Another warbird lost

[Kingfish]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9161106816384837258

This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
a Super Corsair at that, which I think was one of a handful of R-4360
powered F4Us. Glad the pilot got out, but another piece of history is
gone, and for no good reason IMHO...

[vlado]

On Feb 18, 12:02?am, "Kingfish" > wrote:
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9161106816384837258
>
> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
> a Super Corsair at that, which I think was one of a handful of R-4360
> powered F4Us. Glad the pilot got out, but another piece of history is
> gone, and for no good reason IMHO...

Kingfish:
This aircraft was not a stock F4U by any means. It was not even a
factory built aircraft. It did not posses a serial number from the
manufacturer or Navy. This airframe was built completely from spare
parts and many custom made parts. Thus, as an airframe, it had no
history. If this helps your regret..............

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On 17 Feb 2007 22:02:22 -0800, "Kingfish" >
wrote:
> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
> a Super Corsair at that, which I think was one of a handful of R-4360
> powered F4Us. Glad the pilot got out, but another piece of history is
> gone, and for no good reason IMHO...

Given the going prices for warbirds, if the data plate survived,
someone will "rebuild" the aircraft... A few years back, I stumbled
across Chino airport in SoCal... They have quite a few warbird
restoration shops over there... Spoke with one guy and he said that if
someone gives them a data plate, they can rebuild the rest of the
aircraft all around it from the blueprints that they had or could
get... Here's a link to a view of the airport... You can see quite a
few "spare parts" scattered around...

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=pnx82k55wx15&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=6482833

[G. Sylvester]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> Given the going prices for warbirds, if the data plate survived,
> someone will "rebuild" the aircraft... A few years back, I stumbled
> across Chino airport in SoCal... They have quite a few warbird
> restoration shops over there... Spoke with one guy and he said that if
> someone gives them a data plate, they can rebuild the rest of the
> aircraft all around it from the blueprints that they had or could
> get...

I saw an FAA safety seminar with a speaker from the local FSDO. He said
more and more companies are dispatching reps to accident sites to
confirm the S/N off of the data plate. The company determines if the
plane is a complete loss in their eyes separate from insurance
companies. The company certifies the plane when built and then certifies
the plane is a complete loss and effectively ending the plane's
(actually the S/N's) life. IIRC, Bell helicopter lists these S/N on
their website.

For these warbirds, I'm guessing most are probably in the Experimental
category so probably the dataplate doesn't mean too much other than from
the historical perspective but that is a pure guess.

Gerald

[Kingfish]

On Feb 18, 1:32 am, "vlado" > wrote:
> Kingfish:
> This aircraft was not a stock F4U by any means. It was not even a
> factory built aircraft. It did not posses a serial number from the
> manufacturer or Navy. This airframe was built completely from spare
> parts and many custom made parts. Thus, as an airframe, it had no
> history. If this helps your regret..............

Interesting, vlado. Where'd that info come from? I'm curious. Did that
plane have the R-4360 engine or the R-2800? Although, even without a
NSN it's still a Corsair (right?) - albeit without any military combat
history. Considering how many F4Us are airworthy these days, the loss
of even a flying parts kit still bums me out.

>Gerald added: For these warbirds, I'm guessing most are probably in the Experimental
>category so probably the dataplate doesn't mean too much other than from
>the historical perspective but that is a pure guess.

IIRC all warbirds are Experimentals because no civilian type
certificate ever existed for them.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Kingfish" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Feb 18, 1:32 am, "vlado" > wrote:
>> Kingfish:
>> This aircraft was not a stock F4U by any means. It was not even a
>> factory built aircraft. It did not posses a serial number from the
>> manufacturer or Navy. This airframe was built completely from spare
>> parts and many custom made parts. Thus, as an airframe, it had no
>> history. If this helps your regret..............
>
> Interesting, vlado. Where'd that info come from? I'm curious. Did that
> plane have the R-4360 engine or the R-2800? Although, even without a
> NSN it's still a Corsair (right?) - albeit without any military combat
> history. Considering how many F4Us are airworthy these days, the loss
> of even a flying parts kit still bums me out.
>
>>Gerald added: For these warbirds, I'm guessing most are probably in the
>>Experimental
>>category so probably the dataplate doesn't mean too much other than from
>>the historical perspective but that is a pure guess.
>
> IIRC all warbirds are Experimentals because no civilian type
> certificate ever existed for them.

The aircraft was powered by an R-4360. This crash happened in 1994...

I would guess that there are more flying Corsairs today than there were
then, due to various restoration project coming to fruition. In today's
high dollar warbird scene, it is economically feasable to restore (or
remanufacture) projects that were not viable projects 10 or 20 years ago.

KB

[vlado]

On Feb 18, 3:59�am, "G. Sylvester" > wrote:
> Grumman-581 wrote:
> > Given the going prices for warbirds, if the data plate survived,
> > someone will "rebuild" the aircraft... A few years back, I stumbled
> > across Chino airport in SoCal... They have quite a few warbird
> > restoration shops over there... Spoke with one guy and he said that if
> > someone gives them a data plate, they can rebuild the rest of the
> > aircraft all around it from the blueprints that they had or could
> > get...
>
> I saw an FAA safety seminar with a speaker from the local FSDO. *He said
> more and more companies are dispatching reps to accident sites to
> confirm the S/N off of the data plate. *The company determines if the
> plane is a complete loss in their eyes separate from insurance
> companies. The company certifies the plane when built and then certifies
> the plane is a complete loss and effectively ending the plane's
> (actually the S/N's) life. *IIRC, Bell helicopter lists these S/N on
> their website.
>
> For these warbirds, I'm guessing most are probably in the Experimental
> category so probably the dataplate doesn't mean too much other than from
> the historical perspective but that is a pure guess.
>
> Gerald

P-51D Mustangs are Limited Category
(except those modified for racing).
Kevin (the pilot) told me that the crash video Corsair was made from
spare parts; early wings, late fuselage, engine/cowl from KC-97 or
such, or some sort of combination. At Oshkosh, it would be poo-poo'd
due to its '*******' heritage. But yes, it still was a Corsair -lost.
VL

[John[_9_]]

As I recall that aircraft was a Planes of Fame aircraft and was
originally an F4U-1, one of the earliest Corsairs built. It had been
used by a movie studio as a wind generator or a prop. When they were
stripping the paint they found some indications of combat service like
kill or mission markings but didn't bother to research it further
before clipping the wings and installing the R 4360 engine. Maybe the
original data plate was missing, and maybe the mission/kill markings
were bogus and maybe not all of the aircraft was intact when the
rebuild began but it was a -1 Corsair airframe. The same type that
Ira Kepford and Pappy Boyington flew. It seemed a waste to me a the
time and still does.

I don't buy the idea that every old airframe is historic and I support
fully the right of anyone owning anything to do with that thing
whatever they legally want. The Planes of Fame has done such great
work that I can't really blame them for experimenting with one
artifact of unknown provenance.

I think that there ought to be clearly defined hierarchy for
historical artifacts. Some things are historic because they were used
in a specific event (Enola Gay, Spirit of St. Louis etc.), some are
historic because they are among the last of their specific type
(Douglas Dolphin or the Brewster 239 at Pensacola) and some are
historic because they are among the last of their general kind,
(Martin Mars, last piston engined true flying boats operational). In a
perfect world people that owned historic artifacts would treat them
with appropriate respect.

On Feb 18, 1:32�am, "vlado" > wrote:
> On Feb 18, 12:02?am, "Kingfish" > wrote:
>
> >http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9161106816384837258
>
> > This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
> > a Super Corsair at that, which I think was one of a handful of R-4360
> > powered F4Us. Glad the pilot got out, but another piece of history is
> > gone, and for no good reason IMHO...
>
> Kingfish:
> This aircraft was not a stock F4U by any means. *It was not even a
> factory built aircraft. *It did not posses a serial number from the
> manufacturer or Navy. *This airframe was built completely from spare
> parts and many custom made parts. *Thus, as an airframe, it had no
> history. *If this helps your regret..............

[Kingfish]

On Feb 18, 10:38 am, "Kyle Boatright" > wrote:
>
> The aircraft was powered by an R-4360. This crash happened in 1994...
>
> I would guess that there are more flying Corsairs today than there were
> then, due to various restoration project coming to fruition. In today's
> high dollar warbird scene, it is economically feasable to restore (or
> remanufacture) projects that were not viable projects 10 or 20 years ago.
>

Aha. I saw the Dec. '04 date on the video and assumed it was recent.
Interesting point about the viability of warbird restorations KB. I
never thought of that.

[Tri-Pacer]

"> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
>




Hey it's his airplane to do with what he wants.

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A

[Kingfish]

On Feb 19, 2:42 pm, "Tri-Pacer" > wrote:
> "> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
>
>
>
> Hey it's his airplane to do with what he wants.
>
> Cheers:
>
> Paul
> N1431A

Yeah, I know. It's a free country and all that... Still bugs me though

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Kingfish" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Yeah, I know. It's a free country and all that... Still bugs me though
>

Semi-free.

[Kingfish]

On Feb 19, 6:38 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Kingfish" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
> > Yeah, I know. It's a free country and all that... Still bugs me though
>
> Semi-free.

That's a whole other thread...

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Tri-Pacer" > wrote:

> "> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
> >
>
>
>
>
> Hey it's his airplane to do with what he wants.

I have a friend who has accumulated a whole warehouse full of warbird
parts and refuses to sell to racers. (It REALLY ****es them off!)

He has several P-51s (including a flyable H model), a Bearcat an a bunch
of antiques.

[vlado]

On Feb 19, 10:51�pm, Orval Fairbairn >
wrote:
> In article >,
>
> *"Tri-Pacer" > wrote:
> > "> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
>
> > Hey it's his airplane to do with what he wants.
>
> I have a friend who has accumulated a whole warehouse full of warbird
> parts and refuses to sell to racers. (It REALLY ****es them off!)
>
> He has several P-51s (including a flyable H model), a Bearcat an a bunch
> of antiques.

Will he sell to ex-racers? HA!

[[email protected]]

Cool video. I was at those races (funny, thought it was in 95, not
94) and remember the crash well. Everybody in the crowd was yelling
"GET OUT!" as the Corsair was burning. When it went in, it was just
like a movie special effect. I think it impacted in the old GM
proving grounds, so no damage to anything on the ground, thank
goodness.

They also had MD-500 helicopter races that year. Three of them,
started from line-abreast hover. Funny as hell!

Too bad the races didn't come back to Phoenix after that.

As far as losing a warbird, it's like shooting down retired jets as
targets - beats being turned into pots and pans or gathering dust in
some dinky museum.

Kirk

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
"vlado" > wrote:

> On Feb 19, 10:51?pm, Orval Fairbairn >
> wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> > ?"Tri-Pacer" > wrote:
> > > "> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
> >
> > > Hey it's his airplane to do with what he wants.
> >
> > I have a friend who has accumulated a whole warehouse full of warbird
> > parts and refuses to sell to racers. (It REALLY ****es them off!)
> >
> > He has several P-51s (including a flyable H model), a Bearcat an a bunch
> > of antiques.
>
> Will he sell to ex-racers? HA!

I don't know -- I DO know that he hates to see them modified, abused and
torn up.

[Tri-Pacer]

"> I have a friend who has accumulated a whole warehouse full of warbird
> parts and refuses to sell to racers. (It REALLY ****es them off!)
>
> He has several P-51s (including a flyable H model), a Bearcat an a bunch
> of antiques.

Does he let people look and drool???

[Kingfish]

On Feb 20, 1:07 pm, "Tri-Pacer" > wrote:
> "> I have a friend who has accumulated a whole warehouse full of warbird
>
> > parts and refuses to sell to racers. (It REALLY ****es them off!)
>
> > He has several P-51s (including a flyable H model), a Bearcat an a bunch
> > of antiques.
>
> Does he let people look and drool???

I'd sit in the cockpit of his Mustang and make Merlin sounds... If
he'd let me

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Tri-Pacer" > wrote:

> "> I have a friend who has accumulated a whole warehouse full of warbird
> > parts and refuses to sell to racers. (It REALLY ****es them off!)
> >
> > He has several P-51s (including a flyable H model), a Bearcat an a bunch
> > of antiques.
>
> Does he let people look and drool???

You have to know him.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 17, 10:02 pm, "Kingfish" > wrote:
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9161106816384837258
>
> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
> a Super Corsair at that, which I think was one of a handful of R-4360
> powered F4Us. Glad the pilot got out, but another piece of history is
> gone, and for no good reason IMHO...

What would be even more sad is to see these planes rusting away in a
museum. Let them fly!! Seeing these planes in museums is like looking
at a coffin.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 20, 9:56 am, Orval Fairbairn > wrote:
> In article . com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> "vlado" > wrote:
> > On Feb 19, 10:51?pm, Orval Fairbairn >
> > wrote:
> > > In article >,
>
> > > ?"Tri-Pacer" > wrote:
> > > > "> This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
>
> > > > Hey it's his airplane to do with what he wants.
>
> > > I have a friend who has accumulated a whole warehouse full of warbird
> > > parts and refuses to sell to racers. (It REALLY ****es them off!)
>
> > > He has several P-51s (including a flyable H model), a Bearcat an a bunch
> > > of antiques.
>
> > Will he sell to ex-racers? HA!
>
> I don't know -- I DO know that he hates to see them modified, abused and
> torn up.

Or worse, rusting in a museum!!

-Robert

[Kingfish]

On Feb 20, 2:08 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> > This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
> > a Super Corsair at that, which I think was one of a handful of R-4360
> > powered F4Us. Glad the pilot got out, but another piece of history is
> > gone, and for no good reason IMHO...
>
> What would be even more sad is to see these planes rusting away in a
> museum. Let them fly!! Seeing these planes in museums is like looking
> at a coffin.

I agree 100%, but realize the operating cost of those planes can be
scary. I just don't like seeing them put at risk in air racing. I'd be
interested to know what the total attrition rate is considering the
number of aircraft currently under restoration

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article . com>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> On Feb 17, 10:02 pm, "Kingfish" > wrote:
> > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9161106816384837258
> >
> > This makes me nuts. An irreplaceable Corsair is lost in an air race -
> > a Super Corsair at that, which I think was one of a handful of R-4360
> > powered F4Us. Glad the pilot got out, but another piece of history is
> > gone, and for no good reason IMHO...
>
> What would be even more sad is to see these planes rusting away in a
> museum. Let them fly!! Seeing these planes in museums is like looking
> at a coffin.
>
> -Robert

Even worse is the "airplane on a stick."