VFR terminology in Class B

[Matt]

Hello everyone.

Two months ago I flew VFR into Memphis. This was my first time landing at
the primary airport of a Class B. From about 30 miles out, the approach
controller was providing vectors and altitudes to maintain. I was told to
expect runway 27. About seven miles southeast of the airport I was told to
"descend at my discretion." I was not lined up with the runway at this
point, and was not sure if he meant I was just limited to descending or
should intercept the extended centerline. I asked him if I was "cleared for
the visual" and he replied that "cleared for the visual" was an IFR
clearance and I was not IFR. He repeated that I was cleared to "descend at
my discretion." I figured this meant line up and land on 27. I did that
and was handed off to the tower.

At most other towered airports I have been to, the controller always says
something like "enter a 3 mile base for 27" or "report a 3 mile final for
27" or something to that effect. I was expecting the same at Memphis. My
question is: Was the controller correct in this situation to use the phrase
"descend at your discretion."

Thanks for your thoughts.

Matt

[Travis Marlatte]

"Matt" > wrote in message
. net...
> Hello everyone.
>
> Two months ago I flew VFR into Memphis. This was my first time landing at
> the primary airport of a Class B. From about 30 miles out, the approach
> controller was providing vectors and altitudes to maintain. I was told to
> expect runway 27. About seven miles southeast of the airport I was told
> to "descend at my discretion." I was not lined up with the runway at this
> point, and was not sure if he meant I was just limited to descending or
> should intercept the extended centerline. I asked him if I was "cleared
> for the visual" and he replied that "cleared for the visual" was an IFR
> clearance and I was not IFR. He repeated that I was cleared to "descend
> at my discretion." I figured this meant line up and land on 27. I did
> that and was handed off to the tower.
>
> At most other towered airports I have been to, the controller always says
> something like "enter a 3 mile base for 27" or "report a 3 mile final for
> 27" or something to that effect. I was expecting the same at Memphis. My
> question is: Was the controller correct in this situation to use the
> phrase "descend at your discretion."
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Matt
>
You said your were southeast. Lining up 7 miles out sounds like several
miles of going out of your way. No sense doing a 3 mile base to a 7 mile
final. In my plane, 7 miles would give other people time to get in before I
got there. Without a specific instruction to line up, I would have continued
on a direct line for the airport until I could do a base for short final.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

[Matt]

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
> You said your were southeast. Lining up 7 miles out sounds like several
> miles of going out of your way. No sense doing a 3 mile base to a 7 mile
> final. In my plane, 7 miles would give other people time to get in before
> I got there. Without a specific instruction to line up, I would have
> continued on a direct line for the airport until I could do a base for
> short final.

I mentioned the base and final just as examples of my experiences at other
towered airports. The point is that I did not interpret "descend at your
discretion" to mean "do whatever you want."

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Matt" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> I mentioned the base and final just as examples of my experiences at other
> towered airports. The point is that I did not interpret "descend at your
> discretion" to mean "do whatever you want."

Were you ever assigned any heading, altitude, or route?

[Matt]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote >
> Were you ever assigned any heading, altitude, or route?

Yes. He was giving me headings and altitudes to fly, as if I was getting
vectors to the localizer. But I was VFR. Not flying a practice approach.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Matt" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> Yes. He was giving me headings and altitudes to fly, as if I was getting
> vectors to the localizer. But I was VFR. Not flying a practice approach.

Perfectly acceptable in Class B airspace. If you were never told to proceed
to the field or resume your own navigation or anything else like that you
just hold the last assigned heading. "Descend at your discretion" would
cancel any previously assigned altitude, but not the heading.

[Matt]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
> Perfectly acceptable in Class B airspace. If you were never told to
> proceed to the field or resume your own navigation or anything else like
> that you just hold the last assigned heading. "Descend at your
> discretion" would cancel any previously assigned altitude, but not the
> heading.

That is my understanding as well. But the last instruction I received from
the approach controller before being handed to the tower was to descend at
my discretion. I decided to turn onto final without ever being specifically
told to do so by the approach controller or the tower controller.

[G. Sylvester]

Matt wrote:
> That is my understanding as well. But the last instruction I received from
> the approach controller before being handed to the tower was to descend at
> my discretion. I decided to turn onto final without ever being specifically
> told to do so by the approach controller or the tower controller.

I would have asked. You don't want to play around in Class B.

When flying (san francisco) Bay tours, sometimes SFO tour routes you
over midfield when a heavy is departing runway 28. Sometimes they just
say 'cross over midfield' or give a heading without a typical IFR "turn
right heading XXX *to intercept Victor YYY." I know that after I cross
midfield they'll tell me to intercept the 101 freeway but I always ask
just in case there are 2 heavies taking off." Always ask because you
could be in for a rude awakening.

Gerald

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Feb 17, 3:15 pm, "Matt" > wrote:
> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
>
> > Perfectly acceptable in Class B airspace. If you were never told to
> > proceed to the field or resume your own navigation or anything else like
> > that you just hold the last assigned heading. "Descend at your
> > discretion" would cancel any previously assigned altitude, but not the
> > heading.
>
> That is my understanding as well. But the last instruction I received from
> the approach controller before being handed to the tower was to descend at
> my discretion. I decided to turn onto final without ever being specifically
> told to do so by the approach controller or the tower controller.

If the last instruction did not include a heading, you are still bound
by the heading that was assigned to you on a previous instruction.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Matt" > wrote:

> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote >
> > Were you ever assigned any heading, altitude, or route?
>
> Yes. He was giving me headings and altitudes to fly, as if I was getting
> vectors to the localizer. But I was VFR. Not flying a practice approach.

If the guy says, "Fly heading 180, maintain 2000", and then sometime later
says, "descend at your discretion", that says to me you're still on an
assigned heading of 180 while you're descending.

If you suspect that doesn't make sense, you could ask, "Do you still need
me on 180?". Presumably that would elicit something like, "Heading and
altitude your discretion", which can be roughly translated as "Stop
bothering me and get yourself to the runway".

[Kingfish]

> My question is: Was the controller correct in this situation to use the phrase
> "descend at your discretion."
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Matt

It's not a matter of whether he was correct or not, he just gave you
the option of staying at your present altitude or descending. At 7
miles out you'd just continue on the assigned heading until switched
over to tower who might then have you join the left base or make a
straight in approach. Asking if you were cleared for the visual was
just a minor gaffe on your part - I've heard and done worse. Sometimes
you'll be surprised what you'll hear when expecting something else.

[Bill Watson]

Matt wrote:
> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
>> Perfectly acceptable in Class B airspace. If you were never told to
>> proceed to the field or resume your own navigation or anything else like
>> that you just hold the last assigned heading. "Descend at your
>> discretion" would cancel any previously assigned altitude, but not the
>> heading.
>
> That is my understanding as well. But the last instruction I received from
> the approach controller before being handed to the tower was to descend at
> my discretion. I decided to turn onto final without ever being specifically
> told to do so by the approach controller or the tower controller.
>
You are still on the last assigned heading, you should fly it until
given something else (the first paragraph is precise and complete). A
good call to make when being assigned to the tower in this case is
"Biggie Tower, 123W descending thru 2,000, airport in sight". At that
point you are going to get 1) "123W Cleared to land Runway 27, 2) "123W
turn right 30 degrees you are number 3 following the Airbus" or 3)
"123W" aka "nothing" in which case you just keep doing what you are doing.

When I'm doing my slow mover Class B thing, I never seem to get lined up
on a runway VFR - they just point me at the airport until the timing is
right then clear me to land - I just head for the threshold at that point.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Bill Watson > wrote:

> When I'm doing my slow mover Class B thing, I never seem to get lined up
> on a runway VFR - they just point me at the airport until the timing is
> right then clear me to land - I just head for the threshold at that point.

Which is perfectly reasonable, considering that most Class B runways are
long enough that you could fly an entire VFR pattern within their length.

[Michael Ware]

"Matt" > wrote in message
et...
>
> That is my understanding as well. But the last instruction I received
> from the approach controller before being handed to the tower was to
> descend at my discretion. I decided to turn onto final without ever being
> specifically told to do so by the approach controller or the tower
> controller.
>
One way clear these questions up, when you reply to his instruction of
'descend at your descretion', say something like 'Piper 123P continuing
inbound for runway 27L on present heading, descending at pilot's
descretion'. If he has a problem with it, he will tell you different.

Mike

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Michael Ware" > wrote:

> "Matt" > wrote in message
> et...
> >
> > That is my understanding as well. But the last instruction I received
> > from the approach controller before being handed to the tower was to
> > descend at my discretion. I decided to turn onto final without ever being
> > specifically told to do so by the approach controller or the tower
> > controller.
> >
> One way clear these questions up, when you reply to his instruction of
> 'descend at your descretion', say something like 'Piper 123P continuing
> inbound for runway 27L on present heading, descending at pilot's
> descretion'. If he has a problem with it, he will tell you different.
>
> Mike

While you're at it, you might want to tell him what you had for lunch and
ask him if he's got the latest baseball score.

When things are quiet, such verbosity isn't a problem. But, if you're
flying into Class B, you have to be prepared for things to be busy, which
means knowing how to make efficient on the radio.

[601XL Builder]

Matt wrote:
> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote >
>> Were you ever assigned any heading, altitude, or route?
>
> Yes. He was giving me headings and altitudes to fly, as if I was getting
> vectors to the localizer. But I was VFR. Not flying a practice approach.
>
>

And he may well have been sending you to the localizer but he knew you
weren't IFR and most of his traffic was IFR so he may have planned to
move you through his airspace like you were IFR.

While a pretty good idea in all controlled airspace, in Bravo just do
what ATC tells you unless you think it is unsafe and be ready to defend
that decision.

[Alan Gerber]

Kingfish > wrote:
> It's not a matter of whether he was correct or not, he just gave you
> the option of staying at your present altitude or descending.

And sometimes that's their way of telling you "you're pretty close, you'd
better start descending now!"

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Chris G.]

Matt,

Given the responses already, I would suggest filing an ASRS form if it
is not too late (for the 10-day rule). The way you described the
incident, while not resulting in any problems and maybe even thought
twice of by the approach controller, indicated a violation of ATC
instructions. I'm surprised no one said this already.

Chris G., PP-ASEL
Salem, Oregon


Matt wrote:
> Hello everyone.
>
> Two months ago I flew VFR into Memphis. This was my first time landing at
> the primary airport of a Class B. From about 30 miles out, the approach
> controller was providing vectors and altitudes to maintain. I was told to
> expect runway 27. About seven miles southeast of the airport I was told to
> "descend at my discretion." I was not lined up with the runway at this
> point, and was not sure if he meant I was just limited to descending or
> should intercept the extended centerline. I asked him if I was "cleared for
> the visual" and he replied that "cleared for the visual" was an IFR
> clearance and I was not IFR. He repeated that I was cleared to "descend at
> my discretion." I figured this meant line up and land on 27. I did that
> and was handed off to the tower.
>
> At most other towered airports I have been to, the controller always says
> something like "enter a 3 mile base for 27" or "report a 3 mile final for
> 27" or something to that effect. I was expecting the same at Memphis. My
> question is: Was the controller correct in this situation to use the phrase
> "descend at your discretion."
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Matt
>
>