Liquid oxygen equipment for glider

[Bruno Maes]

Has someone ever implemented a liquid oxygen system inside a glider?

[Tony Verhulst]

Bruno Maes wrote:
> Has someone ever implemented a liquid oxygen system inside a glider?

Of course! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perlan_Project.

Google is your friend,

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[Bill Daniels]

I looked into this seriously a few years ago. The earliest aviation O2
systems in WW1 used liquid oxygen systems. LOX has some advantage and some
serious disadvantages.

Positives:
Long duration supply for extended wave flights.
Light weight compared to compressed oxygen of comparable duration.
Small size

Negative:
Short shelf life . i.e. "use it or lose it".
Difficult support system. Essentially, LOX must be manufactured on the
gliderport for it to make sense. Such "air reduction" devices do exist for
medical LOX but they are expensive.
LOX can be dangerous for inexperienced people to handle.

The temptation is that used "wearable" medical LOX systems are available on
E-Bay cheap.

Bill Daniels


"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
...
> Bruno Maes wrote:
>> Has someone ever implemented a liquid oxygen system inside a glider?
>
> Of course! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perlan_Project.
>
> Google is your friend,
>
> Tony V.
> http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[Vaughn Simon]

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..

>
> Negative:
> Short shelf life . i.e. "use it or lose it".
> Difficult support system. Essentially, LOX must be manufactured on the
> gliderport for it to make sense. Such "air reduction" devices do exist for
> medical LOX but they are expensive.

I have a bit of experience using medical lox and the above need not be
true. Patients who use lox keep a device at home that looks a lot like at beer
keg. A guy in a truck comes around every week or two to top the "keg" off. The
oxygen can be used straight from the "keg" or transfered to a portable oxygen
system. Assuming that there were enough users to make it pay, that same truck
could come by a gliderport. Naturally, it is those portable oxygen systems that
are of prime interest to aviators. Many of them have a pulse system to conserve
oxygen and make it last even longer. I have no idea if they would be safe for
aviation use, but I think that we can safely assume that they are not built with
that in mind.

> LOX can be dangerous for inexperienced people to handle.

Yes.
>
> The temptation is that used "wearable" medical LOX systems are available on
> E-Bay cheap.

Yes. I covered that above.

Vaughn

[Ralph Jones[_2_]]

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:10:38 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
> wrote:

>
>"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
>
>>
>> Negative:
>> Short shelf life . i.e. "use it or lose it".
>> Difficult support system. Essentially, LOX must be manufactured on the
>> gliderport for it to make sense. Such "air reduction" devices do exist for
>> medical LOX but they are expensive.
>
> I have a bit of experience using medical lox and the above need not be
>true. Patients who use lox keep a device at home that looks a lot like at beer
>keg. A guy in a truck comes around every week or two to top the "keg" off. The
>oxygen can be used straight from the "keg" or transfered to a portable oxygen
>system.

I take it the capability to fill portable containers is the motivation
for using lox, as opposed to using a concentrator?

rj

[Eric Greenwell]

Bruno Maes wrote:
> Has someone ever implemented a liquid oxygen system inside a glider?

What mission do you have in mind?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[nimbus]

Not really a mission in mind but more an engineering challenge...
What equipment of small size does exist? Is it easier to use than the
classical A14 oxygen regulator or EDS?
I searched a lot on the internet for pictures, detailed schematic
etc...but found nearly nothing except very general text I can't use.
Bruno


On 24 fév, 19:12, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>
> What mission do you have in mind?
>
>

[bumper]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
news:8e%Dh.667$RN6.579@trndny07...
> Bruno Maes wrote:
>> Has someone ever implemented a liquid oxygen system inside a glider?
>
> What mission do you have in mind?
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA


Eric,

One step at a time, buddy. First we get the LOX tanks on-board, then we add
the kerosene . . .

bumper
Minden NV
QV & MKII

[Dan G]

People might be interested in the British Summit Oxygen systems,
originally designed for HA climbing - http://www.summitoxygen.com/index.php
.. It uses a cannula instead of a face mask and an electronic pulse-
dose meter system, which can supply up to 22 hours of oxygen from one
bottle.

Few climbers use Summit sets as they proved very unreliable on
Everest. The British Army and Navy rave about them, but that's
probably because the company was set up by two ex-Royal Engineers. Get
Mapping uses them in their aircraft, apparently.

Climbers instead use the simple but effective Russian Poisk system
that afaik has never had a failure, but requires many more bottles to
be carried. While the fancy design of the Summit system is unsuitable
for climbing, it's probably alright in the gentle environment of a
glider.


Dan

[Vaughn Simon]

"nimbus" > wrote in message
ups.com...
"What equipment of small size does exist?"

Medical systems can be about the size of a thermos flask, and (these days)
often include a pulse system.

Vaughn

[Vaughn Simon]

"Ralph Jones" > wrote in message
...
> I take it the capability to fill portable containers is the motivation
> for using lox, as opposed to using a concentrator?

The motivation for using lox is that oxygen systems can be much smaller and
lighter because the oxygen is in its most dense form and no high pressure tanks
are needed. This is why they are so popular for medical uses. A patient can
sling a LOX flask over a shoulder and go out for virtually all day; the same
mission with high pressure tanks would take an oxygen cart.

Vaughn

..
>
> rj

[Marc Ramsey]

Dan G wrote:
> People might be interested in the British Summit Oxygen systems,
> originally designed for HA climbing - http://www.summitoxygen.com/index.php
> . It uses a cannula instead of a face mask and an electronic pulse-
> dose meter system, which can supply up to 22 hours of oxygen from one
> bottle.

This is not a LOX system, the concept is appears to be much the same as
that used in EDS systems...

Marc

[[email protected]]

On Feb 24, 4:33 am, "Bruno Maes" <u32016@uwe> wrote:
> Has someone ever implemented a liquid oxygen system inside a glider?

The USAF Soar Eagle project in the early 80s IIRC used a LOX system in
their G103. Jim Payne could tell you all about it I suspect. I have
a copy of his Project Soar Eagle thesis document which details the
systems on this wave ship.

I don't think the Flight Level 500 project of the same time period had
a LOX system.

Matt Michael

[JS]

On Feb 24, 5:44 pm, wrote:
>
> The USAF Soar Eagle project in the early 80s IIRC used a LOX system in
> their G103. Jim Payne could tell you all about it I suspect. I have
> a copy of his Project Soar Eagle thesis document which details the
> systems on this wave ship.
>
> I don't think the Flight Level 500 project of the same time period had
> a LOX system.
>
> Matt Michael

For entertainment value...
Since Soaring Magazine refused to print the photo when it was
submitted, we need Mark Grubb to dig up and post the fantastic photo
of him (as towpilot for the day) standing in front of that G103, dead
ground squirrel in his hand (he had just run over it with a Pawnee)
while two USAF TPS pilots in pressure suits sit in the glider. A
bizarre sight. Looks like a futuristic Blackadder episode.
"Today, our in-flight meal is squirrel. Would you like it sauteed, or
fricaseed?"
It was always fun to watch the moon men come out of the Urban
Assault Vehicle, carrying porta-packs which they're hooked to until
they climb into the glider.
There's also a humorous to some, not to the pilot story from that
same project of what happens if you put those "scrunch them up and
they get warm" packets inside the boots of your space suit, which
amazingly has an atmosphere high in Oxygen. If the squirrel was in
that space suit, it would have been nicely sauteed.

Believe the DG500 "Perlan" prototype has a more modern LOX
installation. Einar would know more on that one.

Jim

[Paul Repacholi]

"bumper" > writes:

> One step at a time, buddy. First we get the LOX tanks on-board, then
> we add the kerosene . . .

You have that already. It is mixed with the glass and carbon fibre.