excess, which is what
we are discussing. It refers to the impossibility of providing security
without sacrificing so much freedom it's too much.

3: You said, in the same post:

> The job of government is not to "serve" us.. its job is to provide
> national security so that our citizens can thrive...

So, maybe =you= should read Franklin's quote.

> Maybe you accept the fact that your taxes should support the education
> and 'entertainment' of other people's children but I don't. It is the
> responsibility of the parents...

Well, yes. But it is important to me that future voters, who =will=
decide the future of this country, be educated. You may not like the
state of public schools here, but there are quite a few parents who
would choose not to educate their children were it to cost them. Some
can't afford it, some don't see the value of education, and some want or
need helping hands at home. All of those children will vote one day.

There are some things that are tailor-made for government - among them
law enforcement and national defense. There are other things for which
government is a reasonable venue. Pure scientific research is such a
thing. It helps make our nation strong, even if there are no economic
benefits (which would attract the profit sector), because it makes this
country attractive to brainpower. Then, there are the ancillary things.
It makes little sense =not= to spend a little extra tax money to take
services that the government needs for its own uses and make them
available to the public who paid for them. Weather forecasting is such
a thing. And making that forecast available in the language of a
significant segment of the populace is (IMHO) included in this.

Yes, one must be alert for bloat and corruption. But this is not where
it is.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[ktbr]

Jose wrote:
>> Benjamin Franklin stated that "those willing to trade some freedom
>> for the promise of security deserve neither freedom nor security".
>
>
> 1: I wasn't talking about security.
>

Yes you are, but you just don't realize it. You advocate the government
providing for the various 'needs' of certain groups thus providing the
security that those needs will be met for them, over an above 'national'
security from attack from an enemy.

There is the security of 'universal' health care, education, housing,
Social [sic] Security, free prescriptions and yes, even translations of
various information services into their native language etc. etc. These
are all forms of security people come to _expect_ to be provided for
them with littel or no effort on their part.

I'll take freedom ... the freedom to stop participating in the Social
Security system and get all the money I have paid in back so I could be
allowed to invest the way I want to. I assure you I'd be much better off
in the long run. But alas, I have no such freedom to do that.

I can see this entire concept of freedom is alien to you so there
is no use discussing further.

[Jose]

> Yes you are, but you just don't realize it. You advocate the government
> providing for the various 'needs' of certain groups thus providing the
> security that those needs will be met for them, over an above 'national'
> security from attack from an enemy.

I not only am not talking about that, I have no idea what that means.
We're talking about translating, probably by machine, probably from
METAR codes, weather that has already been predicted, into Spanish.

> There is the security of 'universal' health care

I was not advocating that. Whether this is a reasonable function of
government is another discussion.

> education

I mentioned education, but not in the context of security, and not in
the context of the benefit to the student.

> housing

I did not mention housing. Ditto most of the rest.

> These are all forms of security
> people come to _expect_ to be provided for
> them with littel or no effort on their part.

When I use the word "security" I mean "safety from attack, either by an
invading foreign force, or by ill-meaning neighbors". In that context,
it is a proper role of government.

I do not mean, and you misconstrue my words if you mean me to mean,
"comfort in knowing my needs will be met". That is =not= a proper
function of government.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sylvain]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> That situation has recently changed, with the rise of misguided souls
> who seem to believe that it is the U.S. taxpayer's sworn duty to
> translate every official document and website into every language
> (AKA: "foreign" ones), rather than raising the bar the *tiny* amount
> it would take to require English language skills of our citizens.

I guess this is going to be another point where we will disagree :-)
it is not however a matter of 'moral relativism', but of different
background; I know, albeit indirectly, what forced integration
looks like, and it isn't pretty (horror stories from my late
grand dad, the french were quite brutal in their way of spreading
the 'One True Culture/Language (tm)' -- which makes it all the more
ironic when you hear them whine today about anglo-saxon cultural
imperialism, but I digress);

since we are way off topic wise, anyone could suggest a good Spanish
language course in Santa Clara county? my high-school Spanish is
quite a bit rusted and I wouldn't mind getting back to learning it.

--Sylvain

[ktbr]

Sylvain wrote:

> I guess this is going to be another point where we will disagree :-)
> it is not however a matter of 'moral relativism', but of different
> background; I know, albeit indirectly, what forced integration
> looks like, and it isn't pretty (horror stories from my late
> grand dad, the french were quite brutal in their way of spreading
> the 'One True Culture/Language (tm)' -- which makes it all the more
> ironic when you hear them whine today about anglo-saxon cultural
> imperialism, but I digress);

How on God's green earth you have equated an opposition to government
spending taxpayer money to translate services into multple languages
with "forced integration" just illustrates that you can only demagauge
the issue.

[Jose]

> since we are way off topic wise, anyone could suggest a good Spanish
> language course in Santa Clara county? my high-school Spanish is
> quite a bit rusted and I wouldn't mind getting back to learning it.

I don't know about courses in that area, but at the very least get the
tapes out of the library and start there. It's free, and it can't hurt.
You'd be surprised by what comes back.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Don Tuite]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:56:27 -0800, Sylvain > wrote:

>since we are way off topic wise, anyone could suggest a good Spanish
>language course in Santa Clara county? my high-school Spanish is
>quite a bit rusted and I wouldn't mind getting back to learning it.
>
Let me know if you find one here on vernacular Spanish.

Don )

[Sylvain]

ktbr wrote:


> How on God's green earth you have equated an opposition to government
> spending taxpayer money to translate services into multple languages
> with "forced integration" just illustrates that you can only demagauge
> the issue.

the arguments justifying either tend to be very similar, hence the
connection I made.

--Sylvain

[Jay Honeck]

> I not only am not talking about that, I have no idea what that means.

That's because you regard the government as our benefactor. You
think it's the solution, not the problem.

Those of us who regard the government as an impediment to progress
understand *exactly* what ktbr is talking about...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> That's because you regard the government as our benefactor. You
> think it's the solution, not the problem.
>
> Those of us who regard the government as an impediment to progress
> understand *exactly* what ktbr is talking about...

The government is supposed to be neither our benefactor nor an
impediment to progress, although in practice, it is both.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> The government is supposed to be neither our benefactor nor an
> impediment to progress, although in practice, it is both.

I submit that it is your brand of ambiguity toward the proper role of
our government that has led to our current situation. Power will
always fill a vacuum, and as long as there are citizens who think "Oh,
well, it would be nice if the governent would <fill in the blank> for
us", we will be ever-more restricted.

I fear this type of insidious encroachment on our freedoms far more
than any overt moves by Homeland Security.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
C J Campbell > wrote:

> >> How many citizens can only read/write Spanish?

> I am disturbed by the apparent assumption that any Spanish speaker must be an
> illegal alien.

Are you suggesting that the question implied any assumptions?

>The vast majority of Spanish speakers in the US are citizens.
> A lot of them are descended from people who were living in what is now the
> USA long before the Mayflower ever got here. It really is ignorant not to
> know that.

Spanish, like English, is an imported language.

I'm, in part, a descendent of people living here way before Spanish or English
arrived.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jose]

> I submit that it is your brand of ambiguity toward the proper role of
> our government that has led to our current situation.

We differ fundamentally on what is wrong with "our current situation".

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mxsmanic]

ktbr writes:

> I'll take freedom ... the freedom to stop participating in the Social
> Security system and get all the money I have paid in back so I could be
> allowed to invest the way I want to. I assure you I'd be much better off
> in the long run. But alas, I have no such freedom to do that.

It can't be done, because all the money you've put into the system has already
been given to someone else.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> I submit that it is your brand of ambiguity toward the proper role of
> our government that has led to our current situation. Power will
> always fill a vacuum, and as long as there are citizens who think "Oh,
> well, it would be nice if the governent would <fill in the blank> for
> us", we will be ever-more restricted.
>
> I fear this type of insidious encroachment on our freedoms far more
> than any overt moves by Homeland Security.

Just because it is overt doesn't mean that it is harmless.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Honeck]

> > I submit that it is your brand of ambiguity toward the proper role of
> > our government that has led to our current situation.
>
> We differ fundamentally on what is wrong with "our current situation".

Boy, that's for sure!

I do believe you have put your finger on what is so bitterly dividing
our nation today. Not only can't we agree on the solutions, we can't
even agree on the problems.

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > I fear this type of insidious encroachment on our freedoms far more
> > than any overt moves by Homeland Security.
>
> Just because it is overt doesn't mean that it is harmless.

True, but at least I can fight what I can see.

Most of what has happened to destroy freedom in America has occurred
bit by bit, incrementally, over a fairly long period of time -- and
(worst of all) has been done by people who think they are helping.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> Not only can't we agree on the solutions, we can't
> even agree on the problems.

Wiser words were never spoken.

If we can't define the problem, no solution will work.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Whiting]

Jose wrote:

>> Not only can't we agree on the solutions, we can't
>> even agree on the problems.
>
>
> Wiser words were never spoken.
>
> If we can't define the problem, no solution will work.

Or any solution will work. If you don't know where you are going ...
any road will take you there.

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm, in part, a descendent of people living here way before Spanish or English
> arrived.

As are we all.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

>> If we can't define the problem, no solution will work.
> Or any solution will work. If you don't know where you are going ... any road will take you there.

Well, the problem is that each of us =thinks= we know where we (should
be) going.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mxsmanic]

It seems that now illegal aliens will be able to buy aircraft more easily,
since Bank of America is issuing credit cards to them for free. See

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/bankofamerica.asp

I thought this was a class urban legend when I first heard about it, but
unfortunately it's true.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.