Slingsby T-21

[Nyal Williams]

Does anyone in the US have/fly one of these gliders?

[Frank Whiteley]

On Feb 27, 2:03 pm, Nyal Williams
> wrote:
> Does anyone in the US have/fly one of these gliders?

Looks like someone owns two.

Frank

N-number : N7013A
Aircraft Serial Number : 1971
Aircraft Manufacturer : SLINGSBY
Model : TYPE 21B SEDBERGH
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : BYARD JEFFERY G
Owner Address : 13555 EL CAMINO REAL
ATASCADERO, CA, 93422
Type of Owner : Individual
Registration Date : 22-Nov-1993
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Not Specified


N-number : N9048U
Aircraft Serial Number : WB947
Aircraft Manufacturer : SLINGSBY
Model : TYPE 21B SEDBERGH
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : CLOSSON LUKE
Owner Address : 604 GORNTO RD
VALDOSTA, GA, 31602
Type of Owner : Individual
Registration Date : 25-Jun-1987
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : Racing


N-number : N9049V
Aircraft Serial Number : WB972
Aircraft Manufacturer : SLINGSBY
Model : TYPE 21B SEDBERGH
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : DINUCCI GINO
Owner Address : 706 LOWELL RD
UNIONDALE, NY, 11553
Type of Owner : Individual
Registration Date : 25-Jun-1987
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : Exhibition


N-number : N90492
Aircraft Serial Number : WG497
Aircraft Manufacturer : SLINGSBY
Model : TYPE 21B SEDBERGH
Aircraft Year : 1951
Owner Name : CLOSSON LUKE
Owner Address : 604 GORNTO RD
VALDOSTA, GA, 31602
Type of Owner : Individual
Registration Date : 25-Jun-1987
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : Exhibition


N-number : N941WB
Aircraft Serial Number : WB941
Aircraft Manufacturer : SLINGSBY
Model : TYPE 21B SEDBERGH
Aircraft Year : 1949
Owner Name : U S SOUTHWEST SOARING MUSEUM INC
Owner Address : PO BOX 3626
MORIARTY, NM, 87035-3626
Type of Owner : Corporation
Registration Date : 07-Sep-2005
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : Racing

[John Wilton]

> Approved Operations : Racing


????????

[AAGF]

Nyal Williams wrote:
> Does anyone in the US have/fly one of these gliders?
>
Probably - I solo'ed in a T21b back in the 70's at Portmoak in Scotland
- they were a good (unstallable, unspinnable) trainer in their time.

Andy

[David]

I believe they have one at Texas Soaring Association. I too soloed in
a T-21, at RAF Bicester in the early 70's. As I recall it could at
least start to spin, as spin recovery training i.e. use the rudder not
the ailerons was part of the check out for solo. That solo was off of
the winch and lasted for all of 4 minutes. I still remember it
vividly.

David Martin

[W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).]

Unstallable !? Unspinnable !?

I don't think so.

I was trained in them to solo standard at the London Gliding Club, Dunstable
in 1963.

The two I flew would do a classic stall with nose drop and lateral
instability. We did not have enough height to let the spin develop, and
recovery was immediate when the correct control movements were made.

In fact I think that for teaching those two particular exercises to early
pre-solo pupils they are better than any two-seat glider I have flown since.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.

>"AAGF" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> Probably - I solo'ed in a T21b back in the 70's at Portmoak in Scotland -
> they were a good (unstallable, unspinnable) trainer in their time.
>
> Andy

[Tony Verhulst]

AAGF wrote:

> .....I solo'ed in a T21b back in the 70's at Portmoak in Scotland
> - they were a good (unstallable, unspinnable) trainer in their time.

I WANT trainers to be stallable/spinable. A student will advance to
gliders that can (and will) and I want them to know how to deal with it.
You understand that this is a religious war :-).

Tony V.

[Mark Wright]

At 22:06 27 February 2007, Aagf wrote:
>Nyal Williams wrote:
>- they were unstallable, unspinnable

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please tell me you are not an instructor !

[Nyal Williams]

At 10:36 28 February 2007, Mark Wright wrote:
>At 22:06 27 February 2007, Aagf wrote:
>>Nyal Williams wrote:
>>- they were unstallable, unspinnable
>
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Please tell me you are not an instructor !
>


I AM an instructor, but I did not write that comment.
I merely asked if there were any of these in the US.

You have miscopied, or mis-deleted and it makes it
appear as if I made that comment. I do teach stalls
and spins.

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Mark Wright wrote:

> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Please tell me you are not an instructor !

Oh, some eleventy-one-one bang bang histrionics, eh? That's so we know
you're contributing to a deliberate and sober discussion?

Wait - that's right, it's RAS. Carry on.

Bob K.

[AAGF]

Tony Verhulst wrote:
> AAGF wrote:
>
>> .....I solo'ed in a T21b back in the 70's at Portmoak in Scotland -
>> they were a good (unstallable, unspinnable) trainer in their time.
>
> I WANT trainers to be stallable/spinable. A student will advance to
> gliders that can (and will) and I want them to know how to deal with it.
> You understand that this is a religious war :-).
>
> Tony V.

Ok Tony - religious war it will be! :*)

Seriously, our T21 would simply mush as speed decreased. Get it high
enough, apply some speed and pull up - cross controls and it would fall
off to side and NOT spin! I was spin-trained in a K13, a Capstan
(T53?)and a Bocian. I enjoyed spins.

Andy

[Tony Verhulst]

> ..our T21 would simply mush as speed decreased. Get it high
> enough, apply some speed and pull up - cross controls and it would fall
> off to side and NOT spin! I was spin-trained in a K13, a Capstan
> (T53?)and a Bocian. I enjoyed spins.

This is good, I think. If a club has the luxury, maybe some docile
"unspinnable" trainers for the first few solo flights and then some
others for stall/spin training. If I could only have one trainer, I
would want one that will spin. I spin every student before they solo.

Tony V. LS6-b "6N"
PS. spins ARE fun.

[Bill Daniels]

"Tony Verhulst" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>> ..our T21 would simply mush as speed decreased. Get it high enough, apply
>> some speed and pull up - cross controls and it would fall off to side and
>> NOT spin! I was spin-trained in a K13, a Capstan (T53?)and a Bocian. I
>> enjoyed spins.
>
> This is good, I think. If a club has the luxury, maybe some docile
> "unspinnable" trainers for the first few solo flights and then some others
> for stall/spin training. If I could only have one trainer, I would want
> one that will spin. I spin every student before they solo.
>
> Tony V. LS6-b "6N"
> PS. spins ARE fun.
>

This is an endlessly debatable subject.

"Primacy of Learning" is a tricky thing. No matter how hard an instructor
works at it, the student will learn how his primary trainer behaves.
Later, in a real emergency when panic sets in, he will expect whatever
glider he is flying to behave as his first glider experiences in a spin
resistant trainer taught him it would. That may be a bad thing. Later spin
training may not be enough to overcome unsafe techniques learned in a highly
spin resistant primary trainer. I think it's fair to say that at least some
spin accidents in high performance gliders are due to this.

Of course, there's another side. Spinnable trainers require that students
be trained to a higher standard before solo - which is mostly a good thing.
However, some slow learning students will give up before learning the skills
to safely solo a spinnable trainer. Maybe it's better to lose them as they
walk away from primary training than later when they spin in a high
performance glider.

I vote for spinnable primary trainers that more nearly teach the behaviors
that the student will see in gliders he will fly later.

Bill Daniels

[Vaughn Simon]

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
>
> I vote for spinnable primary trainers that more nearly teach the behaviors
> that the student will see in gliders he will fly later.

Yes, primacy of learning is important, but what we want to avoid at all
costs is dead (or even slightly injured) students. "Spinnable" need not mean
"spin prone".

Vaughn

[Sally W]

At 22:06 27 February 2007, Aagf wrote:
>Nyal Williams wrote:
>> Does anyone in the US have/fly one of these gliders?
>>
>Probably - I solo'ed in a T21b back in the 70's at
>Portmoak in Scotland
>- they were a good (unstallable, unspinnable) trainer
>in their time.

I wonder if that was the same one that's there now?
But unspinnable? I'm not so sure about that. That
does apply to the K21s with most crews in though, given
most of us are towards the upper end of the weight
limit.