Modern Life

[Jay Honeck]

As we lived through our ice storm these last couple of days, it's been
interesting to note the reaction of people deprived of amenities that
didn't even exist when I was a boy.

- Guests at the hotel, deprived of cable TV, have been grudgingly
understanding -- but only because we offer DVD movies, free for the
borrowing. Without that, we'd be facing demands of refunds, I'm
certain.

- My kids, deprived of both internet and TV (danged cable modem), were
befuddled, and took refuge in reading and DVDs (once the power came
back on)...

- I found myself frustrated, knowing full-well that my 60 to 70 emails
per day were still coming in, even though I was unable to clear them
from home. (Luckily, our DSL lines at the hotel never faltered...)
And, of course, I couldn't get my daily dose of rec.aviation.

As we sat in the dark, by the light of dynamo-crank-LED lights
(something else that was science-fiction when I was a kid), I tried to
explain to my kids that this was life as my grandparents knew it
growing up -- EVERY DAY. No electricity, no phones, no TV, no radio.
This was NORMAL.

What's really amazing is how unprepared people are for these kinds of
disruptions. Mary and I have all sorts of survival and camping gear,
a good supply of drinking water and food, and enough fire wood to heat
the house for several days. Both of our primary vehicles are 4-wheel
drive, and kept in good working order.

In short, we're ready for the crap that Mother Nature throws at us
here in the Midwest.

We saw people driving sports cars into the hotel parking lots, wearing
SHORTS and sweatshirts. They had no winter gear, no warm clothing,
and were absolutely astounded to hear that Interstate 80 was closed.
They were abadoning their homes, because the power was out, and
heading to any available hotel room.

These people would literally DIE if their cars broke down, or at the
very least would have to be rescued by the State Patrol. What the
hell are they *thinking*? The Governor declares a state of
emergency, and these folks are out driving in shorts and a
sweatshirt?

And it's not just dumb people, not to that extreme. What our kids
regard as "basic living" -- computers, cell phones, internet, instant
messaging, FaceBook, XM satellite radio, Nexrad radar, 500-channels of
crap on TV -- only existed in Isaac Asimov novels when I was growing
up. To watch as they come face-to-face with the reality of life
*without* these creature comforts -- even for just a couple of days --
was enlightening, and more than a little scary.

Sure, my kids go camping, and we "rough it" for a week or so each year
-- but their daily societal expectations are so high, and the distance
those expectations fall when the power grid fails is so great -- that
I really wonder what we're doing to our kids.

This is a generation that has never seen hardship, never seen high
unemployment, never seen high interest rates, never seen wide-spread
poverty, never (despite Iraq) seen war. And their electronic
"information age" creature comforts are so entirely energy dependent,
and so ingrained in their lifestyle, that they are rendered helpless
when the power fails. Between "global warming" and soaring energy
prices, can this type of lifestyle be long sustained?

Worse, my kids have grown accustomed to being whisked across the
country in an airplane, at a moment's notice, and simply *expect*
everything to work, every day, dammit. Mary and I are trying to
instill a self-sufficient work ethic in them that will allow them to
survive in "the real world" -- but their "real world" has changed so
much in the last 20 years that it would not even be recognizable to my
grand-parents, dead only since the 1970s...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BT]

need to keep some checker boards, decks of cards, backgammon, and other
games handy
BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> As we lived through our ice storm these last couple of days, it's been
> interesting to note the reaction of people deprived of amenities that
> didn't even exist when I was a boy.
>
> - Guests at the hotel, deprived of cable TV, have been grudgingly
> understanding -- but only because we offer DVD movies, free for the
> borrowing. Without that, we'd be facing demands of refunds, I'm
> certain.
>
> - My kids, deprived of both internet and TV (danged cable modem), were
> befuddled, and took refuge in reading and DVDs (once the power came
> back on)...
>
> - I found myself frustrated, knowing full-well that my 60 to 70 emails
> per day were still coming in, even though I was unable to clear them
> from home. (Luckily, our DSL lines at the hotel never faltered...)
> And, of course, I couldn't get my daily dose of rec.aviation.
>
> As we sat in the dark, by the light of dynamo-crank-LED lights
> (something else that was science-fiction when I was a kid), I tried to
> explain to my kids that this was life as my grandparents knew it
> growing up -- EVERY DAY. No electricity, no phones, no TV, no radio.
> This was NORMAL.
>
> What's really amazing is how unprepared people are for these kinds of
> disruptions. Mary and I have all sorts of survival and camping gear,
> a good supply of drinking water and food, and enough fire wood to heat
> the house for several days. Both of our primary vehicles are 4-wheel
> drive, and kept in good working order.
>
> In short, we're ready for the crap that Mother Nature throws at us
> here in the Midwest.
>
> We saw people driving sports cars into the hotel parking lots, wearing
> SHORTS and sweatshirts. They had no winter gear, no warm clothing,
> and were absolutely astounded to hear that Interstate 80 was closed.
> They were abadoning their homes, because the power was out, and
> heading to any available hotel room.
>
> These people would literally DIE if their cars broke down, or at the
> very least would have to be rescued by the State Patrol. What the
> hell are they *thinking*? The Governor declares a state of
> emergency, and these folks are out driving in shorts and a
> sweatshirt?
>
> And it's not just dumb people, not to that extreme. What our kids
> regard as "basic living" -- computers, cell phones, internet, instant
> messaging, FaceBook, XM satellite radio, Nexrad radar, 500-channels of
> crap on TV -- only existed in Isaac Asimov novels when I was growing
> up. To watch as they come face-to-face with the reality of life
> *without* these creature comforts -- even for just a couple of days --
> was enlightening, and more than a little scary.
>
> Sure, my kids go camping, and we "rough it" for a week or so each year
> -- but their daily societal expectations are so high, and the distance
> those expectations fall when the power grid fails is so great -- that
> I really wonder what we're doing to our kids.
>
> This is a generation that has never seen hardship, never seen high
> unemployment, never seen high interest rates, never seen wide-spread
> poverty, never (despite Iraq) seen war. And their electronic
> "information age" creature comforts are so entirely energy dependent,
> and so ingrained in their lifestyle, that they are rendered helpless
> when the power fails. Between "global warming" and soaring energy
> prices, can this type of lifestyle be long sustained?
>
> Worse, my kids have grown accustomed to being whisked across the
> country in an airplane, at a moment's notice, and simply *expect*
> everything to work, every day, dammit. Mary and I are trying to
> instill a self-sufficient work ethic in them that will allow them to
> survive in "the real world" -- but their "real world" has changed so
> much in the last 20 years that it would not even be recognizable to my
> grand-parents, dead only since the 1970s...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jose]

> As we lived through our ice storm these last couple of days, it's been
> interesting to note the reaction of people deprived of amenities that
> didn't even exist when I was a boy...

Apropos of this... (required aviation content, we flew there in the
Dakota, and the friend's house we were visiting was just off the
approach end of the runway)

We took a trip down South, and toured the plantations and such. Now we
live in a house, but it's "just" a house. There's some land, but not a
lot of it. These people lived on acres and acres, and had ten or twenty
=buildings= on their property. This is wealth - a style of living to
which I am unaccustomed.

Or is it?

One of the buildings is basically a very cleverly designed earth
refrigerator. Another is to hold the sheep shearings until they can be
made into cloth. Another is... it goes on and on like this. These
people were self-sufficient, whereas we depend on electricity to run our
refrigerators, we go to the store to buy milk pre-packaged in boxes,
clothing that has already been made and fitted (let alone cloth that
doesn't have to be woven), drive to the gas station to fill up our cars
(which we need to go to the store to buy soap, which we need to buy
because we don't raise our own pigs...) and so forth. Yes, they were
self-sufficient, but they needed acres and acres to do it, and they
needed a staff, composed of slaves or not, but still a rather
significant staff to run the household.

Civilization and its infrastructure has allowed us to do the same thing
with far less land, and far less labor. The result is that we depend on
the infrastructure in ways that would be unthinkable years ago.

Consider that a snowfall can paralyze a city and bring intercontenental
travel to a halt. In the seventeen hundreds, people just walked in the
snow. But we have built an infrastructure of incredible efficiency
(compared to the 1700s), which depends on their not being snow (which is
the case, most of the time).

> No electricity, no phones, no TV, no radio.
> This was NORMAL.

.... and the expectations were built around this. Civilization,
technology, and infrastructure are a house of cards. They allow many
more people to live well, when everything goes well. But it takes far
less to disrupt it than it did in the past.

One earthquake in the right spot could destroy a modern city. Ten
people running naked backwards through airport security could shut down
international travel. This would not have happened three hundred years
ago. The city would be rebuilt in about two weeks, and there was no
international travel to speak of.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Open an exercise room, with shovels. It is good exercise.

Yep, most of these people would die in a heart beat, and
that includes the pilots who go x-c without basic survival
supplies, summer or winter; you need clothes, boots, water
and maybe food.
But they are expecting the government to save them from the
mountain, the river or the blizzard.

They are shocked that diseases kill people, AIDS ruined the
sexual revolution for them.


"BT" > wrote in message
...
| need to keep some checker boards, decks of cards,
backgammon, and other
| games handy
| BT
|
| "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| > As we lived through our ice storm these last couple of
days, it's been
| > interesting to note the reaction of people deprived of
amenities that
| > didn't even exist when I was a boy.
| >
| > - Guests at the hotel, deprived of cable TV, have been
grudgingly
| > understanding -- but only because we offer DVD movies,
free for the
| > borrowing. Without that, we'd be facing demands of
refunds, I'm
| > certain.
| >
| > - My kids, deprived of both internet and TV (danged
cable modem), were
| > befuddled, and took refuge in reading and DVDs (once the
power came
| > back on)...
| >
| > - I found myself frustrated, knowing full-well that my
60 to 70 emails
| > per day were still coming in, even though I was unable
to clear them
| > from home. (Luckily, our DSL lines at the hotel never
faltered...)
| > And, of course, I couldn't get my daily dose of
rec.aviation.
| >
| > As we sat in the dark, by the light of dynamo-crank-LED
lights
| > (something else that was science-fiction when I was a
kid), I tried to
| > explain to my kids that this was life as my grandparents
knew it
| > growing up -- EVERY DAY. No electricity, no phones, no
TV, no radio.
| > This was NORMAL.
| >
| > What's really amazing is how unprepared people are for
these kinds of
| > disruptions. Mary and I have all sorts of survival and
camping gear,
| > a good supply of drinking water and food, and enough
fire wood to heat
| > the house for several days. Both of our primary
vehicles are 4-wheel
| > drive, and kept in good working order.
| >
| > In short, we're ready for the crap that Mother Nature
throws at us
| > here in the Midwest.
| >
| > We saw people driving sports cars into the hotel parking
lots, wearing
| > SHORTS and sweatshirts. They had no winter gear, no
warm clothing,
| > and were absolutely astounded to hear that Interstate 80
was closed.
| > They were abadoning their homes, because the power was
out, and
| > heading to any available hotel room.
| >
| > These people would literally DIE if their cars broke
down, or at the
| > very least would have to be rescued by the State Patrol.
What the
| > hell are they *thinking*? The Governor declares a
state of
| > emergency, and these folks are out driving in shorts and
a
| > sweatshirt?
| >
| > And it's not just dumb people, not to that extreme. What
our kids
| > regard as "basic living" -- computers, cell phones,
internet, instant
| > messaging, FaceBook, XM satellite radio, Nexrad radar,
500-channels of
| > crap on TV -- only existed in Isaac Asimov novels when I
was growing
| > up. To watch as they come face-to-face with the reality
of life
| > *without* these creature comforts -- even for just a
couple of days --
| > was enlightening, and more than a little scary.
| >
| > Sure, my kids go camping, and we "rough it" for a week
or so each year
| > -- but their daily societal expectations are so high,
and the distance
| > those expectations fall when the power grid fails is so
great -- that
| > I really wonder what we're doing to our kids.
| >
| > This is a generation that has never seen hardship, never
seen high
| > unemployment, never seen high interest rates, never seen
wide-spread
| > poverty, never (despite Iraq) seen war. And their
electronic
| > "information age" creature comforts are so entirely
energy dependent,
| > and so ingrained in their lifestyle, that they are
rendered helpless
| > when the power fails. Between "global warming" and
soaring energy
| > prices, can this type of lifestyle be long sustained?
| >
| > Worse, my kids have grown accustomed to being whisked
across the
| > country in an airplane, at a moment's notice, and simply
*expect*
| > everything to work, every day, dammit. Mary and I are
trying to
| > instill a self-sufficient work ethic in them that will
allow them to
| > survive in "the real world" -- but their "real world"
has changed so
| > much in the last 20 years that it would not even be
recognizable to my
| > grand-parents, dead only since the 1970s...
| > --
| > Jay Honeck
| > Iowa City, IA
| > Pathfinder N56993
| > www.AlexisParkInn.com
| > "Your Aviation Destination"
| >
|
|

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Feb 25, 10:01 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> As we lived through our ice storm these last couple of days, it's been
> interesting to note the reaction of people deprived of amenities that
> didn't even exist when I was a boy.
>
> - Guests at the hotel, deprived of cable TV, have been grudgingly
> understanding -- but only because we offer DVD movies, free for the
> borrowing. Without that, we'd be facing demands of refunds, I'm
> certain.
>
> - My kids, deprived of both internet and TV (danged cable modem), were
> befuddled, and took refuge in reading and DVDs (once the power came
> back on)...
>
> - I found myself frustrated, knowing full-well that my 60 to 70 emails
> per day were still coming in, even though I was unable to clear them
> from home. (Luckily, our DSL lines at the hotel never faltered...)
> And, of course, I couldn't get my daily dose of rec.aviation.
>
> As we sat in the dark, by the light of dynamo-crank-LED lights
> (something else that was science-fiction when I was a kid), I tried to
> explain to my kids that this was life as my grandparents knew it
> growing up -- EVERY DAY. No electricity, no phones, no TV, no radio.
> This was NORMAL.
>
> What's really amazing is how unprepared people are for these kinds of
> disruptions. Mary and I have all sorts of survival and camping gear,
> a good supply of drinking water and food, and enough fire wood to heat
> the house for several days. Both of our primary vehicles are 4-wheel
> drive, and kept in good working order.
>
> In short, we're ready for the crap that Mother Nature throws at us
> here in the Midwest.
>
> We saw people driving sports cars into the hotel parking lots, wearing
> SHORTS and sweatshirts. They had no winter gear, no warm clothing,
> and were absolutely astounded to hear that Interstate 80 was closed.
> They were abadoning their homes, because the power was out, and
> heading to any available hotel room.
>
> These people would literally DIE if their cars broke down, or at the
> very least would have to be rescued by the State Patrol. What the
> hell are they *thinking*? The Governor declares a state of
> emergency, and these folks are out driving in shorts and a
> sweatshirt?
>
> And it's not just dumb people, not to that extreme. What our kids
> regard as "basic living" -- computers, cell phones, internet, instant
> messaging, FaceBook, XM satellite radio, Nexrad radar, 500-channels of
> crap on TV -- only existed in Isaac Asimov novels when I was growing
> up. To watch as they come face-to-face with the reality of life
> *without* these creature comforts -- even for just a couple of days --
> was enlightening, and more than a little scary.
>
> Sure, my kids go camping, and we "rough it" for a week or so each year
> -- but their daily societal expectations are so high, and the distance
> those expectations fall when the power grid fails is so great -- that
> I really wonder what we're doing to our kids.
>
> This is a generation that has never seen hardship, never seen high
> unemployment, never seen high interest rates, never seen wide-spread
> poverty, never (despite Iraq) seen war. And their electronic
> "information age" creature comforts are so entirely energy dependent,
> and so ingrained in their lifestyle, that they are rendered helpless
> when the power fails. Between "global warming" and soaring energy
> prices, can this type of lifestyle be long sustained?
>
> Worse, my kids have grown accustomed to being whisked across the
> country in an airplane, at a moment's notice, and simply *expect*
> everything to work, every day, dammit. Mary and I are trying to
> instill a self-sufficient work ethic in them that will allow them to
> survive in "the real world" -- but their "real world" has changed so
> much in the last 20 years that it would not even be recognizable to my
> grand-parents, dead only since the 1970s...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


You might disagree with me, but I see all this as human progress. With
progress comes expectations, for better or for worse. The reason
people expect electricity, phones and heating to never fail is
because, well, they almost never fail. This enables them to focus
their energy on things other than basic survival matters.

Then again, your great^3 grandparents might have considered your
great^2 grandparents to be 'spoiled' because they bought their food at
the store instead of growing it themselves. What would they eat if
there were no stores for miles, and the horse was sick?

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> This is a generation that has never seen hardship, never seen high
> unemployment, never seen high interest rates, never seen wide-spread
> poverty, never (despite Iraq) seen war.

There are a lot of kids (and adults) in the United States seeing hardship and
high unemployment. They just don't happen to be yours. The middle class is
disappearing in the United States.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Tom Conner]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
exist when I was a boy.
>
> - Guests at the hotel, deprived of cable TV, have been
> grudgingly understanding -- but only because we offer DVD
> movies, free for the borrowing. Without that, we'd be facing
> demands of refunds, I'm certain.
>
> - My kids, deprived of both internet and TV (danged cable
> modem), were befuddled, and took refuge in reading and DVDs
> (once the power came back on)...
>

Nobody wanted to fly the Kiwi?

[Kev]

On Feb 25, 10:01 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> What's really amazing is how unprepared people are for these kinds of
> disruptions. [...]

Heh. And businesses, too. Whenever a storm knocks out power, it's
ridiculous to be standing in line at the local grocery store, because
there's nothing anyone can do without modern price scanners. (If
they had the price attached, as in the old days, then you could make
do, of course.)

As for our home, I'll always keep regular phone service and an old
Princess phone to connect with. It's amazing how many of our
neighbors have cable phones and lose all comms during power (or just
cable) outages. During the big blackout, even cell towers ran out of
juice. And even those with a regular phone, often only have cordless
phones which won't work without power!

Kev

[Mxsmanic]

Kev writes:

> As for our home, I'll always keep regular phone service and an old
> Princess phone to connect with. It's amazing how many of our
> neighbors have cable phones and lose all comms during power (or just
> cable) outages. During the big blackout, even cell towers ran out of
> juice. And even those with a regular phone, often only have cordless
> phones which won't work without power!

Note that both systems depend on electricity, it's just that the telephone
company has different notions of "reliable service" than the cable company.

I used to have cable outages several times a week, and even today, cable
service is often very unreliable. In contrast, the U.S. telephone system was
designed for 2 hours of downtime in _40 years_, and it actually achieves this.
Both systems use similar technology, but the management philosophies are very
different.

This is one reason why I have ADSL through my telephone company, instead of a
cable modem or broadband through a non-telecom provider. The telephone system
is always up and running.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Nomen Nescio writes:

> I thought the "one reason" was that somebody else paid for it.

You thought wrong.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Honeck]

> There are a lot of kids (and adults) in the United States seeing hardship and
> high unemployment. They just don't happen to be yours. The middle class is
> disappearing in the United States.

No, there are a lot of uneducated parents (who were themselves raised
by substandard parents) raising kids who are seeing hardship and high
unemployment. Many of these kids are being raised in broken homes by
single parents. Counter-intuitively, nowadays many are single parents
by choice, despite single-parenthood being the single most reliable
predicter of poverty.

It's sad, but it's no one's fault -- and I refuse to feel guilty about
it.

America is full of opportunities for those who wish to take advantage
of them. No one here needs to suffer -- and the vast majority do not.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > - My kids, deprived of both internet and TV (danged cable
> > modem), were befuddled, and took refuge in reading and DVDs
> > (once the power came back on)...
>
> Nobody wanted to fly the Kiwi?

The Kiwi is at the hotel. We were at home.

Thankfully, other than a few blinks, we never lost power at the hotel.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gene Seibel]

On Feb 25, 9:01 pm, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> As we lived through our ice storm these last couple of days, it's been
> interesting to note the reaction of people deprived of amenities that
> didn't even exist when I was a boy.
>
> Worse, my kids have grown accustomed to being whisked across the
> country in an airplane, at a moment's notice, and simply *expect*
> everything to work, every day, dammit. Mary and I are trying to
> instill a self-sufficient work ethic in them that will allow them to
> survive in "the real world" -- but their "real world" has changed so
> much in the last 20 years that it would not even be recognizable to my
> grand-parents, dead only since the 1970s...

One only needs to look at New Orleans to see how unprepared people are
to survive in the real world. Most expect their lifestyle to be
guarenteed.
--
Gene Seibel
The Farm - http://pad39a.com/gene/farm.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:23:41 +0000, Jose wrote:

> Consider that a snowfall can paralyze a city and bring intercontenental
> travel to a halt. In the seventeen hundreds, people just walked in the
> snow.

Thanks; I love the irony of these two sentences together. In centuries
past, people did travel between continents. But it was not the triviality
it's become today (even including the claimed security at our commercial
airports {8^).

Sure we've a lot more to lose from infrastructure failures today, but
that's only because our infrastructure provides so much more than it did
in centuries past.

All in all, I'm glad for that. It's rather like GA, if you look at it
from the proper perspective (and perhaps squint a bit {8^). I have to
prepare for various failure modes (from engine failure to a closed
airport) that are non-issues for our ground-bound kin. But we still
choose to fly.

It's wealth. We've more to lose by having it, but I'm still happy to have
it.

[...]
> The city would be rebuilt in about two weeks

I'm trying to picture this, and I cannot quite. Two weeks to rebuild 1707
NYC or Philadelphia or London?

- Andrew

[Jay Honeck]

> It's wealth. We've more to lose by having it, but I'm still happy to have
> it.

Well put. But I worry that all this wealth has made our kids so soft
that they'll never survive the hardships to come. Between soaring
energy prices, and believers in "global warming" advocating
deconstruction of our economies -- by force, if necessary -- I worry
for our kids' future.

There are so many ironies here. Just think...who would *ever* have
believed that President Jimmy Carter's decision to come out against
building more nuclear power plants would have the long-ranging
ramifications we (and our children) must now face? Who would *ever*
have guessed that one of our most "green" presidents -- a nuclear
engineer, by trade -- would bear the lion's share of blame for "global
warming", if it truly exists?

History, and the interpretation of history in the years after an
event, always has a way of surprising us...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> I'm trying to picture this, and I cannot quite. Two weeks to rebuild 1707
> NYC or Philadelphia or London?

Ok, maybe three weeks. :) My point is that there was much less city to
re-build.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:22:35 +0000, Jose wrote:

>> I'm trying to picture this, and I cannot quite. Two weeks to rebuild
>> 1707 NYC or Philadelphia or London?
>
> Ok, maybe three weeks. :)

Oh, sure: Three weeks. Okay, then. But not two.

<Laugh>

> My point is that there was much less city to
> re-build.

True, but we've also better tools for building. Nail guns and power saws
vs. hand tools and such, not to mention cranes, bulldozers, etc.

But cities were definitely smaller (and lower) Back Then.

- Andrew

[Mxsmanic]

Gene Seibel writes:

> One only needs to look at New Orleans to see how unprepared people are
> to survive in the real world. Most expect their lifestyle to be
> guarenteed.

The real world is the one with the infrastructure. A city without
infrastructure is the anomaly, not the rule.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:03:43 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote:

>> It's wealth. We've more to lose by having it, but I'm still happy to
>> have it.
>
> Well put. But I worry that all this wealth has made our kids so soft that
> they'll never survive the hardships to come. Between soaring energy
> prices, and believers in "global warming" advocating deconstruction of our
> economies -- by force, if necessary -- I worry for our kids' future.

Don't forget about Apophis, with whom we've a possible date in 2036.

- Andrew

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> As we lived through our ice storm these last couple of days, it's been
> interesting to note the reaction of people deprived of amenities that
> didn't even exist when I was a boy.
>


My sister has three boys - pre school through mid elementary - their power
went out for a couple of days - no big deal, go into camping mode. Anyhow,
my sister comes home one evening (dad is home with the boys) and notices as
she drives down the street that the power has been restored. Except, that
is, for her house - it's the only one still dark. She comes in, not real
happy, asking why everyone else has power and we don't. Her husband
shusshes her and said that the power was actually back on, but the boy were
so dissapointed that he went down the basement and pulled the main...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Jim B]

Genius. They will remember that for a long time. Hopefully they will do
the same with their kids one day. A truly great "Grandpa" story in the
making.
Jim

[Peter Dohm]

>
> We saw people driving sports cars into the hotel parking lots, wearing
> SHORTS and sweatshirts. They had no winter gear, no warm clothing,
> and were absolutely astounded to hear that Interstate 80 was closed.
> They were abadoning their homes, because the power was out, and
> heading to any available hotel room.
>
This reminds me that huge traffic jams on I-81 were in last week's news.
The problem was all the cars that couldn't climb the steeper hills due to
the reduced traction on the snow...

I wasn't going to comment, especially since it is off topic for the group,
but it caused me to remember what my sister told me roughly twenty years
ago. She was studying at a university in a hilly and occasionally snowy
area, and the main road into the campus led up a moderately steep (5 to 7%)
hill approximately 1/4 mile in length just after turning into the campus.
Of course, the end of the Christmas break was the fresh snow season.

When the parents would arive, and it had snowed, most could not get enough
traction to drive their cars up the hill. However, the university always
came to the rescue by having the Campus Police, using specially equipped
vehicles, push the otherwise stranded vehicles up the hill.

(I really should make all of you scroll down to read this...)

The specially equipped vehicles were the same plain old Ford sedans used for
routine year round patrol--with plain old tire chains on the rear wheels.

It is with GREAT effort that I am refraining from a political rant!

Peter

[Jose]

> with plain old tire chains on the rear wheels.

Tire chains (and studs) are banned in many places because of the damage
they do to roads. They are not as necessary as they used to be because
of better snow tire and all-weather tire design.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Andrew Gideon"> wrote

> I'm trying to picture this, and I cannot quite. Two weeks to rebuild 1707
> NYC or Philadelphia or London?

Yeah, I'm still chuckling about that one, too. Even a city of a tenth of
the size of one of those! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> Tire chains (and studs) are banned in many places because of the damage
> they do to roads. They are not as necessary as they used to be because
> of better snow tire and all-weather tire design.

Thank goodness they banned studded tires. I remember Wisconsin's
interstate system in the 1970s being nearly destroyed by all the guys
with studded tires. The lanes actually had 1/2-inch deep grooves worn
in them, from the studs ripping up the concrete and asphalt. It got
down to the rebar, in spots.

That little fiasco cost the taxpayer's billions...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kingfish]

On Feb 26, 4:47 pm, Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> > Well put. But I worry that all this wealth has made our kids so soft that
> > they'll never survive the hardships to come. Between soaring energy
> > prices, and believers in "global warming" advocating deconstruction of our
> > economies -- by force, if necessary -- I worry for our kids' future.
>
> Don't forget about Apophis, with whom we've a possible date in 2036.
>

And the Apocalypse.. What's the latest date for that again?? And the
Rapture, and the End Times, and SkyNet coming online...

Geez, a guy could get really bummed out with all this stuff supposed
to happen - but I can go peacefully now that Scorcese finally won his
Oscar <G>

[Montblack]

("Kingfish" wrote)
> Geez, a guy could get really bummed out with all this stuff supposed to
> happen - but I can go peacefully now that Scorcese finally won his Oscar
> <G>


Which was odd, since 2008 is The Year of the Rat. :-)

Best line in the whole movie:
'Is that really his name, Mr French?'

Mark Wahlberg as Dignam:
"...#$%^&*#$%^&*#$%^&*#$%^&*. #$%^ #$%^&* #%^..."


Montblack
The Departed (2006)

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Tire chains (and studs) are banned in many places because of the damage
>>they do to roads. They are not as necessary as they used to be because
>>of better snow tire and all-weather tire design.
>
>
> Thank goodness they banned studded tires. I remember Wisconsin's
> interstate system in the 1970s being nearly destroyed by all the guys
> with studded tires. The lanes actually had 1/2-inch deep grooves worn
> in them, from the studs ripping up the concrete and asphalt. It got
> down to the rebar, in spots.

Interesting as I've never seen an interstate concrete highway that used
rebar... The only metal in most highways is the row of pins used to
lock the sections together at the expansion joints.

Matt

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Matt Whiting" <> wrote >
> Interesting as I've never seen an interstate concrete highway that used
> rebar... The only metal in most highways is the row of pins used to lock
> the sections together at the expansion joints.

The type of concrete highway design varies from un-reinforced slabs with
doweled joints, to rebar reinforced slabs with doweled joints, to welded
wire mesh with doweled joints, to continuous slab reinforced with welded
wire mesh or rebar, or continuous rebar and welded wire mesh.

I have seen older concrete torn up in Columbus Ohio, with tons of rebar, and
recycled into new concrete. I have seen welded wire mesh placed too close
to the surface, and the top layers of concrete worn or spalled (cracked and
flaking) off, and the wire visible.

How the concrete roads were constructed varies partly by region and design
needs, (like cold) and partly by what was thought to be the best method, at
the time.

I suspect that what was seen by the earlier poster was 6 x 6 inch welded
wire mesh. Rebar (in sizes from 5/8" and up) should be placed much deeper
in the pour, and usually stays put, whereas the mesh can easily be misplaced
too close to the surface.

I will not discount the studs and chains accelerating the breakdown of the
concrete, but wire mesh being exposed is in large part due to other forces
breaking down the concrete, and improper mesh placement.

Just my opinions and observations.
--
Jim in NC

[Blanche]

Kingfish > wrote:
>On Feb 26, 4:47 pm, Andrew Gideon > wrote:
>
>> > Well put. But I worry that all this wealth has made our kids so soft that
>> > they'll never survive the hardships to come. Between soaring energy
>> > prices, and believers in "global warming" advocating deconstruction of our
>> > economies -- by force, if necessary -- I worry for our kids' future.
>>
>> Don't forget about Apophis, with whom we've a possible date in 2036.
>>
>
>And the Apocalypse.. What's the latest date for that again?? And the
>Rapture, and the End Times, and SkyNet coming online...
>
>Geez, a guy could get really bummed out with all this stuff supposed
>to happen - but I can go peacefully now that Scorcese finally won his
>Oscar <G>

I'm still waiting for the Dodgers to Return Triumphant to Brooklyn.
Only then, all will be right with the world.

(living in Colorado - we *know* how weather can shut down the entire
transportation infrasture)

[Blanche]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
[sorry, missed OP on this paragraph]
>> There are a lot of kids (and adults) in the United States seeing hardship and
>> high unemployment. They just don't happen to be yours. The middle class is
>> disappearing in the United States.

[back to Jay]
>No, there are a lot of uneducated parents (who were themselves raised
>by substandard parents) raising kids who are seeing hardship and high
>unemployment. Many of these kids are being raised in broken homes by
>single parents. Counter-intuitively, nowadays many are single parents
>by choice, despite single-parenthood being the single most reliable
>predicter of poverty.

I would like to point out that in the Denver area, when teenagers
are looking for a summer or part-time job now, they are asked if
they are bi-lingual in english and spanish.

>America is full of opportunities for those who wish to take advantage
>of them. No one here needs to suffer -- and the vast majority do not.