Magneto Repair vs Overhaul Question.

[Ebby]

I was following the thread on Bendix and Slick magnetos and contacted
several repair shops regarding getting my magnetos overhauled. I got a
message back from one shop telling me they didn't overhaul magnetos they
only repair them. What am I missing? I don't believe my magnetos are
broken but they do have a few hundred hours on them. If I get them repaired
what would be repaired? I'd get an 8130.3 from the shop with the repaired
magneto. Oh, knowledgeable ones in the group please enlighten me.

--
John "Ebby" Ebensperger
Hatz Classic s/n37
Camden, NY

[[email protected]]

On Feb 22, 6:53 pm, "Ebby" > wrote:
> I was following the thread on Bendix and Slick magnetos and contacted
> several repair shops regarding getting my magnetos overhauled. I got a
> message back from one shop telling me they didn't overhaul magnetos they
> only repair them. What am I missing? I don't believe my magnetos are
> broken but they do have a few hundred hours on them. If I get them repaired
> what would be repaired? I'd get an 8130.3 from the shop with the repaired
> magneto. Oh, knowledgeable ones in the group please enlighten me.
>
> --
> John "Ebby" Ebensperger
> Hatz Classic s/n37
> Camden, NY

This is from the Canadian Aviation Regulations; I can't find
similar definitions in the FARs, but I would imagine that wherever
they are, they're not far off:

CAR 101.01:

"overhaul" - means a restoration process that includes the
disassembly, inspection, repair or replacement of parts, reassembly,
adjustment, refinishing and testing of an aeronautical product, and
ensures that the aeronautical product is in complete conformity with
the service tolerances specified in the applicable instructions for
continued airworthiness.

"repair" - means the rectification of deficiencies in an aeronautical
product or the restoration of an aeronautical product to an airworthy
condition.

End of quote.

So an "overhaul" ensures that the unit is returned to within new
factory specs. A shop probably has to comply with some federal
requirements to be called an "overhaul" shop, and would need test
equipment and all sorts of special tools as well as all the parts that
might be required. That shop could call the product overhauled.
A "repair" is simply the fixing of whatever is haywire so that the
unit will work again. In a magneto, replacing the points, condenser
and perhaps distributor block and rotor would probably make things
work well again, and it would be just a repair. The mechanic could not
certify it as "overhauled" but it would still be a legal "repair."
Cheaper, too.

Dan

[Blueskies]

"Ebby" > wrote in message ...
:I was following the thread on Bendix and Slick magnetos and contacted
: several repair shops regarding getting my magnetos overhauled. I got a
: message back from one shop telling me they didn't overhaul magnetos they
: only repair them. What am I missing? I don't believe my magnetos are
: broken but they do have a few hundred hours on them. If I get them repaired
: what would be repaired? I'd get an 8130.3 from the shop with the repaired
: magneto. Oh, knowledgeable ones in the group please enlighten me.
:
: --
: John "Ebby" Ebensperger
: Hatz Classic s/n37
: Camden, NY
:
:


FAR 43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.
(a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless-

(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned,
inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and

(2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or in accordance with current standards
and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type
certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process, or appliance approval under §21.305 of this
chapter.

(b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as
necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item, using either new parts or used parts
that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.

[Ebby]

I just got an answer from one of the repair shops. They indicated that for
slick magnetos overhaul involves a replacement of all components making the
magneto essentially new. The cost of overhaul is well like buying new.
Repair included contacts and an oil seal with an up charge if anything else
was required. That's about it.

Ebby


"Blueskies" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Ebby" > wrote in message
> ...
> :I was following the thread on Bendix and Slick magnetos and contacted
> : several repair shops regarding getting my magnetos overhauled. I got a
> : message back from one shop telling me they didn't overhaul magnetos they
> : only repair them. What am I missing? I don't believe my magnetos are
> : broken but they do have a few hundred hours on them. If I get them
> repaired
> : what would be repaired? I'd get an 8130.3 from the shop with the
> repaired
> : magneto. Oh, knowledgeable ones in the group please enlighten me.
> :
> : --
> : John "Ebby" Ebensperger
> : Hatz Classic s/n37
> : Camden, NY
> :
> :
>
>
> FAR 43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.
> (a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an
> aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
> appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless-
>
> (1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the
> Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned,
> inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and
>
> (2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical
> data, or in accordance with current standards
> and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been
> developed and documented by the holder of the type
> certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process,
> or appliance approval under §21.305 of this
> chapter.
>
> (b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an
> aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
> appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been
> disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as
> necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a
> new item, using either new parts or used parts
> that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved
> oversized or undersized dimensions.
>
>

[Blueskies]

Sounds like they could call it an overhaul, unless Slick has a CMM or other document that requires replacement of all of
the parts you are referring to.


"Ebby" > wrote in message ...
:I just got an answer from one of the repair shops. They indicated that for
: slick magnetos overhaul involves a replacement of all components making the
: magneto essentially new. The cost of overhaul is well like buying new.
: Repair included contacts and an oil seal with an up charge if anything else
: was required. That's about it.
:
: Ebby
:
:
: "Blueskies" > wrote in message
: .. .
: >
: > "Ebby" > wrote in message
: > ...
: > :I was following the thread on Bendix and Slick magnetos and contacted
: > : several repair shops regarding getting my magnetos overhauled. I got a
: > : message back from one shop telling me they didn't overhaul magnetos they
: > : only repair them. What am I missing? I don't believe my magnetos are
: > : broken but they do have a few hundred hours on them. If I get them
: > repaired
: > : what would be repaired? I'd get an 8130.3 from the shop with the
: > repaired
: > : magneto. Oh, knowledgeable ones in the group please enlighten me.
: > :
: > : --
: > : John "Ebby" Ebensperger
: > : Hatz Classic s/n37
: > : Camden, NY
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
: > FAR 43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.
: > (a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an
: > aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
: > appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless-
: >
: > (1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the
: > Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned,
: > inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and
: >
: > (2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical
: > data, or in accordance with current standards
: > and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been
: > developed and documented by the holder of the type
: > certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process,
: > or appliance approval under §21.305 of this
: > chapter.
: >
: > (b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an
: > aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
: > appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been
: > disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as
: > necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a
: > new item, using either new parts or used parts
: > that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved
: > oversized or undersized dimensions.
: >
: >
:
:

[RST Engineering]

You can't call it an overhaul unless you perform the operation in strict
conformance to the manufacturer's (or tc holder, or stc holder or ...)
overhaul manual or instructions. In this case, since the manufacturer's
manual (according to the OP) requires the replacement of ALL components,
simply doing a points, bearings, and seal is a repair, not an overhaul.

I've done about as many engines as the next guy, and I can tear that sucker
down, replace every part in it to BETTER than new limits, reassemble it
perfectly, and since this particular manufacturer/engine OH manual requires
run-in in a test cell with a club prop and I don't have either, it is simply
an expensive repair, not an overhaul.

Jim


"Blueskies" > wrote in message
...
> Sounds like they could call it an overhaul, unless Slick has a CMM or
> other document that requires replacement of all of
> the parts you are referring to.
>
>
> "Ebby" > wrote in message
> ...
> :I just got an answer from one of the repair shops. They indicated that
> for
> : slick magnetos overhaul involves a replacement of all components making
> the
> : magneto essentially new. The cost of overhaul is well like buying new.
> : Repair included contacts and an oil seal with an up charge if anything
> else
> : was required. That's about it.
> :
> : Ebby
> :
> :
> : "Blueskies" > wrote in message
> : .. .
> : >
> : > "Ebby" > wrote in message
> : > ...
> : > :I was following the thread on Bendix and Slick magnetos and contacted
> : > : several repair shops regarding getting my magnetos overhauled. I
> got a
> : > : message back from one shop telling me they didn't overhaul magnetos
> they
> : > : only repair them. What am I missing? I don't believe my magnetos
> are
> : > : broken but they do have a few hundred hours on them. If I get them
> : > repaired
> : > : what would be repaired? I'd get an 8130.3 from the shop with the
> : > repaired
> : > : magneto. Oh, knowledgeable ones in the group please enlighten me.
> : > :
> : > : --
> : > : John "Ebby" Ebensperger
> : > : Hatz Classic s/n37
> : > : Camden, NY
> : > :
> : > :
> : >
> : >
> : > FAR 43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.
> : > (a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form
> an
> : > aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
> : > appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless-
> : >
> : > (1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the
> : > Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned,
> : > inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and
> : >
> : > (2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and
> technical
> : > data, or in accordance with current standards
> : > and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been
> : > developed and documented by the holder of the type
> : > certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part,
> process,
> : > or appliance approval under §21.305 of this
> : > chapter.
> : >
> : > (b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form
> an
> : > aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller,
> : > appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been
> : > disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as
> : > necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits
> as a
> : > new item, using either new parts or used parts
> : > that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved
> : > oversized or undersized dimensions.
> : >
> : >
> :
> :
>
>

[Dale[_2_]]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> You can't call it an overhaul unless you perform the operation in strict
> conformance to the manufacturer's (or tc holder, or stc holder or ...)
> overhaul manual or instructions. In this case, since the manufacturer's
> manual (according to the OP) requires the replacement of ALL components,
> simply doing a points, bearings, and seal is a repair, not an overhaul.
>
> I've done about as many engines as the next guy, and I can tear that
> sucker down, replace every part in it to BETTER than new limits,
> reassemble it perfectly, and since this particular manufacturer/engine OH
> manual requires run-in in a test cell with a club prop and I don't have
> either, it is simply an expensive repair, not an overhaul.
>
> Jim
>
<snip>

Since the OP has gotten his answer, let's look at this test cell problem.

I taught at an A&P school years ago. We had a test cell, with wooden test
clubs. With some effort, we could adapt the cell to various makes and
models of engines, but it wasn't easy or always satisfactory. The test
clubs needed care and maintenance, too, just like wood props.

We also had a lot of obsolete ground power equipment driven by air-cooled
Continental and Lycoming engines of various sizes. Each one had a cooling
fan, cowl, instrumentation, and a load of some type. I toyed with the idea
of converting one or more of the rigs to serve as a test cell, but never got
around to it. There are quite a few of these still around, most with either
a bad engine or no engine at all, for little money.

For a small shop or EAA chapter, it might be worth looking into.

Dale Scroggins